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Sentry seems to be all talk He has the power of a million exploding suns........right......................prove it

Phoenix has hung in with Galactus but.......

NEVER beaten him or anyone much above herald class to my knowledge.

So

Who wins?

or are they all talk

Originally posted by whirlysplat
Sentry seems to be all talk He has the power of a million exploding suns........right......................prove it

Phoenix has hung in with Galactus but.......

NEVER beaten him or anyone much above herald class to my knowledge.

So

Who wins?

or are they all talk

they are all talk....

Thats what the poll is showing as well

Well?

Sentry and X-Man beat Galactus though. Off panel, but well documented.

I'll still vote for Phoenix though.

Not "beat". Fought. Huge difference.

And it's not "well-documented", it's a single mention that never got referenced again.

Turn the fanboy mode off.

https://i.ibb.co/Cn3B5L4/batr.png

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW


Not "beat". Fought. Huge difference.

And it's not "well-documented", it's a single mention that never got referenced again.

Turn the fanboy mode off.

It was mentioned on more than one occasion so you cant stop with that garbage.

Sentry and X-Man stopped Galactus from doing what he sat out to do. Take that for what you will.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/4/47437/1207227-1101408__superman.jpg

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-104425bc485302836a54b512fb8b4c00-lq

Originally posted by tkitna
It was mentioned on more than one occasion so you cant stop with that garbage.

No, it wasn't.

Spider-Man's mention could be a completely different adventure, for all we know. And Sentry didn't beat anyone there, either.

Originally posted by tkitna
Sentry and X-Man stopped Galactus from doing what he sat out to do. Take that for what you will.



That's your overinterpretation. We know no details of that incident.

Stop being ridiculous.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
No, it wasn't.

Spider-Man's mention could be a completely different adventure, for all we know. And Sentry didn't beat anyone there, either.





That's your overinterpretation. We know no details of that incident.

Stop being ridiculous.

I just posted two examples and I believe there is another one out there too.

Who cares what adventure it was? It was said and even gave the details - fought him to a standstill. Why is that hard for you to understand? Not one time was that fight denied by anybody in any book. It happened whether you like it or not.

Now Terrax is a jobber, but what Sentry did to him... was interesting. The truth is Sentry was always kept away from big bads till Knull where weakness exploitation from Knull was in operation, although as always it's down to the writer. Is it impossible for someone who in one cannon comic had better matter manipulation than molecule man and could pop up after the Morgana incident, not such a big leap if the creators want it.

Originally posted by tkitna
I just posted two examples and I believe there is another one out there too.

It didn't happen on-panel.

And it wasn't confirmed by either Galactus or Sentry. No statements from impartial narrator, nothing for us to work with, frankly.

Originally posted by tkitna
Who cares what adventure it was? It was said and even gave the details - fought him to a standstill. Why is that hard for you to understand? Not one time was that fight denied by anybody in any book. It happened whether you like it or not.

Yes, to a standstill. Not "beat" him, as you were trying to say. Stop lying about your favorite schizophrenic, please.

We don't know the context, we don't know the details... entirely possible it's nothing more than a myth, tbh.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
It didn't happen on-panel.

And it wasn't confirmed by either Galactus or Sentry. No statements from impartial narrator, nothing for us to work with, frankly.



Yes, to a standstill. Not "beat" him, as you were trying to say. Stop lying about your favorite schizophrenic, please.

We don't know the context, we don't know the details... entirely possible it's nothing more than a myth, tbh.

Because it wasnt on-panel doesnt mean it didnt happen. It was pretty much confirmed by Sentry when he was surprised X-Man remembered those adventures after Sentry wiped everybodys minds.

They fought due to some kind of reason. I'm sure it wasnt just for the heck of it. As for the 'standstill', appears that was good enough as Galactus was unable to beat them and characters like Spider-Man who bring up the conflict are still here to talk about it.

I'm not sure why your trying so hard to under sell something that happened according to more than one character on more than one occasion. If it was just Sentry boasting about it with nobody else witnessing it or being there, than you would have a point, but thats not the case.

Originally posted by tkitna
Because it wasnt on-panel doesnt mean it didnt happen. It was pretty much confirmed by Sentry when he was surprised X-Man remembered those adventures after Sentry wiped everybodys minds.

Sure. But we need something to work with. We got... nothing of substance. And you know it.

No, it wasn't confirmed by Sentry. He is mentally ill and just vanished, confused by X-Man's words.

Wouldn't be the first time Nate decided to play with someone's fragile psyche in order to get the advantage, btw.

Originally posted by tkitna
They fought due to some kind of reason. I'm sure it wasnt just for the heck of it. As for the 'standstill', appears that was good enough as Galactus was unable to beat them and characters like Spider-Man who bring up the conflict are still here to talk about it.

Spider-Man loves to exaggerate and omit all the important details. He is a terrible source.

Such as when he mentioned punching the Hulk into orbit... conveniently forgetting how he was empowered by the Uni-Power at the time.

For all we know, Sentry could have had the Infinity Gauntlet.

Originally posted by tkitna
I'm not sure why your trying so hard to under sell something that happened according to more than one character on more than one occasion. If it was just Sentry boasting about it with nobody else witnessing it or being there, than you would have a point, but thats not the case.

Stop, please.

Nobody has ever been treating this type of non-feats seriously.

Lip service by the third party, that's the best Sentry has, yes? Cute.

Look, we're never going to come to an agreement here so we might as well just stop. I mean, everybody knows how powerful Galactus is and Sentry fought him to a standstill with characters confirming it. Its odd to deny or not believe what the characters said, but you do you.

BTW, I voted for Phoenix when all is said and done.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW


Not "beat". Fought. Huge difference.

And it's not "well-documented", it's a single mention that never got referenced again.

Turn the fanboy mode off. Not to mention Galactus is a character whose power fluctuates wildly even in-universe so using an off-panel nondescript fight with Galactus as a feat for any herald or above level character is dicey.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Not to mention Galactus is a character whose power fluctuates wildly even in-universe so using an off-panel nondescript fight with Galactus as a feat for any herald or above level character is dicey. as is Sentry, for that matter

Originally posted by tkitna
Look, we're never going to come to an agreement here so we might as well just stop. I mean, everybody knows how powerful Galactus is and Sentry fought him to a standstill with characters confirming it. Its odd to deny or not believe what the characters said, but you do you.

BTW, I voted for Phoenix when all is said and done.

See, that's the thing -- there is no bona fide "confirmation" of any sort.

And no "characters", as in plural, bringing up Bob fighting Big G to a standstill, specifically.

Only Spider-Man has phrased it that way. Same Spider-Man who is the biggest effeminate clown in the whole Marvel Universe next to Deadpool:

https://i.ibb.co/Vw668K5/339987513-791254101.jpg

Parker's inferiority complex, along with him idolizing and faboying over the more successful heroes, that's nothing new:

https://i.ibb.co/jw2vJD3/spfs.png

--
X-Man said they "fought" him together - no details of their performance - they might have very well been mere Batrocs to Galactus' Cap (which is still well above Sentry's pay grade, mind you):

https://i.ibb.co/YtF27gJ/batr.png

We wouldn't be having this little discussion if you hadn't been making shit up from the start.

"They beat Galactus! Well-documented!"

Bro, you've gone full carver here. Never go full carver.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

We wouldn't be having this little discussion if you hadn't been making shit up from the start.

"They beat Galactus! Well-documented!"

Bro, you've gone full carver here. Never go full carver.

My bad. Sorry, Galactus was fought to a standstill with neither side being able to clearly beat the other.

Is that better for you?

Regardless, it still takes a helluva powerful character to accomplish that.

Sure, but again - we don't know a tiny bit of context of that encounter.

When it happened? Where it happened? Why it happened?

What we do know is that Parker loves to blow things out of proportion and miss all the fine details:

https://i.ibb.co/rxsgn8w/spm.png

Originally posted by tkitna
My bad. Sorry, Galactus was fought to a standstill with neither side being able to clearly beat the other.

Is that better for you?

Regardless, it still takes a helluva powerful character to accomplish that. or scare Genis Vell, no doubt Sentry had some great feats that mean he could really accomplish anything given the right writer.

Sentry at his best would beat Phoenix.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Sure, but again - we don't know a tiny bit of context of that encounter.

When it happened? Where it happened? Why it happened?

What we do know is that Parker loves to blow things out of proportion and miss all the fine details:


Granted the fine details were not given, but the feat itself appears to be as legit as can be. X-Man brought it up along with other adventures he and Sentry were in together and Sentry was shocked he remembered.

Regardless, its all good.

It's just hearsay, which is as far from being a legit feat as possible.

Sentry was confused as **** and instead of embracing his friend, he left him to face Dark Avengers alone. Not exactly a good proof of anything, unless you want to argue how non-credible Sentry is, given his extremely poor mental health.

Originally posted by h1a8
Sentry at his best would beat Phoenix. Possibly, I think the molecule man incident suggests so, remember mm is above Galactus and Phoenix at that point in time. If the writer decides he can do that, the bullpen obviously thinks anything is possible, Editorial go ahead and all that. Although Shooter's rules have fallen by the wayside at Marvel and DC in the last 20 years.

I remember this thread. Memories!

This was when Whirly was in the midst of his troll era so i ignored it.

If this is a Phoenix host we're talking about then this is a battle. The average host wins 6/10, the most powerful win 9/10

If we're talking the Phoenix Force, then this thread is ridiculous. 10/10 PF wins.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I remember this thread. Memories!

This was when Whirly was in the midst of his troll era so i ignored it.

If this is a Phoenix host we're talking about then this is a battle. The average host wins 6/10, the most powerful win 9/10

If we're talking the Phoenix Force, then this thread is ridiculous. 10/10 PF wins.
Do you believe Phoenix can beat Bob's most powerful form?

Originally posted by h1a8
Do you believe Phoenix can beat Bob's most powerful form?

If you mean the Phoenix Force then of course, that cant be a serious question? Where has this severe underrating come from?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If you mean the Phoenix Force then of course, that cant be a serious question? Where has this severe underrating come from? Is the Phoenix force = The Phoenix?

This thread is about Phoenix (Jean Grey).

Even if the thread was about PF then there is no way it is beating Bob's most powerful form. Mm >>>>> PF. PF can't stop Bob from reforming, assuming it can even kill Bob to begin with.

Wasnt it stated that Bob and the Phoenix were both in the White Room together when supposedly dead? Wonder if they communicated?

Off topic but just a question, because I cant remember.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I remember this thread. Memories!

This was when Whirly was in the midst of his troll era so i ignored it.

If this is a Phoenix host we're talking about then this is a battle. The average host wins 6/10, the most powerful win 9/10

If we're talking the Phoenix Force, then this thread is ridiculous. 10/10 PF wins. love you too

Originally posted by h1a8
Is the Phoenix force = The Phoenix?

This thread is about Phoenix (Jean Grey).

"The Phoenix" is a term that has been used in continuity many a time to refer to both the Phoenix Force and a host. The opening post of this thread never specified what we were dealing with here which is why in making my contribution to this thread I discussed both scenarios.

Originally posted by h1a8
Even if the thread was about PF then there is no way it is beating Bob's most powerful form. Mm >>>>> PF. PF can't stop Bob from reforming, assuming it can even kill Bob to begin with.

What a baseless, absurd perspective.

Please share the comic book scenes where this mythical full power Sentry has appeared and done something that conclusively puts him at the top tier of Marvels cosmic hierarchy? This is like full power Galactus or Superman Prime. Myths with zero on panel supporting feats, just head canon from impressionable fanboys.

The Phoenix Force is life. Sentrys very existence along with all life and reality is dependant on the PF. It is the sum and substance of all life and as stated many times over across continuity from its conception up until its most recent appearances in Jason Aarons Avengers run it is the source of all reality. The power of a million exploding suns? Every star and planet in Marvel derives from the Phoenix. Pit him against a host by all means, but the PF itself in a battle scenario where its intention is to kill him? Massacre. It could end and resurrect him at will as he is nothing but an aspect of her.

Your lack of insight into what the Phoenix is and the implications of that, is causing you to underrate it severely.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"The Phoenix" is a term that has been used in continuity many a time to refer to both the Phoenix Force and a host. The opening post of this thread never specified what we were dealing with here which is why in making my contribution to this thread I discussed both scenarios.



What a baseless, absurd perspective.

Please share the comic book scenes where this mythical full power Sentry has appeared and done something that conclusively puts him at the top tier of Marvels cosmic hierarchy? This is like full power Galactus or Superman Prime. Myths with zero on panel supporting feats, just head canon from impressionable fanboys.

The Phoenix Force is life. Sentrys very existence along with all life and reality is dependant on the PF. It is the sum and substance of all life and as stated many times over across continuity from its conception up until its most recent appearances in Jason Aarons Avengers run it is the source of all reality. The power of a million exploding suns? Every star and planet in Marvel derives from the Phoenix. Pit him against a host by all means, but the PF itself in a battle scenario where its intention is to kill him? Massacre. It could end and resurrect him at will as he is nothing but an aspect of her.

Your lack of insight into what the Phoenix is and the implications of that, is causing you to underrate it severely.

Bob overpowered MM which is more powerful than the Phoenix. Showed the ability to comeback from complete disintegration, being erased from existence, etc.

The phoenix force isn't the phoenix. The phoenix is the host that has the power of the phoenix force.

We go by feats. We have alien ships hurting the phoenix force and causing it to flee. We have Thor hurting the phoenix force. We have no feats from the phoenix force showing that it is even capable of killing Bob at his most powerful, let alone the ability to keep him dead. When did the phoenix force (or a host) just render a combatant lifeless on a whim (without a battle)? Because comics contradict that ability.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"The Phoenix" is a term that has been used in continuity many a time to refer to both the Phoenix Force and a host. The opening post of this thread never specified what we were dealing with here which is why in making my contribution to this thread I discussed both scenarios.



What a baseless, absurd perspective.

Please share the comic book scenes where this mythical full power Sentry has appeared and done something that conclusively puts him at the top tier of Marvels cosmic hierarchy? This is like full power Galactus or Superman Prime. Myths with zero on panel supporting feats, just head canon from impressionable fanboys.

The Phoenix Force is life. Sentrys very existence along with all life and reality is dependant on the PF. It is the sum and substance of all life and as stated many times over across continuity from its conception up until its most recent appearances in Jason Aarons Avengers run it is the source of all reality. The power of a million exploding suns? Every star and planet in Marvel derives from the Phoenix. Pit him against a host by all means, but the PF itself in a battle scenario where its intention is to kill him? Massacre. It could end and resurrect him at will as he is nothing but an aspect of her.

Your lack of insight into what the Phoenix is and the implications of that, is causing you to underrate it severely.

What exactly has Phoenix done on panel that is so impressive? Not trying to argue, but i'm having a hard time coming up with feats. She absorbed a star once and that might be her best feat. Galactus and others have given Phoenix a hard time.

Originally posted by h1a8
Bob overpowered MM which is more powerful than the Phoenix. Showed the ability to comeback from complete disintegration, being erased from existence, etc.

Standard Molecule Man is nowhere near as powerful as the PF. Molecule Man was a match for a larval stage, not fully powered Beyonder back in the past.

https://imgur.com/Cn87Vsv

The Beyonder states that the machinations of all the Beyonders are powered by the energies of the Phoenixes White Hot Room, a place of danger even for beings such as the Beyonders:

https://imgur.com/tFNOYzm

https://imgur.com/x1Eb3MO

https://imgur.com/q21wVoA

https://imgur.com/2TDINyU

https://imgur.com/Ev0OVKI


The fully evolved Beyonder admits that his power is miniscule compared to the full Phoenix Forces.

https://imgur.com/bRJPeiB

Originally posted by h1a8
The phoenix force isn't the phoenix. The phoenix is the host that has the power of the phoenix force.

Stop making assertions on matters you are not clued up on. Be humble.

Heres one panel describing the the Phoenix Force as both the Phoenix and the Phoenix Force demonstrating "Phoenix" and "Phoenix Force" are used interchangeably in referencing the cosmic entity:

https://imgur.com/AGF50IX

The Phoenix Force calling itself Phoenix and its host Rachel calling the Force "The Phoenix"

https://imgur.com/ffoFtjQ

The Phoenix Force referred to as "The Phoenix"

https://imgur.com/0Ejk9gE

As i stated in my previous post, the cosmic entity by canon is called the Phoenix and the Phoenix Force. Its hosts are often called the Phoenix as well.

I have proven this conclusively. Your misunderstanding.


Originally posted by h1a8
We go by feats. We have alien ships hurting the phoenix force and causing it to flee. We have Thor hurting the phoenix force. We have no feats from the phoenix force showing that it is even capable of killing Bob at his most powerful, let alone the ability to keep him dead. When did the phoenix force (or a host) just render a combatant lifeless on a whim (without a battle)? Because comics contradict that ability.

No need to tell me what we go by on this forum. I predate you.

Alien ships and Thor hurting the Phoenix mean nothing when it is ultimately mutable and entirely indestructible.

https://imgur.com/4E5ewZA

https://imgur.com/YCaT5vm

It can be divided, absorbed, metabolized and still be entirely fine. Energy cant be destroyed, only transferred and the Phoenix Forces substance is the building blocks of reality.

Your problem is, youre not getting what it is. In Marvel, everything is Phoenix Force. Every form of matter and energy within the closed system of Marvels realities is made up of Phoenix Force.

It is the sum and substance of all life.

https://imgur.com/ega038c

https://imgur.com/WLU6NXP

all reality derives from it

https://imgur.com/61vYLER

https://imgur.com/tfkFlJJ

https://imgur.com/T8qjZQG

the energies of creation and Big Bang are one and the same as the Phoenix Force

https://imgur.com/Y2HIxOA

Its constantly being devoured, used and abused and it wouldnt have it any other way as that is the nature of life that it sustains and perpetuates.

Furthermore, the firebird isnt the sum total of the Phoenix. It is just an avatar:

"The Phoenix avatar"

https://imgur.com/JNpRWMX

Rachel is said to be possessed by "this enigmatic avatar"

https://imgur.com/gBcmxPn

So the firebird itself isnt the full Phoenix. It is just a representation.

The Phoenix simultaneously makes up all reality, whilst its consciousness and core being resides in the White Hot Room. It manifests its consciousness within reality as the Firebird of which there can be many operating in reality at once.

Disrupting or shattering an avatar means not a thing.

Sentry is ultimately just a piece of Phoenix Force just like all of your Marvel faves. The Phoenix can freely give and take its essence giving and taking life at will.

Cyclops

https://imgur.com/5oTfFca

https://imgur.com/qCHVzh0

https://imgur.com/AEMmfdo

https://imgur.com/oWustVp

https://imgur.com/unhpBIX

https://imgur.com/pvoPvc8

https://imgur.com/8QFP0N0

Captain Marvel

https://imgur.com/K223vSn

https://imgur.com/HPR5K9V

https://imgur.com/x6JjUkf

https://imgur.com/waPWP7Y

https://imgur.com/Cu9qHKD

https://imgur.com/0Hsrj98

https://imgur.com/1bJY8F6


If the Phoenix Force withdrew its essence from reality, there would be a void without the smallest potential for life.

https://imgur.com/eHEpD42

The Phoenix Force isnt even reliant on life force manipulation. It can just write him out of the timeline or disintegrate him so not an atom of his being remains for him to regenerate from which he requires.

Sentry exists thanks to the Phoenix. There are levels. Pit him against the Hulk or Silver Surfer. Dont downgrade the Phoenix out of ignorance.

Originally posted by tkitna
What exactly has Phoenix done on panel that is so impressive? Not trying to argue, but i'm having a hard time coming up with feats. She absorbed a star once and that might be her best feat. Galactus and others have given Phoenix a hard time.

No wonder you dont rate her if thats the only kind of feat youre aware of

A Phoenix host temporarily held back the power of the 1st Firmament

https://imgur.com/9kPAiLU

https://imgur.com/EoBeDCE

https://imgur.com/tuViP8M

https://imgur.com/C5jzdUF

616s 1st Phoenix host Firehair then joined forces with Starbrand to rewrite the reality of the entire Marvel multiverse:

https://imgur.com/5PgnVSt

https://imgur.com/UN725FX

https://imgur.com/uSy1N2l

Even if that was collaborative a Phoenix host is by canon more powerful than all Earths gods and protective powers as stated by Gaea:

https://imgur.com/iLi9mJW

So Firehair did the lionshare of the work. So a colossal feat beyond just about any Marvel cosmic i can think of.

Jean Grey is the most powerful of the Phoenix hosts according to the PF so her power scales up beyond even that.

https://imgur.com/9ObpWJm

Jean Grey Phoenix has amputated a future reality off the multiversal tree with a thought:

https://imgur.com/FLicZ7h

Materialised the 616 universe in her palm atom by atom displaying total control of all the matter and energy of the universe of which the Abstracts, gods and heroes are just facets of:

https://imgur.com/QUItnRZ

Phoenix also re-energised the containment field that withheld the multiversal power of the M'kraan crystal:

https://imgur.com/2Y4GUvX

Phoenix created a multiversal nexus across all reality by projecting and duplicating a lighthouse across every dimension:

https://imgur.com/JNpRWMX

Multiversal feat upon mutiversal feat.

Plus the Phoenix Force by canon is the power from which all reality derives from:

https://imgur.com/61vYLER

https://imgur.com/tfkFlJJ

https://imgur.com/T8qjZQG

a power that dwarfs the likes of the Beyonders in its full form:

https://imgur.com/bRJPeiB

Phoenix stomps. Galactic just ended this debate as far as I'm concerned. Even if Sentry were slightly more powerful, the Phoenix would still win imo as Bob is a nut job and would get mind whammied in seconds.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Standard Molecule Man is nowhere near as powerful as the PF. Molecule Man was a match for a larval stage, not fully powered Beyonder back in the past.

https://imgur.com/Cn87Vsv

The Beyonder states that the machinations of all the Beyonders are powered by the energies of the Phoenixes White Hot Room, a place of danger even for beings such as the Beyonders:

https://imgur.com/tFNOYzm

https://imgur.com/x1Eb3MO

https://imgur.com/q21wVoA

https://imgur.com/2TDINyU

https://imgur.com/Ev0OVKI


The fully evolved Beyonder admits that his power is miniscule compared to the full Phoenix Forces.

https://imgur.com/bRJPeiB



Stop making assertions on matters you are not clued up on. Be humble.

Heres one panel describing the the Phoenix Force as both the Phoenix and the Phoenix Force demonstrating "Phoenix" and "Phoenix Force" are used interchangeably in referencing the cosmic entity:

https://imgur.com/AGF50IX

The Phoenix Force calling itself Phoenix and its host Rachel calling the Force "The Phoenix"

https://imgur.com/ffoFtjQ

The Phoenix Force referred to as "The Phoenix"

https://imgur.com/0Ejk9gE

As i stated in my previous post, the cosmic entity by canon is called the Phoenix and the Phoenix Force. Its hosts are often called the Phoenix as well.

I have proven this conclusively. Your misunderstanding.




No need to tell me what we go by on this forum. I predate you.

Alien ships and Thor hurting the Phoenix mean nothing when it is ultimately mutable and entirely indestructible.

https://imgur.com/4E5ewZA

https://imgur.com/YCaT5vm

It can be divided, absorbed, metabolized and still be entirely fine. Energy cant be destroyed, only transferred and the Phoenix Forces substance is the building blocks of reality.

Your problem is, youre not getting what it is. In Marvel, everything is Phoenix Force. Every form of matter and energy within the closed system of Marvels realities is made up of Phoenix Force.

It is the sum and substance of all life.

https://imgur.com/ega038c

https://imgur.com/WLU6NXP

all reality derives from it

https://imgur.com/61vYLER

https://imgur.com/tfkFlJJ

https://imgur.com/T8qjZQG

the energies of creation and Big Bang are one and the same as the Phoenix Force

https://imgur.com/Y2HIxOA

Its constantly being devoured, used and abused and it wouldnt have it any other way as that is the nature of life that it sustains and perpetuates.

Furthermore, the firebird isnt the sum total of the Phoenix. It is just an avatar:

"The Phoenix avatar"

https://imgur.com/JNpRWMX

Rachel is said to be possessed by "this enigmatic avatar"

https://imgur.com/gBcmxPn

So the firebird itself isnt the full Phoenix. It is just a representation.

The Phoenix simultaneously makes up all reality, whilst its consciousness and core being resides in the White Hot Room. It manifests its consciousness within reality as the Firebird of which there can be many operating in reality at once.

Disrupting or shattering an avatar means not a thing.

Sentry is ultimately just a piece of Phoenix Force just like all of your Marvel faves. The Phoenix can freely give and take its essence giving and taking life at will.

Cyclops

https://imgur.com/5oTfFca

https://imgur.com/qCHVzh0

https://imgur.com/AEMmfdo

https://imgur.com/oWustVp

https://imgur.com/unhpBIX

https://imgur.com/pvoPvc8

https://imgur.com/8QFP0N0

Captain Marvel

https://imgur.com/K223vSn

https://imgur.com/HPR5K9V

https://imgur.com/x6JjUkf

https://imgur.com/waPWP7Y

https://imgur.com/Cu9qHKD

https://imgur.com/0Hsrj98

https://imgur.com/1bJY8F6


If the Phoenix Force withdrew its essence from reality, there would be a void without the smallest potential for life.

https://imgur.com/eHEpD42

The Phoenix Force isnt even reliant on life force manipulation. It can just write him out of the timeline or disintegrate him so not an atom of his being remains for him to regenerate from which he requires.

