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1. According to the US Constitution, all Men are created equal, including gays. They should have the same rights are non-gays.

2. Gay marriage happens everyday in America. What we are really debating is making gay marriage licenses legal. As you read this, two men are getting "married" in a church somewhere in America, and you people in the Red States can't stop it.

3. How the hell does two men getting a marriage license in another state affect my marriage? This is the best example of imposing your moral beliefs on others. I do not care if gay people are allowed to get marriage licenses. It doesn't affect me at all.

4. Finally, I want gay marriage to be legal because it would piss off the Red States. That is reason enough for me.

Originally posted by Leafar

4. Finally, I want gay marriage to be legal because it would piss off the Red States. That is reason enough for me.



same here buddy

same here

Originally posted by Leafar
1. According to the US Constitution, all Men are created equal, including gays. They should have the same rights are non-gays.

2. Gay marriage happens everyday in America. What we are really debating is making gay marriage licenses legal. As you read this, two men are getting "married" in a church somewhere in America, and you people in the Red States can't stop it.

3. How the hell does two men getting a marriage license in another state affect my marriage? This is the best example of imposing your moral beliefs on others. I do not care if gay people are allowed to get marriage licenses. It doesn't affect me at all.

4. Finally, I want gay marriage to be legal because it would piss off the Red States. That is reason enough for me.



There is no good reason why gay marriage should be legaliezd.

conservatives talk about the 'sanctity of marriage' but thats just a bullshit PC line. what they really believe is that being gay is evil. "the bible says its evil" "they'll burn in hell" "god hates f@gs" is the answer you will finally recieve when you press the question hard enough. its a product of prejudice and intolerance. funny since its the exact opposite of how jesus taught us to conduct ourselves. hypocrtite redneck fools they are, so obsessed with christs' judgement on others that they fail to see their own evil. i wonder what jesus will have to say to THEM when they finally meet him. probably "piss off"

Originally posted by Leafar
1. According to the US Constitution, all Men are created equal, including gays. They should have the same rights are non-gays.

2. Gay marriage happens everyday in America. What we are really debating is making gay marriage licenses legal. As you read this, two men are getting "married" in a church somewhere in America, and you people in the Red States can't stop it.

3. How the hell does two men getting a marriage license in another state affect my marriage? This is the best example of imposing your moral beliefs on others. I do not care if gay people are allowed to get marriage licenses. It doesn't affect me at all.

4. Finally, I want gay marriage to be legal because it would piss off the Red States. That is reason enough for me.



*applauds*

Originally posted by Freaky Zeeky
There is no good reason why gay marriage should be legaliezd.

Want to back that statement up?

Originally posted by Freaky Zeeky
There is no good reason why gay marriage should be legaliezd.

Can you explain what "legaliezd" means? I am not up to date with the street slang.

And Lana, I hope that is a actual photograph of you. inlove

Originally posted by PVS
same here buddy

same here

yes i think so 2

Originally posted by Leafar
Can you explain what "legaliezd" means? I am not up to date with the street slang.

And Lana, I hope that is a actual photograph of you. inlove

Sorry to disappoint, but no, that's not me

Originally posted by Freaky Zeeky
There is no good reason why gay marriage should be legaliezd.


It's the other way around, there is no valid reasons as to why it should NOT be legalized.

Originally posted by Freaky Zeeky
There is no good reason why gay marriage should be legaliezd.

You do realize that gay marriage isn't mandatory, right?

it comes down to an issue of people not being guarrenteed equal protection or equal status.

and under the hypocrasy lable, must i mention that the homophobic washington governor and his group of homophobes were caught soliciting sex from 17 year old boys? or the catholic church (of course, pedophelia is a different and unrelated animal to homosexuality). not to mention the fact that every televangelist whom i've ever heard of cheating on his wife always involved buttsex.

Originally posted by Leafar
1. According to the US Constitution, all Men are created equal, including gays. They should have the same rights are non-gays.

2. Gay marriage happens everyday in America. What we are really debating is making gay marriage licenses legal. As you read this, two men are getting "married" in a church somewhere in America, and you people in the Red States can't stop it.

3. How the hell does two men getting a marriage license in another state affect my marriage? This is the best example of imposing your moral beliefs on others. I do not care if gay people are allowed to get marriage licenses. It doesn't affect me at all.

4. Finally, I want gay marriage to be legal because it would piss off the Red States. That is reason enough for me.



1. What about lesbians?

2. number 3

3. The economy will fluctuate due to tax discounts and other things that happens when you are legally married.

4. What were you saying about imposing things?

Now people, I'm just throwing these things out there for discussion. Don't hold me to my statement and yell "he's a bigot" or some other worthless crap. I had a problem like that one other time. These are RHETORICAL statements.

Originally posted by Leafar
1. According to the US Constitution, all Men are created equal, including gays. They should have the same rights are non-gays.

2. Gay marriage happens everyday in America. What we are really debating is making gay marriage licenses legal. As you read this, two men are getting "married" in a church somewhere in America, and you people in the Red States can't stop it.

3. How the hell does two men getting a marriage license in another state affect my marriage? This is the best example of imposing your moral beliefs on others. I do not care if gay people are allowed to get marriage licenses. It doesn't affect me at all.

4. Finally, I want gay marriage to be legal because it would piss off the Red States. That is reason enough for me.



Someones an angry democrat.

"Dude, my dad is going to be SO angry at you people..."

Grrrrrrrr

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
"Dude, my dad is going to be SO angry at you people..."

maybe that too

better them than me

Originally posted by Echuu
Now people, I'm just throwing these things out there for discussion. Don't hold me to my statement and yell "he's a bigot" or some other worthless crap.

You're a bigot.

Originally posted by alcoholicpoet
You're a bigot.

thanks

Originally posted by Leafar
1. According to the US Constitution, all Men are created equal, including gays. They should have the same rights are non-gays.

[/QUOTE

yeah, but gay men are not complete men. There is that chik gene that is passed down that makes them "girly men"

Legalizing gay marriage will not do any harm... to anyone

Legalizing gay marraige will bring about the apocalypse. Do you really want the end of the world to happen?

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
Legalizing gay marraige will bring about the apocalypse. Do you really want the end of the world to happen?

I presume you are joking.... If not... for shame

naw dude, it be in the Bible. After JC say it himself, right after da devil be tryin to turn em bad. JC say gay's go to hell, and he say dat because da devil be gay.

It seemed as though people were taking this thread a little to serious.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
naw dude, it be in the Bible. After JC say it himself, right after da devil be tryin to turn em bad. JC say gay's go to hell, and he say dat because da devil be gay.

It seemed as though people were taking this thread a little to serious.

Well.... The bible was written along time ago... When homosexuality wasn't understood... We can't believe everything that was written in it.. Can we?

No...

well, we can and alot of us do. I am sure homosexuality was understood . Seeing as many civilizations before christ were bi sexual.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
well, we can and alot of us do. I am sure homosexuality was understood . Seeing as many civilizations before christ were bi sexual.

Oh yeah... really understood

So many people knew the science behind homosexuality then

Wake up and smell the homo... they are not bad people!

never said they were, unless you actually believed that dribble i wrote as a bad joke. what is the science behind homosexuality then? Do we understand homosexuality anymore than civilizations did a thousand years ago? NO. It was actually accepted more two thousand years ago than it is now. During the roman empire it was not un common for men to have wives and male lovers. what science is behind homosexuality? I can see how psychology may play a role, but in the end i believe it all comes down to a spin of natures wheel.

There is nothing to prove that homosexuality is genetic as such... but we do indeed know far more about it then we did 2000 years ago.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
Originally posted by Leafar
1. According to the US Constitution, all Men are created equal, including gays. They should have the same rights are non-gays.



But they're men nonetheless.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
Originally posted by Leafar
1. According to the US Constitution, all Men are created equal, including gays. They should have the same rights are non-gays.



lmao

^nice spam..

Anyway, I could care less if marriage was legal or illegal.

as long as a gay dude doesnt do anything weird to me, i dont care.

the latest evidence shows that homosexuality is linked to how your olfactory receptors process phermones produced by both sexes. The only thing that's horribly wrong with gay marriage is the same thing that could potentially go wrong with any other marriage, problems that are too numerous to list here and usually involve the retarded ways that people can treat each other.
And if you're so worried about other men hitting on you, you're just uncomfortable with your own sexuality and probably have some rather queer tendencies yourself. In any case, you gotta realize that most men, gay or straight, have standards.

holy crap man wtf is wrong with you? I hope to god this is a joke, I mean just because people are gay doesn't mean they go around touching all guys privates, there not these super horny perverts that you homophobes seem to think they are. You can have your own opinion on gay marriage but when you say BS like that and then say you gotta snuff them (I'm sure the snuff part was a joke) but still that's just sick that's like KKK sick...

www.scrotalsafetycomission.com

Inspectah Deck ur a close minded idiot

And now on a more serious note, I'm bringing an off topic debate from another thread into this thread (it was off topic in the other thread, it'll fit in here)

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
That analogy was even worse.

You are promoting a "seperate but equal" ordeal.

They used to do that to blacks. They used to ban blacks from marrying each other, than ban blacks from marrying whites.

You think doing the same to gay people is any different ?

and the CONCEPT and TRADITION of marriage is more important that the happiness of a large number of people ?

Your basically saying that marriage, a non living thing, is more important and unworthy for gay people to have, just because your bias makes you see something else.

Beleive what you want...however, what gives you the RIGHT to bar two gay people from getting married? You never actually answered the question.

I'm not barring them from getting married. They have every right to a marriage, they just have to find someone of the opposite sex to get married to.

Originally posted by Alliance
heres some equations:

1 human = 1 human
1 human + 1 human = 1 relationship/marriage

can 1 human + 1 human equal anything other thatn 1 marriage?

If it does, you're discriminitory and believe that all men are not created equal.

a man is not the same thing as a woman. Show me a man who can give birth and maybe I'll change my mind. 1 human and 1 human is a relationship. It could be a marriage if one of them is male and the other is female. Like I said before - no discrimination about it they can get married like anyone else, just not to each other. Civil unions that impart the legal benefits we associate with marriage, the hospital visits, the tax benefits, etc., etc., those are fine with me. I just see them as being similar, but not identical.

I'm not barring them from getting married. They have every right to a marriage, they just have to find someone of the opposite sex to get married to.

Yes you are barring them that way. Why should gay men marry straight women and vise versa? they would only be miserable, wisen up dude.

If a gay man married a straight woman that marriage would be total BS...no love would be involved, only money.

Wow...you really are a century behind. GEt with the program dude.




a man is not the same thing as a woman. Show me a man who can give birth and maybe I'll change my mind. 1 human and 1 human is a relationship. It could be a marriage if one of them is male and the other is female. Like I said before - no discrimination about it they can get married like anyone else, just not to each other. Civil unions that impart the legal benefits we associate with marriage, the hospital visits, the tax benefits, etc., etc., those are fine with me. I just see them as being similar, but not identical.[/B[


Whether or not it is fine with you is irrelevent. It's thier life, not yours. It's thier happiness, not yours. Why do you care so much ????


Again...you are promoting seperate but equal....open your eyes...wake up

dude, you are UNAMERICAN. YOu attack the most sacred belief in American culture.

"ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL"

Gays desrve all the rights stright do. Its marriage. Calling it a Civil Union is denying what it is, MARRIAGE. Thats called seperate but equal. Do you support segregation?

