Grey Jedi:True masters of the force

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Darth Calladus
In life you may have noticed that seldom are things truly 'black and white' -- life is much more complex than this simple formula. The shades of grey between the two extremes are many and varied. It can be difficult at times to distinguish between what is 'light' and what is 'dark.'




1) THE LIGHT and THE DARK

In life you may have noticed that seldom are things truly 'black and white' -- life is much more complex than this simple formula. The shades of grey between the two extremes are many and varied. It can be difficult at times to distinguish between what is 'light' and what is 'dark.'

For the purposes of fiction, however, we simplify a great deal. Lucas has (as usual) painted a picture of the Jedi and the Sith with fairly large brushstrokes, but there are some telling points he makes.

LIGHT = serving the forces of Good

Good is still a relative term, however, especially in the Star Wars storyarc. When we begin (at Episode 1) we see the Light as serving forces of Order, and the Dark as serving the forces of Chaos. By the time we get to Episode 4, however, the roles have reversed. The forces of Order are now represented by the Sith-- Lord Vader and Emperor Palpatine. So how do we define Light, if we don't define it as serving the forces of Order?

Put simply, the opposites of Dark and Light are best represented in SW by those who display the highest degrees of Greed and Compassion, respectively. Greed motivates the Sith-- selfishness, self-aggrandizement, taking without thought of giving back, using people unfairly, all to achieve a private goal and dominance. Others are seen in a rather sociopathic way, as either a useful tool toward achieving the ends, or as the 'enemy.' Compassion motivates the Jedi-- helping without thought of reward, and keeping the peace even if it means sacrificing one's own life.

Now the fact of the matter is, the Force itself does not take sides. That's right, the Force doesn't care about Light and Dark, greed and compassion. It does not attribute good or bad to anything... it is simply the Force, and there is grave danger in attributing any anthropomorphic quality to it. Even saying that one 'serves the greater good' can lead to supporting the Emperor's plan. After all, the Sith serve the greater good in their own way, establishing Order at the behest of the Emperor, running a really 'tight ship' in terms of government, industry, technology and the like. Ordinary people might look at this and say, 'yes, this is Good. the world is a better place with a tight government that doesn't tolerate law-breaking.' Just as the Republic of old did, so too the Empire (in Episodes 4 through 6) served the masses. So chaos and order are not distinctly 'good' or 'bad'.

If the Force 'cares' about anything at all, it 'cares' about balance. Thus the struggle for power by both sides all throughout history, a struggle we see in the world around us, and in our own lives every day.

If this seems like a strangely cold and objective way of looking at the Force, well, it is. In Lucas' universe, there is no monotheistic deity who presides over the struggle. There is only the Force-- an otherwise-unnamed and faceless 'energy' if you will, moving through the galaxy and holding it all together. I liken it to the tao, and there is an old saying, "The tao that can be named is not the true tao."

LIGHT= Compassion, selflessness DARK= Greed, selfishness

A simple equation. There are other pairs of opposites you can insert and not lose the validity of the equation itself. But what about the Grey?

Traditionally, a Jedi in the old Republic serves the Council, and the Jedi Order at large. They follow a strict Code, some of which we are familiar with through the novelizations of the SW movies.

A Sith serves himself, or his Master (eg, Darth Sidious). He generally has no thought of serving the larger whole nor does he think about the 'other' as someone to put before himself. Even his service to a Master is strictly selfish, a desire to increase his own knowledge and power, at whoever's expense it becomes necessary to do so.

2) THE GREY

A GREY JEDI however, primarily serves the Force.

A Grey Jedi is more interested in balance, just like the Force.

A Grey Jedi does not eschew using 'Dark' powers to achieve the greater good. In fact, a Grey Jedi might not even see things in terms of Light or Dark, though it's hard to imagine having that mindset in the midst of the Jedi Temple. (Difficult, but not impossible.)

To a Grey Jedi, the Republic, and the Jedi Council, are secondary to serving the Force.

When it comes down to either doing the bidding of the Force, or doing the bidding of the Council, there is no question-- "I shall do what I must" to serve the Force, even if it means going against what the Council wishes, even if it means using the Dark Side, even if it means going to extremes that would otherwise be considered inappropriate for a Jedi.

Being Grey is, perhaps, a reversion to a previous state of things. According to the sources we have, the Jedi were once an order of philosophical monks. Thus they initially devoted their lives entirely to the study of the Force, heeding the Force before anything else. Whereas the Jedi of late Republic times had become mired in politics. Naturally, that created an atmosphere where serving the Force was of secondary importance to the duties of keeping the peace and meting out justice-- serving the Republic.

In Real Life, we see much the same phenomenon in most schools of organized spirituality. Things become heirarchical and the spirit of the original philosophy ossifies through distinterest and even, sometimes, disuse. Ultimately, no matter how long one has spent under its care and protection, if one is to truly investigate and listen to the calling of the Force one begins to flirt with disobedience to the Mother Sect (whatever it happens to be).

It's not the same thing as turning one's back on the teaching (as with the Sith) nor blind obedience to its interpretations (as with the Jedi). The Grey find themselves instead questioning the right of other beings to dictate the will of the Force for them.

One might even call the Grey a Reformist movement.




ok when i read this i seriously changed my outlook on the entire aspect of jedi vs sith. i think honestly the grey jedi are the true masters of the force. i dont belive there were ever many of them though. but i jus want some thoughts and opinoins.

Darth Calladus
and plz excuse me if there were was a thread before this one. i did not know

Ushgarak
Oh geez, not more Grey Jedi gobbledigook. The whole 'Grey' thing has been made up by clueless fans who have entirely missed the point of what GL has been trying to say.

The Light Side of the Force is GOOD. The Dark side is EVIL. There is nothing that can be at fault with the Light Side because it is the very representation of what good IS. Furthermore, Star Wars has an entirely Black and White morality- GL deliberately designed it that way. And Balance is served by the Good. That again is GL's word.

Using the Dark Side makes you evil. Full stop. No argument.

Incidentally, the Jedi serve the Republic because it is the right thing to do. And they are NOT mired in politics.

Adolescent hogwash. all of it. Any fan into 'Grey' stuff loses my respect immediately.

Darth_Rankkor
Dark all the way. The dark side is the the right side :P vote for DARTH RANKKOR or be grilled LOLOLOLOL

Darth_Janus
Ush is 100% right here. GL, who read upwards of 50 books on philosophy and religion prior to making the movies, describes balance as being served when evil is vanquished. He does not budge on this. A similar morality was shown by Socrates, who argued that morality was as simple as black and white, even though others tried to put a grey spin on it.

