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So...after reading through the "Sith War (improved)" topic again I mentioned that a team with Marka Ragnos, Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and Darth Revan can't be killed by a team of canon characters. Now...I just decided to try it with non canon characters and hope you people are able to use your imagination.

Team 1: Ancient Sith Lords
Marka Ragnos
Exar Kun
Darth Revan
Naga Sadow

VS

Team 2: Nai Fohls "New Sith Order" (NSO that is) including:

Darth Vader (Anakin Skywalker at full potential)
Darth Vireous (Lord of the green) = Yoda (Dark Side)
Darth Gladius (Lord of the sword) = Mace Windu (Dark Side)
Darth Fortunous (Lord of the luck) = Obi-Wan Kenobi (Dark Side)

Imagine the three Jedi had studied the teachings of the Sith instead of becoming Jedi. Their skills in lightsaber combat remain the same as in ROTS. Who will win that fight ? Just throw anything you like in here.

Ancient sith wins.

Ragnos Kills vader
Sadow kills Gladius
Exar kills Fortunous
Revan kills Vireous

SITH ARE OVERRATED PUNKS WHO LIKE CHEAP POWER

Originally posted by MAKASHIMAN
SITH ARE OVERRATED PUNKS WHO LIKE CHEAP POWER

Like, you're not in the kindergarden ofending your baby companions so, that kind of crap doesn't work very much around, at least with me.

I JUST DON'T LIKE THE SITH

Originally posted by Darth_Rankkor
Ancient sith wins.

Ragnos Kills vader
Sadow kills Gladius
Exar kills Fortunous
Revan kills Vireous

Any reasons for that ?

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Any reasons for that ?

imo:
a) ragnos is (was) more powerful than vader.
b) Sadow is not (to my knowledge) a good duelist but by knowledge of the force and sith magic he would own mace, though mace has a profound knowledge/mastery of the force.
c) Well, even that ben sucumbe to the darkside, his skills would be the almost the same so, if he didn't beat Dooku, he sure won't beat exar kun for he's better duelist that ben.
d) Revan would certainly won yoda. I see revan more powerful than sidious and with sidious he had an hard time, even assuming that he might win against sidious (which I maintain my opinion that sidious would have win)

Is this alright? This is why imo

New sith order will win.
Darth Vader kills Ragnos because of his full potental, then hes more powerful than anyone except mabey Luke.
Darth Vireous kills Exar. I belive dark Yoda would be more than a match for him, he wouldent be able to hit him and think about it, Yoda+Lightning.
Darth Gladius vs Revan. Evil Mace barley. I think he could pull this off. His Vappad is great and hes a great jedi so I belive he would barley handel him but wouldent be able to put up much of a fight cause he would probably be legg less.
Darth fourtunus vs Naga. I don't know a shit about Naga and I really like Obi but I don't know here, anyway Naga can't win even if he beats Obi.

ragnos wouldn't take full potential anakin, he'd rape anyone no doubt |!

Welll made up characters always have a nice chance but still Sith win.

Why?

Darth Vader (Anakin Skywalker at full potential)
Darth Vireous (Lord of the green) = Yoda (Dark Side)
Darth Gladius (Lord of the sword) = Mace Windu (Dark Side)
Darth Fortunous (Lord of the luck) = Obi-Wan Kenobi (Dark Side)

Anakin at his full potential would not necessarily have a great control, and seeing as you said Anakin Skywalker i'm going to assume you mean pre suit, with his full power he would still lose from Ragnos, Revan Sadow or Kun

Yoda is great now, but the only thing I know about him is that Dooku thought he would be unstopable on the Dark Side, could very well but I doubt it. And if he would have just gone dark his techniques would not be advanced enough yet. Of course that is if he just became Dark. Still I give this to Sadow

Darth Windu, Revan will still easily take him. Windu stands no real chance against somebody like Revan.

Darth Obi against Exar Kun? Let him try what he wants he loses.

This team is a lot better, but Windu and Obi are just to weak and could be killed to easily even as Dark and that would mean the others would have help pretty fast.

