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Who takes it?

They battle in a neutral environment, where both their powers work.

Who takes it?

Debate.

Originally posted by Sentry
Who takes it?

They battle in a neutral environment, where both their powers work.

Who takes it?

Debate.
Which abstracts name a few?

Eternity. Infinity, Oblivion, Death

Originally posted by Sentry
Eternity. Infinity, Oblivion, Death
abstracts win , tho the endless are also abstract , but they haven't done much

Well, we cant really tell though, since we havent seen much of the Endless to actually gauge them. Dream is the only member of it who was introduced to us in detail. And by reading Sandman, you can tell that he's pretty powerful. He didnt just wipe out an entire race, but he wiped them out in a way that they never existed in the first place. And he's not even the strongest of them, it was implied that Destiny and Death are stronger than him and Desire, Despair, Delirium and Destruction are below but very close to him in power.

But as I said, we rarely see his brothers and sisters, so I think, currently, its impossible to pick the winners of this match.

The Endless are likely more powerful than Pantheonic Gods (Odin, Bast and such...) but still less powerful than regular angels, not to mention Michael and Lucifer.

I wouldnt say that theyre less powerful than regular angels, theyre most likely more powerful than them, Death for example, still holds power over them. Lucifer and Michael, yes I agree with you on that.

morpheus has been shown to be afraid of lucifer, but lucifer has been shown to respect morpheus (dream) as well. dream also managed to outwit lucifer and earned lucifer's enmity. the endless are enormously powerful, but they don't wield their power like the other 'abstracts' in this fight. i agree with synchro - too hard to tell.

Originally posted by leonidas
morpheus has been shown to be afraid of lucifer, but lucifer has been shown to respect morpheus (dream) as well. dream also managed to outwit lucifer and earned lucifer's enmity. the endless are enormously powerful, but they don't wield their power like the other 'abstracts' in this fight. i agree with synchro - too hard to tell.
If we go what they have done etc it will be hard to compare to someone like Eternity who can do virtually anything, and is everything

And remember Abstract there are like 20 of them each with its own field of power.

Some are even Multiversal

From what the endless has done I don’t see them winning

The endless and abstracts would not be interested, more than likely they would both have a chat. They are very similar after all.

Except that Endless are more humane...at least Death.

very true, death always reminded me of Tori Amos who did the foreward strangely for the sandman text stories book. Coincidence? Me not think so!

I'd say the Endless take this one.

it really is impossible to say. the endless don't operate like this - ie they don't run out and battle, so they are not shown in these situations. you could take kg's stance and say abstracts win because endless haven't done anything, but that's kind of a nonsensical/ignorant (sorry, kg) position - just because they HAVEN'T doesn't mean they can't. and what's worse for this thread: they likely WON'T be shown doing the things that would warrant this kind of comparison. as i said, they're not written like that - and frankly, that's just the way i like it. not every abstract needs to be SHOWN obliterating a universe - if they are written well enough, certain things can be inferred. and if you know the endless, you know they are massively powerful - whether you've witnessed 'feats' or not.

Originally posted by leonidas
it really is impossible to say. the endless don't operate like this - ie they don't run out and battle, so they are not shown in these situations. you could take kg's stance and say abstracts win because endless haven't done anything, but that's kind of a nonsensical/ignorant (sorry, kg) position - just because they HAVEN'T doesn't mean they can't. and what's worse for this thread: they likely WON'T be shown doing the things that would warrant this kind of comparison. as i said, they're not written like that - and frankly, that's just the way i like it. not every abstract needs to be SHOWN obliterating a universe - if they are written well enough, certain things can be inferred. and if you know the endless, you know they are massively powerful - whether you've witnessed 'feats' or not.

Exactly my point earlier Leo. Only someone who does not read Vertigo type comics would post this type of Spam

Keep the faith

All things serve the beam

hey whirly, why don't you come right out and tell us how you REALLY feel about sentry's threads? all this very subtle beating around the bushes has me completely confused . . .

lol!

Anyway, maybe if the Endless has been shown to do more things and was shown in fights, then yes kgkg's logic would be ok. But the problem kg, is that theyre rarely seen to be doing anything, much less fighting. Dream is the only one weve seen do anything. We've never seen Destiny fight, weve never seen Death fight, weve never seen Desire fight, weve never seen Despair fight, weve never seen Delirium fight, and weve never seen Destruction fight.

So yes, agree with leo and whirly. We cant tell.

Originally posted by leonidas
hey whirly, why don't you come right out and tell us how you REALLY feel about sentry's threads? all this very subtle beating around the bushes has me completely confused . . .

He throws around intricate words that have a twisted meaning behind them. twisted I found that out nearly two months ago. That's why he's on my ignore list.

