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I don't really know.... I think Luke could take Revan, but Malak could take Mace. But I need opinions.

good battle

seriously, this is a good battle



i think the jeedai would take this though. revan would fight luke to a stand still, malak and windu would be a very good fight as well, but i think in the end mace would overcome malak and come to help out luke. revan cant take both of those jeedai at the same time.

seriously this is a good fight, its been a while since ive seen one on this forum

i agree with human vader, mace takes malak and wins, luke and revan fight but are almost equal in power, and finaly mace joins luke and overpowers revan.

mace vs malak is a real tough battle and could change the destiny of the other fight but after research i have to say mace would win and go help luke against revan

Thank you, it's my first thread. I agree, except I think the Jedi might lose Mace in the process. But your scenario is possible as well.

I agree. It depends on who falls first. It'll either be Mace or Malak I think, because it would take Luke longer to kill Revan than it would Mace to kill Malak, or vice-versa. Thing is, I think that Malak might somehow be able to beat Mace. It's certainly possible, but I need more opinions.

Well I agree with Human Vader.

I think Revan is slightly stronger than NJO Luke, but by a very small margin. Mace could beat Malak fast enough to go help Luke finish Revan. Jedi have this. Luke might die though. Good thread.

It all comes down to ether Mace or Malak dying. Mace would most likley win and then could save Luke's ass from getting whipped by Revan.

I agree; it's possible. If Malak falls, the Jedi win. BUt I think Malak's a bit stronger than Mace.

Well, it all depends on your logic. A lot of people think Mace<Sidious. And Malak, being a Sith lord around the time of the Golden Era of the Sith (Someone who reigned for a year during a war with the Republic, with some couple thousand Sith beneath him)

Forgive me for always playing devil's advocate, but when I see so many people say with utmost conviction Mace can take Malak (And I doubt hardly any of you read Shatterpoint, the best EU source on the man) I get a bit troubled. Now... Malak was a Sith lord. He was a master of combat and darkness, having served frontline in the Mandalorian Wars, having slain enemies and potential usurpers throughout his dark career. He is the only known wielder of a great lightsaber, witha blade of easily four feet. His Force mastery is very good, enabling him to destroy two Jedi before facing Revan. An act that, at the very least, puts him on par with or above Dooku. Dooku, who beat Mace windu in combat previously. Dooku who has nowhere near the merits and experience of Malak himself. So really, you should be asking yourselves, is Mace better than an ancient Sith lord?

And as for Revan and Luke, they are the figureheads of the new factions on this board, Anakin having taken a back seat since Episode III came out. I won't touch on that. But until KOTOR III comes out, Revan's true potential and abilities remain unknown. I would, however, based on all I know of him (And his being better than Malak) he would be only slightly weaker than Exar Kun. And Exar Kun in his living days would spank even NJO Luke around like a ragdoll.

Well Mace's Vaapad Form gives him the upper hand against Malak.

mace and malak are the deciding factors of the fight,
it is said that mace is an extremely good duelist but so is malak.

so ummmmm im leaning toward malak now after what darth janus posted but i have really no idea

I mostly agree with Glentract. Lord Revan and NJO Luke are really close and that fight would drag on for quite a while and I do think Revan would win, if slightly. Mace and Malak would last a while I think but IMO Malak's only slightly stronger than Dooku who is weaker than the Emperor who lost to Mace so Mace would eventually kill Darth Malak and help Luke kill Revan.

Thank you Janus; while I completely agree with your deductions on Malak (you'll find I said the same in my earlier posts), I doubt Exar could "spank Luke around like a ragdoll". I believe he could win, but Luke would put up a decent fight. But yes, I believe Luke may be defeated by Kun, and that Mace would fall to Malak. And General, Mace's Vaapad is certainly helpful, but I doubt it'll give him much of an advantage against someone of Malak's calibre. I've noticed Malak is given little respect on this forum; many underestimate him.

Far to many, Malak was a great fighter even when he was young. He became a lot better, the thing is however most people think he is weak because he refused to face Revan and always tried to delay the fight when he knew it was coming. And really I can't blame him.

As for Revan vs Luke, I have said I think Revan would win enough. But seeing as people hate that I will now say they are equal, however Malak has been trained with Revan. He knows how Revan fights they fought a lot together. They were best friends, together they would defeat almost anybody. Luke stands no chance against the two of them.

Not to mention that I don't think it would be actually 1vs1 and 1vs1 more Malak and Revan working together in a really good way until the other two are dead but thats just speculation of course.

Well, the whole Luke being spanked thing was exaggeration, but I was irked. It happens. Realistically, NJO Luke is quite the force to be reckoned with. But when he is elevated to god status just because people despite Revan, or Ragnos, or Exar Kun, I go off on a tangent.

I was going to do a poll but too many people are just obsessed with certain characters; they'd give no reasons and just vote for who they liked. Anyways, I agree with you Fishy, but I think Mace and Luke could work pretty well; they both have similar philosiphies in their use of the Force, but Revan and Malak's experience with eachother in battle would undermine this. I personally think the darksiders could take this; if Revan and Malak tried to fight together, then Luke and Mace ccould break them up. Luke is more powerful than Malak, so he could probably get him out of the way for a bit while he and Mace double-teamed Revan, but this is more likely to happen in Revan and Malak's case; Revan could lightning or throw Mace, and the two Sith could take Luke. But this is all speculation.

Luke and Mace would be a good team. Two of the strongest Jedi Masters fighting two of the strongest Sith Lords. In the end I think Luke and Mace would win.

I agree Janus, which is why I didn't do a poll; the fanboys would vote for the people they worship.

A good team, yes. But Revan and Malak's comraderie is the stuff of legends.

Well, let's see how they mesh:

- Luke uses Form V. It uses broad swings, and relies on aggression.
- Mace Windu uses Form VII. It relies on sudden, unconnected moves, which range from the subtle to the bizarrely wide ranged.
- Malak strikes me as a Form V user, with some Sokan and Ataru mixed in. Also, his great lightsaber is four feet long, altering his style some.
- I have reconsidered Revan's style(s). For one thing, he defeated Malak. He studied about other Sith lords, including Tulak Hord, whom I suspect was heavy on Makashi. Now, in the prelude to KOTOR, he goes into a defensive stance that mirrors Mace's own defensive stance in the Episode III game. Seeing as Nick Gillard, the creator of the SW forms as we know it did work on the game, it is a reasonable assumption to say that Revan knows Juyo, and possibly Makashi. He is also well versed in dual wielding.

But can you really think they wouldn't get separated? I'm sure Luke would try to get Revan alone so Mace could kill Malak. Malak isn't as strong as Sidious I'm sure so Mace should be able to duel either Revan or Malak. If he dueled Revan all he has to do is hold him back for Luke to kill Malak.

Originally posted by General Zodiac
But can you really think they wouldn't get separated? I'm sure Luke would try to get Revan alone so Mace could kill Malak. Malak isn't as strong as Sidious I'm sure so Mace should be able to duel either Revan or Malak. If he dueled Revan all he has to do is hold him back for Luke to kill Malak.

Malak isn't as strong as Sidious? Debatable very debatable..

Anyways. Why do you think Luke would get Malak alone and why do you think Mace would stand longer against Revan then Malak against Luke?

Malak and Revan fought together for a very long time, Luke and Mace have never even seen each other. Of course Malak and Revan would preform better together. Argueing that is like saying Hitler won WWII complete bullshit.

First things first- General Zodiac with all due respect Mace would last about 5 seconds against Revan. I personally think Mace is awesome, but he'd give less of a fight to Revan than Malak would to Luke. Both would fall to their stronger foes.

Secondly, Janus I agree with you. Wikipedia as well stated that Tulak Hord used a pre-form version of Juyo, similar to Vaapad, but that is debatable. I also always thought Tulak might use Makshi, seeing as how its the most saber-oriented form. I think Revan used his own form as a mix between Soresu (in clip against Bastila), Juyo/Makashi (Hord's Holocron), and probably a couple of moves that he invented himself.

