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I'm trying to figure out her place in the order of things.

You do realise this will prolly lead to GS giving us another dissertation on the power of Phoenix don't you ? Phoenix is beyond uberfied SW, although SW is very powerful now.

Indeed, I realize GS will have a go, kinda like whenever someone mentions Champion, I'll be there to say how hard he owns.

I like GS, I was hoping GS or some others would put ye olde SW in perspective.

I mean, didn't SW effect phoenix here? Forced her to go w/psylock to the white room, I think.

Is Thanos > SW? Galactus> SW?

Potentially spoiler stuff so...
Actually I think Jamie Braddock pulled his sister and Rachel into the White Hot Room? He's powerful but not that powerful in the grand scheme of things is he? He could be immune due to his own reality warping powers... complicated

SW didn't affect the White Hot Room so she can't really do anything to the Phoenix if I understand correctly. But Roma does say that if Wanda keeps doing what she's doing "left unchecked all creation will merge into a single formless amorphous conceptual blob" and that "concepts of order and chaos will simply cease", though dunno if she meant the abstracts, and "it will be the end of rational existence as we know it"

So Phoenix>SW is the only definite thing I know about her place in the MU.

I see......I just don't.....buy it.

She's a mutant, how is this possible? It makes no sense to me, I mean really, why didn't Reed just use his Mutant power nullifier on her?

Either something really complicated is happening(Mephisto's reality shards from Wandas "kids" or just rushed writing.

"Rushed writing", LP? Are you implying that Marvel was scared of the Crisis coming?

Yup, exactly my thoughts.

The Crisis had Marvel shitting thier pants, and I would too if I were them.

I'm not anti-DC, as a lot of people think, I like DC, my man Slade is there! Not to mention Lobo.

Scarlet Witch isn't able to affect reality on this level on her own. She's a reality warper. But her power combines with Magneto in a way that extends beyond what Magneto described as "causality" into the realm of both causality (her specialty) and the physical world (his specialty), to transcend reality warping into genuine reality manipulation. Their power, according to Roma, isn't just affecting the universe (like the IG or the HOTU), it's affecting the omniverse. So while it may not exceed the X-universe's definition of Phoenix, it may well exceed the IG or even HOTU.

Originally posted by demigawd
Scarlet Witch isn't able to affect reality on this level on her own. She's a reality warper. But her power combines with Magneto in a way that extends beyond what Magneto described as "causality" into the realm of both causality (her specialty) and the physical world (his specialty), to transcend reality warping into genuine reality manipulation. Their power, according to Roma, isn't just affecting the universe (like the IG or the HOTU), it's affecting the omniverse. So while it may not exceed the X-universe's definition of Phoenix, it may well exceed the IG or even HOTU.

indeed dear child

Originally posted by demigawd
Scarlet Witch isn't able to affect reality on this level on her own. She's a reality warper. But her power combines with Magneto in a way that extends beyond what Magneto described as "causality" into the realm of both causality (her specialty) and the physical world (his specialty), to transcend reality warping into genuine reality manipulation. Their power, according to Roma, isn't just affecting the universe (like the IG or the HOTU), it's affecting the omniverse. So while it may not exceed the X-universe's definition of Phoenix, it may well exceed the IG or even HOTU.

I'm almost certain Wanda isn't doing this all by herself either but... I'm still more inclined to believe uberfied Wanda's powers are the main cause of HoM, and that it's her using/boosting Magneto's (and Xavier's) power and not vice versa Magneto causing this type of physical distortion of the omniverse?

She is not the piddly hex bolt hurling SW that she used to be, she can remake/rewrite reality, ie space and time subconsciously. She remade her children and Vision until Xavier snapped her out of it. The Sorceror Supreme's magic and the most skilled (because he isn't the most powerful anymore) telepathic mind on Earth couldn't hold her.

I'm curious... all the references to Magneto having control over the physical world to the extent of being able to create wormholes, are they both from Excalibur v2 #8 i.e. the wormhole to Wanda and the wormhole back. I don't recall him having that magnitude of power over the physical world before. But I'm guessing I'm the only one who suspects that Wanda was boosting his power and this display was more an indication of SW's impending power upgrade than Magneto suddenly manifesting an ability to create wormholes that he hasn't displayed before.

Only time will tell I guess...

(If he has displayed this ability multiple times at some other point then I retract my musings... for now )

Were you referring to Xavier when you said that he isn't the most powerful telepath anymore? If so, who is? Just curious.

lol yeh I think he's been supplanted. I dunno do you think he's still the most powerful?

I do, yes. Honestly, to me at least, X-men wouldn't be X-men if that weren't true.

