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Those who have read the original transformers comics are well aware how powerful OG unicron is.

Can phoenix overcome him?

Come on avvy you very well know she can. Or at least i hope you do.

Small unicron (comic) bio.

Comic Bio (US):
Unicron was a "fallen god" possessed of "power beyond measure," whose main drive was his near-insatiable hunger. Feeding on entire star systems, he continued his task unhindered until he eventually succeeded in devouring the entire universe. At this point, he fell into a sleep, his hunger finally appeased.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Small unicron (comic) bio.

Comic Bio (US):
Unicron was a "fallen god" possessed of "power beyond measure," whose main drive was his near-insatiable hunger. Feeding on entire star systems, he continued his task unhindered until he eventually succeeded in devouring the entire universe. At this point, he fell into a sleep, his hunger finally appeased.

Well that quote saya it all. Phoenix as you should know by now avvy is the primal force of creation. A universe devouring entity is not on her level. Especially when she holds universe in her hand as if theyre nothing.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Come on avvy you very well know she can. Or at least i hope you do.

Double post..check next quote.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Well that quote saya it all. Phoenix as you should know by now avvy is the primal force of creation. A universe devouring entity is not on her level. Especially when she holds universe in her hand as if theyre nothing.

I've seen the pic, was she really holding all of creation in her hand?

I mean devouring everything including, space, time, other gods...everything...except yourself in a void..thats pretty impressive as well.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
I've seen the pic, was she really holding all of creation in her hand?

I mean devouring everything including, space, time, other gods...everything...except yourself in a void..thats pretty impressive as well.

You do realise phoenix is the primal force of creation that made the nultiverse dont you? Phoenix is way too much for unicron. In that pic you saw she was holding a universe in her hand and was telekinetically restructuring its matter and its timeline to get rid of a terrible future. Feats like that are way beyond eating a universe. Galactus when his hunger has gotten out of control has apparently eaten a universe

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You do realise phoenix is the primal force of creation that made the nultiverse dont you? Phoenix is way too much for unicron. In that pic you saw she was holding a universe in her hand and was telekinetically restructuring its matter and its timeline to get rid of a terrible future. Feats like that are way beyond eating a universe. Galactus when his hunger has gotten out of control has apparently eaten a universe

So phoenix is god?

You realize that OG Unicron destroyed everything else, time, space, other gods, and the creation of the multiverse was basically a result of a burp? It wasnt "just a universe"

Transformers issue #61

I'm not talking that pathetic robot from the movie.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
So phoenix is god?

You realize that OG Unicron destroyed everything else, time, space, other gods, and the creation of the multiverse was basically a result of a burp? It wasnt "just a universe"

Transformers issue #61

I'm not talking that pathetic robot from the movie.

A burp from unicron? lol

Phoenix is second only to TOOA. Jean has reached telekinetic godhood which means her consciousness permeates matter, all of time/space all realities. She has telekinetic control of all that is down to a molecular level. A universe eater is no match for the primal force of creation.

I think in the the transfomer comics isn't Unicron more like the prime force of destruction. Not sur but I think that is right.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
A burp from unicron? lol

Phoenix is second only to TOOA. Jean has reached telekinetic godhood which means her consciousness permeates matter, all of time/space all realities. She has telekinetic control of all that is down to a molecular level. A universe eater is no match for the primal force of creation.

Yup..don't kill the messenger..I didnt write this story..lol

Unicron destroyed everything...all reality. Not simply a universe. The few remaining gasses became the presence and created the new multiverse as well as primus...but it couldnt do a damn thing to stop Unicron..it feared him.

Originally posted by newjak86
I think in the the transfomer comics isn't Unicron more like the prime force of destruction. Not sur but I think that is right.

Thats just an assumption, a guess thats not his stated universal role

Originally posted by newjak86
I think in the the transfomer comics isn't Unicron more like the prime force of destruction. Not sur but I think that is right.

He was the god of destruction, and the only thing left after he destroyed everything, including time and space was him and the void(nothingness.)

The robotic version that came later was severely powered down. Phoenix would laugh at that one.

Actually I think it is his role to destroy everything. I think that him and his brother Primus(who I think is the guardian of creation) exist on two planes. One is the physical plane where they are the giant robots. They also live in realm where they are basically abstracts kinda. Yep but Unicron destroyed the orginal creation and then slept because it fulfilled it's role. When Unicron Awoke it saw that a new creation was made it he was really mad and had it not been for Primus would have destroyed this one as well.

The power to create is far greater than the power to destroy. Creating existence all of the abstracts is a greater feat than destroying the multiverse

Yes but in the transormer universe they are seen as equals pretty much.
Because they are seen as the highest point of opposites. You know Unicron is the highest form of destruction and Primus is the highest form of creation so they are equal. So by that logic basically phoenix would be Primus so they would be equals.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The power to create is far greater than the power to destroy. Creating existence all of the abstracts is a greater feat than destroying the multiverse

We don't know if Unicron could have done the same simply for the fact that he wouldnt. He wanted to be the only thing, and he basically succeeded.

Still, what good is the creation of abstracts and all, when you are against a being who could destroy everything you create including you?

By the way Galactic...are you reffering to Jean or to the actual phoenix force itself?

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
We don't know if Unicron could have done the same simply for the fact that he wouldnt. He wanted to be the only thing, and he basically succeeded.

Still, what good is the creation of abstracts and all, when you are against a being who could destroy everything you create including you?

By the way Galactic...are you reffering to Jean or to the actual phoenix force itself?

Theyre one and the same so it doesnt actually matter. The separate fire bird is just a manifestation of jeans powers its not a separate entity.

Unicron is a suped up Galactus. . .

Phoenix has this.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Theyre one and the same so it doesnt actually matter. The separate fire bird is just a manifestation of jeans powers its not a separate entity.

Reason I'm asking is because Jean manifested the powers at some point..she didnt always have them, correct?

If so, Unicron can kill her easily at any point in time at will. Now the manifestation is a different story.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Unicron is a suped up Galactus. . .

Phoenix has this.

And what could phoenix possibly do to beat Uni?

Have you read the rest of the forum?

Anyway....Galac...I hope you are enjoying this as much as I am... you probably never expected old tinhead to be so powerful...lol

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Reason I'm asking is because Jean manifested the powers at some point..she didnt always have them, correct?

If so, Unicron can kill her easily at any point in time at will. Now the manifestation is a different story.

Jeans always been phoenix. Its part of her genetic makeup that she can tap into the primal force of creation. Through phoenix the ultimate mutation she has become one with all that is.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
A burp from unicron? lol

Phoenix is second only to TOOA. Jean has reached telekinetic godhood which means her consciousness permeates matter, all of time/space all realities. She has telekinetic control of all that is down to a molecular level. A universe eater is no match for the primal force of creation.


Ok now this is going a wee bit too far...... Galactic storm i have accepted your love of phoenix but this is pushing it , your acting like a fanboy now . I shall change my mind if you show me some damn proof that says she is the second most powerful being in all of existence

(And no holding the universe in ones hands does not count , hell i expect galactus could do that if he honestly wanted to ).

Originally posted by grey fox
Ok now this is going a wee bit too far...... Galactic storm i have accepted your love of phoenix but this is pushing it , your acting like a fanboy now . I shall change my mind if you show me some damn proof that says she is the second most powerful being in all of existence

(And no holding the universe in ones hands does not count , hell i expect galactus could do that if he honestly wanted to ).

Uncanny Xmen 137 ok?

