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Both of these people during ROTJ and ROTS were at the ranks of Jedi Knights, but these Jedi Knights havevery different skills.

Luke Skywalker: He uses Form V, which maintains its existence through having sufficient defensive skills, as derived from Form III, but channeling defense into offense. The example is commonly used that while Form III combatants effortlessly deflect laser bolts, Form V practitioners excel at redirecting the laser bolt toward the opponent. This simultaneously defends the user and efficiently injures the opponent. As well, it employs a basic form of Form II's parries, allowing the user to parry the attempted attack, and counter it. It is different from Form III in the fact that practictioners of Form V will press the assault, using wide, sweeping blows in an attempt to overwhelm the opponent with brute strength.

Serra Keto: She uses Form X, which has the Jedi using two lightsabers, one in each hand. One of the blades in the wielder's hands is used for attacking while the other one is used for defending, such as parrying, or for more offensive power.

The setting is "Jabba's Sail Barge"

I think Serra Keto has more experince, but Luke has more power. In the end Luke Skywalker would pull this off.

http://www.sith.nl/multimedia/characters/luke_skywalker/rotj/luke-sbr.jpg

RotJ Luke would win. ESB might even beat her. Anakin in the movie, just force choked her I believe. And I would like to thank you for making a good thread.

i dont think ESB Luke has a chance in hell
ROTJ Luke might be able to pull it off, but sera has more knowledge of the force and more experience. plus shes been raised as a jeedai since she was a child. ROTJ Lukes been in training what, a few years? ESB Luke for even shorter time. i mean yes theyre both jeedai knights, but as said before, there are different skill levels, and i think sera is on a higher one than luke, at ROTJ at least.

Serra would own his arse. As said above. This is Serra's brother btw.

Actually Luke doesnt become a Jedi untill he fights Vader the third time(RotJ.) RotJ Luke is just so much more powerful that Sarah doesnt stand a chance. ESB Luke had a Kaiburr crystal already making him more powerful than he would have regulary have been. This crystal had immense healing powers, but it weakened greatly the farther the distance from the Pomojema Temple. It still had power though, perhaps helping Luke withstand the force lightning. ESB Luke did manage well against Vader. I think ESB Luke could take her.

true, he did do well against vader, but in the end he still lost. i think even in ROTJ, he may be strong but hes just too inexperienced. Plus as i said before, Sera was trained as a Jeedai since she was a child. i mean yes luke was trained by yoda, but he didnt train THAT long. i think just from lack of experience luke would lose

Did he ever get trained to defend against Form X? He will be hurtin...

Luke would be dead, he may have the raw power but he doesn't have the control over the force or the anger he needs to beat her.

I don't think so. Luke at this time is way more powerful than Serra Keto, she may have more experience, but like Plagues said above. He has a Form that overcomes people by brute force and wide swings. Serra Keto doesn't have the defensive skills to hold on this opponent.

Anyway Fishy, he has a Jedi Knight's control over the Force, the same as Keto and Luke wouldn't need to use anger to win. He knows enough to beat Serra Keto.

"I warn you not to underestimate my power." - Luke Skywalker

Against a lowly hutt... Real Impressive...

Originally posted by HANSOM SOLO
I don't think so. Luke at this time is way more powerful than Serra Keto, she may have more experience, but like Plagues said above. He has a Form that overcomes people by brute force and wide swings. Serra Keto doesn't have the defensive skills to hold on this opponent.

Anyway Fishy, he has a Jedi Knight's control over the Force, the same as Keto and Luke wouldn't need to use anger to win. He knows enough to beat Serra Keto.

"I warn you not to underestimate my power." - Luke Skywalker


HANSOM SOLO has a very good point. Serra Keto may have more experince, but clearly Luke is way more powerful.

Fishy Jabba was not some low Hutt...

A mobster, Jabba the Hutt was the unsurpassed top dog of crime in the Outer Rim Territories. Overseeing his business out of Tatooine, Jabba had interest in a number of profitable and illegal schemes -- slavery, gunrunning, spice-smuggling, extortion and more.

Luke showed intelligence and focus way past Serra Keto's in fighting Jabba's forces.

And this wasn't the only crimelord Luke dealt with about three months before Return of the Jedi...Luke Skywalker also dealt with Xizor AKA "Thrid most powerful person in the galaxy, next too Palpatine and Vader"

Xizor is portrayed as a rival of Darth Vader, largely the result of a mixture of ambition and hatred. The latter arose when Vader obliterated much of Xizor's homeworld from orbit to halt the spread of a plague accidentally released from an Imperial bio-weapons facility, killing most of Xizor's family in the process. Learning of Vader's quest for Luke Skywalker, Xizor attempted to frustrate it and simultaneously lower Vader in the Emperor's esteem having the young Skywalker killed.

Prince Xizor was portrayed as a cold and ruthless risk-taker - indeed, his species has a reptilian semblance. Unlike the grotesque Jabba, Xizor had a refined and charismatic appearance, with a taste for "the finer things in life" that was strikingly juxtaposed with his merciless ambition. Similarly, while he was certainly "cold" in some respects, he behaved quite irrationally at times, most dramatically in choosing to pursue his dangerous machinations against Vader. He was assisted by Guri, an enigmatic and brutal "human replica droid" (HRD) assassin. (Guri appeared to have perished after being defeated in unarmed combat by Luke Skywalker, but she survived her master's death, and was subsequently featured in a comic book mini-series titled "Evolution."