There are mutant psionics more powerful than him due to having tk as well such as cable and rachel however he is still the most powerful telepath to my knowledge. Cable still has a lot of learning to do in terms of telepathy. It was only a few years back that Jean was teaching him about psionic warfare. I could be wrong but its still stated in comics in recent times.

Well yea, I don't mind there being more powerful all-around psionics, because he doesn't do telekinesis. But I still stand by what I say that he is the most poweful telepath there is.

Quentin Quire...

I must say this 'House of M' crap is the best thing I've seen in a LOOOOOONG ass time from Marvel.

What I'm wondering is how Wanda got so powerful? I know about her Hex power, then later on her Chaos power, but the only Earthborn character we know of who can do something like this is Franklin Richards. I hope this is explained in full, and I hope that there is another hand in play here rather than just Magneto. Since all of reality is affected, maybe we'll be treated to some old faces and events again...Apocalypse, Thanos, the coming of Galactus...I hope they have the time to squeeze them in.

As for speculating on Wanda vs. Phoenix, it's waaaaaaaaay too early to tell.

wasn't the guy who gave wanda her hex powers mephisto? does anyone think he has something to do with this? because wanda was original;ly supposed to be like her father(energy manipulating mutant), but mephisto tampered w/ her powers.

Wanda's Hex power is her mutation.

I won't dismiss you rudely, cause bringing Mephisto into this actually sounds interesting...cause he's one of the most intriguing characters in the MU.

Where did you get this information?

Well, we found out later on that she doesn't even have hex or chaos magic powers, because they don't exist. She's been using something different all along. A mutant power than can't be explained, or possibly not a mutant power at all.

I do think it has something to do with Mephisto, I hope to see him in the series sometime soon.

i have read everytime on a scarlet witch bio that wanda has hex-powers because of mephisto. she was originally supposed to have energy manipulating powers, but not anymore due to mephisto

Well Mephisto has had some involvement in Wanda's life, apparently her children were created from shards of Mephisto's soul. And when they were gone, those shards remained.

Mephisto had a huge grudge against Hawkeye (i think it was the 2000 thunderbolts annual) and the Vision because of Wanda..

And look who's been killed lately.

and he also gave her the Powers she has, she would be like magneto if he hadn't intervened

Wow that really sounds interesting...I can't wait for the next HoM. Perhaps 'M' is not meant to be Magneto afterall...but Mephisto! I swear this is the most exciting crossover in ages.

i thought it was mephisto too, but i read the M was for magnus

Wanda was unconscious and Magneto was actually using her power for himself in the last issues of Excalibur. Wanda's reality warping allowed her to alter elements in the existing world -and that seemed to be the limits of what she could do, even in the final Avenger's story. In close proximity to Magneto, he, she or they were able to actually change the entire structure of the multiverse. That goes beyond basic reality warping...it's changing the nature of "is" itself. It was postulated that it was only something that could be done by the marriage of Magneto's and Wanda's powers. Neither could do it on their own.

That's right, bitches! Magneto + Wanda = Infinity Gauntlet!

I wouldn't go that far.....if LT has to step in, then it's I.G level.

Originally posted by demigawd
Wanda was unconscious and Magneto was actually using her power for himself in the last issues of Excalibur. Wanda's reality warping allowed her to alter elements in the existing world -and that seemed to be the limits of what she could do, even in the final Avenger's story. In close proximity to Magneto, he, she or they were able to actually change the entire structure of the multiverse. That goes beyond basic reality warping...it's changing the nature of "is" itself. It was postulated that it was only something that could be done by the marriage of Magneto's and Wanda's powers. Neither could do it on their own.

That's right, bitches! Magneto + Wanda = Infinity Gauntlet!

(I'm going to play Devil's Advocate about Mags role in all this. )

Speculative. Postulated by whom?
How close a proximity?

I'm still thinking Wanda's (ill-defined) abilities to affect reality i.e. space and time against the laws of nature are the key, even in absence of Magneto's. But that's my personal opinion and Marvel may prove me wrong.

New York is nowhere near proximal to Genosha... how did their powers interract to create the wormhole in that instance. Do they need to be in the same room? Wanda recreated her children quite easily without him there.

I'm not doubting Magneto is powerful but I don't believe him to have limitless power. He controls electromagnetic force... potentially weak force and strong force as well, as theories of how these are inter-related have been discerned. He shouldn't control gravitational force. Even if unified field theory is completely proven in MU he would still have to have rudimentary knowledge of how they are related in order to use his primary ability of manipulating electromagnetic force to produce and control the gravitation in order to produce a completely controlled Einstein-Rosen bridge. He could use his power of magnetism to the same effect but that would require a magnetic field of at least 10 to the power of 18 tesla.

