Sidous vs Kreia

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Clawed The Bum
Who is more powerful in the force (and fighting) ? Location is on top of New York City Skycapers.

P.S. i tried the search button and found no results

Darth_Janus
Kreia, obviously.

Admiral Akbar
This thread needs a picture. Of how owned sidious would be.

Fishy
I agree with the two previous posts.. Especially the picture part.

Darth_Janus
Bollocks. I don't have access to pics yet. Working for another four hours.

Fishy
Well come back in four hours, I won't see it for two weeks but then I can laugh stick out tongue

Clawed The Bum
sidiuos would win. man why does everybody disagree with me. sidiuos killed 3 jedi too within like 10 secoudns. and mace later with the help of anackin. sidiuos, i bieleve, could of killed maul just as easy as the other three. force push boom mace flies out the window and dies. sidious is the only sith the conquer the whole galaxy. kreia was just a little old lady tring to survive and died to the exile What the f**k?. sidouis has the most machordarion( something spelled like that) count eva becuase of his crystal. he camanded the force greater then anyone ever possibly. kreia was rejected by nilhus for soin. kreia also got her hand chopped of by soin and the only reason she survived is because soin let her live.

Darth_Janus
zOMG! cideus wud totly win lol r0x00r!!!@!!@!!

First off, learn to type. I don't care what excuse you have for not trying, get over it and learn... to... type.

Second, Sidious is inferior. Learn... to... accept... it.

Clawed The Bum
it isn't that aint trying it is that i am dumb. except when it comes to star wars

Darth Somebody
I would assume Kreia would win. But then again, they've never fought. So who knows? Dark Empire Sidious would probably take Kreia. Hell, Dark Empire Sidious could probably take Yoda. Then again, they've never fought either. So who knows?

Darth_Janus
With that kind of attitude, why post here?

Darth_Janus
Erm, I wasn't trying to be mean. Just... blunt.

Clawed The Bum
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
With that kind of attitude, why post here?

who are you talking too and can you please quote the post

Darth_Janus
Darth Somebody. I was being literal, since he recited "Who knows?" twice in his post.

Darth Somebody
Just simply balancing the level of Sidious negativity with an unknown variable. I don't think I've ever seen you say anything positive of Sidious, hence why I posted.

Clawed The Bum
lets get back on topic. how the boogger wooggers can kreia defeat sidiuos

Darth_Janus
I've said good things about Sidious, but I rarely have a reason to say such, because he's always pitted against some ancient Sith I believe with more experience and power. And I try not to encourage What-was-earlier wave of Sidious fanboys. Note that I don't even really defend Revan anymore or NJO Luke (Who I started out as defending as the all-time best until it just got ridiculous)... too much fanboyism. I don't like to show bias if I can.

But Obi-Wan pwns all.

How did that get in there? lol

Clawed The Bum
yes very true ^

Darth Somebody
Nope. Watto does.

Darth_Janus
No way. Obi-Wan can kick Watto like a football.

Actually, TPM Annie owns all.

Nai Fohl
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Actually, TPM Annie owns all.

TPM Annie > all.
Padme naked > TPM Annie.
Padme naked > all.

Darth_Janus
Hm. Well, if I was a Sith lord and she was nekkid, I guess she would rule, wouldn't she?

Logic stands. Verdict, Padme nekkid pwns all.

Clawed The Bum
i own padme's services. i am the pimp of pics. hahahahahahahaha. even tho i got no pics on my file. no just padme's and leia's pimp.

Great Vengeance
Sidious would beat kreia, kreia was strong but not that strong she was defeated by nihilus and the exile not to mention I dont believe she was ever even dark lord of the sith. Sidious is one of the strongest dark lords of all time, if you cant admit that your an EU fanboy. I mean really im sick of this crap that people in the older time periods were better than new time periods all the evidence points exactly opposite.

1.If the old sith were so unbelievably powerful why didnt they just take over the republic? If marka ragnos was the god everyone thinks he is why did he sit his on his ass his whole reign? Sidious actually did it he took over the republic something no other sith has done.

2.People bring up the fact that naga sadow could blow up stars...Its not that hard people just some simple telekinesis most reasonably powerful force users could do it they just havent a need for it, palpatine actually warps the very fabric of space and time itself to create force storms, much more impressive if you ask me.

3. Yes some knowledge was lost in all the years but then knowledge was gained also, do you think the jedi just sit around and do nothing? no they try to expand their knowledge and broaden their view of the force. Not to mention according to the movie plagues knew things no one else knew and he passed it all to sidious.

4.People bring up the fact that sith and jedi fought more wars in the old days, well war experience doesnt count as much as everyone seems to think, knowledge and mastering skills through meditation and training are more important than how much battle time you have gotten. Look how strong sidious and yoda were and they hardly ever fought real battles.

5.On wikipedia sidious is the greatest sith lord and yoda is the wisest and most powerful jedi master in the star wars universe, not saying wikipedia is fact just take it as you will.


And finnaly If you asked george lucas who was the strongest sith ever he would say sidious so there you go...

Great Vengeance
*ignore*

Nai Fohl
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Sidious would beat kreia, kreia was strong but not that strong she was defeated by nihilus and the exile not to mention I dont believe she was ever even dark lord of the sith. Sidious is one of the strongest dark lords of all time, if you cant admit that your an EU fanboy. I mean really im sick of this crap that people in the older time periods were better than new time periods all the evidence points exactly opposite.

