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One deadly team vs another deadly team.

Mace and Dooku would usually be a very good team, but not in this battle. Mace or Dooku would be a good match for Malak. Revan is just too good of a deulist for either of them though. I mean, I'm sure Dooku or Mace could hold their own for a while, but then Revan would overcome them. Like I usually say, jeedai or sith from the movies or NJO are just outclassed by most KOTOR era or ancient jeedai or sith.

I couldent agree with that, the future jedi could not be outclassed by sith from the pre star wars times, its like saying soldiers with muskets and rakes could kill our soldiers nowadays. The jedi have evolved and are stronger than sith in KOTOR, maybe sum were very powerful, but Dooku and Mace would take revan. Dooku is a classy elegant duelist and mace is a deadly duelist, revan is good but he cant take both unless he had some help, and malak would balance the fight in some way.

Maybe i shouldve added Bandon instead of malak.

revan would defenitly kill whoever he is fighting and so would malak but if malak loses his fight revan would just fight and kill whoever won against malak.

I couldent agree with that, the future jedi could not be outclassed by sith from the pre star wars times, its like saying soldiers with muskets and rakes could kill our soldiers nowadays. (No it's not, those soldiers have different technology and training, theres no way the ancient jeedai and the current jeedai have different technology, both have lightsabers and both have the Force. The reason ancient jeedai are so much better than current ones is because they were trained and lived during periods of war, with the Sith and the Mandalorians. The jeedai of the movies did not. It's like putting reserves of today up against Vietnam War veterans in their prime. The reserves would be owned due to lack of experience and knowledge on the battlefield)


The jedi have evolved and are stronger than sith in KOTOR, maybe sum were very powerful, but Dooku and Mace would take revan. (Evolved and are stronger? Sounds like exagerated claims by you, how have the jeedai eveolved or become stronger for that matter? And Dooku and Mace together perhaps could take Revan, but you're forgetting Malak.)

Frontline battle experince has nothing to do when you fight an opponent with a lightsaber, war will not help you in fighting a jedi, they were trained to fight, well good, the jedi were trained also. Battlefield knowledge has no effect against an opponent.

Are you serious? I'm waisting my time arguing here. Someone who was trained to fight and grew up fighting and someone who was trained to fight, but lived in times of peace are very different in terms of skill. Besides, because a war is going on doesn't mean theres only battlefield fights, look at the clone wars, there were tons of one on one duels there.

Mace and Dooku both increased their skills due to the Clone War. Just the fact Mace survived the Battle of Geonisis proves how strong he is because only the best Jedi survived that battle.

its not like they were fighting a whole bunch of other jedi or sith? they did exactly what the movie jedi did, fight troops and other worthless pplz. And dont tell me that they lived in times of peace, there was wars b4 TPM and even b4 those wars, war halted in TPM and then started again in AOTC then continued into ROTS. So basicly nobody here has the advantage over each other. Both fought in war, Both fought sith/jedi and evil villains.

Also, if your wasting your time why bother posting...If you have somethin to prove den do it.

Originally posted by General Zodiac
Mace and Dooku both increased their skills due to the Clone War. Just the fact Mace survived the Battle of Geonisis proves how strong he is because only the best Jedi survived that battle.

Mace and Dooku perhaps the two best lightsaber duelists of their time would indeed be a formidable team. But you are comparing them to two ancient Sith Lords both who were greatly aclaimed for their dueling skills. Plus your putting them up against, Revan who by himself would put up a good fight and kill at least Windu or Dooku before one of them managed to kill him (if they could at all). Add Malak to the team and its overkill, Revan and Malak fought together all the time during the Mandalorian Wars and without a doubt learned to combine their abilites and make a great team. Revan and Malak would win this without a doubt.

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
its not like they were fighting a whole bunch of other jedi or sith? they did exactly what the movie jedi did, fight troops and other worthless pplz. And dont tell me that they lived in times of peace, there was wars b4 TPM and even b4 those wars, war halted in TPM and then started again in AOTC then continued into ROTS. So basicly nobody here has the advantage over each other. Both fought in war, Both fought sith/jedi and evil villains.

Is this what you call a well thought out post? Worthless people? Since when are Mandalorians worthless people? And Mace and Dooku did live in times of peace you moron the peace only ended with the start of the Clone Wars. Also, Revan killed hundreds of Jedi maybe into the thousands and Malak as well so what is the crap you pulled out of your ass that they never fought anyone worthwhile? As if the Mandalorians weren't enough.

