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OMG Sids is the best caus he had force lightin! And de was in the movies!


SIDIOUS IS COWARD! I am annoyed and sick of hearing how great Sidious was, how powerful Sidious was, and how cool Sidious was. He is nothing compared to ancient Sith Lords like, Ragnos, Sadow, Hord, Kun, and Revan.

Oh, Darth Sidious is probably not the most powerful Sith Lord. But like comparing other Star Wars entities against one another, you truly have nothing but pure speculation as who is stronger. Sidious is the greatest Sith Lord - no one truly disputes that - because he did conquer the galaxy and he is the only one to ever do it, in fact.

But I doubt he is the most powerful. Perhaps the most cunning and most diabolical. And he is powerful. But not the most powerful.

bahh what are you talking about count dooku killed everyone...

And trust me. There are more people babbling about how cool and how powerful Darth Revan is. It's also ridiculous.

dude count dookue cut revan in half how can they think hes cool. dooku wore revans head as a hat for 3 days when he was crossin the dixie line in his van

He was the best intellectually for being the first Sith to conquer the galaxy, but when it come to raw power, he'd be torn apart by the earlier generations.

He's the best Sith Politician out there without any doubt, but thats all he really is.

Originally posted by Fishy
He's the best Sith Politician out there without any doubt, but thats all he really is.

He's the best SENATE MANIPULATER.

If he had to deal with dozens of Sith coming after his life and position, he might not fare so well. I don't feel Sidious would have lasted very long as head of the Old Sith Empire.

Thats what I said, he's a politician

Originally posted by Fishy
Thats what I said, he's a politician

Politics involve a lot more than getting 400 people in a room to like you. He manipulated those individuals with the force and a nice visage, but if he were to get matched with a political genius, I don't think he'll last.

Palps took advantage of a weakpoint in the republic - with the seperatists being disgruntled, the Jedi diminishing, and the Senate looking for a hero. He's no more of a great politician than a Hitler was.

Hitler was a brilliant politician, nobody managed to influence the masses like he did. Its hard to find better politicians then that. Politicians manipulate the masses and the people. Palpatine did that, better then most. That still makes him a politician. And he did not use the force otherwise there wouldn't have been humans in the resistance.

Originally posted by Fishy
Hitler was a brilliant politician, nobody managed to influence the masses like he did. Its hard to find better politicians then that. Politicians manipulate the masses and the people. Palpatine did that, better then most. That still makes him a politician. And he did not use the force otherwise there wouldn't have been humans in the resistance.

Hitler himself wasn't an intrinsically good politician. He tried taking over Germany once, and landed himself in jail. What he did was suround himself with talented individuals within his party, and then warped the entire ideal.

Moreover, Hitler found a NICHE. Germany was reeling after the failure of the Weimar Republic and the enormous depression the nation was in.

Hitler was successful, like Sdious was, but to say either was a master politician would be an inaccurate moniker. Both of them were master manipulators.

It results into the same thin. A politician manipulates the masses to get what he wants, Hitler and Sidious did the same. If you want to call that something different then what I call it thats fine, at least we agree on what they were in essence, just not in the name.

You tell me that a man who started as a seller of art on the street with no money and later become ruler of Europe is not talented?

Originally posted by Moff jango
You tell me that a man who started as a seller of art on the street with no money and later become ruler of Europe is not talented?

LOLOL

lmao...

Nice

Originally posted by Camael
dude count dookue cut revan in half how can they think hes cool. dooku wore revans head as a hat for 3 days when he was crossin the dixie line in his van

Say what? Ehh I am confused by this foolish statement.

Hitler was a powerful oratory speaker. Not much of a politician. He was in the military and had a genius level IQ. But Hitler's main ability was that he was an incredible speaker, and many of his enemies later said of him that in order to hate him as passionately as they did, they made sure not to hear a single word of his speeches, for fear of being swayed.

Anyways, Fishy, Emperor Revan even said Sidious was the greatest Sith Lord. Sidious's methods worked. Revan's, Malak's, and all the rest did not. Sidious took over the galaxy, the others did not. He may not be the most powerful - never said that. But he is the greatest for doing what no other Sith ever accomplished.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Hitler was a powerful oratory speaker. Not much of a politician. He was in the military and had a genius level IQ. But Hitler's main ability was that he was an incredible speaker, and many of his enemies later said of him that in order to hate him as passionately as they did, they made sure not to hear a single word of his speeches, for fear of being swayed.

Anyways, Fishy, Emperor Revan even said Sidious was the greatest Sith Lord. Sidious's methods worked. Revan's, Malak's, and all the rest did not. Sidious took over the galaxy, the others did not. He may not be the most powerful - never said that. But he is the greatest for doing what no other Sith ever accomplished.

You don't know that Revan's methods have or haven't worked and at this point no one on this forum does. There isn't a time in the movies where it's said Sidious is the first and only to rule the Republic. If anything, it's hinted that this is the Sith's second or third chance.

Also, avoid using greatest... That's a heavily opinionated word, and the one you need for your description is 'effective', effective being in regards to conquering the Republic. SOme of us here aren't all that thrilled with manipulation on a political front and prefer fighters or assassins or generals. Thus we have those who qualify for our 'greatest' Sith of all time, even if the criteria is different.

And there isn't really a problem with Sidious being championed around here like there was before ROTS.

all I can say about that noobs statement is

How is Darth Somebody a senior member after one month? Is our turnover rate that bad? What does that make me? Methuselah?

Originally posted by Illustrious
He's the best SENATE MANIPULATER.

If he had to deal with dozens of Sith coming after his life and position, he might not fare so well. I don't feel Sidious would have lasted very long as head of the Old Sith Empire. Oh, Lord no.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
How is Darth Somebody a senior member after one month? Is our turnover rate that bad? What does that make me? Methuselah?

They moved me to senior member in three weeks.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Hitler was a powerful oratory speaker. Not much of a politician. He was in the military and had a genius level IQ. But Hitler's main ability was that he was an incredible speaker, and many of his enemies later said of him that in order to hate him as passionately as they did, they made sure not to hear a single word of his speeches, for fear of being swayed.

Anyways, Fishy, Emperor Revan even said Sidious was the greatest Sith Lord. Sidious's methods worked. Revan's, Malak's, and all the rest did not. Sidious took over the galaxy, the others did not. He may not be the most powerful - never said that. But he is the greatest for doing what no other Sith ever accomplished.

Exactly. He was great at swaying, manipulating and surrounding himself with loyal and powerful individuals. He found a niche and took advantage of it. He could charm the rivers into moving for him, but he was not intrinsically a good politician. A good politician is defined by making good DECISIONS, not by being able to sway the masses.

Neither Sidious nor Hitler made great decisions, especially when in power.



By that same whim, you mean to tell me that a man that ruined his party, crippled his nation, managed to get his entire family to change their last name, had his own country's future generations hate him, and caused the greatest war in human history -- of which he LOST, is talented? Please .



Yes, Fishy, we in essence agree to the same thing; Sidious was one of the most, if not the most, effective Sith ever.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Exactly. He was great at swaying, manipulating and surrounding himself with loyal and powerful individuals. He found a niche and took advantage of it. He could charm the rivers into moving for him, but he was not intrinsically a good politician. A good politician is defined by making good DECISIONS, not by being able to sway the masses.

Neither Sidious nor Hitler made great decisions, especially when in power.



By that same whim, you mean to tell me that a man that ruined his party, crippled his nation, managed to get his entire family to change their last name, had his own country's future generations hate him, and caused the greatest war in human history -- of which he LOST, is talented? Please .



Yes, Fishy, we in essence agree to the same thing; Sidious was one of the most, if not the most, effective Sith ever.


I agree on you with hitler he was a little *****. Augustus was the best politician of all time.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
How is Darth Somebody a senior member after one month? Is our turnover rate that bad? What does that make me? Methuselah? It depends on how many posts you have... I was a senior member probably around the third day here...

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Oh, Darth Sidious is probably not the most powerful Sith Lord. But like comparing other Star Wars entities against one another, you truly have nothing but pure speculation as who is stronger. Sidious is the greatest Sith Lord - no one truly disputes that - because he did conquer the galaxy and he is the only one to ever do it, in fact.

But I doubt he is the most powerful. Perhaps the most cunning and most diabolical. And he is powerful. But not the most powerful.

Yes but he did it by deciet. And that IS a cowardally act.
He had the clones and Vader kill the Jedi. Making them out as Evil.
He Took over in the Senate. Not the battle field.
He Used that Moron Jar Jar binks to gain total power. not force.

THE MAN IS A COWARD!

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
And trust me. There are more people babbling about how cool and how powerful Darth Revan is. It's also ridiculous.

What!? REVAN IS AWESOME!

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
And trust me. There are more people babbling about how cool and how powerful Darth Revan is. It's also ridiculous. i completely agree. EU or not video game or not i really dont think he is that great..people say he killed a bunch of sith and all this and that...i mean cmon jaden from Jedi Academy did that and he defeated a ancient sith lord. WTF how can some random jedi do that...it is unheard of and ridiculous for a story. i think revan is ok, but i dont think he deserves as much hype as he is getting

Originally posted by Darth Calladus
i completely agree. EU or not video game or not i really dont think he is that great..people say he killed a bunch of sith and all this and that...i mean cmon jaden from Jedi Academy did that and he defeated a ancient sith lord. WTF how can some random jedi do that...it is unheard of and ridiculous for a story. i think revan is ok, but i dont think he deserves as much hype as he is getting

I agree. I don't like the uses of Video Game characters as a reference to a powerful force user. Within a video game, you have to have a lot of enemies to fight, or else the game becomes stale very soon.

I hardly believe that in the span of 50 some odd years, you could have Kun, Droma, Malak, Revan, The Exile, Nihilus, Traya, Sion, and the like all be considered in the top 30 of all time.

The era must either be by far the most loaded ever, or one of the most overblown and overrated eras in SW history.

I go with the latter. No doubt that the names mentioned are indeed very powerful, but to claim that Revan is the most powerful after based off a game is a bit rash.

why are we even talkin about hitler...even if it is for comparisons...jus the sound of his name makes me sick ...i dont care is he was great politician or leader (which i dont think he was) he was a horrible racist, he blamed the jews for all of germany's problems (when he was jewish himself), and his own subordinates made attempts on his life because he wuldnt give up when they losing the war. he is burning in hell right now and good riddance. Can we plz not mention him any more

Originally posted by Illustrious
I agree. I don't like the uses of Video Game characters as a reference to a powerful force user. Within a video game, you have to have a lot of enemies to fight, or else the game becomes stale very soon.

I hardly believe that in the span of 50 some odd years, you could have Kun, Droma, Malak, Revan, The Exile, Nihilus, Traya, Sion, and the like all be considered in the top 30 of all time.

The era must either be by far the most loaded ever, or one of the most overblown and overrated eras in SW history.

I go with the latter. No doubt that the names mentioned are indeed very powerful, but to claim that Revan is the most powerful after based off a game is a bit rash.

