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Good job london police. You gunned down an innocent man. I found this part very interesting.

police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him in the head and torso.

"The standard policy saying officers should not use a gun except as a last resort was changed after the July 7 bombings, giving police the authority to shoot suspected suicide bombers first and ask questions later."

sickening

If they shot him in the torso that would also imply that they didn't suspect he was carrying any explosives. I recall reading police protocol for firearms officers is (if they do make the decision to shoot) to aim for the largest part of the body i.e. the torso, however with suspected bombers protocol is to aim for the head as shooting the torso could detonate the explosives you're trying to prevent from going off.

He was shot in the head.

But frankly, although the death is regrettable, it needs to be seen in context. A city with two terrorist attacks attempted on it in two weeks is going to be jumpy and very hardcore about its own safety.

So when a man is challeneged by armed police- which are very rare in the UK- and then RUNS AWAY FROM THEM onto the Underground system, ignoring all challeneges and exhortations to stop, then he is damn well risking being shot. Sorry, but that's the way it is. If he HAD been a bomber the police would have been crucified for not acting the way they did.

Khalid Mahmood, Labour MP, Birmingham, Perry Bar:

"This is a terrible tragedy and we have to feel sympathy for the dead man, his family and the police. But the basic principles remain. As long as the police have robust procedures in place then, if a suspect ignores a command to stop and is deemed to be jeopardising the lives of others, shooting to kill is justified. Anyone who ignores a police challenge will nearly always have something to hide and will know that he is outting his own life at risk by running away."

Damn right. Do NOT run from armed police who have been sent out to protect a city from terrorists, and you won't get shot.

And he was shot in the head.

Meanwhile, whilst concerns are being raised,. Muslim leaders and civil liberties groups in the UK are backing the First Fire policy as necessary. It is entirely reasonable.

Ush, how close do you live to the bombings?

My understanding of the situation is that these were plain-clothes armed officers. So I'm wondering if there was a problem with communication, and that perhaps the man did not understand that a) these were police officers and b) these were armed police officers. Most all of the eyewitness accounts are of the man being subdued before being shot five times.

Also is it true that it's unusual for plain-clothes surveillance officers to be armed and/or to give chase?

The guy was a Brazilian electrician who'd lived in London for 3 years.
He would have understood them telling him to stop, but he could have thought they were terrorists. If they pulled guns, he might have ran away.

No it is not usual, they were part of a specific gun-armed anti-terrorist unit who were keeping surveillance on the flat the man emerged from.

The man apparently understood English and was challenged to stop clearly and repeatedly, a process which would have involved the police IDing themselves- he was likely fearing arrest for some crime he had committed, possibly illegal immigration.

Shooting five times in the head is in fact the correct procedure for making sure a suicide bomber cannot activate his bombs; it is what they have been told to do.

And I am about 25 miles out.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No it is not usual, they were part of a specific gun-armed anti-terrorist unit who were keeping surveillance on the flat the man emerged from.

The man apparently understood English and was challenged to stop clearly and repeatedly, a process which would have involved the police IDing themselves- he was likely fearing arrest for some crime he had committed, possibly illegal immigration.

Shooting five times in the head is in fact the correct procedure for making sure a suicide bomber cannot activate his bombs; it is what they have been told to do.

And I am about 25 miles out.
are all your family and friends ok?

I would have thought a single shot to the head would suffice in killing someone. Five seems a bit excessive.

Previous experience with suicide bombers shows otherwise. Five shots to be safe.

Oh, everyone is fine, thanks for asking, RJ, though it was only sheer luck that I wasn;t at Liverpool Street the day of the first bombings.

turns out the guy was just some innocent brazilian probably running so he didn't miss his train

oh well...

tbh you try being a policeman on the underground after and during suicide bomb attacks... the guy ran down the subway after the police declared that they were indeed policemen, and drew their weapons...

accidents happen, i know it's not an excuse for death but give the police a break.. all the 'sickening'-esque remarks are pathetic

Originally posted by jaden101
turns out the guy was just some innocent brazilian probably running so he didn't miss his train

oh well...

What??!

He specifically ran away from the police after the challenge, vaulted the barriers and dashed on the first train he could find to try and get away!

Innocent of terrorism he may have been, but they didn't just gun down a bystander for the hell of it.

I said smething like this at the time at work.
They better have shot the right man, otherwise it just puts everyone in jeaopardy still further and is another needless waste of life. Nothing has changed.