Because Mace's Vaapad gives him a better edge since he's fighting a Sith Lord then Malak does with Luke. And just because they never fought together doesn't mean anything. Sure all they know is their moves but Luke would be able to take down Malak faster then Revan would Mace. Mace is stronger then most people give him credit for.

Revan and Malak would kick ass (please excuse my lanaguage).

Obviously by the name of my avatar Mace is one of my favourite characters, so I would never in a million years cut his due credit short. But I'm trying to be realistic. By that logic, 99% of the people on this thread think Malak is crap. Luke and Mace have never laid eyes on eachother. Ever. Malak and Revan have been best friends their entire lives, fought through wars together, and became Master and Apprentice of the Sith. That's like saying, I dunno, Jacen Solo and Kit Fisto knowing, planning, and fighting together than, oh, ROTS Obi Wan and Anakin.

Whoever wins, it would be a close fight.

Originally posted by General Zodiac
Because Mace's Vaapad gives him a better edge since he's fighting a Sith Lord then Malak does with Luke. And just because they never fought together doesn't mean anything. Sure all they know is their moves but Luke would be able to take down Malak faster then Revan would Mace. Mace is stronger then most people give him credit for.

He is not as underestimated as Malak is. Malak is great himself, he would surely be able to resist Luke for a little while, and in that time Revan would take down Mace. And yes it does mean a lot. Two friends that have fought a lot together are going to do a lot better together then two people that meet for the first time.

Exactly.

I like Malak. He's one of my favorites but be real. Malak had to use the power of the Star Forge to stand a chance against Revan.

Look who he was facing! Anyone in the entire Star Wars saga would dread facing Revan; yes I just said that NJO Luke and Yoda would fear for their lives (if they feared for such things, which is doubtful, but you get the jist). And using the Star Forge doesn't mean that he's weak; he thinks like a Sith, crafty and willing to use whatever means necessary to achieve his goals. And he was obviously powerful ust to able to control the Forge, and to have been Revan's staunchest and mightiest ally in every single war fought i their lives.

He was fighting Revan, what did you expect? He could still use his normal power to kill hundreds of others.

A couple of things:

How the hell did it come about that Vaapad is like "Strong against Dark"? I didn't see that once in Shatterpoint, nor in Nick Gillard's breakdown of the forms.

Two, Wilkipedia.com, a source I introduced here myself, is a dubious source I've come to find out. I mean, Tulak uses Juyo? Where does it say that in the KOTOR series? Where officially? I've come to view Wilki as a nice change to Starwars.com (Which hasn't been updated in like six months), but neither are as official sources when compared to actual EU and canon material.

Three, if you've never fought side by side with a soldier in war, you will both likely die. It's why troops are trained together, and why in the Jedi Academy they practice duo duels and singles. Also, knowing your counterpart's moves and style drastically helps your teamwork. Drastically. Watch the teamwork of Obi-Wan and Anakin in ROTS.

So since Malak had to increase his power to battle Revan would Luke be able to kill him faster then Revan would Mace. The fight isn't on the Star Forge...

My point precisely. And Janus, I said in my post that the information from Wiki was debatable. And everybody, Vaapad USES one's dark side or dark feelings to aid them in battle. It USES dark practices, but is not strong against darksiders in itself.

Thats crap, we don't know how powerful Malak is compared to Revan or Mace.

Your comparing apple's to pears.

Seeing as Russia had lost 24 million people in WWII they would lose from the Roman army's who had more troops then Hitler did.

Never mind the fact that the Romans did not have any airforce, tanks or guns... It just does not make sence.

Ah, you guys wan't a setting or is that necessary. I want more opinions before I set it somewhere that would change the face of the duel drastically.

Setting doesn't matter... Malak takes Windu, then joins Revan and kills Luke. But if you want you can always give a setting.

Hmm... You said Luke is equal to or better then Revan. Revan beat the **** out of Malak in their duel on that ship. Mace on the other hand would be able to keep Revan busy till Luke's done.

Zodiac on crack, yet again my friend.

Windu, you and I are going to get along just fine. Grab an icon or avatar so you stick out better. I rather like your way of thinking.

Not to sound rude General, but you don't get it. Darth Revan is one of the most powerful Force-users of all time. If you value the opinions of others on the thread, check out the Yoda vs. Revan one. If Revan defeated Yoda according to some people, then how can Mace hold Revan off for longer than Malak can Luke? It's possible, now that I think about it, but it's probably not as likely.

And to make you happy, the setting is in the Dune Sea, on Tatooine. And please, nobody say that Luke's Skywalker side will take over and he'll be stupid and jump into the Sarlacc Pit.

Thank you Janus. And Zodiac I respect you for your persistence.

Originally posted by General Zodiac
Hmm... You said Luke is equal to or better then Revan. Revan beat the **** out of Malak in their duel on that ship. Mace on the other hand would be able to keep Revan busy till Luke's done.

Based on what?

Yeah Revan was more powerful then Malak but he still needed his time to beat Malak. And how do you compare Mace to Malak again? Right you don't, you base this on nothing but your own believes. And Luke would not face Malak, he wouldn't get the chance.

I'll get to that.

If Mace was a frontline general in the Clone Wars and slaughtered at least twenty or so Force users of reasonable skill, I would say he has a better chance against Malak. That's how I compare apples and pears. I find something they have similar, such as the immigrant picking them, and I match them up.

Well Mace was a frontline general in the Clone Wars, but he didn't touch a Force-user except in his duel with Ventress.

But I get your point.

Was that in one of those Scholastic Clone Wars books? I didn't read those... Couldn't bear being caught in the kids fiction section, buying them.

I got my mom to get the for me. JK.

Anyway, Janus, about how you said earlier that Malak is very underrated, I think that may be true to a small degree(this itself probably sounds like underration to some people). Mace solidly wupped Sidious though and I think he could take Malak.

About what you said about the greatlightsaber, I have read in several different places that it is a lightsaber around ten feet long, so Malak's isnt even close.

Same difference; he used an unusually large blade, which took great skill to use effectively, and altered his combat style.

True enough. I was under the impression the great lightsaber was smaller than that. I think you're thinking of the enormous, unwieldy prototypes, that the Old Republic soldiers used as weapons. But in any case, his blade is longer than Revan is tall. If you don't believe me, type ~ in KOTOR, and type in giveitem g_w_lghtsbr06

That's Malak's lightsaber.

Didn't I hear most people say that NJO Luke is thr strongest Jedi?

Yes, and that was probably from the fanboys. I too agree with that, but the strongest Force-user of all was probably one of the Sith, and it most likely would have been Anakin Skywalker had not Kenobi done his little ninja act.

Anakin definately had the potential. But the mindset he lacked. He had no control. And now he's paying half off at the tanning salon, so it doesn't matter really.

lol

Back to the battle, shall we? Although I must admimt, this little detour as amusing.

? suspo

If Kreia could kill three jedi masters with a wave of her hand, at the same time, Revan was stronger than Kreia, so what makes you think Revan couldnt do the same to Mace?

Because Mace is stronger then those 3 Jedi Masters. Sidious killed 3 in 3 seconds but not Mace.

Where does it say he's stronger than three Jedi masters (One of whom was known even to the Mandalorians BEFORE the war) who survived Revan's scourge of the Jedi and were of the old Republic? Vrook, in particular, was old enough to have gone to the academy with Exar Kun!

Please, Vrook alone is as good or better than mace. Besides, she used the force on them and killed them in a second, there was NO sign of force resistance to Kriea's attack. Revan would obliterate Mace before he got close to Malak. Assuming they dont start off RIGHT next to each other.

The story goes that Mace Windu was once ambushed by fourteen Gank killers, who surrounded him with weapons drawn. Not even a Jedi Master could deflect that many blaster bolts at once, but Windu slowly turned to make eye contact with each Gank, placed one hand on the lightsaber hanging at his hip, and spoke only three words: 'It's your decision.' One by one, the Ganks lay their weapons on the ground.
Let see them be scared of any of those Jedi.

So your saying Yoda couldn't have survived?

Yoda is like one of the few Jedi who is stronger then Mace. I was referring to the ones Kriea killed.

