Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

I personally think Ragnos would rip Revan to tiny pieces, but I'm sure somebody thinks otherwise. So lets settle this.

(P.S.)I don't think Revan could take any of the Ancient Sith: Sadow, Ludo, Nadd, Hord. Revan is a peasant among kings compared to these Sith. The Mandalorians in KOTOR 2 even say Nadd was much worse than Revan and Malak were.

What are you going to settle this with? What evidence do we have of specific deeds Ragnos has done?

*Crickets chirp*

It is implied Ragnos is the more powerful of the two, however, we don't have that knowledge in canon to our disposal. There will never, unless a book/series is done about this, where we will know of the victor of this match.

Granted, I believe that anyone that does not put all their easter eggs into KotOR stock will believe Ragnos is the victor.

The mandalorian line though, seems to be a heavy implication as to the Ancient Sith's and resultingly, Ragnos's, power.

Ok, let me start by saying Illustrious and I have been debating this (pretty well) through PM's and we basically agreed that since we know so little about Ragnos, it's unfair to both to say that one is definitely stronge than the other or not.

Now as for your P.S., everything that's said is not necessarily fact. Anakin says he won't fail his mom again but he did. As for the Mandalorians, really, I can't believe you would even include that. It's a MANDALORIAN (not a Force user) saying that the STORIES say that Nadd was far WORSE (not necessarily more powerful) than Revan and Malak. Now look at where this is coming from, Dxun/Onderon which Nadd took over and obviously the stories there would say Nadd was terrible while stories from almost any other planet would not say he was that bad.

i agree with emperor and illustrious im getting angry of people saying ragnos is the most powerful sith ever and can kill anyone when they have no proof. And then they say ragnos's rule went unchallenged that barely says he was powerful that just implies it. I hate these kind of threads because I cant say who would win because of absence of evidence.

What has Ragnos accomplished? Yea that's what I thought.

Do we know anything about his power? Except for his spirit getting owned by a padawan we know nothing.

I'm getting really sick of people saying Ragnos is the most powerful when we have absolutley no proof supporting it at all, we know nothing about his power or any great accomplishments of his, all we know is that some sith were afraid of him but what does that tell us? how can we know they're fear was justified? For all we know he used fear or another sith power to make them afraid of him. Same applies to the other ancient sith, Tulak was the best duelist of his time and had the best form does that make him the overall best duelist of the sith, he might be he might not be all we know is that his form was the best. Sadow and people could throw stars, how would that make them good in a duel? How do we know that they had powers beyond telekenisis? Lord Revan had many more sources as well as teachings from these very sith and he learned all of it. Until we know more about these sith we shouldn't assume they're more powerful than anyone else as we have no proof supporting that there's no logic behind such an assumption it's not even an educated guess merely a guess at best so please until we know more about these sith lords don't be a noob and say they are better then anyone after them or the best sith because if you do you're just making stuff up and you don't know what you're talking about which makes you no better then supershadow.

Actually Marka Ragnos didn't lose to a padawan, he just gave Tavion a Force increase really. Here let me explain...

(Source: Wikipedia)

"Approximately four thousand years after the war of Exar Kun, Marka Ragnos's spirit once again returned from beyond the grave, this time summoned by a Sith cult known as the Disciples of Ragnos whose leader was Tavion, Desann's student. Though this cult was eventually defeated with Jaden Korr defeating Tavion, Ragnos's ghost escaped back to his tomb on Korriban, where he remains with the rest of the ancient Dark Lords, waiting to arise and threaten the galaxy again."

Marka didn't get owned by a padawan, he didn't get owned at all...anyway if memory serves right Jaden Korr was a Jedi Knight at the time. So with the little information that we have we can't decide the victor clearly.

Now about the Mandilorians saying Freedon Nadd was much worst, this could have been, because also most of the time quotes from people of KOTOR and KOTOR II games are somtimes used in Revan's favor, no matter who it is, so when some other Sith gets a quote in his favor, we have to honor it the same as we would a quote for Revan...If you use quotes to prove your point that is.

