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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4672433.stm

9 iraqis enjoy their newfound freedom as they slowly suffocate in nazi-style torture devices. freedom on the march. SEIG HEIL!!!!!!!



----------------------------------------------------------------------
Iraq suspects suffocate in heat
Iraqi security guard prevents photography of building workers' bodies in Baghdad hospital
By nightfall eight of the detainees had died from the heat
Nine building workers have died in Iraq after being arrested on suspicion of insurgent activity and then left in a closed metal container.

Three men survived the ordeal, police sources said, despite being left for 14 hours in the burning Iraqi summer heat.

They had apparently been caught up in a firefight between US troops and Iraqi gunmen, and were detained after taking an injured colleague to hospital.

Police commandos face numerous claims that they abuse and torture detainees.

Meanwhile, gunmen have attacked an Iraqi army checkpoint north of Baghdad, killing at least nine soldiers.

Scorching heat

Police sources told the BBC that at least 12 men had been arrested on Sunday after they had taken a colleague to hospital in Ameriya with gunshot wounds.

A local resident, thinking they were insurgents, called the police, who sent commandos to arrest the men.

Iraqi police commandos
Police commandos are accused of systematic abuse of detainees
At about midday, they were put into a metal container and by nightfall eight prisoners were dead and three were in a critical condition.

The survivors were taken to a central Baghdad hospital where staff said a ninth man died.

The Iraqi capital suffers scorching heat during the summer months, with temperatures often reaching 50 degrees.

A doctor told the BBC that one of the survivors had said he had been given repeated electric shocks by the commandos.

The survivors were kept under police guard as they were treated and were taken away without being allowed to speak to journalists.

Recent UK press reports have alleged police commandos systematically torture and abuse detainees. The security forces themselves are the target of much of Iraq's insurgency violence.

Checkpoint ambush

Gunmen struck early on Monday at Iraqi army checkpoint in Khalis, near Baquba, about 65km (40 miles) north-east of the capital.

The raid began shortly after dawn and lasted more than 30 minutes, with gunmen using assault rifles, mortars and machine guns during the attack.

Shia father weeps over bodies of his children and wife
A Baghdad Shia family lost nine members in a vicious shooting
As reinforcements were sent to the scene a car bomb exploded, causing casualties among both soldiers and civilians. Nine soldiers were killed.

The BBC's Joe Floto in Baghdad says this kind of infantry-style assault by insurgents is uncommon, but it demonstrates their ability to gather in armed units and mount coordinated and relatively well-resourced attacks.

Two US marines were killed on Sunday during security operations in the town of Hit, 150 kilometres (90 miles) west of Baghdad, the US military has announced.

In Baghdad, relatives have buried a mother and eight of her children who were killed in their beds in the Baladiyat area on Sunday.

Neighbours said the victims - Shias, the youngest of whom was two years old - had all been shot in the head. The father, who slept outside the house that night, said he believed the attack had sectarian motives.

Mmmmmm...."Sign me up for some nice Bush exported freedom please as I am sick of having human rights and the will to live..."

Way to promote a way of life to people, George.

Reading this really gives me hope for a new Iraq.........

what nazi-style torturing device are you on about ?

locked in a tight metal box under blistering heat....????

I hope you are not imagining some metal coffin or a 2x1 metal box

dude, are we really going to debate the trivial?
they were cooked

and no, i wasnt referring to the infamous ovens, but you do realise very similar tactics to this were also used in concentration camps

Does it matter what the box was like?

That is just so f*ked up. blowup

Deprived of air and light while being cooked= Bad enough.
Thats as bad as any other form of punishment dished out as standard methods of diposal by the nazis in ww2 IMO.
It has been long know to us in the human race what the effects of this would be.. Therefore this must be taken to be a deliberate act of torturing to death and can not be defended seriously. (Especially by debating how big said cooker was.....)

it kinda does yeah !

Cause if its happened cause of neglegience, its one thing but if it happened out of a visceral cruelty its another.

I imagine it as shipping container.

In the scorching sun in a metal container for sustained periods of time....?

Originally posted by PVS
dude, are we really going to debate the trivial?
they were cooked

and no, i wasnt referring to the infamous ovens, but you do realise very similar tactics to this were also used in concentration camps

It doesn't say. Were the captors Iraqis or US servicemen? I guess I can understand the Iraqis doing something like. It's almost unintentional.

You know, though, freedom isn't free. Sometimes you need to be cooked in a box to appreciate it. /sarcasm.

The story sounded like it was intentional to me.

What kind of container isn't relevant, really.
The situation there just gets keeps going downhill.....

Even if it was neglect... People were cooked.
If it was the U.S troops then inexperience could be (Wrongly) used as an excuse, (What happened to common sense) but Iraquis....?
C'mon... they LIVE there and would definitely know of the effects of said treatment.

cooked = intentionally

forgot = neglegience.

So was this purposely done or was it an accident ; thats what there is to debate and i dont see it 'trivial'.

...and gosh didn't those police sound like nice people...

Cooked= intentionally

Forgot= Neglegence

"Forgot"= Something else leaning toward intent and deliberate.

The article reads like it was done intentionally to me.
There's no way anyone from anywhere wouldn't know
what could happen in that situation.....

I wonder if the officers ate their livers with a side of farva beans. mmmmm

Originally posted by GCG
cooked = intentionally

forgot = neglegience.

So was this purposely done or was it an accident ; thats what there is to debate and i dont see it 'trivial'.

the 'trivial' comment was in regards to your seeming denial that it was a torture methods used in concentration camp. it was. anyway....

were the deaths intentional? i dont know. was the torture intended? c'mon dude.

but is any of this a surprise?

"West turns blind eye as police put Saddam's torturers back to work "
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1683578,00.html

we went to war to get them out of power...then we hire them back.
guess it didnt matter what tactics they used, but who's payroll they were on. remember the state of the union speech leading to war? half of george's speech was comdemning of these very people. "cutting out tounges....etc"


well....they're back.

That's just sad........I think they would of gone insane first....

I did read that the Vietnamese put prisoners in cages in water where the rats ate at them alive.....Also was in the movie "The Deer Hunter."

Now wat just a second. I thought these guys were nice naive citizens warped by the evil that was Saddam Hussein. I am sure these men are reformed by now.

Originally posted by Oswald Kenobi
Now wat just a second. I thought these guys were nice naive citizens warped by the evil that was Saddam Hussein. I am sure these men are reformed by now.

i guess that's what we're supposed to believe.
they took sensativity training

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth

"Forgot"= Something else leaning toward intent and deliberate.

