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Power duels, eh?

Maul would give Mace trouble, but ROTJ Vader is puny compared to either.

Mace would win, but it would be a vicious fight.

Mace Windu.

to easy i say maul and vader. vader commands the force very well were maul dosent and maul commands the saber well were vader doesnt.

But good question gets u thinking

Originally posted by Baston Alveron
to easy i say maul and vader. vader commands the force very well were maul dosent and maul commands the saber well were vader doesnt.

Vader can force grip...wow! That shows great command of the force alright. Oh and yea I forgot...he can throw things! Incredible...

LOL, and how does Mual give Mace a hard fight? Huh, what, Janus what are u talking about.

holy crap darth vader and darth maul will kick ass

Maul would give Mace trouble, but not much. Vader wouldn't be any trouble. Mace versus Vader is like sandblasting a soup cracker.

Originally posted by {DR3AM3R]
holy crap darth vader and darth maul will kick ass

HUH!? Are you out of your mind!!

This post needs a picture.

Sure thing..

Perfect.

u guys im honest the weiner who says all vader can do is grip and throw things is a moron and not a starwars fan, because a fan would have a deeper understanding of the force. oh yea u dont tell me if vader kept shocking mace and maul kept striking they wouldnt win.

Originally posted by Baston Alveron
u guys im honest the weiner who says all vader can do is grip and throw things is a moron and not a starwars fan, because a fan would have a deeper understanding of the force. oh yea u dont tell me if vader kept shocking mace and maul kept striking they wouldnt win.

You calling me a weiner? Hahahahahahaha.........

Here's Vader's secret wish...

lol connects to the picture in the right way.

*sigh* Vader could probably beat mace by himself, adding maul is overkill.

Originally posted by darthrevan89
You calling me a weiner? Hahahahahahaha.........

Although using name calling was uncalled for he was right.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Although using name calling was uncalled for he was right.

What do you mean he is right?

Originally posted by darthrevan89
What do you mean he is right?

Vader is not weak.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
*sigh* Vader could probably beat mace by himself, adding maul is overkill.

(sarcasm?) Vader can beat Mace? (Excuse me)

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
*sigh* Vader could probably beat mace by himself, adding maul is overkill.

Wow, this is ridiculously unfounded. Besides the fact that you are a Vader/Sidious fan, what rationalization do you have for Darh Vader by himself being able to beat Mace? Seriously... It's not even possible.

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
(sarcasm?) Vader can beat Mace? (Excuse me)

Show me your vast knowledge and debate skills to counter my statement and support your sarcasm.

Let me get this across better.

FACT- Pre-suit Anakin was no match for Mace Windu, considering he could not even defeat Obi-Wan Kenobi in combat.

FACT- Suited vader is weaker by a LOT, as said by Lucas himself.

FACT- Mace Windu is fast and deadly.

FACT- Darth Vader is slow and mostly robotic.

FACT- Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi was able to keep pace with Maul, someone who is nowhere near Mace's skill at his best.

CONCLUSION- Mace wins this battle.

James Earl Jones has a cooler voice then Samuel Jackson. Therefore, Vader wins.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Wow, this is ridiculously unfounded. Besides the fact that you are a Vader/Sidious fan, what rationalization do you have for Darh Vader by himself being able to beat Mace? Seriously... It's not even possible.

Well my analysis of this fight is ROTJ vader>ROTS vader(Ive explained this many times) and you know ROTS vader would atleast give mace a good fight. Im not saying vader would for sure beat mace it would be close but in this case maul is added into the equation so sith win.

I can't say I agree. ROTS Vader can't rightly be called a match for Obi-Wan, and Mace is far greater than Obi-Wan. Mace had Sidious at his mercy, whereas Obi-Wan was not even good enough in Yoda's eyes to challange the Sith lord. And ROTJ Vader is not better than his younger counterpart in anything but perhaps artificial strength and wisdom, and that won't be enough to keep Mace from schooling his ass. And Maul is not enough to tip the scales against the Jedi master.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Let me get this across better.

FACT- Pre-suit Anakin was no match for Mace Windu, considering he could not even defeat Obi-Wan Kenobi in combat.

FACT- Suited vader is weaker by a LOT, as said by Lucas himself.

FACT- Mace Windu is fast and deadly.

FACT- Darth Vader is slow and mostly robotic.

FACT- Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi was able to keep pace with Maul, someone who is nowhere near Mace's skill at his best.

CONCLUSION- Mace wins this battle.

1.How do you know obi wan is considerably weaker than mace?

2.his POTENTIAL is lowered, but vader makes up for it in dark side knowledge and actual experience instead of raw potential.

3.Yeah mace windu is pretty fast

4.70s movie making, if george lucas remade the fight scenes he would be as fast as everyone else.

5.Maul owned young obi, obi just got that cheap shot in due to mauls arrogance.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Let me get this across better.

FACT- Pre-suit Anakin was no match for Mace Windu, considering he could not even defeat Obi-Wan Kenobi in combat.

FACT- Suited vader is weaker by a LOT, as said by Lucas himself.

FACT- Mace Windu is fast and deadly.

FACT- Darth Vader is slow and mostly robotic.

FACT- Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi was able to keep pace with Maul, someone who is nowhere near Mace's skill at his best.

CONCLUSION- Mace wins this battle.

He stole most of the words right out of my mouth.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1.How do you know obi wan is considerably weaker than mace?

2.his POTENTIAL is lowered, but vader makes up for it in dark side knowledge and actual experience instead of raw potential.

3.Yeah mace windu is pretty fast

4.70s movie making, if george lucas remade the fight scenes he would be as fast as everyone else.

5.Maul owned young obi, obi just got that cheap shot in due to mauls arrogance.


1.)Shoot youself.

2.)Knowledge? What force grip and force throw....He is not making up for anything, he becomes weaker ands slower. Watch the movies.

3.)At least you agree with something.

4.)Umm, was GG fast in his fights? no! he was just quick with his robo arms but vader couldent do that, so he still remains slow.

5.)Maul landed the cheap foce push to stop Obi wans fury, cuz Mual couldent hold on with one lightsaber. And he would possibly be killed. So that push was his only chance. And Maul saw obi wan flip over him so he could have countered it.

Maul mist have been fantasizing for a minute when Obi-wan got him.

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
1.)Shoot youself.

2.)Knowledge? What force grip and force throw....He is not making up for anything, he becomes weaker ands slower. Watch the movies.

3.)At least you agree with something.

4.)Umm, was GG fast in his fights? no! he was just quick with his robo arms but vader couldent do that, so he still remains slow.

5.)Maul landed the cheap foce push to stop Obi wans fury, cuz Mual couldent hold on with one lightsaber. And he would possibly be killed. So that push was his only chance. And Maul saw obi wan flip over him so he could have countered it.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Mace had Sidious at his mercy.

Heres the problem, your right if mace actually had sidious at his mercy mace would obviously be stronger than vader because vader is 80% of sidious as said by GL, but mace did not beat palpatine. This attempt to sway you is probably in vain but Ill give you a look at how maces victory being legit would screw up the star wars universe.

1. Mace>dooku, Dooku is sidious's apprentice so is therefore weaker than sidious, mace is stronger than dooku? Dooku has beaten mace before when he was lightside, hes only gotten stronger.

2.Mace>yoda, At best for Yoda he tied palpatine, that means mace is stronger than yoda? Yeah right... mace says himself hes much weaker than yoda for gods sake.