Wikipedia doesn't know all, Ragnos possesed Tavion and using his body and a sith sword still got pwned. As for the quote he said worse not more powerful worse simply means more evil.

Ragnos' ghost was inside Tavion...and only gave Tavion a Force increase and of course its not going to be his true potential either, because we know spirits grow weaker than the organic form. So what we saw was not Ragnos, but only a shadow of what he once was.

yes but even then the shadow of exar kun simultainiously force choked 12 people and ripped luke's spirit from his body, even if you're right which you probably are that just leaves us with absolutley positively nothing on Ragnos

True...we don't know enough about Ragnos to make a clear choice of who the victor would be. Not even Luke Skywalker had any information on him in the JA game, so we can't really say other than run for the hills, becasue it might get nasty.

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
What has Ragnos accomplished? Yea that's what I thought.

Do we know anything about his power? Except for his spirit getting owned by a padawan we know nothing.

I'm getting really sick of people saying Ragnos is the most powerful when we have absolutley no proof supporting it at all, we know nothing about his power or any great accomplishments of his, all we know is that some sith were afraid of him but what does that tell us? how can we know they're fear was justified? For all we know he used fear or another sith power to make them afraid of him. Same applies to the other ancient sith, Tulak was the best duelist of his time and had the best form does that make him the overall best duelist of the sith, he might be he might not be all we know is that his form was the best. Sadow and people could throw stars, how would that make them good in a duel? How do we know that they had powers beyond telekenisis? Lord Revan had many more sources as well as teachings from these very sith and he learned all of it. Until we know more about these sith we shouldn't assume they're more powerful than anyone else as we have no proof supporting that there's no logic behind such an assumption it's not even an educated guess merely a guess at best so please until we know more about these sith lords don't be a noob and say they are better then anyone after them or the best sith because if you do you're just making stuff up and you don't know what you're talking about which makes you no better then supershadow.


exactly my thoughts frobo

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
yes but even then the shadow of exar kun simultainiously force choked 12 people and ripped luke's spirit from his body, even if you're right which you probably are that just leaves us with absolutley positively nothing on Ragnos

Exar Kun absorbed the power of an entire race before he died. Ragnos did not.

Oh and btw, apparently there were civil wars going on against Ragnos, so the Sith did fight him but they stood no chance and always lost. Ragnos liked it that way because they wouldn't attack the republic.

Now everybody always says the ancient are more powerful then the new one's, Kreia, Mandelorians. So it could have a very good basis of truth. And once again Sith do not step down because they like somebody. They want there leaders dead especially a half blood like Marka Ragnos. Even if he would have used a gigantic fear thing on all of them he would be insanely powerful to do that.

So whats the other option? Them actually being scared for a reason, seeing as he probably didn't have a weapon that could kill every Sith in one second I'm just going to have to assume they were scared because he was so damn powerful. So he was really powerful.

More powerful then any other Sith and Jedi? IMO yes, do I know for sure? No.

I agree with Fishy on this one. While I don't have concrete evidence to say Ragnos is definately the best, I believe he is simply because of his reputation. Or to put it another way; if I had to bet on him and someone else in a fight, I'd bet on him. Why? Let me tell you...

Marka Ragnos ruled a Sith planet for a century and then some. With the exceptions of Freedan Nadd (Who took control of Onderon) and Sidious (who reigned for about thirty years over a nonSith Republic) no Sith has ruled for any reasonable amount of time, except to be overthrown or destroyed in an uprising. Now, Ragnos not only ruled for an amazing amount of time and died a NATURAL death in his own bed, unmolested by his scheming and hateful followers, but he did so over a totally Sith planet. The importance of this? Ragnos was SMART enough to play one side against the other to maintain his reign and keep his followers onplanet, he was STRONG enough to defend his reign, and he was POWERFUL enough that even on his deathbed, greats such as Ludo Kressh and Naga Sadow would not so much as attempt to destroy him. They lived in fear, these followers whose Sith magics are the stuff of legends.

