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Depends on what you call religion....some believe that a vegetarian diet is what was created in the garden of eden and taught by Jesus if he was an Essene...And medical professions do agree with this...and, faith does work many times in heeling's, but not always...I do believe in miracles, and I've seen some...But I believe it is not so much a in "This name or that name." but a strong belief in a power...since this happens in many faiths across the world.

Some religions are very detrimental to a persons state of mind and or family and children with such odd restrictions and guilt that the human mind wasn't made to function in, that state which suppresses natural human emotions and can lead to problems later in life. Many families have broken up because of very restrictive or imagined guilt and superstitions.

Adam and eve were vegetarians because there was no sin no, so no animal was killed to cover their nakedness. before they sinned, between them and the animals, their was no killing and everyone got along.

Vegetarianism was in affect until the flood...If you want to go there....though I'm sure some ate meat....when looked up in a concordance, meat meant food, not flesh. After the flood God said they were allowed to eat meat/flesh.

Placebo

they ate meat after the fall and before the flood.

Originally posted by cking
they ate meat after the fall and before the flood.


They were not to eat meat until after the flood and that would be meat that had no blood in it...

King James Version
Genesis 8.

The Book of Genesis
Return to Index Henry's Commentary



Chapter 9

1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
fruitful Gen 1:28, Gen 9:7, Lev 26:9, Psa 128:3

2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
fear Hos 2:18, James 3:7

3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you even as the green herb have I given you all things.

4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
blood Lev 17:10, Deut 12:16, 1st Sam 14:34, Acts 15:20, Acts 15:29

Originally posted by Storm
Many believe that religious beliefs can lead to better health, and there is some basis for that conclusion.

Try to keep it on topic please.

we try

not true.

Originally posted by cking
not true.

Can you elaborate..

not all denominations teach that if a person is sick because of sin. it is just part of life, but sometimes it can, it just depends, but most of the time it isn't.

Many people turn to their faith and prayer when facing serious illness to help them get through this difficult time. Prayer has proven to be a powerful source of comfort and strength to those facing illness and death, but can prayer heal?

I believe that in many cases, people are more likely looking for sympathy and emotional support, rather than divine intervention when they ask for people' s prayers. They want to know that people are thinking about them and care enough to hope that things turn out well for them.

It depends on the intensity and direction of one's faith.

If a person believes that god will save them from any illness (and forgoes medicine as a result) they're going to die much sooner. But a person who believes that God is protecting him will have a much better chance of surviving an illness due to the fact that they are much more hopeful.

Religious faith can (in moderatiob) reduce stress in a person's life and thereby maintain the immune system.

So religious people probably would live longer depending on their faith.

As for illness coming from God. I somehow doubt that God would be bothered to go out and give people illnesses for their sins out of so sort to twisted spite.

Religion can be harmful to your health, especially your mental health ie thinking your going to burn in hell for doing something trivial.

A strong belief in anything can be helpful to your health and recovery, a belief in God, the doctor or just sheer force of will to get better. Much the same way as a placebo, if you think this pill is going to help you many times it does just because you believe it will.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Religious people tend to live longer lives. Yay?


According to what ?

Being happy and having self-confidence increases health, not religion specifically. If religion provides those things, then all is good.

Studies indicate a high correlation between meaningful faith and happiness...

"studies"

I'd like to know how one tests for "meaningful faith" and what percentage of faith is "meaningful"...and of course who onducted the studies.

Well, for one, Buddhism has certainly given me a much more confident and positive outlook on life and human behavior in general.

and Buddhism is 0% meaningful faith to you. All you care about is carnal lust.

Originally posted by Alliance
and Buddhism is 0% meaningful faith to you. All you care about is carnal lust.


Are you joking or serious ? What do you have against me that you feel the constant need to try to belittle me in every thread ?


Please do not waste your energy and time, because you care more about me than I care about you

really....find a hobby or something, ur anger and frustration is annoying.

I don't giva a shit about you, you are simply annoying, degrading, and your posts are constantly either off-topic or pointless.

If what I said is so false...explain why.

Originally posted by Alliance
and Buddhism is 0% meaningful faith to you. All you care about is carnal lust.

Is this your opinion of Buddhism or Goddess Kali?

You know I think Buddhism is just like any other religion.

However, i think the "to you" part distingished that I'm talking to Urizen.

Originally posted by Alliance
You know I think Buddhism is just like any other religion.

However, i think the "to you" part distingished that I'm talking to Urizen.

I just wanted to clarify, not for me... It is fair to say that the way a person constantly acts is a reflection of what they think. Thoughts lead to actions. What they think is a reflection of what they have learned, and to make a statement of change requires some manifestation of what is learned, thought and action.