No.



I explained it again and again:
- Ragnos thought the Jedi would still be stronger than the Sith therefore he kept the Sith fighting each other so that none of them would attack the Republic.
- Sadow failed because the Republic forces were too powerful in his time.
- Kun failed because Ulic betrayed him

And for gods sake: Sidious also failed since his own apprentice killed him and do you know what ? They sended entire armies to stop people like Kun, Nadd and Sadow and they were needed. What was needed to defeat Sidious ? A single Jedi Knight.



Palpatine does so in Dark Empire and he has his power boosted by a chrystal in that time. If destroying planets is so easily why he and Vader needed the Death Star ?



He didn't pass it all to Sidious. That is clearly said in the movies. And since all the Sith murdered their masters before receiving all the knowledge from them there should be more than "some" knowledge been lost.



Oh...at least one true point. Still they had practice fights with their apprentices, masters, padawans, students and so on...



Read the Janus disclaimer and stop throwing things from wikipedia like that in here. On wikipedia Revan is the strongest Sith Lord ever and if I would take the time to edit something there, C3PO will suddenly have the power to annihilate the entire universe.



Oh...he "would" ? What a great argument...

Sidious gets his ass kicked by Kreia as long as you don't take DE Sidious.

Illustrious
Why do we believe people in the Older time periods are more powerful? Because THEY EXHIBIT MORE POWER. We see no one around Palpatine's time period (during his actual life, not his clone + crystal days) throw stars around like it was their job, like Kun and Sadow could.

Also, NJO Luke could control a black hole. The reason that's not necessarily mentioned as much is because the NJO timeline shows a lot of incongruities as far as force powers go. Chalk this to either poor writing or poor planning. There are simply too many inconsistencies in the NJO timeline to make a definitive verdict.



Ragnos intentionally told/ordered/made sure that the Sith Empire sit on its hands. He ruled unquestioned for over a century, but the Empire didn't expand much because he WANTED IT that way. He felt the Republic, combined with the Jedi were far more potent and collusive than the cult that was the Sith -- a cult that mind you, was surprisingly good at killing each other.



Simple Telekinesis that requires VAST amounts of force. Do not even start with trying to calculate the amount of strength it would take to move a star core in any reasonable measure (pounds, tons), it would contain more digits than you can count.



Have you ever heard of the term "Necessity is the Mother of invention"?

The Jedi after the threat of the Sith were eliminated had practically thousands of years of Pax Republica. What would REQUIRE them to gain new abilities? They may well experiment with new technology, but advances in the era would be slim.

Take a look at the Medieval Era in European History; the era was not marked by incredible progress because there was not the NECESSITY for it. If you can be killed by your own apprentice, walk down the street and get sabered by the guy next door, or stop by the convenience store and get blown up by a Mandalorian, I guess that counts as incentive and/or necessity. Those who live would naturally be those that are stronger and more cunning, natural selection at its finest.



Nothing beats/replaces Experience.



Wiki what?



Oh yeah? Well Padme nekkid has nothing on Jabba nekki... oh wait.

Clawed The Bum
kreia lost to some old jedi that had his power cut away from the force. kreia's ONLY i repeat only thing that she did impressive was cheap shot 3 jedi masters and kill them.

Darth Windu
How is it cheap shot? She walked in, they looked at her in that laggy way they do, she raised her hand and BOOM! they're gone.

Darth_Janus
Jabba is always nekkid.

Darth_Otaku
Originally posted by Clawed The Bum
man why does everybody disagree with me.
Cuz you suck ass...and you spelled Sidious wrong...

Illustrious
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Jabba is always nekkid.


NUH UH!!! Pizza the Hutt has to take off his suit, then Jabba is nekkid.

Great Vengeance
Nai Fol-

1.no? "What a great argument..."

2.Stop making excuses for ragnos, if we was so powerful he would fear nothing. For sadow once again why didnt he just blow up the republic fleet if hes so powerful?(something sidious can do). Also that single jedi knight was the son of the chosen one who had just owned vader with a years experience, then sidious makes him cry for daddy.

3.wtf? to my knowledge the kyber crystal is something made up by super shadow and even if it isnt the old sith had plenty of sith artifacts to boost their power also. The emperor didnt need the death star that was tarkins toy, the emperor also wanted to keep the knowledge of him being a sith lord under wraps hence why everyone thinks vader is the last of his kind, if he just decided to blow up a planet one day dont you think people would get suspicious? If people knew the emperor himself was a sith lord the rebellion would double in size.

4. So its agreed the war experience argument is wrong, the point goes to me.

5. I didnt say wikipedia is fact but wikipedia does represent the opinion of the majority.

Yes he would I dont imagine he would say "marka ragnos".

Why cant I use DE sidious, it should be both fighters in their prime.

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by Illustrious
Why do we believe people in the Older time periods are more powerful? Because THEY EXHIBIT MORE POWER. We see no one around Palpatine's time period (during his actual life, not his clone + crystal days) throw stars around like it was their job, like Kun and Sadow could.

Also, NJO Luke could control a black hole. The reason that's not necessarily mentioned as much is because the NJO timeline shows a lot of incongruities as far as force powers go. Chalk this to either poor writing or poor planning. There are simply too many inconsistencies in the NJO timeline to make a definitive verdict.