He ran. So he got shot. He didn't co-operate with the polices demands.

How he thought he'd survive running away from armed police is astonishing.

"It's awful"

"Nice one London for shooting an innocent man"

People who say this are full of crap. He acted like a textbook suspect.

I'd have shot him.

Brazilian?!

Why would a Brazilian ever want to plant a bomb in London? Ridiculous.

Originally posted by Red Superfly
He ran. So he got shot. He didn't co-operate with the polices demands.

How he thought he'd survive running away from armed police is astonishing.

"It's awful"

"Nice one London for shooting an innocent man"

People who say this are full of crap. He acted like a textbook suspect.

I'd have shot him.

You don't know how you would act scared.

It was a needless waste of life and a mistake was made.

Tensions are high in London at the moment, people are scared and the Police pushed him to the floor and shot him. I have no doubt that they overeacted given the tension present. Its not the first time something like this has happened in London and it won't be the last.

There is no question of overreaction; that is why response from civil liberty and Muslim groups has been muted. It is generally recognised that the man invited that response with his panicked actions.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
There is no question of overreaction; that is why response from civil liberty and Muslim groups has been muted. It is generally recognised that the man invited that response with his panicked actions.

Yup 5 shots sure is a perfect response

Yes, absolutely. As already said, if you had taken the time to read properly, that is the exact trained response to deal with a suspected suicide bomber who is ignoring challenges to stop.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Yes, absolutely. As already said, if you had taken the time to read properly, that is the exact trained response to deal with a suspected suicide bomber who is ignoring challenges to stop.


Indeed hold him on the ground and pump lead into him, the fact he doesn't talk english really helps

There is no indication that he didn't speak English, and again, yes, that is the trained means of dealing with suicide bombers. Your continual accusations in this area should be accompanied by some attempt to learn about the situation before commenting.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
There is no indication that he didn't speak English, and again, yes, that is the trained means of dealing with suicide bombers. Your continual accusations in this area should be accompanied by some attempt to learn about the situation before commenting.

OK as someone who knows people who work in SO19 and lives in London I don't think I need to know much

I understand that a man in a heavy coat would worry people in most cities but in London in the summer its a common sight, due to the high number of people from Africa we get who find the weather still cold. I would like to see the reason they chased him in the first place that I don't know. However 5 armed Police officers, newish visitor to a country. paint your own picture.
Please don't make things personal by saying I need to know etc mate, just stick to your opinion and facts, it makes debating far more relaxed.


We have a shoot to kill policy, why, is obvious. Are our Police competant enough to implement it without mistakes, obviously not. They have a hard job, I am not knocking the Police. I am worried about needless death though.

OK as someone who knows people who work in SO19 and lives in London I don't think I need to know much

I understand that a man in a heavy coat would worry people in most cities but in London in the summer its a common sight, due to the high number of people from Africa we get who find the weather still cold. I would like to see the reason they chased him in the first place that I don't know. However 5 armed Police officers, newish visitor to a country. paint your own picture.
Please don't make things personal by saying I need to know etc mate, just stick to your opinion and facts, it makes debating far more relaxed.


We have a shoot to kill policy, why, is obvious. Are our Police competant enough to implement it without mistakes, obviously not. They have a hard job, I am not knocking the Police. I am worried about needless death though.

I agree with this. As a MET Copper I know what it's like to have your every action scrutinised (this doesn't make my opinion more valid, but I simply know what it's like). The shooter made a decision based on a very fast sequence of events and obviously thought the bloke had a bomb. If the bloke did have a bomb, the shooter would be a hero for saving everyone on the train, but his decision would have still been based on the same sequence of events. It's a fine line. It's a tragic event and the victim is a victim of terrorism as much as any other victim on 07/07 or 09/11.

Calling it sickening and calling one of the finest police forces in the world incompetent is foolish and in ill-taste.

This event quite rightly results in upset, but it needn't result in anger faced at the people who are trying to protect our fine city.

So it is only okay to shoot someone before knowing if they have a bomb or not when you find out afterwards that they did indeed have a bomb.

I see.

Originally posted by snoochyboochies
OK as someone who knows people who work in SO19 and lives in London I don't think I need to know much

I understand that a man in a heavy coat would worry people in most cities but in London in the summer its a common sight, due to the high number of people from Africa we get who find the weather still cold. I would like to see the reason they chased him in the first place that I don't know. However 5 armed Police officers, newish visitor to a country. paint your own picture.
Please don't make things personal by saying I need to know etc mate, just stick to your opinion and facts, it makes debating far more relaxed.