Oh...before people just missunderstand what I thought that characters would be like

Originally posted by Fishy
Anakin at his full potential would not necessarily have a great control, and seeing as you said Anakin Skywalker i'm going to assume you mean pre suit, with his full power he would still lose from Ragnos, Revan Sadow or Kun

I actualy meant "full developed" Anakin Skywalker. My mistake. Talking about a Darth Vader that never lost to Obi-Wan on Mustafar.

For the rest of the characters: I don't had in mind they would just "turn dark". I thought about all of them (including Anakin) never becoming Jedi but just been trained in the ways of the Sith from infancy on (so other force powers) but still with their ROTS lightsaber skills. Just to point that out.

In that case, well Obi and Mace are still weak links..

It depends on how powerful Anakin would really be compared to the rest. I know for sure that Revan would take Obi in less then a minute and that with Exar he would take Mace fast too.

But would Anakin be so powerful he could defeat them all? I very much doubt it, so I still give it to the orginal four, but your team is the only that stands a chance. Of course its complete fiction

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
So...after reading through the "Sith War (improved)" topic again I mentioned that a team with Marka Ragnos, Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and Darth Revan can't be killed by a team of canon characters. Now...I just decided to try it with non canon characters and hope you people are able to use your imagination.

Team 1: Ancient Sith Lords
Marka Ragnos
Exar Kun
Darth Revan
Naga Sadow

VS

Team 2: Nai Fohls "New Sith Order" (NSO that is) including:

Darth Vader (Anakin Skywalker at full potential)
Darth Vireous (Lord of the green) = Yoda (Dark Side)
Darth Gladius (Lord of the sword) = Mace Windu (Dark Side)
Darth Fortunous (Lord of the luck) = Obi-Wan Kenobi (Dark Side)

Imagine the three Jedi had studied the teachings of the Sith instead of becoming Jedi. Their skills in lightsaber combat remain the same as in ROTS. Who will win that fight ? Just throw anything you like in here.

NSO win IMO. Yoda, Mace, and Obi dark? That's a hell of alot of power.

Hmmm well,

Anakin at full potential beats any of them.
Yoda darkside loses to all of them but barely barely barely.
Mace darkside loses to all of them
Obi darkside loses to all of them.

mace and obi are instantly dead no matter who they face Lets just say exar and sadow. Revan takes yoda. Then the three of them fight Ani, Even if yoda beats Revan (which he wouldn't) He still has to face either exar or sadow directly afterwards exar would wreck him and sadow would probably as well. Only way I see the dark movie charachters winning is Mace dying like a n00b,obi dying like a n00b, Yoda getting lucky and somehow winning, then one sith lord faces ani and get pwned like ragnos does, next sith either kills yoda and then gets the living crap kicked out of him by ani or yoda finishes the first guy off fast enough so ani and him double team the last sith. Even then if one kills yoda fast enough they might be able to take Ani with a double team. Old sith still pwn especially Revan and Exar they wreck anything except full potential anakin.

To add my own oppinion here...

I think full developed Anakin will kill Ragnos.
For Yoda...just imagine somebody studying sith magic and dark side powers for 900 years. Urm...He pretty likely will be able to kill Naga Sadow.
Mace Windu well...he could just become as powerful as Malak but still being the greater lightsaber duelist (I guess) so he will give Revan a run for his money.
Now Kun will probably kill Obi-Wan.

I'd say all fights would last equal long. Maybe Exar Kun will kill Obi-Wan fast enough to help Revan with Mace. I don't know. For what I suggest it would come down to a 2 vs 2:

Exar Kun + Revan facing Darth Vireous (Yoda) and Darth Vader (Anakin).

Now there are two opportunities. Yoda and Anakin win their matches (Anakin vs Kun and Revan vs Yoda). Yoda might lose (still I doubt that).

You would end up with Darth Vader vs Revan and Revan losing at the end. NSO wins with Vader as last man standing.

Yoda would be good, but I don't think he can take Sadow any time fast. At least not before Exar and Revan walk away.

Imagine Obi Dark, does he seem a lot more powerful to you. I don't, Exar or Revan would still own him. Then its two against Mace either one of them would win together they would own Mace pretty fast, I think so at least.

Then its 3 against 1. By the time Yoda dies Anakin would have killed Ragnos, because thats going to be one damn hard fight without any doubt. And even then I still think Ragnos has a chance but okay. 3 against 1? Ragnos is going down. The team is nice, but Obi and Mace just do not compare.

