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ok the door to the sith temple open and in walked Darth Sidious Darth Vader Darth Maul and Darth Tyranuss. in the center of the temple stood Darth Traya Darth Revan The Exile DS Darth Nihilus and Darth Sion Darth Traya laughed as the new sith walked in lets see what these anchint sith lords are made of shall we palpatine sneerred as the new sith ran forward


Darth Trayas Team
Darth Traya
Darth Revan
Darth Nihilus
Darth Sion
The Exile DS

vs

Darth SidiousTeam
Darth Sidious
Darth Maul
Darth Tyranus
Darth Vader

Darth Traya's Team all the way.

Tyranus and sids would probably take out some but eventually traya's team and sids team is outnumbered overkill

vader kils nihilus he dosnt have the force eating ability
maul kills sion maybe
exile kills tyranus
revan and krieakill sids
exile kills maul
vader kills exile
vader kills kriea
revan kills vader

ok this is a long fight so id like to see other peoples oppinions

can i join a team

Oh, traya's team has this one, maul sucks compared to this one, but Tyranus is a toughie.

dude, vader does not win all those fights, thats total bs. He slow clunky ass just needs 1 or 2 sith with a great number of agility and he is fried bacon.. I agree vader might stand against 1, if he is deadly lucky 2 but other than that he does not own when thier are much more powerful sith and jedi, attacking....gasp! more than one person. THis wont be a pretty 1v1, 3 might take one and continue from there. Anywayz Traya team wins because they have the number advantage, plus Revan and Nihilus are on that team so, goodbye to the rest.

Okay people. Darth Maul does not SUCK with a lightsaber. He is deadly. Many of you attribute Yoda's defeat at Palpatine's hands by a course of mere bad luck. If Yoda and Palpatine were at least equal to one another - Maul sure as hell didn't lose to Obi-Wan due to lack of skill.

Darth Trayas Team

Darth Traya
Darth Revan
Darth Nihilus
Darth Sion
The Exile DS

vs

Darth SidiousTeam

Darth Sidious
Darth Maul
Darth Tyranus
Darth Vader

===========

Darth Sidious vs Darth Traya. I don't know enough about Traya. I heard she was able to kill several Jedi Masters just by waving her hand. But I don't think that should count, considering she would simply do the same to the Exile during the final battle. They both have immense Force powers.

Darth Tyranus is skilled in Makashi - a form of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. It is the style predominantly used back in the times of the Old Republic. He is also older than Revan - so is probably more experienced in lightsaber combat. But Revan is stronger in the Force.

Sidious is overall the best of his team. His Force powers are mighty and nothing to scoff at. Darth Vader has endurance and strength superior to everyone of the other team. But he is slow and much weaker than his former self. Darth Maul is quick and aggressive, as much as any of Revan's team. He is also highly trained with a lightsaber. Darth Tyranus is skilled in lightsaber combat to keep up with Traya's team.

Overall, Revan's team would win probably due to overall Force superiority. Sidious - in terms of the Force - would be the one they'd have the hardest time with.

Umm nihilus eats everyone including his own team.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Okay people. Darth Maul does not SUCK with a lightsaber. He is deadly. Many of you attribute Yoda's defeat at Palpatine's hands by a course of mere bad luck. If Yoda and Palpatine were at least equal to one another - Maul sure as hell didn't lose to Obi-Wan due to lack of skill.


Are u kidding me, are u freaking kidding me? Maul? Maul got poned, destroyed, by a padawan obi wan kenobi, he would get raped by any of traya's team.


My results:

round 1
Revan vs. vader- revan
scion vs. tyranus- tyranus
nihilus vs. sidious- sidious
traya vs. maul - traya

round2
revan vs tyranus- revan
revan and traya defeat sidious.

No...I would have to say luck favored Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon Jinn was better than Obi-Wan at the time, and Maul owned him. So how could he be owned by Obi?

the same could be said for maul's defeating of qui gon jinn.

the same could be said for sidious's defeating of yoda

nihilus dosnt have the eating thing sion is invincible in this fight vader is slow but very good granted not as good as revan or sids but still good

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
dude, vader does not win all those fights, thats total bs. He slow clunky ass just needs 1 or 2 sith with a great number of agility and he is fried bacon.. I agree vader might stand against 1, if he is deadly lucky 2 but other than that he does not own when thier are much more powerful sith and jedi, attacking....gasp! more than one person. THis wont be a pretty 1v1, 3 might take one and continue from there. Anywayz Traya team wins because they have the number advantage, plus Revan and Nihilus are on that team so, goodbye to the rest.

I believe that vader's fighting in OT is similar to kendo so, you're not really talking serious are you? I've seen a 70 old Japanese guy wasting 6 black belts. So don't give me that that he his slow and all that crap. He could move pretty well in fact, having in consideration he wore that armour (vader).

Darth Trayas Team
Darth Traya
Darth Revan
Darth Nihilus
Darth Sion
The Exile DS

vs

Darth SidiousTeam
Darth Sidious
Darth Maul
Darth Tyranus
Darth Vader

Lets see.

Revan vs Sidous, Revan he has a greater control over the force and he is a far better fighter. He'd take down Sidious pretty fast.

Kreia vs Maul, Kreia without any doubt and or problem

Exile vs Dooku, this would be the greatest fight in the match. Still the Exile has more experience then Dooku does and is probaby a better figther his control over the force isn't bad either and he could probably take Dooku, if not he would get help fast.

Vader vs Sion and Nihilus, Sion and Nihilus obviously.