I's overloaded retard because it's the golden age of the Sith.

no that era had already come and gone sweetheart....that was the time of marka ragnos, ajunta pall, and freedon nadd. revan is after them

No, if you actually new something about EU, you'll know that Ragnos proclaimed that when Exar took the title of Dark Lord it was pronounced the Golden Age of the Sith. And Freedon Nadd was not anywhere near Ajunta Pall or Marka for that matter. They were all spaced out differently.

ok my bad, but where does revan play into this.

Originally posted by HimoKun
No, if you actually new something about EU, you'll know that Ragnos proclaimed that when Exar took the title of Dark Lord it was pronounced the Golden Age of the Sith. And Freedon Nadd was not anywhere near Ajunta Pall or Marka for that matter. They were all spaced out differently.

Ragnos crowned Exar because he wanted Exar to take over the galaxy and make it the "Golden Age of the Sith". The Sith were practically dead by the time Exar took the throne. How is it the "golden era" when there were fewer Sith than the population in the Vatican?

If we had as much detail about the era surrounding Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow, it would probably contain MORE individuals of considerable power than the era in question. We already know about Simus, Ragnos, Sadow, and Kressh as is, even with the limited knowledge of the high era of the Sith Empire.

So yes, "retard", Revan's era was overblown.

yes, Revan is far too overrated, its getting quite dumb. you have all these people saying that people think Sids is a god, but the Revan fanboys are far far worse.

bottem line, Sidious is by far the best Sith lord to grace the works of Star Wars ever.

followed closely by Darth Vader.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
yes, Revan is far too overrated, its getting quite dumb. you have all these people saying that people think Sids is a god, but the Revan fanboys are far far worse.

bottem line, Sidious is by far the best Sith lord to grace the works of Star Wars ever.

followed closely by Darth Vader. True, true.

Originally posted by HimoKun
I's overloaded retard because it's the golden age of the Sith. It was the Golden Age? Kun failed at his attempt and the Republic survived another 4000 years, and it was the Golden Age of the Sith?

Originally posted by JLRTENJAC
What!? REVAN IS AWESOME! I've asked this before and have been scolded for it, but, what is it about Revan that everyone believes him to be the best? Is it his mask and billowing robe? Is it the fact that since you become accustomed to playing him that you feel your own character is reason enough to overly praise him?

I completely agree. Darth Sidious is a coward. Very much so. That much cannot be disputed. Now, people also use the word "noob" far too much. Darth Frobo, how am I a noob? Because I make legitimate points that you clearly cannot dismiss? It speaks of little capable intellect when one has to resort to insults to try and continue a debate.

Darth Janus is also right. We do not yet know if Revan succeeded or not. As far as we can tell, he did not. But then again, I suppose we'll have to wait till the third KOTOR game. And I agree. Darth Revan was an excellent tactition and a master of the Dark Side.

So, we all agree on Revan's capability and the fact that Sidious is a coward. I don't recall denying either.

Darth Sidious is easily the most effective Sith, as Illustrious has stated, as far as we know. I am sorry, Janus. Dismiss Sidious's tactics all you like, but they worked. As far as we know - Revan's did not. Call it cheating if you will. Sorry, but the Sith follow the dark side. They are, for all intents and purposes, evil. Evil cheats.

Sidious's strategy is that he takes control and advantage of anything and everything that he can. And as for the "greatest Sith" line I used, I am simply going by my own opinion - and Wikipedia's entry on Sidious. It states that he is the greatest Dark Lord of The Sith. I will get you the entire paragraph detailing that, if you wish.

Sidious did take control of the galaxy. Of course he used dishonorable methods. But it got the job done. He may not be as cool as Revan, but then again, to be "cool" is not a measure of effectiveness.

We do know that it is because of Darth Sidious (his manipulation of Anakin) the Jedi Order was extinguished. We do know that because of Sidious, the Sith conquered the galaxy. We also know that he created the greatest Empire in galactic history (according to Star Wars databank).

Hate Sidious all you like. But I've made points that none of you can dismiss. If you do - without resorting to namecalling Frobo - I will apologize and consent.

But deal with it. There is a reason why the entire movie trilogies are based on his manipulations and schemes. There is a reason why he is labeled "ingenious" and "cunning" and "the greatest Sith Lord".

^^ What he said. If you people look at his name, Sidious is insidious meaning, (Loosely, not the actual meaning) cunning and deceitful. Exactly what he is.

Ok to all you, Revan haters out there let me list a few points for you...

1. Revan is NOT the most powerful Sith Lord, however he is considered to rank among some of the greatest Sith Lords ever. Also to all those people who say, Revan is the most powerful...well your wrong and all your doing is giving Revan a bad name for people like that jackass the Anomaly to exploit upon.

2. Revan's betters include: Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Tulak Hord, Ludo Kresh, Ajunta Pall, and possibly Exar Kun.

3. Due to the fact that, Revan has never been scene in any of the Star Wars films morons such as ANOMALY consider him nothing more than EU garbage when compaired to weaklings such as Sidious.

4. Sidious is a ******, lame ass, cowardly, ***!

Oh and Tangible God...get rid of the Hitler avatar. Hitler no matter what his accomplishments is a...****ing son a ****ing ***** that was a blight upon the Earth and did not die slow enough or painfully enough to suit me.

Originally posted by darthrevan89
Ok to all you, Revan haters out there let me list a few points for you...

1. Revan is NOT the most powerful Sith Lord, however he is considered to rank among some of the greatest Sith Lords ever. Also to all those people who say, Revan is the most powerful...well your wrong and all your doing is giving Revan a bad name for people like that jackass the Anomaly to exploit upon.

2. Revan's betters include: Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Tulak Hord, Ludo Kresh, Ajunta Pall, and possibly Exar Kun.

3. Due to the fact that, Revan has never been scene in any of the Star Wars films morons such as ANOMALY consider him nothing more than EU garbage when compaired to weaklings such as Sidious.

4. Sidious is a ******, lame ass, cowardly, ***!

Oh and Tangible God...get rid of the Hitler avatar. Hitler no matter what his accomplishments is a...****ing son a ****ing ***** that was a blight upon the Earth and did not die slow enough or painfully enough to suit me. Firstly, I am glad that someone with known seniority shares my views about Revan and his superiors, though not fully about the Sidious remark. Secondly however, I am not a supporter of Hitler, I have nothing against Jews or other cultures he directly persecuted. He was a thief. He stole the Swastika from various other cultures, he stole his moustache from Charlie Chaplin, he got his fascist gov't based on Mussolini's, he even used many of Henry Ford's hate filled views toward Judaism. I simply admire his tenacity and ambition and how he was able to make a poverty stricken nation, one of the world's greats. Though, many who know me personally consider me a Neo-N*zi for my shared opinions with Hitler's gov't. (minus the Jew part etc...)

Originally posted by darthrevan89
Ok to all you, Revan haters out there let me list a few points for you...

1. Revan is NOT the most powerful Sith Lord, however he is considered to rank among some of the greatest Sith Lords ever. Also to all those people who say, Revan is the most powerful...well your wrong and all your doing is giving Revan a bad name for people like that jackass the Anomaly to exploit upon.

2. Revan's betters include: Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Tulak Hord, Ludo Kresh, Ajunta Pall, and possibly Exar Kun.

3. Due to the fact that, Revan has never been scene in any of the Star Wars films morons such as ANOMALY consider him nothing more than EU garbage when compaired to weaklings such as Sidious.

4. Sidious is a ******, lame ass, cowardly, ***!

Oh and Tangible God...get rid of the Hitler avatar. Hitler no matter what his accomplishments is a...****ing son a ****ing ***** that was a blight upon the Earth and did not die slow enough or painfully enough to suit me.

Well, I'm not a Revan hater. But he was brought up, so...

And yes, Sidious IS a coward. But I can clearly see you just don't like him, so you discredit him. It is painfully clear to see.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Well, I'm not a Revan hater. But he was brought up, so...

And yes, Sidious IS a coward. But I can clearly see you just don't like him, so you discredit him. It is painfully clear to see.

Sidious is brilliant all give him that...but I still despise him.

Now, I would like to enjoy some unbiased and capable people to oppose me in the argument. Darth Revan89 has provided me with a very good example of how intelligent arguments can go downhill as soon as one of the participants shows extreme bias and refuses to accept information - even if it goes against his own opinion.

Yes, I will agree. Sidious is my personal favorite Sith Lord. But that is just because I admire his solitary level of intellect and that the fact that the Star Wars movies were entirely based on his schemes and so forth. I did at one time rank Darth Revan up on my favorites list. But that was before I've seen so many people boast about him without mentioning the slightest fault. As much as I like Sidious, I will openly admit his faults and prove that he was not invincible, infallible, or perfect. He wasn't. He was very flawed, hence his eventual defeat.

Now, having said that, I am able to present a relatively good argument. I do not see anyone providing proof how Sidious could not be considered great or THE greatest for accomplishing what no other Sith did. I also see no one admitting that Sidious's methods worked better than that of those previous.

Some of you may not like Michael Jordan, for example. Certainly he isn't the tallest basketball player, or the biggest. But he is the greatest and most famous for his record.

Just because you don't LIKE someone (like me with Darth Revan) does not mean you should deny that which they have accomplished. It makes you immature and unworthy of a professional debate.

I apologize, Darth Revan89. I've seen your post just now. Just try to be a bit more...impartial during discussions of greatness when comparing Sith Lords. You will find that most of the time, the crowd favorite isn't always the GREATEST.

I'm not a Revan hater by any stretch of the word. I am a skeptic that fully stands by that Revan is by no stretch of the word the greatest or the most powerful of the Sith Lords. The greatest goes to Ragnos or Sidious, rather easily; the most powerful is open to interpretation.

I do, however, believe that simply because he slaughted baddies in a video game does not prove he's greater than the next guy. Even Kyle Katarn and Jaden Korr did their fair share of slicing up lightsaber wielders, does this mean they should be mentioned as an elite?

Revan is a far above average, extremely proficient duelist, with an extended knowledge of the force. He is without much question, one of the top tactical minds of the SW universe; put that together, and he is a very formidable opponent.

But, people are far too easily swayed by the jack of all trades, slice them and dice them "cool" character that is Revan in the video games. The same individuals within the KotOR games that say Revan is great also make snide remarks that he doesn't stack up to the ancient Sith lords. Take what you will out of that.

Revan's a upper tier jedi/sith, and a very formidable individual, but he is by no stretch of the word, the most powerful, or the greatest, of Jedi OR Sith as we know it.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Now, I would like to enjoy some unbiased and capable people to oppose me in the argument. Darth Revan89 has provided me with a very good example of how intelligent arguments can go downhill as soon as one of the participants shows extreme bias and refuses to accept information - even if it goes against his own opinion.

Yes, I will agree. Sidious is my personal favorite Sith Lord. But that is just because I admire his solitary level of intellect and that the fact that the Star Wars movies were entirely based on his schemes and so forth. I did at one time rank Darth Revan up on my favorites list. But that was before I've seen so many people boast about him without mentioning the slightest fault. As much as I like Sidious, I will openly admit his faults and prove that he was not invincible, infallible, or perfect. He wasn't. He was very flawed, hence his eventual defeat.

