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The Trinity of Dark and the Trinity of Light . . . which will triumph?

Note that there is no Luke or Revan.

well done thank good as much as i like them two there everywere anyway yoda takes sion mace takes the exile and obi wan keeps up with traya until the the others help

Kreia attacks Yoda with such power immediately that he would either die right away, which would not surprise me. If she can surprise him that is, if not then it would be an awesome battle of the force where Kreia would eventually overwelm Yoda.

The Exile would attack Mace Windu which would be a nice fight to see but the Exile simply has more experience and a more powerful command of the force, he drew from others but he kept that when he became whole again. The Exile would eventually take Mace.

Sion would attack Obi Wan, and IMO take him. Sion is a Sith Lord with some power he is not as great as others but surely he could take out somebody like Obi Wan, afterall he did command a few powerful Sith Lords.

In the end the Sith would win, after a really hard fight for all of them.

i may be wrong but isnt sion invincible obi wan has no chance in this case

Well yeah but thats just boring so that doesn't count.

like i have decided not to make nihilus have the force eating power in all my duels with him in from now on

That's why I replaced him with The Exile. And I think Kenobi could hold for a bit against Sion, and Mace against The Exile. Yoda could probably beat Kreia, but her Force powers would hurt, if not mortally wound him.

Yoda and Kreia will do some force duel without any of them being able to defeat the other. Then they start a lightsaber duel and Yoda will defeat Kreia. Keep in mind that Kreia (from the game) is only able to use forms I, II and III so she has almost no experience with Yodas form, no experience with Yodas species and no experience against somebody as powerful as Yoda.

Mace will take the Exile. Come on. At the age in which the Exile is just about to become a Jedi Knight, Mace Windu is already near Council level. In terms of lightsaber combat Mace is the superior swordsman and they both have an equal amount of frontline experience (Exile 3 years in the Mandalorian wars, Mace 3 years in the clone wars). And Mace will use a fighting style that the Exile doesn't know about while Mace knows everything the Exile can do.

Obi-Wan will fend Sion till Yoda or Mace is coming to help him. Yoda + Obi-Wan or Mace + Obi-Wan is too much for Sion.

Jedi win.

Kreia has no experience against people like Yoda? She probably met Exar Kun one day, or at least heard of him. People like Yoda were alive then, she sure as hell knew Vandar probably once faced him in combat training or otherwise. She would know how to fight people like that, and no experience against somebody as powerful as Yoda? The exile wasn't weak, not to mention she trained Revan for a long time of his life and once met him again during or after the Mandelorian wars.

She would know a lot about him, and he has power. She would just use her own power to overwelm Yoda, he was struggling with Sidious his lightning imagine what somebody like Kreia could do to him.

Mace vs the Exile, Mace seems more logical but not if you look at who the Exile defeated and then Mace, I think the Exile is way better. And fighting a bunch of droids or a bunch of Mandelorians? There is a huge difference between the two. The Exile was constantly fighting Jedi killing oponents, what did Mace face besides a few droids and GG...

Sion well he will have help instead of Obi.

I think Yoda could beat Traya, I mean the Exile did it. Anywho, I do think it would be close though.

Exile would beat Mace after a while.

Obi would probably kill Sion though this is tough.

Either Yoda kills Sion and then the Exile or Yoda and Obi kill the Exile IMO so Jedi win but not by much.

Just because you can defeat a monkey and that same monkey can defeat Bruce Lee does not mean you can also defeat Bruce Lee.

Kreia against the Exile (if she was really defeated that is) fought in a lightsaber duel with only minimal force impact. Against Yoda she would use the force all the time and Yoda could not hold against that IMO.

Originally posted by Fishy
Kreia has no experience against people like Yoda? She probably met Exar Kun one day, or at least heard of him. People like Yoda were alive then, she sure as hell knew Vandar probably once faced him in combat training or otherwise. She would know how to fight people like that, and no experience against somebody as powerful as Yoda? The exile wasn't weak, not to mention she trained Revan for a long time of his life and once met him again during or after the Mandelorian wars.