We have a shoot to kill policy, why, is obvious. Are our Police competant enough to implement it without mistakes, obviously not. They have a hard job, I am not knocking the Police. I am worried about needless death though.

I agree with this. As a MET Copper I know what it's like to have your every action scrutinised (this doesn't make my opinion more valid, but I simply know what it's like). The shooter made a decision based on a very fast sequence of events and obviously thought the bloke had a bomb. If the bloke did have a bomb, the shooter would be a hero for saving everyone on the train, but his decision would have still been based on the same sequence of events. It's a fine line. It's a tragic event and the victim is a victim of terrorism as much as any other victim on 07/07 or 09/11.

Calling it sickening and calling one of the finest police forces in the world incompetent is foolish and in ill-taste.

This event quite rightly results in upset, but it needn't result in anger faced at the people who are trying to protect our fine city.


If you are a Met officer you will know that many SO19 come from the SAS, SBS, PARAs etc and have had to retrain themselves as not to shoot to kill. A shoot to kill policy is in effect for obvious reasons. They killed an innocent man, thats sad.

I think it is tragic, and if you read what I said it was that I understood that a shoot to kill policy was in effect, someone who was not a bomber was shot and killed. Eyewitness acounts say he was pushed and held on the ground then shot. A mistake was made so yes I worry about competance. I understand the Police have a hard job, I have met good ones and bad ones.

I would not want a society without Police, but, a mistake challenges competance, and its not the first time the met have shot someone by mistake is it? It won't be the last sadly. They are accountable and if a overeaction has been made, may well be held accountable.

Thanks for agreeing with my post, I agree with yours also, who called it sickening etc?

wwoooOOOO...everyone has a go when i give an opinion..."the police identified themselves"

the guy was brazilian...therfore its safe to assume he speaks portugese...what if his English was relatively poor...

the police were in plain clothes...

to him could could have looked like a group of dodgy looking guys following him

"all the 'sickening'-esque remarks are pathetic"

as for where this is coming from i have no idea....cause its certainly not from me

one last point...when did everyone suddenly start defending the authorities on KMC

i have no doubt that if it happened in the US...it would have been an evil shoot to kill policy devised by Bush and the servants of satan or some other such tripe

i know how difficult the polices job is especially in these kinds of situations...all the more important that they get it right

Originally posted by KidRock
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Good job london police. You gunned down an innocent man. I found this part very interesting.

police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him in the head and torso.


when i heard it on the news that they had shot a 'suspected terriost' the first thing that went through my head is wouldnt they feel like Sh*t if hes innocent low and behold he was

No, all I'm saying is, he ran, so he got shot.

It really is that simple. It was terrible circumstances, but the police simply couldn't take that risk.

As far as they could tell, he was a terrorist, and needed to be killed. The reason they have a shoot-to-kill policy is because they cannot allow suspected terrorists an inch. If he was a terrorist, what if they simply shot him and downed him? He could have triggerred anything. Obviously he didn't but it's about assessing risks.

The police are in a high alert status. They warned him, and even though he may or may not have spoken english, he was lacking basic common sense. He made a misake just as much as the police did. It may sound like an awful thing to say about an innocent dead man, but he would be alive if he just put his arms up and didn't come across so blatantly as a terrorist.

We can harp on about authority and policies and what not, but the man should not have run, plain clothed police men or not. That again was down to common sense. If a bunch of guys in plain clothes pull a gun and start barking at you, in broad daylight, in front of the public, one would assume that they were not criminals - unless the man had something to hide, which I am not suggesting.

Also, as for running out of panic, that is not the case. In true life or death panic, the mind shuts down and you freeze. Panic rarely induces one to run from armed persons. Again, I personally think that was a lack of common sense.

Awful things to say they may be, but seriously, who in their right mind would let a bombing suspect run off? Tragic death, and I dunno if this is highly insensitive me or not, but maybe this will demonstrate the zero tolerance nature of the police and that total co-operation is necessary, regardless of whether you can speak our language or not.

Originally posted by jaden101
wwoooOOOO...everyone has a go when i give an opinion..."the police identified themselves"

the guy was brazilian...therfore its safe to assume he speaks portugese...what if his English was relatively poor...

the police were in plain clothes...

to him could could have looked like a group of dodgy looking guys following him

"all the 'sickening'-esque remarks are pathetic"

as for where this is coming from i have no idea....cause its certainly not from me

one last point...when did everyone suddenly start defending the authorities on KMC



i have no doubt that if it happened in the US...it would have been an evil shoot to kill policy devised by Bush and the servants of satan or some other such tripe

i know how difficult the polices job is especially in these kinds of situations...all the more important that they get it right

Pretty much what I said except the last bit.