Now, having said that, I am able to present a relatively good argument. I do not see anyone providing proof how Sidious could not be considered great or THE greatest for accomplishing what no other Sith did. I also see no one admitting that Sidious's methods worked better than that of those previous.

Some of you may not like Michael Jordan, for example. Certainly he isn't the tallest basketball player, or the biggest. But he is the greatest and most famous for his record.

Just because you don't LIKE someone (like me with Darth Revan) does not mean you should deny that which they have accomplished. It makes you immature and unworthy of a professional debate.

Let me put it this way...

Sidious is brilliant, powerful, cunning and overall very intelligent. I am not denying that he is any of these I simply made this thread because I was sick of reading all these posts on how Sidous is the most powerful, and greatest Sith Lord ever.

Yes I know I am bias against, Sidious, but I am not denying the facts of what he was.

Precisely, Illustrious. Some would assume because he triumphed in the video games means something. That he battled so many warriors and lived. Well, consider. I'm positive everyone has died at least once while playing KOTOR. In the Star Wars universe, when one dies, there is no Loading Screen that reverts you to your previous saved portion of the game.

And look. In the movies and books, one slash across the chest with a lightsaber is enough to kill just about anyone. Notice how in the video games, this is not the case. Just mere health is dropped.

Take this into consideration, my friends.

Darth Revan89, there is no true way to measure absolute power of a Sith Lord. The versus forums are based on crowd speculation, unless you have actually seen or read about the two combatants actually fighting with one another in times previous.

I say Sidious is the "greatest", because he took over the galaxy. That is, according to Star Wars databank, the ultimate goal of the Sith Order. No one else, as of yet, has ever accomplished it. Not Ragnos. Not even Revan. Of course some argue this was not Revan's goal. Perhaps.

Sidious may not be the most powerful. But greatest is certainly not a true measure of power, not in my eyes. A crippled person can be GREAT. It doesn't mean that they are physically or mentally powerful.

Illustrious and Darth Somebody, I love you guys. I mean that in the platonic sense, I'm straight. I have received numerous insults thrown my way over the exact same argument as well if Revan was actually Sith learned, particularly from Darth Janus and Human Vader, and am glad to find some people in here with some social manners that protrude past the rednecks.

It's not that they are particularly un-intelligent. Quite the opposite. But like Sidious said to Yoda, "Your arrogance blinds you." And indeed it did.

Well at least we all agree.... Sidious was brilliant but a coward, the rest were far more fun but failed...

Originally posted by Fishy
Well at least we all agree.... Sidious was brilliant but a coward, the rest were far more fun but failed... Amen bruther!

I must know something why do so many of you underestimate Darth Sidious's power I mean GL even stated Luke will never be as strong as Sidious which means he could beat NJO Luke. But before you start he is a coward

Originally posted by Fishy
Well at least we all agree.... Sidious was brilliant but a coward, the rest were far more fun but failed...

That's a fair statement.

This thread was a big waste of text, really.

Originally posted by DarthGenises
I must know something why do so many of you underestimate Darth Sidious's power I mean GL even stated Luke will never be as strong as Sidious which means he could beat NJO Luke. But before you start he is a coward

You are simply wrong here. Lucas said that Anakin would be 200 % Sidious and Luke also surpassed Sidious in terms of power. In the Dark Empire comics you have Luke (with a little help of Leia) defeating Sidious (who has a chrystal that gave him more force powers). NJO Luke would waste the "movie" Sidious in the blink of an eye. No doubt about that.

About Sidious and power. Well...in my personal theory the Sith did lost power from the times of Ragnos to (at least) the Battle of Russan just because they:

a) Did not have people anymore that were trained with Dark Side powers / Sith Magic and so on from infancy.
b) Because they killed their master once they were powerful enough they would have much knowledge or "wisdom" lost.

The last "real" Sith Lord was Naga Sadow. The people that followed were more or less Dark Jedi that didn't have connections to the "real" Sith. So powerwise that would mean:

Marka Ragnos > Naga Sadow > Tulak Hord / Freedon Nadd > Exar Kun > Revan > . . . . . . . . > Sidious

The last Dark Lord that got this title (and it's a nominal title since that people didn't rule over the real Sith Empire) and "earned" it in the eyes of the ancient Sith was Exar Kun (as Ragnos himself declared him the Dark Lord) but all people that followed just "took" the title for theirselves...

That includes Revan and all Sith (Sidious also) that followed Exar Kun. For sheer powers I'm quite undecided for the Sith that followed after the Battle of Ruusan. From the EU Darth Bane (who started the "New Sith" had learned from Freedon Nadds holocron and thereby he could have known as much of the Dark Side as Exar Kun (who learned from Freedon Nadds spirit). And if the things that Sidious in ROTS told Anakin about Darth Plagueis are true (very questionable) we might say that the Sith of that era are realy powerful.

Still that doesn't count for Sidious himself since he had to murder his master while he was sleeping. So he is probably much weaker than Plagueis although he appears to be very powerful in the Dark Empire comics (when he had his crystal).

In terms of "greatness" he is surely one of the greatests Sith. When it comes to political actions, diplomacy or manipulation he might be the greatest Sith ever. And after archieving his goal (rule over the Galaxy) he just let other people do the work (Vader, Tarkin, Thrawn) but he was not unquestioned or "absolute" in his reign like Ragnos was.

ROTS Anakin thought he could defeat Sidious. Later Vader (in ESB) thought he and Luke would be able to destroy him together and once Grand Admiral Zaarin started a major Rebellion against the Emperor (this was crushed by Thrawn).

When comparing Sidious to other Sith Lords we should always keep in mind that Sidious had control over the Republic (and thereby over most planets in the known galaxy) where other people (Sadow, Kun, Revan) had to fight AGAINST the Republic. So in terms of sheer power, tactical genious or fighting skills I personaly rate most other Sith Lords far higher than Sidious.

Nai, I'd just like to point out: Revan's acquiring of the Sith title isn't verified. He left known space and returned a full-fledged Sith lord. For all we know, he wrested the title from some Sith ruler beyond the Outer Rim. Point being, with him, the validity of his title as being handed down or "properly" awarded is in question, but is not unrealistic.

Tyrannus seems to be the most powerful.

Where'd you get that from now?

Originally posted by MAKASHIMAN
Tyrannus seems to be the most powerful. Will someone please put this retard out of his misery.

Tyranus is my personal favorite followed by maul..... but i wont give them the title of most powerful sith. but i dont think they get enough credit......they all died because of really bad reasons so we dont excatly know of what wuld happen if they were still alive. but heres my view on the matter of maul and tyranus(feel free to disagree):

Maul

if he hadnt been arrogant at the end of the battle and jus finished obi-wan off when he had the chance, i belive there is a slight possiblity that anakin perhaps wuld have never been trained, but then again because of his wonderous exploits on naboo i belive he wuld been trained by who i dont know....and if any better than obiwan wuld have it jus depends. as the future of the sith with maul and sidious.....well he wuld have continued maul's training but. im not sure of his plans for a clone army. when maul was killed, sidious had to improvise. so the questions of the sith is: what were sidious plans before maul was killed?

Count Dooku

well not many agree but thats only because they havent read the book on the movie, but it is true that Dooku lost to anakin on purpose, he was told by his master to only kill obi wan. i suppose he thought he had him down when he threw him across the throne room and made a balcony collapse on him. im not sure about that. as for his death, Palpatine's plans were different than what he had told dooku the. the real plan was to have him killed of by anakin. palpatine knew he was powerful but not enough to beat dooku with all his age and experience. the thought of having the choosen one on the dark side is probably btter than having an 80 yr old dark jedi master. Well why make the trade for anakin and dooku when dooku is still better? well anakin's exploits are many and he was very powerful at such a young age. all he need was more time training and experience and he wuld be great. palpatine said himself that dooku was a necessary loss, and that anakin wuld become more powerful then himself.and besides if the prophecy is true about anakin then he had to turn him to the dark side, for the fate of himself and the sith.

but now heres the thing. what wuld happen if dooku didnt hold back and jus killed both of them off. with the choosen one dead and the great general obi wan gone. all palpatine has to do is iniatie order 66. and lets be real palpatine can take on the enitre jedi council. no sweat... as can dooku can kill of all the jedi in the temple, of course with the help of the clones.

(takes a breath) ok now i know some if not most of you are gonna disagree but what im saying from all of this is that dooku and maul havent really had a big chance to shine, or just flat out blew it (maul)
and well we havent really seen them enough, so i think i wuld throw maul and dooku a bone and say that there up there with the anicent sith lords. it even said in wikipedia that dooku and/or NJO luke were second to Tulak hord in sheer lightsaber skill. it really makes me mad because i thought maul was great.....but is seems as though nobody likes him anymore, and his name jus gets tossed around like trash.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Nai, I'd just like to point out: Revan's acquiring of the Sith title isn't verified. He left known space and returned a full-fledged Sith lord. For all we know, he wrested the title from some Sith ruler beyond the Outer Rim. Point being, with him, the validity of his title as being handed down or "properly" awarded is in question, but is not unrealistic.

Well...
It's quite debateable. Who should have given him the title of a Dark Lord ? Sadow is dead, Nadd also (and his spirit is destroyed) and Exar Kuns spirit is on Yavin 4. That leaves Ragnos.

But we know that Ajunta Pall didn't recognize Revan to be the Dark Lord when he came across Ajuntas tomb. And Revan came to visit Ragnos tomb also, and I guess Ragnos should have given him a hint that he is the Dark Lord there if that title was "officialy" given to him.

For all we know Revan only visited Korriban and Malachor V. At this point the capital of the Sith Empire is already moved to Ziost. And the only Dark Lord who ever visited that place (as far as we know) was Sidious.

Actually Pall seems to remember Revan when Revan comes to the tomb probably for the second time. Its very possible that Ajunta gave Revan the title of Dark Lord of the Sith. If he did is another thing however.

Originally posted by Fishy
Actually Pall seems to remember Revan when Revan comes to the tomb probably for the second time. Its very possible that Ajunta gave Revan the title of Dark Lord of the Sith. If he did is another thing however.

Hmm...possible but very unlikely. Pall had the wish to become one with the force and he wanted Revan to remove his sword from the tomb to do so. If Revan did come across the tomb earlier, why shouldn't he have taken the sword or (other possibility) why didn't Ajunta attack him that time. I don't think that Ajunta developed the wish to become one with the force in the two years from Revans first search for the Star Forge to the second one in KotoR.

And for the other theory: If Revan ever visited the real Sith Empire before he lost his memories why should he go and "search" for it, already knowing where it was (since he recovered his memories in the end of KotoR) ? And why should he fight it, when he - officialy - already has the title of the Dark Lord. He could command the Sith around as he likes.

Maybe thats what we did, we know he went to the real Sith what he did there is unknown. But yeah its pretty unlikely that somebody gave Revan the title of Dark Lord. Still its far from imposible they were gone for a very long time. And Ragnos could have done it, he did it before. Kun could have done it although I doubt it. Its kinda hard to debate about this however because we just can not know.