This is overkill really, Kreia her team wins easily

i was thinkin maul and dooku would kill exile
the maul and dooku fight nihilus and sion sion and dooku dies maul gets killed by nihilus kriea and revan take out sids its not really over kill i think it would make a great match IMO

Sids' team is OWNED.

First off, Traya's team has more people. Meaning? The two weaker Sith on her team could team up on the strongest person on Sidious' team, which would be Sidious himself. So it could go Fishy's way, or something like this.

Sion and Nihilus vs. Sidious- Sion/Nihilus
Traya vs. Vader- Vader is owned
Exile vs. Maul- Maul is owned
Revan vs. Dooku- Revan, easily

OR

Sion/Nihilus vs Dooku- Sion/Nihilus
Revan vs. Sidious- Revan

Any way you put it, Traya's team wins, some combinations with no losses whatsoever.

revan and kriea vs sids = revan and kriea
maul vs sion = maul
the exile and nihilus vs dooku = exile nihilus dies
maul and vader vs the exile = maul and vader
revan vs maul and vader = could go either way

Darth-Yoda; the way you set up the fights makes it seem like half of one team is watching and waiting while the others fight. Read my last post. And Revan would beat Maul and Vader, and he could take Sidious without Traya. Traya herself could fight Sidious to a standstill, if not defeat him outright.

Why do so many people underestimate Darth Maul I mean he owns Qui-Gon Jinn. But before you say he got a cheap shot in there is no such thing as a cheap shot in a battle to the death. And he also pwns TPM Obi-Wan.

Oh yeah Team Sidious wins

He would defeat Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. He did, as a matter of fact. The only reason he lost was because he was arrogant enough to let Obi-Wan live while he toyed with him. I completely agree with you. And as cool as I think Darth Maul is, I don't think he could defeat anyone on Revan and Traya's team. That being said, he could probably give Sion and de-powered Nihilus a fight, but these two would probably fight together as a team, meaning Maul is destroyed. Do you really think Maul could stand against two Ancient Sith? Maul was so good because he was the first Sith the Jedi had seen in a millenia. then again, he was skilled, but I don't think he last against anyone here. Possibly, just possibly, he could take Nihilus, but I highly, highly doubt it. He would give either of these two a decent effort, though.

i agree that traas team win but not easyily after a long and gruling fight

Nah, it would be pretty easily. You even gave Traya's team more people.

if you have noticed i have given them all there apprentices

I have noticed. And have you noticed that Traya had more of them?

yes i have i was wondering that but sion and nihilush arnt that powerfull so there aboutas storng as vader or dooku

im not gonna count the exile, because the canocial ending for kotor 2 has him as being lightside, so that makes it even teams

and i think that dooku is just a little over valued in terms of power

dooku is a strong fighter

Dooku is strong, but not good enough. Nobody on Sidious team has the power to change the balance. Kreia her team is far to powerful.

Traya team no questions asked

Maul = Sion
Dooku = Nihilus
Sidious>Traya
Vader>Revan

Originally posted by Eminence
Revan vs. Sidious- Revan


Damn right. Revan could even solo this shitty Sidious team.

Faunus always was the bright one.

Traya's team in a stomp.

Don't know if sarcastic...

Anyone of these Ancient Sith Solo!!! I mean, seriously. The modern Jedi and Sith are like children playing with toys compared to Sith who lived in Revan's time.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Traya's team in a stomp.

Can you please elaborate, because I'm sure you're the only one who still thinks like that.

Does anyone else get an esoteric kick when reading these old threads?

no.... NRotCA is absolutely correct. Traya and the rest of the team is untouchable.

I'll wait for some actual arguments on this one. I can see how it would be a close match personally.

I'm curious for some arguments too.

On one side we've got Traya, who we've seen handling 3 lightsabers at once and do the insta-kill trick. Although we don't know how effective that is against the real powerful Force users and we also haven't seen any other extraordinary use of the Force from her. Sion hasn't really shown anything impressive combat wise either except for... not dying. Then there is the Exile who practically won her major battles due to being a wound or good with words. N. is going to be the real problem because he has shown some serious use of the Force. Revan, enough said.

On the other side we have the Chosen One, who has shown to be more than capable in a combat situation. There's Dooku, one of the best duelists and practitioners of the Force ever. The deadliest Sith Apprentice, Maul. And last but not least the most powerful Sith.

Well, and this is just my opinion, but:

Nihilus =/< Sidious
Traya > Tyranus
Sion = Maul (he can hold him off with his unkillability)
DS Exile + Revan =/> Vader (Exile being DS is important imo. This means she's killed and drained 3 jedi masters, 'countless' individuals and possibly done so to Sion and Traya.)

Of course Traya and Nihilus' instantkill abilities might just pwn the everyone but Sidious, but I don't know if anyone can get past Sids if they don't.

I wouldn't say Traya could beat Dooku.

I'd put Traya's ability to casually dominate three Jedi Masters with the Force beyond anything we see from anyone on Sidious's team. I think we can place The Jedi Exile on the same level as Traya, considering that she canonically defeated her in a battle Traya herself convincingly states she will not hold back in (plus that was LS Exile, as Nephtys pointed out DS Exile is even more impressive). Sion can hold back and eventually defeat anyone on the opposing team, and Revan based on everything he accomplished seeemd to be an excepional individual, on approximately the same level of Sidious I'd imagine. Nihilus is in an entirely different league to anybody else involved, and Sidious's team also happen to be outnumbered. I don't think it's close; Sidious's team gets manhandled imo.

