Master Sifo-Dyas- a bit of a mystery (SPOILERS)

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Ushgarak
Okidokey, they clearly inserted this one in to give us something to think about. To summarise:

1. Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the clones (or at least, the Kaminoans say so)

2. He was a Jedi Master who died just UNDER ten years ago (presumably, therefore, he died just after TPM)

3. Sifo-Dyas can obviously be corrupted to Sidious, though that would be an unprecendented way of choosing your Sith name as Dooku is nothing like Tyrannus

4. But there must be SOME dodgy connection there because Jango, sent as the template to construct the clones that Sifo-Dyas ordered, never met (or so he says) Sifo-Dyas, having been recruited by Tyrannus.

So, are we to assume, perhaps, that Sidious' cover was as a great Jedi Master who then faked his death soon after TPM? Maybe because being Supreme Chancellor took up too much of his time. But could he possibly have managed being a Senator and importnt Jedi at the same time?

Or is Sifo-Dyas nothing to do with Sidious at all, in which case, what exactly is the deal here?

peluffo
I think that Sidious just lies identifying himself as "Sifo-Dyas, great Jedi Master"...
I thing that because is easy to give fake ID to a culture/planet that is too far from the republic.

Anyway, is just speculation

sarlacc
i agree that it was probably just sidious or tyranus lying to the cloners. but some type of connection would be cool. i enjoyed this little tid bit of mystery and intrige.

queeq
I think there are a few possibilities.

1. I dispute that Sifo-Dyas died just UNDER ten yeras before. That is not entirely made clear, they say he died around ten years ago. Which might mean that he placed the order and then died.
What Sidous's involvement is, is unclear but in this scenario I guess he may have drawn Sifo-Dyas to the Dark Side like he did with Dooku, another veteran Jedi. Maybe Sifo-Dyas wanted to turn back and Sidious killed him.

2. Sidous conveniently used the death of Sifo-Dyas to place the order right after he died before the word spread, thus giving the order credibility. After all, the Kaminoans were still not aware that he had died so long ago.

3. Maybe it was Dooku that placed the order in name of Sifo-Dyas right after his death, being in league with Sidious. Maybe it was him who erased the Jedi archives. We must wonder if Sidious would have had ANY access to these. If he hadn't only Dooku could have done that, and also quite a long time ago: right before he left the Jedi Order. Placing the order for the clone army could have been done simultaneoulsy using Jedi channels and authority.

Mujaffa
maybe Sifo-Dyas saw the future and saw who sidious was as a civilian... then he went after the emperor and got slayed

Dim
Maybe it's just as simple as Sifo-Dyas is Sidious... I think this is the new "Is Sidious and Palpatine the same guy" theory..

queeq
No, that won't work. Sifo-Dyas was a REAL Jedi Master. They knew him or in OB1's case, had heard of him. So no Sith or Sidious, because otherwise Yoda would have identified Palpy.

Also, the order for clones was placed ON BEHALF of the Jedi, but the Jedi didn't know about it. So he didn't place the order legally. Something's fishy about it.

Captain REX
Well, when I first heard the name "Sifo-Dyas," I said "Sidious." It could be that Sidious dressed in brown, wore a fake beard, called the Kaminoans under an assumed name, and ordered the clones.

He could have easily said to the Kaminoans "I am the head of the Jedi Council. I am King of everything and you are my slaves." The Kaminoans probably would have gone to war, but they wouldn't have known if he was on the Jedi Council or King of Everything or not.

Ushgarak
Didn't they say that he died just under ten years ago? I can't rightly remember. I'll check again tonight.

We still have the basic problem that Sifo-Dyas was a real Jedi Master but has a name uncomfortably similar to Sidious' own; if Sidious just happened to use that name as a cover it seems a bit odd, but possible, I guess.

finti
Maybe Obi Wan lied saying he was dead since there might not have been a jedi named Sifo-Dyas. So Obi told this lie to play along to get more info out of the Kaminoans

sarlacc
maybe GL made sifo-dyas so simillar to sidious to cast some doubt and confusion on us. maybe now we're supposed to wonder if sifo = sidious and palpatine is just palpatine. and to bring up a point i hope will be avoided, GL has introduced cloning now so anything is possible.

peluffo
where it comes? I just can remember that the spoilers said that OB1 "plays along with the kaminoans" to get more info about the clones issue, so, he can be lying when he said that this jedi is dead.

Ushgarak
No, Obi-Wan is not lying. Windu and Yoda know Sifo-Dyas as well; Obi-Wan talks with them about him.

And DAMN shifty they look as well when Obi-Wan syas he is dead! I bet thoose two are hiding domething.

BTW, Obi-Wan CLEARLY says that Sifo-Dyas died ALMOST ten years ago. There can be no dispute.

davinci73
I believe that sidious is emperor palpatine because they are played by the same person and we know that he becomes emperor palpatine in the original series also played by the same actor as Palpatine.

Ushgarak
Yup, barring some massive twist, we pretty much take that as read these days. But this Sifo-Dyas thing is a far less clear cut mystery.

jedi fernando

queeq
I do remember they talked AGAIN about the time when Sifo-Dyas died. And OB1 wasn't sure.
Windu and Yoda DID look shifty.... what's going on here?

Gundark
What did the book say ?

Emperor Helmet
Nothing more than the movie said. He was a Jedi.

queeq
No. That he was a great Jedi, that he was one of the Lost Twenty, that he was of the old style of light sabre fighting, more effective in lightsabre-to-lightsabre fights. It would have added to his status other than "just another Jedi."