Is that the 'SADAKO the garth's' concise dictionary are you using

---

IRAQI POLICE #1: "Busy Day; We caught 11 suspects ; where shall we put them ? "

Iraqi Police #2: "Uhh.....there is a shipping conatiner way back there ; put them there until we process them "

Then they both go home and due to an improper handover between shifts, the detainees become 'lost' until police officers return the next day and realize what happened.

Isnt that difficult for this scenario to happen, is it ? No its not

I should become a lawyer

Originally posted by GCG
Is that the 'SADAKO the garth's' concise dictionary are you using

---

IRAQI POLICE #1: "Busy Day; We caught 11 suspects ; where shall we put them ? "

Iraqi Police #2: "Uhh.....there is a shipping conatiner way back there ; put them there until we process them "

Then they both go home and due to an improper handover between shifts, the detainees become 'lost' until police officers return the next day and realize what happened.

Isnt that difficult for this scenario to happen, is it ? No its not

I should become a lawyer

yeah, ok

now why dont you put the leather brief case away and tell us what you really believe happened?

Well it was either being cooked alive or being gassed and having your lungs explode by Saddam. Man those guys just cant get a break.

Lats start with what i dont believe; the article says:



and then



So how could they possibly have endured 14 hours of blistering heat if the sun sets at 20.30 hrs ? the most is 7 hours.

Well i would grant the fact that Iron/ steel retains heat , but i would also take the fact that Iraqi climate gets very cold by nightfall especially in barren area.

iraq has been in a heat wave. reported teperatures at above 120F
were they left in a heated box for 14 hours straight? as you point out its a possibly misused adjective. does the irresposability of an editor erase the fact?

dude, THEY WERE COOKED ALIVED

please, please, please tell me you're just f'n with me and you are not actually trying to justify using a metal crate as a holding cell in the desert...please?

Originally posted by PVS
yeah, ok

now why dont you put the leather brief case away and tell us what you really believe happened?

If it's the Iraqis, I can believe that's exactly what may have happened. Think about it. If someone pulled you out of your job to do brain surgery or something, you'd probably kill someone. These guys are normal stupid peasants (not calling you stupid, btw) and they are drafted into the police force. It's a stupid mistake and there may have been some ill intent behind it, but I'm not so sure they meant to kill these guys.

But then again, freedom isn't free, so the prisoners probably didn't pay their freedom tax to get out of the box.

Our "humanitarian" efforts are becoming worse every day. It's clear that these people cannot handle democracy in any way, shape, or form. I can't believe Bush's advisors didn't look into this more.

You seriously think i would not condone the usgae of a shipping container in the Iraqi heat as a detaining place ? Of course i do !

****ING ANIMALS ! (If its DELIBERATE)



The thing is that i want to know more about it, before i comment. Its not easy to see all the aspects. The BBC isnt saying much apart from

11 men/ torture/ metal container/ hours of heat.

I am putting the intentionality token on the thread.

wow, this is what happens when you privatize everything, including the training of police and military to private contractors who specialize in mercanaries. the last time we did this it was with a guy named augusto pinochete

That's ****ing horrible.
It's disgusting what some humans are capable of doing.

first off

can we do anything about the heat in iraq?...no...

can we do anything about how the people are detained....yes....lets leave the door open so they can get a bit of air...and hope they stay inside just on trust...im sure they will

3rd

they are scummy terrorist insurrgent pigs and i hope they burn in a hot metal container under 10 suns for all eternity in hell

If they had Union representation, by God, that would've never happened.

Originally posted by jaden101
first off

can we do anything about the heat in iraq?...no...

can we do anything about how the people are detained....yes....lets leave the door open so they can get a bit of air...and hope they stay inside just on trust...im sure they will

3rd

they are scummy terrorist insurrgent pigs and i hope they burn in a hot metal container under 10 suns for all eternity in hell

Well whats wrong with having the door open and having two guys with a couple of M-16s guarding the 'cell...?' (Other than the fact that due to heat conductiveness of the metal box in extreme heat, that they possibly still cook...)

'Insurgency' is a subjective point of view thing here to some extent..
A lot of these people didn't buy into Bush's declaration that the war was over two years ago.. And we nicked their country and killed alot of innocent people, who the "insurgents" are now avenging, from their POV..

Originally posted by jaden101
first off

can we do anything about the heat in iraq?...no...

can we do anything about how the people are detained....yes....lets leave the door open so they can get a bit of air...and hope they stay inside just on trust...im sure they will

3rd

they are scummy terrorist insurrgent pigs and i hope they burn in a hot metal container under 10 suns for all eternity in hell

FIRST: they are suspected insurgents, not terrorists. you know, they were not proven guilty in a court of law. but i guess you just have a gut feeling which allows you to be judge and jury.

SECOND: in a 'free' society do they not have the right to due process? imagine if you were suspected of doing a crime and then 'mistakenly' killed because it was assumed you were 'scummy' and/or a 'terrorist'?

THIRD: an indoor holding cell or even a frikin hole in the ground is an alternative to a metal crate in the desert sun (a f***ing oven)



its a sad world we live in where people dont care about this shit.
i bet if they were white westerners everyone would give out a cry of horror.
sad

caught red handed firing guns at soldiers...how much more proof is needed?





good idea...but only if we get them to dig the holes themselves

Originally posted by PVS
FIRST: they are suspected insurgents, not terrorists. you know, they were not proven guilty in a court of law. but i guess you just have a gut feeling which allows you to be judge and jury.

We are in war time. War prisoners don't get the same rights as Americans.

Originally posted by Echuu
We are in war time. War prisoners don't get the same rights as Americans.

ever hear of the geneva convention?

torture is illegal. by allowing the torture of enemy soldiers we put our own soldiers at risk of equal or worse torture as retaliation.

Originally posted by jaden101
they are scummy terrorist insurrgent pigs and i hope they burn in a hot metal container under 10 suns for all eternity in hell

Funny that, because they believe that we are scummy oppressive westerners and hope WE burn in hell for all eternity.

You've not got that much of a different mentality.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Funny that, because they believe that we are scummy oppressive westerners and hope WE burn in hell for all eternity.

You've not got that much of a different mentality.

-AC

I agree with you AC, and reading this thread is pretty sad

Originally posted by PVS
ever hear of the geneva convention?

torture is illegal. by allowing the torture of enemy soldiers we put our own soldiers at risk of equal or worse torture as retaliation.

Yes I have heard of the Geneva Convention. I'm not talking about torture. I'm talking about your statement of trials and innocent until proven guilty etc etc. I thinks it's silly for these war criminals to get all these American rights.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Mmmmmm...."Sign me up for some nice Bush exported freedom please as I am sick of having human rights and the will to live..."