And about Ajunta he looked confused as hell, he hardly has a memory. He can't even remember two years ago just barely. I don't really think it thats unlikely that he changed the way he feels in such a short time.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Nai, I'd just like to point out: Revan's acquiring of the Sith title isn't verified. He left known space and returned a full-fledged Sith lord. For all we know, he wrested the title from some Sith ruler beyond the Outer Rim. Point being, with him, the validity of his title as being handed down or "properly" awarded is in question, but is not unrealistic.

Revan is a self-proclaimed Sith Lord, but well deserving of the title, having plundered tons of Sith knowledge from Malachor V and being more than powerful enough.

I do believe Sidious was the greatest, and one of the most powerful Sith lords ever. I believe he could have shown the might that Revan and Malak did back in their times, however, Sidious knew that a direct assault on the Republic would not likely be successful. Therefore, he used the corruption and conquered the Republic from within. Only this way could the Sith bring down the Republic. Had Palpatine have raised an army and attacked, it would have been quite a fight, but ultimately it would have ended up like KOTOR with the Sith being defeated and the Republic triumphant.

Only if he would have been betrayed... And Sidious would not have been able to stand against all those Jedi.

first of all the person that said that--- marknos ragnos > tulak hord> ......... exar kun> revan....... > sidiuos--- dont know crap. acording to that scale if you continue on it it would be--- exar kun> revan > malak > all the other sith lords after it including revan. so that is crap and you should slap your self for saying that.

secoundly when has sidiuos showed us that he is weak in dueling? he may not be as good dueling as force user but he is only posibly the best force user that ever lived. that is why he tried to use the force against yoda and he knew that he would win. ( which of course he did)

thirdly no not everyone here bieleves that sidiuos is a coward( p.s. probably you will say every with a brain agrees like you did before , yes i mean you fishy)

Sidous is in no way the most powerful Force-user ever. NO way in hell. To name a few who are better; Luke, Revan, Exar, Ragnos, Yoda, Malak, Traya, Leia, etc.

WTF!? Exar and Leia arent better force users!

Exar Kun? And sorry for Leia. She could have been. Take her out. BUt Exar Kun? Do you know he is? Out of all the people on the list, you choose to argue about Kun?

maybe revan got his title from kriea didnt she give up the darkside if this is so then she would of passed the title to revan

Kun is powerful but his lightsaber skills are what make him so dominant

id say Vader becuase without anakin/vader sidious would be nothing, so id say they are tied for first, vader more intune w/the force (d side though) ans sidious with the saber, or visca versa, depending what generation fought wich one. like anny vs old sid, or old vader vs young sid.

Originally posted by beedubaya
I do believe Sidious was the greatest, and one of the most powerful Sith lords ever. I believe he could have shown the might that Revan and Malak did back in their times, however, Sidious knew that a direct assault on the Republic would not likely be successful. Therefore, he used the corruption and conquered the Republic from within. Only this way could the Sith bring down the Republic. Had Palpatine have raised an army and attacked, it would have been quite a fight, but ultimately it would have ended up like KOTOR with the Sith being defeated and the Republic triumphant. You're not the first to say this. Most people have noticed this, it was the basis for the entire prequel, including Naboo's invasion, if you work it out.

Originally posted by Aduruth
id say Vader becuase without anakin/vader sidious would be nothing, so id say they are tied for first, vader more intune w/the force (d side though) ans sidious with the saber, or visca versa, depending what generation fought wich one. like anny vs old sid, or old vader vs young sid. It's true that Vader hunted down most of the Jedi, but Palps, the old bugger, has proven to be one lazy SOB. He definetly could have done the job as well, even maybe better than, Vader. Sids corrupted Anakin, conquered the Republic, and would have killed Luke had Vader not turned on him. Hell the f*cker came back from the dead, but Vader didn't.

Originally posted by Clawed The Bum
first of all the person that said that--- marknos ragnos > tulak hord> ......... exar kun> revan....... > sidiuos--- dont know crap. acording to that scale if you continue on it it would be--- exar kun> revan > malak > all the other sith lords after it including revan. so that is crap and you should slap your self for saying that.

You should better read postings before giving some comment, idiot. You should slap yourself for not doing so.

And by the way: Ask some people if Revan is the strongest Sith Lord ever. If they actualy posess a little bit of knowledge they will tell you that Ragnos, Sadow, Nadd, Hord (for sure) and Exar Kun (maybe) will kill Revan in a duel.



a) He feared Yoda.
b) He won because he was lucky.
c) The best force user that ever lived ? Muhaha... NJO Luke would destroy him and any of the ancient Sith Lords would do that too.

Wow, you sure dish out the insults fast.

It's not a scale. It's the chronology of the Sith line.

And what's wrong if it is Kun>Revan>Malak>Revan? It just means that Revan had two tries at being Sith Lord with an intermission; hardly anything to blow a fuse about.



The guy that needs to build a damn death start to blow up Aldaraan is somehow greater in the force than a guy that can crush stars (Sadow), or a guy that can change worlds (Nadd), or a guy that can freeze the Senate (Kun). You sure seem to have your priorities mixed up.



Oh don't worry, Darth Windu, he obviously doesn't seem to consider making stars go supernova and walking into places and freezing hundreds of people a nice feat with the force.

Definately. Hm. Back to regarding Revan's crowning... Nai, you are including only the Sith lords we know. The Sith Empire is, last time I checked, 100,000 years old. In reference to what, I don't quite remember at this point. But the point is the line of Sith lords (Quoted from the Star Wars Encyclopedia as being "unbroken until the time of Sadow" must have been long. Any resting Sith lord with enough clout could recognize Revan as a successor. And since the Sith have a habit of building tombs for their greatest, to preserve their spirit, it's very likely that at least a fraction of those sith lords still exist.

Janus makes a very good point.

On the other hand Janus unless the knowledge was lost (very possible) The sith Lord that would have crowned Revan would not have been that amazing, I mean he sure as hell isn't known off to well. That hardly means anything he could have been far more powerful then Marka Ragnos but just forgotten about or the records of his history destroyed but still.

Why does everyone underestimate Sids I mean he could even beat Yoda. I know Yoda can't beat Revan but we all know that fight would go on for a long time. So if he can do that well against Revan then he might even win againt Exar Kun.

No. He would never beat Exar. Ever.

Did you see how well Yoda fights against Count Dooku one of the greatset Duelists of all time? Also I believe Yoda could defeat Ulic who fought Exar Kun to a standstill. So if Yoda is that powerful do you think Sids is if he can defeat him?

You overestimate Yoda and Sidious. Yoda is not a Sith Lord. Yes, he would defeat Ulic, maybe. But Exar? Never a chance in hell.

Exar became far more powerful after that fight, after he became DLOS. Yoda and Sidious might be able to kill a pre-Sith version of him, but after his crowning by Marka Ragnos? NO.

Originally posted by Fishy
Janus makes a very good point.

On the other hand Janus unless the knowledge was lost (very possible) The sith Lord that would have crowned Revan would not have been that amazing, I mean he sure as hell isn't known off to well. That hardly means anything he could have been far more powerful then Marka Ragnos but just forgotten about or the records of his history destroyed but still.

I had a whole response typed out and I hit some button and it poofed. I hate that.

Anyways, like real history, EU history is predominately scattered accounts, often from one source. I won't go so far as to say Revan was a legit Sith lord, but I will say one cannot rule it out based on what we know.

I mean, the list of Sith lords during this extended time period was lprobably larger than the entire roster of PT jedi. Consider that much.

OK.. this is how you end this Discussion.. Sidious is not SITH!

Sith is a Race! NOt stupid people like Count Dickhead and Sidious.
I hate Darth Bane for that Rule by two thing... because it's dumb.. there are not Sith lords... There are Dark Jedi who study sith Teachings but that's it...

Naga Sadow was the Greatest SITH ever.

Thats hardly how you end a discussion thats just a foolish statement.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
I had a whole response typed out and I hit some button and it poofed. I hate that.

Anyways, like real history, EU history is predominately scattered accounts, often from one source. I won't go so far as to say Revan was a legit Sith lord, but I will say one cannot rule it out based on what we know.

I mean, the list of Sith lords during this extended time period was lprobably larger than the entire roster of PT jedi. Consider that much.

Oh I know that, and I know that he could very well be declared a Sith Lord by a Lord of the Sith, i'm just doubting the power of one that could have possibly done it.

Well, since all we have is hearsay and half-accounts of the others, who's to say the Dark Lord or Lady who gave Revan the title wasn't the strongest? Perhaps Revan was given the title and sent back from the Unknown Regions to conquer the Republic for a still-living Sith lord or lady? We might never know.

Could very well be. Like I said it could be that he was more powerful then Ragnos but still we have no proof on any of it, just assumptions.

And making assumptions to make other assumptions seem more possible isn't really a good thing to do.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
You should better read postings before giving some comment, idiot. You should slap yourself for not doing so.

And by the way: Ask some people if Revan is the strongest Sith Lord ever. If they actualy posess a little bit of knowledge they will tell you that Ragnos, Sadow, Nadd, Hord (for sure) and Exar Kun (maybe) will kill Revan in a duel.

a) He feared Yoda.
b) He won because he was lucky.
c) The best force user that ever lived ? Muhaha... NJO Luke would destroy him and any of the ancient Sith Lords would do that too.

A) Yes he feared Yoda. Darth Sidious is a manipulative coward. He just took over the damn galaxy and had the Jedi Order wiped out. And then you see the granddaddy Jedi Master himself walk into your throne room - why stay and fight when you can risk dying? But Sidious did and both were evenly matched. Otherwise Yoda would've owned him and killed him. He did neither.

B) Nope. He wasn't lucky. It was a move made by Yoda which caused Sidious's victory. Yoda threw the lightning back at Sidious, and was thrown in return. It was actually stupidity on Yoda's part.

C) NJO Luke would obliterate just about everyone in one-on-one combat. Revan, Yoda, Sidious, Malak, Windu. All would bite the big one if they tried to take Luke on.

A) He feared Yoda because he knew he would lose from him in a fair fight, he tried to gain the upper hand in the fight and did.

B) That whats I would call lucky Yoda obviously did not expect the results, Sidious was lucky that it happened.

C) Based on absolutely nothing but loving him. Luke would not obliterate anybody, he would probably lose from a shit load of people.

Originally posted by Talos Naga
OK.. this is how you end this Discussion.. Sidious is not SITH!

Sith is a Race! NOt stupid people like Count Dickhead and Sidious.
I hate Darth Bane for that Rule by two thing... because it's dumb.. there are not Sith lords... There are Dark Jedi who study sith Teachings but that's it...

Naga Sadow was the Greatest SITH ever. Like I've said before, someone please put this retard out of his misery.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
A) Yes he feared Yoda. Darth Sidious is a manipulative coward. He just took over the damn galaxy and had the Jedi Order wiped out. And then you see the granddaddy Jedi Master himself walk into your throne room - why stay and fight when you can risk dying? But Sidious did and both were evenly matched. Otherwise Yoda would've owned him and killed him. He did neither.