Both Mace and Malak would know that they had no chance against anyone but eachother, so that's what they'd do. Luke and Revan would duel, and I believe Luke would come out on top after a harrying duel to finnd Mace dead by Malak's hand. Malak may then be able to finish Luke, or vice-versa. HOWEVER, I highly doubt this would happen. It all depends on who has the greatest difference in power and skill, Luke and Revan, or Malak and Mace? With some help on this, I can then make my verdict.

Yeah, and in reference to Janus' post, what's to say Vrook isn't as, if not more powerful than Mace? I doubt it, but it's certainly possible.

I believe Mace is better then Malak.

No, Malak is better than Mace. Malak was about as good as Revan, who would own Mace in a saber duel. Not to mention, Malak would overpower Mace if entered a saber lock, which would probably happen. Besides,that fight he had with sids was pathetic, it was too slow, I was expecting it to be ALOT faster.

Why? Because of Vaapad? Or because he was second most powerful Jedi of his time? Malak was certainly equal to Mace, if not better.

Okay lets simplify this. Lets say Mace and Malak are equal in skill and power of the Force and saber mastery. Now with those taken into account, it should be a stalemate, right? WRONG! I reallly, really, didn't want to have to bring this up, but look at Malak. The guy's huge. Now, considering he has greater strength, he would be able to swing his blade stronger and faster than Mace. Now, I really, really, really, hate to use this argument because it's the most stupid one I've used, but I'm just trying to get the point across; Malak, the second most powerful warrior in REVAN's time, including Kreia and others, has to be stronger than Mace. Not by a huge difference of course. mace would be a formidable opponent to say the least, but Malak is better.

(This is for Zodiac)

But how do you know that Mace wouldn't last longer then Revan? Mace spent his entire life training and Malak had to go off to war. War might have taken off huge parts of his training that was needed.

You're a fool. And your little story about Mace sounds suspicious. What's the source?

Wikipedia.org

The one with the 14 guys? Its true.

Wilkipedia is your only source for that story? Glentract, where is it from?

Mace has Vapaad. He kicked Sidious' butt with it. Against darksiders, I think he is better than Yoda. Malak would die. Revan beat Malak TWICE. Remember, Malak fully regenerates during the fight and Revan still beat him. So Malak is less than half as powerful as KOTOR 1 Revan.

Thank you Glentract.

I wouldn't say that...but I agree that Mace dies, whoever said it. And man, going to war takes time of training in measured sequences. War is a 24/7 training ground. Tell me, who would you rather fight; a guy who'd trained for ten years in shooting ranges? Or a veteran of two wars who had single-handedly killed hundreds of enemies, and who'd ordered others to kill thousands more? I thought so.

Hmm. In war you have a better chance of dieing. In training you can hone your skills and perfect them like Mace did.

Dude, people train at home to go fight in wars. War is the training ground of all training grounds. And in response to what you just said; "In war you have a better chance of dying." Exaclty. And Malak didn't die, now did he? That alone is an ode to his success. Now, Mace survived the Clone Wars, yes, so details need to be added on Malak's ventures in war. Get Emperor Revan or Janus for that.

Let's not waste our time on Zodiac anymore. He's hopeless.

Revan and Luke are basically equal with Revan being a little stronger, as in 999 out of one thousand times they would draw and the one time Revan would win type stronger.

Malak and mace is hard to say, Malak has more experience more force powers and extremely long limbs with a long saber, but mace had a style that was good against darkside users, I'm still going with malak.

Now that being said what if Revan fought mace and malak fought luke, malak could hold off Luke long enough for Revan to finish off mace, Remember next to Revan malak was the most powerful force user in the galaxy, he had knowledge from some of the same sources of Revan maybe not as much but still that's a lot of knowledge.

Now all that being said we come down to one last factor, chemistry malak and Revan fought side by side for years they were the best of friends and did everything together so they fought together very well opposed to mace and luke who didn't know each other and would have trouble working together.

In the end sith win.

P.S when does malak beat kavar emperor Revan?

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Revan and Luke are basically equal with Revan being a little stronger, as in 999 out of one thousand times they would draw and the one time Revan would win type stronger.

Malak and mace is hard to say, Malak has more experience more force powers and extremely long limbs with a long saber, but mace had a style that was good against darkside users, I'm still going with malak.

Now that being said what if Revan fought mace and malak fought luke, malak could hold off Luke long enough for Revan to finish off mace, Remember next to Revan malak was the most powerful force user in the galaxy, he had knowledge from some of the same sources of Revan maybe not as much but still that's a lot of knowledge.

Now all that being said we come down to one last factor, chemistry malak and Revan fought side by side for years they were the best of friends and did everything together so they fought together very well opposed to mace and luke who didn't know each other and would have trouble working together.

In the end sith win.

P.S when does malak beat kavar emperor Revan?

He talks about it in KOTOR 2 I believe.

And why does everyone say that Mace's style helps against Dark Siders? I have never seen proof that it actually is better.

It doesn't. That's a myth.

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Revan and Luke are basically equal with Revan being a little stronger, as in 999 out of one thousand times they would draw and the one time Revan would win type stronger.

Malak and mace is hard to say, Malak has more experience more force powers and extremely long limbs with a long saber, but mace had a style that was good against darkside users, I'm still going with malak.

Now that being said what if Revan fought mace and malak fought luke, malak could hold off Luke long enough for Revan to finish off mace, Remember next to Revan malak was the most powerful force user in the galaxy, he had knowledge from some of the same sources of Revan maybe not as much but still that's a lot of knowledge.

Now all that being said we come down to one last factor, chemistry malak and Revan fought side by side for years they were the best of friends and did everything together so they fought together very well opposed to mace and luke who didn't know each other and would have trouble working together.

In the end sith win.

P.S when does malak beat kavar emperor Revan?

Zaj Kal El or whatever the name of the Master on Nar Shaddaa is, talks about about Kavar going there and losing from Malak badly just barely escaping alive.

Exactly. Vaapad uses dark feelings and practices, but in and of itself, it has no special advantages against the dark side.

Has anybody truly decided? Janus? Fishy?

Decided on what? The winner? Malak and Revan.

They work better together. Malak is more powerful then Mace, Revan can manage Luke possibly beat him, but together with Malak he sure as hell could.

I doubt Revan alone could take Luke (possible), but with Malak he could. But don't you think Luke could at least take Malak down with him? I mean he would be weakened from his battle with Mace. Just a thought.

No, actually I don't. I know he could in theory beat one of them. But then I rethink everything I ever posted about Malak and Revan and realise what a team those two would make. Think about it, they were training together for most of their lives they were best friends, they saved and destroyed the Republic together. They ended the Mandelorian threat together. Those two would help each other out in a fight, tobad Malak failed to see logic in the Dark Side and only saw the Dark Side. Together those two could have ruled the universe with ease and with perfection.

Anyways together those two make a great team and they are great fighters, I don't think there are many Master apprentice duo's that could match these two powerful Sith Lords if any. And seeing as I believe Luke would have his hands full with Revan alone and Malak knowing exactly what to do and when Luke would be screwed. Without taking anybody with him.

I can live with that. It was just a thought.

And I agree. My verdict is Revan and Malak win.

Well if you think differently feel free to share your reasons.

I too believed that Revan and Malak would win. It's just that Malak and Mace wouldn't be even, but they wouldn't be miles apart either. So I thought that Malak, after killing Windu in a challenging duel, would be somewhat weakened, and perhaps susceptible to a Force attack from Luke. But I realized that Luke would have his hands full with Revan.

I too believed that Revan and Malak would win. It's just that Malak and Mace wouldn't be even, but they wouldn't be miles apart either. So I thought that Malak, after killing Windu in a challenging duel, would be somewhat weakened, and perhaps susceptible to a Force attack from Luke. But I realized that Luke would have his hands full with Revan, too much so to protect against Malak.

Sorry for the double post.

I agree. With anybody else I would also think Luke could kill that person but Malak and Revan just know how to fight together.

I agree. So Revan and Malak it is. But after a good fight.

Oh yeah a nice fight to see.

Definetely. One of the best.

Got to get to a hundred posts!

Yeessssss!!!

One last question, are we saying kavar went to nar shadda and got pwned or what where did he go to get his ass kicking?