Way to promote a way of life to people, George.
'Cause Bush told them to do this.

Originally posted by Echuu
Because we are in war time! Why is that so hard to understand? Things need to be done quickly. Look at trials here in America and how people wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait.

Do you really want all that waiting when you got a bunch of people running around with bombs strapped to themselves trying to kill you in the name of Allah?

And now wait a minute. You are saying "are we not spreading freedom?" Then why do you have a problem Bush and with us being over there?

1-they were not strapping bombs to themselves, lets not generalise

2-wartime has rules, torture is against the rules. sure, we can opt to say 'f*** the rules' but the enemy has the option to do the same and then some, GET IT?

3-i have a problem with bush sending our troops there based on a lie.
i have a problem that he then covered up that lie as 'faulty intelligence' and changed the objective to 'spreading freedom and ending an oppressive torturous regime'...but then hauling off tens of thousands to prisons for years without being charged of a crime, allowing torture of prisoners....doing the same things that the old regime has done. we accomplished nothing and 1700+ american soldiers had to die for this. damn f***ing right i have a problem with this.

Are there still people who believe US is in Iraq to liberate them?

Originally posted by PVS
1-they were not strapping bombs to themselves, lets not generalise

2-wartime has rules, torture is against the rules. sure, we can opt to say 'f*** the rules' but the enemy has the option to do the same and then some, GET IT?

3-i have a problem with bush sending our troops there based on a lie.
i have a problem that he then covered up that lie as 'faulty intelligence' and changed the objective to 'spreading freedom and ending an oppressive torturous regime'...but then hauling off tens of thousands to prisons for years without being charged of a crime, allowing torture of prisoners....doing the same things that the old regime has done. we accomplished nothing and 1700+ american soldiers had to die for this. damn f***ing right i have a problem with this.

1. I'm not talking about these particular insurgents. I'm saying in general that is a favorable tactic.

2. The problem is that the enemy we are fighting has NO regard for rules. And in fact in war rules are absent most of the time. As I said though, I'm not talking about torture. I'm talking about the rights you said these people should have like trial by jury etc.

3. What do you think of World War Two? 290,000 some troops died which was a large sacrifice but look at the results.
CUE***BUSH LIED BUSH LIED***
Regardless I still think this battleground is a necessary part in restoring peace in the world; lie or not.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Are there still people who believe US is in Iraq to liberate them?

Are there still people who think everything the U.S. does is crap?

I mean really, it's like almost every thread in KMC that has to do with Iraq is anti-Bush lie lie lie.

Originally posted by Echuu
Are there still people who think everything the U.S. does is crap?

I mean really, it's like almost every thread in KMC that has to do with Iraq is anti-Bush lie lie lie.

Everything Bush does IS crap, but this war is an oil hunt. It is so naive to think that USA is trying to liberate (???)


You want to liberate people? Why isnt USA attacking and bombing the shit out of Saudi Arabia?

Originally posted by Echuu
Are there still people who think everything the U.S. does is crap?

I mean really, it's like almost every thread in KMC that has to do with Iraq is anti-Bush lie lie lie.

Basically everything the U.S. have done in this war has been crap. People still die, people still get tortured...It was basically the exact same with Saddam Hussein in charge.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Everything Bush does IS crap, but this war is an oil hunt. It is so naive to think that USA is trying to liberate (???)


You want to liberate people? Why isnt USA attacking and bombing the shit out of Saudi Arabia?

So people have said.

This is ironic...If it were an oil hunt we WOULD be attacking and bombing the ---- out of Saudi Arabia seeing as they have more oil than Iraq.

Originally posted by JimMorrison227
Basically everything the U.S. have done in this war has been crap. People still die, people still get tortured...It was basically the exact same with Saddam Hussein in charge.

a blatent truth somehow overlooked by bush worshippers. i swear, bush can knock on their front doors and say "your mother must die" and they would throw her out the door and yell "take the b!tch!!!"

Originally posted by PVS
a blatent truth somehow overlooked by bush worshippers. i swear, bush can knock on their front doors and say "your mother must die" and they would throw her out the door and yell "take the b!tch!!!"

Ya if Bush were to accuse their mother of being a terrorist, they would probably be the one to kill her.

Originally posted by PVS
a blatent truth somehow overlooked by bush worshippers. i swear, bush can knock on their front doors and say "your mother must die" and they would throw her out the door and yell "take the b!tch!!!"

I would have to agree with you on that. But as for being a worshipper I am not.
I am a little more wary of Bush but I have yet to be convinced that Iraq is crap.

what will it take to convince you?
or should i say, what do you think was accomplished?

you think we live in a safer world now? tell that to the british.
think iraqi people are free? refer to this article, articles on the mistreatment of illegaly held prisoners at guantanimo bay. think there was a 'smoking gun' that could come to america 'in the form of a mushroom cloud'? think our troops are fighting for freedom? who's freedom? not ours, not iraq's...so who's? why are we there?
can you tell me that?

the only way people wil be convinced of how useless and counterproductive this war was is when we are attacked again.
then the uselessness and needless waste of lives will be fully realised....but then again....naaaaaa. it will just be blamed on "dem damn liberals" because their questioning of bush's policy was somehow to blame.

its amazing how conservatives seem to remain clean no matter what the case. if we are not attacked it will be because bush and company kept us safe. if we are attacked, its because the liberals interfered with 'progress' by questioning.

the conservative leader is the rooster who is worshipped for causing the sun to rise, while the liberal is the goat who is beaten to death for causing the drought.

Originally posted by Echuu
I would have to agree with you on that. But as for being a worshipper I am not.
I am a little more wary of Bush but I have yet to be convinced that Iraq is crap.

Nothing good has happend for Iraq, since they we're invaded. Everything is the same, people die, people get tortured. But what is different with the invasion, it is not only Iraq people that are dying, it is also Americans.

Originally posted by Echuu
So people have said.

This is ironic...If it were an oil hunt we WOULD be attacking and bombing the ---- out of Saudi Arabia seeing as they have more oil than Iraq.

Whos talking about oil? Im talking about violation of human rights and opression of women as well as people by Saudi Royals. Wheres America?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Whos talking about oil? Im talking about violation of human rights and opression of women as well as people by Saudi Royals. Wheres America?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/PVS/BUSH_1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/PVS/BUSH_2.jpg

sucks for them....

If Iraq is supposedly being "liberated", why are Iraqis being killed and tortured in the same numbers as when Saddam was in power? They're the enemy yes, but they're ****ing human beings, why torture them? Why? If they shoot at you, you shoot at them, it's that simple, why torture them slowly and painfully? There is no justification for it.