They did get it right, they did everything by the book, they made no mistake.

A man they thought to be a possible suicide terrorist ran when they told him to halt, they took the necessary actions to bring him down and make sure he wouldn't be able to detonate any bombs that he may have been carrying. They did what they should do in this situation, not take chances.

The only mistake that was made was by the brazzilian man who ran.

Originally posted by BackFire
They did get it right, they did everything by the book, they made no mistake.

A man they thought to be a possible suicide terrorist ran when they told him to halt, they took the necessary actions to bring him down and make sure he wouldn't be able to detonate any bombs that he may have been carrying. They did what they should do in this situation, not take chances.

The only mistake that was made was by the brazzilian man who ran.


They were out of uniform and we don't know what was said, how correct they acted any enquiry will ascertain that is not for you or I.

If they identified themselves, they would have shown him some sort of card or other identification - in how many cases have terrorists gone up to somebody and politely asked them to stop, whilst showing them their 'Terrorist ID'?

I don't really think a squad of plain-clothes police officers walk about brandishing their weapons, nor, I imagine, are they 'dodgy-looking' - at least any more than anybody else you might meet on the underground. When all is taken into account, it was a regrettable mistake, but one the man brought upon himself.

Originally posted by Trickster
If they identified themselves, they would have shown him some sort of card or other identification - in how many cases have terrorists gone up to somebody and politely asked them to stop, whilst showing them their 'Terrorist ID'?

I don't really think a squad of plain-clothes police officers walk about brandishing their weapons, nor, I imagine, are they 'dodgy-looking' - at least any more than anybody else you might meet on the underground. When all is taken into account, it was a regrettable mistake, but one the man brought upon himself.

We don't know that yet, the degree of mistake has yet to be ascertained. The Police may have done everything right. They may not. The enquiry which will follow will decide, as it will be privy to all the information and not just the supposition we have.

Still, only an idiot runs from five policemen, armed or not, after what just happened. And if they didn't declare themselves, why would he run? If he had just seen their guns, well, that might be reasonable, but surely other people would have run too.

Originally posted by Trickster
Still, only an idiot runs from five policemen, armed or not, after what just happened. And if they didn't declare themselves, why would he run? If he had just seen their guns, well, that might be reasonable, but surely other people would have run too.

Supposition a, many scenarios are possible

Personally I think it's tragic that a life was wasted needlessly, having said this I don't think people can fault the police for trying to protect the majority of people, for someone to get shot by the police in London they had to be doing something that provoked this, it isn't like in America where it seems most of the officers are pretty trigger happy.

Basically he shouldn't of run, however you look at it that was exceptionally stupid thing to do at anytime but especially so in light of the current mood in London..from what I've heard he was fluent in English so he would have know they were police not terrorists so he had no reason to run from them..

Purposely killing an innocent person, no matter what the circumstance or situation is, is not justified in my opinion.

ok the reason why they shot him 5 times was because the police were using low projectile bullets, which means they are not as strong as normal bullets.
Thats why the Police officer shot him 5 times in the head to make sure he was dead.

Originally posted by dawsey28
Purposely killing an innocent person, no matter what the circumstance or situation is, is not justified in my opinion.


Would you be saying that if he was a suicide bomber. Because obsuley the police were keeping watch over him for some time. Something about his must have aroused there suspicions.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Brazilian?!

Why would a Brazilian ever want to plant a bomb in London? Ridiculous.


the problem with computers is that you can never tell if a person is being sarcastic or not.

But i presume you are which is good. Because it does nto matter what nationality you are from its to do with the ideology most suicide bombers have.
I mean this Brazilian could have been an Islamic Fanatic.

Thing is we are not getting all the facts from the police because they have been watching him for some time now

Originally posted by ash007
ok the reason why they shot him 5 times was because the police were using low projectile bullets, which means they are not as strong as normal bullets.
Thats why the Police officer shot him 5 times in the head to make sure he was dead.

Now THAT is the dumbest thing I have ever heard... go to your friendly urban USA ER any night of the week and see how many folks are killed by ONE .22 to the head....