You see he did alot more than most Jedi Knights.

Luke would win over Keto...

Then stop making threads on Serra if your so sure that she always loses?

Fighting crime lords and fighting Jedi are two completely different things. Luke may have the power but his control over the force is not good enough. Did you see how much problems he had lifting C3P0 on Endor?

Serra has the force power and the experience, besides she has a different form then Luke she fights differently then Vader. Luke does not have the experience to defeat a Jedi Knight like that. He may have the power but the force won't make him win and against a lightsaber fighter that will do everything that she can to win he will lose. She will move to fast for him her form would be to surprising for somebody like Luke. And she trained her entire life, Luke is a fast learner but against a fully pledged Jedi Knight? Nah

*wAvEs goooodbye to Luke.

i agree 100% fishy, but luke didnt put that much effort into lifting c3po

he just closed his eyes, thats not a lot

I don't know a lot about Serra Keto but I know Luke is one of the best so I vote Luke.

Luke didn't struggle in lifting C-3PO on Endor, he just closes his eyes. Also in ESB Luke did better at trying to pick up a ship than Obi-Wan Kenobi did as a Jedi Master in the ROTS video game...Obi-Wan needed Anakin to help him to finish the deed.

That is a feat way past Serra Keto. She has more experience, but Luke's Form and stronger ability in the Force would win over her.

Originally posted by Tyler Secura
Then stop making threads on Serra if your so sure that she always loses?

Maybe he values the opinions of other people.

Anyway. Luke had a Kaiburr crystal by this point. He DEFEATED Vader in ep6. Wow, he be the guy who killed her, her master and a bunch of other Jedi with one hand, yet he couldnt beat her alone?

Good point ^...Vader may have lost some of his power when he fought Obi-Wan, but he still is pretty impressive. He could still take Keto so could Luke.

Originally posted by General Zodiac
I don't know a lot about Serra Keto but I know Luke is one of the best so I vote Luke.

Here is some more info in Serra Keto from Wikipedia...

Serra Keto was the ambitious student to Cin Drallig, the legendary Jedi swordsmaster (who is briefly seen in Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, dueling Darth Vader.) She wielded 2 green lightsabers, making her fighting style unique; she could also use the force to see her opponent without her eyes.

And there you have it two lightsabers... Luke has enough problems with one.

I found a flaw with Form X, the form Serra Keto uses. When a person uses Form X...one lightsaber is used for defense and the other is used for attack. Now with that said lets go to Luke's form...Form V, which involves wide swings and brute force to overcome the opponent. Now Serra Keto having only one blade trying to block an attack with that much power its going to be harder to hold the lightsaber. Luke could with his form penetrate her defenses.

Or he would lose when she blocks his attacks and kills him with her other lightsaber.

I voted for Luke at first, but after reading all of these arguements I might have to change my answer. The fact that Serra had more experience as a jedi is used often and the fact that Luke beat the man who beat Serra also comes into play. I just wanted to say that we never "really" see Luke actually train in lightsaber combat. He basically in the movies shown the ways of the force. He does train with those little spheres on the millenium falcon but I can't see him beating Serra with "form x" when he's ESB Luke. Probably ROTJ Luke would win out in the end. It's tough.

Originally posted by Darth Plagues
I found a flaw with Form X, the form Serra Keto uses. When a person uses Form X...one lightsaber is used for defense and the other is used for attack. Now with that said lets go to Luke's form...Form V, which involves wide swings and brute force to overcome the opponent. Now Serra Keto having only one blade trying to block an attack with that much power its going to be harder to hold the lightsaber. Luke could with his form penetrate her defenses.

lol You just found that out...? wow...

^ We know now which person brings the best arguments. To answer your question no I didn't just find that out...If you read the first post I posted you would realize that.

Luke is still not able to do very much. He might do good against a crippled man, but after fighting Vader , who was almost stationary, he would fight someone who would be moving around and not just taking blows but probably trying to dodge them and going after him when he swings sine his form is brute strength while Serra's form has a certain finesse to it.

Actually here is why Luke defeated Vader...He was his son, which Vader felt strongly for, so he didn't go full throttle in their duels. Luke felt strongly for Vader too...Now that we got that cleared up.

Luke wouldn't fight like he did in the movies, because he has no feelings for Serra Keto and Serra Keto has no feelings for Luke Skywalker, so they would fight as strong as full as the trhottle would let them.

Form V vs. Form X...both have their advantages, but the power Luke has behind his swings wold give him the advatage.

no you cant say that


i mean if you have luke vs vader you should go into how the skill level and force powers are not how they felt for each other. i mean true they held back in the movies, but we're not talking about that, we're saying who would win in a battle with no ties what so ever. i mean if luke did fight sera, they wouldnt go all out, theyre both lightside jeedai, so they probably wouldnt even fight in the first place. with these versus threads you go by skill, force power, etc.

I know that..someone above said Luke defeated Vader, because Vader was weak.

yes but you also said luke and sera would go all out against each other, but if youre going to go by how people would really react, they wouldnt even fight at all. two lightside jeedai have no reason to fight each other.

you could say that for a lot of versus threads so what you should do in versus threads is just forget that and pretend that each person is fighting all out no matter what

Originally posted by Tyler Secura
Did he ever get trained to defend against Form X? He will be hurtin...

Anakin never fought anybody with Form X before Asajj Ventress and look how that duel turned out...Anakin was the victor.