Originally posted by alcoholicpoet
If Iraq is supposedly being "liberated", why are Iraqis being killed and tortured in the same numbers as when Saddam was in power? They're the enemy yes, but they're ****ing human beings, why torture them? Why? If they shoot at you, you shoot at them, it's that simple, why torture them slowly and painfully? There is no justification for it.

Apparently thats a normal part of bringing freedom these days.

Originally posted by FeceMan
'Cause Bush told them to do this.

Do you mean the title of "Commander-in-chief" means nothing and that he has no responsibility ultimately for the conduct of his forces?

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Do you mean the title of "Commander-in-chief" means nothing and that he has no responsibility ultimately for the conduct of his forces? \

that question shall be conveniently dodged.
amazing...i would like these conservatives to tell me one thing.
what IS the commader in chief's responsability? to read speeches
off a teleprompter and nothing more? apparently so, since all other
responsability has been lifted off his shoulders

Wow, I'm glad I'm not an Iraqi....poor bastards....

It is sick how some people act as if these Iraqi's deserved to be basically cooked alive in the desert, it is messed up.

Originally posted by JimMorrison227
It is sick how some people act as if these Iraqi's deserved to be basically cooked alive in the desert, it is messed up.

Werd. They may be the enemis in this war, but atleast they don't burn american troops in metal boxes.

IMO, if you want to kill an enemy shoot him, quick painless death, and the closest thing to humane one could do in war.

well, i'm sure it wasnt that bad. Rug heads are used to the heat.

Originally posted by alcoholicpoet
Werd. They may be the enemis in this war, but atleast they don't burn american troops in metal boxes.

The iraqies didnt burn americans? Did you forget about those pictures that were going around a few months back with the iraqies beating and burning the bodies of men in iraq?

Originally posted by KidRock
The iraqies didnt burn americans? Did you forget about those pictures that were going around a few months back with the iraqies beating and burning the bodies of men in iraq?

Appareantly not, nonetheless, you wouldn't want to be duplicating the enemy by doing the same?

Originally posted by alcoholicpoet
Appareantly not, nonetheless, you wouldn't want to be duplicating the enemy by doing the same?

No, but dont act like the Iraqis are clean in this war by saying "well at least they didnt do this.."

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
well, i'm sure it wasnt that bad. Rug heads are used to the heat. So wrong but funny

Originally posted by alcoholicpoet
Appareantly not, nonetheless, you wouldn't want to be duplicating the enemy by doing the same?

All is fair in love and war. Unless your country is a sensitive 12 year old girl.

Originally posted by Echuu
Are there still people who think everything the U.S. does is crap?

Yes.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
well, i'm sure it wasnt that bad. Rug heads are used to the heat.

racist ass

and i love how people bring up the classic
*child's voice* THEY DID IT FIRST!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by PVS
what will it take to convince you?
or should i say, what do you think was accomplished?

you think we live in a safer world now? tell that to the british.
think iraqi people are free? refer to this article, articles on the mistreatment of illegaly held prisoners at guantanimo bay. think there was a 'smoking gun' that could come to america 'in the form of a mushroom cloud'? think our troops are fighting for freedom? who's freedom? not ours, not iraq's...so who's? why are we there?
can you tell me that?

the only way people wil be convinced of how useless and counterproductive this war was is when we are attacked again.
then the uselessness and needless waste of lives will be fully realised....but then again....naaaaaa. it will just be blamed on "dem damn liberals" because their questioning of bush's policy was somehow to blame.

its amazing how conservatives seem to remain clean no matter what the case. if we are not attacked it will be because bush and company kept us safe. if we are attacked, its because the liberals interfered with 'progress' by questioning.

the conservative leader is the rooster who is worshipped for causing the sun to rise, while the liberal is the goat who is beaten to death for causing the drought.

It will be safer. It takes a while for things to take root. Look at World War Two. Look at how long we were in Germany and Japan and look at the results.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Do you mean the title of "Commander-in-chief" means nothing and that he has no responsibility ultimately for the conduct of his forces?

So, it was confirmed that American soldiers did this?

no no no it was iraqi police

Originally posted by Echuu
It will be safer. It takes a while for things to take root. Look at World War Two. Look at how long we were in Germany and Japan and look at the results.

True, except to compare the Iraq war to WWII is completely absurd.

Originally posted by PVS
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/PVS/BUSH_1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/PVS/BUSH_2.jpg
Yeah, you've already shown us those pics before.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Do you mean the title of "Commander-in-chief" means nothing and that he has no responsibility ultimately for the conduct of his forces?
Originally posted by PVS
\

that question shall be conveniently dodged.
amazing...i would like these conservatives to tell me one thing.
what IS the commader in chief's responsability? to read speeches
off a teleprompter and nothing more? apparently so, since all other
responsability has been lifted off his shoulders
PVS, I would like to think that you would have seen my postings enough to give me just a little credit.

Sure, Bush should take responsibility for the conduct of our forces, as he is our country's representative. But should you blame him? I am highly skeptical that Bush told people that the Iraqis should be tortured.
Originally posted by PVS
racist ass

and i love how people bring up the classic
*child's voice* THEY DID IT FIRST!!!!!!!!!
Actually, I believe our beloved ragesRemorse was referring to the climate in which the Iraqis lived, not that they had tortured U.S. troops in that manner.

I also believe that if the Iraqis repayed their torturers in kind, you would use the argument you condemned to justify them.
Originally posted by alcoholicpoet
If Iraq is supposedly being "liberated", why are Iraqis being killed and tortured in the same numbers as when Saddam was in power? They're the enemy yes, but they're ****ing human beings, why torture them? Why? If they shoot at you, you shoot at them, it's that simple, why torture them slowly and painfully? There is no justification for it.
1. "Killed and tortured in the same numbers as when Saddam was in power?" Erm...any factual basis for this? Because I'm going to wager that Saddams decades in power involved more killing and torture than anything that has happened with U.S. involvement. I could be wrong, of course; I'm not trying to slam you.

2. Why torture them? Three things--it brings about a sense of justice to the torturers, it gives them power, and if one person starts doing it, psychology says that most everyone else will join in. Especially if the person who began and/or permitted the torture is a ranking officer.
Originally posted by PVS
the conservative leader is the rooster who is worshipped for causing the sun to rise, while the liberal is the goat who is beaten to death for causing the drought.
How odd. The general attitude on these boards would say otherwise...

People still care what PVS says? Wow that is a shocker.

