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Is Vader truely the strongest Force user?

Y
E
S

No. If he hadn't been chopped to pieces, then yes, but he was crippled.

Being chopped up only affected him a little force wise, what does the force have to do with your body's condition or size.(Yoda) The only thing that prevented him from being the strongest Jedi ever was not being a Jedi and becoming a sith.

The fact that he was 'more machine' than man makes him much weaker.

When Obi Wan said that he didn't just mean physically you know.

The force runs throu the living things. Since almost half of him wasn't living, I think it really effected him force wise.

Yes he was, Sidious said so...

Yes vader is mentally much stupider after his accident

Yah... He may be strong, but he's not that smart.

Originally posted by AmrothSkywalker
Being chopped up only affected him a little force wise, what does the force have to do with your body's condition or size.(Yoda) The only thing that prevented him from being the strongest Jedi ever was not being a Jedi and becoming a sith.

When he was chopped up he:

1. lost a crapload of midichlorians. And according to the wonderful GL logic, midichlorians - force power
2. lost a crapload of agility. Now, this is mostly because of the time when the OT was made, and special FX and CGI weren't so big. I mean, if it were to be totally remade, i'm sure Gen. Grievous would be a little pu$$y compared to what Vader could do. Jumping around, using his lightsaber even better maybe....
3. lost the potential to use force lightning. I read somewhere (not supershadow) that since he has metal arms and hands, he can't channel force lightning or it would kill him (much like it does when Sids does it)

~wickerman~

Originally posted by Stealth Agent
Yes vader is mentally much stupider after his accident

More stupid than in ROTS.....very unlikely.....

Originally posted by Stealth Agent
stupider


Oh the irony of it all

~wickerman~

I agree with the agility thing because of technology and machineness. But the force lightning topic was discussed like forever in other threads and I think that force lightning was just never taught to Vader by Palps because he didn't want to be overthrown like he did to his master. Using lightning doesn't need to come out of your hands just like any other force power it just helps in guiding its direction. Think about it, if force lightning literally came out of your hands they would get fried. Dude midi-chlorians aren't about how much blood or big you are Yoda had more midi-chlorians than everyone else(Except Anakin) didn't he? Midi-chlorians are like genetics they are passed on through living cells. Luke would have had half or less of the midi-chlorian count of Vader, and why did he beat him? becasue he made more potential out of himself then Anakin/Vader he was a true Jedi with no conflictions like his father. Midi-chlorians are NOT a count of all the cells in your body. When QGJ asks for a midi-chlorian count from Obi-Wan all he gets is a count of how many midi-chlorians are in ONE cell, midi-chlorians have often been related to mitochondria in our own body because of many reasons one including they are the one of the smallest things in our body and 20,000 Midi-chlorians(How many Obi-Wan said Anakin had) in one cell is really not too crazy because thousands of mitochondria are packed into our body. Coming to the point of it all 1. midi-chlorians are measured only by single cell's and concern only force potential 2. Luke made more of his potential than Vader did that's why he beat and couldn't have had more midi-chlorians than Vader 3. Force lightning does not come literally out of your hands so Vader never learned it or we just never see him use it and 4. Vader only lost movement after his accident, any force power he lost or seemed to lose was because he turned to the dark side.

Vader is the strongest force user, second only to Luke. This is How I think the jedi/sith go in order of strength of force and saber technique

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Vader (In and out of suit, it doesn't matter)
3. Darth Sidious
4. Yoda
5. Mace Windu
6. Obi Wan
...

With the exception of one, Darth Vader is indeed the most powerful of all force users

mmmm, would't Yoda be the first? About 400 years of the force and training and what not.

I want to know how anyone can possibly think Luke is the strongest force user.

He was set up by his "mentors" to face sidious. His mentors counted on Vader's compassion, without it, Luke dies in a cloud of ozone.

Maybe your talking about the EU which does not count.

I could accept anakin, or vader in the suit or yoda or sidious. Thats about it.

Lukes a farmboy, hes weak anyone one of us could of taken him,

Originally posted by viking12344
I want to know how anyone can possibly think Luke is the strongest force user.

He was set up by his "mentors" to face sidious. His mentors counted on Vader's compassion, without it, Luke dies in a cloud of ozone.



Vader/Anakin was the Chosen One. Maybe Yoda and Obi knew that he would still destroy the Sith.

I also think your forgetting NJO Luke.

He's the chosen one, so yes, by default he is the most powerful force user. Don't give me that machine bullshit either, he's the ****in chosen one, he has to be the most powerful force user in order to hold that position.

no, by default he's the one that will bring ballance to the Force.
Never was there any mentioning of him having to be the best Jedi in order to do this and he clearly wasn't. He's a good pilot and swordsman yes, but he has a temper, Jedi don't have that.