Ragnos intentionally told/ordered/made sure that the Sith Empire sit on its hands. He ruled unquestioned for over a century, but the Empire didn't expand much because he WANTED IT that way. He felt the Republic, combined with the Jedi were far more potent and collusive than the cult that was the Sith -- a cult that mind you, was surprisingly good at killing each other.



Simple Telekinesis that requires VAST amounts of force. Do not even start with trying to calculate the amount of strength it would take to move a star core in any reasonable measure (pounds, tons), it would contain more digits than you can count.



Have you ever heard of the term "Necessity is the Mother of invention"?

The Jedi after the threat of the Sith were eliminated had practically thousands of years of Pax Republica. What would REQUIRE them to gain new abilities? They may well experiment with new technology, but advances in the era would be slim.

Take a look at the Medieval Era in European History; the era was not marked by incredible progress because there was not the NECESSITY for it. If you can be killed by your own apprentice, walk down the street and get sabered by the guy next door, or stop by the convenience store and get blown up by a Mandalorian, I guess that counts as incentive and/or necessity. Those who live would naturally be those that are stronger and more cunning, natural selection at its finest.



Nothing beats/replaces Experience.



Wiki what?



Oh yeah? Well Padme nekkid has nothing on Jabba nekki... oh wait.




Illustrious-


1."Why do we believe people in the Older time periods are more powerful? Because THEY EXHIBIT MORE POWER" Oh really, luke manipulates a black hole, sidious destroys a fleet and instantly transports luke across the galaxy, jacen becomes a counduit to the force. And you cant just disregard DE sidious because hes harder to argue against

roll eyes (sarcastic)

2.Ive already answered this to nai fol.



3.I dont have alot of knowledge on the inner workings of stars but I believe all you would have to do is disrupt the core not move it. Besides how much energy do you think it takes sidious to tear a hole in reality?


4.Well I guess your word is law.

5. wikipedia, represents majority opinion.

Clawed The Bum
i am still waiting for the answer of what did kreia do impressive except cheap shot 3 jedi masters? and yes it was a cheap shot. the masters weren't waiting for old retard with no hand to pop out of no were and take dumps in there mouths. if they knew they would have their lightsabers ignited and would of owned kreia.

Darth Somebody
Illustrious and Nai Fohl have made some excellent points. I will say that there is precious hope that I can counter them, but I'll do my best. So let's begin.

Allow me to start out by saying that it is my belief that both Traya (Kreia) and Sidious are alike in many ways. Both possess un-natural strength in The Force. Both are excellent at using the Force to forsee future events - with Kreia's being even greater than Sidious's. Both are manipulative and clever - with Sidious being greater than Kreia here. So both have their talents and abilities. Obviously, Kreia's forseeing events and Sidious's manipulative talent will do no good in a one-on-one duel.

Kreia is powerful, indeed. She wiped out three Jedi Masters (like Sidious) with pure ease. I don't quite remember, but I was told she did it with a mere wave of her hand, expressing her strength in The Force. Kreia is also powerful with a lightsaber, like Sidious.

Sidious, while also powerful, is more of a mastermind than a warrior. His most dangerous weapon is not his mastery of the Force or his amazing combat skills, but rather, his mind. Manipulating events and people will not do him any good in this affair.

It would seem that Kreia would defeat Sidious in the end, when looking at evidence. And I would agree. Sidious would not be OWNED. Someone mentioned what I did earlier, about Kreia killing Jedi with a wave of her hand. And yet I wonder why she did not utilize this talent when fighting the Exile. So it would appear to me that this power can be dismissed. Afterall. If you can use it once, why can't you use it again?

The Dark Empire version of Sidious, I believe, would dominate Kreia in a fight. His Force Storm can be counterbalanced, by two powerful Force users such as Leia and Luke. But I don't know if Kreia could do it. Again I may be wrong, but I'm not sure. If Sidious employed the Force Storm, he would defeat Kreia. In lightsaber combat, perhaps as well.

So, in conclusion. In my opinion - Kreia would win against any form of Sidious - EXCEPT for the Dark Empire version of him - where he would conquer her.

Clawed The Bum
have i made some exelent points?crybaby

Darth Somebody
Well, as much as Sidious IS my favorite character, I will consent to the factuality of some of their points. Though I will say I will not agree to Nai's apparent negativity of Sidious (yes, we can all see it).

I will, till the very end, prove that Sidious's track record of accomplishments is greater than Ragnos's, Revan's, Kreia's, Malak's, Kun's, Ulic's and so forth.

I will also prove by that, that Sidious is one of the greatest Sith Lords of all time.

Clawed The Bum
i am begginging to like you more every day...

Nai Fohl
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
2.Stop making excuses for ragnos, if we was so powerful he would fear nothing. For sadow once again why didnt he just blow up the republic fleet if hes so powerful?(something sidious can do). Also that single jedi knight was the son of the chosen one who had just owned vader with a years experience, then sidious makes him cry for daddy.