Plus Xmen Forever 1, 3 and 6 talks of how phoenix is the ultimate mutation that all humanity will eventually mutate into at which point humanity will become greater than all of the abstracts LT included. There ya go GF

Unicron has been shown to have destroyed everything else outside of himself. Thats a impressive feat any way u slice it.

You not gonna take that back grey fox? Acting like a fanboy am i? Im just stating the facts. So you being ignorant on the subject assumed me of being a fanboy. Thats not very nice lol

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Unicron has been shown to have destroyed everything else outside of himself. Thats a impressive feat any way u slice it.

Yeah it is impressive. A good thread might be Unicron Vs Anti-Monitor. Just a suggestion.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You not gonna take that back grey fox? Acting like a fanboy am i? Im just stating the facts. So you being ignorant on the subject assumed me of being a fanboy. Thats not very nice lol

Hey hey hey slow down there i accept that info ok , just because it takes me a while to reply doesn't mean i was ignoring you i was just posting a new thread that also shows why dbz CAN be used on this forum.

and yes i do Now take back what i said.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yeah it is impressive. A good thread might be Unicron Vs Anti-Monitor. Just a suggestion.

Good suggestion. I wish I knew more of anti monitor.

What are you talking Galactic Phoenix vs. Unicron is a perfect match.
Unicron is the Primal force of destruction and phoenix is the primal force of creation. This would be a massive battle.

Originally posted by newjak86
What are you talking Galactic Phoenix vs. Unicron is a perfect match.
Unicron is the Primal force of destruction and phoenix is the primal force of creation. This would be a massive battle.

This thread is winding down thats why i made the suggestion.

I see and what has been the general consensus

Originally posted by newjak86
What are you talking Galactic Phoenix vs. Unicron is a perfect match.
Unicron is the Primal force of destruction and phoenix is the primal force of creation. This would be a massive battle. As the name phoenix implies, not only is this primal force a force of creation but also of destruction.

Hey GS? What happened after this again:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/hgwelles/phoenix_vs_galactus-2.jpg

Probably Pheonix cause Omega Supreme beat up Unicron on his own once upon a time.

Yes but she acts as the Primal force of creation but can destroy as well Unicron could possibly do the same thing but it is not who he is.
You see before this creation there was another that Unicron completely destroyed. After he did this with nothing else to destroy he slumbered or went dormant his task for filled. although a few molecules escaped him this would become the building blocks for this new creation. Now this time creation has a guardian Primus who would equal phoenix. Unicron wakes up once he realizes that a creation has been made. He is furious and sets out to destroy it. Primus fights him and though he defeats Unicron he is killed in the process. Unicron is unable to continue after his victory but still lives. Primus places all the power of creation into one object incase Unicron returns. This becomes the transformer Matrix and it is the only thing Unicron fears. He fears it because it is the only thing that can hurt him.

They went back to earth and things carried on as normal for a while. But Jean had a constant urge to unleash her power, her role as an xman wasnt enough. She'd fly into space at night when the xmen were asleep and she'd destroy meteors just as a release. On one of these night trips she gave into her hunger for power and ate a star again. The solar system around it was unnhabited but this showed she was starting to give in to her dark side. When Jean got back to earth she was met by Kitty outside the mansion who said that she knew what Jean had been up to and that she needed help. She said that the xmen would not let her carry on like that. This angered Jean and she incinerated Kitty into a pile of ashes. She went on to destroy the rest of the Xmen and the whole planet before leaving for space. The last panel said that her power consumed the universe

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The power to create is far greater than the power to destroy. Creating existence all of the abstracts is a greater feat than destroying the multiverse
not realy thats like saying heads is more powerful then tails. they both are two sides of the same thing.

Originally posted by newjak86
Yes but she acts as the Primal force of creation but can destroy as well Unicron could possibly do the same thing but it is not who he is.
You see before this creation there was another that Unicron completely destroyed. After he did this with nothing else to destroy he slumbered or went dormant his task for filled. although a few molecules escaped him this would become the building blocks for this new creation. Now this time creation has a guardian Primus who would equal phoenix. Unicron wakes up once he realizes that a creation has been made. He is furious and sets out to destroy it. Primus fights him and though he defeats Unicron he is killed in the process. Unicron is unable to continue after his victory but still lives. Primus places all the power of creation into one object incase Unicron returns. This becomes the transformer Matrix and it is the only thing Unicron fears. He fears it because it is the only thing that can hurt him. The power of creation can hurt him?

Originally posted by supremthor
not realy thats like saying heads is more powerful then tails. they both are two sides of the same thing. Anybody can destory, but not everybody can create.

1 man by himself can kill 1,000 men.

1 man by himself can not create a single man.

Originally posted by newjak86
Yes but she acts as the Primal force of creation but can destroy as well Unicron could possibly do the same thing but it is not who he is.
You see before this creation there was another that Unicron completely destroyed. After he did this with nothing else to destroy he slumbered or went dormant his task for filled. although a few molecules escaped him this would become the building blocks for this new creation. Now this time creation has a guardian Primus who would equal phoenix. Unicron wakes up once he realizes that a creation has been made. He is furious and sets out to destroy it. Primus fights him and though he defeats Unicron he is killed in the process. Unicron is unable to continue after his victory but still lives. Primus places all the power of creation into one object incase Unicron returns. This becomes the transformer Matrix and it is the only thing Unicron fears. He fears it because it is the only thing that can hurt him.

It doesnt work like that NJ why would this simple guardian, equal phoenix? Your whole argument is based on assumptions. If Unicron fears the power of creation then you've got the answer to this thread right there for you. Phoenix is the primal force of creation who made all that is, who maintains creation, before being the one who destroys it all. Phoenix is also the one with all that is. Creation is a part of her she is its life essence.

Originally posted by Creshosk
The power of creation can hurt him?
It can just like he was able to kill Primus who basically was creation at the time they are equals in the transformer universe. The ultimate power on creation and the ultimate power of destruction are equals yet completely opposite. Since the Matrix houses the power of all creation it is the only thing left that can defeat him. This is why he is always scheming to destroy it because with it goes any fear of defeat he has.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It doesnt work like that NJ why would this simple guardian, equal phoenix? Your whole argument is based on assumptions. If Unicron fears the power of creation then you've got the answer to this thread right there for you. Phoenix is the primal force of creation who made all that is, who maintains creation, before being the one who destroys it all. Phoenix is also the one with all that is. Creation is a part of her she is its life essence.
still fighting the good fight

Originally posted by newjak86
It can just like he was able to kill Primus who basically was creation at the time they are equals in the transformer universe. The ultimate power on creation and the ultimate power of destruction are equals yet completely opposite. Since the Matrix houses the power of all creation it is the only thing left that can defeat him. This is why he is always scheming to destroy it because with it goes any fear of defeat he has.

Well then you know he's no match for phoenix then dont you if he fears the power of creation. It is your assumption tha he is the primal force of destruction it hasnt actually been stated in the comics so you dont no if he is phoenixes opposite. In marvel phoenix doesnt have an opposite because it embodies both the power to create and the power to destroy. Thats why it is the beginning of all things and the end of all things.