Sentry exists thanks to the Phoenix. There are levels. Pit him against the Hulk or Silver Surfer. Dont downgrade the Phoenix out of ignorance.
WB GS! Beyonder admitting he'd lose to the PF is huge.

Nice to see Galactic keeps doing his research.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No wonder you dont rate her if thats the only kind of feat youre aware of

A Phoenix host temporarily held back the power of the 1st Firmament

https://imgur.com/9kPAiLU

https://imgur.com/EoBeDCE

https://imgur.com/tuViP8M

https://imgur.com/C5jzdUF

616s 1st Phoenix host Firehair then joined forces with Starbrand to rewrite the reality of the entire Marvel multiverse:

https://imgur.com/5PgnVSt

https://imgur.com/UN725FX

https://imgur.com/uSy1N2l

Even if that was collaborative a Phoenix host is by canon more powerful than all Earths gods and protective powers as stated by Gaea:

https://imgur.com/iLi9mJW

So Firehair did the lionshare of the work. So a colossal feat beyond just about any Marvel cosmic i can think of.

Jean Grey is the most powerful of the Phoenix hosts according to the PF so her power scales up beyond even that.

https://imgur.com/9ObpWJm

Jean Grey Phoenix has amputated a future reality off the multiversal tree with a thought:

https://imgur.com/FLicZ7h

Materialised the 616 universe in her palm atom by atom displaying total control of all the matter and energy of the universe of which the Abstracts, gods and heroes are just facets of:

https://imgur.com/QUItnRZ

Phoenix also re-energised the containment field that withheld the multiversal power of the M'kraan crystal:

https://imgur.com/2Y4GUvX

Phoenix created a multiversal nexus across all reality by projecting and duplicating a lighthouse across every dimension:

https://imgur.com/JNpRWMX

Multiversal feat upon mutiversal feat.

Plus the Phoenix Force by canon is the power from which all reality derives from:

https://imgur.com/61vYLER

https://imgur.com/tfkFlJJ

https://imgur.com/T8qjZQG

a power that dwarfs the likes of the Beyonders in its full form:

https://imgur.com/bRJPeiB

Some of those you are exaggerating or making false claims due to what actually happened.

Most of them are not beneficial when it comes to fighting a battle.

And none of them show ability to permenantly kill a being who can come back from total disintegration, overpower MM, and come back from being erased from existence. The latter ends the debate.

Originally posted by zopzop
WB GS! Beyonder admitting he'd lose to the PF is huge.

Massive. Its what ive been saying on this forum for 18yrs (damn i feel old)

So its good to see it officially confirmed.

People underrate the Phoenix because they dont understand what it is and the implications of its nature.

All our Marvel faves are made up of Phoenix Force. Its substance is the building blocks of reality, meaning that all that derive from Marvels multiverse are ultimately derivative of the Phoenix.



Marvels realities are closed systems, meaning that the Big Bang is the be, all and end all of all energy within Marvel. All energy types, all beings are Big Bang derivatives:

https://imgur.com/4I0q5vy

https://imgur.com/AkDChMD


This is why the Phoenix Force prefers to operate through hosts. Because when it manifests its consciousness as the firebird within this closed system, it becomes a life form itself with energy needs so its reabsorbing its ambient energies that are essential for the development of new life and the sustainment of existing life. So whilst said energy would eventually get redistributed back into the system via the process of energy transferral, it would've been taken out of the system in vast quantities for a time, having a huge impact on life's development. So instead the Phoenix prefers to only manifest as the Firebird when essential, whilst generally staying formless at a universal level and allowing pre-existing life forms within the the closed system to access its energies as hosts in order to carry out its agenda.

So whilst many beings have destroyed and created universes, they are dependant on the Phoenix Force to do so. Not only do their powers and being derive from the Phoenix, but the universal matter they're manipulating is Phoenix Force. They're creating nothing new, just manipulating what's Phoenix derived in the 1st place.

Plus there's the misconception regarding the firebird being the entirety of the Phoenix Force when its just an avatar. If the entirety of the Phoenix Force was summed up in that firebird then there'd be a void elsewhere. No other characters, no matter and energy anywhere, except for that which isnt derived from the multiverse. So even in Avengers vs X-men, the entirety of the manifested Phoenix avatar was what was shared amongst the Phoenix Five. Not the literal entirety of the Force.


When you know its nature, you truly realise how top tier it is and why certain perceived low showings dont really diminish its overall status. Its good to see this confirmed officially on panel in the past 2 years by various titles.

Sentry disintegrates her. Sends her to the white room and thus constituting a forum win.

Hopefully no one is debating with H1. This is the same guy that said Superman is 100s of times more powerful than Sentry.

Originally posted by carver9
Hopefully no one is debating with H1. This is the same guy that said Superman is 100s of times more powerful than Sentry. In terms of physical strength he's more than even that (according to feats of course).

You have
1. moon level
2. Then planetary level
3. Then star level (=> 5 orders of magnitude above 2)
4. Then multistar level

Sentry (at best) is 2. And Superman is 4.
By feats, Superman is at least several orders of magnitude above Sentry in strength.

Originally posted by carver9
Hopefully no one is debating with H1. This is the same guy that said Superman is 100s of times more powerful than Sentry. Do you agree that Sentry at his best (MM level version) can disintegrate Phoenix host due to him overpowering MM using same tactic?

Originally posted by h1a8
In terms of physical strength he's more than even that (according to feats of course).

You have
1. moon level
2. Then planetary level
3. Then star level (=> 5 orders of magnitude above 2)
4. Then multistar level

Sentry (at best) is 2. And Superman is 4.
By feats, Superman is at least several orders of magnitude above Sentry in strength.

There are showings going against everything youve said here.

Originally posted by h1a8
Do you agree that Sentry at his best (MM level version) can disintegrate Phoenix host due to him overpowering MM using same tactic?

Phoenix outright stomps Sentry.

For all we know Sentry and his powers could be aspects of the PF considering his relationship with the White Hot Room.

Originally posted by h1a8
Some of those you are exaggerating or making false claims due to what actually happened.

Most of them are not beneficial when it comes to fighting a battle.


This is some limp, intentionally vague, non-committal reply which makes it clear you know what the rest of us know....youre beat.

All of the feats mentioned demonstrate massive energy manipulation feats which are entirely relevant to battle.

Being able to casually telekinetically amputate an entire reality with zero discernible effort isnt relevant to potential battle prowess?

Having total telekinetic control of all of the matter and energy within a reality in the palm of your hand isnt relevant to battle?

Being able to rewrite the reality of the entire Marvel multiverse isnt a transferrable skill that can be applied to battle?


Originally posted by h1a8
And none of them show ability to permanently kill a being who can come back from total disintegration, overpower MM, and come back from being erased from existence. The latter ends the debate.

Only for the short-sighted or those without insight. All that lives does so because of the Phoenix. Its just not computing for you as youre lowering it to herald level fisticuffs and not appreciating the implications of its nature and how everything including your beloved Sentry are connected to it.

It is pure life on a multiversal scale. If you are derivative of the Marvel multiverse, you can only live because of the Phoenix Force. Its substance and essence is what makes you alive. No Phoenix Force = non-existence

It is not a being wielding life force energies that Sentry can fight for control of life. IT IS realities life. Its substance facilitates your faves. There is no greater determinant of life other than TOAA.


Sentry reforming is because destruction of his body doesnt kill him. As long as theres an atom of his body remaining, he is alive and can reform. So Sentry is just using his molecular manipulation to regenerate whilst having ZERO canon abilities regarding life force manipulation. Thats the crux of the matter. If the Phoenix Force reclaimed whats hers, his life essence, theres no coming back from that. He has no abilities related to life force, just matter manipulation. Phoenix is life. Sentry is a dependant life form.


However even if you fanatically didnt want to accept that the life force of Marvel couldnt reclaim the essence of life from a life form it facilitates, then theres the simple fact that Sentry was trapped in the sun after Thor dumped his body there after Siege. It was only through the intervention of the Apocalypse Twins that he was able to escape and reform. Thereby displaying the limits of his durability and regeneration abilities. He could be atomized and left to perpetually grow and regrow in a star helpless:


https://imgur.com/7fAGy6o

Or he could be atomized on a sub atomic level which is beyond his demonstrated ability to remain alive and regenerate from. Disagree? Prove it.


One thing to note is how Sentry acknowledges in the above scan, his dependence on the Phoenixes White Hot Room. He is just a speck whose life and afterlife are entirely dependent on and determined by the Phoenix. Once again....levels

Originally posted by h1a8
Do you agree that Sentry at his best (MM level version) can disintegrate Phoenix host due to him overpowering MM using same tactic?

Molecule Mans power levels over history have been erratic with many peaks and troughs in correlation with his mental state.

The Molecule Man Sentry faced displayed matter manipulation feats on par with the Eternal Sersi. Nothing grandiose or high level.

This Molecule Man also came at a time when Brian Michael Bendis tried to decouple Molecule Man and Beyonder from their cosmic cubes/Beyonders related origins by making Beyonder just an Inhuman. It was also Bendis who wrote this Dark Avengers story.

So theres not much you can read into regarding this showing.

Regardless, Sentry has zero molecular manipulation feats on the level of Jean Phoenix. She would absolutely eat him up:

https://imgur.com/k1hWCWm

https://imgur.com/uAnI3Bo

https://imgur.com/GO5xVV4

https://imgur.com/kJ5xz38

https://imgur.com/FLicZ7h

https://imgur.com/B3rPbU6

https://imgur.com/QUItnRZ

https://imgur.com/MduUmvv

She could atomize him beyond his ability to regenerate from, warp reality and write him out of the timeline, telepathically make him commit suicide or absorb his life force. No life force means no driving consciousness to utilize matter manipulation abilities to regenerate. He'd just be dead and Phoenix might allow him entry into the White Hot Room.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Molecule Mans power levels over history have been erratic with many peaks and troughs in correlation with his mental state.

The Molecule Man Sentry faced displayed matter manipulation feats on par with the Eternal Sersi. Nothing grandiose or high level.

This Molecule Man also came at a time when Brian Michael Bendis tried to decouple Molecule Man and Beyonder from their cosmic cubes/Beyonders related origins by making Beyonder just an Inhuman. It was also Bendis who wrote this Dark Avengers story.

So theres not much you can read into regarding this showing.

Regardless, Sentry has zero molecular manipulation feats on the level of Jean Phoenix. She would absolutely eat him up:

https://imgur.com/k1hWCWm

https://imgur.com/uAnI3Bo

https://imgur.com/GO5xVV4

https://imgur.com/kJ5xz38

https://imgur.com/FLicZ7h

https://imgur.com/B3rPbU6

https://imgur.com/QUItnRZ

https://imgur.com/MduUmvv

She could atomize him beyond his ability to regenerate from, warp reality and write him out of the timeline, telepathically make him commit suicide or absorb his life force. No life force means no driving consciousness to utilize matter manipulation abilities to regenerate. He'd just be dead and Phoenix might allow him entry into the White Hot Room.

The fact that MM CASUALLY atomized Sentry (a being more powerful than Thor) proves his power. No one is doing that. Good look thinking Jean can atomize high Herald or even trans level Beings. Sentry overpowered MM at his own game. This is far beyond any matter manipulation feat by Phoenix.

You are ignoring the fact that Bob came back AFTER BEING ERASED FROM EXISTENCE. He never existed and still came back. There is nothing beyond that.

Originally posted by carver9
Phoenix outright stomps Sentry. How would she stop him from disintegrating her? He overpowered MM. MM casually disintegrated Sentry (who is more powerful than Thor).
How would she even harm him enough to the point where he can't heal or come back? He came back from being erased from existence. Nothing is topping that.

Originally posted by h1a8
The fact that MM CASUALLY atomized Sentry (a being more powerful than Thor) proves his power. No one is doing that. Good look thinking Jean can atomize high Herald or even trans level Beings. Sentry overpowered MM at his own game. This is far beyond any matter manipulation feat by Phoenix.

Sentrys durability limits are exceeded by the power of the Sun. Youre overrating Molecule Mans feat and Sentrys durability. Calm down

https://imgur.com/7fAGy6o

Ive detailed why Sentrys feat of overpowering MM whilst nice isnt the out of this world feat that you would assert.

Brian Michael Bendis disassociated the Beyonder/MM from their cosmic cube origins and wrote them as metahumans. Beyonder was at the time retconned into an inhuman. Molecule Mans demonstrated power level within that Dark Avengers story arc that Brian Michael Bendis also wrote was herald level at best.

Beyond any matter manipulation feat performed by Phoenix? Jean manipulated the matter of the entirety of 616 and amputated futures off the multiversal tree. Dont be absurd

Please share with us all one feat that Molecule Man performed in that era that showed he was operating at a cosmic level of significance?

Then after that, please show us all a matter manipulation feat of Sentrys thats solar system, galactic or universal level?


I'll wait.....



Originally posted by h1a8
You are ignoring the fact that Bob came back AFTER BEING ERASED FROM EXISTENCE. He never existed and still came back. There is nothing beyond that.

Erased from existence when? He has been blasted apart by Morgan Le Fay and Molecule Man. Thats not being erased from existence, thats getting washed lol. He just got blown apart and as stated in the scan i shared above, as long as an atom of his body remains he can regrow himself. Thats entirely different from what youre asserting.

Sentrys durability limits can be exceeded by any being who can generate the equivalent output of a star. Said output is enough to stop him from regenerating as confirmed by Sentry himself. You therefore cannot argue otherwise with any credibility.

Furthermore there is zero evidence that Sentry can regenerate from matter smaller than an atom.

Jean Phoenixes output is enough to manipulate an entire universe at an atomic level and she is said to possess TOTAL control of matter. Sentry by comparison is admittedly a novice with decent output but no skill who could take out a nerfed Molecule Man as his peak matter manipulation feat. Levels

Plus he can only regenerate whilst he is alive to consciously manipulate matter. He has zero life force manipulation abilities, purely matter manipulation. He has no defence against his life force being taken back by Phoenix. No life force equals dead as a donut. No consciousness to utilize matter manipulation to regenerate. Dead. Very dead. Do you understand?

All this arguing stems from your various misinterpretations. Its a comprehension issue.

Originally posted by h1a8
How would she stop him from disintegrating her? He overpowered MM. MM casually disintegrated Sentry (who is more powerful than Thor).
How would she even harm him enough to the point where he can't heal or come back? He came back from being erased from existence. Nothing is topping that.

He stopped a nerfed Molecule Man. You have to take that into consideration. Not a Molecule Man at the height of his powers.

The MM of that Dark Avengers era was doing parlour tricks and had no showings beyond herald level. He had been disassociated with the cosmic cube origins by Bendis and was displaying vastly reduced power levels.

Your perception of him doesnt consider this context and is thus FLAWED. INACCURATE. NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE.

Erased from existence is being written out of existence through reality or chronal manipulation so that said being never existed in reality. Thats not what happened to Sentry.

https://imgur.com/4MOmxJP

https://imgur.com/qiJwLvn

He got blown up

Erased from existence?

Get a grip

As stated by himself, he remains alive if an atom of himself exists and he can manipulate matter to regenerate. However the output of a star is beyond the limits of his durability.

https://imgur.com/7fAGy6o

He had to be saved.

As it stands, Sentrys powers stem from matter manipulation at the molecular level.

His top feat with this ability is regenerating his body from an atom and overpowering a nerfed Molecule Man who Bendis had retconned to not have any Beyonder or Cosmic Cube connection.

Sentrys durability limits are exceeded by the output of Earths sun.

Sentry has not demonstrated the ability to regenerate from matter less than an atom.

Jean Greys Phoenix output enables her to manipulate the entirety of the 616 universe down to its component atoms. Many, many, many orders of magnitude beyond a single solar systems star.

She could atomize Sentry beyond the atomic level thus beyond his ability to regenerate. blowup

She also has life force manipulation powers, something Sentry has zero defence against. So she could just withdraw his life force and whether Sentry is an atom, a torso or his whole freakin body, he would be dead. No consciousness to utilize his matter manipulation powers to regenerate anything in the 1st place. Dead. No life. Perished. Deceased.

As ive demonstrated in this thread, Phoenix hosts have multiversal scale reality manipulation abilities. Jean could simply alter 616 so that Sentry never had the serum that gave him his powers, or just write him out of existence entirely.


https://imgur.com/hDMQ3VW

https://imgur.com/qqxGcDK

https://imgur.com/uSy1N2l


Or she could be cruel and blow him up and teleport him into a star for him to be stuck perpetually atomized and regenerating like Thor did.


Options. Options. https://imgur.com/uSy1N2l


As i said before, pit Sentry against heralds to mid tier cosmics. He is no match for the top dogs as Knull showed his ass.

The breadth of Owen's powers have always been fully dependent on his mental stability. ie. when he is fully stable, the guy is a universal/multiversal powerhouse... But when he's unstable, the guy can become c-list fodder.

This is important, because when Owen encountered Sentry in Dark Avengers, he was in one of his most mentally unstable states that we have ever seen. He was herald-level... Maybe Skyfather-level, if we feel like giving him the heavy benefit of the doubt.

Either way, that level of power would be inconsequential when compared to the PF... Especially as it has been portrayed by Ewing recently.

Originally posted by Galan007


The breadth of Owen's powers have always been fully dependent on his mental stability. ie. when he is fully stable, the guy is a universal/multiversal powerhouse... But when he's unstable, the guy can become c-list fodder.

This is important, because when Owen encountered Sentry in Dark Avengers, he was in one of his most mentally unstable states that we have ever seen. He was herald-level... Maybe low Skyfather level at best, if we feel like giving him the heavy benefit of the doubt.

Either way, that level of power would be inconsequential when compared to the PF... Especially as it has been portrayed by Ewing recently.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As it stands, Sentrys powers stem from matter manipulation at the molecular level.

His top feat with this ability is regenerating his body from an atom and overpowering a nerfed Molecule Man who Bendis had retconned to not have any Beyonder or Cosmic Cube connection.

Sentrys durability limits are exceeded by the output of Earths sun.

Sentry has not demonstrated the ability to regenerate from matter less than an atom.

Jean Greys Phoenix output enables her to manipulate the entirety of the 616 universe down to its component atoms. Many, many, many orders of magnitude beyond a single solar systems star.

She could atomize Sentry beyond the atomic level thus beyond his ability to regenerate. blowup

She also has life force manipulation powers, something Sentry has zero defence against. So she could just withdraw his life force and whether Sentry is an atom, a torso or his whole freakin body, he would be dead. No consciousness to utilize his matter manipulation powers to regenerate anything in the 1st place. Dead. No life. Perished. Deceased.

As ive demonstrated in this thread, Phoenix hosts have multiversal scale reality manipulation abilities. Jean could simply alter 616 so that Sentry never had the serum that gave him his powers, or just write him out of existence entirely.


https://imgur.com/hDMQ3VW

https://imgur.com/qqxGcDK

https://imgur.com/uSy1N2l


Or she could be cruel and blow him up and teleport him into a star for him to be stuck perpetually atomized and regenerating like Thor did.


Options. Options. https://imgur.com/uSy1N2l


As i said before, pit Sentry against heralds to mid tier cosmics. He is no match for the top dogs as Knull showed his ass.

His top feat is coming back after being erased from existence. That is my 4th time stating that. You keep ignoring it.

I know MM was nerfed. That's why I gave a feat for him (that version) to prove his power level. He casually disintegrated Sentry. That's one hell of a feat. Who has Phoenix disintegrated? We go by feats, not no limit fallacies. Because from all her fights she has yet to do the things to Sentry you said she can.

Sentry is significantly faster than her in battle (when fighting at his best).
He can potentially act before she does.

1. Sentry can disintegrate her. What's her defense against that?
2. Sentry can resist being disintegrated. He resisted being disintegrated by nerfed MM (who had the power to disintegrate Sentry at normal levels earlier). Even if Sentry is damaged then he would simply reform. He even came back from nonexistence. Nothing is topping that.
3. Looking at all her fights, she never disintegrated anyone on the level of high Herald or above. Phoenix host has been killed multiple times. Let's go by her battles. What has she done in battle that
A. Shows she can put someone down that can come back from nonexistence
B. Prevent being disintegrated by a power multiple times more powerful than able to disintegrate Sentry at normal levels.

Everything you say contradicts ALL of her battles. None of her battles corroborate the things relevant to permanently beating Sentry (at his best)

Originally posted by Galan007


The breadth of Owen's powers have always been fully dependent on his mental stability. ie. when he is fully stable, the guy is a universal/multiversal powerhouse... But when he's unstable, the guy can become c-list fodder.

This is important, because when Owen encountered Sentry in Dark Avengers, he was in one of his most mentally unstable states that we have ever seen. He was herald-level... Maybe low Skyfather level at best, if we feel like giving him the heavy benefit of the doubt.

Either way, that level of power would be inconsequential when compared to the PF... Especially as it has been portrayed by Ewing recently.

Lifebringer Galactus was shitting his pants in the presence of unstable Owen.

^ I wouldn't call that version of Owen unstable at all... Certainly not in the same way that he was portrayed in Dark Avengers.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No wonder you dont rate her if thats the only kind of feat youre aware of

A Phoenix host temporarily held back the power of the 1st Firmament

https://imgur.com/9kPAiLU

https://imgur.com/EoBeDCE

https://imgur.com/tuViP8M

https://imgur.com/C5jzdUF

616s 1st Phoenix host Firehair then joined forces with Starbrand to rewrite the reality of the entire Marvel multiverse:

https://imgur.com/5PgnVSt

https://imgur.com/UN725FX

https://imgur.com/uSy1N2l

Even if that was collaborative a Phoenix host is by canon more powerful than all Earths gods and protective powers as stated by Gaea:

https://imgur.com/iLi9mJW

So Firehair did the lionshare of the work. So a colossal feat beyond just about any Marvel cosmic i can think of.

Jean Grey is the most powerful of the Phoenix hosts according to the PF so her power scales up beyond even that.

https://imgur.com/9ObpWJm

Jean Grey Phoenix has amputated a future reality off the multiversal tree with a thought:

https://imgur.com/FLicZ7h

Materialised the 616 universe in her palm atom by atom displaying total control of all the matter and energy of the universe of which the Abstracts, gods and heroes are just facets of:

https://imgur.com/QUItnRZ

Phoenix also re-energised the containment field that withheld the multiversal power of the M'kraan crystal:

https://imgur.com/2Y4GUvX

Phoenix created a multiversal nexus across all reality by projecting and duplicating a lighthouse across every dimension:

https://imgur.com/JNpRWMX

Multiversal feat upon mutiversal feat.

Plus the Phoenix Force by canon is the power from which all reality derives from:

https://imgur.com/61vYLER

https://imgur.com/tfkFlJJ

https://imgur.com/T8qjZQG

a power that dwarfs the likes of the Beyonders in its full form:

https://imgur.com/bRJPeiB


Originally posted by abhilegend
*Phoenix is omnipotent, Phoenix is more powerful than Beyonder*

https://i.postimg.cc/V50LpVpd/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/RNcCVnMm/image.jpg

*Phoenix gets stalemated by a low end Earth god*

Phoenix as always is all hype and nothing else.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ I wouldn't call that version of Owen unstable at all... Certainly not in the same way that he was portrayed in Dark Avengers.

Not in the same way, sure.

But still remained the insane little creep as usual, tbh. Galactus agrees with me

Originally posted by h1a8
His top feat is coming back after being erased from existence. That is my 4th time stating that. You keep ignoring it.

I countered this fallacy multiple times on page 3. Instead of addressing my counter youre making out as if ive ignored your nonsense:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm


Erased from existence is being written out of existence through reality or chronal manipulation so that said being never existed in reality. Thats not what happened to Sentry.

https://imgur.com/4MOmxJP

https://imgur.com/qiJwLvn

He got blown up

Erased from existence?

Get a grip

As stated by himself, he remains alive if an atom of himself exists and he can manipulate matter to regenerate. However the output of a star is beyond the limits of his durability.

https://imgur.com/7fAGy6o

He had to be saved.

If you are unable to counter what ive said, then maybe its time to accept i'm right

Originally posted by h1a8
I know MM was nerfed. That's why I gave a feat for him (that version) to prove his power level. He casually disintegrated Sentry. That's one hell of a feat.

Does this sound like you knew he was nerfed?

Originally posted by h1a8
Bob overpowered MM which is more powerful than the Phoenix.

Bullshit

You were ignorant of that point and backtracked after I highlighted it and Galan came in and corroborated what I said. Have some integrity.

Him disintegrating Sentry is not one hell of a feat when Sentry has stated himself that the power of the Sun is enough to disintegrate him and overcome the limits of his regeneration ability:

https://imgur.com/7fAGy6o

If his atom of matter was not retrieved from the Sun by the Apocalypse Twins then he would've been trapped by his own admission.