Three Jedi masters who are known for doing shit all. Impressive, most impressive. As for Revan and the Exile, well, once you take away their blasters, they're useless.

Being a Jedi Master, particularly during wartime, denotes someone as having a certain level of power. As for Revan and The Exile, thats more than the people they fought and killed were able to do.

The only Jedi ranking that's ever depended even remotely on actual battle prowess is Battle Master. Otherwise, you can get the others in a number of ways that are completely peaceful.

guys, i hate to throw it out there, but KOTOR is obviously an exaggeration right in line with TFU, and I am saying that in all seriousness, not sarcastic at all.

Naw.

Yes. Based on Blax's post in the EU forum, most are in favor of reining in the over-the-top feats. That means Nihilus's drain, That means Traya's instakill... just to start out.

Naw, **** Chee's bullshit right in the ear. Nihilus drained Katarr, theres no way to exaggerate that, thats what happened, just as Traya canonally drained 3 jedi masters, that is what happened. There are no ways to exaggerate those events.

i dunno... i want to agree with u, but chee's comment has me stymied.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Three Jedi masters who are known for doing shit all. Impressive, most impressive.

Well they were all High Council Members, Kavar (also the Battle Master) and Vrook were both highly reputed for their capabilities, and Kavar did display effective use of the Force when he stunned an entire crowd of soldiers that were surrounding him. Regardless though they could have been three undefined High Council Members and the likelihood would still be that they would be highly competent at defending themselves against attacks of a form that they actively involve themselves in understanding. Being a Jedi Master is generally indicative of relatively large amounts of training, learning, practise, and experience, having been capable of surviving all of the threats and dangerous situations that a Jedi naturally faces across a vast amount of time, and being of enough merit that they were deemed to progress through every rank all the way to the top position, and as far as they're explored in the EU each trial to the next rank usually involves a test of combat ability as well as such things as good analytical and evaluative judgement. Traya defeated three such beings with the Force. All at once. With no outward display of effort. Whilst situated on a lightside nexus. The likelihood is that, based on that display (and others), she's a highly powerful and dominant Force User.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
I'd put Traya's ability to casually dominate three Jedi Masters with the Force beyond anything we see from anyone on Sidious's team. I think we can place The Jedi Exile on the same level as Traya, considering that she canonically defeated her in a battle Traya herself convincingly states she will not hold back in (plus that was LS Exile, as Nephtys pointed out DS Exile is even more impressive).

We don't know how those three Jedi Masters compare to the Force Power houses of Sidious' team. Dooku and Vader would be able to defeat practically every Jedi Master in the Golden Age. We've seen Dooku put down Ventress with his finger and Ventress is arguably better than any of those featless unknown Jedi Masters. As for the Exile, if she can withstand Traya's insta-kill (Traya must have used her insta-kill logically as she wasn't holding back) there is all the more proof that every one on Sidious' team would be able to do the same.




I've been over this multiple times. No, Sion can't defeat anyone just because he can't die. I want to see him without a head first.



Revan is an unknown. We don't know how he fought in a single worth notable victory. You can't put him on the same level as Sidious because Sidious has been proven to be the most powerful Sith ever without equals. Heck, you can't put Revan on any level because that would always be pure speculation seeing as Revan is an unknown.



If you're talking about the planet drain, do you know how long that even took? Sidious even has feats besides quotes that put him above N.

I don't think it's close either, Traya's team loses, badly.

exaggerated

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
We don't know how those three Jedi Masters compare to the Force Power houses of Sidious' team.

Sure but the likilihood is that dominating three of them simultaneously on the base of a Jedi Temple with ease places Kreia on a level that the others cannot be said to be.



Golden Age? If you're referring to the PT era you haven't establuished the ease and the numbers they would be able to do it against in such a manner.



Well firstly we can consider that they weren't in a combat scenario and it's likely that Ventress wouldn't have been actively defending herself against her teacher/master, and I see people highlight the fact that he did it with a finger as something that is indicative of ease of effort when the truth is that it was likely the best motion he could have used for the attack considering it was a precision attack that operated on a very small scale (attacking her blood vessels). The effort, if there was any, would have likely been going on behind the scenes, on concentrating vastly to be able to apply the Force on such a small scale.



Considering the kind of stuff The Exile accomplishes and the calibre of combatant she's painted to be, I don't think that speaks very positively for people who are in all likelihood weaker then her at all.



Well that he seems to convince The Exile that he cannot be killed after several engagements leads me to believe that it's either not so easy or something that cannot be done due to the nature of his ability, given that the Exile was in a position to test it out and would have likely done so before being convinced.

Also regardless of its useful combat aplications I'd still say that the ability speaks for some quality, whether its willpower, control, power etc. that's far in excess of that of anyone in Sidious's team, and is highly supportive of his superiority over any one of them.



Unknown's a strong term. He accomplishes a tonne of things in KotOR, and beyond that the game exposits at every turn how powerful and exceptional he is, and we know his knowledge base was incredibly vast. The Dark Lord of the Sith, over tens of thousands of other Force Users. The picture being painted is that he was a highly exceptional figure and most likely the most powerful person in the Galaxy.

Also:

"Sidious has been proven to be the most powerful Sith ever without equals."

You've said this in a few threads now but you haven't once fully established it as being correct. The liklihood, based on his movie potrayal, is that he's not even close to being the most powerful Sith ever, and if inconsistent EU showings were used to 'prove' the claim then the argument automatically loses credibility.