Originally posted by kgkg
still fighting the good fight

Its never ending. Its easier these days though. People know a lot more now lol

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It doesnt work like that NJ why would this simple guardian, equal phoenix? Your whole argument is based on assumptions. If Unicron fears the power of creation then you've got the answer to this thread right there for you. Phoenix is the primal force of creation who made all that is, who maintains creation, before being the one who destroys it all. Phoenix is also the one with all that is. Creation is a part of her she is its life essence.
The reason Primus would equal Phoenix is because is a part of creation as well but is also it's guardion since Unicron wants to destroy it. He is creation because he was able to pack all the powers of creation into object.
Primus very well could destroy creation and Unicron could very well make creation but that isn't the roles they have.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its never ending. Its easier these days though. People know a lot more now lol
i see good job

Originally posted by newjak86
The reason Primus would equal Phoenix is because is a part of creation as well but is also it's guardion since Unicron wants to destroy it. He is creation because he was able to pack all the powers of creation into object.
Primus very well could destroy creation and Unicron could very well make creation but that isn't the roles they have.

Either way unicron fears the power of creation. Phoenix has the power of creation and embodies both creation and destruction. You could even stretch it and say phoenix is lke primus and unicron rolled into one lol. In marvel phoenix is second to TOAA. That should be enough for you.

The power of creation can defeat Unicron. Phoenix is the power of creation. Phoenix can defeat Unicron.

In their comics Unicron and Primus have never been shown to be second to anybody that should be enough for you.
Yes the force of creation can hurt him just like he can destroy creation. It is the one reason he doesn't destroy creation now. Since all the power of creation which equals the power of Primus can hurt him. He waits schemeing and trying to manipulate other peope to destroy the Matrix so nothing can stand in it's way.

Originally posted by newjak86
In their comics Unicron and Primus have never been shown to be second to anybody that should be enough for you.
Yes the force of creation can hurt him just like he can destroy creation. It is the one reason he doesn't destroy creation now. Since all the power of creation which equals the power of Primus can hurt him. He waits schemeing and trying to manipulate other peope to destroy the Matrix so nothing can stand in it's way. So why does he have to have some one else destroy it?

Why doen't he just go in and destroy it?

Originally posted by Creshosk
The power of creation can defeat Unicron. Phoenix is the power of creation. Phoenix can defeat Unicron.
It isn't that he can be outright defeated by it but that it is the only thing possible that can beat him. Even if it is used against him there's no guarantee it will work. But since it has the power to he would rather have it removed by someone else then take the risk.

Originally posted by newjak86
It isn't that he can be outright defeated by it but that it is the only thing possible that can beat him. Even if it is used against him there's no guarantee it will work. But since it has the power to he would rather have it removed by someone else then take the risk. You said it yourself:

Originally posted by newjak86
Since the Matrix houses the power of all creation it is the only thing left that can defeat him.

Yes it is possible that it can defeat him.
OK I guess I haven't done a good job of explaining this.
The primal force of creation equals Primus who Unicron killed. Unicron was also hurt in this fight so he couldn't outright destroy creation after that. This gave Primus enough time to put all his power into the form of the Matrix so that creation could still protect itself.
Now Unicron is equal to Primus's power so there is no guarntee Unicron could defeat creation without loosing. So instead of taking the risk he would rather have someone else take care of it so he doesn't to deal with it.

Originally posted by newjak86
Yes it is possible that it can defeat him.
OK I guess I haven't done a good job of explaining this.
The primal force of creation equals Primus who Unicron killed. Unicron was also hurt in this fight so he couldn't outright destroy creation after that. This gave Primus enough time to put all his power into the form of the Matrix so that creation could still protect itself.
Now Unicron is equal to Primus's power so there is no guarntee Unicron could defeat creation without loosing. So instead of taking the risk he would rather have someone else take care of it so he doesn't to deal with it. Sounds like Primus was just a tool of creation rather than cration itself, otherwise what would be in the matrix?

Primus's soul is in the Matrix the very power of creation itself. Primus is creation or it's manifestation however you which to place it. Although Unicron is just as powerful as Primus but instead of using his power to create he destroys.

Originally posted by newjak86
Yes it is possible that it can defeat him.
OK I guess I haven't done a good job of explaining this.
The primal force of creation equals Primus who Unicron killed. Unicron was also hurt in this fight so he couldn't outright destroy creation after that. This gave Primus enough time to put all his power into the form of the Matrix so that creation could still protect itself.
Now Unicron is equal to Primus's power so there is no guarntee Unicron could defeat creation without loosing. So instead of taking the risk he would rather have someone else take care of it so he doesn't to deal with it.

Phoenix cant be killed it is beyond death. Creation is a creation of phoenix of phoenix it is not the be all and end all of phoenix. Phoenix makes creation plus its one with it all. Phoenix embodies both creation and destruction. Not just destruction like Unicron or creation like primus. Of course unicron and primus are second to something. Have you forgotten about God? Who do you think created Unicron? TOAA is God in Marvel.

OK Galactic Primus and Unicron are equal in power and can do eachother's role but it isn't thier nature. Unicron wishes to destroy instead of create. How do you know phoenix can not die only because it is creation and therefore can't die. Listen Unicron has destroyed all of creation before.

Originally posted by newjak86
OK Galactic Primus and Unicron are equal in power and can do eachother's role but it isn't thier nature. Unicron wishes to destroy instead of create. How do you know phoenix can not die only because it is creation and therefore can't die. Listen Unicron has destroyed all of creation before. Sopunds like he failed to do just that. . or else there wouldn't have been a primus.

Originally posted by newjak86
OK Galactic Primus and Unicron are equal in power and can do eachother's role but it isn't thier nature. Unicron wishes to destroy instead of create. How do you know phoenix can not die only because it is creation and therefore can't die. Listen Unicron has destroyed all of creation before.

Because its common knowledge that phoenix cannot die. You dont read a lot of Marvel do you? lol. Her name kinda hints at it as well dont you think lol. Im going to look up unicron for myself because you're changing your information because youre a fan of unicron obviously. Either way it doesnt matter phoenix is surpassed by no force but TOAA(God). Destroying creation as his top feat doesnt place him above a force that makes all of creation and is one with it. Phoenix has telekinetic godhood which is the ultimate power. Control of all that is, all reality, time, space, matter and energy down to a molecular level. Thats why its pointless putting phoenix against things cos its ridiculous.

Yes he missed a few molucules which became the next creation. This creation summoned all of it's power to create Primus so it could fight back meaning that Primus equals creation.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Because its common knowledge that phoenix cannot die. You dont read a lot of Marvel do you? lol. Her name kinda hints at it as well dont you think lol. Im going to look up unicron for myself because you're changing your information because youre a fan of unicron obviously. Either way it doesnt matter phoenix is surpassed by no force but TOAA(God). Destroying creation as his top feat doesnt place him above a force that makes all of creation and is one with it. Phoenix has telekinetic godhood which is the ultimate power. Control of all that is, all reality, time, space, matter and energy down to a molecular level. Thats why its pointless putting phoenix against things cos its ridiculous.
No it's only pointless because you like phoenix and you think Phoenix has no equal that only TOAA is above it so it can not be defeated. I'm not gonna insult you because you know what your talking about. But I don't like Unicron I hate the idea behind him but that doesn't change his power in fact I was doing some research and Primus was weaker than Unicron.
Edit: and I know perfectly fine what Phoenix is and that it can arise from the ashes. You have done a masterful job of highlighting what it can do and i command you on it.
Also how does not destroying creation stack up with creating it and being one with it. In fact being able to exist without creation is a big feat as well.

