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Well, in my doomed megatournament(some older members may remember it) idea I had Kreia and Mace fight. Kreia won 3, 1 I believe, but now that you have seen him whup Sidious, could he beat her?

Yes. His form gives Mace the upperhand.

very hard to say

i think mace would be able to get past any lightsabers she may use with telekenisis, and im sure she wouldnt be that good with a lightsaber if she has to use telekenisis to use them effectively. we all know how good mace is with a lightsaber and vapaad,so she should be no problem for him. BUT kreia has an incredible mastery of the force, much greater IMO than sidious ever had. so mace would be facing some trouble from that, i mean dont forget how kreia kills three jeedai masters, who were perhaps on par with mace in terms of force mastery, with one wave of her hand. but if the exile could survive that technique im sure windu could as well. it would be a good battle but in the end i think mace would pull through, hes just too good with the blade for kreia.

Yes I believe mace would win, mace is alot stronger than the 3 masters kreia killed and he is excellent with the lightsaber.

Yeah. Sidious killed 3 masters and still got beat by Mace.

Sidious killed them with a lightsabre whe nthey weren't ready for it. Kreia killed the Masters wit ha single force move when they weren't expecting it.

I believe Mace will win. Why? Because if you fight Mace too long he'll find your shatterpoint and exploit it to his advantage.

I think Kreia would win. I don't think Mace is powerful enough in the Force to resist her Force powers. He's good with a lightsaber yes, but even 3 masters couldn't even get near her because she simply Force pushed them away and killed them all with one wave of her hand. Kreia can kill dozens of warriors instantly with the Force. Kreia also isn't a bad lightsaber duelist, she held off the Exile pretty well.

Look at how Mace was struggling with Sidious' lightning when he had a lightsaber. Yoda for instance, blocked it with his hands and pushed it back at him. Yoda's resistance to Force powers is far greater than Mace's therefore I think Kreia would win.

Emperor Revan has a point... Sidious his lighting gave Mace a very hard time, he managed to hold on but not easily. Kreia has an awesome command of the force and her lighting would destroy him, if not then the constant attacks from dozens of force powers would tire him faster then her, and eventually she would just strike him down.

Thanks Fishy.

Good points, but Mace I think has this one. For the reasons of his lightsaber form and ability to find shatterpoints, though this is not a walk in the park. Kreia is not weak at any costs. She would give a run for his money.

Good point, Mace could win if he got close enough. If he could somehow manage to surprise her and actually fight her in lightsaber combat then he would win. But Kreia would never let him get near her I think.

Kreia isn't stupid, if she wants her distance she will create distance. A powreful push when he has an opening a powerful lightning attack followed by lifting him in the air and throwing him away. Whatever the case, Kreia has a very good chance of defeating Mace through the force alone.

I agree. I was just stating in the off chance the Kreia was asleep or something and Mace was suddenly right there and started hacking away with his lightsaber. Then he could overpower Kreia probably.

Mace would know how to defend himself against kreias force techniques, it would come down to a battle of lightsabers with mace coming out on top.

Yeah right. 3 very powerful Jedi masters together couldn't withstand the most basic of Kreia's techniques. If Mace had trouble blocking Force lightning with a lightsaber then he wouldn't be able to do it with his hands, hence, his powers aren't strong enough to stop Kreia's powers.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Yeah right. 3 very powerful Jedi masters together couldn't withstand the most basic of Kreia's techniques. If Mace had trouble blocking Force lightning with a lightsaber then he wouldn't be able to do it with his hands, hence, his powers aren't strong enough to stop Kreia's powers.

That was the lightning of sidious, kreia is not as powerful as sidious.

You have no idea who Kreia is do you? have you ever played KOTOR 1 or two? Kreia EASILY kills 3 council level Jedi masters at the same time with one use of the Force. She makes three lightsabers float at once and they can all fight. She held her own against the Exile in lightsaber combat who killed Jedi masters and Sith lords for breakfast.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
You have no idea who Kreia is do you? have you ever played KOTOR 1 or two? Kreia EASILY kills 3 council level Jedi masters at the same time with one use of the Force. She makes three lightsabers float at once and they can all fight. She held her own against the Exile in lightsaber combat who killed Jedi masters and Sith lords for breakfast.

Ive played kotor 1 like 5 times and kotor 2 like 3 times,I know very well who kreia is because she was my favorite character in kotor 2, however kreia is no sidious. The technique she used on the masters was simply showing them what it was like to be the exile and they were couldnt handle it because they were poor excuses for masters. Kreia was powerful but sidious was one of the greatest dark lords of the sith ever. Sidious in the ROTS novelization is said to be "the supreme master of darkness" its no suprise mace could barely hold his ground.