- knowing Exar Kun doesn't make her great
- she never did fight against anybody of the Jedi Council (people didn't even remember her)
- I hope you don't want to tell me that the Exile is as powerful as Yoda or as good as Yoda with a lightsaber. And the Exile defeated Kreia.



Yeah. Sure. She just overwhelms Yoda with her powers. Great joke. It just seems so that nearly everyone can just overwhelm Yoda with force powers. Can you PLEASE keep a little bit of logic at least (even though I know that you hate Sidious and think he is a weak coward) ? Exar Kun couldn't overwhelm Vodo with his force powers. Yoda is more powerful than Vodo so do you want to tell me that Kreia is more powerful than Exar Kun ?

Or just have a look at the "Yoda vs Revan" topic. 700 replies with the result that Yoda might or might not take Revan. Do you give Kreia a chance vs Revan ? I don't.



Oh great. Are we on the "the one who killed the most powerful opponents is the more powerful" level again ? Mace wasted the seismic tank on Dantooine that killed hundrets or thousands of clone troopers before and he did it without having a weapon.
Do you have any doubt that he could have killed anyone the Exile killed except Nihilus ? I don't. So he would still be the greater duelist.



No he won't.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
- knowing Exar Kun doesn't make her great
- she never did fight against anybody of the Jedi Council (people didn't even remember her)
- I hope you don't want to tell me that the Exile is as powerful as Yoda or as good as Yoda with a lightsaber. And the Exile defeated Kreia.

I still have doubts about that, but okay. And you obviously did not pay attention to Kreia, she uses a technique that can erase somebody's memory about them completely. She has used it countless of time and even tells the Exile that if she would use it against him he would not remember. Do you honestly think nobody of the council would remember Kreia? Kreia the one that trained Revan? They are practically blaming her for Revan's fall. She would have to be known unless of course she erased the memory's about her. Or some of the memory's. And Of course knowing Exar would not make her great, but she would have known Vodo as well. Meaning she knew at least two people like that.

Yeah. Sure. She just overwhelms Yoda with her powers. Great joke. It just seems so that nearly everyone can just overwhelm Yoda with force powers. Can you PLEASE keep a little bit of logic at least (even though I know that you hate Sidious and think he is a weak coward) ? Exar Kun couldn't overwhelm Vodo with his force powers. Yoda is more powerful than Vodo so do you want to tell me that Kreia is more powerful than Exar Kun ?

No, she is not more powerful then Kun of course not. (well probably ) but did Exar Kun use his force powers on Vodo. Did he try to overwelm him with lightning. Look at what Sidious did, Yoda struggled okay he was surprised and he managed to throw it back damn impressive but Kreia could surely surprise Yoda with another technique and think of what she could do. She could possibly hit him back. Besides she could also make three lightsabers fly at him while holding him off with another technique. She could hold Yoda off for a very long time and probably just overwelm him with the force.



Do I care about what people say there? I don't, there are a lot of threads in a lot of places people saying Revan would lose from Desann for instance, or get this Revan losing from Malak. Do I care about that? Of course not, another thread means nothing to me in this one because its an opinion from a bunch of people that have nothing to do with this discussion.



Do you know any way to measure how good somebody is in a lightsaber fight besides looking at lightsaber fights, if you do congratulations please inform me, it could save me a lot of trouble in the future. The thing is you don't, so of course we are talking about who killed who and how impressive it was.



Yes he will

Originally posted by Fishy
I still have doubts about that, but okay. And you obviously did not pay attention to Kreia, she uses a technique that can erase somebody's memory about them completely. She has used it countless of time and even tells the Exile that if she would use it against him he would not remember. Do you honestly think nobody of the council would remember Kreia? Kreia the one that trained Revan? They are practically blaming her for Revan's fall. She would have to be known unless of course she erased the memory's about her. Or some of the memory's. And Of course knowing Exar would not make her great, but she would have known Vodo as well. Meaning she knew at least two people like that.

She didn't use it on the council members. The council did cut her connection to the force and she disappeared after that event. And nobody ever mentions her name (the Council members the Exile meets), only Atris knows Kreia.



You overestimate Kreia I think. When she used the tree lightsabers she was not able to move anymore and she can't use other force powers while doing that. That requires concentration. And Yoda can disable that sabers with one hit each and also avoid them (if he can avoid three Jedi Masters trying to attack him he can also avoid three levitated lightsabers).