The entire universes stars are made up of Phoenix Force. It took just one of them to make Sentry a non-factor.


Originally posted by h1a8
Who has Phoenix disintegrated? We go by feats, not no limit fallacies. Because from all her fights she has yet to do the things to Sentry you said she can.

Do you even comprehend what a no limit fallacy is? Lol. No demonstration of a utilisation of that anywhere in my posts.

At the end of the day, if someone can warp reality on a multiversal scale, manipulate time, generate unlimited amounts of any energy type, telekinetically amputate entire realities from the multiverse and telekinetically control the entirety of the universes energy and matter in the palm of her hand, it is absurd to argue that they are not capable of utilizing said abilities in battle.

To disintegrate is to break down into smaller component parts.

Jean as Phoenix by canon possesses "telekinetic godhood"

https://imgur.com/uAnI3Bo

https://imgur.com/k1hWCWm

https://imgur.com/MduUmvv

total telekinetic control of matter and you would argue she cant disintegrate Sentry with that power level when he has been blown to bits by Morgan Le Fay and a nerfed Molecule Man operating at herald level?

https://imgur.com/4MOmxJP

https://imgur.com/qiJwLvn


You would argue that when as stated by Sentry himself his power to regenerate can be overcome by a single stars output?

TF outta here

Know when you are beaten.

Originally posted by h1a8
Sentry is significantly faster than her in battle (when fighting at his best).
He can potentially act before she does.


Faster than Jean Grey yes. Not faster than Jean Grey Phoenix. At least not according to Marvel:

https://imgur.com/Sanx800

https://imgur.com/MduUmvv

Jean as Phoenix is by canon stated to be able to generate any energy, any power. The Phoenix Force is the substance of all that is. All powers are ultimately derivative from and facilitated by the Force.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Sentry can disintegrate her. What's her defense against that?
2. Sentry can resist being disintegrated. He resisted being disintegrated by nerfed MM (who had the power to disintegrate Sentry at normal levels earlier). Even if Sentry is damaged then he would simply reform. He even came back from nonexistence. Nothing is topping that.
3. Looking at all her fights, she never disintegrated anyone on the level of high Herald or above. Phoenix host has been killed multiple times. Let's go by her battles. What has she done in battle that
A. Shows she can put someone down that can come back from nonexistence
B. Prevent being disintegrated by a power multiple times more powerful than able to disintegrate Sentry at normal levels.

Everything you say contradicts ALL of her battles. None of her battles corroborate the things relevant to permanently beating Sentry (at his best)

1 and 2) Sentrys molecular manipulation output is herald level at best from whats been demonstrated on panel. He was able to be disintegrated by a severely nerfed Molecule Man. He was later able to regenerate himself but it has been established the energy output of a single star is beyond the capacity of Sentrys molecular manipulation to overcome. Great capacity if we're talking Marvel Earth, but in terms of the wider universe thats weak sauce. Sentry doesnt have the energy output to overcome or resist Jean Grey Phoenix who has demonstrated molecular manipulation on an exponentially greater scale.


3)Shes a hero. Believe it or not theyre not in the business of disintegrating their foes. So redundant line of argument. Comparative battle prowess is not decided by battle feats alone, but also by feats accomplished through application of a characters abilities in other scenarios. Its illogical and absurd to assert otherwise. The power to reshape the universe doesnt suddenly become inoperative in a battle situation. This is a hypothetical forum fight (free of the influence of marketing and profit related agendas which can affect how characters are written in comics) We look at a characters demonstrated abilities and pit them against each other. PIS and CIS are non factors here and thus will not prop up your featherweight argument.

A - stop referring to Sentry getting erased from existence He just got blown up
B - This was written terribly and i dont know what on earth youre saying

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Lifebringer Galactus was shitting his pants in the presence of unstable Owen.

To be fair that was an Owen that was still amped by the energies of The Beyonder race.

That meeting between Galactus and MM happened in Ultimates issue 6 released in April 2016.

Over 2 years after that in Fantastic Four (Vol. 6) #2
(September, 2018) Molecule Man was using the remnants of that power to finish rebuilding the multiverse (following Secret Wars) with Franklin Richards.

So Galactus feared an amped Molecule Man. Not standard.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ I wouldn't call that version of Owen unstable at all... Certainly not in the same way that he was portrayed in Dark Avengers.

Why wasn't he unstable? The guy was insane.

Originally posted by carver9
Why wasn't he unstable? The guy was insane.

Galan was probably trying to say his favorite boy-toy wasn't acting like an insecure pussy anymore. He stopped creating imaginary friends to play with, too. Acted confident and was able to assert his dominance over Galactus.

He still clearly was a wacko though, therefore unstable.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I countered this fallacy multiple times on page 3. Instead of addressing my counter youre making out as if ive ignored your nonsense:



If you are unable to counter what ive said, then maybe its time to accept i'm right



Does this sound like you knew he was nerfed?



Bullshit

You were ignorant of that point and backtracked after I highlighted it and Galan came in and corroborated what I said. Have some integrity.

Him disintegrating Sentry is not one hell of a feat when Sentry has stated himself that the power of the Sun is enough to disintegrate him and overcome the limits of his regeneration ability:

https://imgur.com/7fAGy6o

If his atom of matter was not retrieved from the Sun by the Apocalypse Twins then he would've been trapped by his own admission.

The entire universes stars are made up of Phoenix Force. It took just one of them to make Sentry a non-factor.




Do you even comprehend what a no limit fallacy is? Lol. No demonstration of a utilisation of that anywhere in my posts.

At the end of the day, if someone can warp reality on a multiversal scale, manipulate time, generate unlimited amounts of any energy type, telekinetically amputate entire realities from the multiverse and telekinetically control the entirety of the universes energy and matter in the palm of her hand, it is absurd to argue that they are not capable of utilizing said abilities in battle.

To disintegrate is to break down into smaller component parts.

Jean as Phoenix by canon possesses "telekinetic godhood"

https://imgur.com/uAnI3Bo

https://imgur.com/k1hWCWm

https://imgur.com/MduUmvv

total telekinetic control of matter and you would argue she cant disintegrate Sentry with that power level when he has been blown to bits by Morgan Le Fay and a nerfed Molecule Man operating at herald level?

https://imgur.com/4MOmxJP

https://imgur.com/qiJwLvn


You would argue that when as stated by Sentry himself his power to regenerate can be overcome by a single stars output?

TF outta here

Know when you are beaten.



Faster than Jean Grey yes. Not faster than Jean Grey Phoenix. At least not according to Marvel:

https://imgur.com/Sanx800

https://imgur.com/MduUmvv

Jean as Phoenix is by canon stated to be able to generate any energy, any power. The Phoenix Force is the substance of all that is. All powers are ultimately derivative from and facilitated by the Force.



1 and 2) Sentrys molecular manipulation output is herald level at best from whats been demonstrated on panel. He was able to be disintegrated by a severely nerfed Molecule Man. He was later able to regenerate himself but it has been established the energy output of a single star is beyond the capacity of Sentrys molecular manipulation to overcome. Great capacity if we're talking Marvel Earth, but in terms of the wider universe thats weak sauce. Sentry doesnt have the energy output to overcome or resist Jean Grey Phoenix who has demonstrated molecular manipulation on an exponentially greater scale.


3)Shes a hero. Believe it or not theyre not in the business of disintegrating their foes. So redundant line of argument. Comparative battle prowess is not decided by battle feats alone, but also by feats accomplished through application of a characters abilities in other scenarios. Its illogical and absurd to assert otherwise. The power to reshape the universe doesnt suddenly become inoperative in a battle situation. This is a hypothetical forum fight (free of the influence of marketing and profit related agendas which can affect how characters are written in comics) We look at a characters demonstrated abilities and pit them against each other. PIS and CIS are non factors here and thus will not prop up your featherweight argument.

A - stop referring to Sentry getting erased from existence He just got blown up
B - This was written terribly and i dont know what on earth youre saying

1. Lol no. So you are a scammer? The comic shows Sentry being erased from existence (not being blown up). Your scans (being blown up) are not from the same comic. And MM wasn't even there when Sentry got erased. The actual comic has Sentry disappearing in a bright flash. Doesn't matter as it was explained in the series that Morgan LeFay erased Sentry from the Timeline as if he never existed. Who are you trying to trick with this deception?

2. In comics we always have inconsistencies. For example, Phoenix has some extremely laughable low showings. You shouldn't cherry pick a character's low showings and pit them against another character's high showings. This is a form of trolling.
I can make Thing able to beat Superman under such tactics.
Anyway, MM didn't use heat and pressure (over A LONG PERIOD OF TIME)
, he used force to separate Sentry's atoms. Sentry can survive many many blows from WWH (which makes him tougher than Hercules and Thor). So to be able to atomized someone (casually) that durable is a great feat.

3. You have to show what Phoenix can do in battle to beat Sentry. Explain how she would win (use a feat she did against someone to prove your case). In Character plays a role here too. Like I said. Sentry came back from total disintegration and also being erased (never existed) . All that other stuff you are spouting is not proof to anything.

4. We use comic feats to prove capability, not handbooks. Sentry is significantly faster than her in battle speed By FEATS (perceptions, reactions, acceleration, etc). He would be the first to act.

5. If nerfed character has feats to prove a case then the fact that he's nerfed is irrelevant.

6. You have to prove (by feats) that she and will (prove propensity) can disintegrate someone as durable as Sentry. You have to prove (by feats) that she can and will (prove propensity) erase him. You have to prove (by feats) she can keep him erased.
You have to prove that Sentry can't disintegrate her (because he acts first).

7. The writer had 0 intention of MM being amped when facing Galactus. You are making stuff up.

Originally posted by Galan007
This is important, because when Owen encountered Sentry in Dark Avengers, he was in one of his most mentally unstable states that we have ever seen. He was herald-level... Maybe Skyfather-level, if we feel like giving him the heavy benefit of the doubt.

You have to be out of your mind to believe even for a single second that a high herald can do the Sentry what Molecule Man did in Dark Avengers.
No matter how much you want to lowball Molecule Man from that arc, his lowest power level at that point was still magnitudes of levels above that of a high herald. As is the Sentry.

And even from the editors and writers have always placed Sentry on so much higher tiers than certain readers give him credit for. For example in King of Black, when Knull invades with three venomized celestials. The Avengers call in the Sentry and know that all will be good now that their big gun is here. Sentry goes on to kill one of the Celestials, attacks Knull and gets worfed into character limbo. So from a writers and editors perspective in lore-universe Sentry would have been able to deal with 3 Celestials in the eyes of the Avengers. Knull at that point was an unknown threat.

I've always argued that Sentry should be ranked below Skyfathers, but that he is such a wild dog of a character that him killing Skyfathers and Abstracts would absolutely never surprise me. Like when you have a base Gladiator killing a Skyfather or an Abstract, you would ask yourself if that's really correct and who messed that up over at Marvel. When Sentry does it, you shrug with your shoulders and move on, because it's the Sentry and the Sentry occasionally does Sentry stuff.

what kind of resistence feats to molecular transmutation did sentry even have at the time though? i remember him reconstructing after morgaine "killed" him, but that was a magic based attack.

only asking because that was the same mm who had some kind of trouble transmuting daken because of his healing factor

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
what kind of resistence feats to molecular transmutation did sentry even have at the time though? i remember him reconstructing after morgaine "killed" him, but that was a magic based attack.

only asking because that was the same mm who had some kind of trouble transmuting daken because of his healing factor He resisted MM's 2nd attempt to atomize him. Which is one hell of a feat considering that MM had the power to casually atomize someone of Sentry's durability. Since it was casual, then it stands to reason that MM could have atomized someone several times more durable than Sentry. Sentry overpowered that force.

Originally posted by h1a8
He resisted MM's 2nd attempt to atomize him. Which is one hell of a feat considering that MM had the power to casually atomize someone of Sentry's durability. Since it was casual, then it stands to reason that MM could have atomized someone several times more durable than Sentry. Sentry overpowered that force. mm atomized sentry 3 different times. sentry just got better at reassembling himself after each time.

but i asked what kind of resistence feats to molecular transmutation that sentry had before the mm incidents, because if he had none then i dont see why we should think mm was much above the herald tier there? especially when the same mm had some degree of trouble transmuting daken because of his healing factor- and daken is just what, like meta tier?

Originally posted by Enzeru
You have to be out of your mind to believe even for a single second that a high herald can do the Sentry what Molecule Man did in Dark Avengers.
No matter how much you want to lowball Molecule Man from that arc, his lowest power level at that point was still magnitudes of levels above that of a high herald. As is the Sentry.

And even from the editors and writers have always placed Sentry on so much higher tiers than certain readers give him credit for. For example in King of Black, when Knull invades with three venomized celestials. The Avengers call in the Sentry and know that all will be good now that their big gun is here. Sentry goes on to kill one of the Celestials, attacks Knull and gets worfed into character limbo. So from a writers and editors perspective in lore-universe Sentry would have been able to deal with 3 Celestials in the eyes of the Avengers. Knull at that point was an unknown threat.

I've always argued that Sentry should be ranked below Skyfathers, but that he is such a wild dog of a character that him killing Skyfathers and Abstracts would absolutely never surprise me. Like when you have a base Gladiator killing a Skyfather or an Abstract, you would ask yourself if that's really correct and who messed that up over at Marvel. When Sentry does it, you shrug with your shoulders and move on, because it's the Sentry and the Sentry occasionally does Sentry stuff.
Lol, a weakened Silver Surfer defeated Knull with necrosword. Thor broke his jaw and Captain Universe outright evaporated Knull in the sun.

Sentry got ripped in half by the same Knull. Skyfather? Lol, LMAO even.

I like how the same writer can hype sentry by getting him to kill celestials and then worf him. Classic sentry fan moment lol

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Lol no. So you are a scammer? The comic shows Sentry being erased from existence (not being blown up). Your scans (being blown up) are not from the same comic. And MM wasn't even there when Sentry got erased. The actual comic has Sentry disappearing in a bright flash. Doesn't matter as it was explained in the series that Morgan LeFay erased Sentry from the Timeline as if he never existed. Who are you trying to trick with this deception?

Im a scammer? Bro, stop talking fart. Youre clearly asserting this madness from memory and yet having the audacity to not only state that im wrong, but that im somehow lying?

It was NEVER stated in Dark Avengers that Morgan Le Fay erased Sentry from the timeline. STOP arrogantly debating events from memory. The comic is 14yrs old. Go back and read the relevant scenes so as to not look the fool:

https://imgur.com/DE0shZP

Sentry is depicted buckling over in pain, before the subsequent panel shows energy building up inside him, followed by a big explosion that has the other characters reeling from the force.

His ass got blown up blowup



Please show us where in the Dark Avengers title it states he got written out of the timeline? Please show us all the scan?

If you get written out of existence it doesnt happen with an explosion and on top of that other characters will not remember you ever existed unless said other characters have or are granted a special ability that renders them resistant to the effects of chronal/reality manipulation.

THIS is getting written out of existence:

https://imgur.com/hDMQ3VW

https://imgur.com/qqxGcDK


Either way, the comic itself referred to readers what actually happened to Sentry and it conclusively said his ass got brutally killed by Morgan Le Fay:

https://imgur.com/RFA6Icl

This point of the debate has concluded. I have proven conclusively you were wrong in trying to amp up and add some refinement to what was simply dismemberment. discorporation. disintegration.

Sentry has the ability to regenerate under certain conditions, as long as an atom of his body remains behind and said atom is not hampered (such as when Thor dumped his body in the sun preventing said atom from developing further)

https://imgur.com/7fAGy6o

Sentry has previously said he doesnt even know how he regenerates exactly:

https://imgur.com/VIX8oRW

https://imgur.com/ayOwczq

https://imgur.com/gd9lbOS

When Knull ripped him into chunks however, Sentry's body did not regenerate which highlights how this regeneration isnt a given and CANNOT be presented as such:

https://imgur.com/fBmL43M

https://imgur.com/pYEYyeU

https://imgur.com/IcJrw7i

These scans highlight that Sentry's regeneration is not automatic, it is not unconditional and it is not guaranteed. There are clearly limits to it and he cannot do it at will. Here Sentry laments not being able to help his friends even though he wants to, thus highlighting that passing on to the afterlife is not his choice and that he couldnt regenerate even though he clearly wants to.

So to sum all of that up, if the Sentry doesnt know how he regenerates, his regeneration isnt a given and has limits then you cannot present it as a guaranteed outcome upon the destruction of his body. That is now conclusive

Revaluate your argument. This particular line of thinking is a dead-end.

Originally posted by h1a8
2. In comics we always have inconsistencies. For example, Phoenix has some extremely laughable low showings. You shouldn't cherry pick a character's low showings and pit them against another character's high showings. This is a form of trolling. I can make Thing able to beat Superman under such tactics.

Have you even read the forums rules or are you a go with the flow trial and error kinda guy? Well right now youre giving nothing but error so that answers my question.




Originally posted by h1a8
Anyway, MM didn't use heat and pressure (over A LONG PERIOD OF TIME)
, he used force to separate Sentry's atoms. Sentry can survive many many blows from WWH (which makes him tougher than Hercules and Thor). So to be able to atomized someone (casually) that durable is a great feat.

Lets look at the forums rulings on Sentry:



Wanna talk about rules eh? Your only feat of note is ruled out LOL

Originally posted by h1a8
3. You have to show what Phoenix can do in battle to beat Sentry. Explain how she would win (use a feat she did against someone to prove your case). In Character plays a role here too. Like I said. Sentry came back from total disintegration and also being erased (never existed) . All that other stuff you are spouting is not proof to anything.

There is no forum rule that exists that states that in a versus debate you're only allowed to mention powers that a character has used in a battle scenario.

That is fabrication. You are concocting that nonsense to bias the debate in your favour because you know very well youre beat here under normal forum rules.

Lets look at some more of those rules shall we?



You are allowed to reference any abilities characters have demonstrated, at the full capacity that characters have demonstrated they inherently have (so minus temporary, external boosts for example). Said demonstration within the comics does not have to have taken place within a battle scenario. That is ABSURD.

If you cannot make any head way in a debate without moving the goalposts and setting parameters (contrary to forum rules) that bias a debates outcome in your favour then you are an incompetent debater.

Originally posted by h1a8
4. We use comic feats to prove capability, not handbooks. Sentry is significantly faster than her in battle speed By FEATS (perceptions, reactions, acceleration, etc). He would be the first to act.

Dont give me "we" when you have demonstrated utter ignorance of what is and is not permitted by forum rules. Comic book feats do take precedence, but handbooks still have a place in presenting canon and cannot be overruled unless shown to be contrary to a conclusive and unambiguous incident or happenstance within a comic.

The Phoenix amplifies its hosts abilities to cosmic proportions. It is the source of all the universes energy. No power or ability is beyond its ability to bestow upon its hosts.

Speed? Meh

Jean Phoenix leaving Earth and blazing past Jupiter in minutes

https://imgur.com/AJyILum

https://imgur.com/v92cQvp

https://imgur.com/jbmGBIS

https://imgur.com/oHPFzGH

The distance from Earth to Jupiter on average is 444, million miles.

Using the comic panels reference in the Moira scene of minutes later, lets say the journey took her 5 mins as a conservative estimate, thats 5 billion 328 millions miles per hour. The speed of light is 671 million miles per hr. So nearly 8 times the speed of light or 7.94 times it to be exact.

Jean Phoenix again leaving Earth and within mins reaching a planet outside the solar system. So quite a bit faster even:

https://imgur.com/fYDTHvC

https://imgur.com/fChCsmP

https://imgur.com/VDqRBcp

Heres Thane Phoenix toying with and casually catching up with a spaceship accelerating to the speed of light:

https://imgur.com/fO6NHl6

https://imgur.com/DSi8wcm

Its ridiculous that you would call into question the ability of the source of all life and the facilitator of all powers to bestow abilities beyond a sub skyfather character.

Originally posted by h1a8
5. If nerfed character has feats to prove a case then the fact that he's nerfed is irrelevant.

He doesnt though. Him blowing up Sentry isnt a feat of note when Morgan Le Fay did it a few issues before and how its been demonstrated that the output of the sun is enough to end him and stop him regenerating.


Originally posted by h1a8
6. You have to prove (by feats) that she and will (prove propensity) can disintegrate someone as durable as Sentry. You have to prove (by feats) that she can and will (prove propensity) erase him. You have to prove (by feats) she can keep him erased.
You have to prove that Sentry can't disintegrate her (because he acts first).

You keep talking about his durability when its established that a nerfed MM, Morgan Le Fay (who is no great cosmic power) and the energies of a star are sufficient to exceed the limits of his durability.

Ive proven already that Sentry was not written out of existence. You relied on your unreliable memory for that tale and were absolutely wrong on all accounts lol.

He got recovered from being brutally blown up by Morgan Le Fay and yet as i also proved his regeneration is not a given. Thats canon. It happens under unknown circumstances and he doesnt even know how it happens, its not something he knows how to control, so you cant reference it as an automatic occurence or a standard ability at all going by forum rules. Sorry Mr.

Jean Grey Phoenix can fly and manoeuvre at many, many times the speed of light by canon. Why i bothered to prove that i dont know, but regardless i validated your nonsense.

As for her having the propensity, well this is what annoys me. You are out here all dismissive and full of denials regarding a character you clearly know next to nothing of. The bias ad arrogance is astounding.

Come with better energy. If you dont know about a character be humble and admit that, ask questions and learn.

Jean Grey is known for being a hothead, who can be ruthless in confrontations and has no issue making hard decisions if lives depend on it. With that in mind, incinerating Sentry, or disabling him in some manner to render him a non-threat is well within her character:

Savagely attacking Emma Frost in a psi battle:


https://imgur.com/N15jA0D


Brutalizing Sabretooth for threatening lives:

https://imgur.com/OHIsGsW

https://imgur.com/bqbvi8A

https://imgur.com/KdJNgMz

https://imgur.com/Z9I9inK

Vindictively roughing up Emma Frost for her psychic affair with Cyclops and threatening her with her own twist on a penance stare:

https://imgur.com/4ZpPOSX

https://imgur.com/4uTN8Mo

https://imgur.com/nAeLt7b

https://imgur.com/r6BGSqv

https://imgur.com/P4dArb5

Disintegrating inhabitants of an island that had been morphed into plant hybrids and threatened lives:

https://imgur.com/gA8JwFo

https://imgur.com/Nla16sN

Originally posted by h1a8
7. The writer had 0 intention of MM being amped when facing Galactus. You are making stuff up.

You cant say that. Molecule Man by canon was still amped up by the Beyonder races energies at that time within continuity. It is a fact that he was not operating at standard power levels.

Why youve chosen to refer to my tangential conversation with another forum poster when it has nothing whatsoever to do with the debate im eating you up on i really dont know.

Anyways thatll be all folks.

Come harder.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
mm atomized sentry 3 different times. sentry just got better at reassembling himself after each time.

but i asked what kind of resistence feats to molecular transmutation that sentry had before the mm incidents, because if he had none then i dont see why we should think mm was much above the herald tier there? especially when the same mm had some degree of trouble transmuting daken because of his healing factor- and daken is just what, like meta tier?

Originally posted by h1a8
He resisted MM's 2nd attempt to atomize him. Which is one hell of a feat considering that MM had the power to casually atomize someone of Sentry's durability. Since it was casual, then it stands to reason that MM could have atomized someone several times more durable than Sentry. Sentry overpowered that force.

Sentrys durability whilst impressive by Earth standards, isnt anything to write home about on the cosmic stage.

Morgan Le Fay blew him up. You tried to finesse people by saying she wrote him out of existence thereby making his regeneration seem more impressive.

NO. As i proved he simply got blown up.

Furthermore given his admittance to not knowing how he regenerates and his inability to regenerate from getting ripped apart by Knull, that means his regeneration ability isnt standard, it happens under certain unknown conditions and is therefore something you cannot reference as one of his standard abilities according to forum rules.

WEEP!

Big mistake touting rules this rules that and making me go back and refresh my memory.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im a scammer? Bro, stop talking fart. Youre clearly asserting this madness from memory and yet having the audacity to not only state that im wrong, but that im somehow lying?

It was NEVER stated in Dark Avengers that Morgan Le Fay erased Sentry from the timeline. STOP arrogantly debating events from memory. The comic is 14yrs old. Go back and read the relevant scenes so as to not look the fool:

https://imgur.com/DE0shZP

Sentry is depicted buckling over in pain, before the subsequent panel shows energy building up inside him, followed by a big explosion that has the other characters reeling from the force.

His ass got blown up blowup



Please show us where in the Dark Avengers title it states he got written out of the timeline? Please show us all the scan?

If you get written out of existence it doesnt happen with an explosion and on top of that other characters will not remember you ever existed unless said other characters have or are granted a special ability that renders them resistant to the effects of chronal/reality manipulation.

THIS is getting written out of existence:

https://imgur.com/hDMQ3VW

https://imgur.com/qqxGcDK


Either way, the comic itself referred to readers what actually happened to Sentry and it conclusively said his ass got brutally killed by Morgan Le Fay:

https://imgur.com/RFA6Icl

This point of the debate has concluded. I have proven conclusively you were wrong in trying to amp up and add some refinement to what was simply dismemberment. discorporation. disintegration.