B) Nope. He wasn't lucky. It was a move made by Yoda which caused Sidious's victory. Yoda threw the lightning back at Sidious, and was thrown in return. It was actually stupidity on Yoda's part.

C) NJO Luke would obliterate just about everyone in one-on-one combat. Revan, Yoda, Sidious, Malak, Windu. All would bite the big one if they tried to take Luke on.

A) Yeah, he feared Yoda. Who wouldn't in that time period. He'd just spent his entire life taking over the galaxy and bringing back the Sith. I don't think he'd want to die right away.

B) He wasn't lucky, really. He was smart. He sought the high ground and used it to his advantage. And you're right. Yoda was stupid. The smart thing to do would have been to stand there, get electrocuted, and get thrown a few hundred meters to his death. Oh yeah, that'd be great.

C) And Luke would not obliterate anyone. Revan would give him the fight of his life, Exar would probably kill him, and Ragnos would pummel him.

Originally posted by Fishy
Janus makes a very good point.

On the other hand Janus unless the knowledge was lost (very possible) The sith Lord that would have crowned Revan would not have been that amazing, I mean he sure as hell isn't known off to well. That hardly means anything he could have been far more powerful then Marka Ragnos but just forgotten about or the records of his history destroyed but still.

The thing is, you don't know. We have our very limited account of SW history by virtue of a few EU writers, but that's just that, until we have the entire compendium written, or until they create an actively immersed SW universe, you don't know. Simply because the author's haven't written about a past Sith Lord, doesn't mean he wasn't great. In that same whim, simply because a novel has not been written detailing Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow, does not mean they are not powerful.

You have to realize that our knowledge of the SW universe is extremely limited and fragmented, what we DON'T know can not be used to assume something. We can not assume that since we don't know other Sith Lord's names, they were not important or powerful.

Who knew about Revan before KotOR? Exactly.

Amen, brutha. Preach it.

Darth Windu, remind me to post my picture of "Darth Windu" when I get internet access at home tomorrow.

Kk. K.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Definately. Hm. Back to regarding Revan's crowning... Nai, you are including only the Sith lords we know. The Sith Empire is, last time I checked, 100,000 years old. In reference to what, I don't quite remember at this point. But the point is the line of Sith lords (Quoted from the Star Wars Encyclopedia as being "unbroken until the time of Sadow" must have been long. Any resting Sith lord with enough clout could recognize Revan as a successor. And since the Sith have a habit of building tombs for their greatest, to preserve their spirit, it's very likely that at least a fraction of those sith lords still exist.

The Sith Empire (or at least the title of the Dark Lord of the Sith) was set up 24,400 years BBY.

Think of the following point. The ability to remain as a spirit within the force is nothing "usual" at all. And it has nothing to do with the tombs.
The spirits of Kressh (who had a tomb on Dantooine), Tulak Hord (Korriban) and Naga Sadow never reappeared. And people like Nadd, Ajunta Pall or Ragnos bound their spirits on certain artifacts. Nadd did, Ajunta did with his sword, Ragnos probably did so with his scepter and Kun drained the Massasi to remain as a spirit on Yavin 4.

For the fraction: From 1000 generations of Jedi there were only 4 (!) able to remain as spirit in the force: Obi-Wan (for 10 years), Yoda (unknown), Qui-Gon (unknown) and Anakin (still around in NJO times). It's pretty unlikely that there would be spirits of Dark Lords on Korriban left except the ones we know (Rangos; Pall) and since the Sith Empire moved his capital from Korriban to Ziost there would be no other place to find Sith spirits.

And it's very unlikely that Revan travelled to the "real" Sith territory before the KotoR events since he never used the resources of the Sith Empire against the Republic.

Last but not least: The title of the Dark Lord was always passed from the "former" generation to the next somehow. Sadow recieved his title from Ragnos, Nadd destroyed Sadow (thereby becoming Dark Lord), and it was Kun who destroyed Nadds spirit (although Ragnos declared him to be the Dark Lord).

Now...if Revan wanted that title "officialy" the only "logical" way would be to visit Yavin 4 and destroy Kun what he did not do. So...in my personal oppinion Kun is the last "real" Dark Lord of the Sith.

The rest is pretty much up to speculation. There could have been a "official" Dark Lord on Ziost during Revans times who he could fight to get that title but: Why should there be one ? There is only one Dark Lord at a time and that means: If there was a Dark Lord on Ziost, Exar and Nadd could never have been Dark Lords.

Not necessarily, they were both declared kings by something far more powerful then what would be on Ziost. Their reign should not be disputed by anybody in another place.

But Exar Kun could have declared Revan as the Dark Lord, Maybe Ragnos did again. He did not necessarily have to fight for his title, and we don't know if there are any other spirits or not. I'm pretty sure we will find out about some soon enough.

Sadly... (no offense) I agree with Emp. Revan

Naga, Hord, and Ragnos, were great TRUE Sith Lords..

That is what my Arguement ALWAYS is... See... there is A Difference. Sith, is a race of people.

There are Dark Jedi who study the ways of the Sith.. Like Kun and Revan and soo on.. My Agrueement is Revan was not Sith.. He was a Dark Jedi who study Sith ways.. Am I right?

That's the only point I am trying to get across...

Other than that.. Revan was badass.

Dark Jedi do not study the ways of the Sith. Dark Jedi have their own beliefs just like Sith and Jedi have their own beliefs.

(Zombie) Kreia's words are not law!

Ok.. The Academy on Korriban... Your telling me they are all sith? lol.. not any of them have an ounce of Sith blood on them..

Please tell me someone gets what I am saying..
Sith is a race?
Not A way you call people who run around with Red Lightsabers.

Originally posted by Talos Naga
Ok.. The Academy on Korriban... Your telling me they are all sith? lol.. not any of them have an ounce of Sith blood on them..

Please tell me someone gets what I am saying..
Sith is a race?
Not A way you call people who run around with Red Lightsabers.

wrong...

Sith used to be a race, then it became a religion. Sith is a religion everybody can be a Sith.

WTF? A religon When was this?

About the time of Ajunta Pall.

Sidiuos is the hairy nairly man with the good stuff yeah man, yeah man.

You are a strange one

The Sith religion, of course, is just the Sith Lords and Darths and such. Came about when Dark Jedi interbred with the Sith race.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
You should slap yourself thinking we're dumb if we don't think Ragnos, Sadow, Nadd, Hord, and Kun would kill Revan in a duel. Kun is the only one with a good argument and Ragnos sort of has one. As for the others, give me a break. Kreia says Hord was the best duelist in a time of great duelists and he's suddenly all powerful and can't be beat? Yeah right. She also says Revan is power, and the heart of the Force which would naturally be undefeatable so why do you think Hord would kill him just because Kreia gave him a compliment?


First off: I don't think anybody who don't thinks that the ancient Sith Lords can defeat revan is dumb. A lack of information is not indicating a lack of intelligence.



Sadow was the most powerful member of the Sith priesterhood (Dark Side practioners / Sith magicians) in his time so he is a very powerful force user without any question. For his fighting abilities: Well...from his appearance in the comics you can say that he is physically strong (just take a look at his muscles and at the sword he wields) and we know that he - as a spirit - was nearly powerful enough to kill Freedon Nadd. And to keep that in mind: Exar Kun needed an artifact to destroy Nadds spirit.

That leaves the conclusion that Nadd has to be more powerful than Kun (even as a spirit) and Sadow was even more powerful. So if you think that Exar might be able to take Revan, Sadow and Nadd are for sure.



Well...he conquered Onderon and Dxun very much on his own and he was able to kill people (including Jedi) armed with a short lightsaber and a goddamn blaster. Even as a spirit he was able to kill King Ommin easily who was powerful enough to defeat Arca Jeth.

For Ragnos:
Yes, he manipulated his enemies into fighting each other. Is that the only thing you kept in mind from KotoR ? Kreia also said that he posessed unbelieveable strength physically and also with the force and his death nearly led to a civil war because of the vacuum he left. And she also gave the information that such civil wars or just duels to compare strength were normal in that days of the Sith Empire.

And that means Ragnos had to go through civil wars as well as through duels to archive his title as a dark lord. You can argue that people simply feared him in later times because he reigned for such a long time - but with the rules of the Sith Empire and the fact that they realy challenged each other in a normal situation just to see who is stronger, it's very questionable that Ragnos was never challenged. And still he had to fight for his title.

Ragnos feared the Republic because the Dark Jedi that started the Sith Empire were defeated by the Jedi. He basicaly thought the Jedi would still be more powerful than the Sith and didn't want to risk the Sith Empire. That was neither weakness nor stupidity. It was a lack of information basicaly. And think of the following point: He was absolutely right. Any Sith Lord that tried to conquer the galaxy failed in that task because of the Jedi.

Sadow did, Kun did, Revan did and Palpatine (at the end) did as well.
Now for that prophecy: Kun failed because of Ulics betrayal and I think if people like Revan or Yoda can't just see into the future as they like why should Ragnos be able to do so ?

For Tulak Hord:
And again it seems that people didn't listen to the things said in KotoR. Kreia is saying that any of the ancient Sith Lords would make people in KotoR times look like children fighting each other with toys when it comes to a duel (so that also counts for Ragnos and Sadow). Tulak Hord was the greatest duelist among those people. We know, that Revan learned his fighting style from Tulak Hords holocron. Now think about it: Who would be more powerful in a lightsaber duel. The creator of a form who had practiced it for his entire life or somebody who learned the same form from a holocron practicing it for some years.

Now just think of the following point:
We are talking about people (exception Kun and Nadd) that grew up in a enviroment were they constantly had to fight other force users just to rise through the rangs. So everyone of them probably fought more powerful people than Revan did before claiming the title of a Dark Lord (combat skill) and they all would have had access to greater knowledge or at least the same amount than Revan had access to but more time to study it (force knowledge).

So I'm not saying they will beat Revan because they come from a earlier time period. I think they will beat him because of the circumstances they grew up and lived in. It's like taking somebody from Europe or the USA who trained Shaolin Kung-Fu to a "master" status and throw him into a fight with a Shaolin Monk. Who will win ? I'd bet the monk because what the Shaolin Master trained is the very "essence" of the Shaolin Monks life.

And that's my view on the Sith Lords: What other people trained just to become more powerful (Sith magic) is their very basical way of living. Thereby I have to say that any of the "real" Sith Lords can take any of the "dark siders" that followed because the people that followed weren't trained for their entire life in the ways of the Sith and they didn't experience the situation of being constantly challenged for "their" place in a society of force users.

Nai, I've been saying that since February. Nice homework, again.

I think that you are forgeting the fact that all of those anciet sith lords before revan died and have no more things that they can do that are impressive. Revan never died yet. (makeing up numbers) lets say that babe bruth did 1000 home runs in proffesinal baseball. lets say a baseball player that is still alive did 900 home runs. this base ball player can still do more home runs, but can also be perminantly injured and not do any more. so no body should slap no body and we should all hug each other and kiss each other

No.