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
One last question, are we saying kavar went to nar shadda and got pwned or what where did he go to get his ass kicking?

It wasn't said.. Probably just space or some planet, who knows. What matters is that he got his ass kicked by Malak.

Well...before deceiding the winner, some points for the 4 people fighthing here.

NJO Luke:
- defeated Vader
- defeated Sidious who has altered his force powers with a chrystal
- defeated Joruus C'Baoth
- defeated Mara Jade
- threw an entire fleet out of a star system
- survived Exar Kuns spirit + Kyp Durron attacking him with force powers
- with a concussion of the brain, a badly injured leg (direct hit from a Ghamorrean with an axe !), and a damaged lung he could still levitate 30 metres and force push a metal shredder through an entire room
- he rendered an entire planet invisible for an infinite amount of time
- he was able to produce an illusion with the force to change his appearance deceiving all inhabitants of a space station and also other force users (without them knowing he actualy did anything)
- he kept that illusion running for more than a week in a place where people on the level of a Dark Jedi can't even ignite their lightsaber through the force being there for half an hour
- he can control black holes as well as gravity
- he trained people that could tear down entire mountains with force powers / he trained somebody that killed Marka Ragnos spirit (something that people like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun were afraid of even trying !)
- he singlehandly destroyed thousands of Yuuzhan Vong, killed their most powerful fighters (Slayers - Kyp Durron hit them with dozens of hits and wasn't able to kill one of them) with one hit each and killed their Supreme Overlord (so the most powerful fighter of an entire race of fighters) in a duel.

I guess, we all know what Revan did...

Malak:
- he defeated two Jedi (so probably he is something like Dooku in a lightsaber duel)
- he defeated Kavar
- he got his ass kicked by KOTOR I Revan at least two times in a row
- he didn't ever manage to step out of Revans shadow...hell he wasn't even able to kill Revan when Revan was busy fighting 5 Jedi.

Mace:
-he invented his own lightsaber style when he was a Padawan
-he posess his unique Shatterpoint ability
-he is the second best Jedi duelist known (except Yoda)
-he defeated Sidious in a lightsaber duel
-he probably can kill Dooku in a lightsaber duel
-he destroyed hundrets or thousands of battle droids (+ the seismic tank on Dantooine) even without having a weapon
-he killed Jango Fett
-he defeated Asajj Ventress

And now come on people. Revan defeating NJO Luke ? Please. Revan is powerful, he is a great swordfighter. No doubt about it. But he still isn't Luke Skywalker. You can call me a Luke fanboy, you can argue that point for years with me but Luke pretty much can't be killed by ANYBODY in the SW universe. He could simply make himself invisible and not senseable through the force (he actualy posesses that abilities), sneak up behind Revan and cut Revan into pieces with his lightsabers before Revan would know that somebody is there.

Mace vs Malak:
Mace will just use his Shatterpoint ability, find Malaks weak point and exploid it. Hell...Windu invented his own fighting style when he was 12 or 13 years old, he became a Council member at the age of 28 (an age were "normal" people are just ready to become Jedi Knights - Obi-Wan became a Knight at the age of 25) being the youngest Council member in the history of the Jedi Order. Actually that says a lot about Mace force knowledge and lightsaber mastery and I'd say he clearly is more powerful than Malak.

So I'd say that Mace would defeat Malak and you'll end up with NJO Luke + Mace vs Revan with Jedi winning. And please don't say something about "teamwork"...they would have no time for teamwork here.

Thats just bullshit.

First of all about Malak

- He ruled thousands of Sith
- He made the Republic cry for mercy
- He almost destroyed the republic
- He had an amazing control over the force
- He had enough power to control a star.
- He defeated and ruled over Jedi Councillors and Ex - Jedi councillors.
- He was a legendaric fighter
- He was a front line general during two wars in which he fought a lot.

You are underestimating both Malak and Revan by a lot and overestimating Mace. And half of the things you posted about Mace are from as impressive as the things that Malak did. When you post a list like that at least make it fair.

NJO luke and mace win this, malak is the weak link in this fight.

Malak is far more powreful then what most people give him credit for. He ruled countless of people including council members. Defeated people with a lot of experience and was seen as the greatest duelist of his time second to Revan only, and that was a time of war when there were a lot of duelist. Just becauase he lost to Revan doesn't mean he is weak.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...before deceiding the winner, some points for the 4 people fighthing here.

NJO Luke:
- defeated Vader
- defeated Sidious who has altered his force powers with a chrystal
- defeated Joruus C'Baoth
- defeated Mara Jade
- threw an entire fleet out of a star system
- survived Exar Kuns spirit + Kyp Durron attacking him with force powers
- with a concussion of the brain, a badly injured leg (direct hit from a Ghamorrean with an axe !), and a damaged lung he could still levitate 30 metres and force push a metal shredder through an entire room
- he rendered an entire planet invisible for an infinite amount of time
- he was able to produce an illusion with the force to change his appearance deceiving all inhabitants of a space station and also other force users (without them knowing he actualy did anything)
- he kept that illusion running for more than a week in a place where people on the level of a Dark Jedi can't even ignite their lightsaber through the force being there for half an hour
- he can control black holes as well as gravity
- he trained people that could tear down entire mountains with force powers / he trained somebody that killed Marka Ragnos spirit (something that people like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun were afraid of even trying !)
- he singlehandly destroyed thousands of Yuuzhan Vong, killed their most powerful fighters (Slayers - Kyp Durron hit them with dozens of hits and wasn't able to kill one of them) with one hit each and killed their Supreme Overlord (so the most powerful fighter of an entire race of fighters) in a duel.

I guess, we all know what Revan did...

Malak:
- he defeated two Jedi (so probably he is something like Dooku in a lightsaber duel)
- he defeated Kavar
- he got his ass kicked by KOTOR I Revan at least two times in a row
- he didn't ever manage to step out of Revans shadow...hell he wasn't even able to kill Revan when Revan was busy fighting 5 Jedi.

Mace:
-he invented his own lightsaber style when he was a Padawan
-he posess his unique Shatterpoint ability
-he is the second best Jedi duelist known (except Yoda)
-he defeated Sidious in a lightsaber duel
-he probably can kill Dooku in a lightsaber duel
-he destroyed hundrets or thousands of battle droids (+ the seismic tank on Dantooine) even without having a weapon
-he killed Jango Fett
-he defeated Asajj Ventress

And now come on people. Revan defeating NJO Luke ? Please. Revan is powerful, he is a great swordfighter. No doubt about it. But he still isn't Luke Skywalker. You can call me a Luke fanboy, you can argue that point for years with me but Luke pretty much can't be killed by ANYBODY in the SW universe. He could simply make himself invisible and not senseable through the force (he actualy posesses that abilities), sneak up behind Revan and cut Revan into pieces with his lightsabers before Revan would know that somebody is there.

Mace vs Malak:
Mace will just use his Shatterpoint ability, find Malaks weak point and exploid it. Hell...Windu invented his own fighting style when he was 12 or 13 years old, he became a Council member at the age of 28 (an age were "normal" people are just ready to become Jedi Knights - Obi-Wan became a Knight at the age of 25) being the youngest Council member in the history of the Jedi Order. Actually that says a lot about Mace force knowledge and lightsaber mastery and I'd say he clearly is more powerful than Malak.

So I'd say that Mace would defeat Malak and you'll end up with NJO Luke + Mace vs Revan with Jedi winning. And please don't say something about "teamwork"...they would have no time for teamwork here.

^^^^OH YEAAAAH

And then you accuse other people of being Bias...

No I just dislike it when people claim that someone knows all. Name one thing about Luke Skywalker Nai Fohl posted that isn' true.

Who cares about that... What I care about is that he did not post a lot about Malak. Things that would make Malak far more impressive then he is displayed there. And Nothing about Revan at all. Nothing. What kind of a debate is that.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...before deceiding the winner, some points for the 4 people fighthing here.