Originally posted by newjak86
No it's only pointless because you like phoenix and you think Phoenix has no equal that only TOAA is above it so it can not be defeated. I'm not gonna insult you because you know what your talking about. But I don't like Unicron I hate the idea behind him but that doesn't change his power in fact I was doing some research and Primus was weaker than Unicron.
Edit: and I know perfectly fine what Phoenix is and that it can arise from the ashes. You have done a masterful job of highlighting what it can do and i command you on it.
Also how does not destroying creation stack up with creating it and being one with it. In fact being able to exist without creation is a big feat as well.

Any superhuman can destroy with their powers but its only the more powerful ones that can create with them. Creshock has already tried to show you an example of this. When he said to you any man can kill dozens upon dozens of men but no man can create another man under his own power. The power to create as is common knowledge is greater than the power to destroy. Unicron destroying everything is impressive but not as impressive as creating all reality, time/space all life etc. Not only that but sustaining all life as well with your power. You used yourself that Unicron is weak against power connected with creation. Phoenix being the primal force of creation has that in abundance.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Any superhuman can destroy with their powers but its only the more powerful ones that can create with them. Creshock has already tried to show you an example of this. When he said to you any man can kill dozens upon dozens of men but no man can create another man under his own power. The power to create as is common knowledge is greater than the power to destroy. Unicron destroying everything is impressive but not as impressive as creating all reality, time/space all life etc. Not only that but sustaining all life as well with your power. You used yourself that Unicron is weak against power connected with creation. Phoenix being the primal force of creation has that in abundance.
Yes but in his fight with Primus he was winning which shows he is more than capable overpowering creation itself meaning that his powers must be on par with it.

Originally posted by newjak86
Yes but in his fight with Primus he was winning which shows he is more than capable overpowering creation itself meaning that his powers must be on par with it.

Primus had powers of creation. He wasnt on phoenixes level. He was not the god assigned primal force of creation which is second to none but him. Thats the difference. That should say it all to you. But basically if we went by feats, phoenixes outclass unicrons.

This why I hate to these high cosmic battles. Unicron comes from a different comic book so you can't just say that because she is second in her comic universe thats all that matters. Because if you go by that logic than I can place her in Unicron's world in she would be nothing more than creation so Unicron would smoke her. Now you place this outside of their universes then you take their biggest feats. Unicron destroys creation and survives outside of it then faces Creation incarnate and starts to overpower it. Phoenix makes creation and is one with it. So by these feats all I can say is that Unicron is at least on par with phoenix if not stronger.

Originally posted by newjak86
This why I hate to these high cosmic battles. Unicron comes from a different comic book so you can't just say that because she is second in her comic universe thats all that matters. Because if you go by that logic than I can place her in Unicron's world in she would be nothing more than creation so Unicron would smoke her. Now you place this outside of their universes then you take their biggest feats. Unicron destroys creation and survives outside of it then faces Creation incarnate and starts to overpower it. Phoenix makes creation and is one with it. So by these feats all I can say is that Unicron is at least on par with phoenix if not stronger.

Phoenix always destroys creation. Its what she does. She makes it, maintains it and eventually destroys it. Her feats are way beyond Unicrons. She isnt just creation, creation is a just part of her. Phoenix is a higher being that exists outside of creation. Unicron being a part of a reality even shows you that phoenix is beyond him. Phoenix could just wipe him out of existent. She surveys all future and realities. They are a part of her. She could just stop his creation.

Unicron has destroyed creation once?
Phoenix has destroyed creation. . . countless times?

Unicron had trouble destroying creation?
Phoenix does it with a thought?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Phoenix always destroys creation. Its what she does. She makes it, maintains it and eventually destroys it. Her feats are way beyond Unicrons. She isnt just creation, creation is a just part of her. Phoenix is a higher being that exists outside of creation. Unicron being a part of a reality even shows you that phoenix is beyond him. Phoenix could just wipe him out of existent. She surveys all future and realities. They are a part of her. She could just stop his creation.
That's just it in her world she is all these things in Unicron's it is nothing more than incarnation of creation which is something Unicron can destroy. He can't exist out of reality please reality is apart of creation maybe not in Marvel but where Unicron is it is so once again point is voided. And how is she gonna stop his creation because how he came to be is never given in great detail. You arguing that she is higher than anyone else besides TOAA which in Marvel is true. And you can't say her feats are greater because Not only does he destroy Creation but he lives outside of it sowing that he is beyond creation. When creation incarnate fights him Creation is no match. Phoenix is strong that i am not arguing but stop saying that she can just wipe Unicron on a whim at the best she is slightly stronger at worst Unicron is. Plus Unicron could possibly make creation himself since he is over it but chooses not to.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Unicron has destroyed creation once?
Phoenix has destroyed creation. . . countless times?

Unicron had trouble destroying creation?
Phoenix does it with a thought?
That is because she is the one who created it meaning she is the ultimate authority there.

Has Phoenix actually destroyed creation before?
Sorry, been a while since i read comics.

Originally posted by Katt
Has Phoenix actually destroyed creation before?
Sorry, been a while since i read comics.
It is her job to one day destroy creation then remake it and to keep doing this. So yes she can.

So she creates and destroys creation.
While Unicron only destroys it. I mean you say he CAN create to. But i mean he was create for purpose of destroying only?

Cause if so i'd say Phoenix would take this fight. Or i could aslo see it as a stalemate. Just a thought.

Originally posted by Katt
Has Phoenix actually destroyed creation before?
Sorry, been a while since i read comics.

Yes. Phoenix is the force that helped Galen survive the destruction of creation last time around. She helped him bon with Eternity to become galactus.

Originally posted by Katt
So she creates and destroys creation.
While Unicron only destroys it. I mean you say he CAN create to. But i mean he was create for purpose of destroying only?

Cause if so i'd say Phoenix would take this fight. Or i could aslo see it as a stalemate. Just a thought.
Thats just it he wasn't created to destroy it he chose to do so because it was within his power. He exists outside of creation and it is it's own thing. With Phoenix since she creates it it is more easy for her to destroy it since she is the ultimate power with. Think of it this was Phoenix creates something then something besides her decides to destroy it and does. This means that it is either stronger equal or a little less powerful but still comparable.

Originally posted by newjak86
Thats just it he wasn't created to destroy it he chose to do so because it was within his power. He exists outside of creation and it is it's own thing. With Phoenix since she creates it it is more easy for her to destroy it since she is the ultimate power with. Think of it this was Phoenix creates something then something besides her decides to destroy it and does. This means that it is either stronger equal or a little less powerful but still comparable.


Well.. Guess it could go either way then.

Thats what I have been trying to say. I never said that Unicron could outright beat Phoenix but that their powers were comparable enough to make this fight where either one could be beaten.

Originally posted by newjak86
Thats just it he wasn't created to destroy it he chose to do so because it was within his power. He exists outside of creation and it is it's own thing. With Phoenix since she creates it it is more easy for her to destroy it since she is the ultimate power with. Think of it this was Phoenix creates something then something besides her decides to destroy it and does. This means that it is either stronger equal or a little less powerful but still comparable.

Thats silly logic. Thats like saying that because i kick over and shatter one of icemans slides that im of comaparable power to him. Or that iceman could more easily shatter one of his ice slides that juggernaut could just because he created it. Youre really stretching here because youre a Unicron fan lol. Try and be objective and accepting of others points.

At the end of the day we can only go by feats since theyre from different comic universes. Phoenix has better feats. So from what we can judge phoenix wins.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats silly logic. Thats like saying that because i kick over and shatter one of icemans slides that im of comaparable power to him. Or that iceman could more easily shatter one of his ice slides that juggernaut could just because he created it. Youre really stretching here because youre a Unicron fan lol. Try and be objective and accepting of others points.