Originally posted by FeceMan
How odd. The general attitude on these boards would say otherwise...

ahh yes, in the kmc general discussion forum, you are correct.
in the real world that is capital hill, not quite

Originally posted by PVS
ahh yes, in the kmc general discussion forum, you are correct.
in the real world that is capital hill, not quite
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the liberals will blame everything on Bush while the conservatives will blame everything on the liberals.

Originally posted by KidRock
No, but dont act like the Iraqis are clean in this war by saying "well at least they didnt do this.."

I'm not trying to justify Iraq, what I'm asking now is why are American troops bringing themselves to the enemies level by torturing them in a horrific fashion similar to that of the insergents actions?

Originally posted by FeceMan
1. "Killed and tortured in the same numbers as when Saddam was in power?" Erm...any factual basis for this? Because I'm going to wager that Saddams decades in power involved more killing and torture than anything that has happened with U.S. involvement. I could be wrong, of course; I'm not trying to slam you.

2. Why torture them? Three things--it brings about a sense of justice to the torturers, it gives them power, and if one person starts doing it, psychology says that most everyone else will join in. Especially if the person who began and/or permitted the torture is a ranking officer.

So the continued and expansive torture of Iraqis, and the satisfaction of the torturer is a reason to torture? You're confusing me on that one.

Originally posted by FeceMan
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the liberals will blame everything on Bush while the conservatives will blame everything on the liberals.

and wtf does it matter what liberals think today? who's making the policy? there's a time to be PC and there is a time to call a spade a spade. we can play this game and in the end we can realise we are equal and have a big hug.

only thing is, 1700+ american soldiers are dead, in a war rooted on lies from the administration and now based on the hypocrisy of that same administration. we are not safer, we are in more danger now than ever. maybe because i live about 10 miles from nyc i tend to be more nervous about this issue, but i fail to see how we're safer. all the blind rhetoric of "things have to get worse before they get better" and other anal leakages will not change that.

meh, im done ranting for today. i just wish people would learn to turn around and realise there's a scumbag president reaming them from the backside.

Originally posted by PVS
ever hear of the geneva convention?

torture is illegal. by allowing the torture of enemy soldiers we put our own soldiers at risk of equal or worse torture as retaliation.

the geneva convention applies to prisoners of war...given that most terrorists fight without identifying insignia and are not allied to any country or state then they are not legally classed as soldiers and so are not covered by the laws of the geneva convention

is this bad?...do i care?

in a situation of war that kind of cease to exist, and after war is over people who havent experienced the horror of war is gonna sit and decoede who is a war criminal or not. Of course some of the incident that happen in the balkan conflict needs to be sorte out yet war is war and you do anything to win it

Originally posted by jaden101
the geneva convention applies to prisoners of war...given that most terrorists fight without identifying insignia and are not allied to any country or state then they are not legally classed as soldiers and so are not covered by the laws of the geneva convention

is this bad?...do i care?

you should care. for all we know those dead men could have been insurgents not terrorists.

I know of an insurgent who rallied for his country to get the invading rulers out. he lived about 700 years ago not too far away from you . They also did a film on this insurgent.

Should you care ? i dont know ; but doesnt this look like history is repeating itself time and again ?

So its OK to kill the rebels who want to have a free country when Scotland has a monument in the name of William Wallace who fought for the freedom of all.

Is this a bad comaparism ?

Insurgents going on killing just randomly all around?

PVS the Geneva connvention is a waste of time,it is a tool for politicians to say they tried to make a difference it means NOTHING you are more niave than i belivied if you think the Geneva convention is anything more.

Originally posted by GCG
you should care. for all we know those dead men could have been insurgents not terrorists.

I know of an insurgent who rallied for his country to get the invading rulers out. he lived about 700 years ago not too far away from you . They also did a film on this insurgent.

Should you care ? i dont know ; but doesnt this look like history is repeating itself time and again ?

So its OK to kill the rebels who want to have a free country when Scotland has a monument in the name of William Wallace who fought for the freedom of all.

Is this a bad comaparism ?

not a bad comparrison, but i would have gone with general george washington

Originally posted by GCG
you should care. for all we know those dead men could have been insurgents not terrorists.

I know of an insurgent who rallied for his country to get the invading rulers out. he lived about 700 years ago not too far away from you . They also did a film on this insurgent.

Should you care ? i dont know ; but doesnt this look like history is repeating itself time and again ?

So its OK to kill the rebels who want to have a free country when Scotland has a monument in the name of William Wallace who fought for the freedom of all.

Is this a bad comaparism ?

the English felt it was ok to kill rebel scots,However the Scots and Mel Gibson didnt.

Originally posted by GCG
you should care. for all we know those dead men could have been insurgents not terrorists.

I know of an insurgent who rallied for his country to get the invading rulers out. he lived about 700 years ago not too far away from you . They also did a film on this insurgent.

Should you care ? i dont know ; but doesnt this look like history is repeating itself time and again ?

So its OK to kill the rebels who want to have a free country when Scotland has a monument in the name of William Wallace who fought for the freedom of all.

Is this a bad comaparism ?

did this "insurrgent" go around killing children in market places?...did he hang 10 year olds for talking to English soldiers?...





presumption i presume?... the iraqi's aren't fighting for freedom...quite the opposite actually...most of the insurrgents are ex bathist regime members and their followers...since when have they ever been pro freedom...the only reason they fight against the americans is because they want to impose their minority dictatorship back onto the iraqi people

jaden, we are hiring bhathist interrogators back into the iraqi police force (see my article on a previous page). these scumbags are on both sides. nobody is clean.

Originally posted by PVS
jaden, we are hiring bhathist interrogators back into the iraqi police force (see my article on a previous page). these scumbags are on both sides. nobody is clean.

If it gets our people out sooner then its better

it wont though.

lets use some common sense here

who did the iraqi people fear when saddam was in power?

did they fear saddam? or did they fear the men who would PERSONALLY
torture them to death? yeah, common sense. now those very people are being hired right back to the police force.

do you think iraqis will be happy about this? here in america and over in europe we have the luxury of being able to tuck our heads neatly into our asses and ignore all these factors which lead to destabilisation (as if there ever was stability). we can just ignore those articles in an attempt to simplify our appraisal. this way it can all make sense and we can say "case closed".

only thing is, we dont have to worry about being dragged out of our homes, brought to prison, and tortured to death. they do and they know this.

Originally posted by PVS
it wont though.

lets use some common sense here

who did the iraqi people fear when saddam was in power?

did they fear saddam? or did they fear the men who would PERSONALLY
torture them to death? yeah, common sense. now those very people are being hired right back to the police force.

do you think iraqis will be happy about this? here in america and over in europe we have the luxury of being able to tuck our heads neatly into our asses and ignore all these factors which lead to destabilisation (as if there ever was stability). we can just ignore those articles in an attempt to simplify our appraisal. this way it can all make sense and we can say "case closed".

only thing is, we dont have to worry about being dragged out of our homes, brought to prison, and tortured to death. they do and they know this.
well look on the brightside the world is a more dangerous place allowing our PM (who is a great guy) to pass yet more anti-terror laws!