Goddess Kali please continue your studies.

Originally posted by Alliance
I don't giva a shit about you, you are simply annoying, degrading, and your posts are constantly either off-topic or pointless.

If what I said is so false...explain why.


Lol you DO care....otherwise you wouldn't address me so. Notice that I never initiate conversation with you. Ever.

Yet you attack me every change you get.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Goddess Kali please continue your studies.


Of Buddhism ?

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Of Buddhism ?

Yes, it takes years of study to have any benefit from Buddhism. There are no born again Buddhists. You must study everyday for all of your life to keep from falling into the evil paths.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Yes, it takes years of study to have any benefit from Buddhism. There are no born again Buddhists. You must study everyday for all of your life to keep from falling into the evil paths.


I've benefitted from Buddhism in a matter of weeks. Am I a brand new person? No..I am still learning and growing and experiencing.

However, You even earlier claimed that Nam Myo Renge Kyo opens the path to wisdom immediately.

Kinda contradicting urself there buddy....


And I admire your constant influence on my person, but please do not aim to give me lectures ok ? I don't need that.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
I've benefitted from Buddhism in a matter of weeks. Am I a brand new person? No..I am still learning and growing and experiencing.

However, You even earlier claimed that Nam Myo Renge Kyo opens the path to wisdom immediately.

Kinda contradicting urself there buddy....


And I admire your constant influence on my person, but please do not aim to give me lectures ok ? I don't need that.

Nam Myo Renge Kyo is just the beginning. All I am trying to say is strive to continue.


Don't get defencive, but Alliance has a valid point. Learn from it.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Nam Myo Renge Kyo is just the beginning. All I am trying to say is strive to continue.


I do not wish to learn all the secrets of the universe, nor to rise above other people.

Buddhism is my philosophy, not my religion. I don't want a religion. Buddhism has given me a better outlook on life, and on people in general, but I am not going to attempt to find all that I need to find simply through Buddhist practice.

Buddhist Practice will help me learn to control myself and tame my emotions, but that's about all I desire. Anything else I learn from Buddhism will be a plus for me.

I still want to experience this world, and I read on Buddhism all the time. I find much of it interesting, truthful, and beautiful.


But every person is different. We each have to find our own way.






Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Don't get defencive, but Alliance has a valid point. Learn from it.


Alliance's "point" is that I am a ****ing sick, degrading, low-life retart...what is thier to possibly learn from such a childish judgement ?


Please...his words fall on deaf ears. He cares about what I say too much, and doesn't realize that his words mean absolutely nothing to me. I am just grow tired of him following me on every single thread with his 2 cents.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
...


Alliance's "point" is that I am a ****ing sick, degrading, low-life retart...what is thier to possibly learn from such a childish judgement ?


Please...his words fall on deaf ears. He cares about what I say too much, and doesn't realize that his words mean absolutely nothing to me. I am just grow tired of him following me on every single thread with his 2 cents.

That is not the point that I was talking about. If I were to be as crude to women on this forum as you have been to men on this forum, I would have been banned. Please keep your sexuality to yourself is my blunt point.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That is not the point that I was talking about. If I were to be as crude to women on this forum as you have been to men on this forum, I would have been banned. Please keep your sexuality to yourself is my blunt point.


Who have I been crude to ?


Secondly, if my tendency to make jokes constantly referencing homosexuality annoys you, than just say so directly.

But please do not attempt to lecture me, as if anything I say on KMC, joking or serious, has any effect on my real life, or represents my person in any factual way.

You have a strict self discipline. I do not. Get over it.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Who have I been crude to ?


Secondly, if my tendency to make jokes constantly referencing homosexuality annoys you, than just say so directly.

But please do not attempt to lecture me, as if anything I say on KMC, joking or serious, has any effect on my real life, or represents my person in any factual way.

You have a strict self discipline. I do not. Get over it.

I have told you...

Thoughts lead to actions. Therefore, you are wrong when you say that what you do here does not effect you in your real life.

Discipline is the key to Buddhism. If you do not have discipline, how can you have a Buddhist practice?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I have told you...

Thoughts lead to actions. Therefore, you are wrong when you say that what you do here does not effect you in your real life.


If I say that I want to have sex with Jesus, then that means that I will eventually have sex with Jesus....


No, i know what you mean. But you misunderstand me. I have a variety of thoughts, and you know this. My actions are only a consequence of the thoughts I decide to enact upon.


I've had sex with different men before, yes..so what ? why do you care ? How is that "wrong" ? If that's what you are even implying.

Secondly, what thoughts do you speak of ?