Ok, sorry I accused you of not playing the games. Still, I'm not saying Sidious is weak but he isn't as powerful as Kreia. And saying they're poor excuses for masters is just an opinion. And as for the quote in the ROTS novel, of course he is, there aren't any other Sith lords at that time that can match his power or malevolence.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Ok, sorry I accused you of not playing the games. Still, I'm not saying Sidious is weak but he isn't as powerful as Kreia. And saying they're poor excuses for masters is just an opinion. And as for the quote in the ROTS novel, of course he is, there aren't any other Sith lords at that time that can match his power or malevolence.

No problem,


Me saying the masters kreia killed are weak is an opinion but its backed up by the fact that the exile beat kreia while the 3 masters died instantly. That means 3 of the councils masters couldnt even measure up to the exile who while strong is not exceptional, I mean he was just a general in revans army-revan was the one that was crucial in the republics victorys, he was the one who was said to be the strongest not the exile.

Mace

I also think Mace would win. He may not have control over the force like Kreia but he knows enough to make it a battle of lightsabers and when it comes to that Kriea's toast no matter how many lightsabers she tries to use.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
No problem,


Me saying the masters kreia killed are weak is an opinion but its backed up by the fact that the exile beat kreia while the 3 masters died instantly. That means 3 of the councils masters couldnt even measure up to the exile who while strong is not exceptional, I mean he was just a general in revans army-revan was the one that was crucial in the republics victorys, he was the one who was said to be the strongest not the exile.

Oh yes, Revan is definitely stronger than the Exile. But those 3 masters' combined Force power was enough to freeze the Exile. Then Kreia killed them. Now the Exile got stronger after that by the time he fought Kreia whom he defeated. I do think the Exile is exceptional since he kills 3 powerful Sith lords and possibly 3 powerful Jedi masters.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Oh yes, Revan is definitely stronger than the Exile. But those 3 masters' combined Force power was enough to freeze the Exile. Then Kreia killed them. Now the Exile got stronger after that by the time he fought Kreia whom he defeated. I do think the Exile is exceptional since he kills 3 powerful Sith lords and possibly 3 powerful Jedi masters.

The 3 jedi were not powerful at all and the two other sith lords besides kreia were taken down not by the exiles skill but because of circumstances(nihilus not being able to suck the exiles power, sion giving up because hes a sissy)

Who's to say they were weak? They were on the council. I'd say they're stronger than the average council member during ROTS, look at how fast those 3 went down to Sidious and they had their lightsabers drawn waiting for him.

The Exile beat Sion about 5 times in a row, I'd say he beat him through skill.

I have to go for kreia even though I have never played KOTOR2 since my computer can't handle the requirments (which really sucks), however I know the storyline quite well.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
...Ive played kotor 1 like 5 times and kotor 2 like 3 times...

I just want you to know that playing it 5 times doesnt mean a whole lot. There are people who play it twice et finds things that you may have missed. Believe me, I've played KOTOR 1 fourteen times(mainly because it only takes me about 10 hours each time now) and KOTOR 2 six times(takes about eleven hours to all I want to. No offense by the way.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I just want you to know that playing it 5 times doesnt mean a whole lot. There are people who play it twice et finds things that you may have missed. Believe me, I've played KOTOR 1 fourteen times(mainly because it only takes me about 10 hours each time now) and KOTOR 2 six times(takes about eleven hours to all I want to. No offense by the way.

After 5 times through Ive pretty much seen it all. And when I play I dont rush, I savor everything so I make a point to see all that I can with each playthrough.

I think the worst part of this forum is getting to be scrolling through the BS to make my reply.

First off, the novelisation of Episode III does not say specifically that Sidious pwns all and is better than Kreia or the ancient Sith before him. Lucas does not say so. Therefore, it is not so. So shuddap with that already. Tired of hearing that from Sidious fanboys.

Second, Kreia's command of the Force is more extensive than Sidious', comes from a larger variety of different, more ancient sources. She is more tried in battle. She has a better kill ratio (Much like Bob in the Last Samurai) and she has dabbled in many arts Sidious has not, including Jedi training and the Force manipulation of Revan's assassins.

Third, if Sidious is the best the dark side has to offer, Exar Kun and Marka Ragnos must have been as all-powerful as ANH Luke.

And fourth, I've read Shatterpoint. I know how Mace works. And Mace has more than the usual bit of trouble with non-Force sensitives, let alone a Force witch on par with Kreia. In the novel, he has a rough time defeating his own padawan and also a Force sensitive but untrained warrior.