Originally posted by PVS
conservatives talk about the 'sanctity of marriage' but thats just a bullshit PC line. what they really believe is that being gay is evil. "the bible says its evil" "they'll burn in hell" "god hates f@gs" is the answer you will finally recieve when you press the question hard enough. its a product of prejudice and intolerance. funny since its the exact opposite of how jesus taught us to conduct ourselves. hypocrtite redneck fools they are, so obsessed with christs' judgement on others that they fail to see their own evil. i wonder what jesus will have to say to THEM when they finally meet him. probably "piss off"

Jesus didn't preach tolerance, there is no virtue called tolerance. Christians are called to somrthing better, LOVE. I have gay friends, they know I am christian, and they know I dont approve of what they do. And they know that people shouldn't hate them, they should hate what they do.

Liberals preach tolerance, tolerance is just a half assed form of love. I tolerate you, yea that sounds nice.

You don't tolerate people killing themselves, you love them, so you tell them to stop.

So you liberals go screaming for half assed love while I go out and say, YES your doing something bad, NO I don't hate you. If I hated you I would let you do it, because I want to see you mess up. I love you, and want to help, so I tell you what your doing is wrong.

I think religious people...actually think they know whats best for everyone lololololol

and here my ass thought it was all about control...

wow...education. This country needs more education.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

Yes you are barring them that way. Why should gay men marry straight women and vise versa? they would only be miserable, wisen up dude.

If a gay man married a straight woman that marriage would be total BS...no love would be involved, only money.

Wow...you really are a century behind. GEt with the program dude.

Again, I didn't say that they would want to, just that they could. A gay man has the same rights as a straight man, and a gay woman the same as a straight. The only thing keeping them from getting married that way is their own choices. example. If I get arrested I have the right to remain silent. If I wave that right it's my choice my civil rights are not violated.



Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Whether or not it is fine with you is irrelevent. It's thier life, not yours. It's thier happiness, not yours. Why do you care so much ????


Again...you are promoting seperate but equal....open your eyes...wake up

Actually, I don't care that much, but you did ask my opinion. I'm not promoting separate but equal. I'm promoting absolute equality.

Originally posted by Alliance
dude, you are UNAMERICAN. YOu attack the most sacred belief in American culture.

"ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL"

Gays desrve all the rights stright do. Its marriage. Calling it a Civil Union is denying what it is, MARRIAGE. Thats called seperate but equal. Do you support segregation?

Still confused about where I attacked that. Straights and gays have the same rights, whether or not they exercize those rights is their choice. And again, 2 men is not the same thing as one man and one woman.

The first page of this thread is full of pure idiocy.

Originally posted by NineCoronas
The first page of this thread is full of pure idiocy.

yeah, but all the other gay marriage threads seem to get closed...

'Treat thy neighbor as thyself'

I want to get married. Some people are gay. I don't want gay people to stop me from marrying, ergo I let gay people marry.

I say if gays can't marry then everyone who thinks their lifestyle is 'wrong' shouldn't be able to marry. We don't want the idiots reproducing, now do we?

Again, I didn't say that they would want to, just that they could. A gay man has the same rights as a straight man, and a gay woman the same as a straight. The only thing keeping them from getting married that way is their own choices. example. If I get arrested I have the right to remain silent. If I wave that right it's my choice my civil rights are not violated.


These marriages would not work. A gay man is not capable of having sexual or romantic feelings for a woman. A lesbian woman does not have sexual or romantic feelings for a man.


These would be false marriages, ones lacking in love, and therefore meaningless.

If you let two gay men get married, you have two men who are in love, therefore thier marriage means something. Same with lesbians.


Marriage is not just a religious right. It is a civil right as well, and all Americans are entitled to it. Marriage only between a man and woman? Do all current marriages work? No...so where is your logic coming from ?





Actually, I don't care that much, but you did ask my opinion. I'm not promoting separate but equal. I'm promoting absolute equality.



Absolute Equality? You still wont not allow gay men to marry eachother, or lesbian women to marry each other. However you are fine with a straight man and a straight woman marrying eachother.

You're either deluded, a hypocrit, or your joking.....do you hear yourself?

You are promoting SEPERATE BUT EQUAL.....just admit it....you lost all my respect because you don't even know what you're talking about here.




Still confused about where I attacked that. Straights and gays have the same rights, whether or not they exercize those rights is their choice. And again, 2 men is not the same thing as one man and one woman.



You are right...two men is not the SAME thing as a man+woman....but its EQUAL.....two men deserve to be together in marriage just as much as a man and woman deserve to be together in marriage.

The foundation is love.....your basing foundation on religion and tradition, and that has nothing to do with the Love two people have for each other.



ne ways, it doesnt matter what you think. The world is changing. People's minds are opening. Tolerance is growing. Gays will eventually have the same privelages that straights have, and nothing you do or say will change that.

I did a search on the word "tax" on every page of this thread. No results. Come on people, use some common sense here. I mean, forget love, tell me the tax refund isn't what it's all about. Throw in a couple of kids (I guess for the gay marriages, adopted would count the same??), and you're talking jackpot every April.

I think marriage should be banned completely....

I did a search on the word "tax" on every page of this thread. No results. Come on people, use some common sense here. I mean, forget love, tell me the tax refund isn't what it's all about. Throw in a couple of kids (I guess for the gay marriages, adopted would count the same??), and you're talking jackpot every April.




You're telling me that Straight couples never marry for reasons other than love? So ALL straight married couples marry because they are in love, and for no other reason (benefits)

And you claim that gay people only want to get married for tax reasons....how do you know ?

How can you be so sure? Are you a gay person? I don't imagine you are, so how do u know ?

Well, I've made that not-so-serious post in about 10 different gay marriage threads, just to fill you in on that one since you joined on May 10th of this year. Be on the lookout for post #11. It'll be in the 11th gay marriage thread, and it'll be zany!

Originally posted by botankus
I did a search on the word "tax" on every page of this thread. No results.

No you didn't.

Silly comment by me on the first page...

"3. The economy will fluctuate due to tax discounts and other things that happens when you are legally married."

You're right. I must have typed in "tsx" or something a keystroke off. You made a good, silly point, though.

I think gay marriages should be illegalized and please!

The bible want all the of the oppsite sex to be together and make more besides havin another adam and steve come around and ruin society. I jus hope that gay marriages get illegalized. Men being gay is aiight wit me but the marriages should be illegal. No reason for gay marriages to be legalized. One of the reasons why im a bush party republcan hata

Originally posted by Darth Jello
In any case, you gotta realize that most men, gay or straight, have standards.

This is the part about biggots that I will never be able to understand. They assume that just because a man is gay, that he wants EVERY man they encounter. The idea is insane, because even the most grotesque man I encounter on the streets has standards of one form or another.

And while I support gay marriage, I don't fake myself out by justifying it as anything other than what it is...forced acceptance. But, that's what people don't understand. Those people who oppse it, for what ever reason they mention, are actually just biggots who refuse to take the mental steps required to understand the situation. It's easier for them to cast gays as deviants and social criminals than it is to just understand they're human beings too.

here's a fairly non-religious anti-gay marriage article.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,196456,00.html

some interesting stuff.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen


Marriage is not just a religious right. It is a civil right as well, and all Americans are entitled to it. Marriage only between a man and woman? Do all current marriages work? No...so where is your logic coming from ?


Marriage isn't a right at all. It's a contract entailing certain responsibilities and priviledges. It has well defined prerequisites for entering into it. The burden is on those wishing to change those prerequisites.

Do all marriages work? Sadly, no. I'm also an advocate of tougher divorce laws, but that's a topic for another thread.

My logic is sound. Marriage is at it's root about raising families. Men and women can do that. Either gender alone is physically incapable of it. One way promotes and protects social growth, the other makes a few people feel better about themselves.







Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Absolute Equality? You still wont not allow gay men to marry eachother, or lesbian women to marry each other. However you are fine with a straight man and a straight woman marrying eachother.

You're either deluded, a hypocrit, or your joking.....do you hear yourself?

You are promoting SEPERATE BUT EQUAL.....just admit it....you lost all my respect because you don't even know what you're talking about here.

Yep, abosolute equality. Get rid of the adjectives and you'll see what I mean. Any man can marry any woman, and vice versa. A man cannot marry a man, a woman cannot marry a woman. All men have the same rights, but it is their choice whether or not they exercize them.

Fox News? You've got to be kidding me.

And actually yes, marriage IS a right. It is not a privelige that you need to earn, it is a right that you have if you so wish. Marriage is not necessarily about raising families anymore -- there are many many married couples who are childless. Should you just not allow them to marry anymore?

That's not equal in the least. If a man wishes to marry another man they should be able to. Two women should be able to as well. Allowing someone to marry whomever they wish, regardless of gender -- THAT would be equality.

Originally posted by JacopeX
I think gay marriages should be illegalized and please!

The bible want all the of the oppsite sex to be together and make more besides havin another adam and steve come around and ruin society. I jus hope that gay marriages get illegalized. Men being gay is aiight wit me but the marriages should be illegal. No reason for gay marriages to be legalized. One of the reasons why im a bush party republcan hata

Can you give a reason for gay marriages to NOT be made legal, without mentioning religion?

Only if you can give a good reason that they should. By the way, I didn't say that marriage was a priviledge. I said that it entailed priviledges. Don't forget the responsibilities too.

And what's wrong with foxnews? Did you even read the thing?

Fox News is notoriously biased to the right wing Christian conservatives. Using it as a source, especially in such a debate, will serve no purpose beyond getting you laughed out of the thread.

Why should it be allowed? Because we're a country that preaches equal rights for all; freedom for all. Because we have freedom of religion and it is illegal and unconstitutional to make laws based on religion. Because our constitution states "all men are created equal". Because it's nothing but discrimination to deny someone a basic human right due to their sexuality. Because it will NOT harm anyone in any way, nor will it cause society to fail and humanity to die off, as everyone seems to think. Because there is no reason to not allow it. Because you do not have the right to force your personal morals on everyone else. If you don't like the idea, then don't marry someone of the same gender. But don't tell someone else they can't marry someone because you don't like it.

Originally posted by Lana
Fox News is notoriously biased to the right wing Christian conservatives. Using it as a source, especially in such a debate, will serve no purpose beyond getting you laughed out of the thread.

Why should it be allowed? Because we're a country that preaches equal rights for all; freedom for all. Because we have freedom of religion and it is illegal and unconstitutional to make laws based on religion. Because our constitution states "all men are created equal". Because it's nothing but discrimination to deny someone a basic human right due to their sexuality. Because it will NOT harm anyone in any way, nor will it cause society to fail and humanity to die off, as everyone seems to think. Because there is no reason to not allow it. Because you do not have the right to force your personal morals on everyone else. If you don't like the idea, then don't marry someone of the same gender. But don't tell someone else they can't marry someone because you don't like it.

It's no less biased than CNN is for the other side. I personally think this whole civil rights argument is laughable.

Let me remind you that we already covered the equal rights thing. A man can get married if he wants too. Marriage entails a relationship with a woman. If the man doesn't want that it's his choice. No civil rights violations there.

As an aside, the constitution actually say "Congress shall make no law respecting religion or prohibiting the free exercize thereof". Laws have historically been made based on the morals and ethics of the society as a whole. I'm not bringing religion into this, but even if I were it sure ain't unconstitutional or illegal.

The constition doesn't say that all men are created equal (that's the Declaration of Independence). And even if it did I already covered that. Both gay and straight men have the same access to marriage. The difference is in there desire to enter into the contract with an appropriate partner (namely one of the opposite sex).