Sentry has the ability to regenerate under certain conditions, as long as an atom of his body remains behind and said atom is not hampered (such as when Thor dumped his body in the sun preventing said atom from developing further)

https://imgur.com/7fAGy6o

Sentry has previously said he doesnt even know how he regenerates exactly:

https://imgur.com/VIX8oRW

https://imgur.com/ayOwczq

https://imgur.com/gd9lbOS

When Knull ripped him into chunks however, Sentry's body did not regenerate which highlights how this regeneration isnt a given and CANNOT be presented as such:

https://imgur.com/fBmL43M

https://imgur.com/pYEYyeU

https://imgur.com/IcJrw7i

These scans highlight that Sentry's regeneration is not automatic, it is not unconditional and it is not guaranteed. There are clearly limits to it and he cannot do it at will. Here Sentry laments not being able to help his friends even though he wants to, thus highlighting that passing on to the afterlife is not his choice and that he couldnt regenerate even though he clearly wants to.

So to sum all of that up, if the Sentry doesnt know how he regenerates, his regeneration isnt a given and has limits then you cannot present it as a guaranteed outcome upon the destruction of his body. That is now conclusive

Revaluate your argument. This particular line of thinking is a dead-end.



Have you even read the forums rules or are you a go with the flow trial and error kinda guy? Well right now youre giving nothing but error so that answers my question.






Lets look at the forums rulings on Sentry:



Wanna talk about rules eh? Your only feat of note is ruled out LOL



There is no forum rule that exists that states that in a versus debate you're only allowed to mention powers that a character has used in a battle scenario.

That is fabrication. You are concocting that nonsense to bias the debate in your favour because you know very well youre beat here under normal forum rules.

Lets look at some more of those rules shall we?



You are allowed to reference any abilities characters have demonstrated, at the full capacity that characters have demonstrated they inherently have (so minus temporary, external boosts for example). Said demonstration within the comics does not have to have taken place within a battle scenario. That is ABSURD.

If you cannot make any head way in a debate without moving the goalposts and setting parameters (contrary to forum rules) that bias a debates outcome in your favour then you are an incompetent debater.

1. Dude I caught you in a lie. You tried to use a different comic scan as if it was from the same comic to show Sentry blew up. Sentry never blew up. He disappeared without any remnants. It was a bright flash and poof he was gone. Yet you posted scans of MM blowing Sentry up as if it was from the same story. You are a scammer and lose credibility due to the troll tactics and deception. Margana explains in the same comic about erasing the avengers from the time line as an explanation of what happened to Bob. You will lose all credibility if you want to argue that she someone blew up Sentry (and not erased him) despite her words and writer's intent.
And it's called artistic expression. A writer/artist can dipict someone being erased in any form they choose. As long as no remnants remain of that being.

2. I'm referring to Sentry at his best, not at his worse. At his best he can reform from disintegration and erasure. Nothing less.

3. So you admit to using a character's lows against another character's highs? Shameful. You ignore your trolling with new arguments to cover it up. Dude you lost all credibility. You are not a respected debater but a clever troll.
I never stated Sentry would win this fight. I stated Sentry at his best (whether you call him void try or void is irrelevant) would win. If you concede to voidtry or whatever version of Sentry beating Phoenix then the debate is over. If you don't then let's continue the debate.

4. How a character fights in battle is everything. It proves propensity and ability. Characters just don't sit there and allow you to do what you want. Phoenix may never get an opportunity to do anything if Sentry acts first. If Phoenix never did a certain tactic in a battle then why would she do so in a forum fight? Propensity dude.

5. Full capacity I agree. But using a character's low showings (in which character has higher ones that contradict) against another character's high showings is trolling and certainly not using full capacity for both.

6. Travel in space speed doesn't equal battle speed. Sentry would view her as a statue. A human can travel at many times faster than light, provided they can spend time to accelerate to that speed. GLs can travel far faster than Phoenix can in space but they would be a statue to a real speedster in battle.

7. Sentry has many durability feats that make him more durable than Hercules and Thor. So separating his atoms is one hell of a feat.

8. Prove that it is canon that MM was amped with beyonders energies when he faced Galactus. Stating it's canon is not proof.

Even having half the conversation semi-hidden, this is like watching dumb arguing against dumber

Haven't made my mind up as to which is the latter.

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Dude I caught you in a lie. You tried to use a different comic scan as if it was from the same comic to show Sentry blew up. Sentry never blew up. He disappeared without any remnants. It was a bright flash and poof he was gone. Yet you posted scans of MM blowing Sentry up as if it was from the same story. You are a scammer and lose credibility due to the troll tactics and deception. Margana explains in the same comic about erasing the avengers from the time line as an explanation of what happened to Bob. You will lose all credibility if you want to argue that she someone blew up Sentry (and not erased him) despite her words and writer's intent.
And it's called artistic expression. A writer/artist can dipict someone being erased in any form they choose. As long as no remnants remain of that being.

Absolute nonsense. Ive distinguished multiple times in this thread the two confrontations where Sentry has been blown up (By Morgan Le Fay and by MM)

You kept saying he was erased from existence without initially highlighting which of the two incidents you were misinterpreting as this erasure from existence. I then replied saying he had never been erased from existence and posted scans of both incidents saying none featured him getting erased from existence:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
He stopped a nerfed Molecule Man. You have to take that into consideration. Not a Molecule Man at the height of his powers.

The MM of that Dark Avengers era was doing parlour tricks and had no showings beyond herald level. He had been disassociated with the cosmic cube origins by Bendis and was displaying vastly reduced power levels.

Your perception of him doesnt consider this context and is thus FLAWED. INACCURATE. NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE.

Erased from existence is being written out of existence through reality or chronal manipulation so that said being never existed in reality. Thats not what happened to Sentry.

https://imgur.com/4MOmxJP

https://imgur.com/qiJwLvn

He got blown up

Erased from existence?

Get a grip

As stated by himself, he remains alive if an atom of himself exists and he can manipulate matter to regenerate. However the output of a star is beyond the limits of his durability.

https://imgur.com/7fAGy6o

He had to be saved.

Not once did I say a single sentence saying that those two links were from the same incident or comic. So not only can you not interpret comics, but you cant interpret simple text either. This is embarrassing

Ive already debunked your erased from existence nonsense. Sentry was blown up and the comic in reference to this said Sentry was brutally killed by Morgan. Please show a scan of Morgan saying with that explosion she erased Sentry from existence?

I know exactly what part you've misinterpreted. Allow me to correctly interpret this comic for you. Morgan goes back to Dooms past to when he was a child in order to knife him to death in his bed. She then reconsiders saying she wants him to die knowing why hes being punished:

https://imgur.com/0atS78i

https://imgur.com/8lCN8ox

In the present she is killed by Sentry. She then travels back to the present from the past and blows him up in a huge energy explosion.

https://imgur.com/WMmTpwg

https://imgur.com/DE0shZP

She reappears stating that if she is killed again she will travel back to their childhoods (just like she did with Doom) and remove them from existence by killing them in their childhoods:

https://imgur.com/fzULa8N

Can you show us where Morgan stabbed or otherwise killed Sentry in his childhood? As thats the method she was shown to have had in store for Doom and what she was now proposing to use on the assembled "heroes."

We know she never did this to Sentry as if she did reality wouldve been altered and the heroes wouldve never known Sentry.

As ive stated all along, as the comic made abundantly clear she just blew him up.

To serve your agenda you misrepresented this simple killing so you could spread nonsense on this forum.

I have prevented that. You are conclusively wrong on this point. I do not want to hear any erasure from existence nonsense again. She blew his ass up. Simple.

Originally posted by h1a8
2. I'm referring to Sentry at his best, not at his worse. At his best he can reform from disintegration and erasure. Nothing less.

Doesn't work like that im afraid. His regeneration is a random occurrence that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. Its something he doesnt know the workings of and something he cant control. Its an unknown quantity that cant be relied upon as demonstrated explicitly with his recent showings and therefore not something that can be regarded as part of his standard repertoire. Moving on.....


Originally posted by h1a8
3. So you admit to using a character's lows against another character's highs? Shameful. You ignore your trolling with new arguments to cover it up. Dude you lost all credibility. You are not a respected debater but a clever troll.
I never stated Sentry would win this fight. I stated Sentry at his best (whether you call him void try or void is irrelevant) would win. If you concede to voidtry or whatever version of Sentry beating Phoenix then the debate is over. If you don't then let's continue the debate.

What are you waffling about? I have no need to concede as im handing your ass to you. Have you seen how the votes have changed since ive been contributing to this thread? Your points are poorly constructed and based on the most tenuous and misinterpreted evidence.

Originally posted by h1a8
4. How a character fights in battle is everything. It proves propensity and ability. Characters just don't sit there and allow you to do what you want. Phoenix may never get an opportunity to do anything if Sentry acts first. If Phoenix never did a certain tactic in a battle then why would she do so in a forum fight? Propensity dude.

Lets be clear. You asserted that the only feats and powers relevant to this versus match were those used in a battle scenario which was ludicrous. I highlighted how that isnt a forum rule and that instead was a parameter you had concocted to try and swing the debate in your favour as you were losing. That status is still very much current my friend.

As per the PIS rules in place in this forum, characters demonstrating various abilities on panel, but then not using their full range of abilities in battle scenarios is PIS and is not a reason to assert that said abilities cannot be referenced and made use of by forum members when detailing a versus match up.



As long as the abilities have been demonstrated by the character, are inherent to the character as standard and have been used on panel at the level the debater is referring to in the forum match then it is irrelevant whether said powers have been used in a battle scenario or not. They just need to have been used.

Get acquainted with the rules youve been touting.



Originally posted by h1a8
5. Full capacity I agree. But using a character's low showings (in which character has higher ones that contradict) against another character's high showings is trolling and certainly not using full capacity for both.

Who's doing that? The problem is, Sentrys highest showings are nowhere near the level required to beat the strongest of Phoenix hosts in a PIS exempt matchup and certainly not the Phoenix Force itself of which Sentry is just a facet of.

Whereas the feats of his you're so enamoured with actually arent that great when dissected e.g. his regeneration.

What low showings of Sentry's am i relying on?

Originally posted by h1a8
6. Travel in space speed doesn't equal battle speed. Sentry would view her as a statue. A human can travel at many times faster than light, provided they can spend time to accelerate to that speed. GLs can travel far faster than Phoenix can in space but they would be a statue to a real speedster in battle.

I really question that brain of yours. All of reality, all space, all time is determined by the Phoenix Force. There is no power or ability beyond its ability to make use of. It is the source of all powers. When are you going to read this and let that compute and get saved in those cells? Sentry existence is facilitated by the Phoenix Force. His powers and everything he can do are facilitated by the Phoenix Force. Yet youre telling me he can fly faster than and react faster than its most powerful host?

To travel through space at many times the speed of light and yet have the visual processing capacity and decision making speed to skilfully encircle planets (not crashing into them and everything else in your path) in order to slingshot yourself deeper into space and opening human sized stargates on the fly ahead of you and not missing them whilst flying at such insane speeds is a conclusive demonstration of supreme reaction time in addition to flying speeds in excess of anything thats been quantified for Sentry:

https://imgur.com/jbmGBIS

https://imgur.com/oHPFzGH

Please show us such reaction times from Sentry

Plus shes caught herald level beings off guard with her fighting speed, blasting them all over the shop:

https://imgur.com/4IoDQTR

https://imgur.com/Bn1Ipuc

https://imgur.com/kTF8fjO

all this talk about propensity and Jean wants to go finish off Firelord and kill him. Sentry would be toast lol

More Phoenix host reaction times. Dodging a herald racing towards her at extreme speed and catching her mid flight:

https://imgur.com/GFzew9U

https://imgur.com/Aqu5uqc

Ive also noticed that as the debate has progressed youve smartly shied away from focusing on the Phoenix Force itself and moved to exclusively talking about Jean Grey.

I take it you conceded on this nonsense?:

Originally posted by h1a8


Even if the thread was about PF then there is no way it is beating Bob's most powerful form. Mm >>>>> PF. PF can't stop Bob from reforming, assuming it can even kill Bob to begin with.



Originally posted by h1a8
7. Sentry has many durability feats that make him more durable than Hercules and Thor. So separating his atoms is one hell of a feat.

All irrelevant when he cant survive the energy output of the Sun and the Phoenix Force powers the universes stars and its hosts eat them for breakfast:

https://imgur.com/oHPFzGH

https://imgur.com/iD6opLa

Phoenix at best is more durable and can output energy levels that exceed Sentrys stated durability limit. So stop talking about how durable he is if the limits of said durability are able to be conclusively exceeded by the character hes pitted against here. Its irrelevant waffle. Just accept his durability isnt saving him and MMs feat of disintegration is conclusively something both Jean and the Phoenix can do because both wield more power than that nerfed MM. Thats the crux of the matter.

Originally posted by h1a8
8. Prove that it is canon that MM was amped with beyonders energies when he faced Galactus. Stating it's canon is not proof.

This has zero to do with our debate because that MM was from 7yrs after your Sentry incident and possessed the power of the Beyonders. Are you just trying to add filler to your barebones argument by going off on a tangent?

We shall conclude our Phoenix vs Sentry discussion and then if you want to talk about that MM vs Galactus incident we can have a separate follow up discussion thats not a problem at all.

Ahead of that....keep your ass on topic

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Lets be clear. You asserted that the only feats and powers relevant to this versus match were those used in a battle scenario which was ludicrous. I highlighted how that isnt a forum rule and that instead was a parameter you had concocted to try and swing the debate in your favour as you were losing. That status is still very much current my friend.

You still have to prove propensity. A feat that happened in battle is proof. These are not member controlled characters. They fight in character. Now if you can prove Phoenix will attempt to erase or disintegrate Sentry then you have to prove
1. She's able to disintegrate someone as durable as Sentry and keep him from reforming.
2. She would choose to do so (propensity)
3. She's able to erase Sentry from existence with a gesture.
4. She would choose to do so (propensity).

If she never done any in battle then you would have a hard time proving. It's possible though.

What does PIS have to do with anything?

The onus is still on you to prove propensity. No battle feats = hard (but not impossible) case. These aren't member controlled characters. You are when you stated the sun disintegrating Sentry (which wasn't instant). That's a low showing. Sentry has durability feats above that.
Sentry is at least as durable as Hercules, Thor, etc. So atomizing him is one hell of a feat. You have to show that Phoenix can atomize someone as durable. We don't use no limit scenarios. You must provide feats.

Wrong. Space is bigger than you think. For example, someone with human level reactions can easily navigate space at many times the speed of light. The average distances between objects is large. For example, it takes light 8 minutes to reach Earth from the Sun. So a human has 1 minute to react (to avoid hitting the Sun) when traveling at 8 times the speed of light. Humans can react as fast as 0.2 of a second.

The distance between planets is larger. The distance between stars is even larger. The average distance between asteroids is 600,000 miles. It would take light more than 3 seconds to travel between asteroids.

But here's the kicker. Space is so large that if so you traveled at many times the speed of light in a random direction you would have less than a 0.0001% chance of hitting any large objects after traveling for a year.

Originally posted by h1a8
You still have to prove propensity. A feat that happened in battle is proof. These are not member controlled characters. They fight in character. Now if you can prove Phoenix will attempt to erase or disintegrate Sentry then you have to prove
1. She's able to disintegrate someone as durable as Sentry and keep him from reforming.
2. She would choose to do so (propensity)
3. She's able to erase Sentry from existence with a gesture.
4. She would choose to do so (propensity).

If she never done any in battle then you would have a hard time proving. It's possible though.

What does PIS have to do with anything?

The onus is still on you to prove propensity. No battle feats = hard (but not impossible) case. These aren't member controlled characters



According to the forum rules, propensity, ability at a certain capacity and said ability being a viable tactic for them (i.e not taking them ages to implement leaving them vulnerable, or exhausting all of their energies taking them out of the fight themselves) are all that need to be demonstrated, not the additional nonsense you're fabricating as you go along.

A character does not need to have used an ability within a battle scenario in order for that to be referenced in a hypothetical match up. They just need to have demonstrated the power on panel at the necessary intensity and the propensity.

Whilst these are not member controlled characters, we are according to forum rules supplementing their battle strategies and able to refer to confirmed abilities they have but might not generally use or have used in battle at all because of PIS.

I have demonstrated in my previous post that Jean Grey has the propensity to be ruthless and bully, maim, disintegrate her foes if the stakes are high enough:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm


Jean Grey is known for being a hothead, who can be ruthless in confrontations and has no issue making hard decisions if lives depend on it. With that in mind, incinerating Sentry, or disabling him in some manner to render him a non-threat is well within her character:

Savagely attacking Emma Frost in a psi battle:


https://imgur.com/N15jA0D


Brutalizing Sabretooth for threatening lives:

https://imgur.com/OHIsGsW

https://imgur.com/bqbvi8A

https://imgur.com/KdJNgMz

https://imgur.com/Z9I9inK

Vindictively roughing up Emma Frost for her psychic affair with Cyclops and threatening her with her own twist on a penance stare:

https://imgur.com/4ZpPOSX

https://imgur.com/4uTN8Mo

https://imgur.com/nAeLt7b

https://imgur.com/r6BGSqv

https://imgur.com/P4dArb5

Disintegrating inhabitants of an island that had been morphed into plant hybrids and threatened lives:

https://imgur.com/gA8JwFo

https://imgur.com/Nla16sN



Characters start off each battle with basic knowledge of each other. It is well known in the superhero community that Sentry is highly dangerous and mentally unstable so Jean would not be fighting with kid gloves. She would be going all out to disable him and if necessary kill him. I have shown that is in character.

Therefore removing PIS of the comics out of the equation, it would be in character for her to use sufficiently high level attacks in order to take him out. According to forum rules I can supplement her battle strategy by referring to powers she has demonstrated sufficient ability in and it would be in character to resort to even if she hasnt used them in battle on panel, as PIS is a thing. Your words to the contrary are a misunderstanding on your part. Read the rules.

If Jean has demonstrated the ability on panel to have total telekinetic control over every atom in the 616 universe and her handbook entry is updated to reflect that she has total telekinetic control of matter on a universal scale, then she officially has that ability as the Phoenix and it is ludicrous to say that unless she has used that power in a battle scenario then theres no proof. The woman materialized every facet of 616 in her palm atom by atom, all the cosmics, the gods, the stars, the planets, all your fave heroes were atomically disassembled and then reassembled in her palm. That is exponentially greater power than necessary to atomize Sentry as demonstrated by Morgan Le Fay and the nerfed Molecule Man who did it with considerably less power at their disposal. That is indisputable.


Whether its heralds

https://imgur.com/WKGsVdH

https://imgur.com/Q8Y8jgR



Celestials (And this was Jean expelling the last remnant bit of Phoenix left in her after her 1st resurrection so she wasnt even a full host here)

https://imgur.com/b36PdKA

planets

https://imgur.com/VBJjHde

https://imgur.com/m1WIAmW

Solar systems

https://imgur.com/V4i1mnr

https://imgur.com/H8ThnmR

https://imgur.com/yd4plHv


A Phoenix host has far more raw power than is required to disintegrate Sentry, who even when voided out got dismembered by Thor, didnt automatically regenerate and then his remains were turned into instant ash just by close proximity to the sun:

https://imgur.com/qoBu2Hc

https://imgur.com/jqV239U

https://imgur.com/DNCYZLv

a simple star that a Phoenix host bathes in and snacks on:

https://imgur.com/oHPFzGH

https://imgur.com/iD6opLa

So not only is a Phoenix host capable of exponentially greater energy output than that required to end Sentry, but they have demonstrated greater feats of durability as well.



Please stop referring to Sentrys regeneration as a given, as it is not. He has regenerated at times and most recently he has not despite wanting to in order to help his friends against Knull. It is a sporadic ability that occurs under unknown circumstances, so until it is defined and made a guaranteed outcome following the destruction of his body, you conclusively cannot reference it.

Originally posted by h1a8
. You are when you stated the sun disintegrating Sentry (which wasn't instant). That's a low showing. Sentry has durability feats above that.
Sentry is at least as durable as Hercules, Thor, etc. So atomizing him is one hell of a feat. You have to show that Phoenix can atomize someone as durable. We don't use no limit scenarios. You must provide feats.

The onus is on YOU to prove that his remains getting turned to ash instantly by the suns output is a low showing.

The sun has often been a benchmark in demonstrating durability in Marvel comics with beings like Mangog and Knull being unable to withstand it:


Jane Foster threw Mangog into the sun and he survived the 1st attempt much to the amazement of the goddess Frigga (thereby demonstrating how high a benchmark the sun is)

https://imgur.com/o5kNcLh

https://imgur.com/lnuheAL

2nd attempt

https://imgur.com/RnpJ5qP

https://imgur.com/taF7pws

(Mangog demonstrating considerably greater durability extremes than Sentry by requiring 2 sun dips to get taken out.)


The sun being used to kill Knull, the Celestial and Sentry killing god:

https://imgur.com/1N7Jeal

https://imgur.com/WbOQgTM

https://imgur.com/RQNzstu

Knull at least displayed higher durability than Sentry having to be held in the sun for a period to be disintegrated as opposed to Sentrys discorporation as he reached the corona

Even LT regards the sun as a high level punishment, calling it his ultimate punishment and a weapon he deemed sufficient to deal with Korvac:

https://imgur.com/3af6ASB

https://imgur.com/SyyXV3X

That again shows you how powerful the Sun is and the regard for its capacity for destruction.


So why would Sentry getting instantly chargrilled by the suns corona be a low showing? Hes no Mangog or Knull and the suns sufficient to end them. The Suns powerful enough for it to be LTs weapon of choice. Yet its a low showing for Sentry? BS. You know by acknowledging the sun as being beyond the capacity of Sentrys durability then this is game, set and match.

Him withstanding fisticuffs from other class 100s is not sufficient

All this proof youre demanding from me and your evidence has been barebones and countered by me at every turn.

Share some scans that demonstrate Sentrys durability is so uber that him getting chargrilled by the sun is a low showing?

I'll wait.....


Originally posted by h1a8
Wrong. Space is bigger than you think. For example, someone with human level reactions can easily navigate space at many times the speed of light. The average distances between objects is large. For example, it takes light 8 minutes to reach Earth from the Sun. So a human has 1 minute to react (to avoid hitting the Sun) when traveling at 8 times the speed of light. Humans can react as fast as 0.2 of a second.

The distance between planets is larger. The distance between stars is even larger. The average distance between asteroids is 600,000 miles. It would take light more than 3 seconds to travel between asteroids.

But here's the kicker. Space is so large that if so you traveled at many times the speed of light in a random direction you would have less than a 0.0001% chance of hitting any large objects after traveling for a year.


Can we have some integrity please? Youre entirely ignoring the evidence you cant counter and just addressing the points you give a rebuttal to. Thats not how a debate works. If you cant counter, that should tell you something. Be a man and address all points whether it works in your favour or not

In addition to the flight speed feats (of which you have yet to demonstrate Sentry can compete on) I showed scans of Phoenix out manoeuvring heralds in battle, thus demonstrating competitive reaction time.

What scans have you provided demonstrating Sentry's incomparable reaction time? Practice what you preach! Where are the scans?!!

So to sum up:

Whilst forum battles dont allow us to supplant the characters, we are operating a PIS free zone and are allowed to supplement their hypothetical battle strategies by referring to abilities theyve demonstrated they have (whether demonstration took place in battle or not) as long as using such an ability is arguably within character.


you have presented zero durability feats in scan form to demonstrate why getting instantly cremated was a low showing

Sentrys regeneration is not automatic, he has no control over it, he has zero knowledge regarding its inner workings, it doesnt happen every time his body is destroyed (hence him currently being deceased) so its an unknown quantity that manifests within unknown conditions. According to forum rules it cannot be referenced as a standard ability within forum battles. Its off the table. Cry about it.

Thats all folks.

^ Even I can admit, being burned in the Sun is not a low showing given all of the high-end comic characters that have been defeated by same. It's a comics trope at this point.

Let's just keep in mind that Knull has defeated Celestials. So the most current version of Sentry being defeated by Knull is not a low showing.

Even moreso recebntl, given the cosmic significance that Al Ewing is bestowing upon the King in Black in his ongoing Venom series.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Even I can admit, being burned in the Sun is not a low showing given all of the high-end comic characters that have been defeated by same. It's a comics trope at this point.

Let's just keep in mind that Knull has defeated Celestials. So the most current version of Sentry being defeated by Knull is not a low showing.

Even moreso recebntl, given the cosmic significance that Al Ewing is bestowing upon the King in Black in his ongoing Venom series.



Im really enjoying where Ewings taken the Marvel cosmology. I thought making the King in Blacks counterparts to The Beyonders was inspired.

My worry is August's G.O.D.S title from Jonathan Hickman. This event is supposedly a revision and revitalization of the Marvel cosmology as well. I love Hickmans work, but if its going to upend everything Ewing did so well in Ultimates, Defenders and Venom, im not really here for it confused

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The onus is on YOU to prove that his remains getting turned to ash instantly by the suns output is a low showing.