And yes, you DO have to give that "machine bullshit"! You just missed the entire point of the star wars movies! Anakin was the one that brought balance, not Vader.
As OB1 says "he's more machine now than human...", as far as we know only humans can use the Force thanks to the midichlorians. So a machine can't use the Force, and Vader clearly is more of that than human

i dont think vader would be even close to the agility of grievous. grievous was completly mechanical apart from some organs. his entire body was designed for agility. vader however was designed so that the mechanical parts would allow the organic to survive, his legs are half and half, his thigh strength wouldnt come close to grievous'. grievous wasnt force sensitice so his organic tissue could be stripped with no negitive combat effects, vaders living tissue needed to be conserved to allow him to maintian his force abilities.

grievous was built as a droid supporting a cunning sentient. vader was a powerful force user that was patched up with cybernetics. they could have overhalled him like grievous but hed lose almost all his force powers. not a viable option when hes supposed to be a sith lord. my opinion anyway.

vader would have been stronger had he not had his accident. he told luke that "together we can overthrow the emperor" not "i can overthrow the emperor and you can join me" i dont think intention is a problem, he was ready to kill palpatine in ep 3 so he obviously doesnt have any serious emotional ties to him. plus i think his mechanical nature makes him alot more suceptible to force lightening. in ep 3 he hadnt reached his potential and wasnt the strongest force user, and after that he could never reach it due to his injuries. thats how i always saw it anyway.

No, I am the most powerful Force user.

Originally posted by yerssot
no, by default he's the one that will bring ballance to the Force.
Never was there any mentioning of him having to be the best Jedi in order to do this and he clearly wasn't. He's a good pilot and swordsman yes, but he has a temper, Jedi don't have that.

And yes, you DO have to give that "machine bullshit"! You just missed the entire point of the star wars movies! Anakin was the one that brought balance, not Vader.
As OB1 says "he's more machine now than human...", as far as we know only humans can use the Force thanks to the midichlorians. So a machine can't use the Force, and Vader clearly is more of that than human

no no no...thats complete crap. The gay ass midicholrian crap is a ratio, NOT a size based count, otherwise EVERYONE bigger than yoda would more powerful...so there goes that theory. As far as being more machine than man, OB1 was trying to keep luke angry at vader and wanting to defeat him. Just cause he has mechanical limbs, PARTIAL mechanical limbs, doesnt make him less of a person.

In that case, if you see a guy, say a war veteran, with no legs and a missing arm in a wheelchair, are you gonna say he's more machine than man? Same princable. They both use types of machines to be mobile and get around. Anakin/Vader was the most powerful force user ever, he just lost both fights due to emotion, in OB1's case - blinding fury/hatred,and in Lukes case, as odd as it seems - a father's love. He could have killed luke whenever he wanted. He displayed that on Bespin. Did you notice he didnt even touch luke until luke tapped his arm, then 4 seconds later he lops his had off. He could have hit Luke with that throwing saber thing had he wanted, but he just wanted him down and wanted to look good in from of palps. He would hav owned GG with force powers rather than just agility...he's just smarter than that. heres my list for ya:

1. Anakin/Vader
2.Luke
3.Sidious
4.Yoda
5.OB1
6. Mace

More machine than man in the case that he's got mechanical body parts, covered in a machine, and would obey his superior's orders without a whim--like a machine.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
heres my list for ya:

1. Anakin/Vader
2.Luke
3.Sidious
4.Yoda
5.OB1
6. Mace


How is Yoda 4th? He should be first. Does no one on these mindless boards take into consideration that Yoda, at death, is over, what was it? 900? This "Chosen one" stuff is complete and utter crap, you can have a million midiclohirans and not have ANY experience. But Yoda, he's been on the highest order of the Jedi Masters for well over 8 centuries, that's GOT to say something. I'm not trying to be a fanboy, just stating the obvious.

Anakin was the highest force potential, he is not the greatest force user, Nihilus or Ragnos win that.

Originally posted by SS_181st_Snow
How is Yoda 4th? He should be first. Does no one on these mindless boards take into consideration that Yoda, at death, is over, what was it? 900? This "Chosen one" stuff is complete and utter crap, you can have a million midiclohirans and not have ANY experience. But Yoda, he's been on the highest order of the Jedi Masters for well over 8 centuries, that's GOT to say something. I'm not trying to be a fanboy, just stating the obvious.