Mandalorians are troops, correct? I think you should reread what i wrote. They are excluded from the worthless people.

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Mandalorians are troops, correct? I think you should reread what i wrote. They are excluded from the worthless people.

Oh really? As I recall you said "fought troops and OTHER worthless people".

(Sigh) Where is Janus when you need him...

If Count Dooku and Mace Windu both teamed up against Malak, then the Sith Lord would fall in a matter of seconds. However, Revan is one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time (or so we've been told) so it is possible that he may overcome the two on his own.

But Count Dooku is older and - technically - more experienced with the usage of a lightsaber than Darth Revan, though perhaps not in real battle. I doubt that Revan would own them - but he would prevail in the end - Malak's death would only assist him, really.

Not only are Malak and Revan amazingly skilled, but they are a master-and-apprentice pair, so I think they will fight better together, like Anakin and Obi-Wan from ROTS. Windu and Dooku would probably not be quite as communicative, and that would create a problem in the fight. Then the effectiveness Malak's and Revan's pure skills would probably be heightened and dominate the battle. That is how I see it, though that is only opinion.

Dispit is right, Malak and Revan would both win from their opponents, but as master and apprentice and a great fighting team they would be far more powerful then the opposition.

Originally posted by General Zodiac
Mace and Dooku both increased their skills due to the Clone War. Just the fact Mace survived the Battle of Geonisis proves how strong he is because only the best Jedi survived that battle.

This thread makes me wanna cry. I swear.

No, I was kidding there.

Okay, Zodiac... You must be the smartest idiot here. And I mean that in a nice way, really. You pointed out that, and I quote: "Just the fact Mace survived the Battle of Neonisis proves how strong he is because only the best Jedi survived that battle."

- Anakin survived that battle.

- Padawan Barriss Offee survived that battle.

- Kit Fisto, whom Sidious killed in three swings, survived that battle.

- PADME, a regular person, survived that battle.

Zodiac, your logic is officially PWN3D. So sit down and let the real brains tackle these threads.

Now, Ackbar, I am less then pleased with your reasons here... Let me help you on the path to truth...

- Dooku, though an amazing duellist and former Jedi master, is not able to overcome a true Sith lord. IF he could, Sidious would have been dead, and the Emperor in ROTJ would have had a beard and been called "Saruman" on weekends.

- Mace Windu is good, but he is not that good. Many people hear argue that Mace could NOT have defeated Sidious in an honest battle and that it was all a farse. Now I'm not here to argue that, yea or nay, but I will say that if that is true, Mace has a much smaller chance of defeating Malak or especially Revan. Also, the idea that Malak would fall in seconds to Dooku and Mace is said out of ignorance. Dooku's style is more stattic, with minimal movement, while Mace Windu's style is open and kinetic, involving lots of space and such. Malak, Revan's right hand man -above- hundreds of dark jedi and Sith, could more than put up a fight with both of them, especially long enough to Revan to beat the living snot out of Dooku and Revan.

Your logic = PWN3D.

*sigh* Akbar, sadly, you deserve your self-proclaimed title, except maybe spell it NOOB. Frontline experience does nothing in a battle? What is that? Would you rather fight a guy who spent twenty years practicing fencing in a dojo or a guy who was the most famed duelist of his time and killed dozens of people with his swordsmanship? Or here's one; would you rather go into a life-or-death fight with ten years of training or ten years of frontline combat? I thought so.

And the Jedi/Sith of KOTOR time fought the same as Jedi in SW times? Please. The Jedi of SW times fought droids and stormtroopers. The big one's fought a Sith Apprentice, and the two best fought a Sith Lord and lost. The Jedi of KOTOR times fought dozens, if not hundreds of apprentices on maybe Maul's or Assaj's level, a few Dark Jedi/Sith Masters on Dooku's level, and a couple of people on Sidious' level. Revan and Malak were above even this.

P.S.- It's called the JEDI CIVIL WAR for a reason.

Originally posted by darthrevan89
Oh really? As I recall you said "fought troops and OTHER worthless people".

(Sigh) Where is Janus when you need him...

You just repeated my quote, troops are The mandalorians, not others.

Originally posted by Darth Windu
*sigh* Akbar, sadly, you deserve your self-proclaimed title, except maybe spell it NOOB. Frontline experience does nothing in a battle? What is that? Would you rather fight a guy who spent twenty years practicing fencing in a dojo or a guy who was the most famed duelist of his time and killed dozens of people with his swordsmanship? Or here's one; would you rather go into a life-or-death fight with ten years of training or ten years of frontline combat? I thought so.