The sun has often been a benchmark in demonstrating durability in Marvel comics with beings like Mangog and Knull being unable to withstand it:


Jane Foster threw Mangog into the sun and he survived the 1st attempt much to the amazement of the goddess Frigga (thereby demonstrating how high a benchmark the sun is)

https://imgur.com/o5kNcLh

https://imgur.com/lnuheAL

2nd attempt

https://imgur.com/RnpJ5qP

https://imgur.com/taF7pws

(Mangog demonstrating considerably greater durability extremes than Sentry by requiring 2 sun dips to get taken out.)


The sun being used to kill Knull, the Celestial and Sentry killing god:

https://imgur.com/1N7Jeal

https://imgur.com/WbOQgTM

https://imgur.com/RQNzstu

Knull at least displayed higher durability than Sentry having to be held in the sun for a period to be disintegrated as opposed to Sentrys discorporation as he reached the corona

Even LT regards the sun as a high level punishment, calling it his ultimate punishment and a weapon he deemed sufficient to deal with Korvac:

https://imgur.com/3af6ASB

https://imgur.com/SyyXV3X

That again shows you how powerful the Sun is and the regard for its capacity for destruction.


So why would Sentry getting instantly chargrilled by the suns corona be a low showing? Hes no Mangog or Knull and the suns sufficient to end them. The Suns powerful enough for it to be LTs weapon of choice. Yet its a low showing for Sentry? BS. You know by acknowledging the sun as being beyond the capacity of Sentrys durability then this is game, set and match.

Him withstanding fisticuffs from other class 100s is not sufficient

All this proof youre demanding from me and your evidence has been barebones and countered by me at every turn.

Share some scans that demonstrate Sentrys durability is so uber that him getting chargrilled by the sun is a low showing?

I'll wait.....





Can we have some integrity please? Youre entirely ignoring the evidence you cant counter and just addressing the points you give a rebuttal to. Thats not how a debate works. If you cant counter, that should tell you something. Be a man and address all points whether it works in your favour or not

In addition to the flight speed feats (of which you have yet to demonstrate Sentry can compete on) I showed scans of Phoenix out manoeuvring heralds in battle, thus demonstrating competitive reaction time.

What scans have you provided demonstrating Sentry's incomparable reaction time? Practice what you preach! Where are the scans?!!

So to sum up:

Whilst forum battles dont allow us to supplant the characters, we are operating a PIS free zone and are allowed to supplement their hypothetical battle strategies by referring to abilities theyve demonstrated they have (whether demonstration took place in battle or not) as long as using such an ability is arguably within character.


you have presented zero durability feats in scan form to demonstrate why getting instantly cremated was a low showing

Sentrys regeneration is not automatic, he has no control over it, he has zero knowledge regarding its inner workings, it doesnt happen every time his body is destroyed (hence him currently being deceased) so its an unknown quantity that manifests within unknown conditions. According to forum rules it cannot be referenced as a standard ability within forum battles. Its off the table. Cry about it.

Thats all folks.

1. Sentry has tanked beyond trillions of tons per square inch of pressure multiple times. The pressure in the Sun is far less than that. Sentry has stood in gamma lava (which is hotter than the average temperature of the Sun) without any damage. Tanks Thor's lightning for several seconds. Normal lightning is hotter than the Sun. So the sun is a low showing.

2. But you never proved propensity for Phoenix. You keep stating that a character doesn't need battle feats to prove propensity. I stated it was possible to prove without battle feats. But you never proved such.

A. Prove she will attempt to atomize him.
B. Prove that she can atomize him.
C. Prove that she won't reform.
D. Prove that she will attempt to erase him.
E. Prove that she can erase him.
F. Prove that he won't come back from being erased.

That's 6 things that you have to prove. Not 1 not 2 not 3 but 6. Failure to prove all 6 is lose of the debate.

3. Jean fought plenty of beings that were extremely dangerous but never attempted or though about such attacks. The ability to think of tactics (creativity) and the ability to choose are two different things. She has to do both. Keep hacking. I'll argue that she will try to blast him with full power. While Sentry will act first and Disintegrate her.

4. Phoenix has never shown total telekinetic control over ever atom in the 616 universe. I saw that scan and disagree with your interpretation. All her battles prove otherwise. Handbooks are not Canon. Handbooks reference comics. Comics don't reference Handbooks. Even if she did. Sentry would still act first and Disintegrate her. Even if Sentry allowed her to act first, he would still reform.

5. You continue to use the lowball highball troll game. Why not use high feats for both and debate from there? Phoenix has some laughable low showings. You don't see me mentioning them do you?

6. Flight speed is not battle speed (perceptions, reactions, etc). Sentry has casually reacted and traveled more than 10ft to catch a bullet before it has travel an inch to kill someone. That's far faster than any reaction feat by Phoenix.

7. This is Sentry at his best (MM version). His regeneration works all the time and every time. Nice try. Even Death Seed Sentry regeneration worked all the time. You have to prove that Phoenix has the ability to prevent his regeneration from working.

8. Lol Mangog etc were PIS showings. Using them as prove the Sun is not a low showing is laughable. The entire members of kmc made fun of that. You have many heralds that survived being in the sun throughout marvel history. The math ev3n proves it is PIS (the temperature and pressure is below what characters have experienced)

And you lost credibility when you tried to use deception and post a scan from a comic that has nothing to with Sentry getting erased as proof he blew up. I'm not going to ignore that. I'm going to state it every time. You were a bogus troll for that

This is it?

Its getting easier with every post. Lets begin

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Sentry has tanked beyond trillions of tons per square inch of pressure multiple times. The pressure in the Sun is far less than that. Sentry has stood in gamma lava (which is hotter than the average temperature of the Sun) without any damage. Tanks Thor's lightning for several seconds. Normal lightning is hotter than the Sun. So the sun is a low showing.

Because pressure is the only dangerous characteristic that stems from getting your ass tossed in the sun?


Show some scans of this gamma lava. If thats beyond your ability to do then tell me the series and issue it happened in and i'll get it for you and i'll post it for discussion. Ive got no problem doing so as i have integrity and im all about bringing the truth to light. Either drop the scan or tell me where it can be found

The top temperature of lightning is only hotter than the suns corona at 50,000 degrees fahrenheit. The inner layers of the sun can reach 28, 000 000 degrees fahrenheit. They are not the same lol.

To sum up this lil segment, we dont know what elements of the Suns makeup the Sentry was so vulnerable to. Theres pressure, temperature and radioactivity to consider. For all we know its the unique mix of all of them that is not found in either gamma lava or lightning that results in the sun being such a powerful destructive tool and a Sentry killer



Originally posted by h1a8
2. But you never proved propensity for Phoenix. You keep stating that a character doesn't need battle feats to prove propensity. I stated it was possible to prove without battle feats. But you never proved such.

A. Prove she will attempt to atomize him.
B. Prove that she can atomize him.
C. Prove that she won't reform.
D. Prove that she will attempt to erase him.
E. Prove that she can erase him.
F. Prove that he won't come back from being erased.

That's 6 things that you have to prove. Not 1 not 2 not 3 but 6. Failure to prove all 6 is lose of the debate.

For propensity, all i had to prove is that it is within Jeans character to be ruthless and make those hard decisions which ive done. Thats the extent of my responsibility regarding propensity.

Beyond that as per the forum rules, the character is fighting at optimum levels using all abilities at their disposal. Said abilities do not have to have been used in a battle scenario, they just have to have been demonstrated as part of the characters powerset.

I can then supplement their battle strategy by highlighting such abilities.

These are the forum rules that you worryingly seem to have been entirely oblivious to all this time. Glad to be of assistance


Originally posted by h1a8
3. Jean fought plenty of beings that were extremely dangerous but never attempted or though about such attacks. The ability to think of tactics (creativity) and the ability to choose are two different things. She has to do both. Keep hacking. I'll argue that she will try to blast him with full power. While Sentry will act first and Disintegrate her.

And yet such abilities demonstrably being within her powerset and not being used when they could end a battle in split seconds every time would be an example of PIS.

Versus battles are a PIS free zone and examples of PIS are not permitted to be used as evidence in the forum.

Without evidence that Sentry can exceed the speed feats or the reaction time feats ive provided for Jean, your arguments are featherweight and baseless.

I'll be needing those scans now.....

Originally posted by h1a8
4. Phoenix has never shown total telekinetic control over ever atom in the 616 universe. I saw that scan and disagree with your interpretation. All her battles prove otherwise. Handbooks are not Canon. Handbooks reference comics. Comics don't reference Handbooks. Even if she did. Sentry would still act first and Disintegrate her. Even if Sentry allowed her to act first, he would still reform.

Handbooks reflect the canon presented in comics. A big focus of New X-men was Jeans expanding psychic potential (specifically her telekinesis) in line with the Phoenix manifesting within her again:

She smashed through the psychic defences of the U-men and threatened them with molecular deconstruction:

https://imgur.com/wV9iLfq

https://imgur.com/yo7fnCH

https://imgur.com/6ES5eGI

https://imgur.com/MkAFPO5

https://imgur.com/4d7mL0M

https://imgur.com/L92EWRU

https://imgur.com/mivzTke

Absorbed Xaviers mind into her own, before splitting his consciousness into a million different mutant minds across the planet and sustaining this transition so Cassandra who was possessing Xaviers body could unknowingly reconnect his fragmented consciousness when she used Cerebra allowing Xavier to reoccupy his body:

https://imgur.com/u36rPiM

https://imgur.com/0amqipw

https://imgur.com/hyPD5Oo

https://imgur.com/N8WngtA

Xavier later decided to test this expanded psychic potential with a focus on her telekinesis and found it had reached an unprecedented level:

https://imgur.com/uvmaY8s

https://imgur.com/MPVIxaE

https://imgur.com/OW0fMKK

https://imgur.com/KmZGFK3

https://imgur.com/v2fTOak

Jean absorbs Hanks medical knowledge before telekinetically reassembling Emma's molecular structure:

https://imgur.com/2G7Dvf0

https://imgur.com/treQN9r

https://imgur.com/LLLXBDE

Jean talks about how with the developing Phoenix manifestation her telekinesis has advanced to the point where shes controlling the component parts of matter and her senses have expanded beyond all boundaries:

https://imgur.com/eWNkf4U

Logan euthanizes Jean as they are about to die in space and this releases the Phoenix consciousness making Jean a fully fledged Phoenix host again. In this form she possesses total telekinetic control of matter at the molecular level:

https://imgur.com/IRbuQMM

Jean atomizes a species and suspends the atomic deconstruction of one mutant caught in the crossfire so she can study the atoms deconstructing in slow mo:

https://imgur.com/O5nX0NZ

https://imgur.com/E3P9a5g

Sublime injects himself with some of Jeans genetic material so he can access her Phoenix powers which he calls "telekinetic godhood":

https://imgur.com/8yGCyNN

After obtaining Jeans power he refers to how all matter responds to his slightest whim and his telekinesis is so advanced he can rewrite an androids computer programming via telekinesis which is insane:

https://imgur.com/WSDeMUu

Its even able to rewrite DNA and switch off Wolverines mutant gene:

https://imgur.com/aOvoSV1

https://imgur.com/kLUL3Og

The culmination of Jeans telekinetic development results in her becoming the White Phoenix and amputating the future Here Comes Tomorrow reality from 616:

https://imgur.com/FLicZ7h

https://imgur.com/B3rPbU6


Before then materializing 616 in the White Hot Room where the Phoenix Force mentions that her telekinetic control of all the universes atoms isnt an easy task even for a White level Phoenix.

https://imgur.com/QUItnRZ


Jeans Phoenix handbook entry was then updated following this incident to talk of her total telekinetic control of matter at the universal level. Something never mentioned before.

Official handbook of the Marvel Universe - Book of the Dead 2004:

https://imgur.com/7gznS6V

This was released same year as New X-men was in print and therefore refers to her total telekinetic control of matter at the molecular level but not the scale of that power which wasnt revealed until the end of the New X-men story arc.

Following her New X-men feat her handbook bios (OHOTMU A to Z v1#8 2009 and X-men: Phoenix Force Handbook 2010) were updated to reflect the scale she demonstrated by the end of the New X-men series:

https://imgur.com/MduUmvv

In reflection of her feat, she is now officially able to manipulate atomic structures on a universal scale.

The conclusive evidence is there. Your opinion to the contrary is irrelevant.

Do not have the audacity to dismiss conclusive evidence whilst supplementing your empty arguments with nada



Originally posted by h1a8
5. You continue to use the lowball highball troll game. Why not use high feats for both and debate from there? Phoenix has some laughable low showings. You don't see me mentioning them do you?

Im not lowballing at all. Sentry getting washed by the Sun isnt a low showing. Not when the sun is capable of taking out many cosmics and is considered by LT to be his "ultimate punishment" and powerful enough to deal with Korvac as far as he was concerned.

Theres a difference between you not liking a showing and it being a low showing. With the context ive provided youre misrepresenting the showing.

Originally posted by h1a8
6. Flight speed is not battle speed (perceptions, reactions, etc). Sentry has casually reacted and traveled more than 10ft to catch a bullet before it has travel an inch to kill someone. That's far faster than any reaction feat by Phoenix.

Bullets travel about 1800 mph. Big deal. Daredevil and Spiderman dodge bullets at close range all the damn time. That isnt good enough for you to assert that he would be able to take a Phoenix host out before they can act when they have multiple showings of outmanoeuvring heralds and catching them off guard and as per forum rules they start off 0.5km away from each other.

You just do not have the evidence to quantify his comparative reaction time and assert its any quicker than hers. So this is a redundant line of argument. Provide something more conclusive than catching a damn bullet or drop it.

Originally posted by h1a8
7. This is Sentry at his best (MM version). His regeneration works all the time and every time. Nice try. Even Death Seed Sentry regeneration worked all the time. You have to prove that Phoenix has the ability to prevent his regeneration from working.

Incorrect. Forum rules specifically regarding Sentry state that MM showing cannot be considered an average showing as the abilities displayed were an outlier and therefore unverifiable.

The general battle rulings state that "It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels."

So no. MM Sentry would not be the version in question here.

Furthermore, the forum rules stipulate that it is a single battle. Not battles out of 5, not battles out of 10, unless stipulated by the OP. If Sentry's body is atomized and he cant immediately or within seconds return to the fight, then the match is over. Standard Sentry has NEVER shown the ability to immediately regenerate from the destruction of the majority of his body. Once he gets smoked, its over. Tough break.


Originally posted by h1a8
8. Lol Mangog etc were PIS showings. Using them as prove the Sun is not a low showing is laughable. The entire members of kmc made fun of that. You have many heralds that survived being in the sun throughout marvel history. The math ev3n proves it is PIS (the temperature and pressure is below what characters have experienced)

As i stated before, something isnt a low showing just because you dont like it and your whole argument centres around it lol.

In Siege it was demonstrated the sun turns Sentry into instant ash. In Uncanny Avengers that point was verified when Death Seed Sentry talked about the sun being able to breach the limit of his durability and prevent regeneration. It is therefore not a low showing. It is his verified limit in two separate comic book sources by two different writers in different story arcs. You will deal.

Sentry may withstand lightning, he may withstand blows from class 100s, he may withstand gamma lava, however none of those things bring together the unique mix of characteristics the sun does so its an apples to oranges comparison.

The Sun is too much for Sentry and that is not a low showing for him as the same holds true for other powerful beings. Chin up. You did your best

Originally posted by h1a8
And you lost credibility when you tried to use deception and post a scan from a comic that has nothing to with Sentry getting erased as proof he blew up. I'm not going to ignore that. I'm going to state it every time. You were a bogus troll for that

Translation: Im getting absolutely eaten up here so let me avoid a head on debate and instead fabricate some nonsense and attack his credibility.

If your arguments flopping, drop the pride and wave that white flag stretcher

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This is it?

Its getting easier with every post. Lets begin



Because pressure is the only dangerous characteristic that stems from getting your ass tossed in the sun?


Show some scans of this gamma lava. If thats beyond your ability to do then tell me the series and issue it happened in and i'll get it for you and i'll post it for discussion. Ive got no problem doing so as i have integrity and im all about bringing the truth to light. Either drop the scan or tell me where it can be found

The top temperature of lightning is only hotter than the suns corona at 50,000 degrees fahrenheit. The inner layers of the sun can reach 28, 000 000 degrees fahrenheit. They are not the same lol.

To sum up this lil segment, we dont know what elements of the Suns makeup the Sentry was so vulnerable to. Theres pressure, temperature and radioactivity to consider. For all we know its the unique mix of all of them that is not found in either gamma lava or lightning that results in the sun being such a powerful destructive tool and a Sentry killer





For propensity, all i had to prove is that it is within Jeans character to be ruthless and make those hard decisions which ive done. Thats the extent of my responsibility regarding propensity.

Beyond that as per the forum rules, the character is fighting at optimum levels using all abilities at their disposal. Said abilities do not have to have been used in a battle scenario, they just have to have been demonstrated as part of the characters powerset.

I can then supplement their battle strategy by highlighting such abilities.

These are the forum rules that you worryingly seem to have been entirely oblivious to all this time. Glad to be of assistance




And yet such abilities demonstrably being within her powerset and not being used when they could end a battle in split seconds every time would be an example of PIS.

Versus battles are a PIS free zone and examples of PIS are not permitted to be used as evidence in the forum.

Without evidence that Sentry can exceed the speed feats or the reaction time feats ive provided for Jean, your arguments are featherweight and baseless.

I'll be needing those scans now.....

I talked about pressure. Sentry resisted pressure that was orders of magnitudes above the Sun's pressure. Did you read it? Yes the sun's core is hotter than lightning. I will post the scan of the gamma lava later. The fact that many high heralds have entered the Sun's core like nothing is definitely a low showing for Mangog.

A. You never proved pronsenity. Stating things you would do from your own reasoning is not the same as someone else doing the same. You have to prove by actual showings. If Phoenix did something once then it is in her character. If she never done something and fought plenty of times then it's simply not in her character. Phoenix has fought beings much more dangerous than Sentry.

B. You never proved she has the ability to disintegrate someone of Sentry's durability.
You never proved she can erase him and also keep him erased.

C. You never proved that Phoenix perceptions and reactions are faster than Sentry's. Hell I'm not sure if she has faster than human level reactions.
What reaction feats? You never posted any for her.

Post feats of her atomizing someone of Sentry's level. Not weaker characters.

Guess how long it takes a 9mm bullet to travel 2 inches? 0.0001 of a second.
This means that Sentry can accelerate to speeds beyond light speed in about 0.0001 of a second. That means Sentry can reach speeds beyond Phoenix best in less than 8 seconds. But this feat was in an atmosphere where drag forces reduces speed by many orders of magnitude. So in space Sentry would be many orders of magnitude faster.

You are an idiot. I stated that I'm arguing Sentry at his best as a side argument. Not the thread title. You can continue to argue that version of Sentry against me or we can conclude the debate. My original argument is that Sentry at his best will beat Phoenix. That's what I'm arguing, nothing else.

You are another idiot. I stated something was a low showing because many other showings contradict it. Duh. Mangog dying in the sun is a low showing. The entire set of members on kmc criticized that arc. Where were you?

Again you lost credibility posting a scan that has nothing to do with Sentry being erased as to trick me. What's wrong with you?

This descent was rapid.

Is this really what we've come to?

This is some bottom of the barrel debating.

Originally posted by h1a8
I talked about pressure. Sentry resisted pressure that was orders of magnitudes above the Sun's pressure. Did you read it? Yes the sun's core is hotter than lightning. I will post the scan of the gamma lava later. The fact that many high heralds have entered the Sun's core like nothing is definitely a low showing for Mangog.

I read your comments on pressure and i addressed why they like so many others in your arsenal were weak:

Here

Originally posted by GalacticStorm


To sum up this lil segment, we dont know what elements of the Suns makeup the Sentry was so vulnerable to. Theres pressure, temperature and radioactivity to consider. For all we know its the unique mix of all of them that is not found in either gamma lava or lightning that results in the sun being such a powerful destructive tool and a Sentry killer



and here:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm


As i stated before, something isnt a low showing just because you dont like it and your whole argument centres around it lol.

In Siege it was demonstrated the sun turns Sentry into instant ash. In Uncanny Avengers that point was verified when Death Seed Sentry talked about the sun being able to breach the limit of his durability and prevent regeneration. It is therefore not a low showing. It is his verified limit in two separate comic book sources by two different writers in different story arcs. You will deal.

Sentry may withstand lightning, he may withstand blows from class 100s, he may withstand gamma lava, however none of those things bring together the unique mix of characteristics the sun does so its an apples to oranges comparison.

The Sun is too much for Sentry and that is not a low showing for him as the same holds true for other powerful beings. Chin up. You did your best

If herald beings have withstood the Sun undamaged, that doesnt make Sentrys confirmed and verified weakness to the sun a low showing. It just means he has a particular weakness to the Sun and the heralds makeup is able to deal with the Sun better.

Regardless as i highlighted, it is a confirmed and verified vulnerability for Sentry. Sound off to Marvel. Until such times as a canon source demonstrates differently, the status quo is what it is. Breathe and cope


Originally posted by h1a8
A. You never proved pronsenity. Stating things you would do from your own reasoning is not the same as someone else doing the same. You have to prove by actual showings. If Phoenix did something once then it is in her character. If she never done something and fought plenty of times then it's simply not in her character. Phoenix has fought beings much more dangerous than Sentry.

No. I. Don't. Thats your misunderstanding. It appears your forum life has been a lie

I have to demonstrate the character has the power, that they have the character/personality to resort to such a tactic and that it is a viable tactic for them (i.e not going to take ages to execute, or its not gonna make them collapse with exhaustion after pulling it off) with those things proven, if a character doesnt use said abilities when all 3 conditions above are met, then it is considered PIS. The forum is a PIS free zone. I am then able to supplement a characters battle strategy in a versus match by highlighting the abilities in question.

You have got things twisted. Read the rules. I am not going to reply to a comment on this line of argument again. Ive done debunked your ass.

Originally posted by h1a8
B. You never proved she has the ability to disintegrate someone of Sentry's durability.
You never proved she can erase him and also keep him erased.

Of course i have. The Phoenix Force is the source of all energy in Marvel. It is the power behind the universes stars. Sentry gets washed by seconds of exposure to just one of them... the sun, and it prevents him from regenerating.

Through various scans Ive shown that Jeans amputated limbs from Celestials, destroyed universes on panel and through molecular manipulation has the sheer power to control all the atoms of the universe in her palm of which all the galaxies, solar systems, planets and your heroes were just facets of.

Same way the significantly less powerful Molecule Man did so by molecular manipulation, Jean Grey with her canon total telekinetic control of matter at a far greater power level and scope than Molecule Man had in that era, is therefore conclusively capable of the same.

Your logic is absurd. The Living Tribunal and Multi-Eternity haven't disintegrated beings beyond Sentry level either, so by your logic their power that's been shown to be demonstrably superior via its implementation in other activities isn't transferrable and they have to be shown doing the exact same thing or they cant destroy Sentry LOL.

Its like Rogue lifting a rock. But you arguing that unless Thor lifts that same rock then theres no evidence that he can do it to despite the rock being lifted through no hidden means, just sheer physical strength, an ability Rogue and Thor both share, but Thor just demonstrably has that ability to a far greater extent.

Youre being purposely pedantic and obstructive because you have no argument of note, its all been decimated and this nonsense behaviour is all you have left to cling to. Have you no shame?

Originally posted by h1a8
C. You never proved that Phoenix perceptions and reactions are faster than Sentry's. Hell I'm not sure if she has faster than human level reactions.
What reaction feats? You never posted any for her.

Youve posted zero evidence at all. Youve just given me words

Ive shown scans of Phoenixes outmanoeuvring heralds and youre out here talking about Sentry catching bullets LOL


Originally posted by h1a8
Guess how long it takes a 9mm bullet to travel 2 inches? 0.0001 of a second.
This means that Sentry can accelerate to speeds beyond light speed in about 0.0001 of a second. That means Sentry can reach speeds beyond Phoenix best in less than 8 seconds. But this feat was in an atmosphere where drag forces reduces speed by many orders of magnitude. So in space Sentry would be many orders of magnitude faster.

We're back to talking about outpacing bullets which is a Daredevil/Spiderman level feat? LOL

https://imgur.com/gYj9ywn

Rogue outdoes that with multiple times more bullets lol

https://imgur.com/FZida5b

https://imgur.com/mRKOzKM

Your words and half baked calculations are not enough. Where are your scans? Where are your scans?!! I already demonstrated with your erasure from existence nonsense (that i debunked) that your memory isnt a reliable source of evidence lol

Bullets move at 1800mph. I can guarantee thats a snails pace in comparison to a vengeful, furious herald racing towards you, and you dodging and catching their assault:

https://imgur.com/GFzew9U

https://imgur.com/Aqu5uqc


Originally posted by h1a8
You are an idiot. I stated that I'm arguing Sentry at his best as a side argument. Not the thread title. You can continue to argue that version of Sentry against me or we can conclude the debate. My original argument is that Sentry at his best will beat Phoenix. That's what I'm arguing, nothing else.