And as far as not harming anyone... Do I harm anyone if I neglect to buckle my seatbelt, or if I want to do do drugs in the privacy of my own home? Society makes laws like that, deal with it. And as far as that goes. Traditional marriage actually benefits society(Studies have shown that traditional families generally produce more stable children). What benefit would come of changing it. I asked for a good reason. In other words, to be blunt, what's in it for me (meaning society as a whole)?

Originally posted by sk8stuff09
as long as a gay dude doesnt do anything weird to me, i dont care.

Like, give them all the rights and they could start raping other men ?

From another thread:

Originally posted by Alliance
Men and woman are legally identical. Unless your sexist...

Or a biologist. Or in the armed forces. Or plenty of other places (childbirth, maternity leave, yada yada yada)


Originally posted by Alliance
Actually, If you know your history, homosexuality began being publically discussed in the 1950s in the US. I belive all people whould be treated equally under the law. Marriage is a privledge given to all US citizens, except homosexuals. Civil rights are in place to protect the rights of minorities, do make sure that they are not discriminated against by people with opinions similar to yours. The prequistes for a marriage license are unconstitutional. You cant have a discriminatory contract.

I wasn't talking about homosexuality in general, just as pertains to marriage. I don't see homosexuals as a minority, because I don't see them as different from anyone else. The prerequisites for marriage can't be unconstitutional for the simple reason that the constitution doesn't deal with marriage or sexual orientation at all. No non activist judge would ever find it unconstitutional. And the ammendment (which is silly to bring up in congress right now as there isn't enough support there for it, in the population yes, and the states, probably, but not in congress) would just clarify the way its supposed to be.

Originally posted by Alliance

Part of the reason there is no conclusive proof is that no one trusts the science talking about sexuality. If people claim a genetic link, they often want to engineer babies to not be homosexual or to discriminate based on the "gay gene." If there is no genetic link, people like you claim its a behavior and want to condition it out of society. If you know anything about genetics, you know that most everything is a combination of genetic predisposition and behavior.

Actually the major focus of my undergraduate work was genetics and molecular biology. I think what you meant to say is that it's a combination of genetics and environment. In which case we are in perfect agreement. However, in matters of behavior, I think that human beings have the potential to rise above their programming.

Originally posted by Alliance
Try talking to homosexuals, you'll find that most don't think its a behavioral pattern. Certainly don' tpass judgements on things untill you talk face to face with homosexuals and explain why you are partially disenfranchizing them.

I have spoken with gays, and most of the time we just have to agree to disagree. There is a small minority who will say that part of it is their choice. I've even read articles about a "recovering" homosexual. America is about choice, but choices always have consequences.


Originally posted by Alliance
Is a law just if tis discriminatory. The "laws" as you put them are unconstitutional. There is a reason the extreme religous conservatives want to put in a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. THe constitution protects gay marriage. The only way to stop that is by raping the constitution with ant-gay marriage amendments.

explained above. Nice use of inflammatory language by the way, but can we please stick to rational thought.

Originally posted by Alliance
YOure saying <<we'll its ok that we have segregation, because its the law>> THAT is unamerican.

Nope, I've said nothing about segregation. What I've said, if you'll stop trying to put words in my mouth, is that gays and straights should be treated exactly the same, and that there is no legitimate reason to change the law. No predjudice exists. The slights are percieved not real.

And quit calling me unamerican for crying out loud. Some of the things you're saying are american ideals come closer to socialism and marxism than the republic that the founding fathers actually gave us.


Originally posted by Alliance
If you read my post, its not a choice at all. Calling homosexuality an addiction and a weakness is personally disgusting on the highest of levels.

Disgusting or not it could be true. Disease isn't always a choice, but it can always be fought.



Originally posted by Alliance
Men aren't all genetically (as you mentioned) to like women. YOu can't force someone in this country to do somehting agianst your will. Your story doesnt make sense and isn't based on any fact. YOur "theory" is actually on conjecture.

Don't give me that. This country legislates behavior all the time. Seat belts, property zoning, don't get me started on homeowners associations. I guess I should have said hypothesis instead of theory, I really haven't gathered enough info for it to be a theory. Doesn't change the validity of the comparison. Just because something is genetic doesn't make it right.

Originally posted by Alliance
There is a difference between choosing which specific people you like and which sex you like. Homosexuals dont feel sexual attraction for the oposite sex. You cant just choose another any more than you can choose to feel sexually attracted towards men.

Prove it. The burden lies on the party supporting change. Alcoholics can't just turn off the desire for more booze either, doesn't mean that we should turn them loose in a bar.



Originally posted by Alliance
Abusive, incestusous, and bigamist marriages have been shown to hurt people. Abusive rlationships certianly hurt people. Incestuous marragies lead to twisted. Bigamist/polygamist marriages often lead to spousal neglect. Incestuous marriages are often used for cult religous family structures. Gay marriages don't hurt people. They most likely help in the same way that straight couples are helped by marriages.

Come on now, as long as they're consenting adults, what's the difference? In any of those cases they only hurt those involved. Take out the procreative problems and what is the difference really. If they love each other isn't that all that should matter?

Gay marriages would only benefit gays. What benefit would it give society? That's the real purpose behind government recognized marriage.

I wasn't talking about homosexuality in general, just as pertains to marriage. I don't see homosexuals as a minority, because I don't see them as different from anyone else. The prerequisites for marriage can't be unconstitutional for the simple reason that the constitution doesn't deal with marriage or sexual orientation at all. No non activist judge would ever find it unconstitutional. And the ammendment (which is silly to bring up in congress right now as there isn't enough support there for it, in the population yes, and the states, probably, but not in congress) would just clarify the way its supposed to be.



Our forefathers clearly intended for the Constitution to adapt to changes times, since they knew taht it was NEW IDEAS, not tradition, that would lead to progression of the United States.

What does that mean now? That as much are you conservatives have the right to argue your feelings about what you think should happen, we liberals and homos have the right to defend what we beleive is our RIGHT to have.

The crux of the matter is we are trying to fight for our freedom and you are trying to limit us.





Actually the major focus of my undergraduate work was genetics and molecular biology. I think what you meant to say is that it's a combination of genetics and environment. In which case we are in perfect agreement. However, in matters of behavior, I think that human beings have the potential to rise above their programming.



That's interesting, but an individual person does not have to submit to YOUR programming either.




I have spoken with gays, and most of the time we just have to agree to disagree. There is a small minority who will say that part of it is their choice. I've even read articles about a "recovering" homosexual. America is about choice, but choices always have consequences.



Speaking to gays and BEING gay are two completely different things. SEXUAL ACTIVITY is always a choice yes.....

Sexual orientation? NO my freind...thats not a choice. There are VIRGINS who identify themselves as gay or bisexual. Your sexual identity is based on your desires and attractions, not on your actual activity.

You do not choose your attractions, so theres no choice involved. The "gay" is completely involuntary just as being straight is.



Nope, I've said nothing about segregation. What I've said, if you'll stop trying to put words in my mouth, is that gays and straights should be treated exactly the same, and that there is no legitimate reason to change the law. No predjudice exists. The slights are percieved not real.

And quit calling me unamerican for crying out loud. Some of the things you're saying are american ideals come closer to socialism and marxism than the republic that the founding fathers actually gave us






If it were up to you gay men would only marry straight women and vise versa. Are you crazy bro ? Gay men don't have romantic sexual feelings for women, so you would only created a union of two miserable people.

Like i said, i think ur stance on this is deluded because you would rather have a marriage of a man and woman thats meaningless and lacking in love, then a marriage of two men that is filled with love.

To you the tradition is more important than the LOVE, and that is very UnChristian of you.




Disgusting or not it could be true. Disease isn't always a choice, but it can always be fought.


Wisen up. Homosexuality is NOT a disease. Diseases hurt and kill people. HATRED is more of a disease, and CLOSE MINDEDNESS is more of a disease. You seem to be infected with both my freind, you should get checked right away.






Don't give me that. This country legislates behavior all the time. Seat belts, property zoning, don't get me started on homeowners associations. I guess I should have said hypothesis instead of theory, I really haven't gathered enough info for it to be a theory. Doesn't change the validity of the comparison. Just because something is genetic doesn't make it right.



Being gay is not a crime though. You conservative Christians always compare being gay to murder, to being a theif, to being a pedifile, etc. just because you cannot come out and admit one fact:

This ultamately is not about sin.....you only have a few excerpts to go on from the Bible, you have NO rational reason to disapprove of gay people. You simply think we're disgusting. its that simple.

atleast admit it, and ill have SOME respect for your debate.





Prove it. The burden lies on the party supporting change. Alcoholics can't just turn off the desire for more booze either, doesn't mean that we should turn them loose in a bar.



BAD ANALOGY my close minded freind. Alcoholism is nothing like sexual drive. We all have the right to enjoy sex. Being a homosexual is not harmful to one's self. Alcoholism is.

Being a homosexual does not destroy your family, alcoholism does.

Alcoholism is a self induced addiction......Homosexuality is NOT self induced nor is it an addiction.....its a sexual orientation.



Dude you NEED to come up with better examples, because this only shows how LITTLE u know about the truth about gays.




Come on now, as long as they're consenting adults, what's the difference? In any of those cases they only hurt those involved. Take out the procreative problems and what is the difference really. If they love each other isn't that all that should matter?

Gay marriages would only benefit gays. What benefit would it give society? That's the real purpose behind government recognized marriage.



Gay marriage only benefits gays....no sh^t Sherlock.


The same way straight marriages only benefit straights.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

Our forefathers clearly intended for the Constitution to adapt to changes times, since they knew taht it was NEW IDEAS, not tradition, that would lead to progression of the United States.

What does that mean now? That as much are you conservatives have the right to argue your feelings about what you think should happen, we liberals and homos have the right to defend what we beleive is our RIGHT to have.

The crux of the matter is we are trying to fight for our freedom and you are trying to limit us.

True, which is why there is a movement to get an ammendment in place protecting the traditional definition of marriage. But honestly laws come from experience and history. Some things change with the times, but some truths are immutable. When looking at change we shouldn't just throw out the old, we should consider it, make sure we understand why it was the way it was and see what changed that requires the change.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
That's interesting, but an individual person does not have to submit to YOUR programming either.

Nope, it has to be that person's choice or it would be meaningless. But don't think that there aren't people who have made that choice.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Speaking to gays and BEING gay are two completely different things. SEXUAL ACTIVITY is always a choice yes.....

Sexual orientation? NO my freind...thats not a choice. There are VIRGINS who identify themselves as gay or bisexual. Your sexual identity is based on your desires and attractions, not on your actual activity.

You do not choose your attractions, so theres no choice involved. The "gay" is completely involuntary just as being straight is.

I have met gays, and lesbians, but never a gay virgin. Choice may not be the right word, but it isn't "just so" either. My own tastes in women have varied quite a bit over the years, and while that isn't as extreme as being attracted to a different gender, it does show that tastes can change over time.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If it were up to you gay men would only marry straight women and vise versa. Are you crazy bro ? Gay men don't have romantic sexual feelings for women, so you would only created a union of two miserable people.

Like i said, i think ur stance on this is deluded because you would rather have a marriage of a man and woman thats meaningless and lacking in love, then a marriage of two men that is filled with love.

To you the tradition is more important than the LOVE, and that is very UnChristian of you.

Honestly, I think a marriage made up based solely on sexual attraction would make a sad marriage anyways. Friendship should always be the foundation. No marriage based on trust and mutual understanding and friendship would be meaningless, regardless of sex.