I don't know, maybe that's enough for me. It is a conditional belief: If all that is true, then Ragnos must have been the baddest, biggest fish in the Sith pond. And that makes himthe darkside equivalent to NJO Luke, as far as I am concerned. Also, it speaks for Exar Kun's ability that he was picked by Ragnos himself to be the dark lord in what Ragnos predicted was the Golden Age of the Sith. (But on a side note, wasn't there an amulet that aided Kun's powers?)

Anyways, back on topic... A couple of you despise Ragnos and his reputation that has grown on this board. Mkay. Fine. You wish to disprove it? Please try. But just keep in mind- Just as one side can't say for certain he was stronger, the other can't prove he was weaker. We remain in stasis until some official source comes to break the tie-breaker.

Well said.

I completely agree with Janus on this, and I'm pretty sure Kun didn't have an amulet to make him stronger, the amulet he had woke up Ragnos when put together with Qel Doma's, I'm pretty sure he didn't gain any power from it. I could be wrong however.

Thank you, Windu.

And HV, I only vaguely recall the amulet at all. I couldn't say what it did really.

Well when KOTOR 3 comes out, if Revan defeated the Ancient Sith which one would be Ragnos then I would drop this arguement, but for now if you lock Ragnos and Revan in a room Revan's tactics won't save him from the beating Ragnos would give him. The pictures of Ragnos just look like evil. When I think of Sith I think of Ragnos.

Me too, actually. Sith brings in mine to me the ancient ones, namely Sadow, Kressh, and Ragnos, with their almost bestial looks.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Me too, actually. Sith brings in mine to me the ancient ones, namely Sadow, Kressh, and Ragnos, with their almost bestial looks.


notworthyI agree, and Ragnos looks like the worst and the leader, after his death the Sith empire was never the same again.

Yeah, it kinda went downhill without a strong, smart leader who lived forever and didn't have to fight the Republic.

Originally posted by Apex512
Well when KOTOR 3 comes out, if Revan defeated the Ancient Sith which one would be Ragnos then I would drop this arguement, but for now if you lock Ragnos and Revan in a room Revan's tactics won't save him from the beating Ragnos would give him. The pictures of Ragnos just look like evil. When I think of Sith I think of Ragnos.

If Revan would beat Ragnos it would not surprise me, seeing as Ragnos has been dead for more then a thousands years. But I don't see that happening anyways..

What really happens is Revan goes out into uncharted space and is conquered by a roving band of Jawas!

No seriously, if the Vong are the main enemy in KOTOR III, I will be pissed. So let's just hope that Ragnos or his bastard step child is the badguy.

If the vong are the enemy I will burn Obsidian to the ground...

Or worse, hybrid Vong/Sith. I will cry as I napalm their headquarters

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
I agree with Fishy on this one. While I don't have concrete evidence to say Ragnos is definately the best, I believe he is simply because of his reputation. Or to put it another way; if I had to bet on him and someone else in a fight, I'd bet on him. Why? Let me tell you...

Marka Ragnos ruled a Sith planet for a century and then some. With the exceptions of Freedan Nadd (Who took control of Onderon) and Sidious (who reigned for about thirty years over a nonSith Republic) no Sith has ruled for any reasonable amount of time, except to be overthrown or destroyed in an uprising. Now, Ragnos not only ruled for an amazing amount of time and died a NATURAL death in his own bed, unmolested by his scheming and hateful followers, but he did so over a totally Sith planet. The importance of this? Ragnos was SMART enough to play one side against the other to maintain his reign and keep his followers onplanet, he was STRONG enough to defend his reign, and he was POWERFUL enough that even on his deathbed, greats such as Ludo Kressh and Naga Sadow would not so much as attempt to destroy him. They lived in fear, these followers whose Sith magics are the stuff of legends.

I'll finish this eventually.