I also think Grey Jedi are just plain stupid. But then, I hate the Vong as well, since they are not a dark side enemy. ANd since Star Wars is about the conflict between good and evil via the Force, the Vong should not even be present. Funny thing is, if the Emperor had still controlled the centralized Empire, he may have been better able to repel the Vong.

Darth Calladus
i dont think its stupid. it answers the question of having both light and dark powers. meaning is there a between. besides if you didnt know its in kotor 2 so i guess ur calling them clueless fans without any repecet.

all i wanted was an opinion i dont think you need to downcast the thread.
if so dont even reply jus read it and go on about ur business.

Darth_Janus
How does the order of Grey Jedi achieve True mastery of the Force by stradling both sides while mastering neither?

Darth Calladus
the grey jedi are still part of the jedi order. but im saying the sith use powers of dark and dark only while the jedi use light powers and light powers only. there wuldnt really need to be a need to master them both if you have a good amount of knowlege and power in both. meaning the grey are all-around vs just one belief or side.

so let me put it this way well rounded fighter vs powerhouse fighter
rounded fighter vs speedy fighter

Darth_Janus
Alright, I can see where you're going with this. But you are overlooking the fact that Yoda has extensive knowledge of both sides of the Force, and Dooku, though a bit weak in the Sith lore, was a Jedi master of repute. So one does not have to be Grey and to follow that ideal in order to be balanced.

Illustrious
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Oh geez, not more Grey Jedi gobbledigook. The whole 'Grey' thing has been made up by clueless fans who have entirely missed the point of what GL has been trying to say.

The Light Side of the Force is GOOD. The Dark side is EVIL. There is nothing that can be at fault with the Light Side because it is the very representation of what good IS. Furthermore, Star Wars has an entirely Black and White morality- GL deliberately designed it that way. And Balance is served by the Good. That again is GL's word.

Absolutely, I could not have said this better myself.

The ideal of "balance" is simply when the evil side, the dark, no longer exists, and poetic justice and harmony is restored. In this respect, GL never uses the "shades of gray" mentality, but absolutely represents everything as a sign of "black and white". When an individual posseses fear, that can lead to anger, which can lead to hate, which can lead to black. So by virtue of discourse, fear, or anger, or something thereof, is a black, or EVIL dark side emotion.

It's a very simple concept. The "gray" hardly exists.

Darth Calladus
sith and jedi are just titles that break the galaxy up into light and dark.
now dont get me wrong i like the whole jedi sith thing, but its not jus an ideal. wha they belived in was serving the force. and polotics truly had no voice or and concern whatsoeve in their affairs. all they cared was serveing the force. the sith care about power and the jedi care about keeping the peace. but in order to do that they must serve the central power, the republic. so ushagark is wrong about the jedi not being mired in polotics because they are. if they werent mired in polotics they wuldnt really give damn about the republic or the senate. the grey jedi think that all that is second to serving the force.

let me make it plain and simple. if the jedi werent mired polotics and truly cared about brining balance they wuld not have fought in the clone wars because that was a power struggle between the seperatist and the republic. a war that wuld most likey not change the very balance of the force.

Darth_Janus
True, but the Jedi cannot afford to be impartial like the Grey Order because they serve and protect the Republic, as they have for generations. Thus, they cannot serve the Force and only the Force. And it is because of this that SIdious undermined and destroyed them.

Darth Calladus
no thats not what balance is......im sorry but thats not the true meaning of balance. balance is equality on both sides. and in lucas galaxy there never was balance because there was always evil. even after the death of the empire there was stil evil beacuse of the imperial remnant and then there was dark jedi running around. so if what ur saying is that balance is defined by destryoing all evil.....when will this balance ever be achieved?

Darth_Janus
Not by destruction. Vanquished means defeated, not destroyed. Evil must be smitten down because EVIL seeks to upset the balance that GOOD preserves. It is straightforward.

Darth Calladus
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
True, but the Jedi cannot afford to be impartial like the Grey Order because they serve and protect the Republic, as they have for generations. Thus, they cannot serve the Force and only the Force. And it is because of this that SIdious undermined and destroyed them. which brings me to another point sidious thought that he culd destroy the jedi through polotics and he suceeded...very well i might add. serving the republic was their downfall, getting themselves into a war got them killed. Dooku left the order because he felt that they weakend themselves but serving a weak instuions such as the republic. well that seems like a good enough reason to leave to me. which is why the jedi arent capable of brining balance by trying to keep the peace in the galaxy because there will never be peace. there will always be some faction or cult that will always bring some kind of chaos to the galaxy.
ok let me put it this way, the jedi are capable, its really all a matter of getting ur true priorities together.

Darth Calladus
yes that is how evil is defined. the sith cared about destroying the jedi. they had their priorties together. the jedi on the other hand are to busy trying to fix evrything. they were too caught up in things that were irrerelevant to the force (the republic).thats why they culdnt sense sidious evn when they were same room. it had got to a point where the dark side had become so strong that the jedi culdnt even sense the dark lord of the sith when he was standing right in front of them.

Darth Calladus
im not saying there is no dark or light, but i am saying there is a median

Darth_Janus
What would that be? Apathy?

Darth_Janus
As Kreia says, apathy is death.

Darth_Glentract
apathy is death

Darth_Glentract
thanks, edit it while i'm posting. take away my chance to look smart. Jk

Darth Calladus
lol....well im jus asking that you dont be so narrow minded.


Palpatine: Anakin, if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the Force.

Illustrious
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Not by destruction. Vanquished means defeated, not destroyed. Evil must be smitten down because EVIL seeks to upset the balance that GOOD preserves. It is straightforward.

A very honest assessment.

Balance does not mean purging away of everything that can be the root of evil, as that is impossible. Balance means doing away with the entity that directly brings about evil, which was done when Vader sacrifices himself and destroys the Emperor, bringing down the Empire with him.

Captain REX
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Oh geez, not more Grey Jedi gobbledigook. The whole 'Grey' thing has been made up by clueless fans who have entirely missed the point of what GL has been trying to say.

The Light Side of the Force is GOOD. The Dark side is EVIL. There is nothing that can be at fault with the Light Side because it is the very representation of what good IS. Furthermore, Star Wars has an entirely Black and White morality- GL deliberately designed it that way. And Balance is served by the Good. That again is GL's word.

Using the Dark Side makes you evil. Full stop. No argument.

Incidentally, the Jedi serve the Republic because it is the right thing to do. And they are NOT mired in politics.