Originally posted by MAKASHIMAN
SITH ARE OVERRATED PUNKS WHO LIKE CHEAP POWER

Your an overrated punk who needs to shut up.

Darth Vader (Anakin at full potential) would excel way above what NJO Luke Skywalker is. He could take out all these guys on his own.

The New Sith Order would tear these guys to shreads. Everyone would just eat pop-corn and drink soda, while Darth Vader just wipes them out easily...

"All too easy."

against the four best sith? unlikely, Revan and exar together could probably take him.

Could and would.

The only thing we have to go on with Anakin his power is thats its 200% Sidious. Revan and Exar would each be close to that easily... They would sure as hell be able to defeat Anakin together.

Anakin's entire body is of midi-clorians and at full potential he would excell way above what Yoda, Luke, Revan, Exar, and Marka Ragnos could imagine, so Revan and Exar can't even a hold a candle to Anakin at full potential, so just adding all those other guys...Revan's dead...Exar's dead...and Marka Ragnos is dead with ease.

Everyone else can just enjoy the nice show Anakin's going to put on when he beat all those guys to death. Pop-corn and soda thats the only weapon they would need.

How do you know? How can you possibly know that Anakin even at full potential is more powerful then any of those guys? There is no real evidence for it.

Any two of those Sith could take Anakin, Plagues.

it's true think of it mathematically

Anakin at full potentail=200% sidious

Revan and exar are both much much more powerful then sidious at the minimum as powerful as NJO luke who's 160%

So even at minimum 160+160=320 which is greater then anakins 200 he might even kill one of the sith but certainly not both.

Now lets include the fact that anakins an idiot to the point where he could probably get tricked into running off a cliff by a six year old against some of the greatest minds in the galaxies history.

That was retarted frobo.

I'm tired I'm allowed to be stupid.

If Anakin were at his full potential, he would best Revan in one armed combat. I will in fact, go so far as to adopt a term frequently used by other people. Anakin would own (as in destroy) Revan in a battle of Force or lightsaber duels if he is at his full potential.

Because I thought it was made clear. Anakin at his full potential would be one of - if not THE - greatest Force user in galactic history. If, at his full potential, he would be twice as powerful as either Yoda or Sidious, I do believe he is stronger than Revan or Tulak. At least individually.

Revan may very well be more powerful than Sidious. But twice as powerful? Hardly.

Ill repeat what I said in the other thread, darth nihilus or zonama sekot could take all 4 at the same time. Frobo, math and star wars are best served seperately.

Well people...just talking about Sadow and Exar Kun:

They did what the did but they needed technology (Sadow blowing up stars, Exar destroying Ossus) to do so. Actualy that means they both can be even less powerful than Sidious talking about "force potential" - I mean just take a look at the fact tha Exar needed an Sith amulett to be able to move on Ossus without being recognized as a dark side user while Sidious did just manage to do so based on his own powers.
The other "impressive" thing Kun did (freezing the Senate) was also based on Sith magics and you had at least Vodo resisting that effect.

Now forget those actions that were based on technology or magic and just think about those people in terms of "normal" force powers and duelist skills.

@Frobo:
I love math, but I love logic even more. Now think about the following point. If Anakin is the strongest force user ever and you grant people like Kun or Revan 75 or 80 % of his power why should Exar Kun FEAR the spirit of Marka Ragnos who (at his peak in his own body) would be less powerful than Anakin (maximum equal powerful). Keep in mind that we don't know how what Lucas thinks how powerful Sidious is.

And if you read the ROTS novel, Yoda thinks the "new" Sith are more powerful than the ones the Jedi have killed during the Battle of Ruusan. "The brighter the light the darker their shadow."

During the battle of Ruusan? I wouldn't be surprised. But still we have no figure on the midiclorians of anybody but Anakin so that measns absolutely nothing. His full potential for all we know would be nothing special.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well people...just talking about Sadow and Exar Kun:

They did what the did but they needed technology (Sadow blowing up stars, Exar destroying Ossus) to do so. Actualy that means they both can be even less powerful than Sidious talking about "force potential" - I mean just take a look at the fact tha Exar needed an Sith amulett to be able to move on Ossus without being recognized as a dark side user while Sidious did just manage to do so based on his own powers.
The other "impressive" thing Kun did (freezing the Senate) was also based on Sith magics and you had at least Vodo resisting that effect.