I don't know, maybe that's enough for me. It is a conditional belief: If all that is true, then Ragnos must have been the baddest, biggest fish in the Sith pond. And that makes himthe darkside equivalent to NJO Luke, as far as I am concerned. Also, it speaks for Exar Kun's ability that he was picked by Ragnos himself to be the dark lord in what Ragnos predicted was the Golden Age of the Sith. (But on a side note, wasn't there an amulet that aided Kun's powers?)

Anyways, back on topic... A couple of you despise Ragnos and his reputation that has grown on this board. Mkay. Fine. You wish to disprove it? Please try. But just keep in mind- Just as one side can't say for certain he was stronger, the other can't prove he was weaker. We remain in stasis until some official source comes to break the tie-breaker.

First I would like to say well said to Darth Frobo for his first post.

Now, Ragnos ruled for a century, but wasn't Yoda the most powerful Jedi on the council for some 700 years and he's not all powerful. An example that sorta goes with this is the FDR thing. The guy was in office for 12 years and would've been in for 16, the senate was afraid to disagree with him, (much like the palpatine thing too) so that doesn't really strike me as that great. Next, other than this site I have never heard that Sith hate half-breeds or that Ragnos was constantly being challenged.

Now, he did die a natural death which I'll admit is impressive but it again goes with the fear thing, Ragnos would've undoubtedly had some supporters since even his funeral was a big deal so killing Ragnos on his death bed instead of waiting a few weeks would be stupid because that would anger at least some of the Sith into killing you. Now, on the other hand, letting him die naturally would cause some chaos amongst the Sith as to who is the next dark lord so it would be much easier for someone like Sadow to rise to power.

Next, Ragnos ruled only over Korriban while Lord Revan ruled over his entire Sith empire, which spanned most of the galaxy. From Korriban, to Malachor V and beyond. Next, Ragnos stayed on Korriban his whole life so his knowledge would be fairly limited as would his fighting ability to Sith alone.

Ragnos needs no knowledge he is the knowledge.

About that fear thing, can you imagine using a force technique on millions of force users at the same time? Nobody has ever done that except for Nihilus who just had a special power a power Ragnos did not have and if he did it would make Revan and everybody else crap their pants from just watching him. Effective but I doubt it is true.

And he would have probably had a few supporters around, but they would not mind if Ragnos died it was the way things were supposed to go. They knew that. Malak had plenty of suporters so did Revan, that didn't mean they wouldn't betray him in a second for somebody more powerful.

Yoda is not really comparable because Yoda is a Jedi, Jedi don't live to kill the other people and become the leaders.

first go read the any of the strongest sith lords ever threads and you'll find that exar kun revan and ragnos are the three to choose from but we can't really decide

second ragnos couldn't kill revan with eas and same goes for him it would be a good fight to see.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan

(Forgive the JanusEdit, my friend)

First I would like to say well said to Darth Frobo for his first post.

Now, Ragnos ruled for a century, but wasn't Yoda the most powerful Jedi on the council for some 700 years and he's not all powerful. (YOda never had to fight for his position. His peers also didn't have the ability to wage war against the Republic and manipulate the stars themselves with their powers)

An example that sorta goes with this is the FDR thing. The guy was in office for 12 years and would've been in for 16, the senate was afraid to disagree with him, (much like the palpatine thing too) so that doesn't really strike me as that great. (FDR was an elected representative who won through popularity in a country where people don't use dark magics, plot to overthrow everyone and everything, kill indiscriminately, and are true Sith)

Next, other than this site I have never heard that Sith hate half-breeds or that Ragnos was constantly being challenged. (It's out there somewhere. It's been so long I've forgotten where, but I have seen it. I believe it may have been a KOTOR speech even.)