Adolescent hogwash. all of it. Any fan into 'Grey' stuff loses my respect immediately.

I say the same.

Darth Calladus
i say anyone that anyone who agress with him either refuses to grasp the concept of a median or is just flat out narrow-minded

Darth Calladus
this balance that you guys have defined as the "vanquishing" of all evil will never be achieved. evil has always been around and it will always contiue to be around. where there is light there is shadow. and then there is the median.

and for those of you who dont belive me about the grey(which is prety much evrybody) heres a perfect example Qui Gon Jinn.


Qui-Gon Jinn: Greed can be a very powerful ally.

Obi-Wan: Don't defy the council, Master, not again.
Qui-Gon Jinn: I will do what I must, Obi-Wan.

Qui-Gon Jinn: Finding him was the will of the force, I have no doubt of that

Illustrious
And btw, why are they Grey Jedi? Not Grey Sith?

Grey Jeth?

Don't be silly. Qui-Gon was a maverick, but that does not mean he uses the dark side of the force, or channels 'evil'. The force is in black and white, there is no "moderate" side force powers.

Tulak Hord
Well, sure there are. Such powers as Push, and Pull, and Saber Throw are universal powers, allowed to be used by either side. And Qui-Gon was the lightest lightsider there ever was.

Darth Calladus
like i said before those are just names, to the rest of the galaxy they are the same hence the name "jedi civil war," not light vs dark war or jedi vs sith war. and the reason the grey are jedi is because they reisde in the jedi temple.
and im not saying qui gon had a little dark in him. as a matter of fact i never said any grey jedi had dark in them. go back and read the topic post plz.the grey jedi dont see things in terms of light and dark there is only the force

and plz before anyone else compares the grey jedi to the dark side plz go back and read the topic post.

Tulak Hord
Well, every Jedi has a little darkside in them. It's impossible to have order without chaos, even inside yourself. And I didn't say the grey associated with the darkside. It's almost like with KOTOR, if you're in the middle, you can use both sides.

Darth Calladus
what im trying to get people to undertsand is that there is a median, the force does not take sides. the grey jedi operate outside of the council doing the will of the force hence qui gon jinn, i shall do what i must hence qui gon jinn for the will fo the force. as a maverick he wnet against the council many times. as a grey jedi wuld most likely do. to them the council and the republic are secondary to serving the force.

Darth Calladus
like it said in my original post, if the force cares for anything it is balance. in episode 1 the council wuld not allow anakin's training but qui gon persisted anyway believing him to be the chosen who wuld bring balance

quote: finding him was the will of the force

a grey jedi wuld do exactly what he did to bring balance to the force. even if it did undermine the council.

Darth Calladus
and for the last time dammit there is not just light and dark plz stop looking at it that way.

why do you think the jedi are so anal about controlling ur passions and anger and fear in such. because even as a lightside jedi u still have the potential for a dark path even as a sith u have the potential for "redemption." the capacity for light and dark is in all of us but that dosent determine who we are at the core. and thats the grey part. when you get past the titles(jedi and sith) and the light and dark classifications
those dont determine who you are at the core or as a whole. the lightside dosent dtermine ur actions no more than the darkside does. neither of them do. because ur not born being light or dark, good or bad. who we are is determined by our actions and who we react to them. people are incapable of doing all good or bad.

Jedi master Dooku made a horrible mistake by choosing to ambush the mandalorians at the battle of galidraan which nearly massacerd the enitre mandalorian ranks.he said himself it was a mistake and shuld have been carried through


typically the stereotype of a sith is ruthless and without mercy but there were many times over history where the sith showed mercy to their own ranks.

Palpatine was willing to help anakin save padme jus get him on his side. when you think about it palpatine didnt really need anakin that much, he was an extremly powerful ally but he culd have issued order 66 at any given time, the jedi numbers were dwindled anyway. and count dooku had he been trying culd have killed both anakin and obiwan.
(dont argue with me on this one because it's in the ROTS book)

Great Vengeance
I agree with you calladus, In kotor II kreia talks about this extensively about how sith and jedi are waged in an eternal battle between good and evil, both sides trying to overcome the other when it is really just the force balancing itself out. Kreia viewed the force as manipulator that causes untold suffering and chaos just to sate its need for balace.

I dont know if that is true as the movies always view the force as a inherently good thing however people generally view nature as a good thing as well but few really understand how evil nature can be. Either way its obvious the jedi and sith are in a constant game with eachother and the grey jedi goes beyond that, people like kreia,jolee,qui-gon Ive always thought to have a clearer view on things than say somone from the jedi council. This is proven when in the ROTS novelization yoda submits to qui-gon as his apprentice and calls him a much wiser jedi than himself.

Darth Calladus
the jedi and sith are fully capable of understanding the true nature of the force but i doubt they ever will as long they contiue their eternal intergalactic struggle whithin and against each other.

Fishy
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
I agree with you calladus, In kotor II kreia talks about this extensively about how sith and jedi are waged in an eternal battle between good and evil, both sides trying to overcome the other when it is really just the force balancing itself out. Kreia viewed the force as manipulator that causes untold suffering and chaos just to sate its need for balace.

I dont know if that is true as the movies always view the force as a inherently good thing however people generally view nature as a good thing as well but few really understand how evil nature can be. Either way its obvious the jedi and sith are in a constant game with eachother and the grey jedi goes beyond that, people like kreia,jolee,qui-gon Ive always thought to have a clearer view on things than say somone from the jedi council. This is proven when in the ROTS novelization yoda submits to qui-gon as his apprentice and calls him a much wiser jedi than himself.

You are wrong, they are grey in a way but they are still on their side.

Ultimately Kreia was never on the lightside she did what she thought she had to do.

Jolee made a very clear choice for the lightside when Revan went Dark, and QGJ was far from Dark.

Not listening to the council and not doing being a Sith does not mean you are grey or a dark Jedi, you are still on the light or the dark side, the only difference is how you think about things.

Jolee for instance would never let evil come to some places, he would stop it with all his power, but if something happened he would let them figure it out for themselves first. Only if they could not he would help. Thats not really grey. He just thinks of the people and does what he thinks is best, and that ussually means letting people figure it out for themselves.

Jolee realises the weakness in the two sides, but he has made a very clear choice for the light side. Just not the Jedi.