So yeah. STFU IMO PBS NBC BYOB.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
I think the worst part of this forum is getting to be scrolling through the BS to make my reply.

First off, the novelisation of Episode III does not say specifically that Sidious pwns all and is better than Kreia or the ancient Sith before him. Lucas does not say so. Therefore, it is not so. So shuddap with that already. Tired of hearing that from Sidious fanboys.

Second, Kreia's command of the Force is more extensive than Sidious', comes from a larger variety of different, more ancient sources. She is more tried in battle. She has a better kill ratio (Much like Bob in the Last Samurai) and she has dabbled in many arts Sidious has not, including Jedi training and the Force manipulation of Revan's assassins.

Third, if Sidious is the best the dark side has to offer, Exar Kun and Marka Ragnos must have been as all-powerful as ANH Luke.

And fourth, I've read Shatterpoint. I know how Mace works. And Mace has more than the usual bit of trouble with non-Force sensitives, let alone a Force witch on par with Kreia. In the novel, he has a rough time defeating his own padawan and also a Force sensitive but untrained warrior.

So yeah. STFU IMO PBS NBC BYOB.

I missed you

If only I could compliment that with a picture of Darth Logicus crushing the Sith trooper of stupidity.

You can't have it all.

Yeah it's great to have you back Janus.

*Sniff* Stop it, I'm gettin' misty eyed.

hey Janus you're back!!!

but wow, I remember the meha-tourny, wow that was a long time ago.

anyway, about the question, I think that you guys underestimate Mace's force resistance, if he was ready for battle (which he would be against Kreia), he could probably deflect her force powers, I just watched the RotS movie yesterday, and I noticed something, Mace was surprised by Paply's force lightning, yet he could still deflect it, so I think that if he were prepared, he could deflect Kreia's force powers long enough to engage her in lightsaber combat. Once in lightsaber combat, Mace takes this.

Yes but Kreia her force attack is going to be more powerful and Mace could be surprised by Kreia as well. Besides Kreia could launch a lot of different attacks at Mace, not to mention that once she sends a few lightsabers flying he is going to have a hard time. Kreia would probably manage to keep him away from her.

Mace is no pushover in terms of Force power. He was second in power only to Yoda and Darth Sidious in his time. Of course, I think Kreia has the edge in power here, and if she can kill him in a battle of the Force, she can save herself. But Mace has proven that he can use his lightsaber in Force battles. If he can use his Shatterpoint ability (which I find to be cool, but controversial) to find a weakness and close the distance, I think he can take this. And the Council members killed by Kreia probably weren't as powerful as Mace.

Good thread by the way.

Maybe not, doesn't matter they weren't really prepared. Still it shows some of Kreia's power, she would have to keep a distance, the real question is can she. I believe she is powerful enough to do it. If she can't she is dead.

My point exactly. If Kreia can kill Mace with her superior Force power before he reaches her, she can win. But once Mace gets to his range, Kreia's toast.

Nice sig by the way Fishy.

Thx, twelling4Ever made it...

one thing about Kreia levitating 3 lightsabers, impressive yes, but when she is doing that she cannot move or use force powers. So Mace could push the lightsabers away, run up to her and attack her, thats what I did in KotOR II, worked well. So really when Kriea duels, she cannot use that move unless she has a death-wish

You have a point. And while you are on the topic she probably did have a dead wish back then...

yes that is probaly true, she probably did have a deathwish, I think you PM'd me about that a while back, did you not get my reply?

Oh I did... I remember you agreed with me on it... So that probably means we are right

I don't think anyone's seeing the real point here: Kreia's amazing saber skills are not on the line here.... it's her amazing force mastery that's gonna make Mace her *****. If she can kill three masters (One of whom was legendary even to the Mandalorians before the war) who survived the eras of Kun and Revan with a mere wave of her hand, a PT council member will be easy pickings by far. End of story. I now await you horribly attached movie lovers to dispute this on every little detail but the logical ones.

One thing though Mace wasn't just a PT council member he was actually good, unlike the rest of those (with the exception of Yoda) bastards

I agree. I like MAce. Hell, I like the movie characters... I really really do. But the idiotic, illogical attachment most people have, championing movie characters over EU characters despite all evidence has brought out the dark side in this evil jawa pimp o' pics.

A lightsaber can be what decides a battle though and you know it. If Mace has the chance he could win. He probably won't get close enough but he could pull it off.

If he got close enough, yes, the very real possibility exists that he could win. Then again, if Luke Skywalker got close enough to Kreia, there is a very real possibility he could win (And I mean Farm boy padawan, not NJO GOD Luke). But the ODDS of winning are against Mace, and in favor of Kreia. Let's go with odds.