Well in the comic book Unseen, Unheard, it's indicated to have taken a few hours, but regardless, it could have taken days, and it's still a vastly impressive display of power, far beyond the small scale stuff we see from everyone else in this thread.



None that are consistent with his movie potrayal and can be said to be accurate reflections of how powerful he really was.

Man, Sidious would have to carry his team heavily. As they would be destroyed easily.

Or Traya was smart enough to know what happened to Nihilus when he tried to drain the Force from her. Hint: he got fuuuuucked up.



Visas says in Unseen, Unheard that the entire planet has less than a hour to live right before Nihilus shows up. So its under an hour at least.

mK8UiRGIltY

0.22

"I worship Hideo Kojima's work. That means the series of Metal Gear, Snatcher and Policenauts!"



Though Policenauts kinda sucks next to MGS and Snatcher...

Wut?

Nihilus is so cool.

GenomeFrozener's sig at the end of the last page.

Originally posted by truejedi
i dunno... i want to agree with u, but chee's comment has me stymied.

TJ, remind me again, please; What WAS Chee's comment? What in the hell is causing all this?

Originally posted by NCRotCA


The effort, if there was any, would have likely been going on behind the scenes, on concentrating vastly to be able to apply the Force on such a small scale.





Two-way street here. Same can be said in Traya's instance.

Traya knows everything else about The Exile, especially considering their force bond. It involves draining the target entirely of the Force, which I assume is the same thing. Draining the Exile would be like trying to eat a Black Hole, crap lot of good it would do.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Well they were all High Council Members, Kavar (also the Battle Master) and Vrook were both highly reputed for their capabilities, and Kavar did display effective use of the Force when he stunned an entire crowd of soldiers that were surrounding him. Regardless though they could have been three undefined High Council Members and the likelihood would still be that they would be highly competent at defending themselves against attacks of a form that they actively involve themselves in understanding. Being a Jedi Master is generally indicative of relatively large amounts of training, learning, practise, and experience, having been capable of surviving all of the threats and dangerous situations that a Jedi naturally faces across a vast amount of time, and being of enough merit that they were deemed to progress through every rank all the way to the top position, and as far as they're explored in the EU each trial to the next rank usually involves a test of combat ability as well as such things as good analytical and evaluative judgement. Traya defeated three such beings with the Force. All at once. With no outward display of effort. Whilst situated on a lightside nexus. The likelihood is that, based on that display (and others), she's a highly powerful and dominant Force User. I'm just going to point you in the direction of Coleman Trebor, than laugh.

Exceptions do not make the rule.

There is no rule. So, lol.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I don't think you get what I'm saying, Dooku and Vader aren't those three Jedi Masters. They can probably defend themselves against an attack like that.

I'm not saying that any one of those individual Jedi are at the same level as Dooku or Vader, what I'm saying is that the ability that domination of all three Jedi Masters likely required goes beyond what we can say for Dooku or Vader. Minimal effort, three of them, all at once, on a lightside nexus. I don't think we've ever seen such a direct dominating display against Force Users anywhere else, period, let alone from simply the likes of Dooku or Vader.



Grievous took out a bunch of fatigued, surprised, fearful Jedi with a lightsaber one after the other, and most of the Jedi he faced weren't even masters with absolutely nothing to their name. Nowhere near as impressive as what Traya performs, not to mention you can't really compare the wwo.

And again, Golden Age of the Jedi, more powerful jedi, you've established neither of these things.



At what point? The beginning of the duel she likely didn't know an attack was coming, and once the attack had already been initiated it would have been much harder to defend against. Not to mention even if she knew the attack was coming and was in the best position to defend against it she likely wouldn't have. Fighting back in her eyes might have simply been futile; not only could she possibly have a heightened sense of how powerful Dooku really is, but it's also likely that even if she could partially defend against the attack and force Dooku to apply more effort he'd still be able to have her at his mercy all the same. End result would be the same, even if it would require more effort on Dooku's part to do it against an opponent that was defending themself. Not to mention, and as she would have liekly imagined, it was just a test/lesson and he wasn't actually trying to kill her or anything. it would suit her position and purpose better to just let Dooku get on with it.



Perhaps he didn't, though it is possible, but either way the point is that it can't be established that Asajj offered any resistance whatsoever and in all likelihood she didn't, meaning, for all intents and purposes, she was a defenceless non force sensitive in this scenario.



Perhaps not but I've seen things greater.



I believe Nephthys would like to respond to this, though I'd quickly point out her single handed progression through the Trayus Academy, filled to the brim with agents of the Sith, and her following "stalemate" of Sion and defeat of Traya as something that was extremely impressive.



Why would The Exile be convinced that she couldn't kill Sion without exhausting such an immediately obvious avenue? The likelihood is that his ability in some way prevents it.

And The Exile by all available evidence is of the calibre of people far greater than Sidious and Co.



I never said the ability alone necessarily made him superior to somebody that couldn't achieve the ability, but that the ability still speaks volumes about his capabilities that can't be said for the others on Sidious's team. Ignoring the benefit to combat it provides, the unique and unprecedented nature of it implies incredible ability. You see people do great things and it's generally indicative of great capabilities. Forgive me if I fail to be quite as impressed by the small scale TK and lightning we see from the members of Sidious's team.



Do you not view that as being highly impressive? The same statement is the most impressive thing I believe could be said about someone like Sidious (and even then he faces competition for that spot by Yoda). I don't think he's displayed anything that goes beyond the impressiveness of that accolade, an accolade that Revan himself likely shares. I see no problem with saying that the two are likely on the same level, by all available evidence. If anything Revan was even more dominant within his era, the only real competition he faced being that of Malak, the second most powerful individual in the Galaxy it would seem, whilst receiving the external benefits of the Star Forge.