You cant mix and match like that though. Either you use optimal Sentry which would exclude MM Sentry who is an outlier with unverifiable feats as per forum rules. Or if you wish to use MM Sentry then you're entirely limited to his feats from that Dark Avengers period which would exclude all of the speed, reaction time and durability feats which belong to the verified representation of Sentry which the forum agrees on and can be debated with at his optimal levels. WEEP!


Originally posted by h1a8
You are another idiot. I stated something was a low showing because many other showings contradict it. Duh. Mangog dying in the sun is a low showing. The entire set of members on kmc criticized that arc. Where were you?

Nope. Its a low showing because accepting it for what it is means the debates over. Ive presented scans and sound reasoning for why its conclusively not a low showing. You've just typed, cried and given hysterics.


Originally posted by h1a8
Again you lost credibility posting a scan that has nothing to do with Sentry being erased as to trick me. What's wrong with you?

I have zero need to trick you when i can just out debate you

Your easily confused ass misinterpreted a post, popped on a tinfoil hat and started yapping conspiracy theories. When i later quoted the post that you had misinterpreted, and broke it down for you as simply as i could, by that point you realised you were getting eaten up in the debate, and clung on to your nonsense realising that if you cant beat em, get scummy and try and discredit

Fail upon fail.

Until next time....

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This descent was rapid.

Is this really what we've come to?

This is some bottom of the barrel debating.



I read your comments on pressure and i addressed why they like so many others in your arsenal were weak:

Here



and here:



If herald beings have withstood the Sun undamaged, that doesnt make Sentrys confirmed and verified weakness to the sun a low showing. It just means he has a particular weakness to the Sun and the heralds makeup is able to deal with the Sun better.

Marvel never explicitly mentioned the sun was Sentry's weakness lol. Anyway, your example with Mangog was bad. Like I said, many heralds have endured the Sun, yet Mangog can't? Mangog was a peer to Odin and chewed the Destroyer up with ease (same Destroyer who wrecked Gladiator, another being that withstand the sun). I'm pretty sure that Mangog can withstand energy blasts as hot as the core of the sun. That was PIS. So using that example of why the Sun is powerful is BS. You giving your interpretation of what PIS (whether true or not) is not the same as proving your case. There is no such thing as 100% of someone's fight being PIS. If every single fight is PIS then you have to revisit what PIS is. If she had at least 1 fight displaying character to do something (and ability) then we can go with that.
Otherwise, we have to rely on your flawed logic of why you think it is in her character to do something when she never has, given many many opportunities.

You have to display her abilities through feats. Feats. I can say Sentry has the power of a million exploding Suns, but his showings contradict that. Especially the one where he is damaged inside the Sun. Amputated limbs of a Celestial isn't a good feat. Heralds have damaged Celestials armor. It is not indestructible by any means. It's not even comparable to adamantium. And it certainly doesn't prove a character can atomize someone on Sentry's level. You never showed Jean destroying the universe. You never showed her being able to control all the atoms of the universe either. Holding a possible image of a galaxy above her hand doesn't prove any of this. Odin has done similar feats.

You flawed inference is not proving things by feats. Galan has warned me in the Tyrant vs Thanos thread. DarkSaint was trolling and stating that we don't know if Tyrant has any mode of ftl travel since he has no showings of him traveling ftl. I stated beautiful logical reasoning why it would be dumb for Tyrant to not have the ability to travel ftl. He wouldn't be able to affect anything outside the Solar System he's in (for example), and many other good points I've made. He simply wouldn't be relevant nor a threat to the universe or Galactus. I was shot down by Galan stating that without feats then I can't say Tryant can has a mode of travel that's ftl. Even if Tyrant was to ride on the back of one of his robots (who he created) that are capable of ftl travel.

That's how it works. They have to have a feat that logically concludes us to believe that they can do such things. They don't necessarily have to have disintegrated a Sentry level being. Wiping out the universe (not a miniature universe) is sufficient, or there are other feats that are sufficient. What does physical strength have to do with anything? Thor can lift the rock not because he lifted the rock but because he lifted heavier things. You can prove ability by showing an ability that exceeds (and encompasses) that ability. In comics, you can outmaneuver heralds traveling at less than the speed of sound. Spider-man can Captain America has outmaneuvered heralds. Character's arent always using their top speed or perceptions in every scene. Spider-man has dodged lasers and machine gun fire on many occasions yet got struck by speeds far slower than a bullet. It's called fiction inconsistency. You have to have quantifiable feats of Phoenix reactions and perceptions. You can't compare traveling speed to battle speed (where perceptions, reactions, and limb speed plays a large role). Travel speed in itself doesn't prove acceleration. For example, I can reach 1000x the speed of light has long as I continue to speed up (accelerate). Acting first has nothing to do with who has the faster travel speed. It's all about who has the faster perceptions and reactions. MM Sentry has all the abilities of optimal normal Sentry. Superspeed, strength, durability, etc. Yet you posted a scan of MM blowing Sentry up adjacent to the scan where LeFay is erasing Sentry as it was chronological events happening. When I saw the 2nd scan (MM one) I told myself I don't remember Sentry separating into pieces. So I went back to the comic and saw no such thing occurred. Then I looked back at the scan you posted and discovered it was from a different comic where MM blew Sentry up.

Originally posted by h1a8
Marvel never explicitly mentioned the sun was Sentry's weakness lol. Anyway, your example with Mangog was bad. Like I said, many heralds have endured the Sun, yet Mangog can't? Mangog was a peer to Odin and chewed the Destroyer up with ease (same Destroyer who wrecked Gladiator, another being that withstand the sun). I'm pretty sure that Mangog can withstand energy blasts as hot as the core of the sun. That was PIS. So using that example of why the Sun is powerful is BS.

You cannot worm your way out of this. Sentry was incinerated by the sun in Siege in 2009. In 2013's Uncanny Avengers Sentry's vulnerability to the sun was reiterated and it went into detail about how it prevented him from regenerating. From the time that vulnerability was featured and built upon in two different titles, by two different writers in two different story arcs, years apart it became an established canonical fact. Youve lost this point. Moving on.....


Originally posted by h1a8
You giving your interpretation of what PIS (whether true or not) is not the same as proving your case. There is no such thing as 100% of someone's fight being PIS. If every single fight is PIS then you have to revisit what PIS is. If she had at least 1 fight displaying character to do something (and ability) then we can go with that.
Otherwise, we have to rely on your flawed logic of why you think it is in her character to do something when she never has, given many many opportunities.

Im not giving my interpretation of what PIS is. Im basically paraphrasing the forum rules which you are clearly misunderstanding.

She doesnt have to be shown using the ability in battle, she just has to have the ability, the propensity and it has to be a viable tactic. If those factors apply and she doesnt use it when such an ability could easily bring her victory it is certified PIS according to the forums rules. Dont like it? Take your debate to another forum.

She hasnt been given many, many opportunities. She has been the Phoenix TWICE in 40 years.

As i clearly highlighted in one of my previous posts, her "telekinetic godhood" was a journey that was built up through the title culminating in her fulfilling her potential at the end of the story arc. Said abilities were then updated within her character bios as established abilities for her as the Phoenix.

So your argument against it being PIS is redundant as the circumstances didnt allow for their to be many, many opportunities as you claimed without insight.

However propensity has long been established, abilities are documented as canon and its a very viable tactic for her.

Done.

Originally posted by h1a8
You have to display her abilities through feats. Feats. I can say Sentry has the power of a million exploding Suns, but his showings contradict that. Especially the one where he is damaged inside the Sun. Amputated limbs of a Celestial isn't a good feat. Heralds have damaged Celestials armor. It is not indestructible by any means. It's not even comparable to adamantium. And it certainly doesn't prove a character can atomize someone on Sentry's level. You never showed Jean destroying the universe. You never showed her being able to control all the atoms of the universe either. Holding a possible image of a galaxy above her hand doesn't prove any of this. Odin has done similar feats.

Ive displayed feats. Jean destroyed the Here Comes Tomorrow future reality by casually amputating it off 616 with a thought. Something she states she did on panel, something visualised by said reality fading away and something the Handbook went on to confirm is what happened. Ive showed this. If you cannot process and remember all the evidence im presenting then thats a you problem.

I reply to every comment you make and address it. You ignore what you cant counter and quote what you think you can. Maybe if you introduced some integrity into your debating approach and tackled everything and admitted what had left you stumped then you wouldnt be forgetting evidence.

Furthermore in the scans i showed, the Phoenix explicitly told her the universe was wounded because she got distracted from carrying out her Phoenix work and that she needed to heal it in the white hot room:

https://imgur.com/FLicZ7h

She then manifests what we're told is the universe in her palm with the Phoenix referring to how control of all the universes atoms isnt easy even for a White Phoenix:

https://imgur.com/FLicZ7h

The handbook entry is updated from saying she has total telekinetic control of matter to stating Jean can manipulate atomic structures of a universal scale:

During New X-men

https://imgur.com/7gznS6V

After New X-men

https://imgur.com/MduUmvv

Thats conclusive.

To disprove that you would require other official Marvel sources. Your biased opinion to the contrary is insufficient.



Originally posted by h1a8
You flawed inference is not proving things by feats. Galan has warned me in the Tyrant vs Thanos thread. DarkSaint was trolling and stating that we don't know if Tyrant has any mode of ftl travel since he has no showings of him traveling ftl. I stated beautiful logical reasoning why it would be dumb for Tyrant to not have the ability to travel ftl. He wouldn't be able to affect anything outside the Solar System he's in (for example), and many other good points I've made. He simply wouldn't be relevant nor a threat to the universe or Galactus. I was shot down by Galan stating that without feats then I can't say Tryant can has a mode of travel that's ftl. Even if Tyrant was to ride on the back of one of his robots (who he created) that are capable of ftl travel.

Again youre demonstrating a lack of understanding. Galan was right. You didnt have a demonstration of the ability in question. Your argument was pure supposition.

Thats not the case here with me. Do not dare to liken your shit debating practices to my own

Ive shared a demonstration of the ability in question...total telekinetic control of matter.

Ive shown how Molecule Man with the exact same ability but at a vastly lower power level was able to disintegrate Sentry.

Ive then shown Jean has the propensity and as per forum rules ive then referred to this ability as a viable battle tactic given its been demionstrated to be within her repertoire.

What i havent done is referred to an ability thats never been seen on panel and then asserted oh she must be capable of it because shes the Phoenix and she wouldnt be seen as such a big baddie if she couldnt do it?

What the hell am i dealing with?

Originally posted by h1a8
That's how it works. They have to have a feat that logically concludes us to believe that they can do such things. They don't necessarily have to have disintegrated a Sentry level being. Wiping out the universe (not a miniature universe) is sufficient, or there are other feats that are sufficient. What does physical strength have to do with anything? Thor can lift the rock not because he lifted the rock but because he lifted heavier things. You can prove ability by showing an ability that exceeds (and encompasses) that ability.

By this point, the fact that you didnt get my Rogue/Thor example shouldnt surprise me

At the end of the day on panel Jean has faded a universe into non existence by amputating it from the multiversal tree and displayed total telekinetic control of the atoms of an entire universe.

The version of Molecule Man in question possessed control over molecules, the same ability as Jean but at a significantly smaller scale and yet was able to wipe out Sentry multiple times on panel through this same ability, the manipulation of molecules.

It is therefore entirely reasonable, logical and permissible as far as the forum is concerned to assert that Jean could disintegrate Sentry. To argue otherwise is nonsensical and pride based obtrusion.

Referring to the Rogue example again, its the equivalent of Rogue lifting a Rogue through pure physical strength, but you arguing that Thor couldnt do so because he hasnt been shown on panel lifting that exact same rock, despite him displaying superior physical strength in other activities.

If you do not understand how that example relates to your nonsense then you are a lost cause

Originally posted by h1a8
In comics, you can outmaneuver heralds traveling at less than the speed of sound. Spider-man can Captain America has outmaneuvered heralds. Character's arent always using their top speed or perceptions in every scene. Spider-man has dodged lasers and machine gun fire on many occasions yet got struck by speeds far slower than a bullet. It's called fiction inconsistency. You have to have quantifiable feats of Phoenix reactions and perceptions. You can't compare traveling speed to battle speed (where perceptions, reactions, and limb speed plays a large role). Travel speed in itself doesn't prove acceleration. For example, I can reach 1000x the speed of light has long as I continue to speed up (accelerate). Acting first has nothing to do with who has the faster travel speed. It's all about who has the faster perceptions and reactions.

Whilst fighting speed can vary, reaction time isnt something thats switched on or off. There are no indications given that Firelords were hampered in any fashion. Multiple times in her battle with Firelord she caught him unawares before he could dodge which speaks for the speed shes able to fight at.


https://imgur.com/4IoDQTR

https://imgur.com/Bn1Ipuc

https://imgur.com/kTF8fjO

Plus given his reference to how powerful her opening strike was, its reasonable to assert that he wouldve been trying to avoid getting hit by subsequent strikes. He failed....

Furthermore to dodge and catch a furious speeding herald, it requires exponentially greater reaction time than catching a 1800mph bullet as per a scan you have yet to provide

https://imgur.com/GFzew9U

https://imgur.com/Aqu5uqc

Sentry having reaction times faster than a Phoenix host is not something you can prove. This line of argument is a dead-end, so drop the point and focus on the head on collision and the resultant outcome

Originally posted by h1a8
MM Sentry has all the abilities of optimal normal Sentry. Superspeed, strength, durability, etc.

You do not get to make up your own rules within this forum. MM Sentry is an outlier and not allowed to be regarded as an accurate reflection of Sentrys standard repertoire of abilities. He therefore is exempt from being the "optimal character" used in versus matches as his abilities would fall on the unusually powered up and unverifiable category.

So if you wish to use this version of the character then it is in isolation with the abilities only demonstrated within the Dark Avengers title. You cant mix, match, have your cake and eat it to. Integrity matters. Work on that.


Originally posted by h1a8
Yet you posted a scan of MM blowing Sentry up adjacent to the scan where LeFay is erasing Sentry as it was chronological events happening. When I saw the 2nd scan (MM one) I told myself I don't remember Sentry separating into pieces. So I went back to the comic and saw no such thing occurred. Then I looked back at the scan you posted and discovered it was from a different comic where MM blew Sentry up.

You began talking about how Sentry regenerated from being erased from existence (something i would later highlight to be a huge misinterpretation/poor recollection on your part)

I asked multiple times which was the instance you were regarding as him being erased from existence? You ignored this question multiple times.

I then made a post showing an example of what being erased from existence was and then said these do not show Sentry being erased from existence and shared links to images of both the Morgan Le Fay attack and the MM attacks as by that point you had still not clarified which one you thought demonstrated an existence erasure.

You in turn were off with the fairies and somehow chose to interpret that as me saying they were from the same comic and i was misrepresenting evidence.

When i broke it down for you and explained just like i've done now you chose to hold on to your nonsense.

Im doing very well here, i demonstrably do not need to lean on trickery to out debate you

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
By this point, the fact that you didnt get my Rogue/Thor example shouldnt surprise me

At the end of the day on panel Jean has faded a universe into non existence by amputating it from the multiversal tree and displayed total telekinetic control of the atoms of an entire universe.

The version of Molecule Man in question possessed control over molecules, the same ability as Jean but at a significantly smaller scale and yet was able to wipe out Sentry multiple times on panel through this same ability, the manipulation of molecules.

It is therefore entirely reasonable, logical and permissible as far as the forum is concernd to assert that Jean could disintegrate Sentry. To argue otherwise is nonsensical and pride based obtrusion.

Referring to the Rogue example again, its the equivalent of Rogue lifting a Rogue through pure physical strength, but you arguing that Thor couldnt do so because he hasnt been shown on panel lifting that exact same rock, despite him displaying superior physical strength in other activities.

If you do not understand how that example relates to your nonsense then you are a lost cause



Whilst fighting speed can vary, reaction time isnt something thats switched on or off. There are no indications given that Firelords were hampered in any fashion. Multiple times in her battle with Firelord she caught him unawares before he could dodge which speaks for the speed shes able to fight at.


https://imgur.com/4IoDQTR

https://imgur.com/Bn1Ipuc

https://imgur.com/kTF8fjO

Plus given his reference to how powerful her opening strike was, its reasonable to assert that he wouldve been trying to avoid getting hit by subsequent strikes. He failed....

Furthermore to dodge and catch a furious speeding herald, it requires exponentially greater reaction time than catching a 1800mph bullet as per a scan you have yet to provide

https://imgur.com/GFzew9U

https://imgur.com/Aqu5uqc

Sentry having reaction times faster than a Phoenix host is not something you can prove. This line of argument is a dead-end, so drop the point and focus on the head on collision and the resultant outcome



You do not get to make up your own rules within this forum. MM Sentry is an outlier and not allowed to be regarded as an accurate reflection of Sentrys standard repertoire of abilities. He therefore is exempt from being the "optimal character" used in versus matches as his abilities would fall on the unusually powered up and unverifiable category.

So if you wish to use this version of the character then it is in isolation with the abilities only demonstrated within the Dark Avengers title. You cant mix, match, have your cake and eat it to. Integrity matters. Work on that.




You began talking about how Sentry regenerated from being erased from existence (something i would later highlight to be a huge misinterpretation/poor recollection on your part)

I asked multiple times which was the instance you were regarding as him being erased from existence? You ignored this question multiple times.

I then made a post showing an example of what being erased from existence was and then said these do not show Sentry being erased from existence and shared links to images of both the Morgan Le Fay attack and the MM attacks as by that point you had still not clarified which one you thought demonstrated an existence erasure.

You in turn were off with the fairies and somehow chose to interpret that as me saying they were from the same comic and i was misrepresenting evidence.

When i broke it down for you and explained just like i've done now you chose to hold on to your nonsense.

Im doing very well here, i demonstrably do not need to lean on trickery to out debate you

Prove that Jean displayed control over every atom of a particular universe.
Prove that she is able to do the same to the 616 universe.
All of her fights and showings says otherwise.

I gave a quantifiable feat for Sentry proving his reaction, perception, and acceleration speed. You have yet to post anything that proves she has comparable or above speed. Feats against characters isn't proof for the listed reasons I gave.

Even if Phoenix can disintegrate Sentry (she can't) then he would reform.
Even if she can erase him (she can't) then he would come back.

Sentry disintegrates Phoenix before she acts. End of argument.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm


Im really enjoying where Ewings taken the Marvel cosmology. I thought making the King in Blacks counterparts to The Beyonders was inspired.

My worry is August's G.O.D.S title from Jonathan Hickman. This event is supposedly a revision and revitalization of the Marvel cosmology as well. I love Hickmans work, but if its going to upend everything Ewing did so well in Ultimates, Defenders and Venom, im not really here for it confused I should think Hickman would not shred apart what Ewing established because a lot of what Ewing is doing honors Hickman's work.

Originally posted by h1a8
Prove that Jean displayed control over every atom of a particular universe.
Prove that she is able to do the same to the 616 universe.
All of her fights and showings says otherwise.

I gave a quantifiable feat for Sentry proving his reaction, perception, and acceleration speed. You have yet to post anything that proves she has comparable or above speed. Feats against characters isn't proof for the listed reasons I gave.

Even if Phoenix can disintegrate Sentry (she can't) then he would reform.
Even if she can erase him (she can't) then he would come back.

Sentry disintegrates Phoenix before she acts. End of argument.


I dont know whether theres a learning need, a literacy problem or a visual impairment, but this has all been addressed quite conclusively.

All of your points have been handled, all of your wacky perspectives debunked. All along, I've quoted every last bit of your nonsense to demonstrate a clear take down of each and every point youve brought to the table.

You repeatedly fail to address large chunks of my posts, hide that by not quoting me and then phone in a reply like this. Repetition of your same old waffle i've already relegated to garbage.


Youve given nothing but words and more words. Not a damn scan in sight.

This limp, half baked response tells us all you know that in your heart of hearts this was long over days ago

The poll says it all.

It was an admirable attempt. Rest easy lil bro crutch

Originally posted by ODG
I should think Hickman would not shred apart what Ewing established because a lot of what Ewing is doing honors Hickman's work.

In terms of the cosmology? Ive probably overlooked that then. But lets hope you're right. I love what Ewings established so hopefully G.O.D.S builds on it in a complementary way.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
In terms of the cosmology? Ive probably overlooked that then. But lets hope you're right. I love what Ewings established so hopefully G.O.D.S builds on it in a complementary way.

Prove that Jean displayed control over every atom of a particular universe.
You never proved this. Do you understand the difference between proof and speculation?

Prove that she is able to do the same to the 616 universe.
You never proved this.

All of her fights and showings says otherwise.

I gave a quantifiable feat for Sentry proving his reaction, perception, and acceleration speed. Here's the scan:
https://sta.sh/0176w3lextmm

You have yet to post anything that proves she has comparable or above speed. Feats against characters isn't proof for the listed reasons I gave. Prove that she can perceive things in the same time span. Prove that she can react and move in the same time span, starting from rest.

Now do the math. Sentry travels about 10ft in the time it takes a 9mm bullet to travel about 2 inches. If Sentry started from rest and accelerated then what's his average acceleration? Use that average acceleration and determine how long will it take him to reach light speed.

Even if Phoenix can disintegrate Sentry (she can't) then he would reform.
Even if she can erase him (she can't) then he would come back.

Sentry disintegrates Phoenix before she acts. Or he knocks her out at the start of the fight (with the half the strength required to stop Exitar's descent.). End of argument.

Not that's it's relevant anymore, but here's Sentry entering gamma lava:
https://imgur.com/oUzYAcd

Originally posted by h1a8
Prove that Jean displayed control over every atom of a particular universe.
You never proved this. Do you understand the difference between proof and speculation?

Prove that she is able to do the same to the 616 universe.
You never proved this.

This is exactly what I did. She amputated Here Comes Tomorrow off of 616 and materialized 616 in her palm controlling all of its atoms as stated by the Phoenix. Her ability to control all a universes atomic structure then being referenced in her bio as an update following the feat as i showed quite conclusively. If you didn't understand the scan, or how it was proven then come with some humility and ask. Dont make out like I've avoided the question and not done a thing.

My points are shown on panel and verified by handbook. Youre being obstructive as youre a very, very sore. Thats tough shit

Disprove me with some canonical evidence or accept your L

I repeat. Disprove me with canonical evidence that shows that following achieving White Phoenix status, Jean actually cant manipulate atomic structures on a universal scale?

Waiting patiently.....

Originally posted by h1a8
All of her fights and showings says otherwise.

Already handled this here:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm


She hasnt been given many, many opportunities. She has been the Phoenix TWICE in 40 years.

As i clearly highlighted in one of my previous posts, her "telekinetic godhood" was a journey that was built up through the title culminating in her fulfilling her potential at the end of the story arc. Said abilities were then updated within her character bios as established abilities for her as the Phoenix.

So your argument against it being PIS is redundant as the circumstances didnt allow for their to be many, many opportunities as you claimed without insight.

However propensity has long been established, abilities are documented as canon and its a very viable tactic for her.

Done.





All her fights and showings say otherwise? What fights has she had as the White Phoenix for your comment to actually be factual and relevant?

She hasnt. Yet she has multiple high level and very transferrable feats during this period, which were then verified by the handbook cementing them in canon and making them entirely accessible when i highlight them as viable strategies within a forum battle such as this one.

I have shared the forum rules with you multiple times. Stop yapping and get to reading and comprehending.

You will deal


Originally posted by h1a8
I gave a quantifiable feat for Sentry proving his reaction, perception, and acceleration speed. Here's the scan:
https://sta.sh/0176w3lextmm

You have yet to post anything that proves she has comparable or above speed. Feats against characters isn't proof for the listed reasons I gave. Prove that she can perceive things in the same time span. Prove that she can react and move in the same time span, starting from rest.

Youve posted 1 scan this whole thread after days of pressure from me and youre having the audacity to talk about how i havent proven anything?

Lets take apart your evidence...

There are far too many variables for you to assert with any accuracy how great Sentrys bullet catching feat is. Bullet speed depends both on the type of gun and the bullet fired.

That handgun bullet couldve been travelling anywhere from 450 miles per hour to 1800 miles per hour. Its inconclusive. Yet you want to present your unquantifiable feat as some conclusive and accurately quantified showing (which it isnt) and yet rubbish mine which involves beings with exponentially greater movement speeds than said bullet. You cant do that.

Know whats a good 50% faster than the fastest handgun bullets?

A sniper bullet!

https://imgur.com/ZBWzYnj

What makes this superior to Sentrys feat is The Void telegraphed his intention to use the handgun with everything from the cliche villanous monologue to being in a firing position, so Sentry was primed and ready to intercept the 50% slower (at least) handgun bullet:

https://imgur.com/Alk8xKb

https://imgur.com/6wyyYrY

Jean however was completely unaware of the specifics of the attack and had to respond on the fly, showing immense sensory processing and reaction ability in being able to visually process the much higher velocity sniper bullet as it flew past her head and catch it inches from the Professors head as it travelled at near 3000 mph.