By the way, I adhere to the christian maxim of love the sinner, hate the sin. You and I can be friends, but I can't approve of your lifestyle.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Wisen up. Homosexuality is NOT a disease. Diseases hurt and kill people. HATRED is more of a disease, and CLOSE MINDEDNESS is more of a disease. You seem to be infected with both my freind, you should get checked right away.

I would agree that chronic hatred and closedmindedness are both diseases. Probably worse than homosexuality.

As far as my own health concerning them, I don't hate you or any other homosexual. My mind is relatively open, you won't entertain the idea that homosexuality could be wrong any more than I would entertain the possibility of it being natural. One of those areas we're going to have to agree to disagree on.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Being gay is not a crime though. You conservative Christians always compare being gay to murder, to being a theif, to being a pedifile, etc. just because you cannot come out and admit one fact:

This ultamately is not about sin.....you only have a few excerpts to go on from the Bible, you have NO rational reason to disapprove of gay people. You simply think we're disgusting. its that simple.

atleast admit it, and ill have SOME respect for your debate.

I admit that I think homosexuality is disgusting. I do not think that people are disgusting. Like I said before, I see you as separate from your actions.

I've also never compared it to murder, theivery or pedophilia. my comparison was to a drug addict. If anyone is hurt by it it is the person doing it.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
BAD ANALOGY my close minded freind. Alcoholism is nothing like sexual drive. We all have the right to enjoy sex. Being a homosexual is not harmful to one's self. Alcoholism is.

Being a homosexual does not destroy your family, alcoholism does.

Alcoholism is a self induced addiction......Homosexuality is NOT self induced nor is it an addiction.....its a sexual orientation.



Dude you NEED to come up with better examples, because this only shows how LITTLE u know about the truth about gays.

Homsexuality doesn't destroy families? Who are you trying to convince? It breaks hearts and destroys families. You can blame religion if you like, but homosexuality is just as much to blame. When a man leaves his wife because he decides that he can't take it anymore because he's gay - that's a family destroyed, sometimes children are even involved. When religious parents learn that a child is "gay" - broken hearts right there. To say nothing of the stigma attached to the gay himself. No, homosexuality is quite destructive.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Gay marriage only benefits gays....no sh^t Sherlock.


The same way straight marriages only benefit straights.

Traditional marriages benefit society. The family is what civilization is built on. Children of a traditional marriage have both a primary male and a primary female rolemodel.

The same cannot be said for gay unions.

Homsexuality doesn't destroy families? Who are you trying to convince? It breaks hearts and destroys families. You can blame religion if you like, but homosexuality is just as much to blame. When a man leaves his wife because he decides that he can't take it anymore because he's gay - that's a family destroyed, sometimes children are even involved. When religious parents learn that a child is "gay" - broken hearts right there. To say nothing of the stigma attached to the gay himself. No, homosexuality is quite destructive.




Yes you say you would rather have a gay man marry a woman then have to gay men marry eachother. Don't be a hypocrit dude, ur smarter than that.


Heartbroken ? You don't think the gay person was terrified to admit to his parents about who he is ? Get over it.....all he or she is doing is TELLING THE TRUTH about who they are.

Any parent who is heartbroken by the fact that his or her son or daughter is gay is brainwashed and needs to set thier priorities straight.

And yes it is devestating when a gay man leaves his wife and kids, but you said you would be okay with a gay man marrying a woman, and you'd prefer this to two gay men getting married to each other.....i dont get ur LOGIC.... ????

Society makes this devestating. Homosexuality is made to be a bigger deal than it actually is.


Open minded parents would not feel "heartbroken" or "betrayed" by thier children who come out. They would put the PRIORITY that it is thier CHILD and thier child is an individual PERSON with thier own LIFE and thier OWN RIGHTS......

its societies faults that adult parents would even feel this way, not the homosexuals fault, because religious and hateful societies only program people to thnk that being gay is like the ultamate abomination of being, and u guys are soooo wrong in that judgement.

You can point the finger at society or religion if you want.

The fact is that if that gay family man had been responsible, he either wouldn't have gotten married or he would have stuck with the family regardless of his personal desires. I have the same feeling about men who go out and leave their family for another woman.

Have you thought that the religious family might be right? It would be one thing if the kid said, I'm having these feelings and tried to fight it, it's completely another when he just gives in and goes to that lifestyle.

The main damage though is probably spiritual though, and we probably won't know the extent of it until the afterlife. We do have some indicators here though.

Gays are more promiscuous than most people. That doesn't mean that all gays are sleeping around, but more are than happens in the population as a whole.

STD's are markedly higher among homosexuals. More with men than women, but the statistical difference is there.

Drug use, alcohol abuse, and other detrimental lifestyle choices are higher among homosexuals than the general population.

The average homosexual leads a dangerous lifestyle. Again, not all gays are average, but it is an indicator.

I feel sorry for them, but I do believe that a human being can take control of their own life.

-edit-

And I don't think that gays are the ultimate abomination. That honor is reserved for child molestors. Gay actions are more comparable to extramartial affairs and drug abuse.

Honestly, I think a marriage made up based solely on sexual attraction would make a sad marriage anyways. Friendship should always be the foundation. No marriage based on trust and mutual understanding and friendship would be meaningless, regardless of sex.

By the way, I adhere to the christian maxim of love the sinner, hate the sin. You and I can be friends, but I can't approve of your lifestyle.




Ofcourse we could be freinds, no exchange of hatred is necessary, but its obvious that we have our FIRM states of mind and neither of us will budge.

You DONT HAVE TO approve of my lifestyle, i will NEVER NEED you to do so, just like you will never need me to approve of your Faith.

However, knowing that you would participate in limitting my freedom and therefore sabatoging my chances at possible happiness my DISallowing me to marry a man that i LOVE, i wouldn't want to be your freind.

The reason is ultamately because you would be disrespecting my FREE WILL, my ability to make my OWN choices independent of your approval, and over all infringing on my human and civil rights.

It all comes down that that bro. Sorry

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Honestly, I think a marriage made up based solely on sexual attraction would make a sad marriage anyways. Friendship should always be the foundation. No marriage based on trust and mutual understanding and friendship would be meaningless, regardless of sex.

By the way, I adhere to the christian maxim of love the sinner, hate the sin. You and I can be friends, but I can't approve of your lifestyle.




Ofcourse we could be freinds, no exchange of hatred is necessary, but its obvious that we have our FIRM states of mind and neither of us will budge.

You DONT HAVE TO approve of my lifestyle, i will NEVER NEED you to do so, just like you will never need me to approve of your Faith.

However, knowing that you would participate in limitting my freedom and therefore sabatoging my chances at possible happiness my DISallowing me to marry a man that i LOVE, i wouldn't want to be your freind.

The reason is ultamately because you would be disrespecting my FREE WILL, my ability to make my OWN choices independent of your approval, and over all infringing on my human and civil rights.

It all comes down that that bro. Sorry

I understand that you see it that way, and I'm sorry that you feel that way. I wish you happiness, but I hope you understand where I'm coming from as well.

Gays are more promiscuous than most people. That doesn't mean that all gays are sleeping around, but more are than happens in the population as a whole.

Another unfair misconception. You do not like me generalizing Christians, so why do you generalize gays?

Gays make up for only 10% of the population, its impossible for gays to be more permiscious than staights, because 90% more straights exist than gays.

This is mislead information, and part of conservative propaganda.

Actually HIV is now more common among straight male hispanics, straight male whites, and most women. It might have STARTED breaking out into the gay society first, but what does it matter?

Diseases do not discriminate, they kill blindly and anyone they can.


I'm bisexual, and i ahve only had sex with two peolpe my entire life. One woman and one man. no threesome, these were diff relationships.


I am not a "****" or "permiscuous boy" so please don't classify me as one. I AM VERY PICKY AND SELECTIVE about who i date and who i have sex with, so your wayyy off base there.



It is true that many gay men have this lifestyle that does put thier own life at risk. But not ALL GAY MEN...u have not the slighest idea how many other gay men are. Please dont classify them that way.

SUPERFICIALITY is very high among many gay men, that i will admit. I hate that about gay people. But you gotta realize something......


Both Gay men and Straight Christian men are capable of the same hatred and the same prejudices. Niether is better or worse than the other.


I have learned this the hard way my freind. You think I LIKE ALL GAY GUYS ? HELLZ NO....but its not for the same reason you dont approve. I don't disapprove of thier sexuality, its thier business.

I disapprove of how prejudice a gay person can be to another gay person or to someone else, the SAME way i disapprove of how straight Christian conservatives are bias against almost every1 else.





PLEASE DUDE...if u learn anything from my arguments let it be this: lets not fight over our differences. ITS SUCH A WASTE.......we are all diverse and we all come from different faiths, beleifs, backgrounds.

However WE ALL own this world. This EARTH is ours we live here and dominate it. Instead of fighting each other for our differences, in real life, lets try and make this world a happier place for everyone as much as possible by fighting the real evils: poverty, hatred, drugs and war.

I don't mind generalizations about Christians, as long as there is some truth in them.

I hope you noticed my disclaimers on my generalizations. I know that not all gays are that way, but I've also seen the stats. I hope you didn't think that I automatically included you in that group.

I also happen to think that many Christians are bigots. I am a Christian, but I sure hope I'm not a bigot.

It's true that HIV has migrated somewhat, but for STD's in general, homosexual sex is still one of the big risk factors. That's why they ask you about it before you can donate blood.

Here's a website about homosexuality and disease:

http://www.thebody.com/sowadsky/gaymen.html

The cancer thing was actually a surprise to me, I knew that that virus could cause cancer, but I didn't make the connection.

We ARE ALL bigots in some way shape or form.

I may not discriminate based on race, sexual orienation, or religion per say.

But due to so many negative experiences, do i get scared to assossiate with religious people because i assume that they will automatically pass judgement on me, and minimize who I am by classifying me as a "***"....

its happened SO MANY TIMES already....so yes, thats a bias i have to get over.


But a more personal and deep rooted bias.....i have to admit i possess.


I may not be superficial, like many gay guys ARE, but i am a bit shallow and picky with who i date. I have to think someone is GORGEOUS or alteast very sexy in order to date them. Personality counts yes, but i dont give a person a chance at being with me if he or she isn't physically attractive in my opinion.

I AM VERYYYY PICKY....and i shouldnt be, cuz thats the main reason im lonely.


I mean im a pretty good lookn guy, by my own standards and by mannny other people's (www.myspace.com/darkalnyc ) if u wanna judge lol i duno or care, but the point is i dont know WHY i have this sort of bias.

IT DOES HURT PEOPLE...men and women when i reject them for reasons that they cannot understand. I never tell anyone thier ugly, i cant do that someone, but ill always make up an excuse when im not physically attractive.

I feel bad about this though.

I'm not much of a judge of guys, but you look like a decent fellow. I'd there'd be girls after you.

I guess I kinda share your bias. I'd never tell anyone that they were ugly, but attractive people do get preferential treatment from me (you should see me tip a hot waitress ). I don't treat other people bad, but you know...

Originally posted by docb77
here's a fairly non-religious anti-gay marriage article.


Nothing I mentioned was religious. In fact, there is nothing religious about gay marriage...in fact, there is nothing religious about modern marriage. Were the blessing of god involved in any modern marriage, then modern marriage would not exist. The sole factor is misunderstanding and bigotry. It's cool with me that any one who disapproves of gay activities speak up, but don't be offended or shocked when the converse happens.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I'm not much of a judge of guys, but you look like a decent fellow. I'd there'd be girls after you.

I guess I kinda share your bias. I'd never tell anyone that they were ugly, but attractive people do get preferential treatment from me (you should see me tip a hot waitress ). I don't treat other people bad, but you know...