I believe Nephthys would also like to respond to this, though what kind of details?



Well I'm not going to read all of that... Could you perhaps highlight the only necessary pieces of evidence and points that provide such a proof?



Just because the same magnitude of the attack cannot likely be applied on a smaller scale with far more limited time, it doesn't mean it's useless. It still demonstrates incredible ability, that can still be called upon with less time and on a more confined area, even if not to quite the same magnitude.



His clones are never stated to be much more powerful than the real thing, and the implication seems to be that this is RotS Sidious. Anyway refer to the Savage Opress thread for my reasoning on why DE Sidious's displays should be disregarded.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Two-way street here. Same can be said in Traya's instance.

But Traya's display was one of brute Force which wouldn't require the same concentration as Dooku's display of precision. The effort of concentration by its nature isn't something that's very visible, whereas the effort of brute force is something that's more explosivle and the effort if there is some would be hard to visibly conceal.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
But Traya's display was one of brute Force which wouldn't require the same concentration as Dooku's display of precision. The effort of concentration by its nature isn't something that's very visible, whereas the effort of brute force is something that's more explosivle and the effort if there is some would be hard to visibly conceal. What is this according too?

What specifically?

This part. Where did you read this at?

Neb, I'm not in a position to back you up in a debate or actually argue points because of personal stuff but if you're trying to back up Traya's power then I point you to this scene.

J73KwmZhT3g&feature=related

Even Bane, when faced with the same number of Sith Assassins wasn't able to completely dominate them in the manner shown from 1.30 onwards, though admittedly she has the help of the darkside nexus of Malachor while Bane at best only had the lake on Ambria. Actually, strike that, whatever she got from being on a darkside nexus they also got. I also don't know how their unique nature of getting stronger the stronger their opponent is might play in the feat.

Is that (the video) what NCRotCA was referring to? If so, how does this rule out any effor being used on her part?

KOTOR is so ****ing gay at times. Why would they off-panel that whole fight? -sighs- That always bugged me.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
"I worship Hideo Kojima's work. That means the series of Metal Gear, Snatcher and Policenauts!"



Though Policenauts kinda sucks next to MGS and Snatcher...

Thank you.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Is that (the video) what NCRotCA was referring to? If so, how does this rule out any effor being used on her part?
No.

9Kep9mUEfxA
at about 4:49.

Attacking in a controlled or precise manner is not a matter of power but of subtlety; subtlety requires a measured application of concentration that by its nature is not something that is so naturally outwardly demonstrated when exerted, particularly so when we're not simply examining an expression but motions of the body. Attacking with force is a matter of power; power requires a forced application of concentration that by its nature has more tangible physical effects on the body. There are ways of concealing the physical effects of either type, but it would be far harder the greater the motion and the less measured it is. Not to mention Traya would have no need to hide the effort of her attack against the people she was actively murdering, whereas it would be in Dooku's interests to keep of face of casual ease with the way he dominated Asajj.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
KOTOR is so ****ing gay at times. Why would they off-panel that whole fight? -sighs- That always bugged me.

LucasArts wanted a Christmas release. awecraz

And I doubt it was an actual fight. She doesn't even turn around and they don't move from the spot. She literally kills them instantly with zero apparant effort.

Totally forgot about that as well, though I still don't know what I'd label her very best feat between that and her attack on the three Jedi Masters.

Originally posted by Nephthys
LucasArts wanted a Christmas release. awecraz

And I doubt it was an actual fight. She doesn't even turn around and they don't move from the spot. She literally kills them instantly with zero apparant effort.
That's all an assumption since we don't actually see what happened. What I think happened is Revan Bandon jumps down and slaughters them all to save Kreia. But it really doesn't matter because it's exagerated anyway.

NCRotCA: Same thing. There is absolutely NO WAY you can tell if she was/wasn't straining at all during her Force usage. The camera cuts away from her face until AFTER she's done. So your comparison w/ Dooku's Force showing against Ventress falls flat on its face.

Err, no. She doesn't even turn around and they don't move a muscle. Its obvious that they're taken out quickly and decisively. And even so, killing 7 other force users in a single attack is on a level only Nihilus can claim to have done, having to strain to do it doesn't stop it from being an impressive showing of the Force.

Where do you get the idea that it is quick. The camera fades away it could have been several minutes between the clips or a second, we don't know. And yes, they did move. When they appear there are only two in the front, but when they die there are at least three.

NCRotCA specifically said that she showed no effort whatsoever. So the post abolishes that specific claim.

The fact that she didn't move and neither did they indicates that it was very quick, unless they had a battle in which none of them moved.

Did it fade away? It 'cut to black', but you can hear them keeling over during the cut. To be honest, they probably did it so they wouldn't have to animate her killing them.



There was always three at teh front. Two on either sides and then one in teh middle.

I said no visible effort, and I was referring to the attack on the three Jedi Masters, not to mention that my comparison dealt with far more than just their respective displays of effort.

No you said outward, which is quite a bit different than visible.

Here is your comment. "With no outward display of effort. Whilst situated on a lightside nexus."

All dogs are mammals, but not all mammals are dogs. All sharks are fish, but not all fish are sharks.

And by that I meant no display of effort projected outwards, i.e. visible to the outside world in this scenario (and audiological actually, I believe she continues to talk during the attack and there are no differences in her voice).