Anyone else think that GL may have had a point in having Luke take so much force lightning even and was still able to do stuff while Anakin in ep2 was out after only a second or two od Dooku's lightning. I think that this is showing Luke's power by now. Maybe he had Anakin go down so fast because it is a way to show how good Luke was without changing the movies. Just a thought, but Luke would beat Serra

I say Luke. I don't know much about Serra but ROTJ Luke is much better than he's given credit for. He's a Jedi knight, has mastered telekinesis, blaster deflection, Force choke, the Jedi mind trick, he can read other's thoughts, and he defeated Darth Vader who's a Sith lord. He single handedly (basically) took down all of Jabba's henchmen which numbered at 50 guys or something, he killed a rancor without a weapon, and resisted the dark side even when tempted by the Emperor and his father.

And Glentract: I also noticed that. Luke took like 30 seconds of Force lightning from the EMPEROR, much stronger than Dooku's and Luke got up some 15 seconds later and dragged his father all the way to a shuttle. Anakin on the other hand only took about 4 seconds of DOOKU's lightning from one hand and couldn't move for a minute or two.

Hmm did you see how Palpatine was giving it to Luke, one small shot talk one extra small shot talk, another small shot talk. Dooku threw his all into it and threw Anakin away at the same time, its bound to hurt more.

Anakin only took what, 5 seconds or less of Dooku's lightning (less powerful than the Emperor's) from one hand. The Emperor used both hands and while he did shock and talk, that final one lasted a good twenty seconds or more and Luke could even manage to talk throughout the pain. Notice how when Dooku shocked Anakin, he screamed and was flung across the room. Now when the Emperor first shocked Luke, he barely grunted, and almost kept his balance. Now, I don't think the Emperor was trying to fling Luke around but it's still more impressive.

Now look at when Anakin fell off of Zam's speeder when it was going pretty fast, in about 5 seconds afterwards he was fine and started running. I would imagine that would hurt even more than being thrown into the wall (just the throwing, if there was no lightning). So we can see that it's the lightning that causes Anakin so much pain and Luke can obviously resist it much better than Anakin.

Not really, Palpatine far from gave it his all when he was firing at Luke... It was pretty clear. If you looked at ROTS and then ROTJ and see the difference well lets just say its huge. He didn't put any effort into it at all.

What's your effort meter? Their faces? It doesn't look like Dooku put any effort into his one handed blast either...

EMPEROR
If you will not be turned, you will be
destroyed.

Blinding bolts of energy, evil lightning, shoot from the
Emperor's hands at Luke. Even in his surprise, the young Jedi
tries to use the Force to deflect them. At first he is half
successful, but after a moment the bolts of energy are coming
with such speed and power the young Jedi shrinks before them, his
knees buckling. The wounded Vader struggles to his feet, and
moves to stand at his master's side.

EMPEROR
Young fool...only now, at the end, do you
understand.

Luke is almost unconscious beneath the continuing assault of the
Emperor's lightning. He clutches a canister to keep from falling
into the bottomless shaft as the bolts tear through him.

EMPEROR
Your feeble skills are no match for the power
of the dark side. You have paid the price for
your lack of vision.

Luke writhes on the floor in unbearable pain, reaching weakly up
toward where Vader stands watching.

LUKE (groans)
Father, please. Help me.

Again Vader stands, watching Luke. He looks at his master, the
Emperor, then back to Luke on the floor.

EMPEROR
Now, young Skywalker...you will die.

Although it would not have seemed possible, the outpouring of
bolts from the Emperor's fingers actually increases in intensity,
the sound screaming through the room. Luke's body writhes in
pain.



This is from the Return of the Jedi script and it shows that the Emperor was not just toying with Luke...He was trying to kill him.

When I have an hour to waste in my life, I'll read all the posts before mine. But for now, since I have limited time, I would just like to point out that Serra demonstrated more Force control and battle hardiness in her small preview in the game than Luke did in the entire OT. Luke, despite some people loving him as a character so much they'd love to blow him IRL (And I have one person in particular in mind when I make that remark) the farm boy can't hack it. He can't, he won't, he never could. It's not like the overpowered, almighty NJO Luke was luke fifteen minutes after ROTJ. He was a mere child padawan with no real abilities to speak of at this point. Let it go. He loses.

How? He's a Jedi knight, she's a Jedi knight. he has mastered telekinesis, blaster deflection, Force choke, the Jedi mind trick, he can read other's thoughts, and he defeated Darth Vader who's a Sith lord. He single handedly (basically) took down all of Jabba's henchmen which numbered at 50 guys or something, he killed a rancor without a weapon, and resisted the dark side even when tempted by the Emperor and his father.

Wow, you are so wrong on all points.

- Luke isn't a Jedi until after ROTJ, and a tenative one at best.

- He hasn't mastered a damn thing you listed. Not even close.

- Luke did NOT single handedly slaughter everyone onboard of Jabba's barge, and assuming he did, so what? It's a bunch of Weequay slugs with sticks and blasters. Not trained Jedi opponents in the training room.

- I can kill a rancor without a weapon. You should see me cook.

- I can also resist the dark side. It's easier than Anakin makes it look. But then again, he is as emotional as an iregular old man.

- And Luke couldn't read thoughts. Period.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Wow, you are so wrong on all points.

- Luke isn't a Jedi until after ROTJ, and a tenative one at best.

- He hasn't mastered a damn thing you listed. Not even close.