NJO Luke:
- defeated Vader
- defeated Sidious who has altered his force powers with a chrystal
- defeated Joruus C'Baoth
- defeated Mara Jade
- threw an entire fleet out of a star system
- survived Exar Kuns spirit + Kyp Durron attacking him with force powers
- with a concussion of the brain, a badly injured leg (direct hit from a Ghamorrean with an axe !), and a damaged lung he could still levitate 30 metres and force push a metal shredder through an entire room
- he rendered an entire planet invisible for an infinite amount of time
- he was able to produce an illusion with the force to change his appearance deceiving all inhabitants of a space station and also other force users (without them knowing he actualy did anything)
- he kept that illusion running for more than a week in a place where people on the level of a Dark Jedi can't even ignite their lightsaber through the force being there for half an hour
- he can control black holes as well as gravity
- he trained people that could tear down entire mountains with force powers / he trained somebody that killed Marka Ragnos spirit (something that people like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun were afraid of even trying !)
- he singlehandly destroyed thousands of Yuuzhan Vong, killed their most powerful fighters (Slayers - Kyp Durron hit them with dozens of hits and wasn't able to kill one of them) with one hit each and killed their Supreme Overlord (so the most powerful fighter of an entire race of fighters) in a duel.

I guess, we all know what Revan did...

Malak:
- he defeated two Jedi (so probably he is something like Dooku in a lightsaber duel)
- he defeated Kavar
- he got his ass kicked by KOTOR I Revan at least two times in a row
- he didn't ever manage to step out of Revans shadow...hell he wasn't even able to kill Revan when Revan was busy fighting 5 Jedi.

Mace:
-he invented his own lightsaber style when he was a Padawan
-he posess his unique Shatterpoint ability
-he is the second best Jedi duelist known (except Yoda)
-he defeated Sidious in a lightsaber duel
-he probably can kill Dooku in a lightsaber duel
-he destroyed hundrets or thousands of battle droids (+ the seismic tank on Dantooine) even without having a weapon
-he killed Jango Fett
-he defeated Asajj Ventress

And now come on people. Revan defeating NJO Luke ? Please. Revan is powerful, he is a great swordfighter. No doubt about it. But he still isn't Luke Skywalker. You can call me a Luke fanboy, you can argue that point for years with me but Luke pretty much can't be killed by ANYBODY in the SW universe. He could simply make himself invisible and not senseable through the force (he actualy posesses that abilities), sneak up behind Revan and cut Revan into pieces with his lightsabers before Revan would know that somebody is there.

Mace vs Malak:
Mace will just use his Shatterpoint ability, find Malaks weak point and exploid it. Hell...Windu invented his own fighting style when he was 12 or 13 years old, he became a Council member at the age of 28 (an age were "normal" people are just ready to become Jedi Knights - Obi-Wan became a Knight at the age of 25) being the youngest Council member in the history of the Jedi Order. Actually that says a lot about Mace force knowledge and lightsaber mastery and I'd say he clearly is more powerful than Malak.

So I'd say that Mace would defeat Malak and you'll end up with NJO Luke + Mace vs Revan with Jedi winning. And please don't say something about "teamwork"...they would have no time for teamwork here.

Everyone makes a lightsaber when their young, including every single character. Mace was not the only one. He killed Jango Fett. Good for him. I bet you everything in the world that Malak and Revan would just have to move their hand to choke him to death. Mace can't just find a shatterpoint right away, Assajji Ventress was about the strength of a below average Dark Jedi during Malak and Revan's time, Revan would be smart enough not to just sit their and probably get out of the way so Luke can't kill him, and he would be smart enough to find another way to find out where Luke is, and he was not the youngest ever, he was the youngest since like 300 years ago.

Originally posted by Fishy
- He ruled thousands of Sith


Oh great. Nihilus did so, Sion did so, Kreia did so. Ah well...Sidious ruled trillions of people. Not much of an argument at all.



Don't give Malak the credit for Revans work. Malak did actualy nothing but hunt for Bastilla.



Also Revans work. Not Malaks.



Oh yes. So amazing that Revan just stepped in and defeated him two times (at least).



And the Star Forge again. Sorry...every dark sider posessing at least a little bit of power, willpower and knowledge about the dark side could have done that. Sidious could have done that and I would guess even Dooku could have done that.



Oh yes. Who ? Actually we only know that he defeated Kavar and Kavar was able to escape. The Exile (DS) killed Kavar with ease. If not the Exile than Kreia does it with a single hand movement. Oh...all that powerful Jedi Council members and Jedi Knights...

-Kavar ran away from 4 Soldiers trying to capture him
-Atris nearly got killed by the handmaiden
-even Atton did kill a lot of Jedi

That people are weak compared to the people running around in the films.



Front line general ? How much generals do you know that are participating in front line combat A LOT ? That again is an assumption. Malak and Revan just appeared on the battlefield for the "realy" hard work (killing Mandalore, the Echani masters - stuff like that). That is what is proven from the KOTOR games.



No. You are overestimating Malak and Revan by a lot and underestimate Mace. Just go with the things that are proven and don't build you oppinion on assumptions. And with "assumptions" I mean "things that Revan and Malak might have done" and "people they fought that might have been as powerful as..."

Just take a look on their opponents:
- Jedi and Dark Jedi could be destroyed by PT Padawans
- Jedi Council members running away from threats people like Yoda or Mace would get rid off in seconds

If you don't believe me go and play the KOTOR games again and watch how that people move, how they fight, how they use the force. They are lame as hell and if stupidity would cause pain they all would immediatly die from it. Not to mention that all the things Malak and Revan did were done in a game universe where the game physics allow people to survive multiple direkt blaster hits and lightsaber strikes.

Originally posted by HimoKun
Everyone makes a lightsaber when their young, including every single character. Mace was not the only one.


Sorry if you got me wrong. He created Vaapad when he was 12 or 13 years old so his own fighting style. Basically something that noone ever did before.



And it also won't take him hours to do so...



Again: Assumption without any prove. Watch the Dark Jedi you fight in the KOTOR games, compare them to Ventress (who nearly defeated Anakin) and tell me again they could have done that...



Sure he will find somebody who can't be seen and can't be sensed through the force. Not that Luke would ever do such a thing...



He is said to be the youngest EVER. In this case that means at least for 1,000 years more likely from KOTOR times on.

Of course it's different. And the developers won't change the froms from person to person. In th movies, all these different forms were used, but the only real noticable ones were Dooku's, Mace's, and Yoda's and Qui Gonn's. All the rest were almost the same. Sorry about the Mace thing. I thought you said that Mace had made a lightsaber when he was a padawan.

And not all of it was Revan's work. Revan went down early on in the war, and Malak had to finish. And he almost did. And he did make the Republic cry for mercy, since he was destroying planets whole planets while Revan was not.

Let's see on the generals leading their troops. Well, Alexander the Great did, all the field generals during the ancient times, and alot of the generals during the Napoleonic era.

You're going down on us for assumptions, while you're doing them almost as much as the Revan supporters. How do we know any Dark Side user could use the Star Forge? Again, your assuming that Kavar was weak, again with the assuming, you think they only took down the major people, again, your assuming that Mace and Yoda would easily dispatch of them, your assuming their weaker than movie characters, and what Fishy means by Sith is fighting men, not just normal women and children, Nihilus didn't come close, niether did Kreia or Sion.

Time for my dissection of your dissection fo my post:

We don't know how long it would take Mace to find a shatterpoint. So we can both assume how long it would be.

Yes, I do watch the Drak Jedi in KOTOR, and I do believe they are the same strength as Assaji is.

And I'm not talking about sensing through the force, he would do something not involving trying to sense Luke using the force.

Where does it say he's the youngest ever?

Nai Fohl, I've respected your posts since I first looked at this forum, but here, I think you're wrong.

- Mace's Shatterpoint ability is somewhat overrated. It's obviously useful in a ny situation; I won't deny that. But Malak is severely underestimated. Of course he was easy to beat, it was a video game. Secondly, Even if Mace did find his Shatterpoint, he would have had to fight him for enough time to study his motions, styles, and behaviours in combat; meaning he'd have to stand his own against an undeniably powerful Sith Lord. Now, maybe he could pull it off, but chances are that Malak's superior Force power and control of the Dark Side would overwhelm Mace, but only after a difficult battle.