What thoughts do I display that you feel are leading me towards a negative path ?




Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Discipline is the key to Buddhism. If you do not have discipline, how can you have a Buddhist practice?



I said I do not have a strict self discipline like you do. Just because I do not act like you, doesn't make me a bad or misguided person.

There is far more to Buddhism then self control.


I do not have to be in total control of my thoughts, feelings, and actions to love other people, or to help others achieve some sort of happiness.

And on that note, how do you know I am not in control ? How do you know I do not choose to behave this way for my own reasons ?

Originally posted by Nellinator
Studies indicate a high correlation between meaningful faith and happiness... I've read that too. Faith in something greater.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
I've benefitted from Buddhism in a matter of weeks. Am I a brand new person? No..I am still learning and growing and experiencing.

Thats almost exactly like born-agains.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
However, You even earlier claimed that Nam Myo Renge Kyo opens the path to wisdom immediately.
Thats not a contradiciton at all. The PATH to wisdom is not wisdom itself...just like all religions, there has to be a process to obtain a goal. How long did it take Siddartha to become enlightened? I doubt you're beating him.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
And I admire your constant influence on my person, but please do not aim to give me lectures ok ? I don't need that.

Sometimes people need to be told, up front.Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Please...his words fall on deaf ears. He cares about what I say too much, and doesn't realize that his words mean absolutely nothing to me. I am just grow tired of him following me on every single thread with his 2 cents.

You're the one always running and screaming about how you're so above al this. Your recent posts are either childish criticisms of Christianity or sex posts. I find that annoying. I don't follow you. I post in the following forums: Signatures, Star Wars, Religion, and the GDF...occaisionally in Philosophy and the OTF. Thats nto following, I rarely even respon to your posts.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Secondly, if my tendency to make jokes constantly referencing homosexuality annoys you, than just say so directly.

Except if you do, as I have done, you get defensive and scream about stalking.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
But please do not attempt to lecture me, as if anything I say on KMC, joking or serious, has any effect on my real life, or represents my person in any factual way.

Then why are you here?

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
You have a strict self discipline. I do not. Get over it.

Then learn some or be banned. You are responsible for your actions and if you have no self-discipline, you're not a very good Buddhist are you?Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Buddhism is my philosophy, not my religion. I don't want a religion.

Again, a philosophy cannot be seperated from the religion. Under your assessment, JIA is not really a Christian. He doesn't actuall promote ritual or religious structure, he simply follows the philosophy of Chirstianity as he sees it. If you are Buddhist, or trying to be one, you are engaging in religion. There is no "I'm Buddhist, but athiest"

Originally posted by Alliance
Thats almost exactly like born-agains...

That's what you get when Christians become Buddhists. They have a hard time letting go of that "born again" mentality. Buddhist is a path that we follow for all of our lives.

Originally posted by cking
Adam and eve were vegetarians because there was no sin no, so no animal was killed to cover their nakedness. before they sinned, between them and the animals, their was no killing and everyone got along.

Meh, vegetables are just animals that can't run away. The same force of "life" is in them. I'm vegetarian, but I don't see myself as being more benevolent than before because I'm not "killing". Death is necessary for life.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Meh, vegetables are just animals that can't run away.

Though I'm a vegetarian, lets not talk about vegetables in a way that I might imagine them having feelings.......I'd have to whack it good before I eat it so that's it's unconscious...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That's what you get when Christians become Buddhists. They have a hard time letting go of that "born again" mentality. Buddhist is a path that we follow for all of our lives.
People are allowed to create synergies though. Christians would say the same about Buddhists who became Christians.

Not all Christians are born agains though. While the faiths are very different, some elements are the same.

Originally posted by Alliance
People are allowed to create synergies though. Christians would say the same about Buddhists who became Christians.

Not all Christians are born agains though. While the faiths are very different, some elements are the same.

I think you are telling me something I already know, but I'm not sure.

Research showed that there is no evidence whatsoever that moral recommendations, such as abstinence, have any impact that might prevent infection and curb the epidemic. While people are dying, religious ideology is placed before human needs.

Tainted condoms? *slaps forehead*

I guess the Catholics were running out of rational arguments to stop the spread of potentially life-saving contraception.

...not. The poor kid died, due to her parent's blind faith, ignorance, and all-around stupidity. It's a sad story, really. The girl probably trusted her parent's judgement and thought she was going to get better with the power of God. Little did she know, her parents were just as naive as her. ;______;

Source here: http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/28/prayer.death.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

OMG, I laughed so hard

"Leilani Neumann, 40, previously said she never expected her daughter to die. The family believes in the Bible, which says healing comes from God, but they have nothing against doctors, she said."