Looking at a lightsaber fight is not looking at who kills who. Mace was able to fight Yoda into a stalemate during ROTS times so he is better than Dooku with a lightsaber. Now what did the Exile do:

- he talked Sion into death
- he killed Nihilus
- he defeated Kreia
- he defeated Atris (who was the archivar of the Jedi Order in that times)

In terms of lightsaber combat do you want to tell me that the Exile /Sion / Nihilus / Kreia or Atris are somewhere near Yoda, Sidious, Mace or Dooku from what you have seen in KOTOR II ? Of course we can excuse that with bad animation of the game figures but still I don't think that people who get hit in fights with "normal" soldiers that wear melee weapons can survive a fight with the lightsaber masters from the movies.

Well thats just how the game works, if you look at it like that then no movie character will ever win from a game character because they are able to survive being hit.

And those kills, how about Kavar? He was powerful, how about Vrook? Definitly powerful and skilled in the force. Zaj Kal El, nice but nothing really special just smart not a great fighter but still. The exile killed some great people. And if he did not Kreia did with one attack, the power is amazing holding of Yoda would not be that hard to do. Yeah Yoda is amazing but even Yoda can't jump through force attacks just block them and Kreia could launch some powerful one's, I don't think he could block that.

And please play the game again, she clearly says against the Exile when he asks why they don't remember her that she deleted their memory's of her.

You do not forget the master of the most powerful student you had in many years.

Originally posted by Fishy
Well thats just how the game works, if you look at it like that then no movie character will ever win from a game character because they are able to survive being hit.

Well...I just took a look on their movements. And their is nothing impressive in the way they fight. That's what I meant with they are probably animated badly - the movements (even attacks on "master" level) didn't impress me much.

The only ones I grant a decent lightsaber skill are Kreia and Sion. Sion is a Sith assassin and probably form II master. Still I won't say he is on the same level like Dooku since Dooku had more time to develop his skills. Same counts for Kreia.



The light side ending of KOTOR is canon so the Exile didn't kill those people. Even if so. Kavar ran away from 4 Soldiers who wanted to capture him and nearly got killed by Malak. Vrook...well I don't know. Zaj Kal El even said that the Exile is a greater Jedi than he is.



Kreia killed the masters by showing them how it feels to be the Exile. I doubt that the same thing would work against Yoda since all that masters had some relation with the Exile.
Limited to her "normal" powers Kreia can't do that much. The things she used against the Exile during their fight are not that terrible. Yoda might just block it - at least I don't see any reason why he shouldn't be able to do so.

How the hell do you know the technique Kreia used?

Originally posted by Fishy
How the hell do you know the technique Kreia used?

Hmm ? You mean the technique she used to kill the masters ? She clearly said what she will do. Show them how it feels to be the Exile. Show them what the Exile felt before he did cut his connection to the force.

Any other thing she could do (force drain, cut their connection to the force) wouldn't have killed them.

She killed them, if you listen to her earlier on. She says losing your connection tot he force is like dying. She killed them.

Alright alright... I don't have the time to read mega posts like that back and forth, most of it recap. Let's go with what I know... seems nicer that way.

Kreia IS known to the Council. She is referenced to during the Exile's trial. Pay attention.

If Kreia has no idea about Ataru, how can she tell you about it directly? She may be no real practitioner, but she is bound to know it when she sees it, and perhaps even fend it off. She is a bloody Jedi master, you know.

Again, Kreia's Force mastery draws on both sides and is immense. If she can swat Vrook around like a ragdoll (Vrook who was the second in command of the council of the KOTOR era) she can possibly... POSSIBLY very well overwhelm Yoda. After all, Yoda does not draw on the dark side and must find alternatives to counter Sith attacks. IF it came down to saber combat, yes Yoda would likely win. But not easily. Not at all.

About the Exile: he must be reasonably good. I would assume he could (If he actually became Sith) challenge and defeat Malak after a hard fight. Can he take Mace? Probably. Mace might be able to beat him, but I wouldn't bet money either way. I'm gonna leave this undecided until KOTOR III, or else I'd be wasting my time.