At the end of the day we can only go by feats since theyre from different comic universes. Phoenix has better feats. So from what we can judge phoenix wins.
I'm not a Unicron fan I hate the idea of someone other than the creator existing out of creation but you are trying to say something you can not prove and that Unicron isn't of comparable power. All I've heard is that Phoneix makes creation but Unicron destroyes creation and esixts outside of it and he's destroying something he didn't create proving that his power is beyond creation. You want to try and say it is stupid by saying it is a like saying someone destroying Iceman's shield well guess what that means that that person has to be atleast strong enough to do it. Unicron is strong enough todestroy something he didn't create but is Phoenix's biggest boast of power. This proves that they are comparable in power. It is obvious you are a Phoenix fan but a very knowlegable one that knows what they are talking about which is why i don't call you a fanboy. But I feel that I have at least taken your best and proven that Unicron is comparable and that Phoenix isn't leaps and bounds beyond him.

If Pheonix is so strong, how come she cant transform into a car?

Hmmm? Think about it....

Originally posted by newjak86
I'm not a Unicron fan I hate the idea of someone other than the creator existing out of creation but you are trying to say something you can not prove and that Unicron isn't of comparable power. All I've heard is that Phoneix makes creation but Unicron destroyes creation and esixts outside of it and he's destroying something he didn't create proving that his power is beyond creation. You want to try and say it is stupid by saying it is a like saying someone destroying Iceman's shield well guess what that means that that person has to be atleast strong enough to do it. Unicron is strong enough todestroy something he didn't create but is Phoenix's biggest boast of power. This proves that they are comparable in power. It is obvious you are a Phoenix fan but a very knowlegable one that knows what they are talking about which is why i don't call you a fanboy. But I feel that I have at least taken your best and proven that Unicron is comparable and that Phoenix isn't leaps and bounds beyond him.

I think the the true testament to great power is the ability to create, I mean creation is a greater feat that destruction, virtually anyone can destroy and only a handful can create. If you're comparing the virtual embodiment of Chaos and the manfestation of birth and creation, both can destroy, but only one can create. I'm not saying any of this on a bias perspective since I'm a Phoenix fan, I've also been a transformer fan since I was 2.

I think she could, one with telekinetic godhood is sure in the range of auto-alchemic transformation, and she could attach her conciousness to the car, but what do I know?

Originally posted by Phoenix_Avatar9
I think the the true testament to great power is the ability to create, I mean creation is a greater feat that destruction, virtually anyone can destroy and only a handful can create. If you're comparing the virtual embodiment of Chaos and the manfestation of birth and creation, both can destroy, but only one can create. I'm not saying any of this on a bias perspective since I'm a Phoenix fan, I've also been a transformer fan since I was 2.
Ok fine you want to argue that Unicron can not create fine I have been doing some more research. Unicron can take someone dead and bring them back to life or replenish their life force showing that he has the power to create as well but this is not his ultimate goal all he wants to do is destroy all of creation since he wants to be alone I guess. He can destroy Creation meaning that he has to be able to detroy time atoms space and dimensions this no small feat. So he has the power to destroy Phoenix's biggest boast as well as create. Man if you guys choose to disregard this then there's no hope. I have never once argued against phoenix's power but Unicron is comparable.

Originally posted by Onikirimaru
If Pheonix is so strong, how come she cant transform into a car?

Hmmm? Think about it....

How do you know she cant? If Impossible man can then im sure phoenix can

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
How do you know she cant? If Impossible man can then im sure phoenix can
Of course she could.

Originally posted by newjak86
Ok fine you want to argue that Unicron can not create fine I have been doing some more research. Unicron can take someone dead and bring them back to life or replenish their life force showing that he has the power to create as well but this is not his ultimate goal all he wants to do is destroy all of creation since he wants to be alone I guess. He can destroy Creation meaning that he has to be able to detroy time atoms space and dimensions this no small feat. So he has the power to destroy Phoenix's biggest boast as well as create. Man if you guys choose to disregard this then there's no hope. I have never once argued against phoenix's power but Unicron is comparable.

But thats not what this arguments about. Its whether phoenix would win over unicron and you've admitted that now, but because you're a unicron fan you just wanna hear from us that he's comparable just to soften the blow.

Bringing someone back to life is not an act of creation. That is a resurrection.

You know your a little bit too attached to your hero when you actually argue that they are so powerful they can transform into automobiles.

I dont think she can transform, because if she did then the first thing she would do would change into a 1990 Sunbird and tear ass around the galaxy.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But thats not what this arguments about. Its whether phoenix would win over unicron and you've admitted that now, but because you're a unicron fan you just wanna hear from us that he's comparable just to soften the blow.

Bringing someone back to life is not an act of creation. That is a resurrection.
It proves that he has the power to do something other than destroy. I HATE Unicron I think he ruined Transformers. Plus I never said Phoenix can win but I believe this is a toss up they are close and it could go either way. Man you guys are stubborn about this Phoneix thing if it isn't a God himself no one has a chance then huh. Wow but I'm having fun with this I hope you guys can at least Ackowledge that I'm putting up a good fight.

Wow, I leave and all sorts of crazyness happens in here..lol

Unicron does not fear creation, he hates the matrix because it's primus essence.
Primus is one with creation, however he basically had to commit suicide in order to stop unicron. Any other way...creation would have been completely destroyed this time with nothing left but unicron.

If Phoenix doesnt completely sacrifice itself (IE no coming back) then this fight would continue until everything is destroyed again which is the problem Primus had.

Should Phoenix destroy everything...all that would do is make Unicron happy.

It's nice to finally get some help

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You not gonna take that back grey fox? Acting like a fanboy am i? Im just stating the facts. So you being ignorant on the subject assumed me of being a fanboy. Thats not very nice lol

It's not your fault Marvel has gone insane and given the fanboys exactly what they want... x-men as the focal point of the MU.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
It's not your fault Marvel has gone insane and given the fanboys exactly what they want... x-men as the focal point of the MU.

I dont think i would have cared for that even back i was a marvel zombie and was subscribing to X-Men/Gen-X/Uncanny/etc.Now its just a big handjob to hardcore fanboys and to hell with any continuity or sense of storyline throughout the years.

All this talk made me pick up the latest comic and after reading this I must say the Pheonix is flippin sweet and can easily take on Unicron.

Originally posted by Onikirimaru
All this talk made me pick up the latest comic and after reading this I must say the Pheonix is flippin sweet and can easily take on Unicron.

HOLY @#4%!thats so sweet can you belive it

A CAR WOW!

I read this page out of the latest comic and I must say now Im convinced Pheonix can beat anybody.

This page

Originally posted by Nataku8188
It's not your fault Marvel has gone insane and given the fanboys exactly what they want... x-men as the focal point of the MU.



...but LT, HOTU, IG can still kick Phoenix Force's ass. And no, don't try to b.s. us with PF is second only to TOAA,G.S.

Oh Beyonder you said that Phoenix isn't second to TOAA your trouble now everything Phoenix is gonna come down on you now.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But thats not what this arguments about. Its whether phoenix would win over unicron and you've admitted that now, but because you're a unicron fan you just wanna hear from us that he's comparable just to soften the blow.

Bringing someone back to life is not an act of creation. That is a resurrection.