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
All dogs are mammals, but not all mammals are dogs. All sharks are fish, but not all fish are sharks.

What is this supposed to relate to???

Originally posted by NCRotCA
And by that I meant no display of effort projected outwards, i.e. visible to the outside world in this scenario (and audiological actually, I believe she continues to talk during the attack and there are no differences in her voice).

Two things here: One - she speaks not a single word during the attack. Two - once again, there is NO WAY to tell if she displayed any effort to the outside world, because guess what? The camera cuts AWAY FROM HER FACE, plain and simple.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
What is this supposed to relate to???

It was a comment I decided to make in advance of an anticipated response. You didn't respond as I thought you might, therefore the comment is null and void.

Dude... I'm not talking about the Assassins I'm talking about the Jedi Masters.

Yep, me too. Better watch the video, because apparently you're mistaken about what exactly happened.

OK I just watched it (one of the coolest scenes in the entire mythos ) and yes, it turns out I had remembered incorrecty, the camera does focus solely on the Jedi Masters during the attack. However we do get to see Traya before and afterwards and she continues to talk in a normal manner so we can say that at the very least the attack didn't drain her or show any after effects of a real exertion. We do also get to see her when she throws them around with telekinesis and she doesn't even display any movement whatsoever. But whatever, I retract that tiny part of my statement, the exact outward demonstration of effort she displayed as she performed the attack cannot be determined. Matters little though, annihilating three prepared Jedi High Council Masters at once on a lightside nexus is still phenomenally impressive, regardless of how much of an effort it was.

And Dooku's pwnage of Ventress is equally impressive in my book, combat or not.

I'd like to ask you again to answer with facts and proof instead of speculation and opinion.

Well, prove it.

Oh god I hate debating KotOR characters...

Dont we all? Its really boring just saying that we know nothing about them

un=not
known=uh,known
un+known=not known

or must i do as His Majesty the Cookie Monster does?

Originally posted by Pwned
...or must i do as His Majesty the Cookie Monster does?

Humor us.

Un Known
*wiggle wiggle*
Un Known
*wiggle wiggle*
Un Known
*wiggle wiggle*
Unknown!

Shoulda been more spaces

Sorry I asked.

Heh, my little sister loved the cookie monster, so i had to put up with it

Hell yeah! Cookie Monster is the shiznit man!!

Snap the heck out of it guys, we don't discuss KOTOR!! What is wrong with you?!?! *smacks faces*

Besides... the Holocaust KOTOR was exaggerated!

Is that guy still fapping to KotOR characters?

Originally posted by NCRotCA
OK I just watched it (one of the coolest scenes in the entire mythos ) and yes, it turns out I had remembered incorrecty, the camera does focus solely on the Jedi Masters during the attack. However we do get to see Traya before and afterwards and she continues to talk in a normal manner so we can say that at the very least the attack didn't drain her or show any after effects of a real exertion. We do also get to see her when she throws them around with telekinesis and she doesn't even display any movement whatsoever. But whatever, I retract that tiny part of my statement, the exact outward demonstration of effort she displayed as she performed the attack cannot be determined. Matters little though, annihilating three prepared Jedi High Council Masters at once on a lightside nexus is still phenomenally impressive, regardless of how much of an effort it was. Unless of course the three masters in question are a bunch of featless nobodies.

oh wait they are... : I ooops.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
We haven't seen the exact same feat from them, but they have done much more impressive stuff.

Like what?



Their powers don't have to be exactly quantified for us to be able to say that the likelihood is that it was an incredible feat, and for the record, I don't think the powers of anybody can be perfectly quantified. The vast, vast majority of feats displayed by the PT Jedi/Sith are in relation to another entity, who's worth in most cases is also determiend by in relation to another entity. Even the few constant displays we see from them (such as applying telekinesis to an object) don't allow perfect quantifications of their abilities as we can't say for certain how much effort they were exerting, or whether there were any extenuating circumstances, such as a particularly strong Force presence on the location they were operating (and for the record what constant displays there are are vastly outclassed by feats from others throughout the mythos, so if you wanted to argue that the PT Jedi/Sith were especially powerful in the first place you would be forced to fall back on where they stand, relative to their peers and their time period). It's not possible to undeniably prove almost anything in this forum so we're forced to argue what is more probable, where displays of relative superiority are completely adequate in supporting an argument.



The fact that she has displayed herself to be a relatively more powerful Force User?



Exact source and quote, please. If it's anything like the other stuff you've sourced I'm sure it doesn't definitively establish what you think it does.



I'm making up that it's entirely possible all of that was the case? I didn't say it definitely was.



She had fought him in a lightsaber duel before they had formed their master/apprentice relationship. When Dooku's simply giving her a test/lesson or simply playing around with her for a bit, why fight back and cause it to escalate into a real battle where the outcome, from her perspective, would remain the same, only Dooku would likely kill her afterwards? It would suit her interests far more to just let him get on with it.

And again, there's the fact that it's likely, and fully possible, that she wouldn't have been prepared to defend against it in the first place.



They were all facing a being they recognised as a Force User with thir ligthsabers drawn and in a battle stance, aware that she had just assualted all of them with the Force. They had the opportunity as well as a need to defend themselves. Asajj had no such opportunity.



There's such a thing as probable speculation and improbable speculation, and applying the latter does nothing to discredit the former.



Refined, perhaps. Powerful, I wouldn't quite say so as it was a precision attack.