- Secondly, about Luke's power. I will never, ever, ever deny his power and sttatus as one of the most powerful beings the galaxy has ever known. But I believe that certain Sith such as Exar Kun or Marka Ragnos could take him in a fight. As for his ability to change his appearance and mask his presence, just look at Darth Sidious. He confronted in conversations such mighty Jedi as Mace Windu and Yoda himself, and retained his identity as a Sith Lord until he wished to reveal it. Also, in the novelization, the face of Palpatine is but a mask created by mysterious Force techniques, which is why it is painfully destroyed by Sidous' own lightning. Anyway, I highly doubt that Luke would need or get the chance to "morph" in the middle of battle. I think he could take Revan, but not before Malak defeated Mace and joined his master against Luke.

Thank you Darth Windu. I will officially give you the rank of "Senior patroler of the anti noob squad". And he is right, Mace has never really faced anyone like Malak. Let's outline his advantages:

-Experience versus other lightsaber wielders

-Force Control (Maybe strenching it a little)

-Height (He has five inches on Mace)

-Reach (He's got long arms)

-Raw Force (As in physical force)

I also believe he would be using something like Form 2 or Form 5, which Form 5 would make more sense and since Malak has the complete height advantage, his swings would severely affect Mace.

Lol. I don't Think Nai Fohl's a noob, but cool. And as to Malak's advantages, I agree. His build would be perfect for taking advantage of Form V; he could use it to full potential. Now Mace, in all his fighting savvy, could probably find a way around this, but it would certainly hamper his ability to concentrate and try and find Malak's weaknesses.

Originally posted by HimoKun
And not all of it was Revan's work. Revan went down early on in the war, and Malak had to finish. And he almost did. And he did make the Republic cry for mercy, since he was destroying planets whole planets while Revan was not.

Erm...no.
The Jedi Civil war lasted for 3 years. Most of the time it was Revan who commanded the Sith forces. Revan was away only for the events you can see in KOTOR I. He was the one that did most of the work.



They were on the field but not realy participating in battles. At least they were not running around on the frontlines.



1.)
We know that the Rakatan could control the Star Forge. Yes. They were a whole species of force users. Still one of them alone would not be as powerful as the Sith Lords running around. And it's pretty much useful to assume that somebody like Sidious or Dooku could handle that thing. Sidious still was a "regular" Dark Lord of the Sith. Keep that in mind.

2.)
I don't have to assume Kavar is weak. You can see that for yourself when you play KOTOR II the Dark Side way. And I'm just talking about force powers. For lightsaber combat: He uses two lightsabers so at least he has to know what he does since that is the most difficult way of lightsaber combat. Still he's nothing like Yoda, Mace, Dooku or Sidious.

3.)
I don't have to assume that Revan and Malak only fought the "major" people. They had possibly hundrets of Dark Jedi on their side. What did they do if Malak and Revan would have wasted anyone on the field alone ? Just imagine you are a king and you are fighting the army of another king. Would you waste your time with the "normal" people running around on the battlefield ?

4.)
Just take a look at the games. Take a look at how your opponents fight. If 3 guys with lightsabers and 10 people with blasters attack you and you still survive that - does that say more about your own skill or the skill of the people you faced ?

5.)
I know what Fishy meaned. Still...take a look at KOTOR II and count all that Dark Jedi and Sith you are facing.



He can sense the connection between people just looking at them.
Find a shatterpoint doesn't also take him very long. Take a look at the ROTS novel: He does that before disarming Sidious so basically after 20 or 30 seconds fighting. Not that much time.



"Using the Force, Asajj whittled away the clone trooper guards, and then began a stunning lightsaber duel with Anakin. So skilled was she, Asajj even proved to be a challenge to the fabled Chosen One of Jedi legend. To defeat her, Anakin needed the edge granted by giving into anger. In a furious counter-attack, young Skywalker repulsed Ventress, who nevertheless survived." ~starwars.com database

The Dark Jedi in KotOR woulnd't survive Anakin giving into his anger. They won't even survive Anakin attacking them in a "normal" way.



That is clearly stated in different sources. I don't know if that is stated in the movies. If not you would have to check other sources.

I don't know exactly where this point came up, but I think Assaj Ventress is an above average Dark Jedi. If she could almost wound/defeat Obi Wan, who I consider to be an exceptional swordsman, I think she's better than the "average" Dark Jedi of Revan's time. Obviously, she's weaker than Revan and Malak's best lietutenants and supporters, but she's not bad. Not exceptionally, freakishly powerful, but not weak at all.

Originally posted by Darth Windu
- Mace's Shatterpoint ability is somewhat overrated. It's obviously useful in a ny situation; I won't deny that. But Malak is severely underestimated. Of course he was easy to beat, it was a video game. Secondly, Even if Mace did find his Shatterpoint, he would have had to fight him for enough time to study his motions, styles, and behaviours in combat; meaning he'd have to stand his own against an undeniably powerful Sith Lord. Now, maybe he could pull it off, but chances are that Malak's superior Force power and control of the Dark Side would overwhelm Mace, but only after a difficult battle.


Finding the shatterpoint doesn't need that much time. As I said Mace did it in the fight with Sidious before he disarmed him so that probably took him less than a minute. And Sidious is not that bad with force powers and in a lightsaber combat.



Erm...well...it wouldn't aid him if he would "morph" in the middle of a battle. That was not the point.

The point is that NJO Luke can kill Yuuzhan Vong wearing melee weapons that can't be penetrated by lightsabers, armors that can't be penetrated by lightsabers, that can only hardly be manipulated through the force and posess the physical strength of 2 human soldiers each. And he not only did kill thousands of them basically on his own. He killed at least 8 of their strongest warriors with one hit each (where one of them was too much for Kyp Durron) and used something like force lightning to instantly kill one of them. And after doing this he just killed their unquestioned leader (the most powerful of them all) in a duel.

Actualy I never saw people like Ragnos, Sadow, Kun or Revan doing something compareable to that.

I can see Naga and Marak doing that. I can see Revan coming close to that, but falling short by a little bit, same with Kun.

You've never heard of Revan or Kun doing something like that? Kun, the one who froze an entire Senate Chamber, killed one of the most powerful jedi Masters of the time, and walked out like nothing happened? Again, if you search on other recent posts, you will find sufficient info on this from Darkstar. And Ragnos doesn't really need explanation. Well he does, but look. He ruled for 150 years as the Dark Lord of the Sith, and died on a death bed of old age. Have you ever heard of a Star Wars character other than Yoda dying of age alone. (Force-users who entered combat often) Not to mention that he apprenticed the star throwing Sadow, and that Sith Lords for millenia after his demise feared his spirit? Feared air particles? And Revan has been discussed in every post for like, the past several months. Got to go though, I'll go more in depth later. It's nice to debate with someone competent.

Well, freezing the Vong won't help if their armour is supposedly resistant to lightsaber and blaster attacks, but Exar still might be able to do it, Revan could probably pull it off with a death field, Marka and Naga would be able to it about as easily as Luke did it.

The thing is is that the Vong are immune to the Force until something happens; it's confusing as wack, but whatever. What I meant was that there are a couple of Sith Lords who are actually more powerful than Luke. He'd give anyone a run for their money, no doubt. But some people are simply too powerful for him. Now, I think that he's stronger than Revan, and is capable of beating him in a battle. But some people, such as Exar Kun and Marka Ragnos, are in my eyes, more powerful than he is.

Luke and Mace. ALL the way.

I respect your opinion Darth Windu, and Nai Fohl. Just not Darth Somebody. Why would Mace and Luke win?

Mace is skilled and Vaapad which is best used against the Darkside and everyone says Luke would defeat Revan.

Vapaad is not better against the Dark Side, and not everybody says Luke would defeat Revan and if he would it would take him a shit load of time. Far to long actually.

Vaapad has nothing to do with being better against the dark side, its all up to who is using the style, thats what matters most. Mace is powerful best swordsman, and with his Vaapad it only makes him stronger, whih alows him to use dark side powers.
Again: Its all up to who has control over the style.