3.Depa Billaba>palpatine, Depa beat mace in shatterpoint he even says she displayed swordmanship greater than his own, does that mean depa could beat sidious? No way in hell...

4.Kar Vastor>palpatine, Kar too beat mace, does that mean the untrained lor pelek could also beat beat sidious?


As you can see none of these are true, adding to the point why would you have the prophecy at all if mace was able to kick palpatines ass anyways? Does the name skywalker mean nothing anymore?

Also wouldnt it be totally in character for palpatine to do something like this? He played the whole damn thing, in the book he records the jedi threats and uses it against them, he then preceeds to whipe out maces bodygaurds but save mace for when anakin walks in, he then pretends to lose and uses his own lightning to scar his face for further evidence against the jedi, with palps on the ground and maces saber at his throat anakin would be faced with a choice and palpatine had already forseen which choice he would make.
Masterfully done.

Yoda is the only one in ROTS with a shot at palpatine, mace is powerful but hes not even in the same league as palpatine, that palps could toy with mace the way he did is a point for palps if anything.

Therefore if you want to take my argument into account it means sidious>mace, Im not sure how much weaker mace is compared to palpatine but ill be generous and say somewhere around 80%, well thats where vader is too so it would be a close match. Add maul into the equation and like I said the sith win.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1.How do you know obi wan is considerably weaker than mace?

2.his POTENTIAL is lowered, but vader makes up for it in dark side knowledge and actual experience instead of raw potential.

3.Yeah mace windu is pretty fast

4.70s movie making, if george lucas remade the fight scenes he would be as fast as everyone else.

5.Maul owned young obi, obi just got that cheap shot in due to mauls arrogance.

1. Mace was a Jedi master when Obi-Wan was still a padawan. Mace utilized a form that was aggressive and capable of destroying other duellist easier than Soresu's slow approach. Mace Windu was second on the council and was revered for his skill and ability. I thought it was quite obvious. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

2) What darkside knowledge? Where does he demonstrate ability beyond Mace in the OT?

3)Hence "Vaapad".

4)Speculation and a poor excuse for Vader's lack of powers. This was already debated and decided long before you or I came to this forum.

5) Watch the fight again.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Heres the problem, your right if mace actually had sidious at his mercy mace would obviously be stronger than vader because vader is 80% of sidious as said by GL, but mace did not beat palpatine. This attempt to sway you is probably in vain but Ill give you a look at how maces victory being legit would screw up the star wars universe.

1. Mace>dooku, Dooku is sidious's apprentice so is therefore weaker than sidious, mace is stronger than dooku? Dooku has beaten mace before when he was lightside, hes only gotten stronger.

2.Mace>yoda, At best for Yoda he tied palpatine, that means mace is stronger than yoda? Yeah right... mace says himself hes much weaker than yoda for gods sake.

3.Depa Billaba>palpatine, Depa beat mace in shatterpoint he even says she displayed swordmanship greater than his own, does that mean depa could beat sidious? No way in hell...

4.Kar Vastor>palpatine, Kar too beat mace, does that mean the untrained lor pelek could also beat beat sidious?


As you can see none of these are true, adding to the point why would you have the prophecy at all if mace was able to kick palpatines ass anyways? Does the name skywalker mean nothing anymore?

Also wouldnt it be totally in character for palpatine to do something like this? He played the whole damn thing, in the book he records the jedi threats and uses it against them, he then preceeds to whipe out maces bodygaurds but save mace for when anakin walks in, he then pretends to lose and uses his own lightning to scar his face for further evidence against the jedi, with palps on the ground and maces saber at his throat anakin would be faced with a choice and palpatine had already forseen which choice he would make.
Masterfully done.

Yoda is the only one in ROTS with a shot at palpatine, mace is powerful but hes not even in the same league as palpatine, that palps could toy with mace the way he did is a point for palps if anything.

Therefore if you want to take my argument into account it means sidious>mace, Im not sure how much weaker mace is compared to palpatine but ill be generous and say somewhere around 80%, well thats where vader is too so it would be a close match. Add maul into the equation and like I said the sith win.



You SADLY underestimate Windu.

Originally posted by Darth Windu


You SADLY underestimate Windu.

How so? I held my tongue from saying vader would own windu and told the most likely conclusion that it would be a close match. Read my post for reasons.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1.How do you know obi wan is considerably weaker than mace?

2.his POTENTIAL is lowered, but vader makes up for it in dark side knowledge and actual experience instead of raw potential.

3.Yeah mace windu is pretty fast

4.70s movie making, if george lucas remade the fight scenes he would be as fast as everyone else.

5.Maul owned young obi, obi just got that cheap shot in due to mauls arrogance.

1) What Janus said, but one more thing. Mace was on the Council BEFORE Obi-Wan was even chosen to be a Padawan. Only just, but there you have it.

2) I somewhat agree. I think the OT Vader is more powerful in raw power and Force Technique, but look how much that helped him against Luke. I'd say Vader would fall to his pre-suit self.

3) And as Janus would say "Black Jedi have rhythm."

4) True, but that doesn't stop Luke from being fairly badass in his own right.

5) Obi had Maul on his back. Literally. He chopped his saber in half. He had him retreating at the beginning and at a standstill for the duration of the their fight. Face it dude, Obi's badass. And that was no cheap shot. Obi was slick. And Maul was retarded. BUt that was only Padawan Obi. Look how good he gets by ROTS. And Mace would beat him down even then. Mace is considered Dooku's equal by Yoda. Dooku chucked Obi into a wall with impetuous ease.

And Janus, when you said Yoda didn't even see Obi as worth challenging Sidious. . . true, but in a bashing way. Yoda knew that Obi would most likely fall in the process, and that it would be a waste to have Yoda himself take Anakin when Obi was there. Same as yours, just nicer to the ninja. And now, let's find someone other than Great Vengeance to bash.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Heres the problem, your right if mace actually had sidious at his mercy mace would obviously be stronger than vader because vader is 80% of sidious as said by GL, but mace did not beat palpatine. This attempt to sway you is probably in vain but Ill give you a look at how maces victory being legit would screw up the star wars universe.

1. Mace>dooku, Dooku is sidious's apprentice so is therefore weaker than sidious, mace is stronger than dooku? Dooku has beaten mace before when he was lightside, hes only gotten stronger.

2.Mace>yoda, At best for Yoda he tied palpatine, that means mace is stronger than yoda? Yeah right... mace says himself hes much weaker than yoda for gods sake.

3.Depa Billaba>palpatine, Depa beat mace in shatterpoint he even says she displayed swordmanship greater than his own, does that mean depa could beat sidious? No way in hell...

4.Kar Vastor>palpatine, Kar too beat mace, does that mean the untrained lor pelek could also beat beat sidious?


As you can see none of these are true, adding to the point why would you have the prophecy at all if mace was able to kick palpatines ass anyways? Does the name skywalker mean nothing anymore?

Also wouldnt it be totally in character for palpatine to do something like this? He played the whole damn thing, in the book he records the jedi threats and uses it against them, he then preceeds to whipe out maces bodygaurds but save mace for when anakin walks in, he then pretends to lose and uses his own lightning to scar his face for further evidence against the jedi, with palps on the ground and maces saber at his throat anakin would be faced with a choice and palpatine had already forseen which choice he would make.
Masterfully done.