Stop boring me.
Ragnos "feared" nobody. He just did stick to his logic. He knew that he was powerful. He also knew that the Dark Jedi that started the Sith Empire were defeated by the Jedi - so he had to think that the Jedi would be more powerful than the Sith Lords.
He was wrong in that point as it's shown later but that was just a lack of information and no "fear". If Ragnos knew how weak (at least) the Jedi were compared to the Sith he would have been the one to declare war on the Republic.
And since when can Sidious blow up an entire fleet ? Clone Sidious from the Dark Empire comics could do that. Now read my damn post - I said that this version of Sidious would beat Kreia. Sidious from the PT or OT would simply go down.



Now realy. If your knowledge isn't just complete than stop arguing me. Read the damn comics and if that isn't enough read "Splinter of the Minds Eye".
If the Emperor didn't need the death star and that was "Tarkins toy" - why did he built a second one ? Ups...
And Sidious being a Sith Lord ? He wanted to keep that under wraps ? You know that the several people DID knew that (Obi-Wan, Yoda, Bail Organa, Mon Mothma) ? Ever watched RotS ?
And if he could blow up stars and fleets:
a) Why he didn't do that in ROTJ when he had the entire Rebel fleet in his range ?
b) Who would try to defeat somebody that can blow up stars or fleets with his willpower ? If he could have done that in PT or OT times he would have done that - there would never have been a Rebellion.



Every single person can go there and write an article...blubb.



You can but you should have posted that. You did not. So...

Darth_Janus
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Illustrious and Nai Fohl have made some excellent points. I will say that there is precious hope that I can counter them, but I'll do my best. So let's begin.

Allow me to start out by saying that it is my belief that both Traya (Kreia) and Sidious are alike in many ways. Both possess un-natural strength in The Force. Both are excellent at using the Force to forsee future events - with Kreia's being even greater than Sidious's. Both are manipulative and clever - with Sidious being greater than Kreia here. So both have their talents and abilities. Obviously, Kreia's forseeing events and Sidious's manipulative talent will do no good in a one-on-one duel.

Kreia is powerful, indeed. She wiped out three Jedi Masters (like Sidious) with pure ease. I don't quite remember, but I was told she did it with a mere wave of her hand, expressing her strength in The Force. Kreia is also powerful with a lightsaber, like Sidious.

Sidious, while also powerful, is more of a mastermind than a warrior. His most dangerous weapon is not his mastery of the Force or his amazing combat skills, but rather, his mind. Manipulating events and people will not do him any good in this affair.

It would seem that Kreia would defeat Sidious in the end, when looking at evidence. And I would agree. Sidious would not be OWNED. Someone mentioned what I did earlier, about Kreia killing Jedi with a wave of her hand. And yet I wonder why she did not utilize this talent when fighting the Exile. So it would appear to me that this power can be dismissed. Afterall. If you can use it once, why can't you use it again?

The Dark Empire version of Sidious, I believe, would dominate Kreia in a fight. His Force Storm can be counterbalanced, by two powerful Force users such as Leia and Luke. But I don't know if Kreia could do it. Again I may be wrong, but I'm not sure. If Sidious employed the Force Storm, he would defeat Kreia. In lightsaber combat, perhaps as well.

So, in conclusion. In my opinion - Kreia would win against any form of Sidious - EXCEPT for the Dark Empire version of him - where he would conquer her.

As to why Kreia did not simply exterminate the Exile with a wave of her hand like she had the Jedi masters, the answer is more complicated then most think. COnsider the following:

- Kreia wanted the exile to be taught and trained... So that when she passed (And I am paraphrasing her right here) the exile would come full circle and confront his/her past.

- Kreia has no reason to kill the exile. None.

- Kreia's talent that was used against the Jedi masters is one born of the Sith of the Jedi Civil War... namely the assassins bred by Revan's dark projects. On a lesser scale, the nameless sith assassins as encountered throughout the game grow in strength as the exile does (Because the exile regains his/her connection to the Force via Kreia and others). Kreia, much stronger in the art, uses it to destroy the Jedi masters. (Note that when the bodies are checked after her attack, they are marked as being "devoid of life and even of the Force". ) Nihilus, the pinnacle of the art, has become consumed by his power and does not operate on any level we can understand. But that's besides the point. Kreia uses a previously unknown Sith art, and I doubt VERY MUCH that Sidious knows of it and can counter it, seeing as even the Sith who created it cannot counter it.

- Kreia has a better command of the Force then both Luke and Leia in the Dark Empire books, so doubtless she can counter it. However, it might take its toll on her. She's not invincible by any means.

- Manipulation is Kreia's forte as well. Darth Somebody, I assume you have no played KOTOR II through, because if you had, you would have come to appreicate Kreia's philosophy of using sentients as tools. Kreia has no friends, only tools with which to do her bidding. Like Palpatine, she knows that a gentle nudge can lead to a terrifying avalanche. So I would reconsider any ideas that Palpatine is the sole genius here. kreia is every bit as smart and moreso... She's willing to die for her cause. I believe that gives her more conviction in a fight.

- Kreia is a former Jedi master and a Sith lord. She has a broader range of experience in these matters.

Darth_Janus
Oh, and Great Vengenace...

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Great Vengeance

2.People bring up the fact that naga sadow could blow up stars...Its not that hard people just some simple telekinesis most reasonably powerful force users could do it they just havent a need for it, palpatine actually warps the very fabric of space and time itself to create force storms, much more impressive if you ask me.

I have been banned for the last two weeks and been doing mission trips and stuff, so I'm trying really har to get caught up, so I'm not going to make a large post.