Yea, that's exactly what I mean, necromancers and sorcerers can summon and reanimate the dead but they cannot create, alchemists can build but not create. I never said that Unicron cannot do anything besides destruction, he revived Megatron into Galvatron, he is very powerful, he is the embodiment of Chaos. I am just saying that igniting the Inferno of Creation can only be topped by a few other feats ( i.e. thinking yourself into existence and thinking into existence the Spark of Creation)

Originally posted by Phoenix_Avatar9
Yea, that's exactly what I mean, necromancers and sorcerers can summon and reanimate the dead but they cannot create, alchemists can build but not create. I never said that Unicron cannot do anything besides destruction, he revived Megatron into Galvatron, he is very powerful, he is the embodiment of Chaos. I am just saying that igniting the Inferno of Creation can only be topped by a few other feats ( i.e. thinking yourself into existence and thinking into existence the Spark of Creation)
Yes but the origins of Unicron aren't clear infact as far as anybody knows he did make himself no one can argue against it. Besides if you think about it the Phoenix was given her power from being a part of TOAA so she hasn't even done that herself. Also as far as anyboby knows Phoenixs power could only be to make creation as TOAA commands. As far as we know she has no power outside of creation. Unicron takes orders from no one. Of course though Unicron destroyed creation once was about to destroy it again and was only stopped beacuse of self sacrifice and he did fight the full power of creation incarnete and was winning. So if you take Phoenix out of Marvel Universe she doesn't have the power of TOAA anymore. So in Unicron's universe it would at best be creation at worst would be a powerless enitity. Now you say Unicron can not compete in feats yet he probably made himself, destroyed creation which is Phoenix's only real boast of power, survuved without it meaning he is beyond it, has taken something and revived it showing that is not outside of his power to create.
Now instead of telling me what Phoenix's powers are again dispute the facts I have given and tell me they are not comparable and explain why they're not.

In the Dorling Kinderlsey transformers encyclopedia, Primus and Unicron were born from the same blob of incoherent concepts, Order and Chaos like the myth of yin-yang and Pan-Ku, I have to find it and post it later it's in a moving box. but that's what I remember, and I think that amputating and fixing injured universes is a big feat in my belief

Originally posted by Phoenix_Avatar9
In the Dorling Kinderlsey transformers encyclopedia, Primus and Unicron were born from the same blob of incoherent concepts, Order and Chaos like the myth of yin-yang and Pan-Ku, I have to find it and post it later it's in a moving box. but that's what I remember, and I think that amputating and fixing injured universes is a big feat in my belief
Where did you get that Unicron and Primus born like that. First off Unicron was just there is origin is never given in great detail. But Creation is there which Unicron destroys but misses a few molecules which become the next Creation. Primus is born out of this creation and given it's full power to defend itself from Unicron but Primus is loosing and is no match for Unicron he only stops him by making the Ultimate sacrifice.
Now of course Phoenix can do those things to Universe's she was given the power to create those Universes and since she is part of it and the absolute authority there then of course she has power over it.
But you still haven't disputed my facts which asked that's what i want i want you to dispute what i gave and give me reasons why they don't stack up with Phoenix. Don't tell me anymore about her powers just break my arguement.

Well, if the evidence in the encyclopedia doesn't disprove this, then I say that as no one can say that he didn't make himself, no one can say that he really did. How would he have done it? Beings don't usually make themselves. I don't know of any story in any religion or culture where people just exist. They always come from somwhere. They certainly don't "make" themselves.


This is illogical and irrelevant. Every being in creation exists in some capacity with power related to what they are. Since I don't buy that Unicron created himself, then his power was obviously granted to him by something/someone else, or derived from some other source, just like everyone else.


What do you mean? What do you define as creation? If anything exists, there is creation. If nothing exists, there is creation. I'm talking about beyond time and space. Oblivion is an aspect of creation. Death is an aspect of creation. There really is no outside of creation, unless one is speaking of that absolute many refer to as God.


Most battles take place in a neutral location between characters with their full powers at their disposal, unless stated otherwise. There is nothing in the initial post to contradict this. I don't see why Phoenix would have all of her power anyway, seeing as how it's her power. She's not like the Specter, where her power varies according to how much she's given on any particular occasion. She always has all of her power.


That can never happen, because as long as life exists, Phoenix exists.

First that logic is true for the Marvel universe where there is a supreme being in the Transformer Universe there is no supreme being that makes everything.
Also your statement that nothing can exist outside of creation is wrong because Unicron was separate from creation and destroyed it which means he is beyond it.
If they don't make themselves then How is TOAA here was he just here even if so that is what i was getting at. Unicron just was whether he made himself or not doesn't matter in the Transformer Universe there has never been anything before him or that made him.
When I said that you take Phoenix away from universe and place her in Unicron's world i was not trying to say that is where the battle was taking place but rather has an argument where people say since Phoenix is second only to TOAA she wins. In the realm of Unicron there is no such thing as TOAA or the one God the concept doesn't exist. So in it Phoenix wouldn't be the same and beneath Unicron there. I believe that when they are fighting full potential they are around the same in a neutral setting.
Now for a quote of yours:
"What do you mean? What do you define as creation? If anything exists, there is creation. If nothing exists, there is creation. I'm talking about beyond time and space. Oblivion is an aspect of creation. Death is an aspect of creation. There really is no outside of creation, unless one is speaking of that absolute many refer to as God."
This argument is voided because in his universe Unicron has already existed outside of creation so he is beyond it's concept. I never liked the idea but in Unicron's universe that is fact.
But I still have yet to argue my points as to whether or not they're comparable and haven't given me a reason for it.

Sorry about the double posting my computer seems to have played a dirty trick on me last night, I loaded the pic, then my computer was like, look its not there better reupload it, and then i did and it was like, nope its still not there, and then I did it again and then my computer was like HAHA Its all really up here moron you look dumb as hell.

It's ok man it happens so how you think I'm doing in this debate.

Originally posted by newjak86
Where did you get that Unicron and Primus born like that. First off Unicron was just there is origin is never given in great detail.

In the Dorling Kinderlsey Transformer encyclopedia, It wasnt in great detail but there was some information, like that Cybertron is Primus and Primus and Unicron are twins, they each existed in Astral Forms before they took on the forms of planets.

which version does it state it is UK or American that can make a big difference.

Read my post again. I never said nothing can exist outside of creation. I merely asked for a definition of creation.


If it doesn't matter, why mention it?


It's her power, not her standing in the cosmic hierarchy that is at issue here. Peopel say that her power is second to TOAA to show the level and range of power that she has. The title/position in and of itself means nothing. It's the power that matters. Phoenix creates and destroys everything in existence at some point or another. The only other being on that level is the LT, and he only arbitrates and destroys. If anything Unicron might be comparable to the destruction aspect of the LT but nothing else.


Once again, what do you define as creation? Most people think of creation as the physical plane of existence. Some consider the psychic, astral and physical planes as well. What definition are you working with?

It doesn't matter how i define creation because in Unicron's relam it was a seperate entity from him so he can exist outside of it.
Also yes it does matter what universe they are in. In Marvel she is second only to TOAA in Unicron's comic she would be nothing more than creation so she would be beneath him. That's what I'm saying.
She creates and destroys creation but she creates it first meaning that since she is it's creator than she probably can destroy it easier than anything else.

Your qoute:
(Unicron just was whether he made himself or not doesn't matter in the Transformer Universe there has never been anything before him or that made him.)

(If it doesn't matter, why mention it?)
Because you brought it up saying that there had to be something before Unicron otherwise he should be the supreme creater which isn't true as nothing has been proven to come before him or create him.

Originally posted by newjak86
which version does it state it is UK or American that can make a big difference.