Do you think she now believes God "pwned" her?

-Edit

Even though this is an older story, this is what I am talking about when Sithsaber post one of his "Man gets sodomized by gorilla and has face bitten off, yet survives because of Jesus through prayer." threads. Where was God here? Why isn't God accountable when the prayers aren't answered? I'm not saying you can't thank God for said "miracle", but saying "God did it!" as fact, is foolish.

OLD

Medicine wouldn't have worked anywho, god wanted her to DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
OLD


no

Originally posted by Bardiel13
...not. The poor kid died, due to her parent's blind faith, ignorance, and all-around stupidity. It's a sad story, really. The girl probably trusted her parent's judgement and thought she was going to get better with the power of God. Little did she know, her parents were just as naive as her. ;______;

Source here: http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/28/prayer.death.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
This happened quite a while ago. They've just recently found out the cause of death but I heard about a while ago.

"Family and friends had urged Dale and Leilani Neumann to get help for their daughter, but the father considered the illness "a test of faith" and the mother never considered taking the girl to the doctor because she thought her daughter was under a "spiritual attack," the criminal complaint said.

"It is very surprising, shocking that she wasn't allowed medical intervention," Marathon County District Attorney Jill Falstad said. "Her death could have been prevented."

Madeline Neumann died March 23 -- Easter Sunday -- at her family's rural Weston home. Her parents were told the body would be taken to Madison for an autopsy the next day.

"They responded, 'You won't need to do that. She will be alive by then,"' the medical examiner wrote in a report.

"A day before Madeline died, according to the criminal complaint, the father wrote an e-mail with the headline, "Help our daughter needs emergency prayer!!!!." It said his daughter was "very weak and pale at the moment with hardly any strength"


Unreal.

Originally posted by Kelly_Bean
This happened quite a while ago. They've just recently found out the cause of death but I heard about a while ago.


Originally posted by Schecter
no

Yeah, I dunno about you guys calling it old. The kid died like a month ago, if that's considered "old." Sadly, this premise is nothing new, so you may have heard of a story like this before.

for ****s sake people the article is dated TODAY because the charges of second degree homocide were filed TODAY

This is truly a disturbing story. Although, it is not the first time i have read or saw a news report about a father or mother imprisoning their child only to abuse for their own pleasure. Their is so much to absorb from this story i have to resort to my more cynical side and say, "well, i cant wait for the movie."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/27/AR2008042700752.html

i just think they didnt pray enough.

Originally posted by McLovin
friends had urged Dale and Leilani

Maybe if they'd cashed in their series 1-10 NASCAR trading card collectables, the kid might have stood a chance.

Zing.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Zing.

Hey, I like to cut people up into the same categoris as the evening news. What can I say?

Originally posted by Bardiel13
Yeah, I dunno about you guys calling it old. The kid died like a month ago, if that's considered "old." Sadly, this premise is nothing new, so you may have heard of a story like this before.
I never said it was "old," I said "a while ago" just incase you were referring to me.

When this story came out about 3 weeks ago, I thought someone would have made a thread about it in the GDF within milliseconds. I was shocked when there was no sign of it. I'll check back in June for signs of the polygamist story, but considering that it looks like a bunch of hooligans carrying out a made-up religious cult, I doubt it'll even get a thread.

Originally posted by chithappens
OMG, I laughed so hard

You laughed at a little girl dying...

Originally posted by ScarletSpeed
You laughed at a little girl dying... He laughed hard at a little girl dying.

I laughed too, sounded funny.

Originally posted by Bardock42
He laughed hard at a little girl dying. I laughed at that and only that.

The parents are fecking idiots.

That's terrible, she died cause her parents are spongos.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Depends on what you call religion....some believe that a vegetarian diet is what was created in the garden of eden and taught by Jesus if he was an Essene...And medical professions do agree with this...and, faith does work many times in heeling's, but not always...I do believe in miracles, and I've seen some...But I believe it is not so much a in "This name or that name." but a strong belief in a power...since this happens in many faiths across the world.

Some religions are very detrimental to a persons state of mind and or family and children with such odd restrictions and guilt that the human mind wasn't made to function in, that state which suppresses natural human emotions and can lead to problems later in life. Many families have broken up because of very restrictive or imagined guilt and superstitions.

I agree.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
I agree.

How strange.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
I agree.

Talking and agreeing with yourself on a message board could be construed as a sign of mental illness, just saying.

Just because YOU can't do my specail trip.......hahaha

The "pray and we'll get better" yahoos are on the fringe, and desite a few newsworthy articles are so rare as to be a negligible part of the discussion.