Now, he did die a natural death which I'll admit is impressive but it again goes with the fear thing, Ragnos would've undoubtedly had some supporters since even his funeral was a big deal so killing Ragnos on his death bed instead of waiting a few weeks would be stupid because that would anger at least some of the Sith into killing you. (There are no supporters among Sith. The only reason his funeral was even attended is because A- Sith are notorious for building resting places for their great leaders. I imagine they believe in some sort of resurrection in the future, and B- Ludo and Naga fought for the prominent position at the funeral, meaning it was just an extension of Sith vanity and ritual.)

Now, on the other hand, letting him die naturally would cause some chaos amongst the Sith as to who is the next dark lord so it would be much easier for someone like Sadow to rise to power. (True. Very true. And worth noting.)

Next, Ragnos ruled only over Korriban while Lord Revan ruled over his entire Sith empire, which spanned most of the galaxy. From Korriban, to Malachor V and beyond. Next, Ragnos stayed on Korriban his whole life so his knowledge would be fairly limited as would his fighting ability to Sith alone. (Ragnos specifically would not let his Sith expand beyond their sphere of influence. Actually, I don't believe they were limited just to Korriban. After all, where did the Sith library and academy on Malachor V come from? But back to the point, Ragnos knew the Republic would destroy a chaotic and factioned Sith Empire, and he deliberately kept his followers close to home.)

They need to make a game with Ragnos or something to give us more details.

Also, Naga Sadow had a private fortress on a moon, meaning the Sith holdings were NOT just restricted to Korriban.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Now, Ragnos ruled for a century, but wasn't Yoda the most powerful Jedi on the council for some 700 years and he's not all powerful. An example that sorta goes with this is the FDR thing. The guy was in office for 12 years and would've been in for 16, the senate was afraid to disagree with him, (much like the palpatine thing too) so that doesn't really strike me as that great. Next, other than this site I have never heard that Sith hate half-breeds or that Ragnos was constantly being challenged.

Ragnos was constantly challenged because he made all Sith focus their attacks on him since he didn't want them to attack the Republic. It is said that he killed tons of people in duels or simply assasinated them to keep control over the Sith Empire.
There has to be a reason why people like Sadow didn't even try to attack him and Sith didn't care much about political influence of a person - if the person is getting weak he will get killed. Simple rules.



Sadow had lots of time to kill Ragnos as well as other people had. He was Dark Lord for over a century (as far as I remember 150 years). So they could have killed him YEARS before he was lying on his death bed but still nobody did try at least not in the last years of his reign.



That is simply wrong. The Sith Empire under Ragnos contained serveral worlds and Ragnos being the Dark Lord reigned over the entire Empire. That includes worlds like Malachor V, Ziost and so on. It was not as great as the republic but it is said to be much wealthier. And it was superior in terms of technological developments because of Sith alchemy and Sith magic. Remember that Exar Kun invented things that were able to blow up an entire star system when people in the republic needed 4,000 years longer to develop something that could destroy a single planet or a star system (Death Star and Sun Hammer).

Still all that things don't say anything about Ragnos sheer force powers. There must have been a reason why Sith Lords even feared his spirit. As you can see Exar Kun nearly killing 12 people when he was a spirit and Freedon Nadd did kill King Omnin (I hope that name was right ?) you might just guess what Ragnos could do as a spirit. And there is this statement from Kreia...she said that Ragnos posessed more power than people in KOTOR times can even dream about (that includes Revan).

She did say that, didn't she?

Nice homework there, Nai. You must be well-read as hell, I swear.

Yeah she did say that, but Kreia her word only means something for people here when it agrees with their own.

How many times haven't I seen people fighting against Kreia at one second and accepting her as if it was god himself giving an answer the next.

It's like that for people who can't let go. Notice that while I seem to change opinions a bit more than some people, it's always based on perception of the situation and the information I have to work with, not based on ignorance or bias.

I agree, once you have an opinion and you are proven wrong you should accept that. Only problem is you often think that the other side is wrong and should just shut up already because you already proved them wrong on everything, of course they think the same about you.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Nice homework there, Nai. You must be well-read as hell, I swear.

Ah well...being the student I am (middle age history, german literature) I just spend tons of time reading through books. You get pretty fast with enough practice so I just read through every SW novel / comic available.