- Luke did NOT single handedly slaughter everyone onboard of Jabba's barge, and assuming he did, so what? It's a bunch of Weequay slugs with sticks and blasters. Not trained Jedi opponents in the training room.

- I can kill a rancor without a weapon. You should see me cook.

- I can also resist the dark side. It's easier than Anakin makes it look. But then again, he is as emotional as an iregular old man.

- And Luke couldn't read thoughts. Period.

"Your wrong you highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

He hasnt mastered those things, but neither has she. He is able to block blaster bolts, used mind trick on the twi-lek, choked the guards, and read Vaders mind.

"Your feelings betray you father."

You beat Vader.

Sensing feelings is NOT mind reading.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Wow, you are so wrong on all points.

- Luke isn't a Jedi until after ROTJ, and a tenative one at best.

- He hasn't mastered a damn thing you listed. Not even close.

- Luke did NOT single handedly slaughter everyone onboard of Jabba's barge, and assuming he did, so what? It's a bunch of Weequay slugs with sticks and blasters. Not trained Jedi opponents in the training room.

- I can also resist the dark side. It's easier than Anakin makes it look. But then again, he is as emotional as an iregular old man.

- And Luke couldn't read thoughts. Period.

Wow your wrong on all points. Luke planned everything that happened in Jabba's palace, except for falling in the Rancor pit, which provided no real threat to him anyways...he just slamed the door on it...it died.

And yeah he has mastered all those thing Emperor Revan listed...If you don't belive it...I don't care.

Resisting is not something easy to do...where you got that I have no idea

And Luke could read thoughts...He read Vader's thoughts

He still defeated Vader. He blocked blaster bolts. He mind tricked the twi-lek in Jabba's palace. He choked the guards.

And he read Ben Kenobi's thoughts...

LUKE
Yoda spoke of another.

BEN
The other he spoke of is your twin sister.

LUKE
But I have no sister.

BEN
Hmm. To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your
father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were
to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the
reason why your sister remains safely anonymous.

LUKE
Leia! Leia's my sister.

He could even make himself a void in the Force

Even as a Jedi Knight he could block Force Lightning....

125 INT EMPEROR'S TOWER - THRONE ROOM

Luke stands still, as the Emperor reaches the bottom of thestairs. The
Emperor's laughter has turned to anger. He raises his arms toward Luke.

EMPEROR
If you will not be turned, you will be destroyed.

Blinding bolts of energy, evil lightning, shoot from the Emperor's
hands at Luke. Even in his surprise, the young Jedi tries to use the
Force to deflect them. At first he is half successful, but after a
moment the bolts of energy are coming with such speed and power the
young Jedi shrinks before them, his knees buckling.

Impressive. with such little teaching, and age he attempts to do what yoda can do at the age of 900. Luke is very powerful.

ummm go Serra?

Revan and Plagues,

While I think that he could probably take this fight, he is far from a master at the skills you listed. As Janus said, reading feelings is not reading minds; its more of an empathy. It can be used to deduce what someone's thinking, but little more. Of course he handled himself pretty well when he tricked the Twi'lek, and when he Force-choked the Gamorreans, but we've seen far more impressive use of those from Obi Wan and Vader. As for deflection mastery? I think not. If you watch ROTJ, you'll notice that Luke takes a blaster to the hand on the barge. He's good for the amount of time he's been trained for, but he's not all that powerful yet. ROTS Kenobi showed some defense mastery.

Originally posted by Darth Plagues
Even as a Jedi Knight he could block Force Lightning....

125 INT EMPEROR'S TOWER - THRONE ROOM

Luke stands still, as the Emperor reaches the bottom of thestairs. The
Emperor's laughter has turned to anger. He raises his arms toward Luke.

EMPEROR
If you will not be turned, you will be destroyed.

Blinding bolts of energy, evil lightning, shoot from the Emperor's
hands at Luke. Even in his surprise, the young Jedi tries to use the
Force to deflect them. At first he is half successful, but after a
moment the bolts of energy are coming with such speed and power the
young Jedi shrinks before them, his knees buckling.

EU is nice but when it contradicts the movies its not right, the movies don't show Luke deflecting the lightning so he didn't. Point.

Amen. Movie>Eu.

Besides, pure potential is not guaranteed victory. Serra is the best student under Cin Drallig, who could wipe the floor, ceiling, and his ass with Luke.

I agree if Luke cant beat ROTS anakin, he has no chance against serra at all. Because serra fought hard and well against anakin, and luke would fall faster that you can imagine.

Admiral, that was a video game; she is a boss character, and so she is supposed to be difficult. In the movies, Darth Vader chokes her to death while fighting off one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in the Temple. Now of course Luke would fall quite easily against ROTS Anakin, but that doesn't mean Serra could drop him as easily as you say.

Originally posted by Fishy
EU is nice but when it contradicts the movies its not right, the movies don't show Luke deflecting the lightning so he didn't. Point.

Too bad I got that from the original ROTJ script. Feel free to surf the web and read it. Luke can deflect Force Lightning. Point.

The original script? From what source, pray tell?

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Wow, you are so wrong on all points.

- Luke isn't a Jedi until after ROTJ, and a tenative one at best.

- He hasn't mastered a damn thing you listed. Not even close.

- Luke did NOT single handedly slaughter everyone onboard of Jabba's barge, and assuming he did, so what? It's a bunch of Weequay slugs with sticks and blasters. Not trained Jedi opponents in the training room.

- I can kill a rancor without a weapon. You should see me cook.