Emperor Helmet
Overkill. It is supposed to be mysterious.

queeq
Mystery is not just absence of info. Which is all there is. You need some info (namely that he was great and and hard to beat with great knowledge of the Force) but not about his exact intentions.
Hitchcock rule for suspense: the audience knows more than the heroes do, that will enhance your sympathy and empathy for the heroes. This is where the PT fails so far.

Emperor Helmet
What difference would it make how powerful he was.

finti
tell that to a boxer

yerssot
and why can't sifo-dyas been a name used by palpatine to give his order more credit again?

Ushgarak
Because of the shifty looks Yoda and Windu gave, because is it just coincidence that the name is so similar to his own, and why not just impersonate Yoda? Seeing as no-one checked.

yerssot
shifty look could mean "Wasn't he dead???"
and if he used the name Darth Sidious, peops would know, even if he used the name Sidious, since there is no Sidious in the Order

Ushgarak
Who said he should use the name Sidious?

And the shifty looks meaning "Isn't he dead" makes no sense. It's not as if anyone was saying he was alive.

yerssot
it's better to take the name of a Jedi, certainly if the dude is dead so they can't ask him again

Ushgarak
Yes. So what? No-one disputed that.

yerssot
and Sifo-Dyas died, so taking his name would be easy, and afterall, Kamino is in the Outer-Rim

Ushgarak
Again, yerss, I can't help thinking you are stating the obvious here. That said, it doesn;t matter if Sifo-Dyas was dead or not, did it? Why would it help to impersonate a dead Jedi? What difference would there have been if he had impersonated a live one?

And still there is the name similarity, and the shifty looks which clearly show there is more to this.

Fleer
I registered just for this topic. I already posted this reply, but it didn't work so I'm posting it again.

I'm not an avid Star Wars fan - I've seen all the movies, but I'm not that great at trivia and things like that. From what I got from the movie, however, was that Sifo-Dyas is actually Dooku. He's a very powerful Jedi, and Yoda seemed to know him. In fact, during the Yoda/Dooku fight scene, Dooku comments on how he was once Yoda's Padwan-Learner (I know I butchered that spelling, sorry!). So from that, and the shifty looks given by Windu and Yoda, I just gathered that Sifo-Dyas faked his own death, moved to Geonosis (spelling, again), and became Dooku.

Also, it was obvious that Dooku was in cahoots with Sidious, and if the Sidious=Palpatine theory is correct (which we all pretty much think it is), then he could have went along with it fine. Also, all of the clones were based off of Jango, and they seem to know each other also (despite what Dooku might say - Jango defends him during the battle).

Just my two cents.

finti
Dooku was dooku as a jedi master before the alliged death of Sifo Dyas

yerssot
errr... Sidious and Palpatine ARE the same, check the TPM DVD with the comentary

I haven't memorised the movie yet, so correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Jango given this job by someone he called a Jedi?

Julie
WHich job are you referring to?

sarlacc
no jango says that he's never heard of sifo dyas and that he was hired by some one named tyranus on one of the moons of bogden or something like that.

yerssot
sure it was Tyranus?

Ushgarak
Yes, absolutely. He definitely says Tyrannus.

And there is no way Sifo-Dyas can be Dooku! These people were KNOWN! I think others would have twigged if they were the same person!

yerssot
I should really watch it again ... *sigh*

btw, is there already a dialogue-text written?

Jayntree
Could it be as simple as this...

Master Sifo-Dyas is Darth Maul? It is a long shot, but it makes sense.

- Obi-wan and Qui-gon are the only Jedi that ever saw Darth Maul. They may never have seen what Sifo-Dyas looked like to begin with. I'm sure not all Jedi know each other.

- Darth Maul and Sifo-Dyas died about the same time. Both died about 10 years before AotC.

- Darth Maul was the apprentice of Sidious (Palpytine). When would Palpytine have time to train an apprentice from a young age? He is a polician from Naboo. Where would have have hidden this apprentice for so many years while he trained him? Makes sense that Darth Maul was a Jedi first and then turned to the dark side.

- The look Yoda and Mace gave eath other when Obi-wan asked about the death of Sifo-Dyas and when he died makes me think they knew something that Obi-wan did not. Could it be that Sifo-Dyas turned to the dark side?

Just ideas that were floating around in my head. confused

Ushgarak
Absolutely no chance whatsoever. Sifo-Dyas is NOT a man of mystery! He is a person who was well known! Obi-Wan, Yoda and Windu all knew him and I think they would have noticed if he was Maul!

Jedi Mercenary
Plus he was a jedi, not Darth Maul.

Jayntree
I would have to disagree with you Ushgarak on this one. Obi-wan didn't know him, he only new OF him (Obi-wan didn't even know if he had died for sure - - "Didn't he die almost 10 years ago?"wink, and no where did it say in the movie that he was well known. As for Yoda and Windu knowing him, that is what I was getting at. They gave each other a look when Obi-wan was asking about him. A look like that knew more about him than was commonly known.

Just playing devil's advocate here. =)

Ushgarak
Ok, so you are saying that this person was a senior Jedi- maybe even a Council Member- and no-one noticed the fact that he was Darth Maul. You are saying that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan had never seen this Jedi and nor had any other members of the Jedi Council to whom Maul was described. I guess all records of this man must have been retro-actively faked as well and that no-one has noticed this. You are also saying that it was Maul who placed the order for the Clones yet Dooku who sent the template. You are also saying that Maul was once a Jedi; if he had been then he would have been identified after Qui-Gon fought him and after his death.

Devil's Advocate or otherwise, this idea is not in the slightest bit credible.

Jayntree
No, no , no...