Same here, Nai... Only I'm a history major and philosophy minor. I've read all the Clone Wars Del Rey novels inside of two weeks, and then a few more novels outside of that timeframe. But those post ROTJ novels... *Shudder*... I mean, I have a copy of the 2000 year edition Star Wars Encyclopedia I picked up (Which I should have checked the damn date) and it's littered with some pretty stupid EU stuff, like Otherspace (RPG modules), the Vong (Totally removing the light versus darkside element of SW which, IMO is sacreligious) and Triclops, the three eyed son of Palpatine who spawned Ken, the Jedi prince. If you have to reread that last part because you started laughing, don't fret. I did too. So yeah, anything post-ROTJ I view with a skeptical eye.

/rant

And Fishy,you're right as usual. People rarely change, but trends do. If the KOTOR comics make Revan able to move Malachor V around with his pinky finger, we may have a revision around here.

We might but with the attitude against Revan I doubt it still we'll see... At least I have something against Luke now, because of my big old friend GL

Meh, I hate NJO Luke simple because, like I always say, the Dark Empire series and NJo series reads like bullshit fanfiction and totally ruins the atmosphere of the movies. It's a small wonder Lucas could give a shit less about Eu with works like I, Jedi and Splinter of the Mind's Eye. Those books are painful to read if you stop at the cover. And Lucas' main focus of the entire series (Read: light side versus dark) is undermined in these series and it just becomes Star Wars Trek and the Borg Wannabes Who Endanger All. It irks me on some level reserved for midnight wrong calls and slow drivers in the fast lane.

I know, but at least NJO Luke lovers can't quote GL anymore at least not without saying Luke could not be more powerful then Sidious was.

Originally posted by Fishy
I know, but at least NJO Luke lovers can't quote GL anymore at least not without saying Luke could not be more powerful then Sidious was.

They can. But only if the know something about genetics.

Well okay, but according to GL and logical thinking, you have Anakin who could become 200% Sidious. Luke is his son so he would only have half of his dad in him, he would be as powerful as Sidious at max.

Well you look at the NJO books he is far more powerful then Sidious could ever hope to be.

I like things like that, always usefull in a debate against the NJO series who suck anyways.

Originally posted by Fishy
Well okay, but according to GL and logical thinking, you have Anakin who could become 200% Sidious. Luke is his son so he would only have half of his dad in him, he would be as powerful as Sidious at max.


Yeah. You have Anakin being 200 % Sidious (full potential). But according to genetics Luke can posess 50, 75 or even 100 % of Anakins potential and that is the problem. You can simply say that 50 or 100 % won't work (seing that NJO Luke is more powerful than Sidious, having Lucas saying that Anakin would have been the most powerful force user ever). Now that leaves the 75 % or 150 % Sidious.

Than you can throw in the light side / dark side question (Which one is stronger ?), argue that Luke is more powerful because using both sides (to a certain degree), do a few saltos in your thoughts and end up with NJO Luke being the most powerful force user that ever hit the shores of the not existing oceans of Coruscant.

100% his father? Thats impossible.

Dark Side and Light Side there is no stronger side, for a true master. For a noob yeah the Dark Side will be more powerful but that means nothing.

Seeing as a lot of people are more powerful then Sidious we can easily come to the conclusion that 150% Sidious is not all that much, and that is if Luke is lucky and has more dad then mom in him.

And like I said people like Revan, Exar, Malak, Ulic, Tulak, Ragnos, Sadow, Nadd. They would all easily be 150% Sidious and they would all easily be able to match Luke then. GL heavily limits EU if what he says is true, so from now on everytime his word is used it can just piss off at least IMO.

Alright, if Luke is even 100% of Sidious, why did he become the cloned emperor's apprentice? It's because he knew he couldn't win, correct? And when they eventually did fight, it was with the help of Leia that he was able to survive. So he was outmatched by Palpatine there. But later on, in the NJO series, he's got Force powers that make Superman the movie's Rebuilding the Wall of China Vision seem scientific. SO he obviously surpassed Anakin's potential according to some EU authors. And that means they contradicted GL, making NJO Luke.... noncanon.