- I can also resist the dark side. It's easier than Anakin makes it look. But then again, he is as emotional as an iregular old man.

- And Luke couldn't read thoughts. Period.

Wow, you're so wrong on all points.

Luke is a full fledged Jedi knight according to Yoda and Lucas. This is ROTJ and he was a Jedi by the end of it. Yoda: No more training do you require.

He has mastered those, he's still alive now isn't he? He Force choked two gammoreans with no problem. He mind tricked no problem, oh and don't give any crap about he wasn't powerful enough to mind trick Jabba, no one could've. Even Revan and the Exile can't mind trick those resistant to it. He deflected every single blaster bolt except for one, including dozens of fighters, and even from a speeding speeder bike. He has mastered telekinesis, he called a blaster to his hand, his lightsaber, lifted C-3PO, etc.

He killed everyone with a weapon basically and Jabba's henchmen are well trained, single handedly the wouldn't be a walk in the park.

He had no items when he went into the pit and he killed a rancor.

It is NOT that easy to resist the dark side. Anakin fell, Obi used the dark side even when no one was trying to turn him, and many Jedi have fallen. Resisting the Emperor and your father, two Sith lords, together trying to turn you would be very difficult.

And what makes you think Luke can't read thoughts? Luke: Your thoughts betray you, I can feel the good in you.

And even in the novel Luke deflected the lightning for a second or two.

Emperor- I'm not contradicting the fact that he could take this duel, but as of ROTJ, he's no master of those things. Calling a lightsaber to his hands with a few hours of professional training from Kenobi is certainly exceptional, and lifting 3PO as well. But that hardly makes him a master. He was shot at by a bunch of second hand thugs and took a blaster to his hand. Now while there were certainly a good deal of thugs, Obi Wan in ROTS blocked hundreds of bolts without one touching him. In the EU, he kills 50 droids while essentially drunk; that is mastery. Luke has got skill, I won't deny that; he's one of my favorite characters, but he's no master yet.

Originally posted by Darth Plagues
Too bad I got that from the original ROTJ script. Feel free to surf the web and read it. Luke can deflect Force Lightning. Point.

Who cares? Was it shown in the movies? No. Therefor it did not happen and it is not real.

Darth Windu, you've read Labyrinth of Evil, I take it? What else have you read?

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Wow, you're so wrong on all points.


Luke is a full fledged Jedi knight according to Yoda and Lucas. This is ROTJ and he was a Jedi by the end of it. Yoda: No more training do you require.

In ESB Yoda said his training wasn't finished that he wasn't ready. When Luke returned he had no aditional training from Yoda. He didn't need any more training because he couldn't get anymore training. If yoda would have the choice he would have send him to train under somebody else. But there weren't any others.



If calling a blaster to your hand is mastering something then its going to be very easy for a force sensitive to become a Jedi. He lifted C3PO but it wasn't easy for him, he looked like he had a hard time. He far from mastered those techniques, not even close to the power a normal Jedi would have had.



For a Jedi? If a Jedi would fail on that they would deserve to die. Every half assed Jedi could have done that.



You know this example only sucks for Luke, becuase how did he kill it again? By throwing a rock against a Switch, any half assed Jedi would have used the force to do it. Luke did not, mastered it? He far from did. He started to control it, but he did not master it. Yet.



Yeah which is the only good thing about Luke from ROTJ. He was noble and he had the right idea's, which is why I hate him turning to the Dark Side later on it makes no sence. But to stay on topic, Luke resisted the Dark Side a great thing to do. But resisting the Dark Side is your own choice. And Obi Wan may have drawn upon it for a few seconds but so did Luke. Obi Wan did not fall to the Dark Side, and the temptation for Anakin was far greater then for Luke. How much did the Emperor really try? He just said join the Dark Side it brings power oh and kill your daddy while your at it. Luke didn't want power he wanted to save his father.

The Emperor played the wrong card, he played the right one with Anakin there he played the love card he should have done that with Luke too and he should have taken more time. If he would have done that he would have had a better chance of turning the second Skywalker.



Oh come on, even I could see that and I sure as hell can't use the force. Some people can just read other people better. Luke could read Vader, but he could not really read his mind. Just feel emotions. Its like Janus said, there is a big difference between the two. And with how conflicted Vader was at that time, it would not be hard for anybody to read.



Contradicts the movies so it did not happen.

Janus- I've read Labyrinth of Evil yes, Cestus Deception, Jedi Trial, various illustrated books, some of which I found to be full of crap, bits and pieces of various NJO novels, and some of Shatterpoint. I've actually had my eye on this forum, so I've gotten a lot of my newer knowledge from some people here. I've also played the KOTOR's, the JK series, and some other games.

Fishy- Like I said, the thought "reading" was like an empathy. Plus it's his dad, I mean come on.

I've read every Clone Wars novel, Cloak of Deception and The Approaching Storm myself. I won't touch NJO with a dead hamster on a meter long stick. That goes for post-ROTJ novels, too. I bought Splinter of the Mind's Eye and I can barely make it through the first chapter without thinking how crappy it is compare to other works. I mean, come on... it was made in 77!

The drunken Obi Wan part was funny but he himself admitted that he probably couldn't have done that when he was sober. At least he was quite surprised that he pulled it off.

Lol. I agree. I personally believe that Splinter of the Mind's Eye is the most crap-filled piece of literature in the Star Wars saga. If I did a timeline on Star Wars events, I would take that and the Dark Empire series and burn their names a thousand times over.