I'm not saying that no one knew who he was. I'm saying that Qui-gon and Obi-wan didn't know who he was. There are pleanty of Jedi-Masters that are not on the council. Lets not make assumptions. We do not know if he was poplular, we do no know that he was on the Council (but i'm sure if he was that would have been mentioned). We really don't know anything about his guy accept that he was a Jedi-Master. For all we know he lived on a far off system and really never visited Courasaunt (sp?). We know nothing about him. This is why theories of him can pretty out there. hehe.

As for the Jedi Council knowing him, they probably did. That is why I keep bringing up that Yoda and Mace knew more than they were letting out. Maybe the council kept hit quiet. After all Yoda told Mace to keep it quiet that the Jedi Council was not in tune with the force as they used to. He told him not to tell the Senate. Why not keep this a secret between Council members too?

Ushgarak
The Kaminoans describe him as a Council Member and Obi-Wan does not contradict this. And you have still not addressd the total impossibility of Maul ever having been a Jedi.

For your theory to even vaguely work involves a lot of extended thought and unnecessary plot complication. I cannot even begin to rate it as the slightest amount credible and I doubt anyone else will as well!

Jayntree
Well, first of all Sypo-Dyas could have claimed to be on the council to place the order. The Kaminoans would never have accepted the order if the Jedi was not on the council. When they told Obi-wan that he gave an odd look, like "He was?" Then he just played along.

Second of all why couldn't Darth Maul started out as a Jedi? If the council knew him, in this theory, they kept the truth secret. If we look at the history of Sith durring that time, 2 out of the 4 we know came from Jedi: Dooku and Vader. No one even knew Dooku the second Sith Lord until it was too late.

As for you keep bashing my idea I think you need to grab a hold of a better imagination for god's sake. It is an imaginary world made from a few movies and books. This theory would hold up as a THEORY. From what is revealed in the movies there IS evidence to back it up, as their is evidence that says otherwise. That is what makes it a theory. LOL.

Ushgarak
My imagination is absolutely fine. That doesn't mean I will accept any old crackpot idea like this one. I'm sorry you are upset I don;t like yor idea but that is because it is anot a very good one. I see absolutely no good evidence to support it and a ton of stuff that contradicts it.

Obi-Wan does NOT give a look which contradicts Sifo-Dyas not being a Council Member, and I am sure he would have said if he was not. His look was that the Kaminoans did not know he was dead.

Maul could not have been a Jedi because it would have been impossible to keep that covered up. Qui-Gon speficially says that he could only conclude that the person he fought was a Sith. This is something he would only say if the possibility that it was a Jedi had been COMPLETELY ruled out. Besides which there is absolutely no credible reason whatsoever for this to have been covered up. NONE. Nothing, from the Council's point of view, was even happening at this time.

Meanwhile, the fact that Tyrannus sent Jango clearly places the continuity of these events after Maul's death. He could not have placed the order.

Your idea involves the whole Jedi Council being in on a conspiracy to cover up who Maul was, it involves Maul placing an order for something after he died, for an army which GL's interview makes clear was only required AFTER the shortcomings of the droids were show up (this, by the way, completely destroys your idea). It involves Sifo-Dyas having never been seen by anyone in the Jedi Order ourside of the Council who are then further embroiled in this unusual conspiracy of silence.

let us be clear. It is only Windu and Yoda that are keeping anything back, and this is specifically about Sifo-Dyas who is xlearly a plot point for the current story, not anything to do with Darth Maul who was just a thug introsuced as a bad guy for TPM and for whok there is no more to whatsoever.

Now, if you are not prepared to have your ideas criticised then perhaps you should not post them. As it is, don't get so shirty about having such a ill-thought out idea roundly contradicted.

Jayntree
First of all, i was just joking around when I said grab an imagination. LOL. I'm not upset at all. I think it is funny that you are so upset that my theory doesn't fit in your world.



I think this is very subjective. You think one thing, this does not make it law. He did give several different facial expressions in this scene. I think they could be interpretted differently.



You are forgetting that Sith can be ex-Jedi. Vader and Dooku are Sith Lords and they were Jedi. So how could it COMPLETELY rule it out as you say? The look and the silence between Yoda and Mace is enough evidence to keep the theory going. That look was something. They knew something that Obi-wan didn't.



These are good ideas, but they can be gone around. Sifo-Dyas could have been seen by every one, but Qui-gon and Obi-wan. Who says they told everyone their story. Tell the council and let them deal with it. Gosip is for girls. hehe. As for the interview saying why the clones were ordered, I can't comment on what I haven't heard. If it isn't in the movies or a few books, you will have to give me a link so I can read it.



I said the council itself was keeping it back... not just Yoda and Windu.



I don't care is you post stuff about my dumb little theory, just to say that it has no credability was rather humorous. ROTFL. You take this so seriously. A few movies and books.... that is all it is. GL made this world to promote imagination and that is a quote. My imagination says my theory works a little.

I'm laughing so hard I almost wet myself.

Jedi Mercenary
Um, don't you remember in TPM when Maul said" At last we reveal ourselves to jedi, at last we will have revenge."???

Ushgarak
Of COURSE Sith can be ex-Jedi, but Qui-Gon wouldn;t have been CERTAIN he was a Sith unless he had ruled out being a Jedi! Which I thought I made pretty clear. If he had dissocvered that Maul was a Jedi he would have left the option opoen. But Maul WASN'T a Jedi, yet was trained in the Jedi arts. So, as Qui-Gon said, he had to be a Sith. Hence him being a Jedi is completely ruled out, as I say.

And I know that YOU said the whole Council was keeoing it back. I was saying you arr wrong, it is only Windu and Yoda who are hiding anything, as shown in AOTC.

You should check out George Lucasaquotes for yourself, but he clearly said that the bad guys start looking at clones because of the droid's poor performance in TPM. That utterly rules out Maul. BTW, do you even have the first inklings of a motive as to why they would cover up who Maul was? And how it is possible?