Lets

Agreed.

Then it's settled. Civility is a nice thing.

Originally posted by HimoKun
Sidious killed them with a lightsabre whe nthey weren't ready for it. Kreia killed the Masters wit ha single force move when they weren't expecting it.

I believe Mace will win. Why? Because if you fight Mace too long he'll find your shatterpoint and exploit it to his advantage.

Exactly, very good thinking himo, i agree, if mace is fought to long, he will find your weakness, although explain this. How did mace find jango's shatterpoint so quickly?

Kreia's a tough old woman. She's almost as devious as Sidious. And that is saying something. Not to mention she taught some pretty powerful Sith Lords - including everyone's favorite Darth Revan. If Kreia acted quickly - she could kill Mace. However, if the battle was somehow extended over a long period of time, Mace would win in the end.

Difficult fight, however.

Akbar- Jango was a bounty hunter. A very good bounty hunter who could probably defeat most Jedi in single combat, but a bounty hunter nonetheless. Mace Windu is one of the most powerful fighters the Jedi Order has ever known. I don't think he needed to find Jango's Shatterpoint to kill him, and if he did, it wouldn't be that difficult. Not to sound rude however.

Somebody (lol)- You're right; if Mace could prolong the battle, he might be able to win. Kreia won't let that happen. I noted your "somehow", so I believe we think alike on this matter.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Yeah right. 3 very powerful Jedi masters together couldn't withstand the most basic of Kreia's techniques. If Mace had trouble blocking Force lightning with a lightsaber then he wouldn't be able to do it with his hands, hence, his powers aren't strong enough to stop Kreia's powers.

he only had troule blocking it because sidious was right next to him and he had very little time to react.

Originally posted by Dresta
he only had troule blocking it because sidious was right next to him and he had very little time to react.

Jedi arent like normal people, they are hardly ever caught of gaurd especially masters.

Unless they are interupted, or even trying to figure out which person he can trust.

think bout it kreia was once a sith lord...and she prolly knew crush and all dem powers yo..i think Kreia wins but just slightly mace would cut her up bad but i think Kreia wins

I thinl mace winu would win because there is no proof that kreia has the power because u hjave never seen her pull them of so I really think mace windu would win!!!

Originally posted by Dark Windu
I thinl mace winu would win because there is no proof that kreia has the power because u hjave never seen her pull them of so I really think mace windu would win!!!

Play KOTOR 2. If you werent a junior member, I would be very angry.

I have to learn to be nice to junior members, but it's sooo hard to do.

You were nice to me when I first got here.

You typed in complete sentences and did your homework. Plus you have a sense of humor. If you hadn't, I'd have been a total punk towards you, for sure. Ask like... everyone else.

I'm with Janus. Most newbs know crap and post useless nothings like it's gonna affect the debate or something. I think I'm a little too mean sometimes too, but like he said, not to the ones who type something you can read and actually know what they're talking about. I think the biggest reason newbs get bashed is because they have a very condescending way of expressing their opinions.

i noe it so anoyin dumb noobs

zOMG LOL !!!#11!!!1! ur totly wrogn cideus N annykin pwn all ur totla n0000bs i noe all bout star warz i red all of supershadows cite. revan is weakr then cideus and anykin and luuuuke skywalkrt lol olol ollodskjdsjkndsauyhcdehjbewlkmnew

lol, i like the cideus part, very cool.

Danke

Darth rage would win.

If you read the Kotor 2 manual you will see the Juyo is weak against the force. It is said that Windu uses a spoof of the Juyo which means his form is weak against the force therefore Kriea would win because she uses the force all the time in battle. in summary: Kreia

"Dark Windu'? I'm gonna have to change my name . . .

Originally posted by darth vraya
If you read the Kotor 2 manual you will see the Juyo is weak against the force. It is said that Windu uses a spoof of the Juyo which means his form is weak against the force therefore Kriea would win because she uses the force all the time in battle. in summary: Kreia

That;s just for gameplay purposes. It's not really like that since Mace was able to deflect stuff prett easily.

And you were nice to me Janus, well at least I think you were.

Woah, how did Darth Glentract get Restricted?

kreia simply because she has more force knowledge by far she dropped three powerful jedi masters with ease and can use telekenisis to send floating lightsabers after mace.

But that doesn't matter screw all logic and common sense, mace is a movie charachter so he'd pwn all eu charachters and u nubz because after all he's in a movie just like obi-won whose the best jedi ever because he beat the chosen one whose all powerful, who cares if he's a whiny dumbass who fails at everything he does, he's the chosen one after all get real people. Who needs common sense when you've got supershadow and illogical opinions, (end sarcastic rant).