Thanks. Yes, that is a bias most of us all share.

It's called either being shallow or superficiality. I hate superficiality, but i DO possess it quite a bit.

I understand fully that this makes me a hypocrit. But i can't help it. I can't date someone that i am NOT physically attracted to. It will never work, no matter how sweet they are.


Ofcourse if a gorgeous person has a horrible personality, i let them go. I can't tolerate cruelty either.


But i do feel bad about the fact that ive hurt many men and women's feelings by rejecting them (based on the fact that thier not my "type"


How do you change this ? I know i wouldn't be so lonely if i wasnt so picky.....ive only had two major relationships in my life, and i duno

Haven't figured out how to change it, I still only date girls I think are attractive. Although I do have some ugly friends, maybe that's how it starts.

Originally posted by docb77
By the way, I adhere to the christian maxim of love the sinner, hate the sin. You and I can be friends, but I can't approve of your lifestyle.

Not real friends.



Originally posted by docb77
I would agree that chronic hatred and closedmindedness are both diseases. Probably worse than homosexuality.

possibly?

Originally posted by docb77
As far as my own health


Your own health is a non issue when it comes to homosexual activity. Unless you have sex with a gay man, "YOUR HEALTH" is not relevant, nor should it be brought up in this discussion.


Originally posted by docb77
I admit that I think homosexuality is disgusting. I do not think that people are disgusting. Like I said before, I see you as separate from your actions.

"Seperate, but Equal" has always worked out well for humanity, hasn't it?


Originally posted by docb77
Homsexuality doesn't destroy families?.

Originally posted by docb77
It breaks hearts and destroys families.

What does?


Originally posted by docb77
When a man leaves his wife because he decides that he can't take it anymore because he's gay - that's a family is destroyed,

Yes! I agree with you. But my difference in opinion is that that family should never have existed in the first place.

Originally posted by docb77
Traditional marriages benefit society. The family is what civilization is built on. Children of a traditional marriage have both a primary male and a primary female rolemodel.

The same cannot be said for gay unions.

Explain to me how civilization is built on the family, or teh straight marriage for that matter. That is simply a false positive in teh argument. This assumption is another in a long line of uneducated assumptions by those who place religion above reality.

im pro gay marrige however i do see the problems (minor though they are) that it brings up: the ever popular who's the wife, this is childish yes however it does present some context to the subject as marital benefits are established on man-woman basis atm

CHANGE THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!^

Originally posted by docb77
True, which is why there is a movement to get an ammendment in place protecting the traditional definition of marriage. But honestly laws come from experience and history. Some things change with the times, but some truths are immutable. When looking at change we shouldn't just throw out the old, we should consider it, make sure we understand why it was the way it was and see what changed that requires the change.

Bah!!!! Some truths are indisputable? Since when has marriage been a truth? The whole concept of marriage, of binding union, is vastly different today from "the olden days" - it annoys me so much when people seem to claim that the first man and women to come down from the trees brought with them the Christian concept of marriage - the so called traditional concept.




???



Just for the sake of it a gay couple is not just about sexual attraction, just as a heterosexual couple isn't just about that. A gay couple is just as capable of being friends, of having trust and mutual understanding as any heterosexual couple. I'd say maybe even more so, but I wont.




A very open minded view, I'll give you that.



I can give you a list as long as my arm the harm drugs cause a person (the whole self victimisation), but I doubt I could put down even 5 things about how homosexuality hurts the homosexual, and even then they would mostly be things like "if you are a homosexual you will face bias from society"




How poetic. Broken hearts. You seem to be implying gay people make a habit of getting married, having kids and then leaving their wife. Fact - in todays more liberal world there are far fewer men and women forcing themselves into heterosexual relationships for the wrong reasons - like appeasing unacepting parents. And it's a gay persons fault their "religious parents" can't accept the way they are? I mean, you could say the same if hard line Christians have a child who wants to convert to Islam - that's a broken heart too it would seem.




Me, I'd think just promoting love, understanding and equality would be whats good for society - for all men and women. What are your views on divorce? Single mothers? Mixed families? Adoption? Foster care? Surrogates? Marriage isn't as clear cut now as it was before. Hasn't been for some time. And you know what? Society is still here, ticking along.

I don't give a shit either way.

Nor Do I....

I do not plan on getting married because I am attracted to both men and women....i just can't imagine SOLIDIFYING a relationship with a person of one gender and giving the other gender up ENTIRELY

unless my partner is a swinger lol


However there are gay people who DO want marriage, and i thnk it is thier right to have this. They should be able to marry whoever they want, religious oppression is being done to them by denying thier right to do so.

Originally posted by docb77
Disgusting or not it could be true. Disease isn't always a choice, but it can always be fought.

Just curious here, Capt_Fantastic, did you even bother to try to understand what I meant? From your comments I'm thinking no. example: when I said health I was speaking in regards to those illnesses previously mentioned, namely hatred and closed-mindedness.

If you're going to argue with someone, at least try to understand what they're saying first.

Imperial Samura for example, I think he pretty much got the gist of my message. I get that we don't agree, but he mostly responded with valid points.

I understood. You directed that at me.

Do you still think homosexuality a disease though ?

Originally posted by docb77
Just curious here, Capt_Fantastic, did you even bother to try to understand what I meant? From your comments I'm thinking no. example: when I said health I was speaking in regards to those illnesses previously mentioned, namely hatred and closed-mindedness.

If you're going to argue with someone, at least try to understand what they're saying first.

Imperial Samura for example, I think he pretty much got the gist of my message. I get that we don't agree, but he mostly responded with valid points.

Oh yes, I understood. I understood that you were saying that hatred and closed-mindedness were a disease worse than homosexuality. And if you expect me to condone the notion that homosexuality is a disease, then you are fooling yourself in regards to my position. All I have to go on is what you say, when it comes to your opinion.

How can you guys say Homosexuality is a disease?


Diseases destroy your body or mind. Being a homosexual does not destroy your body, nor does it make you mentally ill in any way.

It's not a disease. But yes, Docb....close mindedness and Hatred CAN BE poisonous to one's being.




And don't feed me any bull$#$ about how gay people put thier health in danger or w/e.....Straight people have the SAME RISK when they have unprotected sex as well, so don't try that example, it wont work.



Being a homosexual does not harm oneself. Being permiscious yes, but there are straight, gay, and bisexual people who are permiscuous, so its not a "gay' issue.

I don't think homosexuality is any worse than any kind of promiscuousness. Affairs are bad too. And there are people who claim to be sex addicts. That's a disease too, in the same way.

As far as whether or not a person is harmed by being gay, well, I bet that they are spiritually, but we'll never know for sure, because to find out we'd have to a straight person who's willing to "be gay" for a while (actually we'd have to find a bunch). Then we could measure the mental health/sense of well being/spirituality both before the experiment and after. Thing is we'd never find enough willing participants.

So, yeah, I think in the long run being gay is bad for you. In the short run? Probably makes no difference.

Docb77...that's what you don't understand my freind.

YOU CANT MAKE A STRAIGHT PERSON GAY...they will NEVER ENJOY IT

JUST LIKE YOU CAN NEVER MAKE A GAY PERSON STRAIGHT..they will NEVER ENJOY IT



That experiment will ultamately FAIL

If it good for your spirit ? Is being with the person you LOVE not good for your spirit ?

Come on Docb77, i KNOW your smarter than this. I KNOW you are more than capable of thinking outside the box.....

Originally posted by docb77
I don't think homosexuality is any worse than any kind of promiscuousness.

this is where your argument fails, on all accounts. You don't deny that homosexuality is not a "disease". Instead, you compare it to absolute "promiscuousness". That is absurd. I know of few gay couples that have remained faithful, but because most of my friends are straight, I know of even fewer straight couples that have remained faithful to one another.

And I won't even get started on teh number of gay people in more rural regions that fall back on "unscrupulous" behavior, based solely on the fact that they can't operate honestly in American society. To admit to being gay, and living that way implies a huge number of social and economical(based on their job) implications that can not be ignored.

There's a reason people hide in the closet in this day and age.

Actually, that's not true. I always assume that other gay people are going to have the same "go fu*k yourself" attitude that I have, which is unfair.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Docb77...that's what you don't understand my freind.

YOU CANT MAKE A STRAIGHT PERSON GAY...they will NEVER ENJOY IT

JUST LIKE YOU CAN NEVER MAKE A GAY PERSON STRAIGHT..they will NEVER ENJOY IT



That experiment will ultamately FAIL

If it good for your spirit ? Is being with the person you LOVE not good for your spirit ?

Come on Docb77, i KNOW your smarter than this. I KNOW you are more than capable of thinking outside the box.....
Do you have any way to prove that? I'm not arguing for the argument's sake, I'm simply curious.

How can we be so sure a person can't "turn gay" or "turn straight" we (leftists) always point out Christians (most) lack of proof to support their arguments. Now I know homosexuality, heterosexuality and bisexuality all happen in nature but what makes us so sure you can't change your sexuality through psychological treatment?

And the "they wouldn't enjoy it" part, sex at least they would.

Just so we're clear I'm not suggesting homosexuality can be changed, I just have an open mind and I'd rather not feel completely strongly on an issue I don't have any proof to back it up with.

Originally posted by Eis
Do you have any way to prove that? I'm not arguing for the argument's sake, I'm simply curious.

How can we be so sure a person can't "turn gay" or "turn straight" we (leftists) always point out Christians (most) lack of proof to support their arguments. Now I know homosexuality, heterosexuality and bisexuality all happen in nature but what makes us so sure you can't change your sexuality through psychological treatment?

And the "they wouldn't enjoy it" part, sex at least they would.

Just so we're clear I'm not suggesting homosexuality can be changed, I just have an open mind and I'd rather not feel completely strongly on an issue I don't have any proof to back it up with.

Why turn them straight when they can be happy gay? Seems like a worthless attempt, even if it works.

Originally posted by MC Mike
Why turn them straight when they can be happy gay? Seems like a worthless attempt, even if it works.
I completely agree with you, I wouldn't change my sexuality. I'm arguing whether we actually can, not if we should.
Either way I'm sure there are many homosexuals who would like to change their sexuality.

Do I know if it can't be changed through Psychiatric type of treatment?

No, I don't know that. It's possible !


Do I know that you can't change it yourself? Yes....


Look at Governor McGrievey's case for example, if you read his book you'll see that he would force himself to masturbate to PlayBoy centerfolds to try to "shift" his sexual impulses, but it never worked.


He's tried for almost 30 years, to no avail. He's 40 now, and he's finally accepted and come out about being GAY....end of story.


You can't change or CHOOSE your own desires...you can only choose to ignore them which only leads to more pain and self denial in the end.



But if many homosexuals DO want to change.....by all means, let them try it. But do not suggest that the homosexuals who are HAPPY with who they are should change a damn thing about themselves.

gay marriage should be legal, but marriage is crap anyway.

Even though ALL consenting couples, whether they be straight couples or gay couples, DESERVE the right to be married....

I don't think Marriage is for everyone.

Marriage is not sacred, its not permanant, its not a guarantee of anything. It's just a HUMAN CEREMONY..... People get Divorced ALL THE TIME

Marriage fails so frequently, people VERY OFTEN get married for the wrong reasons, people beleive that when you are married, God or some other force ensures that your relationship is now spiritually guarded....


Bull$#$.........Marriage is JUST A HUMAN CEREMONY and it's only as powerful as we let it be.

So many people assume that human sexuality, or sexuality in any species, is a black and white issue. And that simply isn't true. I think a lot of the contention about homosexuality comes from people who realize this about themselves, but think there's something wrong with themselves for not being black and white on the issue.