And I get the rationale as to why they shot & killed this guy, I just dont agree with it

No bilb this is more stupid


Originally posted by ash007

I mean this Brazilian could have been an Islamic Fanatic.

Thing is we are not getting all the facts from the police because they have been watching him for some time now

indeed whirly, i stand corrected

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Previous experience with suicide bombers shows otherwise. Five shots to be safe.

Oh, everyone is fine, thanks for asking, RJ, though it was only sheer luck that I wasn;t at Liverpool Street the day of the first bombings.
good. when we had the 9/11 incident, i had 3 close friends in New York. i didnt know they were safe until a week later.

Originally posted by ash007
Would you be saying that if he was a suicide bomber. Because obsuley the police were keeping watch over him for some time. Something about his must have aroused there suspicions.

Well, if he was a suicide bomber, then he wouldn't be innocent. Now would he?

Yes, I'd still be saying that if he was a suicide bomber.

oooooooooooooh.. the logic

Originally posted by ash007
Would you be saying that if he was a suicide bomber. Because obsuley the police were keeping watch over him for some time. Something about his must have aroused there suspicions.

A new device to combat terrorism Click here.

maybe next time they wont have to use bullets.

A mistake was made obviously. Tragic, unforntunate - and ultimately the end of a good man's life. It's a darn shame that this incident happenned but I cannot blame the London police for reacting as they did. 5 shots in the head seems overkill to us who are not trained to protect the public from potential terrorists/suicide bombers. The police officers involved have to live with this mistake for the rest of their lives' as will Mr de Menezes family in Brazil. My condolences to his family, and for what it's worth, sorry.

sad story

The man was a Brazilian, he had been living in London for several years and had good comprehension of English. For reasons unknown/unreleased he was under surveillance. Scotland Yard's admission to shooting an "innocent man" suggests that there was no reason for him being under surveillance. Was there a breakdown in intelligence?

There are conflicting reports of whether and when the police declared themselves. Was there some sort of breakdown in communication. These were armed plainclothes officers, if I did not grasp that these people were law enforcement I would have run. Eyewitness reports indicate the man was subdued before he was shot.

Those who make comments like "sickening" should not rush to judgement. Likewise those who argue that no one should question the actions of the police force, a ridiculous notion imo. If the police acted incompetently they should be held to account in accordance with the law and the inquiry will ascertain whether or not they did. Tensions are high and undoubtedly that played a role in this shooting. This was at it's most euphemistic a mistake and the question is was this an avoidable mistake?

The alarming prospect that few have noted is that this shoot-to-kill policy effectively removes the fundamental principle that a person is to be considered innocent until proven guilty. Has that principle become one of the many lost to the "fight against terror"?

P.S. Shooting someone five times in the head at point blank range is excessive in my opinion as someone who has studied neural physiology. If that is police policy it's a rather strange one.

If I have reason to believe someone is a terrorist, and they're running away from me, he'd be lucky if he only got 5.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
good. when we had the 9/11 incident, i had 3 close friends in New York. i didnt know they were safe until a week later.


Sad for you, I was in a similair position on the 7th and near the small explosions myself on Thursday, but I still think its sad an innocent man was killed.

An enquiry will ascertain how competant the actions of the Police were.

what also seems to have been forgotten in this sad affair is the fact that they followed and shot the man because he had what is commonly refered to as a "bomber jacket" on(allegedly)...kind of ironic really

but what i find weird is that he said he may have had a palestinian style bombers set up...namely hidden under his clothes...this is despite the fact that the previous attacks were all using bombs inside bags and rucksacks...

good ol' Britain we don't need intelligence we will just shoot random Innocent people because they look like a threat.


nice one assholes

it worked against the Irish for long enough...oh wait...no it didn't

Just to clear a few things up - reports are that they were watching him because his address was connected with the london bombers. Also i dont know if you guys living in london actually noticed but the last 2 weeks were the hottest this year so people wearing bomber jackets were far and few between. Either way you dont run from police at tube station day after attempted 2nd bombing of the tube in a month. The guy was in the UK for 3 years and spoke fluent english. What happened is sad, but you cant blame the police for the incident. It wasnt like it was just one thing, whats the chance of an innocent man already under surveillance running from armed police?

O and apparently his visa had expired so that probably explains why he ran....

Originally posted by naybean
O and apparently his visa had expired so that probably explains why he ran....