Yoda is the only one in ROTS with a shot at palpatine, mace is powerful but hes not even in the same league as palpatine, that palps could toy with mace the way he did is a point for palps if anything.

Therefore if you want to take my argument into account it means sidious>mace, Im not sure how much weaker mace is compared to palpatine but ill be generous and say somewhere around 80%, well thats where vader is too so it would be a close match. Add maul into the equation and like I said the sith win.

1) Where's the evidence that says Dooku was weaker? Apprentice<Master is not always the case... And besides, Dooku was a Makashi master, who practiced a saber fighting designed for saber-to-saber combat. By all accounts, Sidious' style is Ataru or Niman on crack.

2) I know you don't want to admit this because Sidious and Vader are your favorite characters, but Yoda was clearly more than a match for Sidious, and it took Sidious fighting from the higher ground and a rather fortunate move that broke Yoda's lightsaber and sent him falling too far to come back up. But in a more fair enivonment, Yoda would probably win. Now, if Sidious had sabered Yoda, even a wound, I would say your argument warrants consideration... but really, it's just ridiculous. That's like saying I shot an archer from atop a guard tower and we're equal.

3) Obviously you took this out of context... Mace was trying not to murder his former apprentice, and she was drawing on the darkside, twisting Vaapad and taking the advantage. Note that Luke draws on the darkside and beats down Vader in ROTJ. Doing so can give you a temporary boost. But depa>Mace is as stupid an argument as ever been on this board.

4) Who the hell is this and why is this the first time I've heard of him?

5) The prophecy is a plot element. It doesn't apply in the versus thread. Please take yourself over to the episode 1-6 forums if you feel the need to rely on the prophecy. And Skywalker means ****all here, since the prophecy and all this other crap spewed forth by Skywalker fans never holds up to rational scrutinisation.

6) As much as I hate to call on an EU source in an EU subforum, the Episode III book is like the Sidious/Vader fanboy's bible. It discredits Mace, makes Anakina and Sidious look like god, and ever so carefully adds crap to the movies without contradicting them. However, since there wasn't any mention of this bullshit in-movie, it goes one of two ways: either Mace won as we all saw; or you buy the book, and Mace was allowed to win. Either way, Sidious is on a whole nother level compared to mecha-Vader, so the argument is kinda moot in this case.

7) I have two glasses. Both are 805 full. One's full of gasoline, the other water. Which one is gonna hurt you more? Please, let's drop the 80% bullshit. Vader is slow, his Force mastery is weak, and he cannot contend with a Jedi master like Mace windu. You have no evidence to support that he can, and all you're doing is running around in circles...

I read it. But it is very likely that Mace is 80% of Sidious. Perhaps slightly more. If Yoda was only just above Sidious, or his equal, I don't think MAce could have been 20% weaker. And don't forget, this is Windu. He'll do what's necessary to win, even if that means killing. ALl he needs to do is take Maul out ofr a moment, and then take some time to shatter Vader's suit. With either blade or Force. And read my post for Maul.

Originally posted by Darth Windu
1) What Janus said, but one more thing. Mace was on the Council BEFORE Obi-Wan was even chosen to be a Padawan. Only just, but there you have it.

2) I somewhat agree. I think the OT Vader is more powerful in raw power and Force Technique, but look how much that helped him against Luke. I'd say Vader would fall to his pre-suit self.

3) And as Janus would say "Black Jedi have rhythm."

4) True, but that doesn't stop Luke from being fairly badass in his own right.

5) Obi had Maul on his back. Literally. He chopped his saber in half. He had him retreating at the beginning and at a standstill for the duration of the their fight. Face it dude, Obi's badass. And that was no cheap shot. Obi was slick. And Maul was retarded. BUt that was only Padawan Obi. Look how good he gets by ROTS. And Mace would beat him down even then. Mace is considered Dooku's equal by Yoda. Dooku chucked Obi into a wall with impetuous ease.

And Janus, when you said Yoda didn't even see Obi as worth challenging Sidious. . . true, but in a bashing way. Yoda knew that Obi would most likely fall in the process, and that it would be a waste to have Yoda himself take Anakin when Obi was there. Same as yours, just nicer to the ninja. And now, let's find someone other than Great Vengeance to bash.

1. Well yeah Im not saying mace isnt stronger than obi but I dont thinks hes THAT much stronger.

2.To lose to luke isnt anything to be ashamed of.

3.I cant argue this.

4.Yes luke is a badass.

5.Obi got maul on his back for like 4 secs but when maul decided to actually fight he knocked obi into the reactor shaft. And maul could of easily followed up and used a force push to knock obi all the way down but like I said maul was arrogant, or maybe it was the trademark obi luck.

Maul would have defeated Obi were it not for his arrogance, yes. But admit it, Obi had Maul on his back, and had him retreating for the beginning of the fight. Maul actually gained no ground. He stood and was forced to back up or counter-attack. Maul got a good kick on Obi, but I'd say the Padawan's saber-strike was better. And Maul didn't get knocked down or pushed back for no reason. This can't be argued. Obi was just that good. And that's merely a fraction of what Mace could have done. A fraction. Windu could have taken Jinn and Kenobi himself, and fairly easily.

Originally posted by Darth Windu
Maul would have defeated Obi were it not for his arrogance, yes. But admit it, Obi had Maul on his back, and had him retreating for the beginning of the fight. Maul actually gained no ground. He stood and was forced to back up or counter-attack. Maul got a good kick on Obi, but I'd say the Padawan's saber-strike was better. And Maul didn't get knocked down or pushed back for no reason. This can't be argued. Obi was just that good. And that's merely a fraction of what Mace could have done. A fraction. Windu could have taken Jinn and Kenobi himself, and fairly easily.

Maul isnt one of the big dogs here but hes strong enough to tip the scales.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
1) Where's the evidence that says Dooku was weaker? Apprentice<Master is not always the case... And besides, Dooku was a Makashi master, who practiced a saber fighting designed for saber-to-saber combat. By all accounts, Sidious' style is Ataru or Niman on crack.

2) I know you don't want to admit this because Sidious and Vader are your favorite characters, but Yoda was clearly more than a match for Sidious, and it took Sidious fighting from the higher ground and a rather fortunate move that broke Yoda's lightsaber and sent him falling too far to come back up. But in a more fair enivonment, Yoda would probably win. Now, if Sidious had sabered Yoda, even a wound, I would say your argument warrants consideration... but really, it's just ridiculous. That's like saying I shot an archer from atop a guard tower and we're equal.

3) Obviously you took this out of context... Mace was trying not to murder his former apprentice, and she was drawing on the darkside, twisting Vaapad and taking the advantage. Note that Luke draws on the darkside and beats down Vader in ROTJ. Doing so can give you a temporary boost. But depa>Mace is as stupid an argument as ever been on this board.

4) Who the hell is this and why is this the first time I've heard of him?

5) The prophecy is a plot element. It doesn't apply in the versus thread. Please take yourself over to the episode 1-6 forums if you feel the need to rely on the prophecy. And Skywalker means ****all here, since the prophecy and all this other crap spewed forth by Skywalker fans never holds up to rational scrutinisation.