(Physics isn't my forte so correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.)

I could speculate too. Wanda's subconscious has ramifications on reality e.g. reanimation of Agatha Harkness. Wanda unconscious may as well. Imo Wanda's power allowed him to do things like creating wormholes that under normal circumstances should be beyond his abilities.
Personally I doubt this is purely Wanda's doing... but then doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't. Imo Magneto and Xavier who is being forgotten in all this... also have a role... but imo they are not the lead.

LT usually has his own reasons for choosing to do things. He didn't get involved in the IG, either, remember, until after it was over. But HoM is affecting the entire multiverse, beyond even what the HOTU did. It's just directly specifically at changing earth, probably because Magneto doesn't have any ambitions beyond Earth. So my guess is that abstracts aren't getting involved because Magneto/Wanda don't have Thanos/Doom-like ambitions of killing half the universe or supplanting them or whatever else.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
(I'm going to play Devil's Advocate about Mags role in all this. )

Speculative. Postulated by whom?
How close a proximity?


Postulated by Magneto himself in Excalibur v3. He wondered aloud if there was a link between his control of the physical world and her control of "causality" and if her power could be harnessed. A couple of issues later and Magneto is already making some...adjustments to reality (while Wanda was still unconscious). We don't know how close a proximity, or even if it matters.



Wanda's ability to create "hexes" was actually a form of reality warping. It was taken to its extreme when she went crazy, but in the end it was still just "warping", similar to Jaime Braddock or Proteus. She could alter space and time and the laws of nature. But creating HoM went beyond that...it didn't warp reality, it BECAME reality. To almost perfect completeness. That's something that didn't take place until Magneto began harnessing her power.



The wormhole had nothing to do with Wanda herself. The foreshadowing by Charles and further explanation by Beast stated that Magneto was always able to do such things, he just held himself back because subconsciously, he was in conflict about what was right and what was wrong. When he KNOWS, in all his heart, that something is the right thing to do, then his full abilities come to the fore. Saving his daughter was such a thing.

Wanda re-creating her children is an example of reality-warping, which she was able to do on her own. HoM goes beyond reality warping. It's much more on the level of Franklin Richards. Wanda beforehand had reality control more in line with Proteus or Jaime Braddock or Mikhail Rasputin.



The fact that he's able to magnetically create a wormhole and manipulate electrons attests to the extent of the energy at his disposal. That would certainly include gravitational force. Even Polaris is able to create anti-gravity fields, and she's a lot less powerful.



I think having some unseen person being the real power behind this is silly and takes away from the main thrust of the story...a father trying to make amends for what he's done wrong. I can accept Magneto hijacking her power to make a utopia for him and his children. I can accept Xavier being responsible by trying to give Magneto and his family the peace and dream they never achieved. And I can accept it being completely Wanda's doing, despite Magneto actually using her power to make changes by himself. But I'd take severe issue with someone like, say, Mephisto coming out of nowhere and being the mastermind behind this whole thing.

When did Strange and Magneto fight, and it ended in a stalemate?

Originally posted by demigawd
But I'd take severe issue with someone like, say, Mephisto coming out of nowhere and being the mastermind behind this whole thing.

Ditto.

Strange how Jamie Braddock seems immune to the changes of HoM and how he can traverse in and out of the White Hot Room though.

Someone else said it, and for now I'm in agreement that it's Xavier to know everyone's greatest desires, Magneto for his control over the physical world. Wanda for her grasp on reality (literally not figuratively as we all know she's a bit nuts)... but there is an unknown fourth I think if you look at HoM #3

BTW Neutron star = magnetic flux density of 10 to the 8 Tesla... creation of small wormhole = 10,000,000,000 x stronger field. I'm still sceptical about Magneto having this kind of power... but if Beast says so

Just wait for 2 months after both their present storylines have run their course and ask the question again

The answer after the retrocon of these stupid ideas will probably be "Ah who cares Captain America can punche them both out"

So anyone else looking forward to infinite Crisis?Ive loved the Insiders storyline building it up and i cant wait too see a really great storyline unfold

Originally posted by demigawd
LT usually has his own reasons for choosing to do things. He didn't get involved in the IG, either, remember, until after it was over. But HoM is affecting the entire multiverse, beyond even what the HOTU did. It's just directly specifically at changing earth, probably because Magneto doesn't have any ambitions beyond Earth. So my guess is that abstracts aren't getting involved because Magneto/Wanda don't have Thanos/Doom-like ambitions of killing half the universe or supplanting them or whatever else. You said the HofM is affecting the multiverse...how? I've only picked up Issue #1, and FF HofM #1, but how is the multiverse being affected?