Now forget those actions that were based on technology or magic and just think about those people in terms of "normal" force powers and duelist skills.

@Frobo:
I love math, but I love logic even more. Now think about the following point. If Anakin is the strongest force user ever and you grant people like Kun or Revan 75 or 80 % of his power why should Exar Kun FEAR the spirit of Marka Ragnos who (at his peak in his own body) would be less powerful than Anakin (maximum equal powerful). Keep in mind that we don't know how what Lucas thinks how powerful Sidious is.

And if you read the ROTS novel, Yoda thinks the "new" Sith are more powerful than the ones the Jedi have killed during the Battle of Ruusan. "The brighter the light the darker their shadow."

That's just him talking. It's his opinion. And anyways, being stronger in the force doesn't atomatically make you stronger in lightsaber dueling. So all this crap about how Anakin could kill Revan with one hand in a saber duel, is not even close to being right.

I think that GL's quote was misread. I think he meant Anakin to be 160% of Sidious, not 200%. I belive what he said was that Anakin would have been far more powerful than even Sidious, but after his fall on Mustafar, he had only half of his potential, about 80%. It makes sense, but I just want to see the quote again to make sure. If I'm right, it would clear up a lot of things, or at least simplify it. If someone knows the site, find out and copy the page onto a thread made for this purpose. Or, tell me the site and I'll check it out.

Anyone? Read the last post.

"Lucas claims that, as a masked and suited Darth Vader, Anakin has roughly 80% the strength of the Emperor. Had he sustained none of his injuries on Mustafar, he would have been about twice as powerful."

That's from wikipedia. Both things are taken from an interview with Lucas but I can't remember where that was. Well Lucas at least contraticted that statement ones saying "Anakin had the potential to become 10 times as strong as Sidious".

Now for gods sake Anakin could be 200-1000 % of Sidious while NJO Luke could be 150-750 % Sidious. And basicaly that says nothing because we don't know what "powerful like Sidious" does mean compared to the ancient Sith lords.

And since I get bored pretty much here is my own suggestion:
Actualy we should make differences between 3 terms:

a) force potential
b) force powers
c) power

Force potential is the sheer amount of midichlorians that somebody has. It is very safe to assume that Anakin Skywalker exceeds everybody in that followed by Luke Skywalker, Anakin Solo, Jacen and Jaina Solo and Ben Skywalker.

Force power is another thing. You can be more powerful than somebody who has a higher potential just because of being more experienced or having learned more. This can be seen for example in duel between Obi-Wan and Anakin in ROTS. Anakin has clearly more potential than Obi-Wan but as they try to force push away eachother they are equal.

The term "power" referes to any other abilities that are important in combat. That actualy means lightsaber skill and things like Sith magic, artifacts, special lightsabers or unique force powers (Moricho) or things that can't be learned (Nihilus eating ability, Mace Shatterpoint ability).

Back to the topic:
Grant all of the NSO at least the knowledge that Sidious had (force lightning, force storms, jedi knowledge and so on).

Now Anakin Skywalker fully developed is a damn nightmare. What do you think will happen if he unleashes force lightning that is twice as powerful as that of Sidious on Ragnos. Hey...he is at least 25 % more powerful than NJO Luke. Run for your lifes.

A dark side Yoda could waste Sidious in the blink of an eye. That's what Dooku thinks about it. Just imagine Yoda being an offensive bad ass where he is pretty much defensive in the films. The dark side gave Luke enough power to overwhelm Vader. Imagine Yoda giving into his anger...Naga Sadow is toast.

Mace entered the Jedi Council being 28 years old. That is an age where people like Revan or the Exile just have become Jedi Knights. He has to be realy powerful. Now think of him having studied Sith teachings for all his life (53 years) he would clearly be more powerful than Dooku maybe as powerful as Sidious but still and still a major bad ass when it comes to lightsaber combat. He might take Revan.

And Obi-Wan ? Well...did you ever see a Sith Lord using a defensive lightsaber style ? He could probably fend people with one hand and force lightning them with the other. Still he would have a hard time against Exar but maybe win. I don't know.