Their powers don't have to be exactly quantified for us to be able to say that the likelihood is that it was an incredible feat, and for the record, I don't think the powers of anybody can be perfectly quantified. The vast, vast majority of feats displayed by the PT Jedi/Sith are in relation to another entity, who's worth in most cases is also determiend by in relation to another entity. Even the few constant displays we see from them (such as applying telekinesis to an object) don't allow perfect quantifications of their abilities as we can't say for certain how much effort they were exerting, or whether there were any extenuating circumstances, such as a particularly strong Force presence on the location they were operating (and for the record what constant displays there are are vastly outclassed by feats from others throughout the mythos, so if you wanted to argue that the PT Jedi/Sith were especially powerful in the first place you would be forced to fall back on where they stand, relative to their peers and their time period). It's not possible to undeniably prove almost anything in this forum so we're forced to argue what is more probable, where displays of relative superiority are completely adequate in supporting an argument.



Why assume her incredible power would be exclusive to that technique in the first place? We see her knock the Jedi Masters back just as easily with her telekinesis and she quite easily defeats an entire crowd of Sith Assassins who were all of a similar nature to The Exile with some kind of technique. Her ability is demonstrated to be incredible dominating, drain or otherwise.



A big: is all you deserve for that comment...

And I'd be interested in examining why exactly it is that I see a group of Force Users who display some of the most unique, unprecedented, dominating displays of Force use in the entire mythos, and you on the other hand see a group of "unknown goons".



It doesn't have to be a certainty.



Again: her progression through the Trayus Academy, holding Sion back repeatedly, and defeat of Traya, as a demonstration of endurance and immediate ability, is beyond anything we see from Sdious's team. She's displayed the ability to compete with/defeat some of the most impressive, dominating Force Users int he entire mythos, and she does all of it in between having to fight her way through an entire army of Sith.



What do we see after TPM that's canon and conflicts with what I was saying?



Powerful? Relative term. The most powerful, which is what you were saying earlier, yet to be established.



When you apply probability, as a general rule you don't take into account anamolous pieces of evidence. The manne rin which Obi-Wan defeated Maul is not the norm. The likelihood is that it was done in a conventional manner that displayed superiority (and it's certainly what Malak seems to acknowledge afterwards).

In-Universe Source. No Omniscient narrator.



I'll get to this in a second.



Which heavily matches the description of free indirect discourse. the narrator puts the thought onto the perspective of Vader by saying "Vader imagined" first, and then goes on to directly state something that perfectly matches what Vader may have been thinking. You can not establish this to be from the Omniscient Narrator.



So I'm supposed to read an entire several page essay to guage your point just because you refused to provide evidence in a concise manner?



Savage Opress.



Saying that he's mroe powerful, which I'm sure he was, is not the same as actually being astronomically more powerful than his previous depictions. It does not constitute as a reasonable explanation. And just because he was a clone when he said that doesn't mean it was because he was a clone... And something about the previous debate implied that it was RotS but whatever we can use RotJ.

The Death Star Quote

"Vader could sense the hostility of some of the men behind Tarkin, but that was of no importance. Hostile words or actions he could and would deal with, but thoughts of the weak-minded were no threat.
Tarkin, oily and smooth as always, was a man who knew where his best interests lay, and as long as his own plans matched those of the Emperor, he was a useful tool. Which was good, because Vader would not hesitate to use that tool.

The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed.

As would Vader be, someday.

But that was in the future. Now he had more mundane duties. There were problems with the construction of this station. When Vader left, those problems would be corrected. He would return as necessary to correct more troubles as they appeared, and he would also return at times when things were proceeding smoothly, just to remind Tarkin and his senior officers that the Emperor's eye was always watching them.
Always."

Exact same thing as the Vader: the Ultimate Guide quote. Begins by placing the perspective on Vader's thoughts, and then directly describes things that perfectly go in line with what Vader could be thinking.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
And Dooku's pwnage of Ventress is equally impressive in my book, combat or not.

The fact that it can't even be established that Ventress was defending herself, and that it's likely she wasn't, automatically relegates it into being nowhere near as impressive. Not to mention, people go on about how it was a simple motion of the finger; well when Traya threw the Jedi Masters back with telekinesis at she didn't make a single movement at all. And they would have likely had their defences up considering they would have had to consider that The Exile would try to resist her punishment. No matter how you look at it Traya's feat is vastly more impressive.

I take it back, it is Neb.

Because I acted any differently in that lost post to how I have been this entire time? Or is it because I continue to provide overwhelming evidence that Sidious's team gets beaten quite easily that you now bring this up?

So far you've worked with assumptions, speculation and just straight out saying your opinion. While I've brought evidence and facts.

I'm dissappointed that you didn't oblige to my request.

Again, all any of that deserves is a big:

I'm going to try to take this into a different direction before I go back to respond to it.

Slash, do you believe that we can definitively prove that either team would defeat the other in a hypothetical battle? (Y/N)

I'm going to choose to ignore everything that I've already adequately addressed as you seem to now be arguing in circles and constantly resuming already defeated points, and I'm going to also ignore your ridiculous "no you" counter comments where I've already explained how exactly you're wrong on the subject and your blatant lies on the subject of what exactly I've been sourcing and the evidence I've been providing. I'd also invite you to read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_indirect_speech . Refer to the post above for the continuation of the topic on whether we can apply probability to this outcome. The discussion of DE's canonical status can continue in the Savage Opress thread.