Originally posted by Darth Infidus
No, Malak is better than Mace. Malak was about as good as Revan, who would own Mace in a saber duel. Not to mention, Malak would overpower Mace if entered a saber lock, which would probably happen. Besides,that fight he had with sids was pathetic, it was too slow, I was expecting it to be ALOT faster.

y can't u understand that the speed means very little Anakins fight was the fastest and him and Obi r not the most powerful.

Vary true; it was slow because Jackson and McDiarmid are not as good duelists in real life as Christensen and McGregor are. Do you honestly think that either Obi Wan or Anakin could have defeated Mace or Sidious as of ROTS?

Originally posted by Darth Windu
You've never heard of Revan or Kun doing something like that? Kun, the one who froze an entire Senate Chamber, killed one of the most powerful jedi Masters of the time, and walked out like nothing happened? Again, if you search on other recent posts, you will find sufficient info on this from Darkstar. And Ragnos doesn't really need explanation. Well he does, but look. He ruled for 150 years as the Dark Lord of the Sith, and died on a death bed of old age. Have you ever heard of a Star Wars character other than Yoda dying of age alone. (Force-users who entered combat often) Not to mention that he apprenticed the star throwing Sadow, and that Sith Lords for millenia after his demise feared his spirit? Feared air particles? And Revan has been discussed in every post for like, the past several months. Got to go though, I'll go more in depth later. It's nice to debate with someone competent.

Actually many people do forget something about Sith Lords like Sadow or Exar Kun. They didn't do everything they did with sheer force powers they did it with Sith magic / alchemy / technology.

Kun has frozen the entire Senate Chamber. Yes. Vodo who is obviously not as powerful as Yoda or NJO Luke resisted that effect. He used technology to blow up Ossus as well as Naga Sadow did to blow up stars (his ship channeld his force powers). Now take away their Sith magic / artifacts / technology and leave them with an opponent like NJO Luke who is more powerful than them having all their stuff (somebody that can create and control black holes is pretty likely able to destroy planets with his willpower). And now tell me, how they would defeat him ? Hell...Ragnos spirit was defeated by one of Lukes students (no matter how much I hate that idea - it's as much "canon" as the KOTOR games are).

The only one of the "ancient" Sith that did everything he did with sheer force potential was Revan during the events of KOTOR I. What he did before it and after it might also be product of using Sith magic, artifacts, technology. And he still did nothing comperable to Luke in the NJO books.

Now...Revan is great but he will still lose to NJO Luke as anyone else would except a full developed Anakin who never was around and Marka Ragnos at his peak (maybe).

And for Mace vs Malak: Mace defeated Sidious and he will most likely do just the same with Malak. Read the ROTS novel. Mace could fight with a lightsaber in a "automatic" mode...he just doesn't think about it, his Vaapad (meaning his state of mind while using it) throws everything right back that is thrown at him through the force and for his lightsaber skills: Does anybody want to argue that somebody who invented his own fighting style at the age of 12 or 13 years and practiced that thing for more than 40 years can pretty much defeat anyone else in a lightsaber duel (as long as it's not Yoda or Tulak Hord himself) ?
Now add his unique Shatterpoint ability here that will show him the weakpoints of his opponent and Malak is dead as greater range or more strength won't give him the edge here.

Still Mace and NJO Luke win.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Actually many people do forget something about Sith Lords like Sadow or Exar Kun. They didn't do everything they did with sheer force powers they did it with Sith magic / alchemy / technology.

Kun has frozen the entire Senate Chamber. Yes. Vodo who is obviously not as powerful as Yoda or NJO Luke resisted that effect. He used technology to blow up Ossus as well as Naga Sadow did to blow up stars (his ship channeld his force powers). Now take away their Sith magic / artifacts / technology and leave them with an opponent like NJO Luke who is more powerful than them having all their stuff (somebody that can create and control black holes is pretty likely able to destroy planets with his willpower). And now tell me, how they would defeat him ? Hell...Ragnos spirit was defeated by one of Lukes students (no matter how much I hate that idea - it's as much "canon" as the KOTOR games are).

The only one of the "ancient" Sith that did everything he did with sheer force potential was Revan during the events of KOTOR I. What he did before it and after it might also be product of using Sith magic, artifacts, technology. And he still did nothing comperable to Luke in the NJO books.

Now...Revan is great but he will still lose to NJO Luke as anyone else would except a full developed Anakin who never was around and Marka Ragnos at his peak (maybe).

And for Mace vs Malak: Mace defeated Sidious and he will most likely do just the same with Malak. Read the ROTS novel. Mace could fight with a lightsaber in a "automatic" mode...he just doesn't think about it, his Vaapad (meaning his state of mind while using it) throws everything right back that is thrown at him through the force and for his lightsaber skills: Does anybody want to argue that somebody who invented his own fighting style at the age of 12 or 13 years and practiced that thing for more than 40 years can pretty much defeat anyone else in a lightsaber duel (as long as it's not Yoda or Tulak Hord himself) ?
Now add his unique Shatterpoint ability here that will show him the weakpoints of his opponent and Malak is dead as greater range or more strength won't give him the edge here.

Still Mace and NJO Luke win.

well said

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Finding the shatterpoint doesn't need that much time. As I said Mace did it in the fight with Sidious before he disarmed him so that probably took him less than a minute. And Sidious is not that bad with force powers and in a lightsaber combat.



Erm...well...it wouldn't aid him if he would "morph" in the middle of a battle. That was not the point.

The point is that NJO Luke can kill Yuuzhan Vong wearing melee weapons that can't be penetrated by lightsabers, armors that can't be penetrated by lightsabers, that can only hardly be manipulated through the force and posess the physical strength of 2 human soldiers each. And he not only did kill thousands of them basically on his own. He killed at least 8 of their strongest warriors with one hit each (where one of them was too much for Kyp Durron) and used something like force lightning to instantly kill one of them. And after doing this he just killed their unquestioned leader (the most powerful of them all) in a duel.

Actualy I never saw people like Ragnos, Sadow, Kun or Revan doing something compareable to that.

Revan kills hundreds of mandalorians and their leader, kills or turns hundreds if not thousands of jedi and then defeats the sith empire killing hundreds of them with almost no training. that's very comparable. Kun kills tons of jedi including the best masters and stalls thousands of jedi long enough to become a spirit which consumes an entire race of warriors after that he silmutainously force chokes 14 jedi and rips lukes spirit from his body.Also very comparable.

Luke was far superior to the vong in close combat and could manipulate creatures that made black holes, the first is impressive the second isn't especially considering he nearly has a heart attack when he does it. Instantly killing has been done before, look at what kreia did so who cares. as for killing lots of vong, The sith lords killed lots of force users in battle particularly exar and Revan. Revan also killed many mandalorians in battle who are probably better fighters then vong as you remember the jedi frequently got slashes in on vong that damaged their armour the mandalorians were probably better fighters but the vong could take a bigger beating. From what I've read of NJO jedi>vong and Revan killed thousands of jedi/sith including many of them on the star forge when he had little or no training.

Luke hasn't impressed me as much as Revan has so I'm sticking with Revan, as for malak against mace, I'm not sure I see malak with a better control of the force but mace with only slightly better swordsmanship and malak has more experience, I still need to go back and see if anyone has any major arguements for mace so I'm not completely decided yet.

Revan actually could have more potential than Luke, full potential anakin is 200% as powerful as sidious luke is 80% as powerful as his father which is 160% Revan pwns the crap out of sidious power wise so he could very possibly be in the 170%-180% range.

Not only does Revan achieve his potential but his force knowledge is far greater then lukes he had entire planets to learn from luke had a single jedi library, Revan had tons of experience fighting force users Luke had less and the force users he fought would get wrecked by Revan easily, The only impressive thing Luke did was kill a bunch of vong in a fight, other then that what has he done that's so great, manipulate some animals? change gravity a little bit? Revan killed many more people than luke did as well as many many jedi and sith and many mandalorians both of which are more skilled then vong. Revan in the end has much more knowledge of the force and lightsaber combat, tons of practice at both, more practice against force users equal or greater potential, sith artifacts that give him power and equal speed, now throw in that he can identify luke's form as form 5 and exploit the weaknesses in it as well as having battle pre-cog which will keep him always at least one step ahead of luke and he can definitley win.