Wrong... GL and Lucas Arts are not the same thing all the time... They both have different views on somethings, however it makes according to official guidelines Lucas his opinion null and flawed in the EU.

But the official definition of even EU quasi canon is that it doesn't directly contradict GL or his works on the movies. Now, anything GL says in reference to the movies is taken as canon. Also, it adds background information to the movies from a non-EU source, the man himself. So if GL says that Anakin has the potential of double what SIdious is, and Luke genetically can only have so much of his father's potential, NJO Luke is way out of order.

Okay you win.. NJO Luke is false... Yay

lol, DONT GIVE IN!

I pwned the Chosen One prophecy and NJO Luke's Superman-esque feats. Now, on to conquer Yoda....

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Alright, if Luke is even 100% of Sidious, why did he become the cloned emperor's apprentice? It's because he knew he couldn't win, correct? And when they eventually did fight, it was with the help of Leia that he was able to survive. So he was outmatched by Palpatine there. But later on, in the NJO series, he's got Force powers that make Superman the movie's Rebuilding the Wall of China Vision seem scientific. SO he obviously surpassed Anakin's potential according to some EU authors. And that means they contradicted GL, making NJO Luke.... noncanon.

Oh Janus...
Sidious in the Dark Empire comics had this nice crystal that added greatly to his force powers. I mean LOOK at what he does in that comics. And the NJO series is 20 years after Dark Empire meaning Luke was not even close to his full potential during DE times.

I think Revan would win this battle. I know more about Revan than Ragnos and I think that Revan was more powerful in the force and lightsaber. I mean, he didn't get owned by an apprentice. Ok it was Tavions body but she also had his sceptar and sith sword.

revan wasn't as powerful in the force as ragnos and everyone knows more about revan then ragnos infact isnt ajunta paull the only ancient sith we know even less about then ragnos? so ya ragnos no one knows alot abbout him but i'm not too sure who'd win but either way it's not an easy task for either of them.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Ragnos was constantly challenged because he made all Sith focus their attacks on him since he didn't want them to attack the Republic. It is said that he killed tons of people in duels or simply assasinated them to keep control over the Sith Empire.
There has to be a reason why people like Sadow didn't even try to attack him and Sith didn't care much about political influence of a person - if the person is getting weak he will get killed. Simple rules.

Sadow had lots of time to kill Ragnos as well as other people had. He was Dark Lord for over a century (as far as I remember 150 years). So they could have killed him YEARS before he was lying on his death bed but still nobody did try at least not in the last years of his reign.

That is simply wrong. The Sith Empire under Ragnos contained serveral worlds and Ragnos being the Dark Lord reigned over the entire Empire. That includes worlds like Malachor V, Ziost and so on. It was not as great as the republic but it is said to be much wealthier. And it was superior in terms of technological developments because of Sith alchemy and Sith magic. Remember that Exar Kun invented things that were able to blow up an entire star system when people in the republic needed 4,000 years longer to develop something that could destroy a single planet or a star system (Death Star and Sun Hammer).

Still all that things don't say anything about Ragnos sheer force powers. There must have been a reason why Sith Lords even feared his spirit. As you can see Exar Kun nearly killing 12 people when he was a spirit and Freedon Nadd did kill King Omnin (I hope that name was right ?) you might just guess what Ragnos could do as a spirit. And there is this statement from Kreia...she said that Ragnos posessed more power than people in KOTOR times can even dream about (that includes Revan).