Mind trick only works on the weak minded and Jabba isn't weak minded.

Originally posted by Fishy
In ESB Yoda said his training wasn't finished that he wasn't ready. When Luke returned he had no aditional training from Yoda. He didn't need any more training because he couldn't get anymore training. If yoda would have the choice he would have send him to train under somebody else. But there weren't any others.

If calling a blaster to your hand is mastering something then its going to be very easy for a force sensitive to become a Jedi. He lifted C3PO but it wasn't easy for him, he looked like he had a hard time. He far from mastered those techniques, not even close to the power a normal Jedi would have had.

For a Jedi? If a Jedi would fail on that they would deserve to die. Every half assed Jedi could have done that.

You know this example only sucks for Luke, becuase how did he kill it again? By throwing a rock against a Switch, any half assed Jedi would have used the force to do it. Luke did not, mastered it? He far from did. He started to control it, but he did not master it. Yet.

Yeah which is the only good thing about Luke from ROTJ. He was noble and he had the right idea's, which is why I hate him turning to the Dark Side later on it makes no sence. But to stay on topic, Luke resisted the Dark Side a great thing to do. But resisting the Dark Side is your own choice. And Obi Wan may have drawn upon it for a few seconds but so did Luke. Obi Wan did not fall to the Dark Side, and the temptation for Anakin was far greater then for Luke. How much did the Emperor really try? He just said join the Dark Side it brings power oh and kill your daddy while your at it. Luke didn't want power he wanted to save his father.
The Emperor played the wrong card, he played the right one with Anakin there he played the love card he should have done that with Luke too and he should have taken more time. If he would have done that he would have had a better chance of turning the second Skywalker.

Oh come on, even I could see that and I sure as hell can't use the force. Some people can just read other people better. Luke could read Vader, but he could not really read his mind. Just feel emotions. Its like Janus said, there is a big difference between the two. And with how conflicted Vader was at that time, it would not be hard for anybody to read.

Contradicts the movies so it did not happen.

1. Luke had a year of self training, including Shadows of the Empire. If Yoda thought he needed more training he probably would've just became a spirit and continued it.

2. What's the difference between Luke's telekinesis and Obi-Wan's in Episode 1 or 2? And when he lifted C-3PO he simply closed his eyes, he wasn't strained like in ESB when he lifted the X-Wing a little bit. Look at Yoda in AOTC, it looks like he has trouble lifting that pillar, yet 26 years later or so he lifts an X-Wing with much more ease.

3. He single handedly fought dozens of organic creatures, they are much harder to predict and therefore much more deadly than droids. Watch the first 3 episodes, when they fight the weak droids they're almost never alone, and there's never a whole lot at one time.

4. I hadn't thought of it that way. In either case though he had to destroy it, not just press a button. Why concentrate on destroying it with the Force when you can chuck a rock at it much quicker?

5. No comment

6. So he just said "Your thoughts betray you" for no reason? He just thought there was good in the guy who killed Ben, who cut his hand off, for no reason? He obviously could feel the good in Vader, sense his presence, sense other's presences, etc. In any case, thoughts or feelings, Obi-Wan in AOTC is no better. He can't tell anything from Jango now can he? Or Zam Wessel?

7. I wasn't trying to say it did, just showing that Plagues wasn't lying.

I still like you, Emperor. I just disagree with you on almost every level involving Luke Skywalker.

And yes, I would burn Dark Empire and Splinter a thousand times over. And then burn the whole NJO series. I absolutely hate the Vong. Organic technology and no force is just a stupid excuse to have a threatening enemy.

1.) Obviously he wouldn't have, Obi Wan didn't do it. He just told Luke to go to Yoda. Its probably harder to do then they thought was possible. And Yoda would surely have liked to train Luke more. He just knew he couldn't.

2.) Its not impressive and it does not show any mastery of the technique.

3.) What would you call the droids in AOTC, or in ROTS. Plenty of droids there. They just don't focus on much more then the Jedi because the droids are not important in the least, to weak just like the clones.

4.) Lifting a rock and throwing it is not quicker then quickly moving your hand or finger. And the chance of succes is lower. Luke couldn't do it, thats why he didn't do it. And if he could it sure as hell wasn't an instinct. Using the force would be like a second nature to Serra not to Luke, obviously.

5.) Okay.

6.) He did not read Vader his mind, he did not know what he was thinking he could just feel his conflict and drew conclusions from that. He never read anybody else his mind in ROTJ for as far as we know.

7.) I know he wasn't lying, he was still wrong though.

Just to get this settled- Luke did NOT read minds. It is a form of an empathy or something. Not to mention that Vader was his father.

Darth Windu, something troubles you. Your posts, they betray you. Holy crap, I'm psychic!

Hey, me too!

Ohhh..... Now I get wat you were saying. lol

zOMG.... it's an infection of mass-empathy!

Janus, I- I never knew you had such power!! Oh my GOD!! I am your father! You're adopted!! NNNOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Oooookkkkaaaaaayyyyyy. That wasn't me, I swear.

Sure. Your post betrays you.

Originally posted by Fishy
Who cares? Was it shown in the movies? No. Therefor it did not happen and it is not real.

It could be why Luke didn't fly into the shaft...We can't really go by a facial expresstion...Because also in the script it never stated "The Emperor only introcuces a little power to the young Knight to the true power of the dark side."

He was just shocking him...Anyway off subject.