NJO Luke learns force powers no other Jedi knows. He defeated the Vongs which makes those Sith Revan fought look like weaklings.

um...luke learns on instant kill power no one knows but there are many other instant kill powers like the one kreia used and jedi>vong and the sith from revans time are just as powerful if not more powerful then those during luke's.

Luke had to go through more Vongs then Revan with the Sith.

A sith is more powerful then a Vong... And Revan and Malak both killed more Mandelorians then Luke killed vong, so that hardly matters

Revan and Malak. Luke had to go through a butt load with him and his lightsaber.

he meant they each by themselves killed more then luke did. never mind the countless echani warriors they mowed down the thousands of jedi and the sith empire Revan singlehandedly ended.

Yeah you're right. Luke never fought Mandelorians.

God your behaving like a child, thats now what I said. Revan and Malak alone killed more Mandelorians and Sith and jedi then Luke killed Vong.

Yeah Man. Sith and Jedi. Luke fought just as many if not more Vongs, Dark Jedi, StormTroopers, Reborn, and so on.

I very much doubt it. And i'm not even counting the countless of weak republic and sith soldiers Revan killed it would be to much to mention.

Revan killed thousands(plural) of mandalrians. Thousands of force users. Thousands of solidiers and droids. enough said, force users>vong,mandalorians>vong. sith from revans time>dark jedi from lukes.

Let's go through the advantages that Malak has over Mace:

-Strength
-Height
-Reach
-Experience

The reach keeps Mace away from Malak; Height gives Maul the greater force with his lightsaber attacks; Strength adds onto the advantages of Reach and Height; Experience gives him the edge since Mace has defeated one person intent on killing him.


Now, for Revan's advantages of Luke:
-Experience

I can't argue height, since we don't know Revan's, but the main thing is his ability to fight someone with a lightsaber. Luke fought about 2 times as less as Revan, and Revan's opponents would probably be the harder ones.

Originally posted by Fishy
A sith is more powerful then a Vong... And Revan and Malak both killed more Mandelorians then Luke killed vong, so that hardly matters

LOL...sorry Fishy.

a) Give me some proof that Malak and Revan personaly defeated more Mandalorians than Luke defeated YV's on their own.

b) Even if you can do that (and I doubt that) the normal Yuuzhan Vong is TWICE as strong as every human soldier (Mandalorians are humanoid), their warriors are even stronger and their slayers are stronger than the warriors. Not to mention the Supreme Overlord who is even stronger than the slayers.

c) All of the Yuuzhan Vong warriors and slayers wear meleeweapons that can't be penetrated by a lightsaber and armours that can't be penetrated by a lightsaber.

d) They are nearly immune to force effects.

e) Kyp Durron who is said to be the strongest force user in the NJO (except the Solo children and Luke himself) couldn't kill a single YV slayer. Luke wasted 7 of them at once and instakilled another one of them.

So much for Mandalorians and Sith > Vong.

And again the Revan fanbias hits the thread hard.



Go on and PROOVE it. There is actualy NO way to come close to Lukes force potential except being Anakins son. Well maybe you want to contradict Lucas himself on that point. I won't.

And have you ever come across the "Dark Empire" comics ? Sidious unleashed a force storm that "beamed" Luke through the entire galaxy. He could destroy entire fleets with his sheer force powers. I know that he had a crystal that added to his force powers but still that is quite impressive. So much for Revan "pwning" Sidious. That's senseless.



Yeah. I can see Revan "wrecking" Vader and Sidious "easily". Muhar.

The force users Revan fought would get destroyed by Luke in the blink of an eye except Malak - the rest of them is pretty much crap when it comes to force use and lightsaber combat. If you don't believe me go and play KOTOR again. That also counts for Mandalorians (watch their champions vs the Exile in KOTOR II) and all kinds of "sith" except the Sith Lords.

And if you want to base everything on how many people other people killed.
Luke:
- destroyed the death star (more than a 100.000+ dead people)
- several thousands of YV (see above)
- several hundrets of stormtroopers
- dozens of headhunters (ROTJ, SotE)
- Black Sun members (SotE - Darth Maul had problems with them)
- an entire Academy of Dark Jedi
- cloned Sidious
- tons of dark siders, rests of the Imperial army and so on...

"Change gravity a bit" ? Please think about how much force power it would require to change gravity. And do I have to tell you that one of Lukes students could tear down an entire mountain with his force powers ?

And for lightsaber combat: Luke received personal training from Obi-Wans spirit (form III mastery), Yodas spirit (form IV mastery), Anakins spirit (form V mastery) not to say that he pretty likely used his own fighting style (two lightsabers) that was enough to wreck thousands of pretty strong warriors that were trained in melee combat for their entire life (YV) ?

At least I'm getting bored to explain people how Revans battle pre-cog works. Please take a look at the "Yoda vs Revan" thread for that point.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
LOL...sorry Fishy.

a) Give me some proof that Malak and Revan personaly defeated more Mandalorians than Luke defeated YV's on their own.

b) Even if you can do that (and I doubt that) the normal Yuuzhan Vong is TWICE as strong as every human soldier (Mandalorians are humanoid), their warriors are even stronger and their slayers are stronger than the warriors. Not to mention the Supreme Overlord who is even stronger than the slayers.

c) All of the Yuuzhan Vong warriors and slayers wear meleeweapons that can't be penetrated by a lightsaber and armours that can't be penetrated by a lightsaber.

d) They are nearly immune to force effects.

e) Kyp Durron who is said to be the strongest force user in the NJO (except the Solo children and Luke himself) couldn't kill a single YV slayer. Luke wasted 7 of them at once and instakilled another one of them.

So much for Mandalorians and Sith > Vong.

And again the Revan fanbias hits the thread hard.



Go on and PROOVE it. There is actualy NO way to come close to Lukes force potential except being Anakins son. Well maybe you want to contradict Lucas himself on that point. I won't.

And have you ever come across the "Dark Empire" comics ? Sidious unleashed a force storm that "beamed" Luke through the entire galaxy. He could destroy entire fleets with his sheer force powers. I know that he had a crystal that added to his force powers but still that is quite impressive. So much for Revan "pwning" Sidious. That's senseless.



Yeah. I can see Revan "wrecking" Vader and Sidious "easily". Muhar.

The force users Revan fought would get destroyed by Luke in the blink of an eye except Malak - the rest of them is pretty much crap when it comes to force use and lightsaber combat. If you don't believe me go and play KOTOR again. That also counts for Mandalorians (watch their champions vs the Exile in KOTOR II) and all kinds of "sith" except the Sith Lords.

And if you want to base everything on how many people other people killed.
Luke:
- destroyed the death star (more than a 100.000+ dead people)
- several thousands of YV (see above)
- several hundrets of stormtroopers
- dozens of headhunters (ROTJ, SotE)
- Black Sun members (SotE - Darth Maul had problems with them)
- an entire Academy of Dark Jedi
- cloned Sidious
- tons of dark siders, rests of the Imperial army and so on...

"Change gravity a bit" ? Please think about how much force power it would require to change gravity. And do I have to tell you that one of Lukes students could tear down an entire mountain with his force powers ?

And for lightsaber combat: Luke received personal training from Obi-Wans spirit (form III mastery), Yodas spirit (form IV mastery), Anakins spirit (form V mastery) not to say that he pretty likely used his own fighting style (two lightsabers) that was enough to wreck thousands of pretty strong warriors that were trained in melee combat for their entire life (YV) ?

At least I'm getting bored to explain people how Revans battle pre-cog works. Please take a look at the "Yoda vs Revan" thread for that point.

First, why does everyone bring up Anakin in these threads? We don't know if Anakin's father actually is the force. It is never stated, and the prophesy could be a lie. So that gets rid of the whole Luke being X amount of the force. He could be some random guys son for Christ sake and be this powerful.

Sith are different from Vong. I'm not going to argue they're more powerful, but their definately different. Vong do not use the force, they do not use a lightsaber, they do not have as quick of reflexes. Vong, without armour, would get killed by Sith.

Luke uses Form 5 from what I've heard from you, and his two saber thing was Form 10 probably.