Meanwhile, hunourous or otherwise, your idea is no good, no matter how imaginative it is. And I am happy to stand by that.

Emperor Helmet
Actually Ush, only Yoda knows. Mace obviously agrees with Obi-Wan at the end of the film about the Clones. He is nodding his head in agreement until Yoda interrupts.



Maul very well could have been a Jedi. And maybe he is Master Syfo-Dyas.

Jayntree
As you say one cannot be Jedi and Sith at the same time. Once a Jedi quits the Jedi order and joins the Sith he is Sith, not Jedi. So Qui-gon is correct, Maul was trained in the Jedi arts and wasn't Jedi, he is Sith.



Aye, I'm saying the whole council could have held it back.

Again, this is just a fun theory to think over. I really holds water if you think about it. Of course there are holes in it as all theories have in them, but fun to talk about none the less. wink

*edited to fix quotes

Ushgarak
My main problem is still that it is unnecessarily complex. Star Wars is basically simple, after all.

Meanwhile, I agree, Helmet, though I suspect Windu is clued in on the Sifo-Dyas situation, if any.

Jayntree
I agree with you Ush. It is unnecessarily complex. That's the fun of it for me. Come up with a really complex plot out of very little information. Fun, fun, fun. I really don't think at all that the theory would be true, too complex to be at all true. But it works with the given data.

Ushgarak
Except, as I say, that the chronology of it all is after Maul died.

Jayntree
You still need to produce that evidence. I can't find anything to support that. This phantom interview probably took place, but where is it? As far as I'm concerned it took place at the same time, not a few months after Mauls death.

Emperor Helmet
It is possible that Maul was once a Jedi. That may be why they cut the lost 20 part of the film. It also fits Sidious's apprentice history. Afterall, it does seem like Sidious likes using former Jedi as his apprentices.

Ushgarak
Why would they have cut the lost 20 because of that? Surely they would have known when they created the concept.

yerssot
from the spanish official novel of TPM, the sith started from jedi that left the order, so every sith/dj is in someway one of the lost 20

Jayntree
What is the "lost 20?"

Ushgarak
A cut piece from the film wherein it is revelaed that Dooku is one of 20 people to have ever left the Jedi Order. No longer canonical but a good indication of how GL thinks about renegade Jedi.

Jayntree
Cool, thanks Ush.

yerssot
hmmm, my opinion is that it IS canon, since it was part of the movie, just no-one saw it...

Ushgarak
Nah, you don't want to go down that line, yerss. If it wasn't there it's not canon.

yerssot
that's the problem, it WAS there...

Emperor Helmet
Not to be rude, but your opinion is wrong.

queeq
I thought, Ush, you always said the novel was canon too. It's in the novel.

Ushgarak
Semi-canon.

queeq
So it's half canon. So we can be safe on the Lost Ten? big grin

Budgie
I think that master syfa-dias was in fact a jedi all along and was probably tricked or forced into ordering the clones by dooku ten years ago. He was probably told that a jedi would be used as the basis for the clones and that is why he agreed to do it but was killed by dooku before he could select a subject. At that point, dooku chose jango fett to be the subject at the request of sidious.

This would explain the the look on windu and yoda when obiwan mentions syfa-dias. They maybe know there was a duel between dooku and dias and that dooku won it. Maybe they have always wondered why they fought each other and the answer has become clear to them. This would also explain why dooku has been banished form the jedi order and is on geonosis. (He has been banished because he killed another jedi).

Sidious has been keeping tabs on the clones during the ten years through jango fett and then dooku but his plan goes **** up when the jedi discover the clones and yoda uses them for the good guys.

What do you guys think???

Mujaffa
maybe jango is master syfa-dias

Corran
Sifo-Dyas had not been seen for nearly 10 years, since he made the order. Jango was living Kaminoans and was who the clones were cloned from - I don't think it was he.

Mujaffa
hey it's just a teory

Corran
Yes, and mine is just an opinion from what I have seen, your theory could be right and I could be wrong - we'll just have to wait and see.

Emperor Helmet
And wait a long time, we will.

Ushgarak
Fat chance. No way is Jango a Jedi, in any form. Nor would he have needed to have been hired by anyone for that job.

queeq
Jango a Jedi? WOOOHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... I guess JarJar's a Jedi too then.

sarlacc
doubtfull, but it could explain that weird ass look mace has on his face after killing jango.

sarlacc
itake that back, just remembered that mace saw jangos face when he first talked to dooku. now i say its very doubtfull, or damn near impossible unless GL has lost his mind.

Budgie
I think that master syfa-dias was in fact a jedi all along and was probably tricked or forced into ordering the clones by dooku ten years ago. He was probably told that a jedi would be used as the basis for the clones and that is why he agreed to do it but was killed by dooku before he could select a subject. At that point, dooku chose jango fett to be the subject at the request of sidious.

This would explain the the look on windu and yoda when obiwan mentions syfa-dias. They maybe know there was a duel between dooku and dias and that dooku won it. Maybe they have always wondered why they fought each other and the answer has become clear to them. This would also explain why dooku has been banished form the jedi order and is on geonosis. (He has been banished because he killed another jedi).

Sidious has been keeping tabs on the clones during the ten years through jango fett and then dooku but his plan goes **** up when the jedi discover the clones and yoda uses them for the good guys.

What do you guys think???

Ushgarak
It's plausible, but I think the main problem is that Windu would not have so easily discounted Dooku as a suspect for the bombing if they knew that sort of thing WAS in his character after all.