Two lightsabers in hand doesn't give Serra Keto an advantage. Kyle Katarn defeated a Dark Jedi named Boc, one of Jerec's henchmen and Kyle didn't have hardly any Jedi training at the time, he was just a self taught Jedi.

Info on Boc...

Boc is a male Twi'lek with pale skin, reddish eyes and dressed in ragged clothes. His fighting style is described as unorthodox and unpredictable. He is the first official denizen of the Star Wars universe that wields two lightsabers in combat.

Luke could fight against two lightsabers, even though he's never encountered them, but neither did Kyle before battling Boc.

Doesn't really matter. In EU, Ventress and Grievous, along with Sora Bulq made the most out of multiple sabers, but Anakin in AOTC got thrashed when he tried it against single-sabered Dooku. It all depends on the skill of theuser.

Yes it does, I but I was just saying two lightsabers don't make her the all mighty.

I agree with you on that last point.

No of course it doesn't make her all powerful. However she is quite good with them and Luke has never faced anybody that uses lightsabers like that. It would give him an harder time.

Well the unorthodox method, yes. But Luke has stood his own against new things before.

Yes he has, but never against a threat that wanted him gone. Never against somebody that wanted to kill him quickly.

True, but if he fared pretty well against Vader in ESB (I know, the Sith Lord wanted to turn him), he could probably manage against Serra. Vader beat Serra by choking her with one hand; Luke fared pretty good against him.
..

GOO SERRA!

Well, Luke wouldn't be able to choke her, so that's out. I still believe that Luke would lose. Why? Cuz Serra is the complete opposite of the only other lightsaber wielder he faced, which is Vader. Vader used strong attacks, which for a young person like Luke would be easy to block. But Serra would be a whole lot more agile, with more direct attacks, instead of just powerful ones. Luke would have to transition completely for him to win this, and I don't believe he would be able to.

Remember in ROTJ, when Luke completely overwhelmed Vader with those fast and strong Djem So swings? That's what he'd do to Serra. I mean with two lightsabers, she can attack faster than he can, but her defense is a hell of a lot weaker. Vader, with all of his superhuman strength, was unable to stop Luke's Force powered strikes. Serra would need to use both sabers just to block, and even then, she'd have to be leaping out of the way of his strikes. She'd probably get some kicks and wounds in, but not much else.

Plus, Luke could put in some quick attacks with Form V; not like Serra, but fast enough.

Wait, Luke could force power his attacks? When did he do that? If Luke who got almost no training could do that, then ?I think Serra could do that too.

HimoKun- Every single character in Star Wars uses a lightsaber, or throws or punches or jumps or whatever who has control over the Force uses it. In AOTC when Obi Wan throws the homing device at Slave I, he uses the Force unknowingly, just as an instinct. In ROTJ, when Luke throws the skull at the door panel in Jabba's Palace, he uses the Force Do you honestly think Luke could overwhelm Vader with sheer physical power? The dark side powered his strikes. And yes, Serra could do it too, but it would not be as effective, as she'd have to contend with Luke's power as well.

And thats where I think you are mistaking, like you said yourself the Dark Side makes him more powerful. But Luke would not go dark when fighting Serra. He would have no reason to do so, which would remove the only advantage he could possibly get in the fight.

Originally posted by Fishy
Yes he has, but never against a threat that wanted him gone. Never against somebody that wanted to kill him quickly.

Actually that's not true. Before even ROTJ Luke fought bounty hunter droids and ect...I doubt they wanted him alive.

Let me rephrase that, never against somebody with the force that wanted to kill him quickly.

Ok Serra Keto hasn't either...not untill ROTS Anakin that is.

I woudln't really know, but she at least faced more oponents, and had more training matches. Her fighting style would be a lot better.

True, but we do know Luke Skywalker is an extremly fast learner. And in EU he learned to deflect Force Lightning as a Jedi Knight...we have no idea of what he learned as a Jedi Knight.

That part of the EU is false, get it? False does not exist. Its a lie forget about it, it did not happen.

You're right about that Fishy; but in ROTJ, Luke is almost as emotionally volatile as Anakin/ He goes into those random fits. He controls them, but still allows the Force to flow through him and power his strikes. Good counter though.

According to GL, who out ranks the movies, Luke soundly defeated Vader in ep6. That alone makes him WAY more powerful than Serra.

Well if what GL says contradicts the movies, then I don't know what to make of it. Towards the end of the duel, as is visible, Luke absolutely destroys Vader, and it is obvious that throughout the duel, before his initial loss of control at the duel's end, that he is holding back against his father

It doesnt contradict the movie. He wastes Vader during the movie. Its in the commentary.

Ah, yes. I don't know what that was. But anyway, I think that gives Luke some credit; he defeated a Sith. I know all the details about why and how (I heard most of them from people on this forum), but I'd say that that is rather significant for his age and experience.

luke wud do really well at the begining but with keto having the cin dralling training and 2 light sabers she wud end up winning

Cin Drallig's legendary training makes her legendary in no sense. His great training is what helped her fight Darth Vader so well; seeing her getting strangled by his left, organic hand while he slew her master with his other really showed me her legendary skill. Now, Luke is no Anakin, but I don't know if Cin Drallig's training can save her here.

Luke has Yoda's training. Yoda could beat the SH!T out od Cin!

How did this reach 6 pages? This isnt even a contest luke wins easily.

Originally posted by Fishy
1.) Obviously he wouldn't have, Obi Wan didn't do it. He just told Luke to go to Yoda. Its probably harder to do then they thought was possible. And Yoda would surely have liked to train Luke more. He just knew he couldn't.