Where religious practices intervene moreso on medicine is in eartern practices...or rather, those who practice eastern religion and also falsely ascribe alternative medical practices to such beliefs. The medicinal affects of being stress free, relaxed, etc. are well-known, but most practices go beyond this into pseudo-scientific garbage. At best, they are a placebo, having no more or less affect than, say, a good massage. At worst, they are potentially harmful and lack empirical testing to support themselves.

"Alternative" is a popular term in medicine these days, but must always be taken with a heavy grain of salt due to the fact that the word alternative generally means it lacks the proper test results that mainstream medicine demands of its products.

Originally posted by Robtard
Talking and agreeing with yourself on a message board could be construed as a sign of mental illness, just saying.

Shhhhhh, don't let her know... It could be disorienting for her.

i like the idea of stupid people refusing medicine and praying.

It could be seen as a form of natural selection & survival of the fittest, so take that ID-clowns!

Originally posted by Robtard
It could be seen as a form of natural selection & survival of the fittest, so take that ID-clowns!

But if 1 out of 100 survive, then it will be a miracle and proof of the hand of god in their minds. We don't want to feed their delusion.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But if 1 out of 100 survive, then it will be a miracle and proof of the hand of god in their minds. We don't want to feed their delusion.

That already happens, see any of Sithsaber's "man survives after being terminally diagnosed, Jesus saved him" threads.

Originally posted by Robtard
That already happens, see any of Sithsaber's "man survives after being terminally diagnosed, Jesus saved him" threads.

True, but now we can put then in jail.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But if 1 out of 100 survive, then it will be a miracle and proof of the hand of god in their minds. We don't want to feed their delusion.

that can only lead to more dead idiots. win/win

Yeah, I kinda like Schecter's line of thinking. I might just have to become a "Jesus Saves" anti-Darwinian to do my part for natural selection.

biscuits

The mind is powerful when it comes to the body. Belief can heal us, to a point.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The mind is powerful when it comes to the body. Belief can heal us, to a point.


How far can one's mind heal thier body ?


I beleive it, but I get so much mixed information

Originally posted by LatinoStallion
How far can one's mind heal thier body ?


I beleive it, but I get so much mixed information

I don't know the point of no return. There are some forces of nature that the mind cannot over come.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I don't know the point of no return. There are some forces of nature that the mind cannot over come.

Like ?

Originally posted by LatinoStallion
Like ?

A 45 slug at point blank range?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
A 45 slug at point blank range?





I was talking more in terms of diseases. However, keep in mind, some people have survived getting shot, even stabbed, in the head.

Originally posted by LatinoStallion



I was talking more in terms of diseases. However, keep in mind, some people have survived getting shot, even stabbed, in the head.

That is why I said I don't know.

Also two more things on that note:



Some Nicheren Buddhists beleive you can stimulate your immune system by concentrating on your thyroid and spleen to active further production of antibodies and white t cells to combat foriegn invaders.

I found this somewhere, i will find the link.


Also, I beleive stem cell research will make a huggge difference. Scientists have already produced fresh human blood, and have grown a human heart in the lab.

Originally posted by LatinoStallion
Also two more things on that note:



Some Nicheren Buddhists beleive you can stimulate your immune system by concentrating on your thyroid and spleen to active further production of antibodies and white t cells to combat foriegn invaders.

I found this somewhere, i will find the link.


Also, I beleive stem cell research will make a huggge difference. Scientists have already produced fresh human blood, and have grown a human heart in the lab.

Yes, and Mozart can be played on guitar. My point is that is take time and practice to increase and use this ability, but anyone can to it.

Originally posted by Schecter
i like the idea of stupid people refusing medicine and praying. That's what happened to you, huh.


Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But if 1 out of 100 survive, then it will be a miracle and proof of the hand of god in their minds. We don't want to feed their delusion. We don't??? Damn, I was gonna start the "First Church of RA." I was gonna hand out T-shirts and everything.
cry

Originally posted by Deja~vu
That's what happened to you, huh.


We don't??? Damn, I was gonna start the "First Church of RA." I was gonna hand out T-shirts and everything.
cry

Why would a sun worshiping church need T-shirts? Everyone should be topless.

So we could say RA RA RA?

Originally posted by Deja~vu
So we could say RA RA RA?

You forgot to turn the letters blue.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You forgot to turn the letters blue.

Okay me will fix it.

Worship RA la te da, for all your gods are based on RA.

RA RA RA

Originally posted by Deja~vu


Okay me will fix it.

Worship RA la te da, for all your gods are based on RA.

RA RA RA

You convinced me.

Let' s stick to the topic.