Darth Calladus
IIIIIIIII dont know about that 3rd statement cuz like i said a thousand times arleady there isnt jus light or dark. the grey jedi wuld do anything for the force even if it meant playing witht the darkside somewhat or trying to keep the peace in the situation, it dosnet matter to them as long as the outcome is what the force wants. and kreia is great exmaple of a grey jedi even though her true motives were fanatic. you need to actually listen to her teachings their not light or dark because they stem from both sides while taking neither. as ur teacher she is what its like to take lessons from a gery jedi.
One who cares not for the darkside or the light, because what are really serving, what is the real source of our power? (Hint:not the lightside or dark side)

Fishy
"There must always be a Darth Traya" - Kreia

She basically admitted to being Dark, she was following the Dark Side. Look IRL you are right but no in Star Wars.

There is a light side - good
And a Dark Side - Bad

There are some people who want to do good things by being bad (Revan for instance) They are still DS, even if they eventually make things better. There is no such thing as a LS where you kill people in SW. There just isn't, there isn't any bigger logic behind it, thats just how it is.

dgeniu
It does not matter what powers you have - buthow you choose to use them! And there are only two choices - for Good or for Evil. I think that any Jedi serves the principles of the Force, but through their alliance with the Repulic they hoped to influence those in charge - and by influencing the boss, you could influence the ones servig. It may seem things are sometimes grey, but in reality, they are black and white - because the fundemantal powers are Good and Evil, Jedi and Sith.

Kreia was a Sith from the very begining. Her terachings are deceiving attempts of turning the exile to the Dark Side. (failed with me)

Qui-Gon is not grey, he is just wise, open-minded. (yes, even among the Jedi one can find less-wise individuals)

Of course Jedi have evil in them, just as Sith have good - just as any sentient is expected to. It depends on the amount of Good or Evil in one person for him to be qualified as Good or Evil.

What I mean is that Good and Evil are THE two fundemantal powers which shape our existence - Good creates, Evil destroys, then Good recreates and so on and so forth giving way to progress with their conflict. The grey side has no part to play here... Balance can be reached in the dominion of Good, when all scores are settled within somebody, when that person is at peace with himself - villains are always restless, unhappy because of their many dark traits - greed, lust, envy - which always leave them wanting more. Therefore they cannot find their balace unless they redeem themselves.

However, there is no such thing as absolute Good or Evil, but as an overview over the situation, things are Black and White - not absolutely, but because of peoples`choices which can diminuish or enlarge their malevolent or benevolet nature.

darth-yoda
you guys have said that dark upsets the balance and good fights to restor it but with out that fight there would be no balance bad things happen in this world because good things happen for there to be good there always has to be bad eg we fight to help save lifes our people die in that foght so tehre is always bad like there wil layways be good do you undertsand what i mean the grey jedi if they exist are the balance a neutral not bad or good do you guys/gals no what im getting at

dgeniu
One cannot sever gimself compleatly from conflict. If you chose to be neutral to one fight, that doesn`t mean you will thrown off the board. (this can also be interpreted symbolically)

e.g. There is a rebelion and you chose to be neutral. But what if you see somebody in dire need of help? Do you walk by or stop to assist him/her? Do you CHOOSE to be Good or Evil?

And let us not forget about the internal struggles which shape us greatly. Such as fears and doubts - you cannot be grey in the face of fright - either you silence it or it silences you...

darth-yoda
hmm good point

darth-yoda
so a balance can never be achived there is always good or evil but the path you walk the road you take is always up to you ill think on this hmm

Darth_Janus
Originally posted by dgeniu
One cannot sever gimself compleatly from conflict. If you chose to be neutral to one fight, that doesn`t mean you will thrown off the board. (this can also be interpreted symbolically)

e.g. There is a rebelion and you chose to be neutral. But what if you see somebody in dire need of help? Do you walk by or stop to assist him/her? Do you CHOOSE to be Good or Evil?

And let us not forget about the internal struggles which shape us greatly. Such as fears and doubts - you cannot be grey in the face of fright - either you silence it or it silences you...

I couldn't have said it better. Well... I probably could have, but not in under 90000 words. Well said.

darth-yoda
iot was pretty good wasnt it im trying to think off a come back

Darth Calladus
hold on slow ur roll....all that is in decision making which is, i will admit, a very important of who we are, but of course ur going to fight to defend urself any jedi or sith or non force user for that matter knows that. and second if that post is some indirect way of talking about the clone wars your still wrong. because that war was a revoloution against a weak and failing instituion. the jedi order has never had their more important priorities together. the force like this other guy said before is liek nature isnt dosent take sides. its good sometimes and bad sometimes (actually id say it was bad most of the time). something thats good and bad cnat inherntly be judged good or evil like you said before. because its never a constant like the force is.

EG. Jango Fett, he was a bounty hunter(a damn good one too), in attack of the clones he is portrayed as a villain, but if you had played Star Wars: Bounty Hunter, he was a actually nice levelheaded person with a heart. but he never was really a good guy but never really a bad guy, he was just on a bad team in AOTC, and you cant say he was evil and selfish cuz he was a bounty hunter. that is a common job in the star wars galaxy, you cant call somone evil for doing their job, unless its flat out obvious..............so what wuld you call him exactly?
Light or Dark?

remeber the force effects evryone not jus jedi and sith.

Great Vengeance
Fishy-

True jolee was inherently good along with qui gon, and kreia had questionable morality but they didnt adhere to either the foolishness of the jedi restrictions or the sith mad lust for power, they allowed themselves to go beyond white and black in an attempt for real truth.

dgeniu-

Grey jedi arent free from all conflict, they just try to stay out of the eternal battle between jedi and sith. Qui gon wasnt really a grey jedi but he did follow some grey jedi ideals, instead of serving the dogmatic jedi teachings, he served the force.

darth-yoda
to janus

if u were walking down a strret and some one was kicking a man on the floor what would i do well good would be save the man bad picking a fight with the man beating him up and killing him demanding a reward for savibng the mans life if you dont get one you kill him


walking bye not paying attention letting life take its course and not getting involved i see that as nuetral

grey jedi aree true masters of the force using darkpowers force choke ect lead to darkness if you can master the abbilerty to use them and not be courrupted you desever the title master of the force

Darth Calladus
look, in order to see to see and undersand the true nature of the force, one has to put away the limitations and restrictions the jedi and sith put on each other. light and dark, to me those are just limits, to stay one belief and one ideal, and not even expirement a little with a few dark or light practices, thas a weakness, and to serve and protect a weak instituion that has no control over what goes on in the galaxy, is also a weakness.
To be honest, the sith are closer to true mastery of the force then the jedi are. even if their power is dark, unatural, and almost supernatural, they dont want to weaken themselves. they embrace a much larger view of the force then jedi do. the jedi encourage you to learn and embracea large of the force, when the ironic thing is they set up all kinds of barierrs.

mind your feelings and emotion

no love, the jedi in some cases have even exiled their ranks for falling in love.

always hounding you telling you the dark side is ever present.

they say that concentration and focus it the key to obtaining true power.
the sith have focus, they have more focus than the jedi do, in times of fear the jedi crack(Grievous), they prefer to medidtate rather than take action before a threat gets worse(Mandalorian Wars), and the jedi are arrogant, master yoda and mace windu even admitted this.

and whats wrong with being a little brash and impulsive. to much thinking and less acting will let the moment pass you by.