I have straight friends that have had gay experiences and I have had straight experiences myself. Now, I'm pretty sure I'm 100% gay, and I'm sure most of you would agree with me. However, if being 100% gay meant that I had zero attraction to women, then I would have had a hard time getting an erection when I had my straight experiences. (no pun intended) But I didn't have any. And the "straight" guys I've had experiences with didn't seem to have any problems either.

You can be attracted to a person, rather than a gender.

True Capt Fantastic...

But if you DONT LIKE WOMEN..they you DONT like Women. You can't make youself.

If you DON'T like Men, then you Don't like Men.....you can't MAKE yourself.



I'm bisexual, and although I PREFER women to men, i still like women to a degree. I do get aroused at the site of a gorgeous naked woman, but it does NOT arouse me to the EXTANT that a gorgeous naked man does.


Your not 100% gay, no 1 is. Just like no one is 100% straight.

But your still usually MORE towards one than the other. However, you can't say your 100% gay if you are slightly attracted to women.


I know there are gay people who claim to have been attracted to a woman once or twice, and same for straights in terms of being bi curious....


but I beleive that is all bisexuality.

My best freind Sarah is straight, and she would NEVER mess around with a girl, she gets grossed out by the idea of it.

Who cares?
It's not like they gonna have Children.

If they need marriage as a confirmation of their love then that's sad.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
But if you DONT LIKE WOMEN..they you DONT like Women. You can't make youself.

I agree 100% That's where my comment on liking a person for who they are, regardless of their gender becomes relevant. I've had male friends that are NOT attractive, but because of their personality, I eventually found them attractive. And it's the same with the straight experiences. I've never met a girl out ot a club and gone home with her. Ever. All those experiences occured after I got to know them and/or dated them for a while. And that was years ago.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Do I know if it can't be changed through Psychiatric type of treatment?

No, I don't know that. It's possible !


Do I know that you can't change it yourself? Yes....


Look at Governor McGrievey's case for example, if you read his book you'll see that he would force himself to masturbate to PlayBoy centerfolds to try to "shift" his sexual impulses, but it never worked.


He's tried for almost 30 years, to no avail. He's 40 now, and he's finally accepted and come out about being GAY....end of story.


You can't change or CHOOSE your own desires...you can only choose to ignore them which only leads to more pain and self denial in the end.



But if many homosexuals DO want to change.....by all means, let them try it. But do not suggest that the homosexuals who are HAPPY with who they are should change a damn thing about themselves.
I think it's simply arrogant for someone to assume you can't change your sexuality. There are no facts to back up any of our theories so before we call christian conservatives close minded we should be open to all theories ourselves.

I personally like Capt said don't think it's a black and white issue... But I don't know...


I just can't agree with this, nor disagree with it. Until there is proof either way it's naive to claim this.

But Eis, you have to know yourself well enought to know what turns you on and what doesn't. Or with whom you can sometimes picture yourself getting old.

Originally posted by Leafar
1. According to the US Constitution, all Men are created equal, including gays. They should have the same rights are non-gays.

2. Gay marriage happens everyday in America. What we are really debating is making gay marriage licenses legal. As you read this, two men are getting "married" in a church somewhere in America, and you people in the Red States can't stop it.

3. How the hell does two men getting a marriage license in another state affect my marriage? This is the best example of imposing your moral beliefs on others. I do not care if gay people are allowed to get marriage licenses. It doesn't affect me at all.

4. Finally, I want gay marriage to be legal because it would piss off the Red States. That is reason enough for me.

and what about lesbians? Then again, EVERY woman is in some way, lesbian.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
True Capt Fantastic...

But if you DONT LIKE WOMEN..they you DONT like Women. You can't make youself.

If you DON'T like Men, then you Don't like Men.....you can't MAKE yourself.



I'm bisexual, and although I PREFER women to men, i still like women to a degree. I do get aroused at the site of a gorgeous naked woman, but it does NOT arouse me to the EXTANT that a gorgeous naked man does.


Your not 100% gay, no 1 is. Just like no one is 100% straight.

But your still usually MORE towards one than the other. However, you can't say your 100% gay if you are slightly attracted to women.


I know there are gay people who claim to have been attracted to a woman once or twice, and same for straights in terms of being bi curious....


but I beleive that is all bisexuality.

My best freind Sarah is straight, and she would NEVER mess around with a girl, she gets grossed out by the idea of it. on everything! Except Sarah, poor Sarah I could enjoy the thought of having a bisexual female friend.

Originally posted by Capt Fantastic
:I agree 100% That's where my comment on liking a person for who they are, regardless of their gender becomes relevant. I've had male friends that are NOT attractive, but because of their personality, I eventually found them attractive. And it's the same with the straight experiences. I've never met a girl out ot a club and gone home with her. Ever. All those experiences occured after I got to know them and/or dated them for a while. And that was years ago.




If you were ever sexually and romantically attracted to a woman, they you are not gay. You are bisexual.

Sorry bro...you can call yourself Gay all you want, but ur not if this happened.

Your technically "bi"

I don't think I would ever SETTLE down with a woman unless she looked like Carmen Electra or Beyonce ......

However, ultamately i only imagine myself settling down with another man. I LOVE men....more than I do women.

Does that mean I'm gay? Not if i still have the attraction for women. I'm bisexual whether I like it or not.



If you HAVE liked women in a sexual or romantic way, then ur bisexual, not gay.

I can't think of any reason why gay marriage should not be made legal.

The Prime Minister of Australia, John Howard, has threatened to overturn the ACT's decision to allow Civil Unions, saying 'It is marriage, but by another name'. Why call it Civil Union, if it is the same as marriage? Is it in the hope that those opposed to gay marriage will become confused as to it's real meaning?

I don't believe John Howards outburst has anything to do with how he perceives 'marriage'. It isn't a question of whather gays/lesbians should be married, it's a question of, 'Do these people, whom many feel are 'unnatural/abnormal' be afforded the same rights as heterosexual couples'? It's about rights, not marriage.

I believe that gay people deserve to be treated with respect. Respect meaning, equal rights. It is such a shame, when, in this day and age, homosexuality has become readily accepted among the younger generation, but our political leaders can't see beyond what the Marriage Act of 1961 tells them.

Gays/lesbians contribute a great lot to this community. They work hard, pay their taxes, drive, have many friends, yet, even after doing all this, they are disrespected by being treated like second class citizens.

Gays/lesbians are human, too. Having homosexual couples declare their love for each other in a special ceremony won't interfere in your marriare, so what right do you have to complain?

Originally posted by Da preacher
Who cares?It's not like they gonna have Children.

Just because they are a homosexual couple, doesn't mean they won't think about having a child, whether it be through IVF, adoption etc.


Originally posted by Da preacher
If they need marriage as a confirmation of their love then that's sad.

I don't think it is much about confirmation, as such. Marriage is the only way these people can be afforded the same rights as heterosexuals.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If you HAVE liked women in a sexual or romantic way, then ur bisexual, not gay.

But, you're missing my point. I wasn't sexually attracted to the WOMAN, I was sexually attracted to teh person who possesed that personality. There was little romance involved in my high school relationships...or any one's high school relationships for that matter.

And I might add that those relationships occured based solely on my desire to fit in as a person, not from my desire. If my desires were the deciding factor, then I would have been sleeping with my best friend at the time. (No Burl, it wasn't Juan)

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
no one is 100% straight.

Originally posted by docb77
Nope, it has to be that person's choice or it would be meaningless.


If you were to ask any gay person whether they chose to be the way they are, they would tell you no. Ask yourself this: Did you choose to be straight? Are you straight because that is what you know you are, or are you straight because it is what you believe to be right?

Originally posted by docb77
I admit that I think homosexuality is disgusting. I do not think that people are disgusting.

Isn't this basically saying the same thing? Homosexuality is discusting, so don't you think that the homosexual themselves is also discusting?

Originally posted by docb77
If anyone is hurt by it it is the person doing it.

Only because society judges them for something which is out of their control.

Originally posted by docb77
Homsexuality doesn't destroy families? Who are you trying to convince? It breaks hearts and destroys families. You can blame religion if you like, but homosexuality is just as much to blame.


What about a family which is torn apart because the man embarked on an affair? Isn't heterosexuality to blame here?

Originally posted by docb77
When a man leaves his wife because he decides that he can't take it anymore because he's gay - that's a family destroyed, sometimes children are even involved.

As sad as it may be, at least this is better than the man staying with a woman he does not, and never has, loved.

Originally posted by docb77
When religious parents learn that a child is "gay" - broken hearts right there. To say nothing of the stigma attached to the gay himself.

Religion needs to accept that people are gay, and that there will always be gay people in this world. People need to love their children no matter what sexuality they are. Do you think a homosexual couple would hate their adopted child if he/she told them they were straight? Of course not.


Originally posted by docb77
Traditional marriages benefit society. The family is what civilization is built on. Children of a traditional marriage have both a primary male and a primary female rolemodel.

What about those families without a male and female role model? What about single parent families? Should pregnant women abort their unborn child because they know they will be forced to raise that child alone? No. Heterosexual couples can be fantastic parents, and wonderful rolemodels, but so could gay couples, if only they were given the chance.

Originally posted by DiamondBullets


Don't worry, I don't think that was a direct challenge to your uber straightness. You are still teh hottest guy the universe has ever know, and the b*tches still fear your manliness.

Marriage is a Christian institution. If you do no adhere to Christianity you would not want to be married. Homosexuals want to get married because they want to be in the public spotlight. Don't tell me differently because I won't believe it. Any self-respecting homosexual would accept a civil union because it has the same benefits as marriage, at least here in Canada. Homosexuals seem to be determined to undermine the beliefs of anyone opposes them for no real good reason that I can think of.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Marriage is a Christian institution. If you do no adhere to Christianity you would not want to be married. Homosexuals want to get married because they want to be in the public spotlight. Don't tell me differently because I won't believe it. Any self-respecting homosexual would accept a civil union because it has the same benefits as marriage, at least here in Canada. Homosexuals seem to be determined to undermine the beliefs of anyone opposes them for no real good reason that I can think of.

I would be happy with Civil Unions, provided it meant that homosexuals were afforded the same rights.

You seem to believe that marriage is not the same as a Civil Union, so tell me, why are religious people opposed to Civil Unions? Is it because they believe Civil Unions are, in fact, marriage by another name, or is it because they do not wish to see homosexuals afforded the same rights as heterosexuals?

Homosexuals wish to be married because they know they will be treated equally. It is not because they wish to be in the spotlight, as you claim.

Many religous people such as myself believe civil unions are wrong because they afford the same rights as marriage without the sanctity of God.
I say let the **** get their tax breaks because no matter what they believe, they will be discriminated against for their sexuality whether or not gay marriage is legalized.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Many religous people such as myself believe civil unions are wrong because they afford the same rights as marriage without the sanctity of God.
I say let the **** get their tax breaks because no matter what they believe, they will be discriminated against for their sexuality whether or not gay marriage is legalized.

Don't homosexuals deserve to be treated with some decency?

And please recognise that religion is a belief, and not everyone shares the belief that God exists.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Marriage is a Christian institution. If you do no adhere to Christianity you would not want to be married. Homosexuals want to get married because they want to be in the public spotlight. Don't tell me differently because I won't believe it. Any self-respecting homosexual would accept a civil union because it has the same benefits as marriage, at least here in Canada. Homosexuals seem to be determined to undermine the beliefs of anyone opposes them for no real good reason that I can think of.