Now to kill some noobs and earn some cookies oootanieee!

Glentract posted a naughty pic, I believe.

And Dresta, regarding Sidious' Force lightning- I think it is genuinely that strong. I mean, look at the measely lightning Dooku would project. Now compare it to that lethal wave that Sidious projected. It's no wonder Mace was hard pressed to deflect it (Although he was surprised by it, that much is true).

Which leads me to another point, if Mace was caught offguard by Sidious' force lightning (Since it would be something no jedi had seen in a millenium) Kreia's larger bag of tricks would keep him in a tight spot.

I've been reading this forum, I have been very disappointed. I am a newb to this forum, but a veteran in Star Wars' EU history. But to the main point, which is why I am disappointed. Firstly, several people are talking about Mace's shatterpoint realization skills as if he is the God of them. However, according to KOTOR: II, Kreia was able to perceive shatterpoints, which she called "fractures". Now, as we all know, Kreia was very knowledgeable in the Force and overall. Therefore, my presumption is that Kreia was much more adept at the perception and exploitation of shatterpoints than Windu, since she is much more knowledgeable as I have said above.

So, I think that Kreia would be able to defeat Windu, since her mastery of the Force was much more powerful than Vaapad, which even Windu thought would've resulted in a stalemate between himself and Sidious, who at the time was far more inferior than Kreia.

Also, whoever said that Windu was one of the greatest Jedi the Order has ever known, I think you are confusing him with Master Yoda.

NOTE: I might be a fan of Kreia, but I do not think she is unstoppable (as several Windu fans believe he is).

I never personally connected the fractures she spoke of with Shatterpoint, but thinking about it, it definately fits. Nice one.

It rang a bell in my recent playthrough. I'd be interested if a source provided a confirmation on it, and if so, whether she could enhance her combat prowess with same as Mace.

Just because she has shatterpoints doesn't mean she can beat Vapaad, though.

And Windu's had plenty of experience with shatterpoints too.

Personally, considering she knew how to use Shatterpoint to kill the Force!, I'd say she was probably better with it than him.

Considering she failed, I would disagree.

Not due to a weakness with her shatterpoint or knowledge, but because the Exile beat her. It doesn't say anything about her abilities.

Also she taught Rvan how to turn jedi with the 'fractures' iirc.

The Exile overcame her shatterpoints? How?

You talkin' to me?

There's no one else here, so I must be talking to you.

Shatterpoint isn't a instant-win button. The Exile was just pimp enough to kick her ass anyway.

So much for her shatterpoint.

Mace saw the shatterpoints on how to stop the Clone Wars and the formation of the Galactic Empire. I think that a shatterpoint user can find them in pretty much anything if they study and examine it enough.

Yeah, which is why Jacen used his mighty shatterpoint powah to take out Jaina like a noo- oh wait, no he didn't. Or Mace on Doo- nope. Or Luke on - nope!

Its likely that the Exiles nature as a wound obscures shatterpoint.

N.
Personally, considering she knew how to use Shatterpoint to kill the Force!, I'd say she was probably better with it than him.

http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-crossarms.gif

You missed out on a great opportunity there.

N.
http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-crossarms.gif

You missed out on a great opportunity there.

I'm no tech. wiz.

Its not the only thing you're crap at.

N.
Don't fret, its not thepretty much the only thing you're crap at.

ty

Only in your mind my young apprentice.

N.
Only in your mind my young apprenticeYou're so damn hot.

ty(x2)

Neph, stop complimenting him.

I'm trying, I'm trying!

Gid, you're a damn whore and your mother sucks cocks in hell!

N.
Gid, you're a damn whore and your mother sucks cocks in hell!

This is actually quite accurate, so.......

And Sidious is a limp-wristed, buck-toothed doddering bufoon!

but i bet he spells buffoon with two 'f's'....

Yeah, the fole.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Personally, considering she knew how to use Shatterpoint to kill the Force!, I'd say she was probably better with it than him.

Or so she believes.

Originally posted by Q99
Mace saw the shatterpoints on how to stop the Clone Wars and the formation of the Galactic Empire. I think that a shatterpoint user can find them in pretty much anything if they study and examine it enough.

In the novel Shatterpoint, it's noted that realizing what can lead to victory doesn't make it attainable. That's why Mace spends most of the novel being over his head in danger and not simply pressure-point stabbing his way through his home planet.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
In the novel Shatterpoint, it's noted that realizing what can lead to victory doesn't make it attainable. That's why Mace spends most of the novel being over his head in danger and not simply pressure-point stabbing his way through his home planet.

Damn, this guy makes good points.

kreia