Also explains why he was under observation

This sort of supposition until all the facts are in is foolish

well this thing just gets weirder & weirder.... so lets put the focus back where IMO it ought to be.. the actual terrorists... lets not forget that without their attacks none of this woudl have even happened

Originally posted by whirlysplat
Also explains why he was under observation

This sort of supposition until all the facts are in is foolish

he personally wasn't under surveillence...just the block of flats(apartments) he was living in...

Originally posted by jaden101
he personally wasn't under surveillence...just the block of flats(apartments) he was living in...


Kind of makes it look even worse for the Police then, but I'll wait until the enquiry.

the flats were being watched because like i mentioned before there were links with the bombers - i think it was something to do with papers found at one of the sites had the address on them or something. the police wouldnt bother wasting surveillance on a single illegal immigrant.

Originally posted by naybean
the flats were being watched because like i mentioned before there were links with the bombers - i think it was something to do with papers found at one of the sites had the address on them or something. the police wouldnt bother wasting surveillance on a single illegal immigrant.

Oh, they might, they might..........


lets wait for the enquiry

you really think that the day after a terrorist attack the metropolitan police are gonna waste members of the force on an illegal immigrant thats no threat to the british public?

Not unless they thought he was helping the terrorist no, it would be a waste of man and time.

I think for many its business as usual, but i suspect their "intelligence" was flawed.

Welcome to totalitarianism.

Funny how while the "police" (it was actually just a few officers) made a tragic, incompetent and fatal mistake, the rest of the force catch 4 of Britain's most wanted men and somehow it gets overlooked.

Don't get me wrong, they had the man pinned down so I don't see why ONE shot to the head was neccessary, let alone EIGHT. Just think we oughta realise what's a priority here.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Funny how while the "police" (it was actually just a few officers) made a tragic, incompetent and fatal mistake, the rest of the force catch 4 of Britain's most wanted men and somehow it gets overlooked.

Don't get me wrong, they had the man pinned down so I don't see why ONE shot to the head was neccessary, let alone EIGHT. Just think we oughta realise what's a priority here.

-AC

Yep ; once again another situation got stigmatised.

Though what i liked about the operation of catching the suspect in Rome, was how they let him think he got away while he was constantly being monitored. It was a really good operation.

People say "How can you expect a man to be caught from a photo."

Celebrities get known worldwide by pictures, a form of media. Criminals are no different.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Funny how while the "police" (it was actually just a few officers) made a tragic, incompetent and fatal mistake, the rest of the force catch 4 of Britain's most wanted men and somehow it gets overlooked.

-AC

Same thing happens to the U.S. everyday.

Not all the Police at all an enquiry needs to be completed for the shooting.
The Police did well catching the bombers, if they are the right people and although I hat conspiracy theoris Lokerbie had some problems.
Hopefully this time the right people have been caught and more arrests will follow.

Originally posted by Reckoning
Welcome to totalitarianism.

yeh thats what it comes down to

Originally posted by whirlysplat
Hopefully this time the right people have been caught and more arrests will follow.

****en right !

The italians got some Hardware out Hussain Osman's brother. There must be some more electronic information on there as well

I'm actually quite proud of the fact that for once in a very long time, there is some kind of unity, genuinely, among countries and for once some kind of competent and successful major investigation.

None of it seems to come from the US, just UK and Italy. But I'm sure Bush will fly some Bin Ladens into the US and then say "Look, ahh caught em!"

The thing is, these terrorists should actually bomb parliament or the whitehouse. Actually bomb the people they have the problems with, not innocent people.

If I have a problem with Whirly, I don't go and abuse his friends and neighbours, I take my problem to him (I don't have one, Whirly. Just an analogy.)

-AC

Well its widely believed (and I'm sure you guys will correct me if I'm wrong ) that the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania on 9/11 was headed for teh White House and lets not forget the one that actually did hit the Pentagon.. so its not like they havent tried to get at the heart of it... However if you REALLY wanna get back at someone you dont take them out, you take out the ones they love... Its much worse to have your kid killed than to die yourself.. Not that I hope that this happens, I'm just saying I think this is why they have targeted teh public....

I'm not 100% willing to say a plane hit the pentagon given the pictures I saw.

But I'm also not one to say "Oh it was a secret plot". Not confirming or denying anything as I don't have the info to do so.

-AC

good to see you back AC...you been on holiday or something?

Something of that nature.

Thanks for the welcome back owld chahm. C-chum.

-AC

Originally posted by Ushgarak
What??!

He specifically ran away from the police after the challenge, vaulted the barriers and dashed on the first train he could find to try and get away!