Originally posted by jaden101
did this "insurrgent" go around killing children in market places?...did he hang 10 year olds for talking to English soldiers?...


I dont know ; did he ?

Meet me half way here ; are you talking about that terrorist attack in Iraq that kiled 1 soldier and a group of kids in the street. ?

If so that was the work of a terrorist not an insurgent. A Terrorist chooses civilian targets and individuals deprived of defense; an insurgent opts for military targets. I beg to differ on this cause Bush had said that there would never be negotians with terrorists.

Recently, there have been talks in Iraq between US officials and Tribe leaders to quell the insurgency and find a peacful means to put an end to all this blood. Blood being spilt cause they cannot walk the streets freely. They cannot sleep cause foreign military comes banging on their doors in the middle of the night. Arrests by foriegn military in the middle of the night.

What the news doesnt tell you is that a few tribes are sheltering terrorists, while other tribes want these terrorists as well as US and UK forces OUT

These Insurgents are fighting on two fronts.

Putting terrorits and insurgents on the same side would mean that Bush is contradicting himself.

Originally posted by GCG
I dont know ; did he ?

Meet me half way here ; are you talking about that terrorist attack in Iraq that kiled 1 soldier and a group of kids in the street. ?

If so that was the work of a terrorist not an insurgent. A Terrorist chooses civilian targets and individuals deprived of defense; an insurgent opts for military targets. I beg to differ on this cause Bush had said that there would never be negotians with terrorists.

Recently, there have been talks in Iraq between US officials and Tribe leaders to quell the insurgency and find a peacful means to put an end to all this blood. Blood being spilt cause they cannot walk the streets freely. They cannot sleep cause foreign military comes banging on their doors in the middle of the night. Arrests by foriegn military in the middle of the night.

What the news doesnt tell you is that a few tribes are sheltering terrorists, while other tribes want these terrorists as well as US and UK forces OUT

Putting terrorits and insurgents on the same side would mean that Bush is contradicting himself.

im talking about what a personal friend of mine witnessed with his own eyes when he was in Basra...a young boy approached him to say hello...he gave the boy some water...they finished their patrol and when they came back down the same street the boy was hanging from by his neck from a street light...executed by these so called "insurrgents"


the fact remains that as it stands...if all foreign forces were to leave...the people who have the military power to get control of iraq are still the former regime and their supporters...we need to either try to get them to engage in the political system in iraq...kill them ourselves....or train enough iraqi police and soldiers to stop the dictatorship from returning its minority rule

we seem to be trying to do all three...

How does your friend in Basra know it was an insurgent ?

Dont get me wrong its easy for me to comment like this from the comfort of my seat but it could have been some psycho/iraqi without having to do with the Insurgency.

But yeah , ive got to agree with those 3 things, and training them seems to be the hardest thing to do.

They need to be trained, but knowing how long its going to take them to learn , then foriegn forces are going to take more time in Iraq, so the Insurgency will continue.

Kill them yourselves would mean starting a new sheet but Unfortunatly, its not an option the rest of the world is willing to accept.

So going ahead with the new political system in Iraq would be the best way forward, but due to the Oil reserves under each sector of Iraqi desert, the tribal clashes will increase.

so you think it was just a normal everyday murder of a child...in a busy street....mmmm

not to mention that it happened very early in the war...before the outside terrorists had amassed in iraq

No ; what im saying is that you cannot stigmatise these detainees on the basis of an individual act that happened in 2003.

Well I haven't been here for a while, but I see the old blame game is alive and well. I always wondered about one thing-for all the atrocities that Amnesty International and all these other agencies highlight, have they EVER, ONCE, said anything about Al Qaeda beheading Nick Berg or the Taliban slicing Daniel Pearl's throat, along with all those lovely videos they send of the events (where you could hear Nick berg screaming as his head was slowly sawed off with a commando knife?)

I guess that's OK right? And you guys are worried about 6 Al Qaeda in a ****in' box? Shit, at least the detainess at Gitmo still have THEIR heads on their shoulders (and 3 meals a day as well as access to that book they use to legitimize their murder sprees.) But somehow someone will throw "Christianity" up and say it's no better,in an effort to detract from the truth about these cold blooded killers and the responsibility they have to ultimately take for their actions (which others seem to globally defend in some ambiguous way.)

Originally posted by GCG
So going ahead with the new political system in Iraq would be the best way forward, but due to the Oil reserves under each sector of Iraqi desert, the tribal clashes will increase.

Very good point. I'm suprised noone thought of this earlier. This will also be a breeding ground for economically induced conflicts no matter what happens. The possibility is there. Noone's willing to share (or would they?) This aspect of the new govt. should get very interesting.

This ambiguity has set safety within societies in the western world.

Whats so ambiguous with implementing the democratic system that most western countries have adopted ?

Should it change ?

Originally posted by GCG
This ambiguity has set safety within societies in the western world.

Whats so ambiguous with implementing the democratic system that most western countries have adopted ?

Should it change ?

Well, w\regard to ambiguity, I speak of the way people take a dual edge to this situation, and mostly of the way that I have heard people speak with a double edged blade about 9-11 and the way Al Qaeda is killing people in Iraq. I hear stuff like "well, it DOES suck, BUT...you asked for it" or "9-11 was bad BUT...it's a nice downpayment on all the innocents you help to kill in Palestine every day."

What I mean, is that sometimes people say one thing and mean another. By no means is this new in the world, it's just that w\regared to 9-11 and Iraq, I wish people would in some parts of Europe and the world abroad would just stop BS'ing and tell us to our faces, how much they hate America and want us to die because of their own seemingly latent desire to see America get it up the ass.

Hope that helps to clear it up a bit.