While I support the idea that the Sith of old would make the Sith of PT and OT times look like pansies, it kind of takes the grandeur out of Palpatine...

palpatine is the best sith EVA. Goal of sith: conquer galaxie. Only one to reach that: palpatine

Goal of Marka Ragnos: Reign and stay away from the Republic. He pulled it off too.

Originally posted by Clawed The Bum
palpatine is the best sith EVA. Goal of sith: conquer galaxie. Only one to reach that: palpatine

Oh...did he reach it ?
He failed in the end because of the Rebellion or - at least - because of two Jedi left (Obi-Wan and Yoda) to train the galaxies last hope. He failed like any other Sith did before him.

The only Sith that realy archieved his goals was Ragnos where all others were stoped by arrogance, circumstances or betrayal.

Palpatine somewhat managed his goal; he did away with the Republic and nearly eradicated the Jedi permanently. But then...he died.

Anakin was practically composed of the force, does that mean he's unbeatable? That hardly holds water. Vodo called Kun his greatest pupil, and he's 600 years old, does that mean he's the all time best? My professor said I'm the most talented student he's taught, does that mean I should run down the street and laugh and point? Hardly. You're taking Kreia's word as law, the SAME Kreia that mentioned Ragnos' incredible strength and force wielding abilities, Tulak's incredible lightsaber skills, and then illustrious menace of ancient Sith.

Why do you keep bringing up Kreia's compliment to Revan, but ignore whatever is mentioned about the power of the Ancient Sith?



Sith Magic was pretty powerful; and it's not like it was readily learned. As mentioned, Sadow was a member of the Sith Priests, and he was in the mold of Simus, considered the most powerful Sith fighter of his day until guess who came along? Ragnos.

That should tell you a thing or two about Ancient Sith. I'll take their Sith magic, alchemy, and old techniques over Jedi teachings anyday.



Oh except conquering a planet and fashioning his own army, but I guess it's nothing important. And also he proved to be the corrupter and nemesis of Exar Kun in spirit form. Nothing important.



Look at the individuals you named. "Revan, Malak, Palpatine, Vader".

Do you notice the trend there? They were AFTER the height of the Sith Empire. What's the Sith Empire's #1 motto? The strongest shall rule. So given that Ragnos ruled for over a century, what does that tell you about him?

Besides, if Palpatine has "cunning" because he took over the galaxy, Ragnos is pretty smart for pulling a fast one on all the other Sith.



Ragnos did beat Simus, and do you really believe that you can rule for a century and not face any opposition? Did the Black Sea part for his leisure? Seriously.

Also, Ragnos' goal was NOT to conquer the Galaxy, he made NO ATTEMPT at doing it, that doesn't make him weaker than people who have attempted it. It's not like everyone else, where he attempted and failed. Also, Revan did not conquer the galaxy, he didn't do it, he scared the crap out of the galaxy, but he didn't conquer it. It's in the same mold that Kun could have probably conquered the galaxy if not for Ulic. Close doesn't give you the loot.

As for Kun's spirit, he absorbed the whole Massassi race, made them extinct, in order to encase his spirit, you'd think he'd be a little bit stronger than Ragnos' spirit. Ragnos's spirit also was 1000 years older, he did crown Exar, stop Ludo and Naga's fight, and infest a body -- albeit a body that was already beaten up. Obi-Wan's spirit lasted 10 years, Ragnos' spirit that lasted over 5000 does seem pretty impressive by comparison, especially considering he didn't kill off a race (as far as we know) to do it, don't you think?



Besides this being one giant run on sentence; this just gleams into the perspective of the Ancient Sith. You use this example of Revan being powerful because he plundered, killed, and fought for 6 years straight -- guess what? Ancient Sith lords would be fighting for their entire lives, you could walk down the street to the Kwik-E-Mart and find lethal guy with a saber/sword, does that mean that we should award the Ancient Sith victory by default? One of the primary arguments is that people in war, like Malak or Revan, would beat people at peace, like Mace or Yoda, so why wouldn't this argument work for individuals that fought for a living?



We don't have the career figures about the Ancient Sith. Everything we DO know about them tells us they are very powerful, but we don't know every detail. Unlike Babe Ruth, whom we KNOW hit 714 homeruns, we don't KNOW the full depth of the power of ancient Sith Lords like Ragnos, Sadow, Hord, Nadd, etc. If we knew everything about them, you can say, sure Revan isn't dead yet, so he can continue doing things.

Nai, good research as always, great points. Thumbs up.

True words Illustrious, true words. I think we all seem to momentarily forget the fact that the Ancient Sith, the Middle Ages Sith (Exar-Revan) and the New Order Sith, are all figments of our imagination. The guys who created these ideas, created them over a 20 year span. They are just human as well as we, they can make mistakes in piecing together all this information. When making the KOTOR games and the like, the writers did their homework, studied the history and were able to create a brand new character that fitted in to galactic history. Of course, as is the goal of these designers, they design new characters that must always top the last ones, just so they seem fresh and exciting. I doubt very much that these men and women actually sat down and created a list of who's strongest from top to bottom.

In our debates about who's strongest, we shouldn't be focusing on how much they conquered, how they conquered it, and what they did to ensure their conqueree remained the conquered. This goes for their own people, enemy people, friends and other miscellaneous groups.

Marko...MARKO, yes we've all been spelling it wrong with an A, Marko Ragnos defeated this Simus and ruled over an already subjugated populace. He most likely DID have an overabundance of power, and after seeing him defeat another Dark Lord and seize the mantle, noone else is going to wanna challenge him. However, other than that, we've been given no examples of his power. Yes, he did last five millenia and yes he scared the scrotum off Sadow and Kressh and took over Tavion's body, but it gives no indication of his ACTUAL power like is shown when struggling for one's life against another foe of equal power.

Naga Sadow may not have been as powerful as Mr. Ragnos but he did show his strength in pulling that star's core out. He may have scared the Republic and destroyed much in his war, but it was his fleet that did that, not him personally, and he lost, doesn't say much for his strategic skills. We never saw him and his Force minions confront the Jedi army one on one, then we would most definetly see his Power.

Exar Kun is of obvious strength. He paralyzed the senate chambers' inhabitants, which included a number of Jedi masters, and sent his pupils to kill them. He may have zapped the Masassi of life, but who's to say that no other Sith couldn't have done, or HASN'T done that? I bet alot of them could if they put the effort into it, or maybe they didn't have the opurtunity at the moment. Maybe Exar DID put a lot of effort into and didn't just do it with a flick of his wrist like it is made to seem almost.

Revan...Revan, Revan.........REVAN! He had brilliant tacticianing skills, that is indisputable, that makes him valuable and a worthy foe. But what makes a Sith Lord a Sith Lord isn't just his gift in miliatry co-ordination, it's his pure, raw, STRENGTH and POWER! If you were to put him in real life(Ha ha, funny) Star Wars, then he would go down with a slash of a sabre, remember that. He killed the non-Force sensitive Mandalore, killed many non-Force sensitive enemies, we can't deny that he was a great dueler and Force practisioner. But since we are comparing Sith Lords from across the ages, we don't know what his status would be comapred to the Sith of ancient times. I mean really, think about it.

The one problem is that we don't know the true extent of Revan's power other than what we can see in a computer game. I swear someone needs to right a book for KOTOR sort of like the Baldur's Gate books.

The Baldur's Gate books sucked horribly.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
The Baldur's Gate books sucked horribly.

I thought so to, but I think it was a good idea that failed.

If KOTOR books need to be written, I demand either Sean Stewart or James Luceno write them. Or maybe Steve Barnes.

Originally posted by darth-yoda
maybe revan got his title from kriea didnt she give up the darkside if this is so then she would of passed the title to revan

Kreia went to Malachor V after Revan came back with the Sith Fleets, not before.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
If KOTOR books need to be written, I demand either Sean Stewart or James Luceno write them. Or maybe Steve Barnes. I'd like to see how Stephen King perceives KOTOR.

Originally posted by Tangible God
I'd like to see how Stephen King perceives KOTOR.

The horror version of KotOR.

Stephen King I would hate to let write the KOTOR series books. I'm irked enough that he writes books at all.

Originally posted by darthrevan89
The one problem is that we don't know the true extent of Revan's power other than what we can see in a computer game.

Well...what would that do ? If someone writes a novel about Revan and suddenly he can blow up planets or things like that people (including me) will immediatly start arguing that guys like Ragnos, Sadow or Hord could do the same stuff (and do so with reason).

I'm only thinking about "conditions" when it comes to duels not about thinks that characters realy did. Because we can't know what some characters are able to do. Has Yoda enough force power to destroy a planet ? We'll never know because he would never try to do something like that.

And if we want to compare Revan to the ancient Sith Lords we have to keep following things in mind:

- he wasn't trained from infancy on (the Jedi started to do so past the Ruusan reformation) - the ancient Sith were
- he didn't grow up in a enviroment that constantly challenged him (in physical and mental ways) - the ancient Sith did
- In terms of physical power he is by far not as impressive as the ancient Sith are (makes a different if you fight with a lightsaber or with a "real" saber)
- he has no real "background" to explain his powers or abilities (at least the rules and history of the Sith Empire are some background for people like Ragnos or Sadow).

That are some "conditions" that Revan can't simply have. All that the people responsible for the KotoR games can do is:

a) Give us more background information on Revan
b) Make him do even more impressive things than he did in his career as far as we know it today

And I don't think that things like that would give him the edge on any of the ancient Sith Lords as long as the game developers don't come up with another (nearly) unbelieveable background story (another "Chosen One" conceived by the force itself...stuff like that).

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
First off: I don't think anybody who don't thinks that the ancient Sith Lords can defeat revan is dumb. A lack of information is not indicating a lack of intelligence.

Sadow was the most powerful member of the Sith priesterhood (Dark Side practioners / Sith magicians) in his time so he is a very powerful force user without any question. For his fighting abilities: Well...from his appearance in the comics you can say that he is physically strong (just take a look at his muscles and at the sword he wields) and we know that he - as a spirit - was nearly powerful enough to kill Freedon Nadd. And to keep that in mind: Exar Kun needed an artifact to destroy Nadds spirit.

That leaves the conclusion that Nadd has to be more powerful than Kun (even as a spirit) and Sadow was even more powerful. So if you think that Exar might be able to take Revan, Sadow and Nadd are for sure.

Well...he conquered Onderon and Dxun very much on his own and he was able to kill people (including Jedi) armed with a short lightsaber and a goddamn blaster. Even as a spirit he was able to kill King Ommin easily who was powerful enough to defeat Arca Jeth.

For Ragnos:
Yes, he manipulated his enemies into fighting each other. Is that the only thing you kept in mind from KotoR ? Kreia also said that he posessed unbelieveable strength physically and also with the force and his death nearly led to a civil war because of the vacuum he left. And she also gave the information that such civil wars or just duels to compare strength were normal in that days of the Sith Empire.

And that means Ragnos had to go through civil wars as well as through duels to archive his title as a dark lord. You can argue that people simply feared him in later times because he reigned for such a long time - but with the rules of the Sith Empire and the fact that they realy challenged each other in a normal situation just to see who is stronger, it's very questionable that Ragnos was never challenged. And still he had to fight for his title.