Originally posted by Sentry
He throws around intricate words that have a twisted meaning behind them. twisted I found that out nearly two months ago. That's why he's on my ignore list.

He thinks I am the devil, this is to much

Keep the faith

Trust me, Whirly is not the lord of lies angel

Isn't Wolverine an abstract?? I thought he was the living embodiment of Rage and Badassnosity! If that's the case, the abstracts win.

-DM

...sorry, bored

Nah man, Wolvie is far from the embodiment of anything. When it comes to embodiment of Rage and Badassednosity, its the HULK!!!!!!!!!! He's also the embodiment of torn pants, the embodiment of Steroids, the embodiment of the "I-have-unlimited-strength-yes-I-said-I-have-unlimited-strength-Ive-told-you-many-times-now-dammit-whats-your-problem" stance, the embodi...

*looks at Sentry* oops offtopic. Sorry Sentry

Originally posted by Synchro
lol!

Anyway, maybe if the Endless has been shown to do more things and was shown in fights, then yes kgkg's logic would be ok. But the problem kg, is that theyre rarely seen to be doing anything, much less fighting. Dream is the only one weve seen do anything. We've never seen Destiny fight, weve never seen Death fight, weve never seen Desire fight, weve never seen Despair fight, weve never seen Delirium fight, and weve never seen Destruction fight.

So yes, agree with leo and whirly. We cant tell.
I see your point am not saying , it's impossible , maybe they are equal in power who knows , but it's kinda like Wally the god boy

He claims he is God, but does that make him = Presence

Endless hasn't shown enough therefore abstract wins, just by feats

Remember Eternity is the living Universe, if the endless were born in the universe, or something to that effect they will be eternity’s avatars.

Eternity = all marvel universe hard to compete with that. especially if you don’t even know what the endless are capable of

Originally posted by leonidas
it really is impossible to say. the endless don't operate like this - ie they don't run out and battle, so they are not shown in these situations. you could take kg's stance and say abstracts win because endless haven't done anything, but that's kind of a nonsensical/ignorant (sorry, kg) position - just because they HAVEN'T doesn't mean they can't. and what's worse for this thread: they likely WON'T be shown doing the things that would warrant this kind of comparison. as i said, they're not written like that - and frankly, that's just the way i like it. not every abstract needs to be SHOWN obliterating a universe - if they are written well enough, certain things can be inferred. and if you know the endless, you know they are massively powerful - whether you've witnessed 'feats' or not.

I think its unfair kg. I mean, who's to say that the Endless couldnt have done something to the level that Eternity and others did, if only they were shown much in the comics? We havent seen ONE single feat The Endless(besides Dream) did. How can you compare feats when one of the combatants doesnt have one(or wasnt shown to us)?

The Endless are different from Wally, because, unlike him, they dont claim anything. They dont claim that they are super-strong, they dont claim that theyre God, they dont claim that they have done amazing feats. We can say that theyre powerful due to the reaction of people around them. leonidas already gave one example in his very first post in this thread.

The Endless arent avatars of Eternity either. Because Eternity and Endless came into existence at the same time ---> shortly after their respective Multiverses were created(except Destiny because he existed before it). And you should know why Death isnt an avatar of Eternity.

Originally posted by Synchro
I think its unfair kg. I mean, who's to say that the Endless couldnt have done something to the level that Eternity and others did, if only they were shown much in the comics? We havent seen ONE single feat The Endless(besides Dream) did. How can you compare feats when one of the combatants doesnt have one(or wasnt shown to us)?

The Endless are different from Wally, because, unlike him, they dont claim anything. They dont claim that they are super-strong, they dont claim that theyre God, they dont claim that they have done amazing feats. We can say that theyre powerful due to the reaction of people around them. leonidas already gave one example in his very first post in this thread.

The Endless arent avatars of Eternity either. Because Eternity and Endless came into existence at the same time ---> shortly after their respective Multiverses were created(except Destiny because he existed before it). And you should know why Death isnt an avatar of Eternity.
Maybe they can , but rite now it's only a guess.

Even gauging there power.

How can they match Eternity, Death ( multiversal ) Order , Chaos and countless others?

Why should we assume they can do what eternity can?

Why not? One of them earned the respect of the most arrogant, hard-to-please being in the Multiverse(Lucifer), that same person also wiped out an entire race with ease in a way that they never existed in the first place and he's not even the strongest of the Endless. The Kindly Ones, who are one of the most powerful beings in the Multiverse, were scared to death of... well... Death. When Lucifer threatened to call Dream on the Japanese Gods, they were scared shitless and immediately heed to Lucifer's demands.