BTW-I'm not saying anyone HERE hates America as a total package w\o regard for distinction between people and politicians. I'm just saying I HAVE encountered it before. Just wanted to let you know that. peace

Originally posted by GCG
No ; what im saying is that you cannot stigmatise these detainees on the basis of an individual act that happened in 2003.

why not...people seem a helluva quick to do it the other way round....a couple of idiots in the US and UK armies abuse prisoners and suddenly everyone in the army are evil torturing bastards apparently

and some sick idiots of Iraqi nationality blows people up and suddenly every Iraqy is a ruthless terrorist

Originally posted by jaden101
why not...people seem a helluva quick to do it the other way round....a couple of idiots in the US and UK armies abuse prisoners and suddenly everyone in the army are evil torturing bastards apparently

so once again you fall under the mentallity that if they commit an evil, we have the right to commit that evil. well, maybe that would be the case, but then we lose the moral high ground....you know...the one and only remaining justification for our occupation....to spread freedom and end such acts of evil

so you suggest we should come around full circle in our hypocrisy and adopt the very same policy which we claimed (after all lies exposed) was the reason we invaded in the first place. why dont we just start gassing the lot of them? "SADDAM!!!!! YOU CANT BRUTALISE YOUR PEOPLE LIKE THAT!!!!! now step aside and we'll show you how its done you bleedheart pussy" yeah dude, that makes alot of sense.

Originally posted by PVS
so once again you fall under the mentallity that if they commit an evil, we have the right to commit that evil. well, maybe that would be the case, but then we lose the moral high ground....you know...the one and only remaining justification for our occupation....to spread freedom and end such acts of evil

so you suggest we should come around full circle in our hypocrisy and adopt the very same policy which we claimed (after all lies exposed) was the reason we invaded in the first place. why dont we just start gassing the lot of them? "SADDAM!!!!! YOU CANT BRUTALISE YOUR PEOPLE LIKE THAT!!!!! now step aside and we'll show you how its done you bleedheart pussy" yeah dude, that makes alot of sense.

i wasn't justifying anything at all and have in fact condemed the actions of the troops at abu ghraib several times..

once again to read what you want to read and try and twist peoples words...you should really give up on that cause you don't do it very well

what i was commenting on seeing as you obviously missed the point again is the media's constant condeming of the allied soldiers as being brutal and heavy handed yet at the same time saying that any killings commited by iraqi's are isolated and don't represent anyone but themselves

so once again PVS...stop making things up and grow up

forgive me if i cant decipher your constant backpedaling and double talk.

Originally posted by jaden101
why not...people seem a helluva quick to do it the other way round....a couple of idiots in the US and UK armies abuse prisoners and suddenly everyone in the army are evil torturing bastards apparently

.....and thats not true.

Nothing is perfect

People who think that its right to condemn a whole nation on the basis of some individuals' profits and selfishness are not in a rational mind frame.

Originally posted by jaden101
why not...people seem a helluva quick to do it the other way round....a couple of idiots in the US and UK armies abuse prisoners and suddenly everyone in the army are evil torturing bastards apparently

Yeah really. I get sick of hearing this shit too, Jaden101.

At least the Guantanamo detainees and most of the guys at Abu Gharaib STILL have their heads on their shoulders....if we were THEIR prisoners I'm sure we'd be killed and the videos would be sent home to our parents to add to the trauma..so much for playing 'fair.' But that's ok, it's still (and never was) enough to make people see, so we're still ****ed no matter what we do...ya just gotta' love it.

Originally posted by PVS
forgive me if i cant decipher your constant backpedaling and double talk.

forgive me if i dont think you actually have an opinion of your own but merely try and reword what others say in some misguided attempt at making people look like evil racists

Originally posted by GCG
.....and thats not true.

Nothing is perfect

People who think that its right to condemn a whole nation on the basis of some individuals' profits and selfishness are not in a rational mind frame.

but in fact it is true because the overall, Bush hating media will do anything to put down the efforts of the allied troops by both NOT reporting any of the good things they contiually do but also focus on the acts of stupidity by a tiny fraction of allied troops and then try and put the spin on a "culture of abuse" etc etc

Originally posted by PVS
forgive me if i cant decipher your constant backpedaling and double talk.
And yet I'll bet you still voted Kerry.

Originally posted by jaden101
but in fact it is true because the overall, Bush hating media will do anything to put down the efforts of the allied troops by both NOT reporting any of the good things they contiually do but also focus on the acts of stupidity by a tiny fraction of allied troops and then try and put the spin on a "culture of abuse" etc etc

It happens but its not reflecting the truth. the whole picture must be seen.

For Eg.

1) If a party of police officers are caught beating the shit out of a black guy, then all the police are racists.

2) If I go to Walmart, and the cashier tries to scam me, then all Walmart employees are scammers.

Its bad reasoning since the malice on one individual does not necessarily mean the whole group is malicious.

thats the point i was trying to make in a rather ironic way with my "helluva quick" statement earlier

apparently you get it and PVS doesn't

i'm not looking for anyone to paint a rosy picture...i just think that its a bit self defeating to demean, denounce and in most cases completely ignore all the good things that allied troops are trying to do under more pressure than you or i can comprehend





and your getting this information from where?

given that resistance is isolated to very few towns and cities in iraq and given that i have spoken to many soldiers who returned from 6 months + duty in iraq and never had so much as a single person shouting at them to get out of iraq because they aren't wanted

of course...the media doesn't show this..because it doesn't help there overwhelming anti Bush propaganda

resistance is people with guns shooting at soldiers
NOT people who's opinion is that they are no more safe then
before the invasion. but im sure you know that and disregarded
it to feel right in your statement.

and btw, never was it implied in any reputable news source that all
our soldiers are thugs. do they have to attach a disclaimer at the end of every article?**

**all soldiers are not thugs, the actions mentioned in this article are of *number of soldiers mentioned* and not of the entire armed forces.

would that make you happy? or is any reporting of the truth to be looked at as anti-bush propaganda? should the media insert bias fluff articles to make you happy? i really dont understand how reporting the facts is bias.

Originally posted by jaden101
given that resistance is isolated to very few towns and cities in iraq and given that i have spoken to many soldiers who returned from 6 months + duty in iraq and never had so much as a single person shouting at them to get out of iraq because they aren't wanted

of course...the media doesn't show this..because it doesn't help there overwhelming anti Bush propaganda

No and it dosen't help Michael Moore either, so hence the suppression of "the Awful Truth" that this just MIGHT work out. Might because we all know nothing is written in stone.

However, as far as Jaden101's statements about the U.S. soldiers he mentions above, I'm going to support them 100% because I have 2 cousins in the U.S. Marines who both came back from their year TOD in Iraq. One was there from the opening shot of the war and came out in late 2004 when the roadside bombs started.

The second one came home a few months ago and was involved in the Fallujah offensive where he said we 'totally ****ed them up' big time. And never once have I heard them say that the Iraqis said anything harsh to them.