Thanks Storm:

Anyway, religion doesn't contribute to health. Being healthy and doing healthy things does. This includes low stress and happiness, which religion can and does provide for some people, but it is far from the sole cause of such emotions.

And to summarize my earlier post: Alternative medicines are placebos, at best, and at worst are unsupported with evidence and potentially harmful to those who use them. The minute they are corroborated with empirical evidence, they no longer need the "alternative" tag and can be considered mainstream medicine, without the need to set up an alternative anything.

Thoughts or comments?

Aspirin is made from the White Willow tree. It's an alternative medicine.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
Aspirin is made from the White Willow tree. It's an alternative medicine. Nah, the most popular medicine in this world hardly qualifies as "alternative". It's part of conventional medicine now.

Either way, I disagree with Digi's assessment of alternative medicine being placebos at best. Clearly, at best they are very functioning and useful types of medicine that should and likely will be included in conventional medicine.

What makes no sense is that the argument used by most proponents of intelligent design is that words, thoughts, language and understanding of certain aspects of existence imply the absolute validity of intelligent design, ala a GOD. But such an argument is based upon the understanding of the person arguing and their particular ability to comprehend the meanings and objectives of the designer: which is the perfection of their own existence, which is contrary to the very religious ideas espoused by their own religion. If "intelligent design" is so valid, then that considers the idea that evolution has an ultimate goal, which is a theory proposed only by supporters of intelligent design( read: supporters of creationism who assume rationale) when it comes to the flawed understanding of evolution. So, evolution is an admittance of not knowing what the end result will or could be, while creationism is the presumption of the end result; which is making man more like god. And how old is the idea that if man eats from the tree of knowledge and gains insight, that it will result in the notion of abandonment of the GOD DELUSION? Or morals and justice and freedom and understanding?

Where is the middle ground? Why does there have to be an all-knowing santa god for there to be some measure of existence after this one? Physics prove there is no destruction of energy, but it falls far short of ever even beginning to justify a faith in a god who keeps a list and checks it twice, or feels the need to create himself as a flesh and blood being to understand his own creation? And what's more, why the need to do so within the parameters of so many legends and myths that had permeated every single human culture that had predated it? Was god speaking in terms we could understand, or was it the need for a god delusion; created by men who thought they could use the opportunity to gain some measure of control over others who sought the answers to questions we all have?

As I have said multiple times, men of faith need others to conform as a greedy measure of their own self-justification. One man can feel better about his own religious choices as long as he can get another to agree with him. Basically, all your religions are SHIT.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
Aspirin is made from the White Willow tree. It's an alternative medicine.

It underwent numerous tests, with repeatable positive results. Thus, it's mainstream and has proven and testable benefits. If "alternative" medicine could boast the same consistent results, it wouldn't have to set itself up as the "feel-good" counter-culture to regular medicine, which they like to portray as self-interested companies and unfeeling governments. Those exist, but the system we have in place is far better in terms of accountability than untested herbs and practices whose sole defense is that it uses vaguely Eastern terminology to mask the fact that it has no real business being in medicine.

Aroma therapy, crystal therapy, acupuncture, use of magnets on the body, homoepathic remedies, herbal supplements (aside from a select few whose affects are actually proven...St. John's Wort is the only one I know of for certain), quantum healing, etc. All bogus placebos, at best, and in the case of some of the more exotic supplements (there are hundreds of variations), potentially harmful.

Originally posted by Devil King


Lulz. Wrong thread bud.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Is that a reference to Moses, Jesus or both?

Originally posted by Adam_PoE


Cool link, but is this on topic?

Any uplifting beliefs can make a difference in ones life. It it in harmoney with ones thinging of what if and, with that strenghtens their own immune systems just with the power of the thought. Thought is in my opinion the best medicine to a persons whole body.

You think, so there you are. You think and it can make it come true.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
Any uplifting beliefs can make a difference in ones life. It it in harmoney with ones thinging of what if and, with that strenghtens their own immune systems just with the power of the thought. Thought is in my opinion the best medicine to a persons whole body.

You think, so there you are. You think and it can make it come true.

Thinking can't change physical reality. Like I said, the medicinal effects of a positive outlook are well known, and have direct biological correlates that can aid in health. But that's all it is, and doesn't extend to a mystical mind-over-matter type of link. You don't "think" yourself into better health, regardless of what conviction you believe it with.

I'm all for making your own reality, but only so far as you view it...you can make any situation a positive, happy one. But to take that too far and say your thoughts have power over physical phenomenon is both false and potentially harmful. It's subjective interpretation of reality that our minds have control over, not the actual physical aspect of it. It's almost no better than the religious zealots who think prayer will heal them, except you're internalizing the perceived cause rather than exporting it to an external God.