I can see why you would say that BUT...who did Yoda lose to? Sidious.
Also i read somewhere in a magazine that Sidious was 200% more powerful that yoda and Anakin was 20% stronger that Sidious. Then it was said by someone in the Lucas camp, maybe big G himself, that at the time of ROTJ Luke was the strongest force user. THATS what i based that on.

"if so powerful he is, then why kicked was his ass?"

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I can see why you would say that BUT...who did Yoda lose to? Sidious.
Also i read somewhere in a magazine that Sidious was 200% more powerful that yoda and Anakin was 20% stronger that Sidious. Then it was said by someone in the Lucas camp, maybe big G himself, that at the time of ROTJ Luke was the strongest force user. THATS what i based that on.

"if so powerful he is, then why kicked was his ass?"

What complete and utter bullshit. The fight between Yoda and Sidious, Sidious won but only because the side of the senate pod Sidious was on had railings. Yoda would beat Palpatine on flat ground.

Not only that, stop making things up. Oh and stop beimg an Anakin fanboy. "i read somewhere", where? In the cesspit that passes for your mind?

first off *****, i have better things to do than waste my time away being a "fanboy", noob. What would i POSSIBLY have to gain, on a INTERNET FORUM, by making shit up? Actually, someone posted that on here FROM A MAGAZINE, and then after seeing it here, i went to go find the magazine that it was stated in. And I'm not the only person to hear of that either.

Before you try to get up and sit at the grown up table sweetheart, find out what YOU'RE talking about first. Since you seem to think YOU'RE on such a higher intellectual plateau, maybe you should look in to getting some common sense to go along with your smart ass mouth.

Anakin wasn't the most powerful force user. He was the chosen one. The youngling who says "master skywalker, there's too many of them" could have driven a lightsaber through sidious at the moment that he was shooting lightning at mace. That wouldn't have made him the most powerful, just the one who destroyed the sith and brought balance to the force. Anakin was good. I think the duel proves at least to a point that Obi Wan was better. He won, not only once, but several time if you count the deleted scenes. He never even came all that close to losing. He had a much easier time with Anakin than Sidious did with Mace. Yoda was prob. more powerful than any of them really. Which really makes me wonder, why run away and hide? at the very least obi and yoda should have helped the Rebel Alliance. I mean, a Jedi or two can go a long way in battles against clone troopers!

But like PVS said or maybe it was Ush, its like tennis, the best one doesn't always win. It the bonus features, Nick Gilliard said Anakin was a level 9 as far as swordsmanship while OB1 was and 8, being meaning that anakin was better. OB1 got down off his high horse to tell Anakin he was stronger and wiser...GRANTED, i would say that "Anakin" was or would become more powerful than "Vader", but at that point Ob1 acknowledged he was in fact better, as Qui Gon did to him, and i don't believe that to be smoke blown up their asses. Everyone rants on about the fact that Yoda is like 850 years old and has been a practitioner of the force for that long....but what about the fact that he was bested by someone far younger? And then they wanna say "Yoda woulda won on a level ground fight." BUT THATS HOW THEY STARTED OUT!!!! Yoda wouldn't have ran away, or "gone into exile", if he didn't know that he couldn't win. Ob1 beat Anakin with EXPERIENCE, not power or skill. I guess some people can classify experience as skill, but i mean skill as far as using the force. GL said BEFORE the movie even came out, that at the time of Ep3, Anakin is more powerful that OB1, but OB1 has more.......thats right, EXPERIENCE. That was actually a big topic on here for a few months.

Everyone wants to say "oh where did you see or hear this?", as a way to try, NOT to prove their point, but to DISprove my point. But how many magazines, tv interviews, web docs, regular documentaries, news articles, and special features have mentioned Star Wars? COUNTLESS amounts. So to pin point exactly where you heard or read something MONTHS ago, is not only virtually impossible, but it's ludicrous to even conceive that notion. Now i believe what i believe about the ranking of the most powerful force users, and thats all. Everyone here is entitled to their own opinion until GL comes out and gives his own "official" list.

But yes i see what you're saying about them helping the rebels and how that would have helped, but something you stated yourself is...yoda's in hiding, and its for a reason. He said himself that he failed and must hide.
But if they did stay with the rebels, the emperor and Vader would have felt the "tremors in the force" that would be created by their presence. Yoda was safe on Degobah due to all the life forms that have the force flowing thru them, and OB1 was safe on Tatooine due to the fact that Anakin..oops i mean Vader, hates that place due to sand, his slave childhood, his mothers death, etc.

Why do you have something to gain? A misguided sense of respect?