I agree that Obi-Wan and Mace are the "weak links" in this fight but Yoda and Anakin would be quite amazing. So even if Revan and Exar come out of their fights alive, Yoda and Anakin will destroy them.

Again, with the Skywalkers... Why is their potential supposively unlimited? Because in the PT Lucas introduced the idea that they were spawned of the Force itself. Does he ever say that that is the only case? Never. Meaning? Any one of those ancient Sith lords could be Chosen Ones of their time frames. It is a very real possibility and has yet to be refuted by Lucas. So there goes that idea.

Second, the Sith during the Battle of Ruusan were led by Kaan, who was powerful enough to wipe out every living soul on Ruusan via the Force. I have yet to see Dooku, Maul, or Sidious attempt that one.

Have any of you ever considered the possibility that the majority of people across the world pay attention to the movies more than the Expanded Universe?

Can you imagine, being a movie-goer, and seeing Sidious wipe out an entire planet? It would be hardly believable. Yet in the EU, his Force Storms can travel across the galaxy and consume fleets and various ships.

Sidious is INCREDIBLY powerful. Amazingly so. If Anakin is TWICE that, then I assume he'd be able to take out any Jedi Master or Sith Lord.

Nai Fohl; that line is from the official quote in the interview with GL. Wikipedia took that statement from the interview. I remember reading that same thing, but not from Wikipedia. That is where I copied my quote from though, seeing as how I don't know the name of the site I originally found it in.

Have any of you ever considered the possibility that the majority of people across the world pay attention to the movies more than the Expanded Universe? (No, I never ever considered this. Ever. Honestly, it eluded me. Not sure how. But really, never guessed it. Who knew?)

Can you imagine, being a movie-goer, and seeing Sidious wipe out an entire planet? It would be hardly believable. Yet in the EU, his Force Storms can travel across the galaxy and consume fleets and various ships. (Star Wars borders on hardly believeable, even to hardcore sci-fi fans. The point is Lucas never wanted Sidious to be that ridiculously overpowered. And I doubt he wanted Anakin or Luke to be either. Have you ever considered that?)

Sidious is INCREDIBLY powerful. Amazingly so. If Anakin is TWICE that, then I assume he'd be able to take out any Jedi Master or Sith Lord. (Anakin never IS twice that, though. He's half a man, really. And if he was TWICE that, his power might be immense, but it would mean jackall unless he had the knowledge and levelheadedness to compete. Why not remake the thread Someone Who Had Anakin's Potential BUt Not His Dumbness versus etc.? I mean, I should make Revan with the powers of all the Sith lords combined versus infant Yoda. Damn.)

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Again, with the Skywalkers... Why is their potential supposively unlimited? Because in the PT Lucas introduced the idea that they were spawned of the Force itself. Does he ever say that that is the only case? Never. Meaning? Any one of those ancient Sith lords could be Chosen Ones of their time frames. It is a very real possibility and has yet to be refuted by Lucas. So there goes that idea.

I don't say that the Skywalkers pocess unlimited power. Unlimited power would mean you are the force, an avatar of it. They aren't. Even a full developed Anakin won't be.
But still Anakin is not a "natural" boy. He had at least no natural farther meaning that:
a) He was directly conceived by the midichlorians (Chosen one theory)
b) Plagueis came in manipulated the midichlorians to produce him.

Actualy that doesn't matter. Fact is that there is no way to get his amount of midichlorians in a "natural" way. What he can do with it is another question. Seeing what NJO Luke can do with his (lesser) potential I guess he can do a lot of things.



I have to correct you here. Kaan used a thought bomb (technology) to wipe out all people on Ruusan because he thought the Sith Lords would be able to withstand that thing - actualy they were not.



Well...can you tell that for sure ?
And using that argument: Did Lucas want Revan, Ragnos, Kun, Sadow or anyone else to be more powerful than the people running around in the movies ? Did he want the ancient Sith to be more powerful than the "new" ones ? Actualy there is still more "logic" behind the EU novel characters (including NJO Luke) than there is behind the game characters or the comic characters. If you want to base it on Lucas (possible) oppinion or "normal" logic you can throw anything except the movies out of your window and say that the people in them can't be surpassed in power.

This is like Nai Fohl vs. KMC, well I'll try and help the cause.