One thing I did notice and felt a large need to set straight is this crap about bending spacetime being harder than destroying a star. I feel it necessary to imform you that I have found an amazing way to bend spacetime myself. It took me my entire life, but it's amazong, and it works all the time. Want to hear my secret? Ok.

I weigh 175 pounds! And I am bending spacetime while I'm typing! IS THAT COOL OR WHAT!

Sorry, I just needed to get that out of my system.

Darth_Glentract
thanks Janus, its good to be back

Darth_Janus
Hell yeah!

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Oh, and Great Vengenace...

That is...innappropriate. sad

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I have been banned for the last two weeks and been doing mission trips and stuff, so I'm trying really har to get caught up, so I'm not going to make a large post.

One thing I did notice and felt a large need to set straight is this crap about bending spacetime being harder than destroying a star. I feel it necessary to imform you that I have found an amazing way to bend spacetime myself. It took me my entire life, but it's amazong, and it works all the time. Want to hear my secret? Ok.

I weigh 175 pounds! And I am bending spacetime while I'm typing! IS THAT COOL OR WHAT!

Sorry, I just needed to get that out of my system.

I didnt know moving around ripped the space time continuim...well I guess I should go now my relentless logic has found a superior.

Great Vengeance
nai fol-

I didnt see you admitted that DE sidious would beat kreia, if that is true than we are in agreement and further argument isnt needed.

darth somebody-

Good job supporting the sidious cause smile

Darth Somebody
I did not refer to Palpatine being the sole genius here, Janus. Kreia is manipulative and highly intelligent. And her goal wasn't galactic domination - but the destruction of the Force. And I believe even Nai has stated that the Dark Empire Sidious might actually beat Kreia.

And I was referring to when we fought her at the end as the Exile. Why didn't she use that power then, when he tried to kill her?

Darth_Glentract
well thanks for the triple post, GV. And did I ever say ripping? No. I said bending, there's a major difference.

Darth_Janus
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
I did not refer to Palpatine being the sole genius here, Janus. Kreia is manipulative and highly intelligent. And her goal wasn't galactic domination - but the destruction of the Force. And I believe even Nai has stated that the Dark Empire Sidious might actually beat Kreia.

And I was referring to when we fought her at the end as the Exile. Why didn't she use that power then, when he tried to kill her?

Nai's word, while carrying more weight then say, MAKASHIMAN's, isn't a justification in itself. Unless I missed something where Nai points out logically how Reborn Sidious could counter Kreia's Sith-honed drain power, the same that she used against the Jedi masters, I'll remain on her side in this debate.

And I think you failed to read my popst properly... I'm saying that Kreia HAD NO REASON to kill the Exile. And if she had no reason to really kill the Exile, she would not use something so fatal and uncounterable as the Force drain attack she uses. Her whole mission was to reeducate and heal the Exile. The destruction of the Force was merely part of the bigger scheme.

LordSorgo
Wow, alot of people underestimate Sidious....

Darth_Glentract
You know, that is a paradox. By you saying he is underestimated, I could say you are overestimating him, which in turn would make you think I was underestimating him, making me thing you are overestimating him, which in turn would make you think I was underestimating him, making me thing you are overestimating him, which in turn would make you think I was underestimating him, making me thing you are overestimating him, which in turn would make you think I was underestimating him, making me thing you are overestimating him, which in turn would make you think I was underestimating him, making me thing you are overestimating him, which in turn would make you think I was underestimating him, making me thing you are overestimating him, which in turn would make you think I was underestimating him, making me thing you are overestimating him, which in turn would make you think I was underestimating him, making me thing you are overestimating him, and so on and so fourth.

LordSorgo
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You know, that is a paradox. By you saying he is underestimated, I could say you are overestimating him, which in turn would make you think I was underestimating him, making me thing you are overestimating him, which in turn would make you think I was underestimating him, making me thing you are overestimating him, which in turn would make you think I was underestimating him, making me thing you are overestimating him, which in turn would make you think I was underestimating him, making me thing you are overestimating him, which in turn would make you think I was underestimating him, making me thing you are overestimating him, which in turn would make you think I was underestimating him, making me thing you are overestimating him, which in turn would make you think I was underestimating him, making me thing you are overestimating him, which in turn would make you think I was underestimating him, making me thing you are overestimating him, and so on and so fourth.

...

...

...

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Darth_Glentract
are you drunk?

LordSorgo
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
are you drunk?

No, but i know a certain poster who is....

Darth_Glentract
who?

Darth Somebody
This argument goes around in circles and circles.

LordSorgo
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
This argument goes around in circles and circles.

Then it is similar to your perpetual homosexuality.

Darth Somebody
Originally posted by LordSorgo
Then it is similar to your perpetual homosexuality.

And what the HELL is this all about?

LordSorgo
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
And what the HELL is this all about?

Your perpetual homosexuality.

Darth_Janus
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
This argument goes around in circles and circles.

For some, perhaps. I think it's pretty straightforward based on what is presented.

Palpatine Reborn>non-Force sensitive ships

Palpatine Reborn>pre-NJO Luke

Kreia>Lord Sion

Kreia>Three highly trained Jedi masters (Elapsed time .05 seconds)

Darth Windu
yes

Darth Windu
K, I'm done with all the smilies. . . Kreia vs. Sidioius= Kreia.