2.) Its not impressive and it does not show any mastery of the technique.

3.) What would you call the droids in AOTC, or in ROTS. Plenty of droids there. They just don't focus on much more then the Jedi because the droids are not important in the least, to weak just like the clones.

4.) Lifting a rock and throwing it is not quicker then quickly moving your hand or finger. And the chance of succes is lower. Luke couldn't do it, thats why he didn't do it. And if he could it sure as hell wasn't an instinct. Using the force would be like a second nature to Serra not to Luke, obviously.

5.) Okay.

6.) He did not read Vader his mind, he did not know what he was thinking he could just feel his conflict and drew conclusions from that. He never read anybody else his mind in ROTJ for as far as we know.

7.) I know he wasn't lying, he was still wrong though.

1) there's nothing to even suggest that.

4) he had to destroy it, not press a button. You never see someone destroying a machine with just the Force. Why not throw a rock guided with the Force instead?

6) Okay, so when does Obi from AOTC for instance read minds? Not often because he doesn't need to. You're just guessing when you say he can't read minds, just emotions. He only needed to do it once, so even if he was lying, then it still doesn't mean he can't do it.

I'm saying Luke's powers are shown just as good as AOTC Obi's. Obviously not the lightsaber technique, but we know why. Obi doesn't read minds yet you think he can do it. He barely used telekinesis yet you think it's stronger than Luke's. I will admit his blaster deflection is better, but he also uses form 3 whereas Luke uses Form 5 and fought organic beings which are tougher.

Luke uses all his powers including Mind trick, Force choke, telekinesis, Force jump, mind read (He specifically says thoughts and there is nothing official to contradict it), just as well as what Obi does in AOTC and Luke has Force choke unlike Obi.

Luke is resourceful, clever, and he defeated Darth Vader with ease. Again, look at how long he resisted the Emperor's two handed lightning compared to Anakin resisting Dooku's (weaker) one handed lightning for less time.

Oh and Janus: Of course I still like you, disagreeing is what this whole forum's about anyway.

1.) Except for spirits becoming weaker over time, its not like real life. And they only showed up at a few times. There has to be a reason for that.

2.) Glad you agree.

3.) Glad you agree.

4.) If he had to destroy it I could be mistaken I thought he just pressed the close the door button.

5.) Okay.

6.) Vader ia a powerful Sith Lord right. Its harder to read the minds of those with a strong mind. Obviously Luke was not skilled like some of the greatest Jedi and he could not do it. Either Vader was so conflicted that his thoughts just showed to everybody except for Palpatine. Or Luke didn't read his mind, its a simple conclusion to draw

Luke is just not powerful enough yet to read the mind of somebody like Vader.

And again, see the difference between what Dooku does in AOTC and Sidious and Rots. Dooku put more effort into it and threw him away.

You have to give Luke credit. He was trusted to defeat Vader and bring down the Emperor who Yoda couldn't defeat.

I give him credit, I think he did a great job. Better then anybody else weaker then both of them could have ever hoped to do. Something that was impossible for most others to do. However defeating somebody does not make you all powerful, not if you defeat them like Luke did. He did great really, but it does not show to me that he is suddenly more powerful then the Jedi that came before him that actually had some good training.

The fact is that after the fall of the Empire Luke had to go through a lot more then any other Jedi. Dark Jedi, Vongs, and whatnots.

Any other? Or most? With most I agree, he had to go through a lot but are we talking about that? No we are not. So why bring it up what does it have to do with this?

Oh come on, Dooku isn't trying to kill Anakin, he just simply one handed blasts him and does throw him against the wall. but he really doesn't throw him hard, and even when Anakin fell off of a speeding speeder, he got right back up. Now when Anakin was hit by lightning, it took a minute or more for him to get back up.

Luke on the other hand, took lightning from the Emperor (who probably got weaker in 19 years) who was using both hands. Luke took probably a minute of lightning or more whereas Anakin took about 3 seconds. Sure the Emperor would talk a bit, but each of those blasts was longer than Anakin's. Luke could still speak even. Then the Emperor says "Now young Skywalker, you will die." and increases his blast's power trying to kill him. Luke takes it for a good 15 seconds or so before Vader killed the Emperor. Luke gets right up, and goes to his father. In the next scene we see he has already dragged his father's body (which would be kinda heavy) all the way to a shuttle.

^^^ Yeah you have to give him credit for that.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Oh come on, Dooku isn't trying to kill Anakin, he just simply one handed blasts him and does throw him against the wall. but he really doesn't throw him hard, and even when Anakin fell off of a speeding speeder, he got right back up. Now when Anakin was hit by lightning, it took a minute or more for him to get back up.

Luke on the other hand, took lightning from the Emperor (who probably got weaker in 19 years) who was using both hands. Luke took probably a minute of lightning or more whereas Anakin took about 3 seconds. Sure the Emperor would talk a bit, but each of those blasts was longer than Anakin's. Luke could still speak even. Then the Emperor says "Now young Skywalker, you will die." and increases his blast's power trying to kill him. Luke takes it for a good 15 seconds or so before Vader killed the Emperor. Luke gets right up, and goes to his father. In the next scene we see he has already dragged his father's body (which would be kinda heavy) all the way to a shuttle.

Yoda didn't get weaker and Luke was taking more lighting. I'm pretty sure you don't get weaker in the force through time.