Darksiders reach their maximum power quicker than lightsiders, therefore Yoda Dark would be a match for anybody you threw at him. Yoda can't really show us any great power as a lightsider because no lightside power is used for attack, unless you count force push. Being light is harder than being a darksider because you have to control your power and not let it consume you, and Yoda had a lot of power that he had to control. I think Yoda had to fight cautiously and watch his temper or he might lose control and kill everything in sight. In the movies it never seemed like Yoda was using his full power, at first I thought he did, but look at his fight with Dooku, afterwards he just got his walking stick and acted like nothing happened, he didn't seem tired at all, same with Sidious, he fell how many feet and just rolled over jumped in the speeder with Bail and acted like the fight didn't even start to exhaust him.

Anakin at full potential would probably be as strong as Exar or at least close. They both were good mechanics and they were both hot heads, and both were also thought to be super powerful by Sith Lords. Ragnos said Kun could revive the Sith empire but he was wrong and Sids thought Anakin would surpass them all and he was wrong.

Mace and Obi dark wouldn't help this fight to much I think they would be about the same as they were light.

This showdown all depends on how strong Darth Yoda and full potential Anakin are, which like I said Anakin probably as strong as Exar, and Yoda just because he has all the time to perfect his darkside power would be super strong, plus I don't think anybody has as much control over the force as Yoda. If Yoda wasn't so damn humble all the time he would of easily ruled as emperor during the movie times and nobody would be able to challenge his power just like Ragnos, only he would rule for 800 years as Dark Lord, and die a natural death too.(You could say Ragnos had tougher competition, but we don't know that for sure, although it seems likely we don't know for sure.) What Dooku said about Yoda is probably true.

The primary assumption here is that the Dark Side would make Yoda stronger than the Light Side Yoda.

I'm not so sure this is the case. It's been expressed that neither the Dark Side nor the Light Side is inherently stronger at the master level -- which Yoda clearly was.

It's a valiant attempt, but I still have to give this to the Sith. We can only assume at the powers individuals like a full potential Anakin or a Dark Side Yoda;

Originally posted by Illustrious
The primary assumption here is that the Dark Side would make Yoda stronger than the Light Side Yoda.

I'm not so sure this is the case. It's been expressed that neither the Dark Side nor the Light Side is inherently stronger at the master level -- which Yoda clearly was.

It's a valiant attempt, but I still have to give this to the Sith. We can only assume at the powers individuals like a full potential Anakin or a Dark Side Yoda;

Well...in terms of "combat" the Dark Side would surely make you better because all the "agressive" stuff (force choke, force lightning, life drain, force drain and so on) are DS powers while the overall useful stuff (reflexes, speed, jumps) are available for dark side and light side users.

And imagine that Dark Siders would have a different attitude in terms of "fighting".

Originally posted by Darth Plagues
Anakin's entire body is of midi-clorians and at full potential he would excell way above what Yoda, Luke, Revan, Exar, and Marka Ragnos could imagine, so Revan and Exar can't even a hold a candle to Anakin at full potential, so just adding all those other guys...Revan's dead...Exar's dead...and Marka Ragnos is dead with ease.

Everyone else can just enjoy the nice show Anakin's going to put on when he beat all those guys to death. Pop-corn and soda thats the only weapon they would need.

Where is it ever stated that Anakin at full potential would be more powerful than anyone else?

Plagues, you just don't like Ragnos, do you? Now, I think Anakin might take him, and he could certainly take Kun and Revan, but none with impeccable ease. And even if according to most, Anakin is the most powerful, you don't know by how much. Anakin could concievably beat anyone in the SWU, but you make it sound like God, which he sure ain't.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...in terms of "combat" the Dark Side would surely make you better because all the "agressive" stuff (force choke, force lightning, life drain, force drain and so on) are DS powers while the overall useful stuff (reflexes, speed, jumps) are available for dark side and light side users.

And imagine that Dark Siders would have a different attitude in terms of "fighting".

If that were the case, the Sith would be able to overpower Jedi in practically every battle; evidence shows that is not the case. There is no superior combat method, be it defensive or offensive.