LordSorgo
Originally posted by Darth Windu
K, I'm done with all the smilies. . . Kreia vs. Sidioius= Kreia.

Quite the Elaboration there, Windu. stick out tongue

DarthGenises
Originally posted by Darth Windu
K, I'm done with all the smilies. . . Kreia vs. Sidioius= Kreia.

Any reasons?

Darth Windu
Originally posted by LordSorgo
Quite the Elaboration there, Windu. stick out tongue

Lol.

And Genises; they're in the past four pages.

DarthGenises
I only saw othre peoples elaborations

Darth Windu
You saw elaborations. That's all you need. They took the words right out of my mouth.

Darth_Janus
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
For some, perhaps. I think it's pretty straightforward based on what is presented.

Palpatine Reborn>non-Force sensitive ships

Palpatine Reborn>pre-NJO Luke

Kreia>Lord Sion

Kreia>Three highly trained Jedi masters (Elapsed time .05 seconds)

I thought this was pretty straight forward. Perhaps, Genises, I should tell you what the little symbols mean? And by symbols I mean letters, since I know those logical symbols must be beyond your intelligence.

Darth Windu
And then in the Literature/EU section he calls me a ****ing fanboy. What is that?

Darth_Janus
Well, I think he's mad because he typoed his name. See, he was originally supposed to be Darth Penises.

LordSorgo
Originally posted by DarthGenises
I only saw othre peoples elaborations

I didn't see any "Othre people". Are they from Mars?

Darth_Janus
Yeah. Martians do it all. I thought you knew that. Hell, EVERYONE who's anyone knows that, dude. It's in the same class where Vader owns all.

LordSorgo
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Yeah. Martians do it all. I thought you knew that. Hell, EVERYONE who's anyone knows that, dude. It's in the same class where Vader owns all.

Hahaha!

Darth_Janus
Bullshit 080 I think. Bullshit 101 is where they say that Maul owns everyone but who they like. In 202 TPM Annie wins all because he is the Chosen One.

Nai Fohl
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Nai's word, while carrying more weight then say, MAKASHIMAN's, isn't a justification in itself. Unless I missed something where Nai points out logically how Reborn Sidious could counter Kreia's Sith-honed drain power, the same that she used against the Jedi masters, I'll remain on her side in this debate.


Oh...ups... wink

Ok. I already argued about how Kreia killed the Jedi masters on Dantooine. The things shown in EU stories before simply make me think that this was no force drain (that won't kill people) and it also was not "cutting their connection to the force" since serveral people survived that (The Exile himself, Ulic Quel-Droma when Nomi Sunrider did it to him).

I think she used the force to make them feel the responsibility for thousands of deaths (make them feel what the Exile feeled) thereby killing them. Now...what would that do to Sidious ? He carries the responsibility for the death of thousands if not millions of people and he doesn't seem to care much about it. He's a Sith Lord.

And well...his force powers seem to be immense. I don't think he can be "force drained" that easily. See...Luke at this time (and that's just one year before the Jedi Academy Series) didn't even try to defeat Sidious because he immediatly realised that he can't win. DE Sidious needed Lukes powers and potential combined with Leias potential to be defeated and I don't think Kreia would be able to do that on her own. Because:

a) she would (realy) have less force powers than Sidious (having his force powers boosted)
b) I don't think she is that great with a lightsaber. Sidious as an 60+ year old man in ROTS was quite nice. Having a body that is in his 20s but all the knowledge he had before would also make him more powerful in a physical way.

So yes. I think DE Sidious can take down Kreia powerwise and in a lightsaber duel as well.

Darth Somebody
It feels good to finally have you share a common opinion. You have a tendancy to take care of most of the argument. Are you an overachiever?

Darth_Janus
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Oh...ups... wink

Ok. I already argued about how Kreia killed the Jedi masters on Dantooine. The things shown in EU stories before simply make me think that this was no force drain (that won't kill people) and it also was not "cutting their connection to the force" since serveral people survived that (The Exile himself, Ulic Quel-Droma when Nomi Sunrider did it to him).

I think she used the force to make them feel the responsibility for thousands of deaths (make them feel what the Exile feeled) thereby killing them. Now...what would that do to Sidious ? He carries the responsibility for the death of thousands if not millions of people and he doesn't seem to care much about it. He's a Sith Lord.

And well...his force powers seem to be immense. I don't think he can be "force drained" that easily. See...Luke at this time (and that's just one year before the Jedi Academy Series) didn't even try to defeat Sidious because he immediatly realised that he can't win. DE Sidious needed Lukes powers and potential combined with Leias potential to be defeated and I don't think Kreia would be able to do that on her own. Because:

a) she would (realy) have less force powers than Sidious (having his force powers boosted)
b) I don't think she is that great with a lightsaber. Sidious as an 60+ year old man in ROTS was quite nice. Having a body that is in his 20s but all the knowledge he had before would also make him more powerful in a physical way.

So yes. I think DE Sidious can take down Kreia powerwise and in a lightsaber duel as well.

- Your idea on Kreia's ability is wild speculation. The facts we have about the ability is it killed three jedi masters instantly and left voids in the Force where their bodies where. Since that's basically what the "new Sith" of the post-Jedi Civil War era do, it only makes sense that this is a "technique in the Force against which there is no defense". Why no defense? Well, did you see them put up a fight? And honestly, when you saw Kreia Force push Vrook like he was a child, did you think that she was weaker than Luke at the time of DE? And if so why?