About Sion: We never find out of Sion can be bisected or otherwise cut to ribbons. Assuming he can be, but the hatred and control of the dark side keeps him together (Which I believe it does) his very being might unnerve Obi-Wan after the Jedi master finds out Sion isn't gonna die easily. And Sion IS the leader of Revan's dark jedi assassin group. Hence why he is always ordering them around.

Originally posted by Fishy
She killed them, if you listen to her earlier on. She says losing your connection tot he force is like dying. She killed them.

Nope. You are missing something here.

The masters want to cut the Exiles connection to the force WITHOUT killing him. So that means it won't kill you if someone cuts your connection to the force. I thought she did that after playing KOTOR II for the first time but now I have come to another conclusion.

If you want another example: Nomi Sunrider did cut Ulic Quel-Dromas connection to the force and Ulic survived that.

I don't know what she did exactly. For me the most reasonable explanation is that she showed them what the Exile did feel when he activated the Mass Shadow Generator on Malachor: The death of thousands of people and force users. And that was simply too much for those three people. Yoda (RotS after order 66 is executed) and Ben (destruction of Alderaan) are both able to survive such events.

See...that's only a suggestion but she didn't kill those master with a force drain or by cutting their connection to the force. That's what I can say for sure.

@Janus:


Leaving Sion undefeatable you don't even have to discuss here because if he can't get killed he will just take hit after hit until all three Jedi are dead no matter if they had beaten the Exile and Kreia before.

At least I don't see Kreia beating Yoda and I even have a lesser believe in the Exile beating Mace. So you might end with a dead Obi-Wan and Yoda + Mace cutting Sion into pieces put them into little boxes and blow them into space. Something like that.

How big are these boxes now? lol... Sion is cheap. Hence why I brought up the idea of him being able to be chunked up and good. It would be the only finality to the fight.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Nope. You are missing something here.

The masters want to cut the Exiles connection to the force WITHOUT killing him. So that means it won't kill you if someone cuts your connection to the force. I thought she did that after playing KOTOR II for the first time but now I have come to another conclusion.

If you want another example: Nomi Sunrider did cut Ulic Quel-Dromas connection to the force and Ulic survived that.

I don't know what she did exactly. For me the most reasonable explanation is that she showed them what the Exile did feel when he activated the Mass Shadow Generator on Malachor: The death of thousands of people and force users. And that was simply too much for those three people. Yoda (RotS after order 66 is executed) and Ben (destruction of Alderaan) are both able to survive such events.

See...that's only a suggestion but she didn't kill those master with a force drain or by cutting their connection to the force. That's what I can say for sure.

The Exile felt so bad because he was responsible, I do not think Kreia could do something to them that would make them feel the same pain. It would be very hard for anybody to do that even Kreia, and if she could make them feel the guilt for killing an entire planet and then kill them she would be so much more powerful then I ever imagined.

How the hell DID Nomi cut Ulic off all by herself?

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
How the hell DID Nomi cut Ulic off all by herself?

Well that is one of the never solved mysteries in the SW EU.

Nai could you answer my post, because if what you claim is true then Kreia would have no problem with Yoda at all.

Sure Fishy.

Originally posted by Fishy
The Exile felt so bad because he was responsible, I do not think Kreia could do something to them that would make them feel the same pain. It would be very hard for anybody to do that even Kreia, and if she could make them feel the guilt for killing an entire planet and then kill them she would be so much more powerful then I ever imagined.

No. The Exile did sense all that pain and suffering of the dying people through the force and than cut off his connection to the force to be able to survive that wave of feelings. That is what the game says.

Now if I'm right with my theory Kreia just created something like an illusion of pain and suffering an threw that one at the masters who were certainly overwhelmed by it. And she had to rest for several minutes to be able to do such a thing (probably focusing).

I don't know why but it seems that the Jedi in PT and OT times are less affected if they sense the death of thousands or millions through the force. Obi-Wan had to sit down when Alderaan was destroyed, Yoda nearly collapsed when all that Jedi were killed. Still they could survive such "waves" of feelings in the force. The masters in KOTOR times couldn't. They just seem to be more affected by the "living force".