roma is being kinda affected

Originally posted by EvilCap America
Just wait for 2 months after both their present storylines have run their course and ask the question again

The answer after the retrocon of these stupid ideas will probably be "Ah who cares Captain America can punche them both out"

So anyone else looking forward to infinite Crisis?Ive loved the Insiders storyline building it up and i cant wait too see a really great storyline unfold


When someones talking about or getting excited about anything marvel related why must you always come in and ay DC fanboy sh*t like that? I read Teen titans, Outsiders and plan on getting Infinite crisis yet i prefer Marvel. Howver you dont see me or anyone else around here continually spouting rubbish about the opposite company. If you prefer DC then fine thats your entitlement but stop constantly putting marvel down, especially on threads featuring Marvel characters. Noone wants to hear it.

Originally posted by demigawd
Wanda was unconscious and Magneto was actually using her power for himself in the last issues of Excalibur. Wanda's reality warping allowed her to alter elements in the existing world -and that seemed to be the limits of what she could do, even in the final Avenger's story. In close proximity to Magneto, he, she or they were able to actually change the entire structure of the multiverse. That goes beyond basic reality warping...it's changing the nature of "is" itself. It was postulated that it was only something that could be done by the marriage of Magneto's and Wanda's powers. Neither could do it on their own.

That's right, bitches! Magneto + Wanda = Infinity Gauntlet!
ya IG

Originally posted by long pig
When did Strange and Magneto fight, and it ended in a stalemate?

They kinda fought in an early issue of Defenders (15? 16?), and fought again, but I read their second fight in a Magneto one-shot reprint that had a few of Magneto's "greatest hits".

Originally posted by Lord S
You said the HofM is affecting the multiverse...how? I've only picked up Issue #1, and FF HofM #1, but how is the multiverse being affected?

It was stated in Uncanny X-men HoM. Roma mentioned it and there were multiple versions of multiple characters all being smashed together.

Yeah, I got those two issues, Strange and Magneto never actually fight each other in #15, it's mostly about mutant Alpha.

In #16 Magneto is magically turned into an infant at the end of the two books.
Not much of a stalemate.

btw, whatever happend to Mutant Alpha?

If HoM is almost effecting a Celestial, then it's pretty high up on the power scale, but I.G is a bit too high.

Magneto was turned into a baby by Alpha, his own creation. It wasn't magical. Magneto attacked trapped the Defenders in his magnetic field that none of them could break until Xavier did some Deus ex Machina thing that channeled all their mental energy to one point and snapped the restraints while Magneto was away. But their second fight was more complete.

If the level of power is determined by its scale, then I'd say affecting a multiverse > affecting a universe. We don't know specifically how the HoM reality changing is or can affect abstracts, but we know that it's breached universal barriers in a way that Thanos was unable to reach with the HoTU. That shows a more far reaching power to me, though I acknowledge that different measurements can yield different opinions.

Mutant Alpha I believe ended up hooking up with The Stranger or something.

But they never faught each other at all, Strange faught the brotherhood, k.oing Mastermind with one blast.

I was thinking Alpha turned into god hood after realizing Magneto was lying to him and beating Mag's up. He was awesome tho.

I liked how, everytime he used his powers, he would evolve, at first he was like a big monkey, then he turned into humanoid then into alienish then into something godly. Awesome.

Mastermind has Strange at his mercy, all kinds of confused. Xavier had to mentally slap Strange to tell him that Mastermind's illusions are just illusions.

But before they even fought the Brotherhood, Magneto trapped them in magnetic force and left to finish Mutant Alpha. They couldn't get out and Xavier (who was definitely MVP of those two issues) figured out a way to break out. Hulk's strength was ineffective against Magneto's forcefield and Strange's magic didn't help, either.

Uh, no.
Strange was attacking the illusions, he figured out they were illusions, then he used his own illusions(Strange created 5 dupes of himself, mastermind couldn't tell the difference) to fight mastermind, then easily K.O'd him with one hit.

They weren't in a forcefield, they were in a cave, they dug out.

You do realize this was in 74', way way way before Strange got most of his relics and power-ups, this was even before the 5000 year war.

I don't even think he was Sorcerer Supreme yet.

Strange was attacking the illusions and wondering why none of his spells were working. It was Xavier who told him to look past them. Even after Xavier told him, Strange said, "But how can I know for sure?". Eventually, he trusted Xavier and took out Mastermind, but you were making it out to be some walk in the park for Strange. It wasn't.