- If he supposively can't be "force drained" that quickly, then I'm still not seeing how that can be different... (Is Sidious' Force powers so much greater than three battle-ready Jedi masters of old) DE Sidious (Who is becoming the next NJO Luke around here) has so far done one thing spectacular in sofar as we know: The Force storm. And because he's twenty, it's the general assumption that he is suddenly god at lightsaber combat. I'd like to see some well-thought out reasons on the table this time, Nai. You're usually very good, but I think you're on the wrong side this time.

- Luke by himself wasn't enough for DE Sidious (Or so he thought... He still had a long way to go... he fell to the dark side in this series, which is complete and utter bull, but whatever...) How Leia and her almost nonexistant skills and abilities contributed specifically beyond a distraction I can't imagine. But the point is, a former Jedi master and Sith lady Kreia (Who can be anywhere from 60 to a hundred or so years in age) is potentially dangerous and filled with more tapped energy than Luke at this point AND his sister. Of all the KOTOR era Sith, she is the MOST likely to be able to withstand and defeat Sidious using the Force. Her powers, wisdom, and abilities are immense. I think many of you are shortchanging her to jump on the DE Sidious bandwagon.

- Her lightsaber abilities are pretty much anyone's guess. Assuming she threw the earlier fight with Sion, she's still as capable as a jedi consular can be. Yoda was a consular, more diplomat and teacher than warrior, and with his wisdom and command of the Force his power is immense. Don't shortchange her just because she isn't flashy in game.

Darth Kronos
Hi guys...Kreia...Bye guys

Darth Somebody
- It is true that Kreia's remarkable ability to drain the Force from the Jedi Masters and leave them devoid of it, and also kill them, has not really been identified. But I still didn't see her use on Scion or the Exile, when she knew that both were looking to kill her. I suppose there is a reason behind it, but I'm not aware of it. A remarkable feat truly. The ability to kill powerful Jedi with a mere wave of the hand. Kreia does indeed deserve credit.

- I would assume that Luke - during the Dark Empire days - was similar to Anakin. If Luke or Anakin ever reached their potential, they would probably be far beyond Kreia, Revan, or Sidious. Potential counts for a lot. Anakin was credited with a great deal more power than he actually displayed in Revenge of the Sith. Anakin and Luke seem to be stronger in the Force than Sidious or Kreia - so I would assume that is where Sidious's defeat in Dark Empire can be attributed to. Both Leia and Luke have the potential to become extremely powerful - with Luke already there. I presume it does indeed have to do with Force Connection - which we can assume - that Luke's and Leia's are beyond Kreia's.

- Luke, seemingly incorruptable, did indeed fall to the Dark Side. Sidious has a knack for manipulating extremely talented and powerful people into falling under his service and to that of the Dark Side. A talent that Kreia lacks - but then again - not something that is particularly useful in the situation. However, Luke turned for a reason. Not because he was tempted by the power, but because he knew he couldn't defeat Sidious. According to Star Wars.com databank, Sidious was virtually immortal - I would assume - due to his cloning. Or perhaps it is evidence of his high level of power.

- The Force Storm in the KOTOR games - even when wielded by Revan - is much, much, much weaker than that of Sidious. Of course, that is because it would sort of be unfair to have access to a feat that can consume ships and fleets. The Force Storm ability IS very great. I don't recall - then again I might lack the knowledge - of any other feat which can consume entire fleets.

- Sidious was also, apparently limited by his old age in Revenge of the Sith, similar to Yoda. In his clone, his mastery of the Force is equal to when he was old - except with the addition of a few new Force powers. He was in prime physical condition. He would be, in essence, stronger and faster than Kreia in lightsaber combat - considering she is an old woman.

And whatever Yoda's abilities are does NOT reflect those of Kriea.

Darth Somebody
I made an error. Kreia DOES have that ability. I.E Scion and Nihilius. My mistake.

Nai Fohl
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
- Your idea on Kreia's ability is wild speculation. The facts we have about the ability is it killed three jedi masters instantly and left voids in the Force where their bodies where. Since that's basically what the "new Sith" of the post-Jedi Civil War era do, it only makes sense that this is a "technique in the Force against which there is no defense". Why no defense? Well, did you see them put up a fight? And honestly, when you saw Kreia Force push Vrook like he was a child, did you think that she was weaker than Luke at the time of DE? And if so why?

Yes. My idea on Kreia's ability is speculation. At least I can tell what it was NOT and nobody can say what it was. You can even say she was just able to do that because of dramatic necissarity (Exile without force powers would be not that great trying to fight through the Trayus Academy and Kreia defeating 3 Jedi Masters in a lightsaber fight...well...also very unlikely).

Still she never used it in other situations when she might have needed it (for example when Sion and Nihilus wanted to kill her). That leaves the conclusion that she:

a) can't use it in any situation at least not against other Sith Lords
b) needs some time to focus before she can do that

In both cases it would be very useful vs DE Sidious.



I didn't say that he is god in force powers or lightsaber combat. We know what he could do when he was in his 60s with a lightsaber. Now transfering his spirit with all his (force) knowledge into the body of a clone of himself in his 20s and he would clearly posess more physical strength and agility. Don't you think so ?