Plus existing almosy as long as the Multiverse is always a plus . AND theyre also abstract beings like Eternity and the others, and we all know how powerful abstract beings should be.

Now dont get me wrong, Im not saying that they can do something on the same level of what Eternity and the others did. Im just saying that its possible due to what Ive wrote above. They can or they cannot, we cant tell because we havent seen them much to accurately gauge their powers.

Originally posted by Synchro
Nah man, Wolvie is far from the embodiment of anything. When it comes to embodiment of Rage and Badassednosity, its the HULK!!!!!!!!!! He's also the embodiment of torn pants, the embodiment of Steroids, the embodiment of the "I-have-unlimited-strength-yes-I-said-I-have-unlimited-strength-Ive-told-you-many-times-now-dammit-whats-your-problem" stance, the embodi...

*looks at Sentry* oops offtopic. Sorry Sentry

A shot at Sentry huh? Very funny.... It's cool though Synchro. You are a genius when it comes to your posts. Very informative.

Haha! Im not good at jokes though, so I thought that was lame. Anyway, thanks for the compliment. And I didnt get the chance to give you props in the Best Debaters thread because of the offtopic discussions that are going on there, so I'll just give you props here. Your one of the best debaters and members in my book. leo, whirly and kg are also included. Props!!

Thanks

So Death is an endless, and an abstract? Let me end the debate for you here then. DC Death, is the ultimate being, all including the presence answer to her in the end. Marvel Death has been put in a "coma."

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
So Death is an endless, and an abstract? Let me end the debate for you here then. DC Death, is the ultimate being, all including the presence answer to her in the end. Marvel Death has been put in a "coma."

Probably about right you can actually make some good points Mercilous, well done!

Wasn't Dream trapped by humans once using magic?

I think Destiny, being the oldest, is the most powerful. Death is second. Followed by Dream. And the rest.... So seeing as the abstracts don't dream, Morpheus doesn't have power over them, however they'd have a problem with Death. I think that's why Morpheus holds a lot of sway in the DCU universe - demons, pantheon gods all dream, take away their ability to dream and they have no hope.

Yes and they were after Death good point it was issue one

Absolutely, Synchro. Dream will be far from useless in this battle. While the abstracts essentially form the entire universe and are far above petty desires, they still have dreams. Death wanted a balance between the living and dead. Eternity wanted the gauntlet from Warlock, or at least the Reality Gem. Oblivion wanted to tip the universal balance in his favor using Maelstrom.

anyone notice MERCILOUS said "DC Death is the ultimate being, all including the presence answer to her in the end." i don't believe The Presence answers to any of The Endless. he was here before any of them, also wasn't DC Death scared of Lucifer?? if thats true then Death would no way have anything over God.

Death wasnt scared of Lucifer but she admitted that she has no power over him. And I think Merc was just joking there.

oh ok nvm lol, but about the topic, since Destiny was here even before the multiverse, i would think The Endless would have a good chance of winning.

<<I remember the reason why Dream was trapped was because he battled unknown forces in another Galaxy which made him tired and that led him to be captured by Burgess and his troops.>>

thanks for fielding that one, sync. i wasn't looking forward to cracking that book, but i knew there was something more to the story than he was 'simply trapped'. though he was indeed, trapped.

Rubbish he had not battled anyone, Burgess made a mistake and got Dram instead of Death. The only reason Dream was weakened in those issues was because he had shared his power, between his objects of power, Gem, helm etc. It said nothing about him being weakened due to battling Morpheus hardly ever battled anyone, certainly not in other galaxies as he was in other places often at once. Originally posted by leonidas
<<I remember the reason why Dream was trapped was because he battled unknown forces in another Galaxy which made him tired and that led him to be captured by Burgess and his troops.>>

thanks for fielding that one, sync. i wasn't looking forward to cracking that book, but i knew there was something more to the story than he was 'simply trapped'. though he was indeed, trapped.

Well, whirly cleared that up. I stand corrected. But still, I also always knew that there was something more to it than just Dream being captured.

Anyway, atleast Im correct about him being tired/weakened

<<Rubbish he had not battled anyone, Burgess made a mistake and got Dram instead of Death. The only reason Dream was weakened in those issues was because he had shared his power, between his objects of power, Gem, helm etc. It said nothing about him being weakened due to battling Morpheus hardly ever battled anyone, certainly not in other galaxies as he was in other places often at once. >>

er, perhaps i SHOULD have looked it up . . .

oops . . . thanks for keeping us honest, whirly!

But Dream at that time was a fragment of what he normally was. He had devided his power into his helm and his amulet (if there was another item I can't remember it right now.)

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6752/sandman05reprint141fz.th.jpghttp://img171.imageshack.us/img171/2347/sandman05reprint156dl.th.jpg