Ragnos feared the Republic because the Dark Jedi that started the Sith Empire were defeated by the Jedi. He basicaly thought the Jedi would still be more powerful than the Sith and didn't want to risk the Sith Empire. That was neither weakness nor stupidity. It was a lack of information basicaly. And think of the following point: He was absolutely right. Any Sith Lord that tried to conquer the galaxy failed in that task because of the Jedi.

Sadow did, Kun did, Revan did and Palpatine (at the end) did as well.
Now for that prophecy: Kun failed because of Ulics betrayal and I think if people like Revan or Yoda can't just see into the future as they like why should Ragnos be able to do so ?

For Tulak Hord:
And again it seems that people didn't listen to the things said in KotoR. Kreia is saying that any of the ancient Sith Lords would make people in KotoR times look like children fighting each other with toys when it comes to a duel (so that also counts for Ragnos and Sadow). Tulak Hord was the greatest duelist among those people. We know, that Revan learned his fighting style from Tulak Hords holocron. Now think about it: Who would be more powerful in a lightsaber duel. The creator of a form who had practiced it for his entire life or somebody who learned the same form from a holocron practicing it for some years.

Now just think of the following point:
We are talking about people (exception Kun and Nadd) that grew up in a enviroment were they constantly had to fight other force users just to rise through the rangs. So everyone of them probably fought more powerful people than Revan did before claiming the title of a Dark Lord (combat skill) and they all would have had access to greater knowledge or at least the same amount than Revan had access to but more time to study it (force knowledge).

So I'm not saying they will beat Revan because they come from a earlier time period. I think they will beat him because of the circumstances they grew up and lived in. It's like taking somebody from Europe or the USA who trained Shaolin Kung-Fu to a "master" status and throw him into a fight with a Shaolin Monk. Who will win ? I'd bet the monk because what the Shaolin Master trained is the very "essence" of the Shaolin Monks life.

And that's my view on the Sith Lords: What other people trained just to become more powerful (Sith magic) is their very basical way of living. Thereby I have to say that any of the "real" Sith Lords can take any of the "dark siders" that followed because the people that followed weren't trained for their entire life in the ways of the Sith and they didn't experience the situation of being constantly challenged for "their" place in a society of force users.

Excellent points Nai. I might skip around a bit in my rebuttal.

1. To my knowledge we don't even know if Sadow's spirit was destroyed by Freedon but it's most likely, yet I don't know why you think Sadow's spirit was close to Freedon's power. Next, if that is true, Nadd still got quite a bit more powerful after that and Kun was kind of wussy until he got the amulet that increases his power. With that he destroyed Freedon's spirit almost easily and got quite a few more Sith artifacts and knowledge since then, increasing his power even further. So no, I don't think that Sadow can defeat Kun at his max.

2. Like I said, Nadd's spirit hasn't done anything extraordinary.

3. Kreia said Ragnos possessed immense physical strength and power in the Force, not unbelievable. So what, She also says Revan was power, staring at him was like staring into the heart of the Force and this was Revan before the Mandalorian war and the Revan at his peak would probably be 3 or more times more powerful than the Revan she knew.
Next, she did NOT say your little quote about civil wars and constant duels so I would appreciate it if you don't put that in your posts. (Or correct me with where she said it if you're 100% sure you're right.)

4. As for Ragnos' ascension to power, he merely had to battle another for the title, I can't remember his name at the moment but he lost but didn't die.

5. Next, you've got a good point on why Ragnos didn't attack the Republic but Revan was not stopped by Jedi. He had the galaxy at his feet with less than a hundred Jedi left (most of whom stopped being Jedi, at least for the time being.) He merely chose to leave the known regions for he knew who the true fight was against.

6. The prophecy was just me showing that Ragnos wasn't the god some people make him out to be. Palpatine's predictions were almost always right.

7. Again you take Kreia's words on things from a thousand years ago to be true. She also said Revan was the heart of the Force and she knew him but does that quote not count all of a sudden? Besides, she is comparing them in general which the average dark Jedi or Sith Lord would be stronger than the average dark Jedi or Sith Lord in Revan's time. It doesn't mean the strongest Sith Lord in Revan's time would be defeated by the weakest Sith Lord of ancient times. I would like to point out that Revan had no trouble whatsoever in defeating Pall's spirit (who could use the Force and had a weapon), and he tripled his power or more since that time. You also said Pall's power would be much greater than Ragnos since he was from the powerful time so if Kun's power only doubled or so since he defeated Nadd's spirit who's weaker than Sadow who's weaker than Ragnos (you said) who would look like nothing compared to Pall, then Revan at the time he defeated Pall's spirit and was still rather weak would easily crush full power Kun like it was nothing.

8. Revan constantly fought other Force users and I would bet he fought more than the others you mentioned. (Combat experience) and I don't think they had all the information from Malachor V or their base would've been there. Thus, Revan has a planet sized sith storehouse of knowledge that the others never had. (Force knowledge)

9. Who do you consider a "true sith" and who do you consider a "dark sider"?

Revan crushing Pall his spirit means nothing to me, Pall was dead for what 6000? or 16.000 years? Just look at how weak Ragnos became in 5000? Kun absorbed an entire race before he died and even he probably got weaker in those 4000 years... Pall surviving for such a long time and still being better then a lot of people really impresses me.

Anyways this is really a debate we can not get an answer on. Some people think the reputations speak for themselves and IMO they are right others seem to challenge them because the reputations are build on a lot of unknowns. Well we will just all have to think about what we are doing right now, its not like we are going to convince anybody otherwise.

But just one thing I would like to point out.

Obi Wan his spirit lasted about 10 years... That of Ragnos lasted 5000, that of Kun lasted 4000 and that of Ajunta Pall 6000 to 16.000 imagine how much powerful they would be compared to Obi Wan.

Emperor, Kreia DOES say as much about Kreia. Play Korriban again.

Fishy, Jedi don't last as spirits for as long because of their ideals. Jedi believe in harmony and the unifying or living Force... Sith and dark jedi are individualists with a perchant for causing hell.

Could be...

Obi only stays around long enough to make sure Luke is on his way, and then his purpose is done. He lets go.

Exar Kun and others, however, aren't ready to let go.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
1. To my knowledge we don't even know if Sadow's spirit was destroyed by Freedon but it's most likely, yet I don't know why you think Sadow's spirit was close to Freedon's power. Next, if that is true, Nadd still got quite a bit more powerful after that and Kun was kind of wussy until he got the amulet that increases his power. With that he destroyed Freedon's spirit almost easily and got quite a few more Sith artifacts and knowledge since then, increasing his power even further. So no, I don't think that Sadow can defeat Kun at his max.


Yes. You're right on that point. But it is known that Nadd wanted to destroy Sadows spirit and he was alive after he wanted to do so. Well...that leaves the conclusion that Nadd did defeat Sadows spirit or at least thought he did so.
After that Nadd went to Korriban gathering Sith artifacts and then he went to Onderon to conquer the planet on his own and he singlehandly defeated the beast masters (also on his own). The Jedi sended an entire army to destroy him and still he was able to remain as a spirit on Onderon.

As a spirit Nadd instantly killed King Ommin when he thought it was time to do so and Ommin himself was powerful enough to defeat Arca Jeth and keep him as a prisoner. After doing so Nadd preserved his spirit in a Sith artifact and he controlled and manipulated Kun who discovered that artifact until Exar found the Sith Amulets hidden on Yavin 4 and thereby becoming powerful enough to destroy Nadds spirit.

Now think of the following points:

a) Kuns spirit is clearly not as powerful as the spirits of Ragnos (who could control another force user) or Nadd (who could instant kill other force users).
b) Kun was only powerful enough when he had the Sith Amulett...well those things belonged to Sadow. So Sadow at his peak would posess these Amulets and would have been much more used to fighting and Sith magic than Kun, Nadd or Revan. Still think they can take him ?

And think of it: Do you think Jaden Korr would have any chance to defeat a living Ragnos at the peak of his power because he defeated his spirit ?



See above...



Well...First off: Since I'm from Germany I only have the german copys of the KotoR games making it hard to compare things. Since the english version is the original one I will stick to the things said there. So if I'm contradicting them somewhere just tell me.

a) In the german version of KotoR 2 she referes to Ragnos amount of physical strength and strength with the force as "unglaublich" (meaning unbelievable) when you are in front of his tomb.

b) When you ask her to tell you more about Ragnos she starts talking about Kressh and Sadow. She says that you are near the place were their first duel happened and that their actions nearly led to a civil war - because Ragnos left a vacuum of power. Then (again you can ask her to tell you more) she says that civil wars and duels were not uncommon among the Sith and they always were fighting each other to find out who was the strongest - even though those actions threatened the Sith Empire itself.

c) Yes. She refered to Revan as the "heart of the force". Well...what does that mean ? She can only tell something about his potential since he isn't some very powerful person during the time he knew him. Keeping that in mind that just can mean he had a great force potential. Well...we saw what happened to Anakin.



Simius afaik. Still...if you don't have to kill an opponent to beat him you show more "power" as somebody who has to kill people to defeat them.



At least his plan (to conquer the galaxy) failed because of Bastila and her battle meditation. And Bastila was a Jedi Knight. What he did after that point is unknown and if he failed in his task to destroy the Sith Empire is also.



Well...Ragnos isn't god as well as no other known force user is. And Palpatines predictions ? Erm...no. He predicted more than one time that Maul would defeat any Jedi...ups. He predicted that Luke will never have the power to end his reign over the galaxy...ups. He predicted that Vader would never turn against him...ups. He was a good planner, yes but not that great in "prediction".



As I said before. The spirit of a Sith Lord is nothing compared to the "real" Sith Lord. Imagine Pall alive with all his power, all his artifacts and his saber that was so powerful that he himself couldn't control it's powers.

And well...Palls spirit (as he was one of the first Sith Lords) must be running around in that tomb for more than 20,000 years. And he is just around because his spirit is bound to his sword. Well...Kun bound his spirit to the ruins on Yavin 4 by draining an entire race and after 4,000 years he is far weaker than Kun alive. Now imagine how much power the spirit of Pall would have lost after 20,000 years or Sadows spirit after 600 (Freedon Nadds time) or Nadds spirit after 400 years (Kuns time) or Ragnos spirit in the time of Jaden Korr (more than 5,000 years.

And...Kreia (at least in the german version) says: "If you would have to face one of the ancient Sith Lords in a duel they would make us look as children fighting each other with toys". So she referes to the Exile and herself not to an average Jedi...and even if that is the case:
How much more powerful do you have to be to make somebody else look as if he is a child ?



A) Fighting for 6 years (as Revan did) is nothing compared to a life filled with fights. The ancient Sith constantly fought for their entire lifetime (easily more than hundret years) and did so against other force users only.
B) They had access to an entire Empire filled with information. Korriban, Malachor V, Ziost - those places did belong to the Sith Empire at least to the time of Naga Sadow.



A true Sith would be somebody who followed the ways of that "religion" or "cult" in every way for his entire life. In this case that would be all Dark Lords before Sadow and maybe those people that followed the Battle of Ruusan. Note that this says nothing about their power and also note that - following that oppinion - at least Dooku and Vader were no real "Sith".