US, I bought it in Borders, I am trying to look for it but it's in my other house, we're still moving, sry, I'll post it as soon as I can.

Originally posted by Phoenix_Avatar9
US, I bought it in Borders, I am trying to look for it but it's in my other house, we're still moving, sry, I'll post it as soon as I can.
I would like to see that because i did some research of my own and the story I've been saying checked out in fact Unicron was stronger than I remembered.

Of course it matters how it's defined. If one considers creation to be purely physical, then one excludes the magical realms, astral realms, etc. How can you use a point in an discussion and refuse to provide a definition for it? How is creation defined in Transformers?

Creation is defines as it would be in Marvel(Sapce Time Life all of that) except that it isn't the work of a an all powerful being but is it's own being. But as i know of only Unicron has existed outside of it. That is about the best defention I can give.

Well, this debate seems to be going around in circles, but I think its pretty interesting. I dont think Pheonix could contend with Unicron. Unicron, in his weakened robotic form, was orson wells. Orson Wells can take phonic easily. Also, he had the power to turn megatron into Leonard Nemoy. THAT is impressive. Has Pheonix turned anyone into a star trek castmember lately? Didnt think so.

Frankly, Im not impressed with Pheonix, and I think all of her godlike powers are just a work. If she had godlike abilities, then she would be doing alot more cooler stuff than flying around on fire and shooting fire like a sexy human torch. She has limits.

Im gonna use an old Philospophy argument. If Pheonix is the end all be all of creation, and she is a good guy, then why do badguys exist. Why doesnt she just take a late night, and fly around the universe wiping out every super being from existance? She cant, because while she like to talk in fancy poetry about how she is the force of creation, all Ive really seen her do is fly around and shoot fire. Why doesnt she just wink whoever she has beefs with out of existance? I dont think she can.

Now the argument has convinced me that Unicron would win out, because I think its been proven to me at least that Primus and Pheonix are compirable. The fact that Primus and Unicron are like yin and yang helps the fact, because if Primus is ultimate creation, and unicron is ultimate destruction, and Unicron is beats the crap out of Primus and kills him, making him have to self sacrifice himself, then I think Unicron can take Pheonix easily. Unicron ate EVERYTHING. All energy, all matter. Anything pheonix could throw at him, who is the say he just wont open his mouth and consume it. And dont hide behind "Creation is more powerful than destruction" because this is a fight. What fight have you ever seen that someone has won by creating things? If me and you got into a fight, I had the power to kill 1000s of people, and you had the power to create them, I would kill everything you created and you would sit their looking at me with a look on your face saying "But Im the pheonix! I have a MOVIE coming out!! You cant beat me! Im gonna go write a nasty letter to your editor!"

Unicron fears the power of life, but it seems only in a villian plot device sort of way. He doesnt fear it because it easily kills him, he fears it because it hurts, and he hasnt been around for unknown amount of time to run the risk of maybe getting beat.

And nobody can really argue that Pheonix power = matrix power. I havnt brushed up on comic lore, but in the film the matrix was like a device that a transformer had (making the leader something something PRIME) and used like a bomb or something. Pheonix would have to be able to change into a transformer to use it. Which goes back to, if she is so powerful, why cant she change into a car.

If she could change into a car, then she could change the composition of her body. But like I said, she just flies around on fire like a sexy human torch. She doesnt even use her powers to give her snazzy clothes or bigger boobs or anything. She just flies around on fire talking about how she has "telekinitic godhood." Unless Unicron is weak to the power of egotrip, then he would just eat her up like o so many fishsticks.

Actually the Matrix isn't just a bomb it is all the power of creation the being put into one object so Creation has some kinda of defence against Unicron.

Yes, I know, but it was used like a bomb, at least in the movie.

In the comics it is to basically it is all the enegies of Creation being used at once.

In the comic, the matrix was the essence of primus.
People with skill (optimus prime) were able to create life with it (an ability he rarely used for some reason)
Shockwave took prime and forced him to create the constructicons with just primes head. He didnt have the true matrix for some reason (cant remember) so at some point...shockwave was looking for the true matrix.

In the movie, the matrix is just the collective of all knowledge and a powerful weapon..but we are never taught to what extent.

Both versions choose their owners.

Unicron can probably transform into an alternate form the while Phoenix can probably transform into a car, though Unicron is the consumer of everything he does not have have the control of matter, energy, time, and space at his disposal, though he can seemingly construct stuff through beams of energy. If Jean disassembles Unicron and then battles his conciousness on the astral plane, that might be a more interesting battle, since that was unicron's first existence, an astral life form, though she can alter her clothing like <snap> and make bigger boobs, she probably doesn't want to, ( she wouldn't want to be weighed down while flying) Just like if someone has the ability to do origami, it doesnt mean the want to

Thats the Unicron I've been argueing not the Robot but the Unicron at his strongest.
The boobs part was funny.

yea lol, I mean no one has delved into that fact that Unicron has an astral form, that adds so many facets to this battle. His mental powers were never really shown to their full extent so how would we know If what most of what these people are talking about is actually Unicron's full power, ha, BOOBS

actually his Astral form was the same in the begining as his other one. He only exists as a robot now because he was tricked into a planet and was trapped even though he was winning Primus then sacrificed himself.
Yeah though many Phoenix people thought that Unicron had no chance right Phoenix Avatar9lol

Hey newjak, I didn't find the book but i went onto wikipedia and found this

Here, elements of the Fleer and Botcon stories are added and more new information is created to create another new origin for Primus and Unicron. The book again presents Primus and Unicron as brother heralds, existing as metal planetoids, here created by "The One", rather than the Allspark, sent into the new universe to explore. When Unicron fell to evil, he adapted his body to transform into a robot mode, and Primus was given the power to do so as well by the Allspark, but Primus preferred to remain in planet mode, connected to the universe on a planetary level. To operate his planetary-mode defenses and weapons, he created the first 13 Transformers, but one of them turned on the remaining twelve and sided with Unicron. In the final battle, Unicron and the traitor - The Fallen - were sucked through a black hole into another dimension. Subsequently, Primus settled his planet mode into orbit around Alpha Centauri, and bore the entire race of Transformers. Primus is alleged to have seeded many worlds across the multiverse (an explanation for his existence in assorted continuities), while Unicron is considered to be one singular being, who travels from universe to universe. While not a repellent concept, the story requires the adjustment of and dismissal of some facts from earlier stories (particularly the G1 cartoon) to make it universally correct.

I think that is where most of the confusion came from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primus_(Transformers) hope that helps, Oh, what would I do without my beloved wikipedia <hug>

But it says Fleer and Botcon stories are added and more new information is created to create another new origin for Primus and Unicron. Meaning that this is a new story and not the orginal. The original is more like this:
Unicron was a "fallen god" possessed of "power beyond measure," whose main drive was his near-insatiable hunger. Feeding on entire star systems, he continued his task unhindered until he eventually succeeded in devouring the entire universe. At this point, he fell into a sleep, his hunger finally appeased.

However, a single fragment of that universe was able to escape the destruction, and, being sentient, this fragment was able to use Unicron's sleep to its advantage. During this time, it rebuilt the universe without waking Unicron, and transformed its sentient core into a protector for the new universe: Primus. Unicron eventually woke and immediately began destroying the universe again. Primus fought back, but it became clear that brute force was insufficient against him. Primus then took the battle into the astral plain, but Unicron overwhelmed him there as well. In an act of desperation, Primus suddenly left the astral plain with Unicron in close pursuit. Intent as he was on destroying Primus, Unicron didn't realize that he was being led into a trap. As a result of the act, both minds were trapped inside planetoids.