Still I pretty much doubt that Kreia could do whatever she did to the masters during a fight. And if she can do that I suggest it would have a lesser effect on Yoda, Mace or Obi-Wan than it had to the three masters on Dantooine.

The Exile did not know who or what cut his connection to the force he actually blamed the masters for some time. He was overwhelmed by it and if he did he did not know.

Even if Kreia had to focus for a few minutes think of what she did. Billions of deaths only affected on person the Exile but the rest was not affected by it because it was not their fault. Imagine what kind of power Kreia would have used to make them feel it. Whatever she did it made them feel responsible and made them here the echo, if your theory is correct.

Think of the power somebody needs for an attack like that. When Alderaan was destroyed Obi Wan felt bad of course he felt the waves in the force but he was not responsible. Nobody but the exile was affected by the waves at Malachor because they were not responsible. They may have felt bad but they did not die or lose their connection to the force.

If Kreia can con vice masters who have actually seen a lot of combat that they have done something so bad that it makes them die, then I congratulate her on something I would have previously thought impossible to do, her powers would be amazing.

And yes you are right she probably does focus when she sits down but she also waits for the Exile to come full circle there on his own.

Well, the Exile was pretty damn close for the suffering: he was at the epicenter of carnage, which he was directly responsible for, as was Bao Dur. The Zabrak, being stronger willed as his people are and less idealistic, may have been able to shrug it off. Also, his Force powers were well hidden. The Exile, however, was directly affected, hinting that at least pre-KOTOR II Exile was LS. Anyways, I believe that the movie Jedi are less affected because they are not the causers of the death and destruction.

Thats what I said...

Also, to add to that, the sheer number of Jedi who died instantly at Malachor V was immense, and must have affected all Jedi who survived, assuming any did besides the Exile. It is said many times that the Exile was the only one to face that kind of Force-backlash and survive.

Revan wanted everybody there to die that much was certain, keeping the Mandelorians away and making sure the Jedi there were screwed. What the Exile did was a last resort, I think a few of them may have survived, none of them were affected by it however.

Originally posted by Fishy
The Exile did not know who or what cut his connection to the force he actually blamed the masters for some time. He was overwhelmed by it and if he did he did not know.

It's revealed in the game that the Exile did cut his connection to the force himself. Yes. He blames the masters for it but that's only because he lost his memory.



I think the main "power" behind the waves in the force didn't come from the responsibility but more likely from the death of x thousands of force users that died there. Mara Jade could sense the death of the Emperor through the Galaxy and that was just a single person dying.

The waves of Malachor might have weakened before they did hit any other force user. Malachor is at the outer regions - no part of the Republic. Still we don't know how powerful you have to be to sense such events.



To add some point to my theory here. I think Kreia could have used the Exile himself as a point of focus. She had a very powerful connection with the Exile and the masters were focusing on the Exile to cut him of from the force. Maybe Kreia just used her connection with the Exile and threw the wave of feeling through the Exile into the masters or just made the Exile show the masters what he had felt.

Just another possibility.

I very much doubt it... I still doubt your theory

The Exile felt the power because he felt responsible, he did not cut himself off from the force the guilt from the feeling and the dying screams just echoed in his head. It made him forget the force unable to hear it. It came from the responsibly he basically says it himself, I can't remember the actual quote its to long ago. But Nar Shaddaa master speaks about the guilt that came from his action and that, that deafened him to the force.

Originally posted by Fishy
I very much doubt it... I still doubt your theory

The Exile felt the power because he felt responsible, he did not cut himself off from the force the guilt from the feeling and the dying screams just echoed in his head. It made him forget the force unable to hear it. It came from the responsibly he basically says it himself, I can't remember the actual quote its to long ago. But Nar Shaddaa master speaks about the guilt that came from his action and that, that deafened him to the force.

OK. What did she do to the masters than ? As I said (and prooved I guess) a force drain or cutting them from the force won't kill them.

She drained the lives away from them. Making them deaf from the force does not exactly kill them either it would just make them feel like they are dead. They would still be alive but they are not. She just literally took the live from them, I don't know the technique or the name she just kinda used a very powerful absorb life

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