6) As much as I hate to call on an EU source in an EU subforum, the Episode III book is like the Sidious/Vader fanboy's bible. It discredits Mace, makes Anakina and Sidious look like god, and ever so carefully adds crap to the movies without contradicting them. However, since there wasn't any mention of this bullshit in-movie, it goes one of two ways: either Mace won as we all saw; or you buy the book, and Mace was allowed to win. Either way, Sidious is on a whole nother level compared to mecha-Vader, so the argument is kinda moot in this case.

7) I have two glasses. Both are 805 full. One's full of gasoline, the other water. Which one is gonna hurt you more? Please, let's drop the 80% bullshit. Vader is slow, his Force mastery is weak, and he cannot contend with a Jedi master like Mace windu. You have no evidence to support that he can, and all you're doing is running around in circles...


1.Theres no way dooku is stronger than sidious just give it up, in the ROTS novelization(heheh) dooku says among other things sidious is"beyond power, a horizon on the force, darkness beyond darkness" you dont talk about somone that way if there weaker than you.

2. The sidious-yoda fight was a tie at best for yoda, and if mace actually beat sidious that means mace>yoda correct? But wait mace>yoda is complete bs...

3.When mace said this he was refering to when they battled akks on nar shadaa, she displayed greater swordsmanship than his own and she was using the lightside. Depa may have been using the darkside in their duel together but it doesnt really matter she still won, you dont handicap ragnos because he used the dark side do you?

4.Kar vastor, convenient you knew about him earlier but just suddenly forgot about him.

5.What you say goes against GL and what GL says is the only absolute evidence we have.

6.The ep III novelization is went through word for word by GL, he intended to make sidious look good because guess what? Sidious is that damn clever and powerful.

7. GL said it himself vader is 80% of the emperor that is fact. And stop using lame excuses like vader is"slow and weak" you know thats just being bias and doesnt add anything to the argument.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1.Theres no way dooku is stronger than sidious just give it up, in the ROTS novelization(heheh) dooku says among other things sidious is"beyond power, a horizon on the force, darkness beyond darkness" you dont talk about somone that way if there weaker than you.

2. The sidious-yoda fight was a tie at best for yoda, and if mace actually beat sidious that means mace>yoda correct? But wait mace>yoda is complete bs...

3.When mace said this he was refering to when they battled akks on nar shadaa, she displayed greater swordsmanship than his own and she was using the lightside. Depa may have been using the darkside in their duel together but it doesnt really matter she still won, you dont handicap ragnos because he used the dark side do you?

4.Kar vastor, convenient you knew about him earlier but just suddenly forgot about him.

5.What you say goes against GL and what GL says is the only absolute evidence we have.

6.The ep III novelization is went through word for word by GL, he intended to make sidious look good because guess what? Sidious is that damn clever and powerful.

7. GL said it himself vader is 80% of the emperor that is fact. And stop using lame excuses like vader is"slow and weak" you know thats just being bias and doesnt add anything to the argument.


I wish you would stop talking about the damn Episode III Book as if it was Gospel.

Thinks happened in the book that didn't happen in the movie and things were changed around.

The Novelization has NO PART WHATSOEVER with Lucas AT ALL.

It isn't Canon. It's impossible to be CANON at all.

Jeez, Vengeance, give it up. You KNOW that Mace could take either Maul or Vader out of the fight temporarily witha good Force Push in the ilk of Kenobi's on Grievous. This would work better on Maul, as Vader's Raw Power would assist his deflection of this attack.

Originally posted by LordSorgo
I wish you would stop talking about the damn Episode III Book as if it was Gospel.

Thinks happened in the book that didn't happen in the movie and things were changed around.

The Novelization has NO PART WHATSOEVER with Lucas AT ALL.

It isn't Canon. It's impossible to be CANON at all.

Do some research buddy, the ROTS novelization is 100% lucas approved he checked it word for word.

Originally posted by Darth Windu
Jeez, Vengeance, give it up. You KNOW that Mace could take either Maul or Vader out of the fight temporarily witha good Force Push in the ilk of Kenobi's on Grievous. This would work better on Maul, as Vader's Raw Power would assist his deflection of this attack.

How would you take out a sith lord with just one force push? This is rediculous.

TEMPORARY. Read the post. Did you see ROTS? If you did, you would have seen Obi throw Grievous fifty feet into the air with one push. Obi. Maul's Force attack pushed Obi onto his back, and slid him across the floor. I wonder. If Maul's Push did squat, and Obi's threw a guy a through the air and onto a catwalk, and Mace is stronger than the guy who threw Grievous, wouldn't that mean Mace could chuck Maul around like hell? Yes. Maul's Force would add some resistance, but not nearly enough. Mace would throw him down and incapacitate him for a few moments, and take the time to eradicate Vader by shattering his suit through saber or Force, preferably the former.

The sidious-yoda fight was a tie at best for yoda, and if mace actually beat sidious that means mace>yoda correct? But wait mace>yoda is complete bs...


Holy....


YODA LOST AGAINST SIDIOUS!

How hard is that to understand? Honestly!

And comparing other people because one lost to the same individual in a fight is just stupid.

Anything can happen on the Battlefield.

Say Yoda and Mace were fighting....

Just because Yoda was beat by Sidious and Mace beat Sidious doesn't mean Mace will beat Yoda.

Originally posted by LordSorgo
The sidious-yoda fight was a tie at best for yoda, and if mace actually beat sidious that means mace>yoda correct? But wait mace>yoda is complete bs...


Holy....


YODA LOST AGAINST SIDIOUS!

How hard is that to understand? Honestly!

And comparing other people because one lost to the same individual in a fight is just stupid.

Anything can happen on the Battlefield.

Say Yoda and Mace were fighting....

Just because Yoda was beat by Sidious and Mace beat Sidious doesn't mean Mace will beat Yoda.

What are you talking about, sure I think sidious won also but Im saying it was a tie to be generous, and If a>b and b>c then a>c that isnt hard to understand.

Originally posted by Darth Windu
TEMPORARY. Read the post. Did you see ROTS? If you did, you would have seen Obi throw Grievous fifty feet into the air with one push. Obi. Maul's Force attack pushed Obi onto his back, and slid him across the floor. I wonder. If Maul's Push did squat, and Obi's threw a guy a through the air and onto a catwalk, and Mace is stronger than the guy who threw Grievous, wouldn't that mean Mace could chuck Maul around like hell? Yes. Maul's Force would add some resistance, but not nearly enough. Mace would throw him down and incapacitate him for a few moments, and take the time to eradicate Vader by shattering his suit through saber or Force, preferably the former.

Obi-wan threw a non-force user...okay your right I should just stop I know when Im beaten.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1.Theres no way dooku is stronger than sidious just give it up, in the ROTS novelization(heheh) dooku says among other things sidious is"beyond power, a horizon on the force, darkness beyond darkness" you dont talk about somone that way if there weaker than you.

2. The sidious-yoda fight was a tie at best for yoda, and if mace actually beat sidious that means mace>yoda correct? But wait mace>yoda is complete bs...

3.When mace said this he was refering to when they battled akks on nar shadaa, she displayed greater swordsmanship than his own and she was using the lightside. Depa may have been using the darkside in their duel together but it doesnt really matter she still won, you dont handicap ragnos because he used the dark side do you?

4.Kar vastor, convenient you knew about him earlier but just suddenly forgot about him.

5.What you say goes against GL and what GL says is the only absolute evidence we have.