As for the sith, there to focused on their power and themselves to see the true nature of the force. their passionate hatred for the jedi is what blinds them to understanding their cehif desire, power. which can be obtained when meditating and concetrating like the jedi do, but thats not the only way.



Each side, Jedi and Sith, have extemely powerful practices and techniques, and if those could be merged the possibilties are endless. with power like that the saying "nothing is impossible with the force," has a completely new meaing. the ability to create and preserve life, or the power to strip away the ability to use the force, those are masterful abilities. using practicies from one side while taking neither is mastery.




Bruce Lee: If you always put limit on everything you do, physical or anything else. It will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.

Fishy
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Fishy-

True jolee was inherently good along with qui gon, and kreia had questionable morality but they didnt adhere to either the foolishness of the jedi restrictions or the sith mad lust for power, they allowed themselves to go beyond white and black in an attempt for real truth.

The Sith are not necessarily all that is Dark and the Jedi all that is good, not following the code of either two does not make you neutral. It makes you you, but you are still on one of the two sides.

Wanderer259
I think he's only just read Skywalker's talk from the NJO series.

Wanderer259
The only possibility with a Light Side user including Dark Side practices and techniques is that said LSer will fall to the Dark Side. The Dark Side inherently corrupts its users towards evil.

There is no in-between - there is the Light and Dark Sides. Straddling the fence (which is insanely difficult, supposedly) will merely prolong the inevitable choice the individual Force user must make. Tempting the Dark Side such as that only allows its pull to become stronger over time.

Darth_Janus
"All that remains for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing."

Yoda, if that is your version of neutrality, it is moral cowardice, not indifference. Inaction does not save you from the wrong action if inaction in itself is wrong. If I know that a boy is about to be hit by a truck and you do nothing, that is passive evil, it is not neutral. Neutrality is, really, a myth when it comes to morality. Even Lucas believes as much. The man read some fifty books on morality before he made the first movie.

darth-yoda
janus
i think that every thing happens for a reason i live my life and let other peoples lives take the corse so i i live this life i belive it to nuetral not cowardly i also think that mastering the dark force powers and marsting the abbilerty to use them without bein corrupted is mastering the force itself

Darth_Janus
Well, you believe that. I'm happy for you, even if you are sorely misguided.

But rationally, reasonablly, such an attitude borders on ethical egoism and is fundamentally unsound. If everyone acted as you did and didn't care a whit about the next guy, this world and civilization itself would fall apart. You would not be sitting before a computer debating science fiction.

As for mastering the darkside without being corrupted that is nonsense. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. If that were ever not the case, we would have dozens if not millions of enlightened despots in our time. And guess what? We don't.

Darth_Janus
Also, in regards to Bruce Lee... I hardly doubt his words apply to the Force. Bruce Lee was a martial artist. His art requires dedication and talent that comes with a built-in self-control mechanism. You do not see "Kung fu star murders dozens" in the headlines, because they have control. They have come far to achieve such power and control. However, much like a gun, the Force itself can be rather cheap power. Less cheap than a gun, for sure, but no less effective or deadly. With such an overwhelming ability one cannot simply say "I will dabble in all aspects, regardless to morality, and pass it off as testing myself and expanding on my limits." This is horrible self-rationalisation and it reeks of carelessness, something that should never possess such power.

darth-yoda
you may be janus one of if not the smartest people iv ever talked to and your completly right i have enjoyed this debate and hope to have more also my respect for you has sky rocketed i just dont no what to day bak to what you jsut said but i am not unhappy i lost iv looked at it as learning u are also 8 yrs older than me so you have got a slight advantage

Darth_Janus
Thank you for your kind words, but remember age isn't always wisdom in itself. It is a factor in wisdom but never the sole factor. How we find things out is by asking AND accepting the truth once we stumble across it.

exanda kane
Damn this thread got philosophical. Well, I gues that wraps that up kids . . .

Darth_Janus
You missed all the fun, too.

exanda kane
Only 2 years older than me. I could pwn you, sorry its late and ive become aggressive. . .

Darth_Janus
How can you pwn, young'in?

Darth Calladus
heh im only 15

Darth Calladus
i jus watch the movies, when i saw this site i jus started thinkin about stuff. i like debating is healthy and enlightening.

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by Darth Calladus
heh im only 15

Heh Im still a month away from 15 so Im technically 14 but age doesnt stop me however.

Darth Calladus
lol nice man, we young bucks gotta hold it down

darth-yoda
i only turned 15 this month but i give itas good as i get it in deates

Captain REX
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Oh geez, not more Grey Jedi gobbledigook. The whole 'Grey' thing has been made up by clueless fans who have entirely missed the point of what GL has been trying to say.

The Light Side of the Force is GOOD. The Dark side is EVIL. There is nothing that can be at fault with the Light Side because it is the very representation of what good IS. Furthermore, Star Wars has an entirely Black and White morality- GL deliberately designed it that way. And Balance is served by the Good. That again is GL's word.

Using the Dark Side makes you evil. Full stop. No argument.

Incidentally, the Jedi serve the Republic because it is the right thing to do. And they are NOT mired in politics.

Adolescent hogwash. all of it. Any fan into 'Grey' stuff loses my respect immediately.

I'm re-quoting this because obviously you did not read it.

There is no such thing as a Grey Jedi. There's a renegade Jedi, who may not wish to serve the Jedi Order or listen to the Council, but still wishes to serve justice with the Light Side and destroy the Sith and Dark Jedi, so on and so forth.

Tulak Hord
Like Jolee Bindo or Qui-Gon Jinn?

Captain REX
Spot on. Neither wish to follow the Jedi Order as keenly as Yoda or Mace, but they are definitely Light Siders. If they were Dark Siders, they would be evil, and they would need to be killed by Jedi. big grin

Emperor Revan
I haven't bothered to read the other posts because, well, I'm lazy.