Soon, Unicron realized that he could psionically shape the metallic mass of the planet he occupied. In time, he changed it into a planet with the following capabilities: devouring whole planets and processing them into energy, independent space flight, nonlinear timestream access, psionic manipulation of metallic masses in the immediate vicinity (down to an atomic level), and transformation into a humanoid mode. Once able to do so, he again journeyed the universe devouring everything in his way.

Meanwhile, Primus had converted his own planet into Cybertron, on which he created the Transformers, intended to be the universe's last line of defense against Unicron. He then allowed them to evolve naturally while he shut himself down to avoid detection from Unicron.
There is never mention of the Allspark ever in the orginal story.
This could just be another stroy tothe newer transformers like trnasmorfers energon which have gotten a lot more religious like over the years. I still go by the orginal. Altough I do feel that the newer one is better since it is a view I think transformers should have been like all along.

I hate continuity and retcon issues! , they're soo confusing, especially if u hav threads like these

I know especially when your argueing over different cosmic beings that are considered possibly the most powerfull creatures in thier respective universes.

I know, It's like the football, soccer, and basketball captains are painting a mural, whose is the best? 1. uneven playing fields 2. different scales make it hard to compare. I just wanna adopt a Cambodian child named Maddox and call it a day

You do that I hope I at least made you think that the possibility of Phoenix being beaten was an option

Originally posted by newjak86
You do that I hope I at least made you think that the possibility of Phoenix being beaten was an option

You've done well Newjak... worked damn hard in this thread...


Unicrons feat is one I've never seen in a comic. He killed everything...including every other being/god/essence and existed in nearly pure nothingness.

I've never seen any other being do that.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
You've done well Newjak... worked damn hard in this thread...


Unicrons feat is one I've never seen in a comic. He killed everything...including every other being/god/essence and existed in nearly pure nothingness.

I've never seen any other being do that.

Its something that Phoenix does all the time as part of the cycle of creation.

Thank you sir for awhile there i thought I was fighting a loosing battle but i never lost faith.
Anyway yeah I did work hard trying to hold the fort so do I get a promotion.
Oh man when I first saw that someone replied to this thread i was like Galatic Storm again time to take action again but I'm glad it was just you.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its something that Phoenix does all the time as part of the cycle of creation.
Correction she still exists because of TOAA without him she would cease to be Unicron did it without anyone.

Wait a minute. Unicron as stated by yourself devoured the entire universe. Thats different to devouring creation im afraid.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its something that Phoenix does all the time as part of the cycle of creation.

Does she kill LT and all the other cosmics while doing so?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Wait a minute. Unicron as stated by yourself devoured the entire universe. Thats different to devouring creation im afraid.
In Unicron's world that equals Creation there are no parallel univeres there is only the one. And the cycle continues

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Does she kill LT and all the other cosmics while doing so?

Basically, as a part of the natural cycle of creation, humanity evolves to a point of ultimate mutation(phoenix). When this happens all the abstracts are replaced by by these higher beings and humanity and creation is destroyed and these beings dissolved into the white hot room. Phoenix then begins the cycle of creation again.

Originally posted by newjak86
Thank you sir for awhile there i thought I was fighting a loosing battle but i never lost faith.
Anyway yeah I did work hard trying to hold the fort so do I get a promotion.
Oh man when I first saw that someone replied to this thread i was like Galatic Storm again time to take action again but I'm glad it was just you.

I enjoy civil threads like this. I learned, a couple of things about phoenix, Galac learned some things about unicron. Others learned about both.

You've made good points across the board, and I can tell you've read the comic. I was on 33rd street (next to the empire state building) yesterday and found a hardcover collection of the OG transformers series...flipped through it to make sure I remembered my facts correctly and most of what you have said is correct.

Originally posted by newjak86
In Unicron's world that equals Creation there are no parallel univeres there is only the one. And the cycle continues

Does it say there is only one or is that what you're assumming? What company makes these comics?

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
I enjoy civil threads like this. I learned, a couple of things about phoenix, Galac learned some things about unicron. Others learned about both.

You've made good points across the board, and I can tell you've read the comic. I was on 33rd street (next to the empire state building) yesterday and found a hardcover collection of the OG transformers series...flipped through it to make sure I remembered my facts correctly and most of what you have said is correct.
Yeah when I was first argueing I was going by memeory so some of what i said earlier like page two or three was wrong but once I did some research and jogged my memory I realized Unicron was stronger than I remembered him.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Basically, as a part of the natural cycle of creation, humanity evolves to a point of ultimate mutation(phoenix). When this happens all the abstracts are replaced by by these higher beings and humanity and creation is destroyed and these beings dissolved into the white hot room. Phoenix then begins the cycle of creation again.

Interesting, but in that theory wouldnt that mean that something (presence) was still above her?

In unicrons void..there was nothing. The presence was born out of his own carelessness leaving a bare sentient trace of reality. This in turn became primus who was one with all creation.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Does it say there is only one or is that what you're assumming? What company makes these comics?

The original series was by Marvel.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Interesting, but in that theory wouldnt that mean that something (presence) was still above her?

In unicrons void..there was nothing. The presence was born out of his own carelessness leaving a bare sentient trace of reality. This in turn became primus who was one with all creation.

TOAA is above Phoenix but thats to be expected because its God lol.

What company makes the comic unicron is in?

Is the Unicron we're talking about from the original series that Marvel made

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
The original series was by Marvel.
Really I forgot that there have been just to many by so many different people now it's unreal who did the UK ones again.

If the series is made by Marvel then its in another reality from the 616 universe. Unicron destroyed a universe leaving nothing behind. Because of this new revelation, while thats powerful, he doesnt compare to phoenix im afraid. Theyre in the same comic book company, he's within her multiverse.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If the series is made by Marvel then its in another reality from the 616 universe. Unicron destroyed a universe leaving nothing behind. Because of this new revelation, while thats powerful, he doesnt compare to phoenix im afraid. Theyre in the same comic book company, he's within her multiverse.
Thats it though I don't know the whole story i doubt it was placed in with the rest of Marvel otherwise you would have had Prime fight thor by now. Plus maybe it was just ran through Marvel in a partnership type deal where certain things had to take place I'm not to certain about it but I will find out somehow.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If the series is made by Marvel then its in another reality from the 616 universe. Unicron destroyed a universe leaving nothing behind. Because of this new revelation, while thats powerful, he doesnt compare to phoenix im afraid. Theyre in the same comic book company, he's within her multiverse.

While Marvel published the Transformers comics..there whole multiverse (yes thre was one...unicron himself proved it) it was totally separate from Marvels due to licensing restrictions.

She would be extremely toned down in their reality similar to the infinity gauntlet in DC's reality.

Hell, I wish they could have actually crossed over... Grimlock vs HULK!!! yea yeaaa!!! lol

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
While Marvel published the Transformers comics..there whole multiverse (yes thre was one...unicron himself proved it) it was totally separate from Marvels due to licensing restrictions.

She would be extremely toned down in their reality similar to the infinity gauntlet in DC's reality.

Hell, I wish they could have actually crossed over... Grimlock vs HULK!!! yea yeaaa!!! lol
I knew it wasn't part of mainstream marvel and that it was due to a partnership agreements. Yeah that would be cool Megatron battling Thanos for control of the universe. Optimus Prime showing his true power to the likes of Thor and Hulk great battles