In a Jedi vs. Sith lightsaber duel, it comes down to which party is more well versed in the force; if the Sith's offence overpowers the Jedi defense, then the Sith is the winner; and if the Jedi defense can hold off the Sith attack and find an opening, then the Jedi is the winner;

In a battle with two offensive forces, it's whoever can get the first unblockable combination in. And in a battle with two defensive styles, it's whomever is more patient.

You are correct that the DS has the more offensive abilities, but a true master could take skills like lightning and counter that with force absorb, or use force protect against drain and so on. There is no intrinsically more powerful side.

The entire battle hinges on whether or not you think a Dark Side Yoda would absolutely destroy Sadow, and an Anakin at full potential can destroy Ragnos. Because you know Revan and Kun's abilities, and they would most likely beat Obi-Wan and Mace Windu.

If you were to make inferences based on what we know about Sadow's and Ragnos' sword abilities, and assume they were formidable, I'd be willing to bet they'd beat Obi-Wan and Mace Windu. The whole battle hinges on whether or not you feel that the DS Yoda and Anakin at full potential can defeat their respective adversaries faster than Obi-Wan and Windu fall.

You could even argue that Obi-Wan would not keep his defensive style if he wasn't a Jedi, hence it would be possibly quicker to take him down.

There are too many user variables in this projection, it comes down to sheer opinion; there are no facts to back this up.

Originally posted by Darth Windu
Plagues, you just don't like Ragnos, do you? Now, I think Anakin might take him, and he could certainly take Kun and Revan, but none with impeccable ease. And even if according to most, Anakin is the most powerful, you don't know by how much. Anakin could concievably beat anyone in the SWU, but you make it sound like God, which he sure ain't.

Windu says it all here. Plagues you are horribly biased against, Ragnos, Kun, Revan ect. I myself will admit that I am biased for Revan, but I try not let that effect my posts. Also we have no proof that, Anakin hypothetically at his full potential is stronger than, Revan, Ragnos, Kun ect. Maybe he is, but then again maybe he isn't. Just because he has 20,000 mids in his body does not mean anything. How do we know that Kun didn't have 40,000 mids or that Revan did not have 39,000 mids? We don't and therefore we have no proof that, Anakin at his full potential is stronger. Unless GL comes out and states that "Anakin had he reached his full potential would have been able to defeat any number of opponents of great power" my statement stands.

If he did and that would be used in an argument I would start using GL his word in any statement about NJO Luke.

Originally posted by Illustrious
If that were the case, the Sith would be able to overpower Jedi in practically every battle; evidence shows that is not the case. There is no superior combat method, be it defensive or offensive.

Erm...evidence shows people like Revan and Kun wasting Jedis as if they were nothing. In AotC you have Dooku simply putting Anakin out of combat with force lightning, in ROTS he takes out Obi-Wan with the force.

And obviously the "offensive" lightsaber forms seem to aid people better than the defensive ones. Watch all Niman users getting killed on Geonosis and Obi-Wan losing from nearly everyone.



In a lightsaber duel, it does not only come down to which party is more well versed in the force:
- Anakin defeating Dooku (yeah I know...fake...)
- Mace defeating Sidious
- Sidious at least defeating Yoda

So people who aren't more versed in the force can win. And...I have to say...using that argument the NSO will pretty much destroy the ancient Sith if you take a look at how long those people would have studied the force / dark side powers.



Well...there aren't many "true" masters seen. The only being that ever "absorbed" force lightning was Yoda.



Well...that is the mistake here. Obi-Wan and Mace would NOT be Obi-Wan and Mace from the films. Imagine people that studied Sith and Jedi teachings (that is what Sidious did) for 35 (Obi-Wan) or 50 (Mace) years...



Now that's basicaly an assumption. If Obi-Wan would use another form he could also become more deadly seing that form III is no realy designed to kill people.

@Fishy:


And what would that be good for ?

Making NJO Luke completely non Canon meaning false and that it should be thrown away.

Originally posted by Fishy
Making NJO Luke completely non Canon meaning false and that it should be thrown away.

No. It won't. Saying he is 150 % Sidious (in potential) still leaves the questions:
a) "How powerful was Sidious ?"
b) "What can 1.5 times more potential do ?"

And sorry...with that statement you can make all people not in the films "non Canon" and throw them away (Including Revan, Kun, Ragnos, Sadow and so on...)