King Jedi
Storywise, the Sifo-Dyas idea has to be tied up or explained in Ep3. I've only seen AOTC once but are these the facts? Correct me if I'm wrong:

1. The Jedi think Dooku left for political reasons. Kai Adi- Mundi calls him a "political idealist" and Mace refuses to believe that he is trying to kill Padme. Mace still considers Dooku a Jedi.

2. After TPM, Sidious ditched the trade federation.

3. The Trade Federation went to Dooku for help.

4. Dooku is secretly "Darth Tyrannus" and Sidious' new apprentice. So the Trade Federation are still being controlled by Sidious' though they don't know it.

5. Dooku and Sidious are trying to start a war.

6. Jango was hired by "Tyrranus". He doesn't know it's Dooku. Or does he?

7. The Clones were ordered by a Jedi called Sifo-Dyas.

8. The Kaminoans (spe) think they are doing it for the Jedi.

9. The Jedi don't know about it.

10. Sifo-Dyas died 10 years before AOTC. This doesn't mean the clones weren't ordered well before then.

11. Obi-Wan has heard of Sifo-Dyas but doesn't know him. He wasn't even sure if he was dead.

12. Yoda and Mace know Sifo-Dyas.

13. A Jedi erased Kamino from the archives. Presumably it was Sifo-Dyas.

So are we trying to work out who Sifo-Dyas was and what happened to him?

Ushgarak
Well...

6. That depends whether he actually met Tyrannus when he was hired. If he did, then there is no way he can not know that Tyrnanus is Dooku.

10. No, it is specified that the order was placed almost ten years ago.

11. Obi-Wan was as sure as he could be that Sifo-Dyas was dead, but it was only sensible to double check.

And yes to both your questions!

Bespin Bart
Sifo-Dyas created too much arguing. He not only order clones that would start a war, but he's created a war here. big grin

yerssot
perhaps he too is a sort of a Jedi Rebel, like QGJ, and that they therefor think that he was capable of doing it

King Jedi
Well the only Jedi that WE know died 10 years ago was Qui-Gon.

yerssot
and long neck of the JC and perhaps Yaddle

King Jedi
They were just background characters though.

Ushgarak
And we have no reason to think them dead.

yerssot
yup and still not in AOTC..

master harmax
First of all, the Maul is Sifo Dyas theory is ... IMPOSSIBLE. No ways guys ... get real !

Secondly ... the theory that Sifo Dyas secretely ordered the clones, and then died ( or was killed ) is one explanation that is atleast theoretically possible ... but ... I feel that there is much more to it than that ...

It's just too many conincidences, as Ush says ... firstly the similarity between Sifo Dyas and Sideous ... the shifty glances of Yoda and Windu at the mention of his name by Obi Wan .....

lemmee think, lemmee think .....

finti
It is obviously that Yoda and Mace holds something back about the Sifo Dyas dude

Gundark
Something they're not going to share with Obi Wan obviously. Until its probably too late.

finti
never to late to tango big grin

queeq
To Jango?

And I think Jango did know Tyrannus. They seemed pretty okay with each other standing there in the arena.

finti
Yeah partners in crime, Jango being Dooku`s lakei

queeq
Indeed.

King Jedi
Dooku or Tyranus?

Mujaffa
Tyranus Is Dooku

yerssot
That's not try! That's impossible!

queeq
No, it's not.

yerssot
like infinities end?

Viseus
Would it be possible for Supreme Chancellor Palpatine to order Sifo-Dyas to make the arrangements with the clones, without the Jedi Council knowing? If so, it would be easy to have him killed afterwards, by himself or Count Dooku. This supposedly shifty look on Yoda and Mace Windu's faces could simply be a "hm, something fishy going on here" look.

Another possibility is of course that Sifo-Dyas fell to the dark side of the force, thus "dying" in the eyes of the Jedi. This is after all the same thing Obi-Wan told Luke Skywalker about Anakin. This would also explain the look on the masters' faces.

I find it very unlikely that Mr Mysterious is actually any of the other characters we have seen so far. If he is still alive, I suspect he will appear as a new Sith apprentice in the next movie.

Captain REX
But Dooku is still alive, so that wouldn't work.

Viseus
What?

finti
He means that Dooku is the Sith apprentice and there are only two Siths at a time

Emperor Helmet
Only 2 there are. That is why I believe Sifo-Dyas is Maul.

Viseus
Ah. Details. He wouldin't have to be a true Sith. Just some lower apprentice. Besides, I'm sure the ambitious Palpatine wouldn't let an old rule like that stand in his way. According to EU sources, he had many Dark Side Adepts on Byss, didn't he?

mah
EU matters not

Ushgarak
Palpatine will stick to that rule.

Buit it is SO clearly not Maul; I don't know how anyone can believe that.

Budgie
Are we basing this rule solely on Yoda saying there are only two siths, no more, no less.

This suggests that there has only ever been two siths at any one time in the history of the galaxy. This can't make sense.

Mace Windu says in TPM that he believed all the siths were eliminated and this suggests a large number once were around.

Therefore, it is entirely possible for there to be more than two siths and THEREFORE Syfo Dias could now be a sith lord along with Sidious and Tyrannus. (providing we are only basing the rule on yoda's speech!)

Emperor Helmet
My whole point is that I believe that Maul was once a Jedi. It sticks to Sidious's use of former Jedi for Apprentices. Rick McCallum had mentioned before that Maul's tattoo's were important and that he couldn't discuss their meaning. Maybe that is why Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan don't recognize him. They also may have never met him. Yoda and Mace never saw Maul, so they wouldn't have known it was him. This is why I believe they left out the "Lost 20" idea. There is never any hint in AOTC that only a few Jedi have ever left the Order. I mean, hell, Obi-Wan never even met Qui-Gon's master.


It's an interesting twist.

Budgie
I agree helmet, this is a possibility.