Your thinking likely isn't destructive or harmful, and so it's relatively harmless and almost cute, but similar sentiments all too often do lead to unfortunate situations because they aren't based in reason.

Not necessarily true. Even placebos allude to this.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
Not necessarily true. Even placebos allude to this.

Placebo affects are documented and both causal and biological, as well as small enough to (usually) be a medicinal non-factor. They don't reinforce the claim that we can alter matter (because that's what it is) with our thoughts. I'd love to be proven wrong, I really would. There's a lot of intuitive appeal to what you're saying. But it's just not reasonable without some justification.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Placebo affects are documented and both causal and biological, as well as small enough to (usually) be a medicinal non-factor. They don't reinforce the claim that we can alter matter (because that's what it is) with our thoughts. I'd love to be proven wrong, I really would. There's a lot of intuitive appeal to what you're saying. But it's just not reasonable without some justification. no see its like, if you BELIEVE hard enough, you can make ponies appear. we can alter reality with our, ya know, our minds. just let the acid take hold and be freeeee.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Lulz. Wrong thread bud.

Maybe for the conversation going on at the moment, but religion was my point.

Originally posted by Devil King
Maybe for the conversation going on at the moment, but religion was my point.

Fair enough. Right forum, wrong thread.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Fair enough. Right forum, wrong thread.



No; right thread, wrong moment in it.

Originally posted by Devil King
No; right thread, wrong moment in it.

Evolution/ID applies to religion and health? I'd ask you to explain, but I fear losing this thread to a needless evo/ID discussion like so many other threads.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Placebo affects are documented and both causal and biological, as well as small enough to (usually) be a medicinal non-factor. They don't reinforce the claim that we can alter matter (because that's what it is) with our thoughts. I'd love to be proven wrong, I really would. There's a lot of intuitive appeal to what you're saying. But it's just not reasonable without some justification. The mind is a most powerful medicine.

BTW valium is made from valerian..I.E., natural alternative.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
The mind is a most powerful medicine.

BTW valium is made from valerian..I.E., natural alternative.

I don't think you're quite getting the point. Anything could have been considered alternative at one point, because all medicines at one time lacked the empirical results needed to validate them as legitimate medicines for specific purposes. But as soon as you get those results, and those results are duplicated, a product ceases to be alternative. Thus, something like valium, which the realm of "alternative" cannot claim as its own.

In the meantime, people will jump at any hair-brained idea regardless of its rational validity. Those that remain on the fringes of medical practice are alternative because they don't have evidence to support themselves beyond chance or mild placebo. So they are not validated by the accrediting bodies within our country, and must present themselves with a host of propoganda and misleading terms: "natural, herbal, vibrational healing, quantum, etc.". And please note, when I say that placebos have small affects, it means small. It is biological (chemical production), testable, in no way mystical, and is not medicine, or a cure for anything, or a preventative cause from diseases. It's a small benefit to personal health, not medicine.

If you believe you will be perfectly healthy and are, you are lucky. Or you're young enough that statistically speaking you have about as good a chance of being healthy as unhealthy (or a better chance). If you have an illness (major or minor) and attempt to "think" yourself to health, it won't work. At best it will speed the body's natural recovery by imperceptible amounts, but more likely won't do anything. If you recover, it will either be from medicinal treatments or your body's own immune system.

Loathe as I am to make the comparison, I feel like I'm debating against ID here. Show some evidence for what you're saying. Otherwise, you're deluding yourself, however pleasing the thought is to you. Fortunately, alternative medicine is (usually) not as harmful. But can be. Therein lies the danger, and it's why I speak out against it when possible.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Thanks Storm:

Anyway, religion doesn't contribute to health. Being healthy and doing healthy things does. This includes low stress and happiness, which religion can and does provide for some people, but it is far from the sole cause of such emotions.

And to summarize my earlier post: Alternative medicines are placebos, at best, and at worst are unsupported with evidence and potentially harmful to those who use them. The minute they are corroborated with empirical evidence, they no longer need the "alternative" tag and can be considered mainstream medicine, without the need to set up an alternative anything.

Thoughts or comments?


I kind of really disagree with you there...


Chinese Medicine and practices such as Acupuncture are still considered "alternative medicine" even though they have reaped considerable benefits for a variety of conditions.

I actually know first hand how well an "alternative" solution can work. My best freind went to Poland with her family last summer, and her brother suffers from Asthma as well as chronic fatigue. They met someone there who prescribed them herbs and told them to take them for months. I know her brother very well and he's no longer using his inhaler.