Anyway, that article you got is bogus. Anakin and Luke are not stronger than Yoda, period.

oh ok i see, so when you were with GL helping create Star Wars, how much input did you have? Im sure you're close personal friends with him and you know more about SW than even him, but when youre wrong, youre wrong....period. But whatever, believe what you will...im done arguing with you.

Do you even have an ounce of common sense. Give me an example where Luke or Anakin are better than Yoda.

Ah, Darth Subjekt. I see the unreasoning side of the Force is still strong with you.

I can see why you would say that BUT...who did Yoda lose to? Sidious.

Uh, ROTS script says Yoda pwned Sidious in lightsaber combat in under a few minutes. This scene wasn't shown in the final version, but it still happened, hence why Sidious was saberless at a certain point. Also, Yoda redirected Sidious' Force lightning at point blank range, defeating Sidious in the energy tug of war. Yoda simply didn't have a handhold at that point. Falling down that far and without having a lightsaber he could not reasonably climb back up and finish the fight. It was circumstance, not true skill on Sidious' part. Accept this and move on.


Also i read somewhere in a magazine that Sidious was 200% more powerful that yoda and Anakin was 20% stronger that Sidious.

Force potential, not overall power. This is not DBZ; characters do not have power levels. GL gave a ballpark figure on Anakin's Force power potential because it's something we'll never see. He got pwned by Obi-Wan, whom he couldn't defeat in a Force push match. Now, Dooku whupped Obi in Force powers (In ROTS, he choked him easily) and Anakin couldn't defeat Obi-Wan in Force powers. SO by your logic, Dooku >Obi-Wan = Anakin > Yoda. Right?

Uh, wrong.


Then it was said by someone in the Lucas camp, maybe big G himself, that at the time of ROTJ Luke was the strongest force user. THATS what i based that on.

"if so powerful he is, then why kicked was his ass?"

ROTJ Luke is the strongest Force user? LMFAO!

Is this why he writhed and suffered under Sidious' lightning while Yoda caught it with his BARE HANDS? Please... don't be silly.

Ok, can we cut out the bashing and flaming please?

And logic or otherwise, GL has confirmed that Vader became less powerful with the Force due to his cybernisation, so there it is.

And it is intimated that the Chosen One is indeed prophecised to be the most powerful force user, because that is how QGJ recognised him.

1.) Anakin
2.) Sidious
3.) Yoda
4.) Obi-Wan
5.) Luke

The only reason every Jedi known to the Star Wars galaxy isn't between Obi-Wan and Luke is because they're either ranked higher or they all died. I personally think Luke is pathetic. Anakin was the strongest Force user ever and his son was barely trained. There's no way Luke would have stood up to any half-decent Jedi/Sith. Why do you think the Emperor whooped his a$$? Whoever has Luke ranked higher than the Emperor seriously needs to watch the movies again.

He wasn't the strongest force user ever, he had the highest force potential ever. Two different things.

Originally posted by Lord Matreid
Yah... He may be strong, but he's not that smart.
He's not that smart? Vader was an excellent leader and ruthless and the rebels feared him.

Originally posted by Jack O'Neil
He's not that smart? Vader was an excellent leader and ruthless and the rebels feared him.

This is rather subjective, really.

Vader was smart, but had no common sense and was lacking in wisdom.

As for being an excellent leader, he once was a general in the Clone Wars, but after ROTS he is merely the Emperor's voice and presence abroad. He does not lead troops like a real "excellent leader" would, and he tends to kill talented officers at a whim. Hardly redeeming.

Second, ruthless (like everything else you posted up there in an attempt to save Vader's KMC image) doesn't mean smart. Dogs can be ruthless.

And the rebels didn't fear him any more than they feared Tarkin. In fact, Leia pretty much showed how much fear both instilled in her, which was NONE.

I don't recall any Rebel troops wetting their pants because Vader was around. Hell, even Han Solo first thing tried to shoot the guy.

Since when was Anakin a general?

Yeah I thought he was Commander.

Did Anakin even have a rank? I know Luke was a Commander but I don't think Anakin held any sort of rank.

Jedi Trial.

you forget that in shadows of the empire vader is very near to fully healing himself with the force he is still potentially the strongest force sensitive his midi chlorien count does equal or even beat master yodas so potentially with time he would have become the greatest and most powerful jedi if he didnt fall

wow.....can you add some punctuation marks next time? That's one long ass sentence. But never the less, Shadows of the Empire is EU and not considered canon.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
wow.....can you add some punctuation marks next time? That's one long ass sentence. But never the less, Shadows of the Empire is EU and not considered canon.

Wow, can you capitalise the first letter in your sentence please?

"Pride cometh before a fall."