The institution of marriage has existed longer than Christianity. In fact, for the first 600 years of Christianity, the church wanted nothing to do with marriage which was a secular institution.

Moreover, civil unions in the United States only provide approximately 350 of the 1,400 benefits afforded to married couples. Why should same-sex couples who pay taxes settle for roughly 1/3 when everyone else gets a whole pie?

Furthermore, legalizing same-sex marriage does not affect the religious beliefs of anyone. Religious people will still be free to believe whatever they like about what a marriage is, while the government will be able to provide same-sex couples equal protection under the law.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Many religous people such as myself believe civil unions are wrong because they afford the same rights as marriage without the sanctity of God.

Tax breaks are of no concern. Living as equal individuals is at the heart of the matter. "Christian people" is nothing more than a false trumpet. And, you nulify your perspective the moment you bring reigion in to an argumet that is based in a nation that constitutionaly believes in a seperation of church and state. And, you can puke up all the "the founding fathers were christians" all you like...but they seem to have failed to have written that belief into the governing document. Not very "christian" of them, was it?

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Furthermore, legalizing same-sex marriage does not affect the religious beliefs of anyone.

Which is why I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why so many people complain about it. If it doesn't affect them, what business is it of theirs to complain?

Originally posted by PrincessMary
Which is why I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why so many people complain about it. If it doesn't affect them, what business is it of theirs to complain?

Well, but isn't the reasoning that if they don't work against sin that their God would refuse them?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, but isn't the reasoning that if they don't work against sin that their God would refuse them?

Those who have no religion do not believe in sin. They don't believe homosexuality is a sin, and have no God who would refuse them.

Originally posted by PrincessMary
Those who have no religion do not believe in sin. They don't believe homosexuality is a sin, and have no God who would refuse them. Yes, and that relates to my question how?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, but isn't the reasoning that if they don't work against sin that their God would refuse them?


Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes, and that relates to my question how?

I thought I did answer your question? Perhaps you could rephase it, as I seem to have misunderstood.

Don't christians believe it is their business because their God tells them to make the world they live in sin free?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Don't christians believe it is their business because their God tells them to make the world they live in sin free?

Christians can certainly believe it is their business, it doesn't mean it is right for them to go around telling us all how to live our lives. What about those who follow the Pagan religion? They're God, or Goddess, as you will, accepts homosexuality. This must mean it is the Pagan's business to tell us all that homosexuality is normal and natural. The two religions will clash. How do we decide which religion, if any, is right in their views?

Originally posted by PrincessMary
Christians can certainly believe it is their business, it doesn't mean it is right for them to go around telling us all how to live our lives. What about those who follow the Pagan religion? They're God, or Goddess, as you will, accepts homosexuality. This must mean it is the Pagan's business to tell us all that homosexuality is normal and natural. The two religions will clash. How do we decide which religion, if any, is right in their views?

Everyone decides for themself and then the majority does?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Everyone decides for themself and then the majority does?

I think we should all be free to decide whether or not homosexuality is wrong, or if gays and lesbians deserve the right to be married. I do not believe anyone should be forcing their beliefs on anyone. If you believe that homosexuality is wrong, that's fine, just don't preach about it. Same to those who believe homosexuality is normal. Everyone has the right to his or her opinion, what we don't have the right to is forcing our beliefs on another.

Originally posted by PrincessMary
I think we should all be free to decide whether or not homosexuality is wrong, or if gays and lesbians deserve the right to be married. I do not believe anyone should be forcing their beliefs on anyone. If you believe that homosexuality is wrong, that's fine, just don't preach about it. Same to those who believe homosexuality is normal. Everyone has the right to his or her opinion, what we don't have the right to is forcing our beliefs on another.

But you see that that is also oinly your opinion. And although I agree, someone else might believe that it is their duty even to voice their opinion and force others to agree. And why shoudl their opinion be less valid?

Originally posted by Bardock42
But you see that that is also oinly your opinion. And although I agree, someone else might believe that it is their duty even to voice their opinion and force others to agree. And why shoudl their opinion be less valid?

You have a point. I think we need to decide what is actually right. Is it right for people to force their beliefs on others? Would this be a good thing or a bad thing? Is it better for people to keep quiet about their opinions? Is this better than speaking out about it? Having someone force their beliefs on another will only cause trouble. The Government needs to look into it, and decide on an agreement which benifits both sides.

Originally posted by PrincessMary
You have a point. I think we need to decide what is actually right. Is it right for people to force their beliefs on others? Would this be a good thing or a bad thing? Is it better for people to keep quiet about their opinions? Is this better than speaking out about it? Having someone force their beliefs on another will only cause trouble. The Government needs to look into it, and decide on an agreement which benifits both sides.

Well, i don't see an agreement between people who think one shouldn't force their beliefs on others and those that do.

Also, how do you think we could be able to even find out what is right and what wrong?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Also, how do you think we could be able to even find out what is right and what wrong?

It is hard to know what is right and what is wrong. Many people believe that homosexuality is chosen. If it is chosen, would this mean that it is wrong? What if it isn't chosen? What if scientists can prove that there really is a homosexuality gene? Would this mean homosexuality is normal?

The reason I believe homosexuality to be normal, and not chosen, is simply because of what it is: Sexuality.

If people chose to be gay, people must then chose to be straight. It must work both ways. Why would people chose to be straight? Because they know they are straight, or because they believe that homosexuality is unnatural?

At which point in our lives do we chose our sexuality? When we reach legal age? In our early teens, we already have boyfriends/girlfriends, so we must already be fairly sure of our sexual identity. Do we stand at a crossroads at one stage in our lives, and contemplate which path to follow? The path to homosexuality, or the path to heterosexuality? A homosexual will not chose the heterosexual path, because heterosexual is something they are not, and never will be. Likewise for heterosexuals.

What argument can religion come up with to explain their opinion that homosexuality is unnatural and chosen? So far, all I have heard is 'The Bible says it is wrong, and people chose to be gay', without backing up any of their claims. Maybe you can.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Many religous people such as myself believe civil unions are wrong because they afford the same rights as marriage without the sanctity of God.
I say let the **** get their tax breaks because no matter what they believe, they will be discriminated against for their sexuality whether or not gay marriage is legalized.
I' d appreciate it if you didn' t avail yourself of the offensive and derogatory term *** or ****!

Originally posted by Storm
I' d appreciate it if you didn' t avail yourself of the offensive and derogatory term *** or ****!

I agree. '***' is a derogatory term to describe gay men. It's offensive. Some lesbian women find the term 'dyke' offensive.

Originally posted by Storm
I' d appreciate it if you didn' t avail yourself of the offensive and derogatory term *** or ****!

Admit it...you just wanted to use *** and **** yourself.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a34/pokeDApoopy/captainobvious.gif

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
But Eis, you have to know yourself well enought to know what turns you on and what doesn't. Or with whom you can sometimes picture yourself getting old.
When I was 8 I loved pickles, I ate pickles everyday. Now I hate them, I can't stand the smell. People change, how can we be so hypocrital by calling Sithsaber close minded if we ourselves completely believe homosexuality and bisexuality are both genetical, knowing there is no scientific proof to prove this.

All I'm saying is people should really keep an open mind, if you think homosexuality is genetic or otherwise, that's great but if there is no proof to back it up then it's logical to accept that it may not be so.

But, you're missing my point. I wasn't sexually attracted to the WOMAN, I was sexually attracted to teh person who possesed that personality. There was little romance involved in my high school relationships...or any one's high school relationships for that matter.


I understand. But in order to say that you were fully attracted to her, you had to be both emotionally AND physically attracted. If you lacked the physical attraction, then you were not entirely attracted to her.

If her body serves an "obstacle" to you, then you were not fully attracted to her.

Therefore you were not attracted to women, so you are not bisexual. You are gay.







And I might add that those relationships occured based solely on my desire to fit in as a person, not from my desire.


Then they did not count.



If my desires were the deciding factor, then I would have been sleeping with my best friend at the time. (No Burl, it wasn't Juan)

What do you mean here, I'm lost ?

When I was 8 I loved pickles, I ate pickles everyday. Now I hate them, I can't stand the smell.

HORRIBLE EXAMPLE

There are MASSIVE DIFFERENCES between your taste in food and your sexual attractions. MAJOR...why bother with this kind of analogy?



People change, how can we be so hypocrital by calling Sithsaber close minded if we ourselves completely believe homosexuality and bisexuality are both genetical, knowing there is no scientific proof to prove this.

Genetic, as in born with? No there's no proof. A PHYSICAL characteristic as well as a mental one ? Yes theres proof. They have done experiments on a gay sheep which showed thats its cerebrum and sexual gland was totally different than that of a straight sheep's. The scientist herself stated that once this came into development, its FIXED....theres no changing it.

You would have to RE ARRANGE the structure of the BRAIN to change one's sexuality.

Yes, Sithsaber is a hypocrit and his opinion is INVALID...he is not gay, therefore he would never speak for a gay person, or claim to know anything about thier sexuality first hand.




All I'm saying is people should really keep an open mind, if you think homosexuality is genetic or otherwise, that's great but if there is no proof to back it up then it's logical to accept that it may not be so.


But most debators have not been using logic to back this up, only religious doctrine.

And you guys tend to ignore any Logic that would support the idea that homosexuality, like heterosexuality, is FIXED and irreversible.

I already gave you proof with my sheep example....i will not try to change your mind any further if you are not convinced.

Sexual attraction, taste in food... It call comes back to: Likes. I changed my likes.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
When I was 8 I loved pickles, I ate pickles everyday. Now I hate them, I can't stand the smell.

HORRIBLE EXAMPLE

There are MASSIVE DIFFERENCES between your taste in food and your sexual attractions. MAJOR...why bother with this kind of analogy?



People change, how can we be so hypocrital by calling Sithsaber close minded if we ourselves completely believe homosexuality and bisexuality are both genetical, knowing there is no scientific proof to prove this.

Genetic, as in born with? No there's no proof. A PHYSICAL characteristic as well as a mental one ? Yes theres proof. They have done experiments on a gay sheep which showed thats its cerebrum and sexual gland was totally different than that of a straight sheep's. The scientist herself stated that once this came into development, its FIXED....theres no changing it.

You would have to RE ARRANGE the structure of the BRAIN to change one's sexuality.

Yes, Sithsaber is a hypocrit and his opinion is INVALID...he is not gay, therefore he would never speak for a gay person, or claim to know anything about thier sexuality first hand.




All I'm saying is people should really keep an open mind, if you think homosexuality is genetic or otherwise, that's great but if there is no proof to back it up then it's logical to accept that it may not be so.


But most debators have not been using logic to back this up, only religious doctrine.

And you guys tend to ignore any Logic that would support the idea that homosexuality, like heterosexuality, is FIXED and irreversible.

I already gave you proof with my sheep example....i will not try to change your mind any further if you are not convinced.
I'm sorry but to base your entire sexual orentation ideology on the sheep studies (which I would love a link of, since I have never heard the term "sexual gland" seems a bit... naive to me. Maybe it's enough for you but until scientific studies prove that homosexuality is genetic I will open my mind to all possibilites.


This post does seem quite hypocrital about now.


They also gave us links of men that were active members in the 'gay scene' that decided to change their lifestyles and are now happily married and even have children.
We immediatly roll our eyes and think "self-hating christian" but how do we know he really does like women now? That's what I mean, we are just too sure about this "homosexuality is genetic" issue. We have to be open minded.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I already gave you proof with my sheep example....i will not try to change your mind any further if you are not convinced.
As I have posted before. There are notable differences between the physiology of a heterosexual male and a homosexual male, but conclusive proof of a definite genetic component of sexual orientation is currently still absent. In the meanwhile, researchers continue to search.