And well...he used his force storm to pull Luke from Coruscant directly to Byss. Erm...did we ever see somebody else "throw" people from one planet to another (distance: several lightyears) ? I don't think so. And he destroyed capital ships at least the size of the Executor with sheer force powers without any "channeling" (like Sadow used it to destroy stars).



1.)
Well...we know that Luke tried fighting even when all chances were against him. So when he simply refuses a fight because his opponent is too powerful (and in this time Luke is already on Jedi Master status) I guess the opponent has to be REALY powerful.

2.)
Luke accessed Leias potential to use the force. So this is actualy a Jedi Master with the combined potential of both Skywalker children (and that might surpass Anakins own force potential) against DE Sidious.

3.)
Sidious himself would be (mentaly) 98 years old in that time. He had access to a pre-KotoR time Jedi Holocron, to 1,000 years of Sith teachings and he is the only (not ancient) Sith Lord that ever visited the heart of the old Sith Empire (Ziost) as far as we know. So he might be older than Kreia, he might know more about the ancient Sith than Kreia (since he personaly visited the capital planet of the Sith Empire). And he boosted his force powers beyond the things that I would call "normal". So in force combat Kreia might withstand his powers but I don't think that she can defeat him.



Well...Sion is a Sith Assasin who probably mastered form II. So he's something like Dooku. Did we ever SEE Kreia defeat him in a lightsaber fight ? The only thing I saw was that Kreia lost her hand when she tried to "play" with him.

And one last point: I think DE Sidious is even more useless in versus threads than NJO Luke is.

Darth_Janus
Really? More useless than NJO Luke? Why?

Nai Fohl
Because somebody who can throw people from planet to planet with his goddamn force storm is pretty much not defeatable in a duel.

"Oh...20 Jedi Masters coming to kill me" *snip* "Oh look...I threw them into space. Haha"

Darth_Janus
lmao... True. He does have that ability. Nevermind... De Sidious wins on account of chucking Kreia out in space.

Darth_Glentract
I dont know, Kreia can hold her breath for a real long time.

Darth_Janus
Yeah, but can she keep her insides from being sucked out heer pores from the vacuum that is space?

Darth_Glentract
you know, it doesnt actually work that way in a vacuum. My friends Dad was accidentaly submitted to a vacuum for over 30 seconds. He is fine now,

Admiral Akbar
what?

Human Vader
I'd assume breath control would do that, yes.

Darth_Janus
Oh? A vacuum in space? Not a Hoover, mind you.

Human Vader
Originally posted by Human Vader
I'd assume breath control would do that, yes.

darthrevan89
Who was the moronic writer that came up with the idea for DE Sidious to be able to throw people across space? THAT is simply overpowered.

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by darthrevan89
Who was the moronic writer that came up with the idea for DE Sidious to be able to throw people across space? THAT is simply overpowered.

Maybe the same guy that made it so naga sadow could blow up stars...

Darth Plagues
Darth Sidious would tear Kreia to shreds!

Darth Windu
Yeah. . . .which one?

Darth_Janus
Originally posted by Darth Plagues
Darth Sidious would tear Kreia to shreds!

PLageus, whenever you appear, fanboyism fills the air.

Darth Somebody
Plagues, I have to agree with Janus. People who say that are fanboys. Offer proof.

Nai Fohl
Originally posted by Human Vader
I'd assume breath control would do that, yes.

Well...great. So she can hold her breath until reaching the gravity field of a planet (maybe that needs serveral 1000 years of time). Then she can fall through that planets atmosphere just to get completely toasted while doing so or she leaves a deeeeeeeeeeeep impact crater when finaly reaching the surface.

Darth_Janus
If you can just hold your breath in outer space, why do they have space suits again?

JediMusician
For the stylish look, or course!

Darth_Janus
Well, duh, what was I thinkin?

Darth_Glentract
to protect from solar radiation(freezing isnt much of a problem in space, it takes a long time to lose heat in a vacuum), lack of air(you cant hold you breath), so Nasa gets a bigger budget, to keep from floating away if you lose you grip on a space walk(that would be a problem)

Clawed The Bum
remember in ESB luke and vadar were fightning in space so it doesn't space doesn't kill you in star wars universe.and also in ROTS when anackin and obi ( best jedi ever) sorta crash landed on the space ship. the door wasn't closed yet and they didn't die. also i want to say that finally i am in an arguement that the majority agrees with me ( sidiuos will win) and also that this is the longest lasting post that i ever had. keep on typing please.

JediMusician
Originally posted by Clawed The Bum
remember in ESB luke and vadar were fightning in space so it doesn't space doesn't kill you in star wars universe.and also in ROTS when anackin and obi ( best jedi ever) sorta crash landed on the space ship. the door wasn't closed yet and they didn't die.

When were Luke and Vader fighting in space? I must have missed that part.

As for the hangar, a giant reinforced blast door closed before anyone got out of their fighter.

Clawed The Bum
how bout the part were the glass was broken and GG escaped from the space ship? when obi ( best jedi ever) and anackin were captured.

Darth_Glentract
it wasnt fully depressurised yet

Darth Windu
Yeah, the door closed three seconds after it opened.

JKBart
Okay, this is the worst thread in my entire life

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