Innocent of terrorism he may have been, but they didn't just gun down a bystander for the hell of it.

Originally posted by Red Superfly
He ran. So he got shot. He didn't co-operate with the polices demands.

How he thought he'd survive running away from armed police is astonishing.

"It's awful"

"Nice one London for shooting an innocent man"

People who say this are full of crap. He acted like a textbook suspect.

I'd have shot him.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
There is no indication that he didn't speak English, and again, yes, that is the trained means of dealing with suicide bombers. Your continual accusations in this area should be accompanied by some attempt to learn about the situation before commenting.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
OK as someone who knows people who work in SO19 and lives in London I don't think I need to know much

I understand that a man in a heavy coat would worry people in most cities but in London in the summer its a common sight, due to the high number of people from Africa we get who find the weather still cold. I would like to see the reason they chased him in the first place that I don't know. However 5 armed Police officers, newish visitor to a country. paint your own picture.
Please don't make things personal by saying I need to know etc mate, just stick to your opinion and facts, it makes debating far more relaxed.


We have a shoot to kill policy, why, is obvious. Are our Police competant enough to implement it without mistakes, obviously not. They have a hard job, I am not knocking the Police. I am worried about needless death though.

Originally posted by snoochyboochies
OK as someone who knows people who work in SO19 and lives in London I don't think I need to know much

I understand that a man in a heavy coat would worry people in most cities but in London in the summer its a common sight, due to the high number of people from Africa we get who find the weather still cold. I would like to see the reason they chased him in the first place that I don't know. However 5 armed Police officers, newish visitor to a country. paint your own picture.
Please don't make things personal by saying I need to know etc mate, just stick to your opinion and facts, it makes debating far more relaxed.


We have a shoot to kill policy, why, is obvious. Are our Police competant enough to implement it without mistakes, obviously not. They have a hard job, I am not knocking the Police. I am worried about needless death though.

I agree with this. As a MET Copper I know what it's like to have your every action scrutinised (this doesn't make my opinion more valid, but I simply know what it's like). The shooter made a decision based on a very fast sequence of events and obviously thought the bloke had a bomb. If the bloke did have a bomb, the shooter would be a hero for saving everyone on the train, but his decision would have still been based on the same sequence of events. It's a fine line. It's a tragic event and the victim is a victim of terrorism as much as any other victim on 07/07 or 09/11.

Calling it sickening and calling one of the finest police forces in the world incompetent is foolish and in ill-taste.

This event quite rightly results in upset, but it needn't result in anger faced at the people who are trying to protect our fine city.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
If you are a Met officer you will know that many SO19 come from the SAS, SBS, PARAs etc and have had to retrain themselves as not to shoot to kill. A shoot to kill policy is in effect for obvious reasons. They killed an innocent man, thats sad.

I think it is tragic, and if you read what I said it was that I understood that a shoot to kill policy was in effect, someone who was not a bomber was shot and killed. Eyewitness acounts say he was pushed and held on the ground then shot. A mistake was made so yes I worry about competance. I understand the Police have a hard job, I have met good ones and bad ones.

I would not want a society without Police, but, a mistake challenges competance, and its not the first time the met have shot someone by mistake is it? It won't be the last sadly. They are accountable and if a overeaction has been made, may well be held accountable.



Originally posted by BackFire
They did get it right, they did everything by the book, they made no mistake.

A man they thought to be a possible suicide terrorist ran when they told him to halt, they took the necessary actions to bring him down and make sure he wouldn't be able to detonate any bombs that he may have been carrying. They did what they should do in this situation, not take chances.

The only mistake that was made was by the brazzilian man who ran.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
They were out of uniform and we don't know what was said, how correct they acted any enquiry will ascertain that is not for you or I.


I'd say we need that enquiry soon!

Sorry duplicate

If the cops can go arround shooting folk by just thinking they might be a terrorist then somethings badly wrong. Either they were very inexperienced and got carried away by false info, or were from the military (SAS or ITT) in which case they are brought in to kill, like the IRA shot in Gibraltar (i was there at the time), they were unarmed but one of them got 40 rounds in him.

Well well ; It seems that after-all this story has started to metamorph.

A month ago Met Police claimed they shot dead a bombing suspect in Stockwell cause ' He specifically ran away from the police after the challenge, vaulted the barriers and dashed on the first train he could find to try and get away! '

Brazilian lawyers are in UK seeking a seperate inquiry into the 'murder' of de Menezes with the IPCC.