I think Gray Jedi are the true masters of the Force. Jedi always seem much stronger when they know both sides of the Force instead on only one. Luke became stronger, Dooku and Anakin became more powerful than Maul for instance who was trained to be a Sith lord from birth, etc. Revan seems to have a somewhat Gray view of things, tending to help the Republic through most of his actions. I have heard people say Luke is a Gray Jedi when he fights the Yuuzhan Vong.

It seems like almost all of the really powerful characters knew both sides of the Force. Revan, Luke, Traya, Dooku, Anakin, Kyle Katarn etc. though the only true masters of this style would probably be Luke, Jolee (he's pretty good for a really old guy that hasn't fought much in many many years) and possibly Revan. Gray Jedi aren't pure evil or pure good, have a more logical view of things, and seem more powerful by drawing on both sides of the Force IMO.

Captain REX
I think Grey Jedi are a joke. Dooku and Anakin are not Grey Jedi; Dooku was a Jedi, then he became a Sith; Anakin was a Jedi, then he became a Sith. They were not Grey Jedi.

Luke went Sith for awhile, when he fell; Kyle Katarn ALMOST fell, but then again, if JK2 were a movie, he'd not have lightning at all, unless Kyle were completely evil. It's just there for video game fun, which throws a lot of people off.

What I don't like is that the whole Grey Jedi thing seems to mean jumping back and forth between being evil and good. Anakin was supposed to be the only Sith Lord to amend himself, but then EU turned it into 'oh, it's easy! let's flip-flop sides with this character and this one and...' and so on.

There are no Grey Jedi. Either you're on the Light Side, or your on the Dark Side. No in between. GL makes it quite obvious.

Tulak Hord
The only one I know, besides anakin, who really makes amends from falling to the dark side is Revan, but he had his memory wiped, soo that's different. Kyp Durron was controlled by Exar Kun. Ajunta pall only regretted in death. Kyle Katarn can't make up his mind. Annie was the only one to fall to the furthest reaches of the dark side to come back to the light on his own.

Nactous
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
How does the order of Grey Jedi achieve True mastery of the Force by stradling both sides while mastering neither?

A gray Jedi does not completly devote himself to one side, therefore, widinig his options and powers. In the words of Jolee Bindo himself. "I see more gray now, than dark or light."

Nactous
Originally posted by Fishy
"There must always be a Darth Traya" - Kreia

She basically admitted to being Dark, she was following the Dark Side. Look IRL you are right but no in Star Wars.

There is a light side - good
And a Dark Side - Bad

There are some people who want to do good things by being bad (Revan for instance) They are still DS, even if they eventually make things better. There is no such thing as a LS where you kill people in SW. There just isn't, there isn't any bigger logic behind it, thats just how it is.

BTW. "It is one thing to fall, but even far worse to admit it." Ask yourself, is doing a bad thing with good intentions still a bad thing? Most Sith, to me feel like they dont reall know what their doing. Look at Anakin for example.

Captain REX
Originally posted by Nactous
A gray Jedi does not completly devote himself to one side, therefore, widinig his options and powers. In the words of Jolee Bindo himself. "I see more gray now, than dark or light."

That's impossible; you either join the Light or join the Dark, there is no in between. Choosing the Light Side means using the Force for good and benefit of others. Choosing the Dark Side means using the Force for evil and benefit of oneself. Even scratching the surface of the Dark Side means being rejected from the Light. It is impossible to be in the middle of THAT.

Anakin was not Gray; he was Light, then Dark, then Light. There's no Jedi blender that takes his history and makes it gray. stick out tongue

Darth Calladus
Originally posted by Darth Calladus
i say anyone that anyone who agress with him either refuses to grasp the concept of a median or is just flat out narrow-minded im gonna requote this cuz you obiviously did not read it before.

Darth Calladus
lmao look the poll says it all, the grey jedi win this topic, accept defeat theres nothing you can do about it, the sith got low on the polls, i think they have a llarger veiw on the force then the jedi do. the jedi are like watch dont fall to the dark side, and the sith dont gotta worry about to fallin to nothin

Sith Lord: remeber my apprentice dont fall to the light side, once you start down the light path forever will it dominate ur life.

Fishy
Grey Jedi may have the highest vote count, but they do not even exist... So it doesn't matter

Darth Calladus
lol, well you can tell urself that evrynite before you go to bed, they do exist cuz theres a veiw from the fans and they even have robes for them in KOTOR 2 sooooooooooooooo before you tell me they dont exist tell Obsidian first. cool

Fishy
They are different.

You can see Grey Jedi in two ways neither Dark nor Light or neither Jedi nor Sith. The last one exists, the robe in Kotor II have only purpose to show that there are Jedi that join no side and to make you balanced.

You have robes for Dark and Light only you needed some good robes for the people that wanted to be neither as well. Obsidiian gave it to them. Still those Jedi are still Dark or Light at the end they still make a choice and that makes them dark or light. There is no avoiding it.

Darth Calladus
look maybe r talkin out the baran do aqnd the matukai robes but i doubt dont see how that post argues the validity of grey jedi and that fact that robes in they game does support there exsistence

Fishy
No it doesn't, can you stay grey in the end of the game? No you can't.

Jolee was grey in Kotor 1 and you could be grey, but in the end you had to choose light or dark. Making the Exile and/or Revan light or Dark.

Captain REX
Originally posted by Darth Calladus
i say anyone that anyone who agress with him either refuses to grasp the concept of a median or is just flat out narrow-minded

I did read that Calladus, and you are basically accusing people who completely disagree with you a bunch of maroons.

Darth Calladus
thats a video game for a central character with a set story line, meaning he was supposed to pick a side.

Darth Calladus
lol ok look mac i also said ealier in the thread if ur gonna downcast the thread like that then dont post. sayin crap like anyone who likes grey jedi loses my respect and its adolescent crap, man im jus gonna throw shit like that rite back at you.

im asking you to be like fishy here and agrue with me about the grey jedi and i wuld like to thank you fishy for not being a jerk about the thread even though we have diferent opinons about the matter.

Fishy
Well thats because I can understand where you are coming from.

But you are simply wrong,

you see you think of Dark as Dark and light as Light. But look at Anakin why did he turn Dark? Because he wanted to do something good.

That does not mean he is bad or that he is good just that he follows the Dark Side. He was in perfect control, people on the Dark Side can still do good things and seem to follow the Light Side, but in the end they will choose themselves over everything else. They will rather laugh then help somebody. They would rather eat or sleep then help people.