The human genome project performed within your nation was successful in mapping the 25 000 (much lower than anticipated) genes of the human body. It was found that none control the behavioral traits, but only physical development and appearance. There is NO homosexual gene. Homosexuality is the result of experience through childhood through to sexual maturity. It is therefore deeply imbedded in the minds of the person, but is reversible, though it may be very unlikely that they could be reversed even through intense therapy.

Originally posted by Eis
When I was 8 I loved pickles, I ate pickles everyday. Now I hate them, I can't stand the smell. People change, how can we be so hypocrital by calling Sithsaber close minded if we ourselves completely believe homosexuality and bisexuality are both genetical, knowing there is no scientific proof to prove this.

All I'm saying is people should really keep an open mind, if you think homosexuality is genetic or otherwise, that's great but if there is no proof to back it up then it's logical to accept that it may not be so.

"Proof to prove" is all well and good. But, I know myself. It took a few years to figure myself out, but I know very well about myself. I don't know from gay sheep, but I know me. When I was 8 I watched He-Man...thought it was the greatest show ever. Now when I watch it, it seem childish and inane. I grew up. But, when I was 8 I liked boys...now that I'm 26, I still like boys. I used to love Cool Ranch Doritos, now the smell of them makes my stomach turn.

Perhaps you are in tune with yourself enough to know you won't limit your options to simply being gay or simply being straight. I addressed the fact that I've had relationships with women. But I think what must be considered in all of this, is the emotion involved in a relationship between two people. Homosexuality, as you know, isn't all about sex. Being gay involves the emotions behind your interaction with another person. If it was just about sex, then we could believe what Whob and Sithsabre say...that it is giving in to a desire to "sin". That it represents human excess. That it can be compared to beastiality or incest. But it isn't just about sex. And people who denounce it are doing just that, looking only at the physical aspect of it. But being gay is much more complex. It's exactly like being straight. There are emotional attachments to people, care, concern, anger, frustration, fear... It's not all about what makes you cum. And, for me, I've always known what I wanted. I might not have been honest with others, but I've always been honest with myself. I can't address the concept of "finding out" or "figuring out" I was gay. I've known for a very long time. I've never denied it to myself, but I have denied it to others. But that doesn't change what I am.

And, there is a lot of evidence for the genetic cauaslity. It isn't absolute and far from concrete...but it's there. And I'm not sure how there could be physical proof of it being a choice made on any conscious level, since that isn't physical.

As for the guy who went straight and "cleaned up" his act, as society becomes more and more open minded and accepting of the situation, I think you'll see that happen less and less. I'm also dubious of any "evidence" that comes from christian conservative web sites.

Originally posted by Nellinator
The human genome project performed within your nation was successful in mapping the 25 000 (much lower than anticipated) genes of the human body. It was found that none control the behavioral traits, but only physical development and appearance. There is NO homosexual gene. Homosexuality is the result of experience through childhood through to sexual maturity. It is therefore deeply imbedded in the minds of the person, but is reversible, though it may be very unlikely that they could be reversed even through intense therapy.

As Storm pointed out, there are many physiological differences between the two males. And, if genetics govern physical development, then how far behind that notion can be the role of genes? If a part of my brain develops differently from my straight brother's, did I decide for that to happen? And when this development, or lack of, is found across the board in one sexual orientation v. another, then did I choose for that to be the case at some point?

Or perhaps we can take the Sithsabre approach and say that region of my brain developed differently because my father molested me when I was too young to remember it.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
"Proof to prove" is all well and good. But, I know myself. It took a few years to figure myself out, but I know very well about myself. I don't know from gay sheep, but I know me. When I was 8 I watched He-Man...thought it was the greatest show ever. Now when I watch it, it seem childish and inane. I grew up. But, when I was 8 I liked boys...now that I'm 26, I still like boys. I used to love Cool Ranch Doritos, now the smell of them makes my stomach turn.

Perhaps you are in tune with yourself enough to know you won't limit your options to simply being gay or simply being straight. I addressed the fact that I've had relationships with women. But I think what must be considered in all of this, is the emotion involved in a relationship between two people. Homosexuality, as you know, isn't all about sex. Being gay involves the emotions behind your interaction with another person. If it was just about sex, then we could believe what Whob and Sithsabre say...that it is giving in to a desire to "sin". That it represents human excess. That it can be compared to beastiality or incest. But it isn't just about sex. And people who denounce it are doing just that, looking only at the physical aspect of it. But being gay is much more complex. It's exactly like being straight. There are emotional attachments to people, care, concern, anger, frustration, fear... It's not all about what makes you cum. And, for me, I've always known what I wanted. I might not have been honest with others, but I've always been honest with myself. I can't address the concept of "finding out" or "figuring out" I was gay. I've known for a very long time. I've never denied it to myself, but I have denied it to others. But that doesn't change what I am.

And, there is a lot of evidence for the genetic cauaslity. It isn't absolute and far from concrete...but it's there. And I'm not sure how there could be physical proof of it being a choice made on any conscious level, since that isn't physical.

As for the guy who went straight and "cleaned up" his act, as society becomes more and more open minded and accepting of the situation, I think you'll see that happen less and less. I'm also dubious of any "evidence" that comes from christian conservative web sites.
Until I was like 11 or something I never thought of other males in a sexual way as I did with women. When I first started masturbating I would only think about women, I loved women. A couple of years later I started to masturbate thinking about men as well... I liked it and I completely stopped thinking about women when doing it. After a while I was completely not attracted to females... they simply didn't turn me on, AT ALL.
In the last month or so I realized I was still sometimes attracted to women, but mostly men so I still label myself as gay. So my homosexuality never was from the begining...

Now for the mentally challenged I'm not a self-hating homosexual, I accepted I liked men some time ago, I came out to my friends, etc. But I still like to have the benefit of the doubt on the origin of my homosexuality and sexual orentation in general. Which is something I think we should all have, the doubt.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
As Storm pointed out, there are many physiological differences between the two males. And, if genetics govern physical development, then how far behind that notion can be the role of genes? If a part of my brain develops differently from my straight brother's, did I decide for that to happen? And when this development, or lack of, is found across the board in one sexual orientation v. another, then did I choose for that to be the case at some point?

Or perhaps we can take the Sithsabre approach and say that region of my brain developed differently because my father molested me when I was too young to remember it.

Genes merely ensure that you have a brain and that its parts are within reasonable proportions. From then on the experiences of your life are collected in the cerebrum where you form your personality based on the beliefs you have been given by those around you and from the memories you possess that would influence this personality. This is why brain surgery , which can damage the cerbral cortex, can cause changes in personality.

Originally posted by Eis
When I was 8 I loved pickles, I ate pickles everyday. Now I hate them, I can't stand the smell. People change, how can we be so hypocrital by calling Sithsaber close minded if we ourselves completely believe homosexuality and bisexuality are both genetical, knowing there is no scientific proof to prove this.

All I'm saying is people should really keep an open mind, if you think homosexuality is genetic or otherwise, that's great but if there is no proof to back it up then it's logical to accept that it may not be so.

There is over 30 years of scientific research that sexual orientation is an immutable characteristic.

Homosexuals are biologically different from heterosexuals, i.e. the brain structure, inner-ear, and fingerprints of homosexuals are different than those of heterosexuals, and homosexuals are genetically different from heterosexuals, i.e. homosexuals share a genetic marker and stretches of DNA that are not shared by heterosexuals.

If you would like to debate the issue further, you can do so in the "Homosexuality: Chosen or Genetic?" thread.

Originally posted by Eis
Until I was like 11 or something I never thought of other males in a sexual way as I did with women.


So my homosexuality never was from the begining...

Now for the mentally challenged I'm not a self-hating homosexual, I accepted I liked men some time ago, I came out to my friends, etc. But I still like to have the benefit of the doubt on the origin of my homosexuality and sexual orentation in general. Which is something I think we should all have, the doubt.

As as I said:

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I can't address the concept of "finding out" or "figuring out" I was gay. I've known for a very long time.

I've never known any other way to be. I don't think you're self hating, nor am I arguing the point because I think you're wrong. We are just two different people who have experienced life in two different ways. I remember wanting to find women attractive, wanting to be like everyone else. But, the mind goes where it wants to when you're masturbating.

And understand I'm not really arguing with you, just sharing my experiences. I'm just no good at being ambiguous, on this subject or any other.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Genes merely ensure that you have a brain and that its parts are within reasonable proportions. From then on the experiences of your life are collected in the cerebrum where you form your personality based on the beliefs you have been given by those around you and from the memories you possess that would influence this personality. This is why brain surgery , which can damage the cerbral cortex, can cause changes in personality.

Genes don't really ensure anything. If the body was built on one repetative gene, that might be the case. But, as it is, genes turn on and off when needed. So, while genes ensure that you grow a brain, they might also ensure you have an extra finger or one testicle.

And what you say about teh brain storing memories etc and that is the basis for your personality, you're right. But I think that has more to do with issues like what I like to do during sex, not which gender I want to have that sex with.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
There is over 30 years of scientific research that sexual orientation is an immutable characteristic.

Homosexuals are biologically different from heterosexuals, i.e. the brain structure, inner-ear, and fingerprints of homosexuals are different than those of heterosexuals, and homosexuals are genetically different from heterosexuals, i.e. homosexuals share a genetic marker and stretches of DNA that are not shared by heterosexuals.

If you would like to debate the issue further, you can do so in the "Homosexuality: Chosen or Genetic?" thread.
You're right, it is a bit off topic.

However, if those studies are indeed accurate, then how can there be room for debate? How can there even be a thread on the topic. Are there loopholes to the studies?

Until I was like 11 or something I never thought of other males in a sexual way as I did with women. When I first started masturbating I would only think about women, I loved women. A couple of years later I started to masturbate thinking about men as well... I liked it and I completely stopped thinking about women when doing it. After a while I was completely not attracted to females... they simply didn't turn me on, AT ALL.



Similiar situation to me. When i was young i was only interested romantically in women. I did like men a little bit, but not as much as women.

As i got older i sorta stopped liking women as much, and started to like men more.

WHY? i duno

I like both today. But I like men so much better.

Waht caused the change? Who knows..but i dont identify myself as Gay or Straight. I identify as bisexual.

If you want to go by LABELS, then perhaps the entirety of your situation would count as bisexuality.


In Capt Fantastic's case however, there was no change.

Everyone's brain works differently. MAYBE it is possible for SOME people to change thier sexuality, but probably impossible for others.





In the last month or so I realized I was still sometimes attracted to women, but mostly men so I still label myself as gay. So my homosexuality never was from the begining...


You're bisexual. Not homosexual. Bisexuality comes in ALL forms, skewed more towards men, more towards women, or 50/50.



You're not really Gay.









Now for the mentally challenged I'm not a self-hating homosexual, I accepted I liked men some time ago, I came out to my friends, etc. But I still like to have the benefit of the doubt on the origin of my homosexuality and sexual orentation in general. Which is something I think we should all have, the doubt.


Again according to everything you have shared with us, i beleive you are bisexual. I have a VERY SIMILIAR situation to yours, and i identify myself as bisexual, not gay.

Sorry bro, from WHAT you've said, i thnk you are bisexual not gay.

No I know, but it's just, were homosexuality genetic then how was it possible for me to not be attracted to other males in my youth. (1 - 11)

Originally posted by Eis
Are there loopholes to the studies?