And even if you continue to doubt a Phoenix hosts reaction times are as fast as Sentrys (untrue) you cannot doubt that they remain superhuman, which means that the 0.5km starting distance between the characters (as per forum rules) is more than enough for a host to either erect a shield or bolster their bodies durability in time with their superhuman reaction times. So this is a redundant line of argument like all the rest.

Originally posted by h1a8
Even if Phoenix can disintegrate Sentry (she can't) then he would reform.
Even if she can erase him (she can't) then he would come back.

Sentry disintegrates Phoenix before she acts. Or he knocks her out at the start of the fight. End of argument.

If Molecule Man can disintegrate Sentry via molecular manipulation, then the vastly more powerful White Phoenix can disintegrate him via molecular manipulation to.

As discussed above you have zero conclusive evidence to show that Sentrys reaction time is so superior to a Phoenix hosts (its not) that he can cover the 0.5km ahead of their superhuman reaction time allowing for the erection of a shield or bolstering of their physicality to be able to laugh off his attacks.

Sentry doesnt reappear immediately via complete disintegration as we saw repeatedly in the comics, therefore as per forum rules the match would be over. Thems the breaks

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This is exactly what I did. She amputated Here Comes Tomorrow off of 616 and materialized 616 in her palm controlling all of its atoms Oh, ffs. confused

Originally posted by ODG
Oh, ffs. confused

I remember our old debate from years back. Fun times

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This is exactly what I did. She amputated Here Comes Tomorrow off of 616 and materialized 616 in her palm controlling all of its atoms as stated by the Phoenix. Her ability to control all a universes atomic structure then being referenced in her bio as an update following the feat as i showed quite conclusively. If you didn't understand the scan, or how it was proven then come with some humility and ask. Dont make out like I've avoided the question and not done a thing.


Amputated Here Comes Tomorrow off 616 has no meaning to me. What does that mean exactly?

I never seen her materialize 616 in her palm and I certainly never seen her controlling all of it's atoms. Are you confusing that feat with her showing a possible image of a galaxy in her hand? Or an image of a universe? I know White Phoenix severed a branch off the timeline (alternate future). But that's not the same as controlling every atom in the 616 universe. You can do that just by time travel and changing things. If Phoenix can control every atom in the 616 universe then it would be apparent from her fights. She obviously would control her opponents, instead of blast them.


Disprove you? Your claim is invalid without proof. No need to disprove anything. Handbooks reference comics, not the other way around. We use on panel feats to prove ability. Phoenix has had many fights before. Not just Jean Grey but other characters who possessed the power of the Phoenix. Like I said, 100% of someone's fights can't be PIS when it comes to what a character would choose to do. That literally makes no sense. So White Phoenix huh and not Phoenix? So you arguing White Phoenix? Well my points remain the same.

1. It was a semiautomatic handgun cambered in 9mm (most likely). The muzzle velocity is over 1000fps (1200fps on average). No semi-automatic round travels 450mph. That's silly.

2. That wasn't a typical bullet. Looks like some type of device that was shot out. The speed is unknown. Plus it traveled a much longer distance (more time elasped). And what comic is that from? Professor X not in a wheel chair?

3. According to Sentry's feat, he can cover 0.5km in 0.002 seconds if assuming the bullet was traveling at 1000fps (and not the average 1200fps). Sentry doesn't even have to knock her out. He can just act first and disintegrate her, killing her instantly.

I disagree that White Phoenix is more powerful than MM in the sense of being able to disintegrate very durable beings such as Sentry. You need feats to prove such. This is Sentry at his best. He will always reform instantly. Remember that's the character I'm debating.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I remember our old debate from years back. Fun times https://thumbs.gfycat.com/OptimisticFluidBudgie-size_restricted.gif

Originally posted by h1a8
Amputated Here Comes Tomorrow off 616 has no meaning to me. What does that mean exactly?

Exactly what it means in plain English, she cut off the future reality of Here Comes Tomorrow, off of the main 616 reality. You dont have to understand the ins and outs of comic book science, you just have to accept what is established as canonical fact. Its that simple

Originally posted by h1a8
I never seen her materialize 616 in her palm and I certainly never seen her controlling all of it's atoms. Are you confusing that feat with her showing a possible image of a galaxy in her hand? Or an image of a universe? I know White Phoenix severed a branch off the timeline (alternate future). But that's not the same as controlling every atom in the 616 universe. You can do that just by time travel and changing things. If Phoenix can control every atom in the 616 universe then it would be apparent from her fights. She obviously would control her opponents, instead of blast them.

So here you state "I know White Phoenix severed a branch off the timeline (alternate future)" but the beginning post you start by saying "Amputated Here Comes Tomorrow off 616 has no meaning to me. What does that mean exactly?"

Are you ok?

As for the rest of the waffle i've already addressed this. You can disagree with the feat all you want. You can think it isnt artistically represented clear enough to your liking and thats fine, but what you cannot do is deny a canonical feat.

The White Hot Room is in a higher dimension, outside of all time and space which means denizens of such a dimension would perceive lower dimensions on a different scale.

In higher dimensional space, whilst matter still has the same properties, the comparative scale of things is entirely different:

https://imgur.com/uPTTAs6

https://imgur.com/iAUX6lg

Notice how outside of reality, Eternity becomes palm sized. Comparative scale shifts.

Reed Richards experienced the same:

https://imgur.com/fHuLrCB

https://imgur.com/gbrLsar

From a higher dimension, the star appeared smaller to Reed enabling him to get a macro view of it and more easily carry out "surgery" than if he was in the same dimension (where he would be a speck next to a star and need to operate monumentally sized equipment) however the star was still very much a star and not an image or visualization.

One of the roles of the Phoenix Force is to maintain the multiverse it spawned and keep it healthy:

https://imgur.com/uYDkLgK

It is a "healing force for universes"

As shown in the recent Defenders Beyond. But the idea of the Phoenix healing universes goes back decades with it disinfecting a plague that was killing Eternity, before then cauterizing his wound thereby healing him:

https://imgur.com/BJ6Yed2

https://imgur.com/12THWSj

New X-men however reiterated this concept of the Phoenix being a doctor for universes in the modern era.

Sublime was a sentient bacterial colony dedicated to becoming the dominant life form in reality and was willing to subjugate other life forms and stagnate evolution to retain that dominance:

https://imgur.com/HH3aehO

https://imgur.com/CDYsfex

It eventually got hold of Jeans genetic material and through this gave itself access to the Phoenix Force and its "telekinetic godhood", meaning it could carry out its agenda on a cosmic scale:

https://imgur.com/jW60S8T

The Phoenix Force is dedicated to evolution:

https://imgur.com/rxfTIUj

https://imgur.com/uVB6Oru

As evolution perpetuates the creation cycle, so it had to intervene.

Jean eventually performed surgery on the universe, extracting Sublime from reality:

https://imgur.com/XjqYN4O

https://imgur.com/gmYWUFf

"A coordinated disinfection."

And pondered to herself if...."Surgery complete?"

What she found however was that the Sublime infection had done so much damage to reality that she coudnt simply just remove the bacterial colony (represented as the glowing green orb) she had to amputate that whole future off the multiversal "body" which we see represented by the fading out of the future reality:

https://imgur.com/5oovkFC

https://imgur.com/B3rPbU6


So here Morrison used metaphors and painted the universe as a patient and the Phoenix as a doctor. A doctor who had to amputate a limb (the Here Comes Tomorrow future) in order to save the patent.

Jean asks the Phoenix in the scan above if Sublime is the inevitable future "Is this the future?"

The Phoenix gives her hope by basically saying, not necessarily this is just how things currently stand "This is now" and then the Phoenix goes on to explain that instead of carrying out her Phoenix work and disinfecting reality from Sublime at an earlier stage (616 / the present) she let herself get distracted with her human life and this almost killed the universe. "You lost concentration. Became emotionally engaged. Shock almost killed it. Patient die unless internal heart damage repaired. "

We saw this here:

https://imgur.com/rmWM4aQ

Jean brushed off the Phoenixes warnings in the 616 present to focus on her marital struggles. This exacerbated the Sublime issue leading it to get worse behind the scenes.

Going back to the previous Here Comes Tomorrow scene, Jean laments that her friends dont deserve Sublime as a future. The Phoenix tells her its not over yet and to go to the hospital to treat the wounded patient.

https://imgur.com/5oovkFC

The Phoenix then clarifies that the hospital in question is the White Hot Room accessed in the M'kraan crystal and that she must go to said "hospital" to heal the patients wound, by growing it a better future:

https://imgur.com/OcNqDWe

So again. Morrison is painting the Phoenix Force as multiversal medicine, the Phoenix hosts as doctors of the universe.

And what better place for a doctor to treat a patient than a hospital. Which we're told is the White Hot Room.

Within the "hospital" i.e the higher dimensional plane inside the crystal, Jean materialises what we're told explicitly is the badly wounded universe:

https://imgur.com/pfqD6pU

She materialized it within "the hospital" presumably because it was a safer, more effective space to treat "the patient." Jeans feat involved the telekinetic control of all of the universes atoms.

Not a visualization. Its stated to be the wounded universe. So zero justification or evidence for calling it or treating it as anything but that when its established in canon that scales are different when viewing things from higher dimensions and following this feat, Jeans handbook bio went from this:

https://imgur.com/7gznS6V

to this:

https://imgur.com/MduUmvv

Handbooks reflect the canon of comics. So if you had any doubt about how to interpret that scene, well the handbooks just told you the official company line on that scene which is as Phoenix, Jean Grey can manipulate universal scale atomic structures.

And what was this badly wounded universe?

https://imgur.com/GpMb3gK

616

In the scene above, you see Jean peering into the universe in her hand hearing events from 616:

"Every diamond has its flaw" - New X-men 119

https://imgur.com/AwuCFCQ

"Gus was a good dog." - New X-men 123

https://imgur.com/VmBUui5

"Are these words from the future?" - New X-men 128

https://imgur.com/v2fTOak

Jean then telepathically reaches into the universe in her palm and nudges Scott to let go of his anguish over her death, move forward with Emma and continue with the School.


As presented in the comics and as verified by the Handbooks

https://imgur.com/NLy5H8C

https://imgur.com/hYE2YXA

So the comic depicts Jean as a healer of universes, she disinfected reality from Sublime to safeguard evolution and thus the creation cycle, the damage was too severe so she had to amputate that dystopian future off 616 as opposed to just going straight to altering events as that wouldve simply caused a divergent reality and left Sublime in reality with the power of the Phoenix. She then grew a new future to heal the wound she had caused by altering events in the 616 present to ensure Here Comes Tomorrow never came to pass.

Originally posted by h1a8
Disprove you? Your claim is invalid without proof. No need to disprove anything. Handbooks reference comics, not the other way around. We use on panel feats to prove ability.

Of course i have. Its stated that Phoenix amputated the future and depicted that she materialised what we're told is a wounded universe thats later revealed to be 616.

This point is then verified by the handbooks. You keep weirdly and nonsensically saying handbooks reference the comics and the other way around as if im saying the comics are secondary to Handbooks. What im saying is that with regards to the feats ive mentioned that are depicted in the comics, my take on what said scenes represent is then officially verified by the Handbooks.

You might not be satisfied by the way the feats are represented but thats entirely irrelevant in the face of the Handbooks confirming the line to take when viewing those scenes.

Unless you have evidence your opinion to the contrary is useless, ineffective and insufficient. Come with some evidence or you've lost this point.

Originally posted by h1a8
Phoenix has had many fights before. Not just Jean Grey but other characters who possessed the power of the Phoenix. Like I said, 100% of someone's fights can't be PIS when it comes to what a character would choose to do. That literally makes no sense.

So White Phoenix huh and not Phoenix? So you arguing White Phoenix? Well my points remain the same.

This comment is what makes zero sense. How can you join all Phoenixes together to discuss PIS when theyre all different individuals? You can lump them together to discuss basic powerset which is standard amongst them all. What differs is propensity and power level. Jean being the most powerful.

This thread just stated Phoenix. So ive been debating in terms of the optimum host Jean. The Phoenix Force would be overkill.


Originally posted by h1a8
1. It was a semiautomatic handgun cambered in 9mm (most likely). The muzzle velocity is over 1000fps (1200fps on average). No semi-automatic round travels 450mph. That's silly.

2. That wasn't a typical bullet. Looks like some type of device that was shot out. The speed is unknown. Plus it traveled a much longer distance (more time elasped). And what comic is that from? Professor X not in a wheel chair?

3. According to Sentry's feat, he can cover 0.5km in 0.002 seconds if assuming the bullet was traveling at 1000fps (and not the average 1200fps). Sentry doesn't even have to knock her out. He can just act first and disintegrate her, killing her instantly.

You do not know the specifics of the handgun or calibre to be making such assertions. You cant state your baseless calculations are fact whilst simultaneously turning around and telling me the speed of the sniper gun Jean reacted to is unknown and dismiss the feat. Have some integrity. Both sides are unknown. Accept that.

All you can assert from the two scenes in question, is that both characters have substantial superhuman reaction speed with zero way of establishing accurate figures to quantify who has greater reaction times based on these two feats. You can think Sentrys faster all you want, but without a standard point of comparison we just cant tell conclusively, therefore its a moot point. Reiterating your guesstimates in response to this will not change things. Theres no way of doing an accurate comparison based on the evidence presented.

Focus on the rest of your shaky argument.

Originally posted by h1a8
I disagree that White Phoenix is more powerful than MM in the sense of being able to disintegrate very durable beings such as Sentry. You need feats to prove such. This is Sentry at his best. He will always reform instantly. Remember that's the character I'm debating.

You can disagree all you want, but without proof that Dark Avengers MM had universal scale molecular manipulation abilities your contrary opinion is utterly irrelevant.

Sentry at his best is based on best showings for his powers. He has never regenerated instantly from complete disintegration. It would therefore be considered a loss.

Originally posted by ODG
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/OptimisticFluidBudgie-size_restricted.gif

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Exactly what it means in plain English, she cut off the future reality of Here Comes Tomorrow, off of the main 616 reality. You dont have to understand the ins and outs of comic book science, you just have to accept what is established as canonical fact. Its that simple



So here you state "I know White Phoenix severed a branch off the timeline (alternate future)" but the beginning post you start by saying "Amputated Here Comes Tomorrow off 616 has no meaning to me. What does that mean exactly?"

Are you ok?

As for the rest of the waffle i've already addressed this. You can disagree with the feat all you want. You can think it isnt artistically represented clear enough to your liking and thats fine, but what you cannot do is deny a canonical feat.

The White Hot Room is in a higher dimension, outside of all time and space which means denizens of such a dimension would perceive lower dimensions on a different scale.

In higher dimensional space, whilst matter still has the same properties, the comparative scale of things is entirely different:

https://imgur.com/uPTTAs6

https://imgur.com/iAUX6lg

Notice how outside of reality, Eternity becomes palm sized. Comparative scale shifts.

Reed Richards experienced the same:

https://imgur.com/fHuLrCB

https://imgur.com/gbrLsar

From a higher dimension, the star appeared smaller to Reed enabling him to get a macro view of it and more easily carry out "surgery" than if he was in the same dimension (where he would be a speck next to a star and need to operate monumentally sized equipment) however the star was still very much a star and not an image or visualization.

One of the roles of the Phoenix Force is to maintain the multiverse it spawned and keep it healthy:

https://imgur.com/uYDkLgK

It is a "healing force for universes"

As shown in the recent Defenders Beyond. But the idea of the Phoenix healing universes goes back decades with it disinfecting a plague that was killing Eternity, before then cauterizing his wound thereby healing him:

https://imgur.com/BJ6Yed2

https://imgur.com/12THWSj

New X-men however reiterated this concept of the Phoenix being a doctor for universes in the modern era.

Sublime was a sentient bacterial colony dedicated to becoming the dominant life form in reality and was willing to subjugate other life forms and stagnate evolution to retain that dominance:

https://imgur.com/HH3aehO

https://imgur.com/CDYsfex

It eventually got hold of Jeans genetic material and through this gave itself access to the Phoenix Force and its "telekinetic godhood", meaning it could carry out its agenda on a cosmic scale:

https://imgur.com/jW60S8T

The Phoenix Force is dedicated to evolution:

https://imgur.com/rxfTIUj

https://imgur.com/uVB6Oru

As evolution perpetuates the creation cycle, so it had to intervene.

Jean eventually performed surgery on the universe, extracting Sublime from reality:

https://imgur.com/XjqYN4O

https://imgur.com/gmYWUFf

"A coordinated disinfection."

And pondered to herself if...."Surgery complete?"

What she found however was that the Sublime infection had done so much damage to reality that she coudnt simply just remove the bacterial colony (represented as the glowing green orb) she had to amputate that whole future off the multiversal "body" which we see represented by the fading out of the future reality:

https://imgur.com/5oovkFC

https://imgur.com/B3rPbU6


So here Morrison used metaphors and painted the universe as a patient and the Phoenix as a doctor. A doctor who had to amputate a limb (the Here Comes Tomorrow future) in order to save the patent.

Jean asks the Phoenix in the scan above if Sublime is the inevitable future "Is this the future?"

The Phoenix gives her hope by basically saying, not necessarily this is just how things currently stand "This is now" and then the Phoenix goes on to explain that instead of carrying out her Phoenix work and disinfecting reality from Sublime at an earlier stage (616 / the present) she let herself get distracted with her human life and this almost killed the universe. "You lost concentration. Became emotionally engaged. Shock almost killed it. Patient die unless internal heart damage repaired. "

We saw this here:

https://imgur.com/rmWM4aQ

Jean brushed off the Phoenixes warnings in the 616 present to focus on her marital struggles. This exacerbated the Sublime issue leading it to get worse behind the scenes.

Going back to the previous Here Comes Tomorrow scene, Jean laments that her friends dont deserve Sublime as a future. The Phoenix tells her its not over yet and to go to the hospital to treat the wounded patient.

https://imgur.com/5oovkFC

The Phoenix then clarifies that the hospital in question is the White Hot Room accessed in the M'kraan crystal and that she must go to said "hospital" to heal the patients wound, by growing it a better future:

https://imgur.com/OcNqDWe

So again. Morrison is painting the Phoenix Force as multiversal medicine, the Phoenix hosts as doctors of the universe.

You are nothing but a scam artist. You can't debate at all.
You present faulty conclusions and speculations as canon fact when it's really your own flawed viewpoint (or deception). I don't want to nitpick everything you posted because all of it is wrong. That would take all day. Just keep your argument simple.

In summary, what feats by Phoenix lead you to believe she can atomize Sentry instantly?
What feats lead you to believe she won't get atomized or koed herself at the start of the fight (he will act before her)?

Speculation that arise from faulty reasoning of narration is NOT FEATS. All of her showings contradict your made up version of Phoenix.

Your greatest trick is to make up a bogus claim and then post a scan below like it proves the claim. None of your scans prove your initial claims. You constantly use faulty reasoning and deception and hide it with stating words like canon fact. You are a BS artist. Purely simple. Anyone with a brain can see that.

You have to step up your game if you want to deceive me.

Again my points is
Prove (through feats) that she can atomize someone of Sentry's durability instantly.
Prove that she won't be atomize by Sentry, or knocked out at the start of the bell.

Originally posted by h1a8
You are nothing but a scam artist. You can't debate at all.
You present faulty conclusions and speculations as canon fact when it's really your own flawed viewpoint (or deception). I don't want to nitpick everything you posted because all of it is wrong. That would take all day. Just keep your argument simple.

In summary, what feats by Phoenix lead you to believe she can atomize Sentry instantly?
What feats lead you to believe she won't get atomized or koed herself at the start of the fight (he will act before her)?

Speculation that arise from faulty reasoning of narration is NOT FEATS. All of her showings contradict your made up version of Phoenix.

Your greatest trick is to make up a bogus claim and then post a scan below like it proves the claim. None of your scans prove your initial claims. You constantly use faulty reasoning and deception and hide it with stating words like canon fact. You are a BS artist. Purely simple. Anyone with a brain can see that.

You have to step up your game if you want to deceive me.

Again my points is
Prove (through feats) that she can atomize someone of Sentry's durability instantly.
Prove that she won't be atomize by Sentry, or knocked out at the start of the bell.

This post is giving prepubescent hysterics.

I have posted feats. The issue is you are playing on the purple prose used in said scenes to try and deny them.

Unfortunately for you, the Handbooks verified the take i have presented making it undisputable. WEEP!

Jean Grey as a Phoenix has total telekinetic control of atomic structures up to a universal level. This was depicted in her materializing 616 in the M'Kraan crystal so she could heal it.

Ahead of that Jean Grey amputated the Here Comes Tomorrow reality from existence with a thought.

Both of these feats were artistically depicted and mentioned. Them not being presented in a way to your liking is the toughest of shit

The Handbooks in referencing said scenes give Marvels official line on what happened. That is conclusive evidence.

Such a level of matter manipulation is exponentially greater than Dark Avengers Molecule Man displayed and yet he was easily capable of turning Sentry to dust. Its that simple.

You keep yapping about prove this, prove that when your entire argument is supposition. Hold yourself to the same standards you try and impose.

Me prove Jean could attack before Sentry does? You have yet to prove that he could attack before she could. There is no way of quantifying Sentrys reaction times vs Jeans as Phoenix unless they fight or theres some common point of comparison. A point i literally addressed in my last post.

Youve exhausted your points and provided 1 scan this whole thread.

Unless you have any new evidence to provide youve lost this.

No hard feelings

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This post is giving prepubescent hysterics.

I have posted feats. The issue is you are playing on the purple prose used in said scenes to try and deny them.

Unfortunately for you, the Handbooks verified the take i have presented making it undisputable. WEEP!

Jean Grey as a Phoenix has total telekinetic control of atomic structures up to a universal level. This was depicted in her materializing 616 in the M'Kraan crystal so she could heal it.

Ahead of that Jean Grey amputated the Here Comes Tomorrow reality from existence with a thought.

Both of these feats were artistically depicted and mentioned. Them not being presented in a way to your liking is the toughest of shit

The Handbooks in referencing said scenes give Marvels official line on what happened. That is conclusive evidence.

Such a level of matter manipulation is exponentially greater than Dark Avengers Molecule Man displayed and yet he was easily capable of turning Sentry to dust. Its that simple.

You keep yapping about prove this, prove that when your entire argument is supposition. Hold yourself to the same standards you try and impose.

Me prove Jean could attack before Sentry does? You have yet to prove that he could attack before she could. There is no way of quantifying Sentrys reaction times vs Jeans as Phoenix unless they fight or theres some common point of comparison. A point i literally addressed in my last post.

Youve exhausted your points and provided 1 scan this whole thread.

Unless you have any new evidence to provide youve lost this.

No hard feelings

Phoenix never displayed total control of all the atoms in the 616 universe. You keep stating it doesn't make it true.

I quantified Sentry's reaction times and acceleration.
You haven't quantified hers. Characters don't get special attributes without proof. Therefore, by feats Sentry is significantly faster and has faster reactions and perceptions.

You didn't prove the main points I gave. Therefore Phoenix loses.

Originally posted by h1a8
Phoenix never displayed total control of all the atoms in the 616 universe. You keep stating it doesn't make it true.

She did. After severing the Here Comes Tomorrow future off 616, she was told to treat the subsequently badly wounded universe in the M'kraan crystal.

She then materialises said universe within the crystal whilst being said to have total telekinetic control of all of its atoms.

Your only retort was oh its just a visualization and how do you know its 616.

1) I've showed multiple instances within continuity of how the the universe or elements of the universe can shrink in scale, even becoming palm sized when viewed from a higher dimension, yet its still the same universe, with the same properties, you just get a macro view of it.

2) It states its the universe and all of its atoms so you have no on panel justification to say its anything else. Which is the crux of the matter. It being 616 is further highlighted when we are shown past events from 616 stemming from it. A point i have shown. She then applies her power to the universe in her palm and changes Cyclops reaction from this:

https://imgur.com/qhw370c

https://imgur.com/uZpjJTM

https://imgur.com/4Lzf6Sr

to this

https://imgur.com/GpMb3gK

https://imgur.com/xZ21SUX

https://imgur.com/1pw5Tou


Thereby averting the circumstances that caused the Here Comes Tomorrow future she had to amputate.

The handbooks (which reflect and reiterate the canon featured in the comics) verify that it was a universe Jean had in her hand. Not a visualization...the universe:

https://imgur.com/NLy5H8C

and that said universe was 616:

https://imgur.com/hYE2YXA

3)You not being satisfied with how the feat is displayed visually, or it not being flashy enough for you is entirely irrelevant. Shes told to treat the universe in the M'kraan crystal and she materialises what we're told is the universe, whose atoms the Phoenix says she has telekinetic control of. Said feat resulted in her bio being updated to say she has total telekinetic control of atomic structures of a universal scale. Its conclusive. Learn the difference between your preferences and canon. Only the latter counts here.

Originally posted by h1a8
I quantified Sentry's reaction times and acceleration.
You haven't quantified hers. Characters don't get special attributes without proof. Therefore, by feats Sentry is significantly faster and has faster reactions and perceptions.