Maul could have ordered the clones at the bequest of sidious whilst in his syfo dias role and was to be sidious's main helper in setting up the clone wars. But, he was killed by obiwan and therefore sidious had to turn dooku to the dark side to do the work darth maul was to and thats why it was dooku who hired jango fett and not syfo dias.

A few problems though...

1. Dooku is much more powerful than maul so sidious would have preferred him to maul as his right hand man.

2. In TPM, Maul says that they can finally reveal themselves to the jedi and this suggests they have been in hiding for some time and for the above thery to work syfo dias would have been a jedi up until ten years ago.

Ushgarak
First of all, Budgie, GL has made it cleat that the 'only two' rule stands. It wasn't ALWAYS that way, but when there were more than two they always fought each other too much. So there will ONLY be two.

Secondly, I do not find it in the slightest bit credible that Maul could have been Sifo-Dyas, but that no-one has made the connection.

And I still firmly believe the 'almost ten years' ago timescale of everything places it firmly AFTER TPM.

Viseus
I agree, it's pretty clear that the clones were ordered after Maul was dead. No, I'm quite sure Sifo-Dyas was just some other Jedi Knight(?) in the council, who was either turned to the dark side and ordered to Kamino by Sidious, or not, and ordered there unsuspectingly by Chancellor Palpatine. And wether he's truly dead is also an open question to me. Time will show.

queeq
I think the solution is very simple. It's just a small diversion on Palpy's plot. I don't think we should try to seek too much behind it. All Palpy does is deception. Even the separatists movement isn't there to overthrow the Republic, it's there to destroy all major power structures in the Universe, and to instate emergence powers to Palpy AND to legally own an army he as a Sith can control. This is why the clones replace the droids.

master harmax
Maul = Sifo Dyas ? Get real ! roll eyes (sarcastic)

queeq
Indeed.

sarlacc
why is it that everyone appears to be avoiding the simple possiblity? dyas was a jedi who died 10 years ago, and that his name was given the cloners by palpatine/dooku and he himself has nothing to do with anything. the sith are just using lies and deception to munipulate the situation. i know that possibilities abound but maybe the shifty look with mace and yoda was just the result of the same kind of wonder and confusion that we had about the situation. maybe it was a continuation on the theme of the jedi not being able to see whats going on, the dark side clouding everything.

finti
because it is to obvious....?

yerssot
like Ush said, SW is a simple story

Ushgarak
No-one is avoiding that possibility, sarlaac. It has been mentioned several times.

It fails to account as to why this name was given such prominence in the story (because to be honest, unless there is some deeper relevance to this it was a waste of time including it), why they felt impersonating a dead Jedi was a sensible idea, and what the shifty looks were (and again, if you think it was just their confusion, it was a pointless addition. Besides, it clearly looks stronger than that).

queeq
What Ush said.

SaitouHajime
I think Jayntree's theory, whether right or wrong, on Darth Maul being Sypo-Dyas is a good one. There are plenty of facts to support it, and in all fairness to dispute it also, but that's why it is called a theory. One, they both died around the same time. Two, Qui Gon said he was trained in the jedi arts before he said he was a sith (and i don't even think he said he was a sith). Three, no one saw him that was able to report him other than Obi Wan and its clear that he had never seen Sypo-Dyas, for all we know Qui Gon knew it was Maul and he was keeping quiet about it just like Yoda and Mace could be because they choose to keep it a secret that Sypo-Dyas was still alive but had converted to the dark side. Three, Sypo-Dyas was trained in the old school way of light sabre fighting, maybe that was having a staff sabre with sabre's on both ends like Maul had in order to fight rather than a lone sabre. Four, Sypo-Dyas was a very powerful jedi and after all, it would've taken a very powerful jedi, or sith of course, to kill Qui Gon. Five, Ush you keep arguing about the time period, that Maul was killed after Sypo-Dyas, well maybe they say Sypo-Dyas died almost ten years ago meaning that's when he changed to the dark side and then he did in fact die as Darth Maul. And six of course and it is very very clear that Sidious goes after the jedi's that are in question about what's right and wrong, and ONLY the jedi's, i.e. Dooku and Skywalker, which supports this theory of Maul being Sypo-Dyas or at the least an ex jedi even more.

finti
they knew who syfo dias was and they knew he was killed ten years pripor to AOTC. Qui Gon would have recognized Maul as Syfo when he encountered him

we dont know anything about Syfo Dias

Qui gon didnt know he was a sith, only that he was trained in the jedi ways, thats what puzzeled QGJ.

yerssot
fint... the thing we know is that "Syfo Dias died almost ten years ago" ... that's something wink

and QGJ said that it was a sith because it was the only explanation that could remotely be right, even if everybody knew they were extinct for a millenia, he was indeed very puzzled by it

Ushgarak
Good Lord, I do not believe people brought this outdated fossil up!

It's not a theory, it cannot be realistically backed; it is a hypothesis at best and not a great one.

SaitouHajime
Ush, spare me with the "not a great one" statement and theory and hypothesis are synonyms so you contradicted yourself. Finti, you basically just restated what I said in a counterargument which would therefore support what I said. Qui Gon would have most likely known that Maul was Sypo-Dyas if indeed he was, that's why I said maybe he kept it to himself because from the looks of Yoda and Mace, there is obviously something more to this Sypo-Dyas. And Ush you seem like a pretty smart person when it comes to this matter so for you to say that it can't be realistically backed baffles me. There are plenty of connections in this relationship. I'm not here to say that Maul is in fact Sypo-Dyas, I really don't even believe he is whatsoever. However, it's still a good theory considering no one else has really come up with just who Sypo-Dyas is. And NO ONE has yet had a better counterargument that he cannot be Sypo-Dyas. I've only heard people ridicule the theory with absolutely no logical counterargument. So I look forward to someone giving me some "facts" that would demonstrate that he is not Sypo-Dyas.

yerssot
I just checked a few scenes again, especially for you saitouhajime ...

for your theory:
"Master Sifo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago"
and there is ten years between TPM and AOTC, so in other words, Maul was in two pieces already when Sifo-Dyas died and someone else could have taken his place.
"almost ten years ago" is still not "ten years ago", that's an important difference.