They were in a forcefield. Magneto put them there. How do you think they got in the cave in the first place? That was when Xavier used that whole hokey, "Focus your mental energies through me and we can disrupt the magnetic waves Magneto is using to hold us here". You're telling me you don't remember that? I'm not making it up, lol.

I acknowledge he wasn't Sorcere Supreme yet. Magneto was a little old man at the time. Nobody really reached the heights they're at today.

It's been a looooonggggggggggggg time since I read it, don't get me wrong, not calling you a liar, just that's how I remember it, I could be wrong on a few things.

Not a walk in the park, Strange was exhausted, but he did make illusions of himself and k.o mastermind with one bolt, I remember that much.

Do you remember the part where Magneto used Alpha and stranded the defenders in the cave, and they dug out?
I really don't remember a force field at all. But again, this was 12-13 years ago since I read it.

How old are you longpig?

23, my pop had tons of dr.strange comics I used to read when I was around 10 or so.
So, you can't be too mad at me for forgetting plot lines from when I was 10.

Actually taking out Mastermind isn't that impressive...he's just a human.

I actually have 15 and 16 as part of a trade paperback. I just now dug it out. The line up is Nighthawk, Hulk, Strange and Valkyre. Xavier comes to them for help in beating Magneto and the Brotherhood. They go to help. Mastermind creates orange monsters and Val, Hulk, Nighthawk and Strange are attacking it and nothing is working. Xavier tells Strange to calm down, it's an illusion. Strange doesn't believe Xavier and keeps attacking. Even though it's technically an illusion, they're all acting like they're getting beaten up (don't know why). Xavier, who gave up trying to convince them, uses his power to disperse the illusion. They continue when suddenly they're all hit out of nowhere by Magneto, who knocks them all out.

They wake up a bit later, trapped in a magnetic field Magneto erected around them. Magneto explains some long plan to build Alpha, he does a bunch of "last time in my life" exposition to explain what he's been up to recently, then leaves and goes about his business.

Cue the Deus Ex Machina from Xavier, and they're able to combine their mental energies through Xavier who telepathically shuts down the field (????). Magneto senses what happened and send his Brotherhood to take them out. Hulk vs. Blob, Strange vs. Mastermind for round 2, Xavier and Nighthawk vs. Loreli. Strange STILL falls for Mastermind's tricks, and starts getting fatigued because nothing he's doing is working and he's too paranoid that one monster might be real. He's using something called the "Flames of Faltine" to dispurse the illusions, but more keep coming. So eventually he makes illusions of himself, which confuses Mastermind, and then Strange blasts him. Everybody else wins their fights. By then, Magneto has finished Alpha. That's #15.

#16 is where they get owned by Alpha. Magneto buried the Defenders under rubble and used Alpha to teleport himself and the brotherhood out. The Defenders dug out eventually. They track down Alpha and Magneto to the UN, where Magneto tells Alpha to destroy them. That's when Alpha refuses and blah blah blah, you know the rest.

Sorry I don't have a scanner, but I assure you that's how it went. I hold it in my hands!

Sorry I don't have a scanner, but I assure you that's how it went. I hold it in my hands!

I hope youre talking about the comic there?!

I believe you, I just don't remember the force field, though I do remember Xavier saying something to Strange like "Don't try to break through, that's not the way to do it.", he was probably refering to the field.

I also liked how Blob got cocky telling Hulk how he can't be moved, then Hulk breaks the ground underneath him and punches him in the gut, taking him out of the fight.

I never liked the Blob.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Sorry I don't have a scanner, but I assure you that's how it went. I hold it in my hands!

I hope youre talking about the comic there?!

I dunno, he might not be.....he really seems to like that issue...

Young dirty bastards!

Originally posted by demigawd
Wanda was unconscious and Magneto was actually using her power for himself in the last issues of Excalibur. Wanda's reality warping allowed her to alter elements in the existing world -and that seemed to be the limits of what she could do, even in the final Avenger's story. In close proximity to Magneto, he, she or they were able to actually change the entire structure of the multiverse. That goes beyond basic reality warping...it's changing the nature of "is" itself. It was postulated that it was only something that could be done by the marriage of Magneto's and Wanda's powers. Neither could do it on their own.

That's right, bitches! Magneto + Wanda = Infinity Gauntlet!

Hardly the IG.

And Wanda's more signficant of the two. Odin, Tyrant, Surfer, Galactus, cosmic cube wielder, and anyone who can manipulate Magneto's powers can do the same using Wanda.