6.The ep III novelization is went through word for word by GL, he intended to make sidious look good because guess what? Sidious is that damn clever and powerful.

7. GL said it himself vader is 80% of the emperor that is fact. And stop using lame excuses like vader is"slow and weak" you know thats just being bias and doesnt add anything to the argument.

Off with the kid's gloves, Vengeance... You're becoming a thorn in our sides...

1) The ROTS novelisation is barely Eu-level quasi-canon, since it contradicts the movies in several places, one of which was reminded to me about Ki Fisto's head being taken and put on Sidious' desk. The novelisation is a fanboy's bible and it holds about as much weight with me as wet toiletpaper holds a river.

2) If a dog can kill you with a lucky bite to the neck, but the same dog couldn't kill a fly, is You<dog<fly logically correct? didn't think so. Try a logics class.

3) Again, you're taking things out of context. If Obi-Wan says Anakin is strong and wise and smart, is it neccessarily true? No. And Mace is proud of his padawan, and saw good talent in her that day and reflected as such. Is she better? No. He trained her, not the other way around. Mace has knowledge and experience with a lightsaber Depa can't even fathom. So again, bad logic.

4) I've never even pretended to know who the hell this person is, so don't mistake me.

5) This is a line of bullshit.

6) GL went through it word by word? Prove up. That's what I say. Prove the **** up.

7) GL said Vader is 80% of the Force potential and power of Sidious, not that he is 80% the swordsman. Again, taken out of context and twisted to fit your own biased, fanboyisn needs. Great Vengeance, your logic is on a whole new level of untrue, I swear.

Last thing tonight. . . Rating Time!

Dueling Skill

Mace- 10
Maul- 6
Vader- 6

Force Mastery

Mace- 8
Maul- 4
Vader- 7

Raw Power

Mace- 9
Maul- 5
Vader- 8

Tactics

Mace- 10
Maul- 6
Vader- 6

Against Single Opponent

Mace- 10
Maul- 4
Vader- 5

Against Multiple Opponents

Mace- 10

Special Ability/Characteristics

Mace- Shatterpoint
Maul- Arrogance (BAD)
Vader- Strength

Mace- 57
Maul- 23
Vader- 32

I know I made Maul and Vader look crappy but; AH well. Mace wins on account of having 2 more points; he's the winner.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Off with the kid's gloves, Vengeance... You're becoming a thorn in our sides...

1) The ROTS novelisation is barely Eu-level quasi-canon, since it contradicts the movies in several places, one of which was reminded to me about Ki Fisto's head being taken and put on Sidious' desk. The novelisation is a fanboy's bible and it holds about as much weight with me as wet toiletpaper holds a river.

2) If a dog can kill you with a lucky bite to the neck, but the same dog couldn't kill a fly, is You<dog<fly logically correct? didn't think so. Try a logics class.

3) Again, you're taking things out of context. If Obi-Wan says Anakin is strong and wise and smart, is it neccessarily true? No. And Mace is proud of his padawan, and saw good talent in her that day and reflected as such. Is she better? No. He trained her, not the other way around. Mace has knowledge and experience with a lightsaber Depa can't even fathom. So again, bad logic.

4) I've never even pretended to know who the hell this person is, so don't mistake me.

5) This is a line of bullshit.

6) GL went through it word by word? Prove up. That's what I say. Prove the **** up.

7) GL said Vader is 80% of the Force potential and power of Sidious, not that he is 80% the swordsman. Again, taken out of context and twisted to fit your own biased, fanboyisn needs. Great Vengeance, your logic is on a whole new level of untrue, I swear.
Nice Darth_Janus, really nice.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Off with the kid's gloves, Vengeance... You're becoming a thorn in our sides...



Your grasping at straws, I really dont have the patience for this anymore think what you want, and btw anyone who doesnt agree with you is a thorn in your side?

Dude, you are pwned. Admit it. YOU don't have crap to come back with.

Janus won this

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Your grasping at straws, I really dont have the patience for this anymore think what you want, and btw anyone who doesnt agree with you is a thorn in your side?

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4926/takeahint5mk.jpg

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Dude, you are pwned. Admit it. YOU don't have crap to come back with.

What did you say at all besides a bunch of bs? That you>dog>fly??? That the OFFICIAL ROTS novelization is barely EU? That you dont know who kar vastor is but you discussed it earlier with me when we were talking about shatterpoint? The point that what GL says is canon is full of shit?

Well, thanks to a jog of the memory, I will concede that I did remembe Vastor... I just didn't recollect his name when I posted earlier. But the OFFICIAL ROTS novelisation is about as official as the OT novelisations and the PT novelisations. That is, they are Eu and thus quasi-canon. And EU quasi-canon CANNOT contradict the movies in any way. ROTS contradicts the movie more than any other novelisation I've seen.

As for the rest being bullshit, it's not. You just refuse to admit your logic isn't sound.

Originally posted by Arbiter
Janus won this

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1.Theres no way dooku is stronger than sidious just give it up, in the ROTS novelization(heheh) dooku says among other things sidious is"beyond power, a horizon on the force, darkness beyond darkness" you dont talk about somone that way if there weaker than you.

2. The sidious-yoda fight was a tie at best for yoda, and if mace actually beat sidious that means mace>yoda correct? But wait mace>yoda is complete bs...

3.When mace said this he was refering to when they battled akks on nar shadaa, she displayed greater swordsmanship than his own and she was using the lightside. Depa may have been using the darkside in their duel together but it doesnt really matter she still won, you dont handicap ragnos because he used the dark side do you?

4.Kar vastor, convenient you knew about him earlier but just suddenly forgot about him.

5.What you say goes against GL and what GL says is the only absolute evidence we have.

6.The ep III novelization is went through word for word by GL, he intended to make sidious look good because guess what? Sidious is that damn clever and powerful.

7. GL said it himself vader is 80% of the emperor that is fact. And stop using lame excuses like vader is"slow and weak" you know thats just being bias and doesnt add anything to the argument.

And in reference to your little logics post... You quoted If Mace>Sidious then Mace>Yoda. However, this argument runs under the assumption (Underline that word) that Sidious>Yoda, which isn't true. Sidious=Yoda is even a stretch. And in reference to mine... again... If a dog can get lucky and kill you, but does not have the ability to kill a pesky fly (who is much weaker) it's you<dog<fly according to how you have presented your case.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
And in reference to your little logics post... You quoted If Mace>Sidious then Mace>Yoda. However, this argument runs under the assumption (Underline that word) that Sidious>Yoda, which isn't true. Sidious=Yoda is even a stretch. And in reference to mine... again... If a dog can get lucky and kill you, but does not have the ability to kill a pesky fly (who is much weaker) it's you<dog<fly according to how you have presented your case.

So yoda ran away from the fight and even said "failed, I have" but saying it was even a tie is a stretch... As for your logic game this is a straight up fight whoever looks to be the strongest wielder of the force will win, no resourcefulness or anything because then predicting the fight is impossible. And all you janus fanboys go home.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
So yoda ran away from the fight and even said "failed, I have" but saying it was even a tie is a stretch... As for your logic game this is a straight up fight whoever looks to be the strongest wielder of the force will win, no resourcefulness or anything because then predicting the fight is impossible. And all you janus fanboys go home.

.......................