QH did say he was a sith, "My only conclusion can be that it was a sith (lord?)" to which Ki Adi responded "Impossible, the sith have been extinct for a millenia."
and that holds no sense to your Maul is Sifo arguement imho,
it was placed there to show the audiance that the Jedi thought the sith died and that in other words they didn't expect a sith to be behind a masterplan to become emperor or what ever.

What makes you think OB1 never saw Sifo-Dyas??? For all you know, they were pretty good friends and all!
And how can QG know it was Maul? did they talked or something? no! they fought and that was it!
And Maul can't be Sifo-Dyas for the simple reason that there are TWENTY Jedi that exciled the order (the latest one was Dooku); as far as we know, Sifo never left the order but died during the call of duty and that's a fact! If you say they did it to keep it quiet, then I can say it was Yaddle who was sifo-dyas! she was a leading member of the jedi council and wasn't around ten years later, perhaps yoda and mace wanted to keep that quiet? I mean, that way with keeping things quiet you can even make JarJar the emperor due to some mind trick he uses to make peopel believe he stands there roll eyes (sarcastic)

How can you know SD was trained old school???? you saw him fighting? and the staf is NOT old school, if anything is old school it's the curved handle of dooku!

your point four: again, he isn't one of the lost 20

for your point five, I already said that ten years ago and "almost ten years ago" as OB1 says it are different and that Maul died before Sifo did.

don't get your point six though
____

there ya go, someone posted some facts out the top of his head to keep this thread ontopic wink

SaitouHajime
Very good counter points yerssot, however I just have a few things to state. Almost ten years doesn't necessarily mean less than ten years, it can mean more than 10 years just as well. I was under the impression that it says in the book that SD was trained in the old school ways of light sabre fighting, I'm almost certain that is correct. Maybe Qui Gon didn't know who SD was, therefore making Maul being SD even more plausable and it's probably accurate that OB1 didn't know SD because he was a padwon at the time and probably didn't interact with all that many jedi other than QG, his master. Ki Adi says the sith have been extinct for so long which would give me the impression that that is true which would mean Maul was most likely an ex jedi and not a born sith. You got a litttle too extreme for my liking about the "keeping it quiet" argument, your counterarguments for that statement was a little ridiculous so I won't bother sayin' anything about Yaddle or JarJar. And as for my sixth point, I was sayin' that Sidious clearly goes after jedi's that can be turned, i.e. Dooku and Skywalker, so by all rights Maul could've also had been an ex jedi. One thing I don't know about it this 20 exiled jedi thing, would anyone care to inform me what that concerns. And we do not know that Sypo wasn't apart of this 20 and that he was killed in the line of duty, it's never said.

Ushgarak
First of all, whoever taught you that a theory and a hypothesis were the same thing does not know his english. Go check your facts- they are entirely different things. I hope it is not the same person who taught you that 'almost ten years ago' can mean 'more than ten years ago'- a self-evidently ridiculous thing to say. Such blatant errors do your credibility no good at all. Almost, by its very definition, means LESS THAN. A hypothesis is an educated guess to try and explain something. A theory is a set of ideas that can be backed with evidence and not contradicted, but cannot be proven. If it can be proven it is a fact.

For example, black holes were a theory when proposed. No-one could prove they existed but they could provide mathematical and astronomical evidence saying that they do exist. Only when we observed their practical effects- and then their existence- did it become fact (though even now some question that)

But Hawking's postulations on what happen INSIDE a black hole- they are hypotheses. They fit what we observe but he can provide no evidence for any of what he says- and cheerfully admits as such.

I have actually presented some very good reasons why Maul is not Sifo-Dyas which I do not intend to waste my time posting all over again having already done so. But as if I even need to prove he is not when it is YOU that needs to prove that he IS, seeing as it is not what the film says and it a very unlikely and objectionable state of affairs. The burden of proof is on you- and if you are going to say that your proof is that they both died around ten years ago, I think all will see that for the untenable nothingness that it is.

The chances of no-one knowing who SD was- despite Obi-Wan clearly knowing a lot about him- are very small and again you would have to work hard to prove such a ridiculous assumption.

It cannot be backed. It is an idea that only JUST fits the facts based on an entirely flimsy and entirely associative- rather than cause and effect- idea, the 'ten years' thing. If it was said in the films, it would be a truth. If you could provide solid evidence that no-one could disprove, it would be a theory and would remain so until we saw if it was true or not in the film. You cannot do that, you can only say it might just possibly fit what we have and even that I would disagree with- that is a simply a working assumption- or a hypothesis. It might fit but without backing it is nothing.

If you are going to say we can accept that sort of thing then I say yerssot is right- it may as well be Yaddle being very clever. Yeah, that is contemptible. But then without more to back it, so is this.

And so please- spare US this vapid nonsense.