In fact both of them said many of the people were very friendly and some who were more fluent in English spoke with several of them many times in the roadside cafes and other places. But no that wouldn't interest anyone who was against this thing now would it?

thats just not true...i cant even begin to count how many times i heard the term "culture of abuse" when refering to US and UK troops in the mainstream media

to me that sounds pretty much like condeming all soldiers




so why does the media choose its facts in such a one sided manner...they are hardly clambering over each other to tell the masses about the many inmates and guantanamo bay who are learning to read and write while in custody and the many who have been released with the ability to go and support their families because of what they learned while imprisoned

by the way...here is a little link for all the anti bush people on this site who spout about how the allies have supposedly killed hundreds of thousands of iraqis since the war began

the figures are compiled from charity sources, red cross, iraqi hospitals, media reports etc

they show that the best estimate for the current death toll is 25881 maximum

not to mention that most of those have been killed by insurrgent attacks

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

Originally posted by jaden101
thats just not true...i cant even begin to count how many times i heard the term "culture of abuse" when refering to US and UK troops in the mainstream media

to me that sounds pretty much like condeming all soldiers

never. and i mean NEVER in the u.s. media has such a bias bullshit lie tag been placed on any issue like that. if thats the way it is over in the u.k., then sorry to hear that. over here, its facts. sure they are often presented with convenient timing, and there may be bias in that timing, but never is there opinion stated as headline like that. if there is, its the type of media people laugh off and dont take seriously.

unless you are referring to editorial comments, in which both sides are guilty. you know, when journalists from the right tell the left that they support terrorism. same bullshit. but you blindly generalise in that statement so grossly it actually made me flinch.



Originally posted by jaden101

so why does the media choose its facts in such a one sided manner...they are hardly clambering over each other to tell the masses about the many inmates and guantanamo bay who are learning to read and write while in custody and the many who have been released with the ability to go and support their families because of what they learned while imprisoned

they are being held for 3+ years without being charged for a crime. that basically makes the prison a concentration camp. i dont care if they are being stuffed with the finest cuisines, sipping the most expensive champagne, and receiving daily blowjobs from supermodels. the fact stands that they are illegally imprisoned. they were basically kidnapped, stolen away from their families, and locked away overseas. unless you are so frikin blind and deluded to believe they are all terrorists, how the hell can you be ok with this? THAT is being supportive of evil. yes, i said it. deal with it because its true, and i think you really need to reevaluate your opinion on this.

Originally posted by jaden101
by the way...here is a little link for all the anti bush people on this site who spout about how the allies have supposedly killed hundreds of thousands of iraqis since the war began

the figures are compiled from charity sources, red cross, iraqi hospitals, media reports etc

they show that the best estimate for the current death toll is 25881 maximum

not to mention that most of those have been killed by insurrgent attacks

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

of coarse they fail to mention the death toll from the fallout. starvation, disease, etc resulting from bombing. no water and no sewage system = death.
get those figures and then we'll talk. (btw after 'desert storm' the death toll from such was around 100,000...hardly trivial i would say)

but its not...unless thats what you consider the BBC to be...



agreed







does anyone remember the FACT that over 10,000 kuwaitis were...and i quote " illegally imprisoned. they were basically kidnapped, stolen away from their families, and locked away overseas." for 10 years and then executed...

not to mention the fact that many (and by that i dont mean all so dont try your favourite tactic of twisting my words) were caught with guns in hand, fighting allied troops

as for the fact that no charges have been brought...alot of that has to do with internal legal wrangles over certain issues to do with the military commissions that were supposed to try the prisoners... i think the issue was resolved quite recently...saw a bit on the news about it anyway

so in part you can blame the fact that the US does adhere to the rule of law and human rights to the fact that many of the prisoners are still being held...because if there wasn't such a prolonged fuss about the legality then many of them would have already been tried....and those who were innocent would have been released...nice going human rights protesters...you kept innocent people in jail longer than needed



that would be the same water and sewage systems that the allied troops keep trying to fix and the "insurrgents" keep trying to sabotage?

and here is another little figure...since the last gulf war...500,000 shi'ite and kurdish iraqi's were executed by saddams troops...

or how about the 10's of thousands of iraqis that starved while kofi annan's son skimmed of millions from the oil for food programme...money that was supposed to allieviate hunger during the UN imposed sanctions

or how about the fact tha between the last gulf was and the current one...saddam built over 40 presidential palaces...one of which was about 20 times the size of buckingham palace...replete with gold taps and floors...all using money from the oil for food programme

That sounds like a nice human thing to do.JM

Originally posted by Jackie Malfoy
That sounds like a nice human thing to do.JM

does anything you type have any meaning? why not just go: skldghlskjghlsjkhfglwkhrghpq2gv,vnljksnfujpwgjp, because that is just about as comprehendable as what you post here.

Originally posted by Jackie Malfoy
That sounds like a nice human thing to do.JM

wallbash

That contribution made no sense at all

Originally posted by GCG
wallbash

That contribution made no sense at all
You guys...I think she was being sarcastic.

That means she has higher brain functions.

OH, MY GOD! TERRY SCHIAVO HAS BEEN COMMUNICATING WITH US FOR YEARS AND WE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IT!

no, i already stated the truth.
JM is a psych student working on her final dissertation for her p.h.d.
the study is on internet psychology. its all a front.

Originally posted by FeceMan
You guys...I think she was being sarcastic.

That means she has higher brain functions.

OH, MY GOD! TERRY SCHIAVO HAS BEEN COMMUNICATING WITH US FOR YEARS AND WE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IT!

Dude most of her contributions are pear-shaped !

Originally posted by jaden101

that would be the same water and sewage systems that the allied troops keep trying to fix and the "insurrgents" keep trying to sabotage?

and here is another little figure...since the last gulf war...500,000 shi'ite and kurdish iraqi's were executed by saddams troops...

or how about the 10's of thousands of iraqis that starved while kofi annan's son skimmed of millions from the oil for food programme...money that was supposed to allieviate hunger during the UN imposed sanctions

or how about the fact that between the last gulf war and the current one...saddam built over 40 presidential palaces...one of which was about 20 times the size of buckingham palace...replete with gold taps and floors...all using money from the oil for food programme

Well traditionaly the UN has stood by and said nothing in response to ethnic massacres because of their Utopian stance that sees peace to the exclusion of all things. Most notably Cambodia and Rwanda.

They bent the rules of UN res 1441 to exclude American chemical weapons inspectors in what were to be unconditional (or is that UNconditional) palace inspections and then covered for Saddam for 14-72 hours when Iraq closed their palaces to move their stuff around,and washing Saddam's hands to make it lok legit. All this in return for a few ****in' barrels of oil...the last thing seen moving out of Iraq before the second war srated was a convoy headed for Syria. THERE'S your chemical weapons (or at least a sure bet that there was something they were trying to dispose of in a hurry.)