Actually no you can't. NJO Luke is cannon, but it obviously contradicts with GL his word. And how powerful was Sidious? I think its shown pretty clearly in the movies. Exar Kun, Ragnos, Sadow, Nad, Revan, Ulic, Malak and lots of others are clearly more then 1.5 times as powerful as him. And Luke is far more then 1.5 times as powerful as him. You have read the NJO books yourself.

GL his word means nothing to me when its in a thread that has NJO Luke because it can be used against him too and I hate cheap tricks like that. But when somebody else uses it, I will use it too just becuase I can

Originally posted by Fishy
Actually no you can't. NJO Luke is cannon, but it obviously contradicts with GL his word. And how powerful was Sidious? I think its shown pretty clearly in the movies. Exar Kun, Ragnos, Sadow, Nad, Revan, Ulic, Malak and lots of others are clearly more then 1.5 times as powerful as him. And Luke is far more then 1.5 times as powerful as him. You have read the NJO books yourself.


Lucas also said that Anakin fully developed would only be twice as powerful as Sidious and he would be the most powerful force user ever.

Now...with that statement you can also say that nearly every character not in the movies contradicts GL his word. Or else you would have to say that Sidious is clearly more powerful than he seems to be in the movies.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Now that's basicaly an assumption. If Obi-Wan would use another form he could also become more deadly seing that form III is no realy designed to kill people.

God your annoying. You always critize people for assuming, when you assume the most.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Lucas also said that Anakin fully developed would only be twice as powerful as Sidious and he would be the most powerful force user ever.

Now...with that statement you can also say that nearly every character not in the movies contradicts GL his word. Or else you would have to say that Sidious is clearly more powerful than he seems to be in the movies.

Just like NJO Luke, and all those other people could still be 99.9% Anakin when NJO Luke could not be.

Assumptions, assumptions. hard to avoid but the opposition is always quick to point them out. Look, the biggest assumptions here include this:

- Yoda having the temperment to be a dark sider. For all we know, Lucas made Yoda and his kin guardians of the Jedi Order and the Force, and they are not easily if at all corrupted due to what they are. That in itself is an assumption, but so is the idea that he CAN be turned.

- Anything about Anakin's power and Luke's power is assumption, since we will never see it in full swing and Lucas gives us vague figures at best. And besides, higher numbers has never meant absolute domination. That is the worst assumption of all.

- And lastly, there is the assumption that we would even have an idea what any of this Jedi would be like if they were max potential dark side. They wouldn't be anything we know. Being the shade of an essentially good person isn't like changing hairstyles: Darksiders would think, act, and kill fundamentally different. That's not an assumption, that's common sense. If Hitler was accepted into art school and didn't hate jews, he would be fundamentally different.

These examples are all flawed.

Revan was already one of the most powerful Jedi before he fell to the dark side; and in his lightside ending, he would still be considered the most powerful of his time.

Exar was not your typical Sith, he was a prodigious Jedi first, and he fell to the Dark Side. He fought to a draw with a Jedi Master once, and was stopped once by his old master, before he slew him the second time he fought. So even so, he was not without his limitations; even during his time, he wasn't shown to be invincible.

Count Dooku was a revered JEDI MASTER before he fell to the dark side; he would already be an elite warrior that only a few could match before he even started down the dark side road.

You gave me 3 examples of individuals of extreme power regardless of whether or not they were Sith/DS or Jedi/LS. Let's all apply prodigies towards the norm. By that example, every Jedi would be like Yoda, and would only lose given stacked circumstances.

Originally posted by Fishy
In that case, well Obi and Mace are still weak links..

It depends on how powerful Anakin would really be compared to the rest. I know for sure that Revan would take Obi in less then a minute and that with Exar he would take Mace fast too.

But would Anakin be so powerful he could defeat them all? I very much doubt it, so I still give it to the orginal four, but your team is the only that stands a chance. Of course its complete fiction

Mace is not a weak link, he is up there with yoda. You are a disgrace to the Korunni. Anyway, mace would definetly die, but he is not a weak link, and would certainly give at least on of the a good fight. Obi wan has very good defense, so i dont know how long he would last, maybe long enough till someone aids him, if not he dies and windu is ganged up on, then the rest are defeated.