I am home and

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/1778/councilelrond9ux.jpg

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
So yoda ran away from the fight and even said "failed, I have" but saying it was even a tie is a stretch... As for your logic game this is a straight up fight whoever looks to be the strongest wielder of the force will win, no resourcefulness or anything because then predicting the fight is impossible. And all you janus fanboys go home.

First off, yoda was without a lightsaber and something like one hundred feet below Sidious. Clone troopers were coming to assist Sidious. The situation was against him, but Yoda isn't weaker than Sidious. And By tie I meant in terms of one being better than the other or just being about equal, not the ROTS fight. Again, read things and don't take them out of context.

My "logic game" is pretty much how anyone else with a brain is gonna deduct this argument. Illustrious, Sorgo, Fishy, Vader and Nai Fohl to name a few are those who use this method, and they tend to convince me more than you do. Your argument is "attack the weakest point because otherwise my character whom I show extreme bias for doesn't have a snow flake's chance in hell".

The point to using logic is because we have to make the best judgment based on what we know and what we can prove either through evidence and reasoning. Since obviously that concept doesn't mean anything to you because you are pretty much here to champion Sidious and Vader and nothing else, I can't expect you to understand it, much less refute any of it.

"As for your logic game this is a straight up fight whoever looks to be the strongest wielder of the force will win, no resourcefulness or anything because then predicting the fight is impossible. "

Wow, is this statement really horrid. Define straight up fight. Now, show me how the thread creator conforms to your definition of "straight up fight". Now tell me how the Force alone is the only way this battle can be resolved. Now tell me how resoucefulness must be ignored because it will make "predicting the fight impossible'> Vengeance, nothing is 100%; no judgment made on this subforum is binding. Predicting every one of these fights IS impossible, because of all the variables involved. That's why I advocate making even threads with a time, place, etc. What you're basically saying is "I can't win by my way so your way must be ruining what we are trying to accomplish here".

You are PWN3D...

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
First off, yoda was without a lightsaber and something like one hundred feet below Sidious. Clone troopers were coming to assist Sidious. The situation was against him, but Yoda isn't weaker than Sidious. And By tie I meant in terms of one being better than the other or just being about equal, not the ROTS fight. Again, read things and don't take them out of context.

My "logic game" is pretty much how anyone else with a brain is gonna deduct this argument. Illustrious, Sorgo, Fishy, Vader and Nai Fohl to name a few are those who use this method, and they tend to convince me more than you do. Your argument is "attack the weakest point because otherwise my character whom I show extreme bias for doesn't have a snow flake's chance in hell".

The point to using logic is because we have to make the best judgment based on what we know and what we can prove either through evidence and reasoning. Since obviously that concept doesn't mean anything to you because you are pretty much here to champion Sidious and Vader and nothing else, I can't expect you to understand it, much less refute any of it.

"As for your logic game this is a straight up fight whoever looks to be the strongest wielder of the force will win, no resourcefulness or anything because then predicting the fight is impossible. "

Wow, is this statement really horrid. Define straight up fight. Now, show me how the thread creator conforms to your definition of "straight up fight". Now tell me how the Force alone is the only way this battle can be resolved. Now tell me how resoucefulness must be ignored because it will make "predicting the fight impossible'> Vengeance, nothing is 100%; no judgment made on this subforum is binding. Predicting every one of these fights IS impossible, because of all the variables involved.
Well done Lord Janus

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
First off, yoda was without a lightsaber and something like one hundred feet below Sidious. Clone troopers were coming to assist Sidious. The situation was against him, but Yoda isn't weaker than Sidious. And By tie I meant in terms of one being better than the other or just being about equal, not the ROTS fight. Again, read things and don't take them out of context.

My "logic game" is pretty much how anyone else with a brain is gonna deduct this argument. Illustrious, Sorgo, Fishy, Vader and Nai Fohl to name a few are those who use this method, and they tend to convince me more than you do. Your argument is "attack the weakest point because otherwise my character whom I show extreme bias for doesn't have a snow flake's chance in hell".

The point to using logic is because we have to make the best judgment based on what we know and what we can prove either through evidence and reasoning. Since obviously that concept doesn't mean anything to you because you are pretty much here to champion Sidious and Vader and nothing else, I can't expect you to understand it, much less refute any of it.

"As for your logic game this is a straight up fight whoever looks to be the strongest wielder of the force will win, no resourcefulness or anything because then predicting the fight is impossible. "

Wow, is this statement really horrid. Define straight up fight. Now, show me how the thread creator conforms to your definition of "straight up fight". Now tell me how the Force alone is the only way this battle can be resolved. Now tell me how resoucefulness must be ignored because it will make "predicting the fight impossible'> Vengeance, nothing is 100%; no judgment made on this subforum is binding. Predicting every one of these fights IS impossible, because of all the variables involved. That's why I advocate making even threads with a time, place, etc. What you're basically saying is "I can't win by my way so your way must be ruining what we are trying to accomplish here".

You are PWN3D...


This is better than some of the stuff Ive been hearing from you.


1.Yoda was without a lightsaber and so was sidious...I dont see the point here. Yeah clone troopers were coming to assist but I really doubt yoda would have trouble with that he would just force push them away. In pure abilities there tied, I havent seen anything to back up that yoda is stronger especially since the ROTS novel(heheh) made it seem the fight up untill the end was completely even and the movie didnt show yoda with a clear advantage either. As for the actual fight I believe sidious won but once again ill be generous and say they tied, doesnt get any better than that for yoda.

2. My argument strategy is to use facts to make the most likely conclusion, and yes I do attack weak points in your argument because their weak, everyone does this.

3. Yeah I am a bit sidious and vader bias but not without good reason, there the original badass villians who breath evil like we breath like air. And the point about you using more evidence and reasoning then me werent you the one that said lines said from GL himself were full of shit?

4.A straight up fight discounts random events and things like resourcefulness, luck etc...even this method isnt completely predictable like you said but its sure of a hell lot more predictable than your method.


Adding to this although I am slightly palpatine and vader bias you are VERY negatively bias against them...I mean saying vader was slow and weak give me a break. I dont say mace windu sucks just because I fell like saying it.

"You are PWN3D" You were on a good run then you say this *sigh*

Jesus, Ven.

1.) Yoda would assualt a few and more would come, Sids would stall him, and the troopers would kill him. And its even worse he has no lightsaber. Lets see yoda deflect blaster botls and lightning. OK he ran for his own good.

2.) Nothing to say.

3.)You are running out of reasons. They were not meant to be the best, give it up.

4.)Nothing to Say.

5.)Many here are not bais. We are just pissed of that fans, come on the threads and try to argue different. And they have crummy reasons. And that we waste our time.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
This is better than some of the stuff Ive been hearing from you.


1.Yoda was without a lightsaber and so was sidious...I dont see the point here. Yeah clone troopers were coming to assist but I really doubt yoda would have trouble with that he would just force push them away. In pure abilities there tied, I havent seen anything to back up that yoda is stronger especially since the ROTS novel(heheh) made it seem the fight up untill the end was completely even and the movie didnt show yoda with a clear advantage either. As for the actual fight I believe sidious won but once again ill be generous and say they tied, doesnt get any better than that for yoda.

2. My argument strategy is to use facts to make the most likely conclusion, and yes I do attack weak points in your argument because their weak, everyone does this.

3. Yeah I am a bit sidious and vader bias but not without good reason, there the original badass villians who breath evil like we breath like air. And the point about you using more evidence and reasoning then me werent you the one that said lines said from GL himself were full of shit?