In the English version there is a part (And I've tested it on several games) where Kreia tells about Ragnos using his cunning to keep the Sith infighting. This is in relation to the Exile's optional question regarding civil war.

Nai: Didn't know you had the german version, sorry for any miscommunication there. Nevertheless, in the english version she merely says tremendous strength.

You don't know how powerful Kun's spirit was do you? He instantly killed a Force user too, one that didn't do too bad in combat against Luke. He also Force choked twelve padawans at the same time, but then they resisted it. He helped Kyp Durron rip Luke's spirit from his body and helped Kyp ressurect the Suncrusher from the core of Yavin. Now yes he had drained the power of the entire massassi race, but Ragnos' spirit was charged with Force energy from dozens of different locations so his spirit was fully powered as well and even in the body of a not too shabby Force user and with a Sith sword, he still lost to a Jedi knight. Kun's spirit on the other hand, required 12 padawan's, Luke's spirit, and Vodo's spirit COMBINING their power and two lightsabers to destroy Kun's spirit (who wasn't in a Force user and didn't have a weapon like Ragnos.) And no, I don't think Jaden has any chance to defeat Ragnos but I think the spirit has a portion of the original power.

So Sadow had the amulet, he still didn't defeat anyone. A lot of good that did him.

You yourself said that Pall with his immense power couldn't handle his blade. Yet, Revan can.

As for Kreia's quote about the ancient Sith she never knew in a time she wasn't in, let's assume just for argument's sake that she's always right (except about Revan being power and the heart of the Force of course) If they made everyone look like children, then why is it that Pall lost pathetically to the Revan who was far from his peak? Nadd's spirit still whooped up on Kun until Kun got the amulet. Now if Pall's spirit makes Freedon's spirit look like a child, then why couldn't Pall beat the weak Revan when Nadd could defeat the weak Kun? Did I mention Pall had his powerful sword and Nadd only used the Force? It doesn't make any sense unless Revan is WAY stronger than Kun or of course if Kreia is wrong.

What makes you think Malachor V and Ziost were in the Sith empire? Never mentioned in any official source to my knowledge. Plus, I thought Ragnos ONLY ruled over Korriban and they didn't even have hyperspace technology or somesuch.

I'll get back to you eventually on what Kreia says about the Sith fighting constantly every day. How many Sith existed in the empire anyway? On a side note though and having nothing to do with the debate, if they were fighting so much, it's hard to believe they kept up the population so well especially when you don't see many Sith women.

Again, you're reaching. We know for sure that Ragnos defeated Simus, but we aren't sure if that alone got him to the throne. Is it possible he had to defeat other individuals to secure his reign? Yes. Is is possible that he faced other threats to his power? Absolutely, and it is very likely. The fact that he, like Janus said, used his cunning to pit other Sith against each other meant that there were certainly threats against him, he just was smart enough to avoid them and/or powerful enough to swat them away. This just shows he's cunning, immensely powerful physically, and has an extremely powerful grasp on the force. He was fearsome enough to scare the pants off Sadow and Kressh, two very capable Sith in their own right.



As mentioned before, being able to bring the galaxy to "his feet" doesn't necessarily mean you're powerful. Sidious literally did have the galaxy under his feet, but that doesn't mean he could outduel the ancient Sith. No one questions Revan's tactical prowess, but to simply claim he's greater than all the Ancient Sith because he slashed around a few force users and beat up on some old Sith spirits doesn't show much.



I'll defer to Nai on his take on Palpatine's predictions -- that seems pretty accurate. As for Ragnos being god, no, he certainly wasn't. But he was as close to a God the Sith ever had.



Sure it counts, but you have to take it in perspective. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon called Anakin the chosen one repeatedly, Vodo called Kun the greatest he's ever trained, etc. etc. The fact that you have the teacher singing praises about their student doesn't show much; in fact, a teacher is MORE INCLINED to talk good about their apprentices/pupils than about some random person they've heard about from 1000 years ago.



So? Jaden Korr fought a bunch of reborn remnants and the disciples of Ragnos over and over and over again, he slayed hundreds (if you follow the game counts), but that doesn't mean he/she's a superb Jedi/Sith.

Revan certainly did kill a lot, he certainly is talented and powerful, but to deal in absolutes by claiming he was greater than the Ancient Sith is being silly. The Ancient Sith would fight for their ENTIRE lives, many times spanning over a century-- that's far larger in scale that Revan's 6 years of combat experience.



Kreia also touts about Ragnos' physical strength and grasp on the force. In a galaxy of hundreds of species, what defines "immense physical strength"?

You've used this quote several times. I don't believe it's too accurate. Was his spirit charged up a bit? Yes, but how do you KNOW he was at full strength? Even if he was empowered, you stiill have to remember his spirit is over 5000 years old.



You don't KNOW the specifics of whom he defeated. But given his enviroment and being the Dark Lord of the Sith, I'm sure he had his fair share of challengers. Not to mention that war, right? .



This is definitely a stretch. You don't see a lot of Sith women in power, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. You don't see many Jedi getting scooped up from their homeworlds and undergoing training from infancy much in the movies, but that doesn't mean they didn't. You see what I mean? Argument from Ignorance doesn't do much for anyone.

(With JanusEdit)

Nai: Didn't know you had the german version, sorry for any miscommunication there. Nevertheless, in the english version she merely says tremendous strength. (It's close enough to what he's saying... It says Ragnos was a half-breed with tremendous strength both physically and with the Force.)

You don't know how powerful Kun's spirit was do you? He instantly killed a Force user too, one that didn't do too bad in combat against Luke. He also Force choked twelve padawans at the same time, but then they resisted it. He helped Kyp Durron rip Luke's spirit from his body and helped Kyp ressurect the Suncrusher from the core of Yavin. Now yes he had drained the power of the entire massassi race, but Ragnos' spirit was charged with Force energy from dozens of different locations so his spirit was fully powered as well and even in the body of a not too shabby Force user and with a Sith sword, he still lost to a Jedi knight. Kun's spirit on the other hand, required 12 padawan's, Luke's spirit, and Vodo's spirit COMBINING their power and two lightsabers to destroy Kun's spirit (who wasn't in a Force user and didn't have a weapon like Ragnos.) And no, I don't think Jaden has any chance to defeat Ragnos but I think the spirit has a portion of the original power.

So Sadow had the amulet, he still didn't defeat anyone. A lot of good that did him.

You yourself said that Pall with his immense power couldn't handle his blade. Yet, Revan can. (Revan acquired the blade. Whether or not it caused his demise hasn't been revealed yet.)

As for Kreia's quote about the ancient Sith she never knew in a time she wasn't in, let's assume just for argument's sake that she's always right (except about Revan being power and the heart of the Force of course) If they made everyone look like children, then why is it that Pall lost pathetically to the Revan who was far from his peak? Nadd's spirit still whooped up on Kun until Kun got the amulet. Now if Pall's spirit makes Freedon's spirit look like a child, then why couldn't Pall beat the weak Revan when Nadd could defeat the weak Kun? Did I mention Pall had his powerful sword and Nadd only used the Force? It doesn't make any sense unless Revan is WAY stronger than Kun or of course if Kreia is wrong. (One, Pall wasn't a true Sith... He was a fallen Jedi who was with the original exiles on Korriban. He may have been strong, but that was millenia ago. I doubt his spirit is stronger than Nadd's as it's depicted in KOTOR. I mean, he is barely aware of his own presence.)

What makes you think Malachor V and Ziost were in the Sith empire? Never mentioned in any official source to my knowledge. Plus, I thought Ragnos ONLY ruled over Korriban and they didn't even have hyperspace technology or somesuch. (Malachor V is a virtual library of Sith lore. That stuff just doesn't magically appear on some non-Sith planet.)

I'll get back to you eventually on what Kreia says about the Sith fighting constantly every day. How many Sith existed in the empire anyway? On a side note though and having nothing to do with the debate, if they were fighting so much, it's hard to believe they kept up the population so well especially when you don't see many Sith women.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Nai: Didn't know you had the german version, sorry for any miscommunication there. Nevertheless, in the english version she merely says tremendous strength.

OK...got that...



He killed a force user. Yes. Instantly ? No. He used force lightning on him and we don't know how long he did it. And that force user was a padawan. King Ommin had enough force powers to defeat Arca Jeth (who is one of the most powerful Jedi in his time). He was a Sith magician and trained in Sith magic for his entire life. And Nadd didn't even use some force power on him...he just said it's enough and *bing* Ommin was down.

For the rest of the things Kun did. He stored his spirit in the ruins of Yavin 4 using the Massasi. He had "real" life force to drain and use it to store his spirit there. His spirit is charged with the life force of thousands of beings while the other Sith spirits just remained because of their force powers.



There are some fundamental differences here:
Kuns spirit was destroyed. Ragnos spirit is still arround in his tomb on Korriban. Jaden Korr just defeated the physical body that Ragnos was in not the spirit of Ragnos itself.
And well...what do you think how much power Kuns spirit has compared to the living Kun ? 25 % ? 50 % ? And that's after 4,000 years AND draining the life force of several hundrets or thousands of Massasi to keep his spirit alive. So...what do you think how much power Ragnos spirit (without the lifeforce draining of Kun) would have 5,000 years after Ragnos death compared to Ragnos alive ?



Can he ? We don't know what he did with that blade and we don't no what that blade did to him.



Kreia had years of time to study the knowledge stored on Malachor V. So why she shouldn't know about the ancient Sith Lords. And Pall was one of the first Dark Lords...actualy one of the Dark Jedi that started that "Dark Lord" title. He's around for more than 20,000 years when Revan ran across him so he would have lost 4 times as much power compared to Ragnos or 5 times as much as Kun lost. And hey...he isn't in a great condition when Revan came in there.



As I said...that comparance is pretty much senseless since Pall wasn't one of the people that Kreia was talking about. The Sith Empire reached his high point under Ragnos.



a) That Malachor belonged to the Sith Empire is mentioned in KotoR 2 for serveral times and what do you think where all that Sith knowledge comes from.
b) Ziost became the capital of the Sith Empire after Naga Sadows time because Korriban was too close to the Republic space.
c) Ragnos ruled over the Sith Empire. The Sith Empire contained serveral worlds...they expanded the Empire for 20,000 years until the times of Ragnos.
d) They had hyperspace technology. The hyperdrive was invented 25,000 years BBY hundrets of years before the first Dark Jedi went to Korriban. Well...how should they have travelled to unknown space without a hyperdrive. That travel would have needed serveral hundret years.



Well...how many planets you can conquer in 20,000 years and than have interbreeding between Sith and the original inhabitants of the planets you conquered ? Actualy there could be billions of "Sith" or "half-breeds" (like Ragnos) living within the Sith Empire.

read the last 5 posts they are all at least 3 times longer then the longest post i ever posted. it must take you guyz like 5 hours

More like ten, fifteen minutes, really.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
More like ten, fifteen minutes, really.

5-10, unless you have short, stubby fingers.