And the Jedi/Sith of KOTOR time fought the same as Jedi in SW times? Please. The Jedi of SW times fought droids and stormtroopers. The big one's fought a Sith Apprentice, and the two best fought a Sith Lord and lost. The Jedi of KOTOR times fought dozens, if not hundreds of apprentices on maybe Maul's or Assaj's level, a few Dark Jedi/Sith Masters on Dooku's level, and a couple of people on Sidious' level. Revan and Malak were above even this.

P.S.- It's called the JEDI CIVIL WAR for a reason.

Well lets see here, dooku sat back and practiced his skills while other jedi including anakin and obi wan fought in war, and dooku not only owned them in AOTC, but he owned obi wan in ROTS, and gave anakin a hard time, so really he sat back and did nothing, but still had the skills to take down someone who had fought in war, continously.

Ackbar, read my post.

I read it and i agreed with it. Except the Logic = PW3ned
Maybe Dooku was stronger than Sidious, he just never had the guts to actually take him on, same with vader, hell vader was just as strong as sidous, and could take him to.

I agree, dooku is good. Mace is also good, but revan and malak work as a team and would win, i made this post to read other peoples ideas, unfortunately it dident work.

I believed dooku and mace could pull something off, but other than that revan and malak would win.

- "Mace Windu is good, but he is not that good. Many people hear argue that Mace could NOT have defeated Sidious in an honest battle and that it was all a false."

We will never know.

I imagine someone will or has even already asked Lucas via interview. His answer would spell it out nicely for us.

If its been said in an interview i would have to pick it up and read it. But for now the movie shows sidious losing to mace.

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
I read it and i agreed with it. Except the Logic = PW3ned
Maybe Dooku was stronger than Sidious, he just never had the guts to actually take him on, same with vader, hell vader was just as strong as sidous, and could take him to.

I agree, dooku is good. Mace is also good, but revan and malak work as a team and would win, i made this post to read other peoples ideas, unfortunately it dident work.

I believed dooku and mace could pull something off, but other than that revan and malak would win.

Um correction...Vader was not as strong as Sidious after Obi-Wan finished strewing his body parts over Mustafar.

Thanks, I had forgotten to bring that up. Lucas himself says that mecha-Vader is perhaps 80% of Sidious.

as i said he is not stronger, i said about as strong as Sidous, meaning 80% is very close.

Lets put it this way, if dooku is stronger than Vader than he could take on sidous without any problems, it would be a very good fight though.

lets just make it simple, revan and malak win

simple is boring.

Let me do this:

Dooku = Jedi master
Dooku = Makashi master
Dooku = 13 yrs. Sith training
Dooku < Sidious

Vader = Jedi knight
Vader = Form V practitioner
Vader = ~25 yrs. Sith training
Vader < Sidious

If I use a system of 1 thru 3, 1 being the worst and 3 being the best, I do this:

Jedi padawan = 1; Jedi knight = 2; jedi master = 3
Sith training 10 yrs = 1; 20 yrs = 2 30+yrs = 3
Forms I = 1; II = 3; III = 2; IV = 2; V = 2; VI = 1; VII = 3

the totals are Dooku: 7, Vader: 7.

Seem even, don't they? But can Darth Vader keep Yoda at bay while dropping rocks on Obi-Wan and a younger version of himself? Didn't think so...

Well put. And ackbar, Dooku was eighty years old and a Sith Lord. That's kindo of like a sixty year old Shaolin Master against two Karate Blackbelts. You have a point there, but look at it like this. Dooku was more than twice as old as Obi-Wan and more than four times as old as Anakin. That's a hell of a lot of practice. And definetely didn't just sit idly all that time.

Well...

I first want to give some comment to the "KotoR time Jedi" > "Movie time Jedi" issue.

To believe that the KotoR time Jedi are generaly outclassing the movie time Jedi is wrong. The problem here is following: The KotoR time people might actualy be lightsaber duelists since most Jedi in the movie times are specialized in Niman, and the KotoR time people were always involved in wars against the Sith or other threats.

But actualy I would say the movie time people have a greater control and more knowledge about the force. The Jedi kept the entire knowledge of the KotoR time and simply added another 4,000 years of knowledge. For example their ability to block force lightning (Mace, Obi-Wan), reflect it (Dooku) or simply absorb it (Yoda) is not known in KotoR times.