Thats the Dark Side the light side is the other way. Jolee for instance always felt that people should figure it out for themselves he gave advice and helped when he knew it was necessary but for the most time he just sat around. Still when something happened and his helpw as needed he would give it.

He looked to be grey but was still on the light side. Ultimately you still follow one of the two sides, even if your actions sometimes contradict it.

Nai Fohl
Well...

There are no "grey" Jedi as well as there aren't "grey" things in life. Everything can be devided into "good" and "evil", "right" and "wrong" at least in an individual point of view.

Now talking about the SW universe people aren't considered "light side" or "dark side" because of the powers they use they are judged by the things they do with their powers. Take Mace Windu (Vapaad - channeling "dark side" feelings and use it as a weapon for the light side) or NJO Luke...both "light side" characters that used "dark side" powers or emotinons to serve the force.

And you base that "grey" Jedi stuff on wrong assumptions. "Serving the force" means being light side and that is clearly stated in the films as well as in the books. A Jedi uses the force by letting the force control his actions. The Sith are the opposite. They manipulate the force according to their goals.

So there is simply no space between "dark side" and "light side" to fit something like "grey Jedi" into it. You can say that people that use powers coming from both sides of the force are stronger than people who only use the powers of one side but still even those people can be devided into "Jedi" or "Sith / Dark Jedi".

Darth_Janus
I thought I already clarified this. READ WHAT I POSTED.

This issue is a non-issue. Grey Jedi, whether they exist or not, are anathema to GL's eternal conflict as in Star Wars, and they can not be masters of the Force, only its tools. Now, let this debate die.

Darth Calladus
well i was done with the debate not because of what you said, i didnt even know you said that, but..... now im gonna keep going because to "tools of the force" and "grey dosent apply to life," ohhhh yeah this debate lives on.

Human Vader
Now wait a minute. Life itself can not be divided into black and white, good and bad. there are a lot of grey aspects in life. However I'm not sure on the whole grey jeedai thing. We know there are the "lost twenty" who removed themselves from the jeedai order. now they could still be lightside force users, or have turned to the darkside. But what if theres a force user, who just doesnt care either way. Isn't out to help people, but isn't out to hurt them either. Wouldn't they be considered grey jeedai? It's kind of confusing for me.

Darth Calladus
man have you guys thought to actually look at it from a different point of veiw im mean really, how can you ever understand somthin if you go of one particualr perspective,(the Jedi) which is not always right. the jedi are not all good regardless if GL makes it look, i dont even think GL has it so that the Jedi look like God's angels. and im not talkin ohh they have a little darkside in them.what about the Sith huh? the sith are really not that bad. ive heard almost all of you say that sevring darkside means ur bad. but how is it bad when ur doing what u think is right? the jedi try to serve the republic when the republic is really not all that great. its not a democracy, its full of corrupted and power hungry politicians.why do you think therer was a seperatist movment. they werent bad either they were doing what they thought was right. because the republic obviously werent making things better. jus because you have dark powers does that mean you have to be evil? what if somone fell to the darkside beacause they had no choice? (Anakin,Revan)

Darth Calladus
Originally posted by Human Vader
Now wait a minute. Life itself can not be divided into black and white, good and bad. there are a lot of grey aspects in life. However I'm not sure on the whole grey jeedai thing. We know there are the "lost twenty" who removed themselves from the jeedai order. now they could still be lightside force users, or have turned to the darkside. But what if theres a force user, who just doesnt care either way. Isn't out to help people, but isn't out to hurt them either. Wouldn't they be considered grey jeedai? It's kind of confusing for me. THAT IS EXCATLY WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you guys make such a big deal over light and dark.....THEY DONT CARE, THEY DONT LOOK AT IT THAT WAY....... there is a choice in evrything that we do.......you cant tell someone you have to be light or dark you jus have to be......it does not work that way you jus cannot do that. you guys are making it look like they dont hvae a choice other than the 2 extremes. you guys dont know what its liek to use the force i sure as hell dont know either but you cant tell me im wrong anymore than i can tell you your wrong.




THAT IS IT THIS THREAD IS DONE YOU HAVE YOUR OPINOIN I HAVE MINE NONE OF USE KNOWS WHAT THE FORCE IS LIKE. AND NO BOOK OR VIDEO GAME OR MOVIE IS GONNA MAKE US UNDERSTAND IT ANY EASIER BECAUSE THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SOME BOOK OR VIDEO GAME OR MOVIE THAT WILL RAISE EVEN MORE QUESTIONS


Please this thread is done no more posts please no more
whether im wrong or right, like i said ur opinoin vs. mine but this topic is done

Nai Fohl
Originally posted by Human Vader
Now wait a minute. Life itself can not be divided into black and white, good and bad. there are a lot of grey aspects in life. However I'm not sure on the whole grey jeedai thing. We know there are the "lost twenty" who removed themselves from the jeedai order. now they could still be lightside force users, or have turned to the darkside. But what if theres a force user, who just doesnt care either way. Isn't out to help people, but isn't out to hurt them either. Wouldn't they be considered grey jeedai? It's kind of confusing for me.

For a single person there are no "grey" things in live. When you take multiple individuals (with their own views) there are "grey" things...but for a single human beings it's only "black" and "white" or "I don't care / I don't know". You always have to decide your oppinion because nobody has the ability to play Advocatus Diaboli and Advocatus Dei at once.

For the grey Jedi: There might be people like the "lost twenty" who aren't Jedi or Sith and there might be people that simply don't care about if they are "light side" or "dark side" and just do what they do or have another view on the force. I don't want to contradict that BUT they can be still judged by their actions and I don't mean "single events" but their overall behavior.
You don't have to go to the extreme positions to be "light side" or "dark side"...

Darth Calladus
so what is it then huh? you guys siad theres only light and dark

Darth Calladus
so how does that apply life huh? hmmmmmmmmm

ok lets do me then

im generally a nice person im a christian, i can make people laugh, im a good friend who has ur back, and im somone you wuld typically like to hang around, but some people think that im mean, im annoying, i take things to lightly, i take things to seriously, and that im just a jerk sometimes...........

well like some of you said before light or dark depends on judgement of behavior so what am I excatly, because like you said fohl there is only light and dark in our world whter they are extreme or not..........?

Darth Calladus
im done talking about the grey jedi as im hoping evryone else is but plz tell me how there is only light and dark in life? im talkin to you Fohl and you only i really want to know....

darth-yoda
ok this thread is over me and janus solved it you an not be gray and if you cannot a force user cannot right whatever you do in life is good or bad the example janus used was a man is gettin kicked in and you see if you walk past you are bad end of if you help him you are good end off this applys to force users they can not be grey every choich they make is good or bad in example a trader is getting bullied you walk past u=you are bad you help you are good

Darth_Janus
"All that remains for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing."