Nope you performed a guesstimate based on real world figures that favoured Sentry. The key is, the comic didnt quantify Sentrys feat. We dont know the type of gun, or the type of bullet, things which massively affect the speed of the fired shot. All unknowns. You dont get to decide those variables for Marvel then and assert them as fact in a versus debate, whilst turning around and saying I cant quantfy Jeans feat with the sniper gun as that sniper bullet doesnt look normal

Its a sea of unknowns. The comic never gave the information required, to put conclusive numbers down. So in light of that you are in no position to assert that its a canonical fact that Sentry has faster reaction times than Jean as Phoenix. Theyve both displayed an undeterminable degree of superhuman reaction time and theres no common foe theyve both faced or common scenario theyve reacted in for us to draw a comparison and make a determination. So the way to handle this objectively is to remove the proposed strategy of him being able to speedblitz her before she can do anything, because you dont have the canonical proof.


Originally posted by h1a8
You didn't prove the main points I gave. Therefore Phoenix loses.

I did. However you dont take losing well and are therefore being pedantic and obstructive, ignoring explicit canonical evidence, making evidential demands on me whilst providing 1 scan the whole thread and pulling numbers out your booty as a misguided substitute for the 1 bit of evidence you do have not quantifying a damn thing.

The harm you've done to your credibility in this thread is astronomical.

Unless your next reply is the introduction of new evidence (comic book scans specifically) then you will get not a single reply more.

You've had enough of my attention.

I've done what i set out to do. The votes have spoken.

Good day to you

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
She did. After severing the Here Comes Tomorrow future off 616, she was told to treat the subsequently badly wounded universe in the M'kraan crystal.

She then materialises said universe within the crystal whilst being said to have total telekinetic control of all of its atoms.

Your only retort was oh its just a visualization and how do you know its 616.

1) I've showed multiple instances within continuity of how the the universe or elements of the universe can shrink in scale, even becoming palm sized when viewed from a higher dimension, yet its still the same universe, with the same properties, you just get a macro view of it.

2) It states its the universe and all of its atoms so you have no on panel justification to say its anything else. Which is the crux of the matter. It being 616 is further highlighted when we are shown past events from 616 stemming from it. A point i have shown. She then applies her power to the universe in her palm and changes Cyclops reaction from this:

https://imgur.com/qhw370c

https://imgur.com/uZpjJTM

https://imgur.com/4Lzf6Sr

to this

https://imgur.com/GpMb3gK

https://imgur.com/xZ21SUX

https://imgur.com/1pw5Tou


Thereby averting the circumstances that caused the Here Comes Tomorrow future she had to amputate.

The handbooks (which reflect and reiterate the canon featured in the comics) verify that it was a universe Jean had in her hand. Not a visualization...the universe:

https://imgur.com/NLy5H8C

and that said universe was 616:

https://imgur.com/hYE2YXA

3)You not being satisfied with how the feat is displayed visually, or it not being flashy enough for you is entirely irrelevant. Shes told to treat the universe in the M'kraan crystal and she materialises what we're told is the universe, whose atoms the Phoenix says she has telekinetic control of. Said feat resulted in her bio being updated to say she has total telekinetic control of atomic structures of a universal scale. Its conclusive. Learn the difference between your preferences and canon. Only the latter counts here.


Here's your claim:
Phoenix (well the white Phoenix) CAN control every atom in the 616 universe and therefore she can atomize Sentry at will.


Here we go:
1. Feats from characters from Future timelines (alternate futures) are not allowed.
2. White Phoenix altered Scott's path (via TP) which changed the future. This is not the same thing as demonstrating control over all the atoms in the 616 universe.

Those 2 facts dismiss your claim.

3. In every appearance, Jean with the PF (even Dark Phoenix) has never displayed the ability to control every atom in the universe.
4. The PF is a glass canon. It (and all of it's hosts) has been damaged, hurt, defeated, etc. multiple times. It is not indestructible by any means.
5. She was in the White hot room when doing that. There is no leaving the battlefield here.


It was a semi-automatic handgun. That means it was chambered in 9mm, 22 long rifle (those are in smaller handguns), 40, or 45 caliber. The average muzzle velocity is approximately 1200fps. The lowest muzzle velocity is just shy of 1000fps. The maximum muzzle velocity is above 1400fps (i've seen above 1800fps in some rounds). Using the conservative 1000fps is more than reasonable to get a lower bound for the feat.

The feat you posted had several problems.
1. That wasn't a bullet but some type of electronic device.
2. The distance the projectile covered greatly increased the time to react. Even if it was a rifle round going twice the speed then the fact that it was over 100 times the distance makes the feat worse.
3. You didn't post the issue number. I want to see if it is canon, since I saw Professor X not in a wheel chair.

Nice try, but even if we accept your lowest speed for a semi-automatic handgun bullet (which you must provide sources) then it is still quantifiable and thus better than anything quantifiable feat done by Phoenix.

Originally posted by h1a8
Here's your claim:
Phoenix (well the white Phoenix) CAN control every atom in the 616 universe and therefore she can atomize Sentry at will.


Originally posted by h1a8
Here we go:
1. Feats from characters from Future timelines (alternate futures) are not allowed.
2. White Phoenix altered Scott's path (via TP) which changed the future. This is not the same thing as demonstrating control over all the atoms in the 616 universe.

1 - The feat involved a time displaced 616 Jean Grey. Who after being killed in New X-men 150, was reborn from a Phoenix Egg to deal with Sublime:

https://imgur.com/NLy5H8C

Which is why in New X-men 154 Jean verified 616 Scott as her Scott and why it was 616 Scott that she had to urge to move on from her, his Jean Grey.

https://imgur.com/GpMb3gK

https://imgur.com/xZ21SUX

https://imgur.com/1pw5Tou

Phoenix Endsong 616 Jean Grey, referred to her experiences in the Here Comes Tomorrow timeline:

"I can see myself doing it AGAIN. Here I come tomorrow.....Little bug people. A built in obsolescence....Evolutionary dead-end. Burning away what doesnt work"


https://imgur.com/2WsaK7Z



New X-men 153:

https://imgur.com/O5nX0NZ

https://imgur.com/lv9FWfh

"The Termid species had an inbuilt genetic obsolescence.

https://imgur.com/mDQfPYb

Furthermore you are in no position to talk about which characters are allowed and not allowed when your biased ass is arguing with MM Sentry. Something strictly forbidden in the forum unless outlined in the opening thread post. Which in this thread it was NOT! The bloody audacity!

2 - Which would be a problem if the telepathic nudge she gave Scott was the demonstration of telekinetic control that ive been talking about. Bro your comprehension capacity is not at the level it needs to be to have a successful debate. If after all the posts ive presented on the matter, if after that long ass breakdown i typed for your benefit you think that telepathic nudge was the demonstration ive been talking about, then youre a lost cause. Look back, read, process, repeat just to make sure then come try again.

Originally posted by h1a8
Those 2 facts dismiss your claim.

They really dont. But you tried and thats what counts thumbsup

Originally posted by h1a8
3. In every appearance, Jean with the PF (even Dark Phoenix) has never displayed the ability to control every atom in the universe.
4. The PF is a glass canon. It (and all of it's hosts) has been damaged, hurt, defeated, etc. multiple times. It is not indestructible by any means.
5. She was in the White hot room when doing that. There is no leaving the battlefield here.

3) Of course not. Because thats a level of power and mastery she didnt reach until the culmination of New X-men's events in 2004. She was Dark Phoenix in 1980 many issues and decades prior. Its called character development. Are you with me now mate? LOL

4) Nope. Your understanding just isnt there. You havent done the necessary background reading ahead of making all of these misguided assertions and to be honest even if you had read them this thread casts doubt over whether you possess the mental capacity to interpret them as the writer intended.
Indestructible doesnt mean not being able to take damage. It means not being able to be destroyed.

Ive explained this in this very thread. That firebird is not the sum of the Phoenix Force. The Phoenix Force is the sum and substance of all life, it is all energy and matter. Sentry is made up of Phoenix Force. Damn even Aunt May is made up of Phoenix Force.

That firebird is an avatar. A representation of the PF's will, within reality.

Said avatar is inextinguishable, mutable life force:

https://imgur.com/4E5ewZA

https://imgur.com/hsIFaiY

That avatar can be shattered, even absorbed and metabolized and it'll be absolutely fine:

https://imgur.com/YCaT5vm

That is true indestructibility. Not a Hulk or Thor like brick.

The Phoenix Force is the only fundamental force that is a constant. All the others die at the end of the universe whilst the Phoenix perpetuates the creation cycle:

https://imgur.com/pjuobG6

https://imgur.com/wupM3vU

https://imgur.com/Is67e9G

It by canon cannot die and cannot be fully destroyed. The issue was your flawed grasp of indestructibility.

Originally posted by h1a8
It was a semi-automatic handgun. That means it was chambered in 9mm, 22 long rifle (those are in smaller handguns), 40, or 45 caliber. The average muzzle velocity is approximately 1200fps. The lowest muzzle velocity is just shy of 1000fps. The maximum muzzle velocity is above 1400fps (i've seen above 1800fps in some rounds). Using the conservative 1000fps is more than reasonable to get a lower bound for the feat.

Theres also bullet grain to take into consideration that can slow down muzzle velocity by 15% just going from 124g to 147:

https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge/bullet-grain/

But the heaviest 9mm grain 158 would slow down the velocity even further.

Then there's temperature to consider. All in all giving lower bounds than that 1000fps.

Variables. Variables

1000 ft per sec is approximately 681mph. Travelling 10ft at that speed equates to roughly 0.010012 secs.




Originally posted by h1a8
The feat you posted had several problems.
1. That wasn't a bullet but some type of electronic device.
2. The distance the projectile covered greatly increased the time to react. Even if it was a rifle round going twice the speed then the fact that it was over 100 times the distance makes the feat worse.
3. You didn't post the issue number. I want to see if it is canon, since I saw Professor X not in a wheel chair.

Nice try, but even if we accept your lowest speed for a semi-automatic handgun bullet (which you must provide sources) then it is still quantifiable and thus better than anything quantifiable feat done by Phoenix.

1) Incorrect. It was a Shi'ar bullet, fired from an advanced Shi'ar sniper gun by Lilandra:

https://imgur.com/kp97W0r

https://imgur.com/b13Q5VB

https://imgur.com/4lzkf4s

2) Given all of your assumptions above, it would be reasonable for me to assert that the sniper gun and ammunition of the Shi'ar is exponentially faster than the most advanced sniper bullet we have today the .220 Swift which can reach speeds of 3180mph. Especially given it was the Empress of the Shi'ar who would have access to the most advanced tech in her empire. So lets continue with this ridiculous exercise and say the ammunition could travel 2 to 3 times what we have as a conservative estimate. That'd make for a range of 6360 to 9540mph

Lets pick a middle value of around 8000mph.

The tower wasnt particular high and they werent that far ahead of it so lets say there was about 150 ft to be crossed. That'd take that bullet 0.0127841 seconds to reach the Professor.

Then when you factor in the fact that Jean wasnt stood there primed and ready for a telegraphed attack, unlike Sentry, it makes the feats entirely comparable.

See what utter nonsense this is trying to apply this level of real world science to a comic book? But you want to be a sore loser and indulge this absurdity so lets continue.

3) Hold yourself to the same standards. Where are your scans? Where are your scans?! Youve posted 1 single scan. Stop with the demands for evidence when you have provided next to nada. Its absurd. How do you have the audacity? LOL. Ive got no issue providing the issue number though. It was New X-men 133. Enjoy the read

Lets now talk about your fave topic....propensity! Can you show where its in Sentrys character (without any external influences like Norman Osborne taking advantage of his fragile mental state and urging him to do wrong) to kill someone as the 1st move?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
1 - The feat involved a time displaced 616 Jean Grey. Who after being killed in New X-men 150, was reborn from a Phoenix Egg to deal with Sublime:

https://imgur.com/NLy5H8C

Which is why in New X-men 154 Jean verified 616 Scott as her Scott and why it was 616 Scott that she had to urge to move on from her, his Jean Grey.

https://imgur.com/GpMb3gK

https://imgur.com/xZ21SUX

https://imgur.com/1pw5Tou

Phoenix Endsong 616 Jean Grey, referred to her experiences in the Here Comes Tomorrow timeline:

"I can see myself doing it AGAIN. Here I come tomorrow.....Little bug people. A built in obsolescence....Evolutionary dead-end. Burning away what doesnt work"


https://imgur.com/2WsaK7Z



New X-men 153:

https://imgur.com/O5nX0NZ

https://imgur.com/lv9FWfh

"The Termid species had an inbuilt genetic obsolescence.

https://imgur.com/mDQfPYb

Furthermore you are in no position to talk about which characters are allowed and not allowed when your biased ass is arguing with MM Sentry. Something strictly forbidden in the forum unless outlined in the opening thread post. Which in this thread it was NOT! The bloody audacity!
What does this have to do with the forum rules? White Phoenix of the Crown is from an alternate timeline (that doesn't exist anymore). Feats from characters from alternate timelines and futures are not allowed. No exceptions.

My use of MM Sentry had nothing to do with the thread. I was just stating which version of Sentry can beat Phoenix. That was my slick way of conceding who wins the actual thread. Duh.

Let's assume that White Phoenix of the Crown is as powerful as you are making her out to be. Why create and debate a spite thread? Obviously the OP wants standard Phoenix vs Standard Stable Sentry. That's a good fight. MM Sentry vs Standard Phoenix is spite as well as Standard Stable Sentry vs White Phoenix of the Crown. MM Sentry vs White Phoenix of the Crown might be interesting though (Sentry wins that). Using TP to nudge someone isn't proof that one can control all the atoms in a universe. I digress. This doesn't matter anyway since you are arguing the wrong Phoenix here. Standard Phoenix vs Standard Stable Sentry. My point that she can lose a forum fight via ko, temp death, etc. Increasing the grain without increasing the powder will decrease the muzzle velocity. Duh. The numbers I gave are from all standard grains of semi-automatic handgun bullets. Lol temperature of air doesn't affect muzzle velocity (velocity a few inches from barrel) to any significant degree.

Sentry started from rest and therefore accelerated. He didn't move with constant velocity. You must use the formulas
1. t = d/v to determine the time it takes a bullet to travel 2 inches.
Then use
2. a = 2d/t^2 (from d =1/2 *a* t^2) to determine the acceleration Sentry underwent.
3. We can use this acceleration to answer other questions like, "How long will it take Sentry to cover 0.5km?"
We can't assume the bullet is faster than a standard rifle bullet? Why should it be, logically? You want the bullet to be accurate, not necessarily faster than a rifle round. As long as the bullet is faster than a human can respond to is all that matters. But to be reasonable (objective) we can assume the bullet moves at the slowest rifle speeds (although the bullet doesn't not appear to be aerodynamic like a real bullet). It was possible Jean sensed the sniper when the other x-men told Professor x to look out. You can see jean concentrating on the sniper. So that's a form of telegraphing.

I'm not going to sit here and lie though. I'm not that type of person (like Carv, etc). That is a very good feat (in terms of perception speed and reactions). That feat does prove that Jean does have superhuman reflexes and what not. So she might not be a statue to Sentry Afterall. The feat is still inferior to Sentry's though.


Sentry has blitzed people from the onset. I can name multiple instances of him doing so. But I'll argue a fight where he doesn't. Sounds fair?

Originally posted by h1a8
What does this have to do with the forum rules? White Phoenix of the Crown is from an alternate timeline (that doesn't exist anymore). Feats from characters from alternate timelines and futures are not allowed. No exceptions.

White Phoenix of the Crown isnt from a different timeline. It was a time displaced 616 Jean Grey who as i showed in my last post, referred to 616 events and after getting rid of the Here Comes Tomorrow future claimed 616 as the one her friends came from, claimed 616 Scott as her Scott and changed the future of 616.

As also shown in my last post, when 616 Jean Grey reappeared in 616 in Endsong not only did she recall the events of Here Comes Tomorrow and state explicitly that it would be hell going through it again, but by the end of Endsong she reverted to White Phoenix again:

https://imgur.com/uMHUmey

Originally posted by h1a8
My use of MM Sentry had nothing to do with the thread. I was just stating which version of Sentry can beat Phoenix. That was my slick way of conceding who wins the actual thread. Duh.

Why be slick and not just have some integrity and concede outright? Why bring fanboyism and ego to the table unnecessarily? Shouldve just said Phoenix wins but i think MM Sentry would beat Phoenix. That wouldve been an adult contribution.

Originally posted by h1a8
Let's assume that White Phoenix of the Crown is as powerful as you are making her out to be. Why create and debate a spite thread? Obviously the OP wants standard Phoenix vs Standard Stable Sentry. That's a good fight. MM Sentry vs Standard Phoenix is spite as well as Standard Stable Sentry vs White Phoenix of the Crown. MM Sentry vs White Phoenix of the Crown might be interesting though (Sentry wins that).

Originally posted by h1a8
Using TP to nudge someone isn't proof that one can control all the atoms in a universe.

Bro youre making me lose brain cells. Its like you either dont read posts and skim them, or you do but you just dot get anything. The understanding just isnt there. I told you in my very last post that the TELEPATHIC nudging of Cyclops was not the TELEKINETIC control of all of the atoms of the universe ive been talking about all along. I also said in my last post that if after all the posts and breakdowns ive typed for your benefit, that thats what you thought then theres no helping you.

So in reading this, dont just fire off a response, instead look back at page 5 of this thread, read my ALL my posts on it and you will clearly see what scene relates to the telekinetic control of all the universes atoms. If you come back still clueless then this debate is over

Originally posted by h1a8
I digress. This doesn't matter anyway since you are arguing the wrong Phoenix here. Standard Phoenix vs Standard Stable Sentry. My point that she can lose a forum fight via ko, temp death, etc.

I've got history with the OP. We're old friends of near 20yrs. Trust me he was referring to Phoenix hosts in general and the Phoenix Force. White Phoenix isnt a separate character, its a state of mind that the most skilled Phoenix hosts can reach. Endsong saw Jean cycle through green, red and white Phoenix states across 5 pages of the same issue as her state of mind changed lol.

I ve never disagreed on that point. Of course anyone can lose a forum fight. Did you miss my 1st post in this thread:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I remember this thread. Memories!

This was when Whirly was in the midst of his troll era so i ignored it.

If this is a Phoenix host we're talking about then this is a battle. The average host wins 6/10, the most powerful win 9/10

If we're talking the Phoenix Force, then this thread is ridiculous. 10/10 PF wins.

Its all down to who theyre facing and the battle conditions.


Originally posted by h1a8
Increasing the grain without increasing the powder will decrease the muzzle velocity. Duh. The numbers I gave are from all standard grains of semi-automatic handgun bullets. Lol temperature of air doesn't affect muzzle velocity (velocity a few inches from barrel) to any significant degree.

There are multiple grains to consider, temperature and humidity. Plus we're getting too specific here in applying the real world to comics. A work of fiction where real world physics are consistently contradicted on panel. You cant be arguing how a man can break the laws of physics whilst in the same breath imposing real world physics inflexibly into the comic book world. Sentrys fast, Jeans fast, until theres a direct point of comparison either they fight each other, figures are given in the comic or they fight a common enemy we just cant make assertions regarding comparative reaction time. Just rule out speed blitzing as an effective strategy.

Originally posted by h1a8
Sentry started from rest and therefore accelerated. He didn't move with constant velocity. You must use the formulas
1. t = d/v to determine the time it takes a bullet to travel 2 inches.
Then use
2. a = 2d/t^2 (from d =1/2 *a* t^2) to determine the acceleration Sentry underwent.
3. We can use this acceleration to answer other questions like, "How long will it take Sentry to cover 0.5km?"

This is ridiculous bro Come on. Just rule out speed blitzing and continue the debate

Originally posted by h1a8
We can't assume the bullet is faster than a standard rifle bullet? Why should it be, logically? You want the bullet to be accurate, not necessarily faster than a rifle round. As long as the bullet is faster than a human can respond to is all that matters. But to be reasonable (objective) we can assume the bullet moves at the slowest rifle speeds (although the bullet doesn't not appear to be aerodynamic like a real bullet).

What are you talking about? Velocity positively affects accuracy. The higher the velocity the less time wind and gravity has to affect a bullets trajectory mid flight.

https://www.fieldandstream.com/guns/why-bullet-velocity-matters/ #:~:text=Velocity%20Makes%20Bullets%20Hit%20Harder
&text=Looking%20at%20the%20original%20.,foot%2Dpounds%20or%207.5%20percent.

Originally posted by h1a8
It was possible Jean sensed the sniper when the other x-men told Professor x to look out. You can see jean concentrating on the sniper. So that's a form of telegraphing.

That'd be conjecture on your part thats not actually supported by the visual depiction or narrative of the comic. Shes just got off a plane with the Professor and is surveying her new surroundings as you'd expect, with no idea that there was any danger. Theres a shout of "Professor X! Look out" with no information about what the danger was, where it was coming from and who from as the sniper fires and Jean catches this bullet on the fly. That is contrary to the definition of a telegraphed action.

Sentry is there listening to a speech from Void who has a gun pointed towards someones head. That is whats telegraphed. Be objective.

Originally posted by h1a8
I'm not going to sit here and lie though. I'm not that type of person (like Carv, etc). That is a very good feat (in terms of perception speed and reactions). That feat does prove that Jean does have superhuman reflexes and what not. So she might not be a statue to Sentry Afterall. The feat is still inferior to Sentry's though.

You cant assert as a fact that its worse than Sentrys when there are too many variables and all of your calculations are guesstimates based on comic book art. Its ridiculous. The only logical and objective way to progress this is to accept that both have superhuman reaction and no ones blitzing anyone in this fight. So remove it as a strategy and focus on the other abilities the characters can bring into play.


Originally posted by h1a8
Sentry has blitzed people from the onset. I can name multiple instances of him doing so. But I'll argue a fight where he doesn't. Sounds fair?

Entirely, as based on the feats we've presented it just cannot be ascertained who definitely has faster reaction time.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm


I've got history with the OP. We're old friends of near 20yrs. Trust me he was referring to Phoenix hosts in general and the Phoenix Force.

This is true and this is true, for all the pretenders old pal... no one quite does TL:dr quite as well as you hang on, I must read every long post you make. Quite pleased it took you 17/18 years to bite in this thread.

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
This is true and this is true, for all the pretenders old pal... no one quite does TL:dr quite as well as you hang on, I must read every long post you make. Quite pleased it took you 17/18 years to bite in this thread.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
x3000

There's multiple versions of each, so this how I see this playing out at first glance:

Agoraphobic Bob Sentry vs. any form of Phoenix = Phoenix FTW.

Confident "not holding back" Sentry (i.e. Sentry from end of WWHulk) vs. A new/inexperienced Phoenix Host = Sentry FTW. If Sentry can land a version of Phoenix that is still running on instinct, I can see him winning. Magneto did this to Jean when she's was still flexing her new wings.

Normal Sentry vs. A seasoned Phoenix Host (i.e. Normal Jean Grey Phoenix) = Phoenix FTW. I'd expect a fight of it. But in the end, I see an experienced Phoenix Host dropping normal Sentry.

Normal Sentry vs. Dark Phoenix Host (or any higher version of PF, including White Crown hosts or the Phoenix Force itself, etc.) = Phoenix FTW.

Unleashed Void Sentry (Dark Avengers era) vs. An Experienced Phoenix Host = Very tough call. I wouldn't be angry with either one winning or losing tbh. I suppose I edge Phoenix though. Deeper well to pull from.

Unleashed Void Sentry vs. Dark Phoenix (or higher) = Phoenix FTW, with varying degrees of difficulty depending on the version.

Overall, Phoenix outclasses. With the right combo of lesser host and/or greater Sentry, I can see some wins or stalemates, but most of the time Bob loses. I see normal Golden Sentry as being roughly akin to mashup of Silver Surfer and Superman, but not far removed from either. He's been knocked out by a raging Hulk and matched very well by Blue Marvel. He's elite; he's not above reproach. I see the Dark Era version of Unleashed Void as being a step above Elite and actually bridging that gap between elite hero/villain (such as Thor, Black Adam, Superman, etc.) and legit Skyfathers/Abstract Cosmics. Void may be in that same basic league as guys like (basic) Thanos. You need a team of Superman's to beat him; not just one. I know Sentry has some wild feats, but they have context limits. Did he blow up Molecule Man? Yes. But was this the same MM that fought Beyonder in Secret Wars? Not really. Not IMO anyway. Both Beyonder and Owen have been nerfed/retconned since that (roughly) 40 year old comic series. Limits have been better defined, cosmic pecking orders better established. Lots more characters have mastered transmutation and/or reality control. It's a different Marvel these days. Don't ignore those nearly-Silver Age feats, but take them with a grain of salt. Did he stalemate Galactus? I'll say yes. Only because Marvel hasn't had anyone call BS on it yet. But I say yes with a caveat of context: Galactus has an immense range of power depending on his hunger level, and normal Thor has driven him away in a starving state - yet we certainly don't claim that normal Thor is of a league with Galactus based on that showing. I doubt basic Sentry could last long against a fully fed Big G.

^^I recognize your name from the Marvel forums many years ago. Nice to see members still kicking

Excellent post btw