4.A straight up fight discounts random events and things like resourcefulness, luck etc...even this method isnt completely predictable like you said but its sure of a hell lot more predictable than your method.


Adding to this although I am slightly palpatine and vader bias you are VERY negatively bias against them...I mean saying vader was slow and weak give me a break. I dont say mace windu sucks just because I fell like saying it.

"You are PWN3D" You were on a good run then you say this *sigh*

1) So you're saying Yoda should have just braved the 100 some meter climb, dodging Sith lightning and clone trooper fire and the occassional thrown object, to engage in hand to hand combat with a Sith lord? As for what you saw or didn't see, whatever. Two people watch a car crash and both people give different accounts. I'm not gonna convince you here because you refuse to see otherwise.

2) The only facts you want to listen to are the ones you like or Gl himself, which you quoted as The ONly Source (tm). Then you cite the ROTS novel and to further validify your source, you claim it is proofread word for word and verified by Lucas (Which is hilarious when you consider Lucas apparently disregarded the book when he made the movie entirely.) And you attack the weakest parts of my arguments ONLY because that's about as close as you can get. You have yet to refute my argument with anything other than your own opinion.

3) I never said lines from Gl himself are shit. You said I was disbelieving or not listening to Lucas' words. That was utter shit. Again, out of context. Do you speak English natively?

4) This right here is more bullshit. A "straight up" fight in your words includes what? *Mace swings.* *Sidious parries* There is no room for luck, resourcefulness, etc? I'm not talking blind luck, but situational variables, things like that. Those exist regardless of whether or not you like them. Variables exist everywhere, with everything, and in every situation, which is why no two situations are alike. Which is why no two generals can be accurately compared. To discard variables in like saying "There won't be any rain today because I can only throw a fast ball in dry, arid weather. Only then can the best pitcher be decided."

As for me being VERY negatively biased against them, this is ridiculous. I'm merely pointing out that they aren't gods like you and a few others claim. And when I say Vader is slow and pretty weak, I'm not just pulling that out of my ass. If I was, there wouldn't be half a dozen people here who think the same thing.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
1) So you're saying Yoda should have just braved the 100 some meter climb, dodging Sith lightning and clone trooper fire and the occassional thrown object, to engage in hand to hand combat with a Sith lord? As for what you saw or didn't see, whatever. Two people watch a car crash and both people give different accounts. I'm not gonna convince you here because you refuse to see otherwise.

2) The only facts you want to listen to are the ones you like or Gl himself, which you quoted as The ONly Source (tm). Then you cite the ROTS novel and to further validify your source, you claim it is proofread word for word and verified by Lucas (Which is hilarious when you consider Lucas apparently disregarded the book when he made the movie entirely.) And you attack the weakest parts of my arguments ONLY because that's about as close as you can get. You have yet to refute my argument with anything other than your own opinion.

3) I never said lines from Gl himself are shit. You said I was disbelieving or not listening to Lucas' words. That was utter shit. Again, out of context. Do you speak English natively?

4) This right here is more bullshit. A "straight up" fight in your words includes what? *Mace swings.* *Sidious parries* There is no room for luck, resourcefulness, etc? I'm not talking blind luck, but situational variables, things like that. Those exist regardless of whether or not you like them. Variables exist everywhere, with everything, and in every situation, which is why no two situations are alike. Which is why no two generals can be accurately compared. To discard variables in like saying "There won't be any rain today because I can only throw a fast ball in dry, arid weather. Only then can the best pitcher be decided."

As for me being VERY negatively biased against them, this is ridiculous. I'm merely pointing out that they aren't gods like you and a few others claim. And when I say Vader is slow and pretty weak, I'm not just pulling that out of my ass. If I was, there wouldn't be half a dozen people here who think the same thing.


1.1 force push all the troopers would of been knocked out, they are nothing compared to a 900 year old jedi master. And yoda could of continued to battle sidious with the force like they were doing till yoda gave up. If yoda is stronger than sidious he could of continued but they are even at best for yoda.

2. GL isnt the only thing that matters hes just the only ABSOLUTE source. When I took the direct quote from lucas about vader being 80% of sidious you said I was full of shit.

3. Reread your posts.

4.My way is more accurate...accuracy is good yes?

5.Yes and most of the people that agree with you on this devotely follow you on everything, you could tell them to jump off a bridge and they would do it.


Were going around in circles, you say I cant refute your points but what hard evidence do you have? That mace beat palpatine is your opinion on that very controversial fight, that obi really defeated maul is your opinion, that vader is slow and weak is very much your opinion, how do I refute an opinion to logical axiom? Im done for the night. If you cant let this thread die come back tomorow with some new material and I will continue.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1.1 force push all the troopers would of been knocked out, they are nothing compared to a 900 year old jedi master. And yoda could of continued to battle sidious with the force like they were doing till yoda gave up. If yoda is stronger than sidious he could of continued but they are even at best for yoda.

2. GL isnt the only thing that matters hes just the only ABSOLUTE source. When I took the direct quote from lucas about vader being 80% of sidious you said I was full of shit.

3. Reread your posts.

4.My way is more accurate...accuracy is good yes?

5.Yes and most of the people that agree with you on this devotely follow you on everything, you could tell them to jump off a bridge and they would do it.


Were going around in circles, you say I cant refute your points but what hard evidence do you have? That mace beat palpatine is your opinion on that very controversial fight, that obi really defeated maul is your opinion, that vader is slow and weak is very much your opinion, how do I refute an opinion to logical axiom? Im done for the night. If you cant let this thread die come back tomorow with some new material and I will continue.

1) Reread my post. If the situations were reversed, Sidious most likely could not and would not try and retake the high ground from such a position. Hell, he tried to run out the door immediately when he saw Yoda.

2) Your reasoning on the matter was shit. I never disputed that Gl said that, or that it applies. But how you said it applies IS bullshit. GL also said "think outside the box". But you're still stuck in it.

3) Don't have to. I previewed them before I posted. Got anything better?

4) How is your way more accurate? For the sake of the others if not myself, lay it out for us in its entirety, "your way".

5) People who don't even like me agreed with that accessment. Don't chalk up the multiple observations of Vader's slowness and lack of Force powers as my own little clique... Obviously you don't see it, just like you don't see anything wrong with Vader or Sidious period. You're probably trying to think of how Sidious can beat Revan and Exar Kun.

As for the last half of your reply, nice try. But take your ball and go home. You have YET to prove Vader and Maul can defeat Mace, and that was the main focus of this thread, which you carefully tried to avoid.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
1) Reread my post. If the situations were reversed, Sidious most likely could not and would not try and retake the high ground from such a position. Hell, he tried to run out the door immediately when he saw Yoda.

2) Your reasoning on the matter was shit. I never disputed that Gl said that, or that it applies. But how you said it applies IS bullshit. GL also said "think outside the box". But you're still stuck in it.

3) Don't have to. I previewed them before I posted. Got anything better?

4) How is your way more accurate? For the sake of the others if not myself, lay it out for us in its entirety, "your way".

5) People who don't even like me agreed with that accessment. Don't chalk up the multiple observations of Vader's slowness and lack of Force powers as my own little clique... Obviously you don't see it, just like you don't see anything wrong with Vader or Sidious period. You're probably trying to think of how Sidious can beat Revan and Exar Kun.