Darth Yoda, if that is your version of neutrality, it is moral cowardice, not indifference. Inaction does not save you from the wrong action if inaction in itself is wrong. If I know that a boy is about to be hit by a truck and you do nothing, that is passive evil, it is not neutral. Neutrality is, really, a myth when it comes to morality. Even Lucas believes as much. The man read some fifty books on morality before he made the first movie.


But rationally, reasonablly, such an attitude borders on ethical egoism and is fundamentally unsound. If everyone acted as you did and didn't care a whit about the next guy, this world and civilization itself would fall apart. You would not be sitting before a computer debating science fiction.

As for mastering the darkside without being corrupted that is nonsense. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. If that were ever not the case, we would have dozens if not millions of enlightened despots in our time. And guess what? We don't.


READ WHAT I SAY GUYS. I MIGHT ACTUALLY HAVE THE ANSWER. There is no grey, as Nai said and I have said. People only make grey to give themselves leeway. But morality IS black and white. The grey comes from not having the knowledge to see the black and white.

Darth Calladus
heh, your opinoin bro

Darth_Janus
Mine, Socrates', Kants'.... people far wiser, older, and more schooled than you, by far.

darth-yoda
you are wrong just admit it grey never has existed ever close this thread there is nothing more to debate janus is absolutely correct

Darth Calladus
ok so jus cuz ur a grown man and im a 15 yr old i dont have an opinoin
ok..................lol................

Darth Calladus
yoda you need shutup you didnt make any valid points in this thread and plz janus can speak for himself

darth-yoda
i did make a valid argument and shut up ya self

Darth Calladus
wow, what did you say bro, last i recall janus shutup you 2 times in this thread and what did you say? good point........wow way to argue

like i said im done no need to discuss grey no more this topic is done, doner and over

Darth_Janus
You're missing my point... Or rather, in your tongue...

ur missin my poit dude lol

Look, I've studied Ethics, philosophy and history. I've gone over the works of all kinds of thinkers in this world, and recently completed a book entitled... (Surprise!) Star Wars and Philosophy, from a series of books that ties-in philosophy and aspects from popular culture. After going over all the works in there, covering everything from the ethics of cloning to Jedi misleading Luke, Sith motives and whatnot, it's more apparent then ever that there isn't a grey. There ARE different ways of looking at things, but then, I can look at a bee and see danger and another person can see potential.... neither viewpoint neccessarily makes it so. Point? It's not "just my opinion, brah"... It's a combination of rational thought and freethinking for the last few thousand years, culminating in my post regarding your thoughts about this whole "Staying neutral and grey nonsense."

Consider this topic PWN3D.

Darth Calladus
LMAO you said pwned or whatever you said wit numbers and crap

Look mac im not tryin to start an arguement the topic is done like you said.....still i have my opinoin and like i said none of us has felt the force but jus beacause they dont exist dosent mean that there isnt a median in the force soooooooooooo for the last time:



THIS TOPIC IS CLOSED!!!!!!

darth-yoda
its simply why i said good point you no why BRO its because janus is smarter than me i was out smarted simply as i put forth a argument and i was wrong i have came to terms with that fact and now you need to...


Darth-Yoda out

Nai Fohl
Originally posted by Darth Calladus
im done talking about the grey jedi as im hoping evryone else is but plz tell me how there is only light and dark in life? im talkin to you Fohl and you only i really want to know....

Well...
Anything can be judged in terms of "morality" (probably coming from the points of view the society you live in supports) or at least "individual oppinions" and devided into "black" and "white" or "right" and "wrong".

I'll just give you an example. You said you are a christian and used that statement to back up your personal point of view that you are generally a nice person.

So:
Being a christian is right for you (individual oppinion)
Being a christian might be seen as good in your society (morality)
Being a christian can also be wrong (individual oppinion of an atheist)
Being a christian can be also be seen as bad in another society (jewish, islamist)

So it depends on your personal or societies point of view what is "black" and "white". For you as an individual there is no "grey". For example you can like or not like a person but you can't do both things at once.

Now "Dark" and "Light" side of the force are the overall morality system of the SW universe. If someone uses the force to do what seems right to him BUT might not serve the interests of the galaxy (or the force, or the majority of beings in the SW universe) he is just a "dark sider". And the other way around somebody that acts FOR the interests of the majority and maybe AGAINST his own oppinion can be considered being a "light sider".

Now...there is no space between that. The Seperatists didn't fight for democracy - their main interests were their own interests. Conclusion: Dark Side.

And for "falling into the dark side because you have no choice": There is always a choice.

Captain REX
Originally posted by Darth Calladus
lol ok look mac i also said ealier in the thread if ur gonna downcast the thread like that then dont post. sayin crap like anyone who likes grey jedi loses my respect and its adolescent crap, man im jus gonna throw shit like that rite back at you.

im asking you to be like fishy here and agrue with me about the grey jedi and i wuld like to thank you fishy for not being a jerk about the thread even though we have diferent opinons about the matter.

Going to throw shit at a mod? Niiice...

I am not being a jerk or downcasting anyone; if anything, you are the one downcasting me for my solid opinion that Grey Jedi do not exist. You are either a Jedi Knight/Master/Renegade, or you are a Dark Jedi/Sith Lord. Grey Jedi cannot be masters of the Force if they cannot exist in George Lucas's world. All things in Star Wars, if not in real life, can usually be divided into black and white, good and evil, Light and Dark.

The Grey Jedi simply does not work.

Darth Calladus
i wuld like to disagree with you on jus a few points you pulled up (nice post by the way, Fohl) but im rappin this up.

I wuld like to thank evryone for posting ur opinion and philosophies on this matter and formally and unofficially (since im not moderator and crap) close this thread up.

Calladus: Peace up, A-town Down

Im out

Captain REX
thumbup

Run oft... stick out tongue

darth-yoda
so are we mates calladus

Darth Calladus
yeah man of course.....no hard feelings at all big grin

Captain REX
*pokes Calladus with a stick* Respond to my post, Darthy boy! stick out tongue

darth-yoda
good good no hard feelings

Captain REX
Yeah...use the PMs for this, the thread is for discussing, not for apologizing. stick out tongue

darth-yoda
sorry REX LMAO anyway this thread is closed

Captain REX
Is it?

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