Originally posted by Ianus
Is this why he writhed and suffered under Sidious' lightning while Yoda caught it with his BARE HANDS? Please... don't be silly.

The same would happen to Yoda if he wasn't fighting Sidious.

"I will not fight you."
Luke was hoping that through seeing himself suffer, Anankin would remerge.

P.S.-Don't know what this helps with but Luke lasted a lot longer against Sidious' lightning then Mace did. That short burst of lightning killed Mce before he hit the ground.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
The same would happen to Yoda if he wasn't fighting Sidious.

"I will not fight you."
Luke was hoping that through seeing himself suffer, Anankin would remerge.

P.S.-Don't know what this helps with but Luke lasted a lot longer against Sidious' lightning then Mace did. That short burst of lightning killed Mce before he hit the ground.

Palpatine was aiming to torture Luke, not kill him. Whereas he was trying to kill Windu.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
The same would happen to Yoda if he wasn't fighting Sidious.

"I will not fight you."
Luke was hoping that through seeing himself suffer, Anankin would remerge.

P.S.-Don't know what this helps with but Luke lasted a lot longer against Sidious' lightning then Mace did. That short burst of lightning killed Mce before he hit the ground.

Why do you think the lightning killed mace? Lightning didn't kill anybody in the movies that I can see. I would think that falling killed mace, since he was still screaming when he fell.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Palpatine was aiming to torture Luke, not kill him. Whereas he was trying to kill Windu.

yea that line, "now young skywalker, you will die." kind of threw us off at first, but now that you said it, its crystal clear that he didn't want to kill him.

p.s. thanks for the grammer lesson.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
yea that line, "now young skywalker, you will die." kind of threw us off at first, but now that you said it, its crystal clear that he didn't want to kill him.

p.s. thanks for the grammer lesson.

That's okay. If you need more, just ask me.

Anyway, look at Palpatine's face, he looks like he wants to toy with Luke, not kill him. And then he says "Only now at the end do you understand", then he's about to zap Luke with his full power and Vader picks him up and throws him down the reactor core.

Yeah, it's pretty obvious to people with eyes AND brains that Sidious wasn't trying to kill him until he said "And now, Skywalker.... you will die."

Jollyjim:
That's pure speculation, you've no idea if Mace died from the lightning or the fall.

Others:
It was Obi-Wan who was the general.

'General Kenobi, the negotiator...'

- Grievous.

When GL said Luke was the most powerful at the time of ROTJ, I think he was referring to JEDI, not Sith. It seems clear Palpatine is the most poweful Sith. And yeah, if Palpatine wasn't the more poweful at the time of ROTS, why would Yoda need to go into hiding? It seems clear that he and Obi Wan had to wait for the new hope (namely Luke) to come to fruition before taking on the Emperor again. Anakin/Vader has the highest midi-chlorian count, but he is physically messed up at the end of ROTS, (which is why Palpatine is eager to take on Luke as new apprentice). Finally, there are many different factors as to why a lesser Jedi or Sith might win a fight to a more powerful one. One might be a father's love, or the unexpected. The Emperor's weakness/ blindness is that he can't see the good in Vader/ Anakin, but Luke can; and that is Palpatine's undoing. So he gets king-hit. Obi Wan and Yoda are waiting for Luke to reach his full power so they can destroy the Emperor and Vader. The only mystery is why Yoda would have to depend on Luke for that? (even him accompanying Luke on the task would have made more sense) when it seems clear Yoda is more powerful than Luke (lifting Luke's X-wing). Also, as the Emperor is more powerful than Vader, I don't see why the crucial thing is for Luke to kill Vader, not for the good triumvirate to kill the Emperor. I guess the idea is that Obi Wan and Yoda are getting older, as is Palpatine. But it still doesn't make much sense. Different factors go into who is most powerful. Love itself can be considered a power (I know, echh!, but it's true - that was the message of ROTJ). Inexperience can be considered a weakness even if you have the highest midi-chlorian count. And Vader's an old man, half machine, by the time of ROTJ, Luke gets the better of him. Vader throws Palpatine down the shaft, but only thru inspiration from his son (love), in a sense, it's a collective effort, as GL says "we are redeemed by our children." So all things considered, at the time of ROTJ, I would put the ranking as:

Palpatine
Yoda
Luke
Vader

OK, first off, i didn't say he was trying to kill before he said that, but he fried Luke's ass for a good little minute before Vader tossed him down the reactor core. But i guess that would be pretty obvious to those of you with eyes AND brains. If you want to get THAT technical, time it and you'll find that he shocked luke about the same amount as he did Mace. So there's no real difference after that point. But I'm sure you'll find something else to argue about, just to be you're cool little selves.