Ok, good enough. I really don't have much else to add except that people rarely attacked other dark lords of the Sith, Revan, Malak, Kun, Palpatine, Vader, were never (or very rarely) fought to try and assume their rank so I don't think Ragnos fought as much as what people think. Next, where does it say that Ragnos made all of the Sith fight him instead of the Republic? Why would he do that if his empire and him are so powerful? Look at Revan or Kun. Revan took 1/3 of the Republic forces, came back a year later and dominated the war against the Republic (with some help from the Star Forge) but Kun didn't do a bad job, heck, neither did Sadow. So was Ragnos lazy, stupid, afraid, or what?

Next, we saw what Ragnos did as a spirit. His spirit was charged full with Force energy, took over Tavion's body (who wasn't too shabby) had a sith sword and still lost to a jedi knight (granted a powerful one).

And last but definitely not least, I have never heard Kreia say that remark about Ragnos and I would definitely like to know when she says it.

Actually Sith apprentices only fought there masters when they fought they were more powerful. Nobody was more powerful then Ragnos obviously.

Well I'm saying they probably knew they weren't strong enough and didn't fight him. Therefore, Ragnos wouldn't be constantly fighting and would slowly get weaker. But you know how much I hate it when people say characters we know one or two things about are all powerful and can never be beaten etc. Ragnos does have more things going for him then others though but IMO not enough. Like Janus said, it's really unfair to both to say that either is stronger at this point.

It is, but well you just have to go by what you have and that with Ragnos sounds more impressive. Is it? I don't know it just sounds more impressive. Really we can't even make a good educated guess on the winner just a mild guess but thats what this thread is asking for. It doesn't really call for a debate

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
And last but definitely not least, I have never heard Kreia say that remark about Ragnos and I would definitely like to know when she says it.

She dropped that line when the Exile comes to Marka Ragnos tomb on Korriban - as far as I remember.

I've read that quote from GL somewhere about Anakin's power in reference to Sidious somewhere, but don't remember where. Could someone set me up a link on this thread? Because I think you guys might have read it wrong.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
She dropped that line when the Exile comes to Marka Ragnos tomb on Korriban - as far as I remember.

Nai is right, she says it at Marka Ragnos his tomb.

Well sort of from what I remember she says he is by far the greatest Sith burried on Korriban. Then when you reach other Tombs she says they make you and Revan and Exar Kun and well everybody else look like children.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
She dropped that line when the Exile comes to Marka Ragnos tomb on Korriban - as far as I remember.

I replayed that part just in case I missed it the other 4 times I played it. I didn't. That line is NOT in there at all. She does say Ragnos possessed tremendous physical strength and in the Force but so does Revan. She didn't say anything close to him being the greatest or most powerful sith.

Curiously she also said he stayed in power for a century, using his cunning to turn his enemies against each other. Nothing about making them fight him and lose or anything like that.

I see Ragnos as sidious on steroids, cunning and not willing to fight for no reason sith have been manipulitive all throughout SW history chances are so was ragnos. His being unopposed by powerful sith is the best we have on him but even then there are plenty of force powers he could of used to effect the siths minds or even without using the force look how perfectly sidious set up all the jedi and the republic. Being smarter then your opponents doesn't necessarily mean you're more powerful, if fear is the only reason we have supporting him it's pretty crappy considering that we don't even know if that fear was justified or the result of force powers. You simply cannot compare someone we know basically nothing about to Revan. Let this thread die.

I agree. Let this thread die. (err, I guess I'm not helping now am I?)

I think we should send a petition signed by everyone insterested, to dark horse or something so they make stories about ragno's times. I believe that reigning unchallanged says everything because we know how sith are. if he wasn't that powerful he would have been killed by some other sith craving the throne

Originally posted by Darth_Rankkor
I think we should send a petition signed by everyone insterested, to dark horse or something so they make stories about ragno's times. I believe that reigning unchallanged says everything because we know how sith are. if he wasn't that powerful he would have been killed by some other sith craving the throne

He turned his enemies against each other like I just said. Besides, none of the Sith, Jedi, or anyone else for that matter ever defeated Revan.

But I do agree with the petition thing.

I'm willing to sign such a petition please look at the Revan vs. grievous thread for a piece of noob bashing art.