If you keep that in mind the movie time Jedi that are not practicing Niman (form VI) might be actualy better than the KotoR time Jedi (Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan, Anakin and so on...).

Now for the battle...
I will keep my oppinion that Dooku or Mace might be able to take Malak in a duel since they both have more experience with a lightsaber and with the force (50 / 80 years) and are masters of the duel form (Makashi) and Vaapad (something not known to Malak). But it would be a very long and close fight.

But Revan will simply outclass Mace and Dooku powerwise and also with a lightsaber. So I'd say he might take Dooku or Mace before the other one of them can take Malak. That would leave Dooku or Mace (whoever is to fight Malak) vs Revan + Malak which he obviously loses.

Even when Dooku or Mace can defeat Malak equaly fast than Revan can defeat his opponent (I doubt it) Revan will take out the Jedi that is left.

So...Sith win.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...

I first want to give some comment to the "KotoR time Jedi" > "Movie time Jedi" issue.

To believe that the KotoR time Jedi are generaly outclassing the movie time Jedi is wrong. The problem here is following: The KotoR time people might actualy be lightsaber duelists since most Jedi in the movie times are specialized in Niman, and the KotoR time people were always involved in wars against the Sith or other threats.

But actualy I would say the movie time people have a greater control and more knowledge about the force. The Jedi kept the entire knowledge of the KotoR time and simply added another 4,000 years of knowledge. For example their ability to block force lightning (Mace, Obi-Wan), reflect it (Dooku) or simply absorb it (Yoda) is not known in KotoR times.

If you keep that in mind the movie time Jedi that are not practicing Niman (form VI) might be actualy better than the KotoR time Jedi (Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan, Anakin and so on...).

Now for the battle...
I will keep my oppinion that Dooku or Mace might be able to take Malak in a duel since they both have more experience with a lightsaber and with the force (50 / 80 years) and are masters of the duel form (Makashi) and Vaapad (something not known to Malak). But it would be a very long and close fight.

But Revan will simply outclass Mace and Dooku powerwise and also with a lightsaber. So I'd say he might take Dooku or Mace before the other one of them can take Malak. That would leave Dooku or Mace (whoever is to fight Malak) vs Revan + Malak which he obviously loses.

Even when Dooku or Mace can defeat Malak equaly fast than Revan can defeat his opponent (I doubt it) Revan will take out the Jedi that is left.

So...Sith win.

Just because it is not shown in KOTOR times doesn't mean Force lightning absorbtion is not known. Keep in mind that many Force powers used in the ancient times are unheard of in PT era. Hell, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Mace were the only ones to encounter and overcome Sith lightning: Obi-Wan casually blocks Dooku's minor blast with his lightsaber AFTER watching Anakin get rocked; Mace, perhaps caught off balance, barely redirects the lightning from Sidious; and Yoda on the second try and with some effort, I might add. Anyways, the idea that knowledge was actually expanded or was lost depends on how you tend to sort things...

In an era of war, such as KOTOR era, forms, abilities, and whatnot that is made for battle would be popular. After the Battle of Ruusan, such things might be forgotten. Makashi, for instance, was practiced and mastered only by Dooku. Sith were thought extinct. Battle-oriented arts atrophied, as they do in our time. COmpare a knight or man-at-arms in say, 1300s... Practising with a blade and bow every day save Sundays from ages 6 or 8 on up. The ability of this person is much more than, say, a person in our era who dedicates perhaps five or ten years later in life to some weapons training. The medievale era person also fights in real battles, in life or death situations to the point where the start becoming the norm, not the exception. Again, change in outlook, change in experience, change in abilities.

The only advances in the Force made by current era Jedi would have to be passive techniques. And I can't recall any at this time, can you?

Dooes anyone here think that Revan could take Dooku and Mace alone?

It's possible, yes. But really, at this stage in the game I won't argue it until I have a better scope of Revan's power from KOTOR III.

*uses his uber necromantic powers to raise this thread from the grave*

This would be one hell of a battle... some serious lightsaber action.

No it wouldn't, Revan alone'd put up a good fight, though probably go down, but with Malak at his side there's no way the duo can win.

Oh lord.. Malak alone might be on par with Dooku or Mace. Revan is above both of them. Revan and Malak win.. Hasn't this thread been made already?

Yea this is the original... but I figure bumping this one was better than making the same thread over again.