It also has been mentioned on SkyNews that as per CCTV footage, De Menezes:

1) Did not run into Stockwell Station.

2) Was wearing a white tracksuit jacket instead of the padded jacket police sources said.

3) Walked in so anaware that he was being followed, that he even had the chance to pick up a free newspaper at a stand.

4) Walked calmly down to the tube.

5) Only ran when he saw his train was about to leave

6) Did not oppose any resistance

If the enquiry by IPCC makes these statements true, (and we will only know in about 3 months), the case may be classified as Murder.

Originally posted by GCG
Well well ; It seems that after-all this story has started to metamorph.

A month ago Met Police claimed they shot dead a bombing suspect in Stockwell cause ' He specifically ran away from the police after the challenge, vaulted the barriers and dashed on the first train he could find to try and get away! '

Brazilian lawyers are in UK seeking a seperate inquiry into the 'murder' of de Menezes with the IPCC.

It also has been mentioned on SkyNews that as per CCTV footage, De Menezes:

1) Did not run into Stockwell Station.

2) Was wearing a white tracksuit jacket instead of the padded jacket police sources said.

3) Walked in so anaware that he was being followed, that he even had the chance to pick up a free newspaper at a stand.

4) Walked calmly down to the tube.

5) Only ran when he saw his train was about to leave

6) Did not oppose any resistance

If the enquiry by IPCC makes these statements true, (and we will only know in about 3 months), the case may be classified as Murder.

Indeed extremely sad, like I said at the time in so many words you can't always trust what your being told by official sources.

To be quite honest, I doubt that in the space of 7-10 days there was adequate training handed over to the officers invloved in tell-telling suicide bomber suspects from (EG.) a bodybuilder going to the Gym, or a very cold sensitive person.

Altough a part of the blame would lay on the Officers involved consiences, I feel that they should have been trained in detecting body-language which gives out a lot more on a person's 'feel of the moment'.

Therfore the authoroties above, who so bragged about their BP, did little as in the 'prevention' field and focused more on Being Prepared for the consequences of an after-attack.

For example, they should have police pschologists and officers manning Infra-Red specs at potential tube stations scanning suspects BEFORE and approach so aas to avoid further embarassing situations.

Originally posted by GCG
To be quite honest, I doubt that in the space of 7-10 days there was adequate training handed over to the officers invloved in tell-telling suicide bomber suspects from (EG.) a bodybuilder going to the Gym, or a very cold sensitive person.

Altough a part of the blame would lay on the Officers involved consiences, I feel that they should have been trained in detecting body-language which gives out a lot more on a person's 'feel of the moment'.

Therfore the authoroties above, who so bragged about their BP, did little as in the 'prevention' field and focused more on Being Prepared for the consequences of an after-attack.

For example, they should have police pschologists and officers manning Infra-Red specs at potential tube stations scanning suspects BEFORE and approach so aas to avoid further embarassing situations.


I agree with much of your thread although I have an inherent distrust of psychology

I think common sense would have been useful to the three "intelligence" officers on the train who "fingered" the suspect. They are as much to blame as the SO19 cops. We will see what we will see when the enquiry comes out although, Blaires "Houston we have a problem" line last week was unbelievably tactless.

Reading more into this case it seems to me that there is some political agenda involved in this whole incident.

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/4d2c82e8-134a-11da-beee-00000e2511c8.html

In a related story it seems to me that there was some bad communication within the 24hrs of the incident.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/08/21/ublair.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/08/21/ixportaltop.html

For those who wish to stay in a neutral opinion of the case (until more evidence is presented) check out the Disputed facts events from wikipedia.org

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_De_Menezes

That is the British police for you...

I'm not dismissing what they did wrong, it was a tragic and horrific mistake that, for Menezes family, cannot be forgiven.

However, don't knock the entire British police force who, lest we forget, caught all 4 of the attempted bombers within a short space of time.

-AC

yep ; at least the British did catch someone....

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not dismissing what they did wrong, it was a tragic and horrific mistake that, for Menezes family, cannot be forgiven.

However, don't knock the entire British police force who, lest we forget, caught all 4 of the attempted bombers within a short space of time.

-AC

Oh sorry I forgot we only say, "that is the police force/army for ya" when it is in the United States. Damn, what was I thinking?

Well considering we showed that it is possible to catch dangerous criminals if you don't have an agenda, yes, that's exactly it.

-AC

SNAP