Well if you want to discuss the general ability to locate your awareness across the space-time continuum (which is far more isolated from the mechanics of a combat situation than their respective domination of other Force Users), she does display awareness of events that take place thousands of the years into the future. Meanwhile, the likes of Plo Koon have demonstrated the ability to communicate telepathically on different sides of the Galaxy, so what we have again is that Traya has displayed something else that's unprecedented in nature whereas Vader has displayed something met by a relatively unspectacular Jedi Master.



This isn't adressing the point as the nature of the mediums have nothing to dith it but rather than nature of relative and constant performances.



No, they were standing still with their lightsabers ready, indicating that they were battle ready, but not necessarily indicative that they were solely engaged in protecting themselves in a lightsaber battle (their opponent wasn't even armed with a lightsaber, and the lightsabers could have been prepared for a potential lightning attack for instance). Again, that they had just been assualted with the Force by an unarmed opponent would have registered to them that a Force attack was their opponent's most likely form of attack. It butchers all sound applications of probability to assume that they wouldn't have tried to defend themselves against a Force attack.



By Mace and Obi-Wan, fallible characters, and not the omniscient narrator.



The existence of such things as Obi-Wan's unconventional win over Darth Maul.



The grouping of Sidious and Traya with teammates who all operated at the same point in time and the previous debate seeming to assume Sidious's RotS incarnation without the TC correcting them on the matter all implied as much, though again, it's of no consequence, so drop it.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Because I acted any differently in that lost post to how I have been this entire time? Or is it because I continue to provide overwhelming evidence that Sidious's team gets beaten quite easily that you now bring this up?

No, because you continue to argue fallacies, and project your "common sense" into your argument, but MOSTLY because you are ignoring MULTIPLE statements of Sidious's superiority. The fact that you tried to declare the one source In-Universe, when in fact, it is definitly Out of Universe Omniscient, undeniably,

For these reasons I know the truth now.

...And the truth will set you free...

Originally posted by truejedi
No, because you continue to argue fallacies, and project your "common sense" into your argument, but MOSTLY because you are ignoring MULTIPLE statements of Sidious's superiority. The fact that you tried to declare the one source In-Universe, when in fact, it is definitly Out of Universe Omniscient, undeniably,

For these reasons I know the truth now.

Exactly, I don't know how anyone can be so caught up in their own world to ignore all this evidence that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord.

He tries everything to downplay Sidious, even by dismissing DE as not Canon so he doesn't have Force Storm as an ability.

Slash, do you believe that we can definitively prove that either team would defeat the other in a hypothetical battle? (Y/N)

Originally posted by truejedi
No, because you continue to argue fallacies,

Any examples?



"common sense" as in literature analysis and probability?



Because I don't definitively assume just one interpretation that doesn't even fit in with the wider canon?



You're clearly confused; the New Essential Chronology is presented as an encyclopedia that exists within the SW Universe. It's written by Vor'en Nall, a member of a league of historians that worked for the New Republic. There are also sections added in by Tionne, Jedi Master during the NJO. From the perspective of "our world" looking into the "fictional world of Star Wars", there is no omniscient narrator. Everything that is stated in the NEC is the opinion or perception of fact (or possibly even a lie or feigned opinion) of a fallible character within the SW Universe, possibly even edited over.



Please. If anything you've established that Neb and I are alike in that we're both competent individuals. A trait I've been displaying the entire time I've been here, and that a lot of you lack in abundance.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
"common sense" as in literature analysis and probability?


More "throwing out the things that I don't like while making my own conclusions with no substantiation behind them".

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Slash, do you believe that we can definitively prove that either team would defeat the other in a hypothetical battle? (Y/N)

We can definitely prove that Sidious' team has a larger chance of winning this proposed simulation than Traya's team. Ofcourse when Sidious or others on his team suddenly cramp up real bad than Traya's team may ofcourse emerge victorious.

In other words, no.

So, do you accept that the only way to fulfill the purpose of this thread is to argue which outcome is more probable?

Stay out of this RE.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
In other words, no.

So, do you accept that the only way to fulfill the purpose of this thread is to argue which outcome is more probable?

Using facts and proof which certain characters are supported with much more than others.

In other words, yes.

So you accept that probability has to be applied to reach a conclusion?

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Stay out of this RE. Haha, you're definitely Neb. Answer my question fool.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
In other words, yes.

So you accept that probability has to be applied to reach a conclusion?

No, probability should be avoided as much as possible. There is a reason why forum rules state that unknowns can't be used. If we allow probability to interfere with facts then we'll go around throwing "no u's" at eachother all the time.

But you acknowledge that the process of probability has to be used to conclude what is more likely to take place?

Originally posted by NCRotCA
But you acknowledge that the process of probability has to be used to conclude what is more likely to take place?

No. The process of evidence which isn't reliable on likeliness, but facts and proof is what needs to be used.

Yes/No answers please. Are you saying that the process of probability doesn't have to be used when determining what is more likely (aka, more probable)?

Yes/No answers only Slash.

You guys all know it's Neb, and you're actually arguing with him. The time-honored advice is still relevant: Don't feed the troll.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You guys all know it's Neb, and you're actually arguing with him. The time-honored advice is still relevant: Don't feed the troll.

I'm feeding the troll like it's my own child. Maybe I should stop, I've grown... weak.

You notice I quit when I realized it was him. This is a new level of pathetic for him. He seriously spent weeks pretending not to be himself in order to have ANOTHER Kotor debate.

Get a life. Seriously. This forum doesn't want you. Why is that so hard to understand? You have been at it for years.

He's not looking for a debate, he's looking to be right. HWKN suffered the same thing.