(btw, in case you are wandering what I mean by associative evidence- it is like saying that wet pavements cause rain because when pavements are wet it is always raining. That is association, not cause and effect, which is the only valid evidence. That they both died in the same rough period- as did QGJ- is mere association and not evidence.)

yerssot
from dictionary.com, lemma: almost:
"slightly short of; not quite; nearly: almost time to go; was almost asleep; had almost finished"
so, imho, almost still is less then ten years ago

remember, the novel is the only book that's SEMI-canon, meaning the movie can always contradict, don't have it on campus, so soonest I can check is next weekend, sorry

I always was under the impression everyone knew everyone (talking bout the jedi) and I think someone like SD who was a JC member (OB1 said he died, he would have also said that he wasn't a JC member if he wasn't) , so everyone should know him, I think

true about being a padawan and knowing less other jedi though... though if he really was in the JC that shouldn't have been a problem.

see, about your point of Maul being an ex jedi and not born a sith ... there is a quote from GL, though I have to say I don't know it exactly anymore, perhaps someone can help out...
he said that the sith lay low till it was their time to strike and take control of the universe and that time has come during TPM (it's on the TPM DVD somewhere, but I'm not sure if it was on a internet-doc or "the making of"
(oh, and the idea of it being yaddle or jarjar was supposed to be ridiculous to point out I thought your point about it all being a cover-up was rediculous too because mace already wanted to go to the senate to tell that their power to use the force diminished so I doubt they would cover up a fallen jedi)

imho, every jedi can be turned to the dark side, just takes some time for some or a LOT of effort but everyone has emotions which can turn against them if you try hard enough.

ok, the lost 20... it's a scene cut from the movie, but was still filmed, they didn't placed it in the DVD scenes cause it was kinda boring and such, but the lines and such got out on the net ....
see, in the entire order there have only been 20 persons that ever left the order, their statues are in the library, ob1 even looks at one of them when Jocasta Nu asks if he's having a trouble, that one was dooku if memory serves ...
those 20 were the only one that ever left, nothing more nothing less, and dooku was the last one, ten years ago, after the battle of naboo
and that's why most people think it's him, left at the time the order was placed (and very likely the same time kamino got erased)

now to think of it, .... think sw.c named them once in a jc question

yerssot
from the official site about the lost 20:
"Only 20 Jedi have ever voluntarily renounced their commissions. It is with great regret that the Jedi order recognize the so-called "Lost Twenty." A Jedi who fails in his training can be a very serious threat. The dark side of the Force beckons to the impatient, and students in the past have been lured to its call with devastating consequences."

http://www.starwars.com/databank/organization/thejediorder/index.html

Ushgarak
In fact, the amount of serious holes in this theory grow and grow. The time sclaing is all wrong. Maul is dead by the time the Clones are ordered- as GL makes clear, Sidious switches to Clones AFTER the failure of the battle droids. The stuff about old style sabre fighting isn;t canon and does not even have to be considered- the old style reference was, in any case, to Dooku. If you accept such non-canon evidence, I simply show you all the other non-canon stuff that clearly describes Maul's origins and totally rule him out as a Jedi.

When QGJ says Maul is a Sith this should directly contradict the whole theory. QGJ's reasoning is that it is trained in the Jedi arts BUT IS NOT A JEDI. Therefore it can ONLY be a Sith. If there was any possiblity of Maul having been a Jedi, QGJ would have gone there instead, and to say it is more complex than that goes against the very grain of the Star Wars ethic.

QGJ and Obi-Wan and Amidala and all her guards and even Anakin all saw Maul clearly and could describe and identify him. SD was clearly an important Jedi- because Obi-Wan does not dispute that, as yerss points out- the idea that at no point anyone ever clocked the link is ridiculous.

It only takes a good swordfighter to kill QGJ- that Maul was. To present QGJs death as somehow being supprting evidence that SD was Maul is a totally barren exercise.

And dare I even add that plotwise, not only would this be poor, it would also be POINTLESS, and achieve nothing. The Sido-DYas thing is, as I originally said, a bit of a mystery. If he was simply Maul, what the heck was the point in that?

Let's face it, until there is ACTUAL proof rather than just vague assumption this enitre idea is rubbish and to say there has been no logical counterargument almost entirely insulting.

SaitouHajime
Haven't read through everything yet but Ush, look it up, theory and hypothesis are synonyms which is what I said, I didn't say they mean the exact same thing. And no one has really contradicted anything I've said about Maul being SD therefore it is a theory. And the word "almost" means very near, not more or less, therefore it can mean either or so my credibility is by no means in question here. Those two statements above are facts and I'm not here to argue about facts, that's illogical, look it up in your dictionary and thesaurus if you won't take my word for it but i'm fairly certain you already knew this. But anyway, this isn't even my theory, I was just giving it support and the burden of proof is on me but I don't even believe it, therefore, I do not wish to prove it. I was merely saying it was a good theory and there IS evidence to support it no matter what anyone says. I respect your input on Star War Ush, but please don't lecture me on what is a theory and what is not. I haven't read through this whole forum yet and if you have given good counterarguments, then I'm sure I will come across them.

Ushgarak
Right, they are NOT synonyms. Sorry, they are NOT. They have entirely different meanings and I used them as such. It is NOT a theory. It is a hypothesis. Lack of contradiction does NOT a theory make. If a hypothesis only existed in that it could be contradicted it would be pointless to make one.

Almost means 'not quite'. When talking in the past tense, when you say something happened almost 'x' amount of time ago, you mean it does not quite reach that. This is basic English, and if you are no good at that it is not my problem but it certainly is yours.

I don't need to take your word for it because I know with much certainty how wrong you are. Your statements are NOT facts, they are untruths and that is the end of it.

yerssot
let's run this again...
Maul died exactly ten years ago, right?
Sifo died ALMOST ten years ago, right?

that makes Maul died before Sifo?

Ushgarak
Absolutely.

Ushgarak
Anyway, if this theory is not actively being supported, and nothing new is being added, it seems rather pointless- the argument is all said and done on both sides. Closing.

If anyone has any fresh evidence on this issue please feel free to open a new thread.

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