His Asthma isn't "cured" by medical standards, but it has certainly improved in one year. He hasn't had an attack since, and he has been hitting the gym, losing weight and doing a lot of cardio without a problem.

Nothing given to him by our mainstream American medical professionals helped him anywhere to that degree.


And you can doubt it all you want, but I know what I've seen here. I've known him for years, and I know how bad his condition has been. And to see it dramatically improve in one year because of this one alternate therapy he underwent is just mind boggling.





Now, I am not outright advocating Alternative Medicine. You should always do your research before getting involved in any sort of therapy. However, you can't just let your doctor make all your decisions for you. Most doctors will simply prescribe this and that, and there you go...with the risk of allergic reactions and sometimes fatal side effects.

And please don't get me started with the FDA and thier approval standards...there's more involved than health when it comes to thier making decisions on how to label or classify a product.



I thnk if you are sick, you should do all your own research. I beleive very few doctors actually care how well you get, and ultimately the medical profession is a business first.

I'll have to comment later, as I'm busy the next few days.

Anecdotes don't make an argument, and they actually showcase the lack of legitimate evidence in most cases. In your example, my response is simple: I've stated that many herbal supplements are potentially harmful. Implied in such a statement is that they are potentially helpful as well. The problem comes with a lack of repeatable results. You are just as likely, perhaps moreso, to take something that will worsen your condition, or have no affect whatsoever on your condition. Anecdotes don't equal repeated evidence, they equal case studies. And even if you're right, one successful herb doesn't validate all others....it just means your friend got lucky with which illness/herb he/she took.

Also lost is the investigation of such case studies. If this happened over a period of months and years, there are numerous interpretations of the "cure." The illness went into recession, responding to the changing physiology of the changing body, climate change, eating or exercise patterns, an overstatement of the initial illness, placebo affects from the medicine, etc. We can't know these because no evidence exists on these alternative methods. If they are legitimate, they soon produce results. If not, they continue to swim in the "alternative" muck.

Acupuncture is a placebo. A potentially powerful placebo, but nothing more. It might have small affects, but nothing beyond the affects that, say, a massage would produce, though people are far more likely to report greater success because of the expectancy of positive results. I know I can cite numerous scientific studies to back up my opinion. So instead of bothering with that at the moment, I'm curious to see if you have just heard that there's a benefit to it, or if you're basing your claim on something more substantial.

As for your dismissal of the FDA and similar accrediting organizations, it's clear you're familiar with some alternative medicine advocates, because a gigantic part of the promotion and propoganda for their products is to discredit the competition by speaking to the ills of such institutions. In fact, without such propoganda they would have practically no argument to stand on, so most serious alternative medicine advocates are as manipulative as they are vindictive toward the FDA. Occasionally they are right about the beaurocracy of such groups, though it is necessarily overstated to strengthen their cause. But the flip side of that coin is the FDA, despite some flaws, actually has a process by which medicine become accredited. Alternative solutions do not, because they have no accountability whatsoever. I'm not going to say it's perfect (it's not), but it's an accrediting system that places the emphasis on empirical results that can be seen to be above chance and placebo, can be repeated, and have low risk of side affects. It's easy to shine a bright light on the competition, but when one turns the same light on the world of alternative medicine, one finds a scary lack of accountability and rational backing. It's ok to see the FDA as an evil, but it's certainly the lesser of the two.

Also lost is the fact that if most alternative cures had empirical and repeatable positive results, they'd find a financial backer and get accredited almost immediately, since there's more money to be made in mainstream medicine more often than not. The fact that they don't speaks volumes.

...

As for doctors, I'd say that it's one thing to say that medical institutions or insurance companies don't care, but individual doctors, by and large, do. If you have something other than a vague apprehension toward them, please explain why, because otherwise I fail to see how the vast majority of doctors wouldn't have your best interests in mind or present the most logical options to their patients.

I know I said I'd stray from name-dropping, but a great place to start with such ideas is John Diamond's Snake Oil and Other Preoccupations, which includes touching and tragic personal anecdotes but also focuses on hard data (and lack thereof) from the world of alternative cures.

Why? Is someone trying to sell you snake oil?

Originally posted by Deja~vu
Why? Is someone trying to sell you snake oil?

Snake Oil is a well-known term that refers to anything that is somehow disreputable, shady, or dishonest. It alludes to the old cliche of the "cure all" that would be peddled in centuries past by hucksters who played upon the credulity and lack of knowledge among the general public. Often such "medicines" were reputed to contain snake venom or oils from a snake body. Whether they did or not is uncertain, but that is the myth surrounding it.

In modern times, many homeopathic remedies also contain negligible amounts of snake venom, thus lending the allusion a modern poignancy.