As for the last half of your reply, nice try. But take your ball and go home. You have YET to prove Vader and Maul can defeat Mace, and that was the main focus of this thread, which you carefully tried to avoid.

Damn, i should have been here for this shit. Good going, Janus.

Originally posted by LordSorgo
Damn, i should have been here for this shit. Good going, Janus.

*Bows* Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week.

this thread's going forever

No, it was over the moment it started. Maul is no competition for Mace, and Vader is like adding a four-year-old to the Holyfield versus Tyson fight.

Holy crap, there is no reason for a long thread involving these three characters... God, simple logic Mace wins end of story... Anyone who doesn't like it... Tough...

Originally posted by Darth Windu
Last thing tonight. . . Rating Time!

Dueling Skill

Mace- 10
Maul- 6
Vader- 6

Force Mastery

Mace- 8
Maul- 4
Vader- 7

Raw Power

Mace- 9
Maul- 5
Vader- 8

Tactics

Mace- 10
Maul- 6
Vader- 6

Against Single Opponent

Mace- 10
Maul- 4
Vader- 5

Against Multiple Opponents

Mace- 10

Special Ability/Characteristics

Mace- Shatterpoint
Maul- Arrogance (BAD)
Vader- Strength

Mace- 57
Maul- 23
Vader- 32

I know I made Maul and Vader look crappy but; AH well. Mace wins on account of having 2 more points; he's the winner.


Love it, though I don't agree on everything. Please post things like these more in different threads, it's really entertaining to read

I never went home I just needed a relaxing stroll in the park,

"1) Reread my post. If the situations were reversed, Sidious most likely could not and would not try and retake the high ground from such a position. Hell, he tried to run out the door immediately when he saw Yoda."

If the situations were reversed palps would use some force lightning and fry all the troopers then get back to fighting yoda. Stormtroopers are a non factor in this fight you saw how easily yoda dispatched those 2 royal guards who are among the best non force user fighters in the galaxy.



"2) Your reasoning on the matter was shit. I never disputed that Gl said that, or that it applies. But how you said it applies IS bullshit. GL also said "think outside the box". But you're still stuck in it."

I applied it the way it should be applied, GL says vader is 80% of the emperor I take it as fact, there is no "thinking outside the box" on this one.

"3) Don't have to. I previewed them before I posted. Got anything better?"

No the question is do you have anything besides bs opinion?

"4) How is your way more accurate? For the sake of the others if not myself, lay it out for us in its entirety, "your way"."

Once again if a>b and b>c then a>c. My way is direct and accurate, making excuses like "Well yoda would be better matched with mace" is inaccurate speculation.

"5) People who don't even like me agreed with that accessment. Don't chalk up the multiple observations of Vader's slowness and lack of Force powers as my own little clique... Obviously you don't see it, just like you don't see anything wrong with Vader or Sidious period. You're probably trying to think of how Sidious can beat Revan and Exar Kun."

The only people Ive seen agree with you are your fanboys, and if somone else did well this board is brainwashed anyways...go to the official forums at star wars.com and start claiming mace would beat vader AND maul at the same time, they will do one of 2 things.

1.Flame you to hell.

2.Ignore the ignorant noob.


"As for the last half of your reply, nice try. But take your ball and go home. You have YET to prove Vader and Maul can defeat Mace, and that was the main focus of this thread, which you carefully tried to avoid."


I have made several points on the matter which you sidestepped, you say Ive been avoiding the topic it is you who brought the argument off topic but Ill bring it back.


Mace is seriously overrated on this forum due mostly to the belief he beat palpatine, I dont agree with this for reasons Ive already said, disregarding the supposed win on palpatine the only other significant opponent he has bested is jango fett...Like Ive already stated and you have yet to refute he has lost to kar vastor, he also lost to his padawan and shatterpoint makes it clear they are both stronger than he, Ive already given you quotes to support this. Not to mention in shatterpoint mace struggles with non-force user mercenarys, he is the 2nd in rank amongst the jedi order and a master of the deadly style vaapad but he isnt as powerful as everyone seems to think.

Now lets look at vader, vader was a force the whole galaxy feared, now granted their were very few force users left but WHY do you think there all dead? Vader whiped them all out he was the head of the purge, has any sith in history made the jedi fear him like vader? The only person vader lost to was luke and that is nothing to be ashamed of. Old ben wouldnt even fight vader because he knew it was no use he was too powerful, that is my opinion but still if you think old ben could of defeated vader why the hell didnt he do it? It doesnt make sense.

Now lets look at maul, we dont know a whole lot about him but we know that he took on both obi and qui gon at the same time and still had the advantage most of the fight, If looked at logically maul can be said to have the power of both qui gon and obi combined which is nothing to sneeze at.

I can see why you might think windu would beat vader one on one but vader and maul? It isnt within the realm of possibility no matter how much you try to reason it is.

You havent "PWN3D" anyone, but I have to admit you do put on a good show.

Originally posted by kamikz
Love it, though I don't agree on everything. Please post things like these more in different threads, it's really entertaining to read

Yeah, I don't know why it came up to Maul holding but 23 points. . .

I can't believe people are still arguing on this thread. Mace takes it...end of story.

Originally posted by darthrevan89
I can't believe people are still arguing on this thread. Mace takes it...end of story.

I was never a conformist

My god vengeance. . . . Mace lost to his Padawan? I suggest you re-read Shatterpoint back to the battle, so you can pick up that bit that says how Mace refused completely to strike back at his old Padawan. And he struggled with the mercenaries because there were nearly a dozen of them, all armed with blasters or REPEATING rifles. And I'm gonna go back to that bit with Vastor. . . . I dunno what happened there.

Originally posted by Darth Windu
My god vengeance. . . . Mace lost to his Padawan? I suggest you re-read Shatterpoint back to the battle, so you can pick up that bit that says how Mace refused completely to strike back at his old Padawan. And he struggled with the mercenaries because there were nearly a dozen of them, all armed with blasters or REPEATING rifles. And I'm gonna go back to that bit with Vastor. . . . I dunno what happened there.

Just out of curosity...but what happened in that book anyway. I only read half of it.

Originally posted by Darth Windu
My god vengeance. . . . Mace lost to his Padawan? I suggest you re-read Shatterpoint back to the battle, so you can pick up that bit that says how Mace refused completely to strike back at his old Padawan. And he struggled with the mercenaries because there were nearly a dozen of them, all armed with blasters or REPEATING rifles. And I'm gonna go back to that bit with Vastor. . . . I dunno what happened there.

I dont believe mace was holding back after all the times depa had betrayed him throughout the book, and besides mace says himself depa was the better swordsman, what is your defense against this? As for the mercenerys it doesnt matter if they had "REPEATING rifles" yoda would of owned them as easily as he owned the imperial guards.

God damn it, Great Vengeance. You are realy annoying. Since most of the stuff here happened on my birthday - and so I missed it - you will get you "ownage" now.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
If the situations were reversed palps would use some force lightning and fry all the troopers then get back to fighting yoda. Stormtroopers are a non factor in this fight you saw how easily yoda dispatched those 2 royal guards who are among the best non force user fighters in the galaxy.

Hell...WHAT ?

a)
If the situations were reversed Palpatine (without having a lightsaber) would need more time to toast all the troopers than they would need to kill him. And he still would have Yoda (aimed with a lightsaber) attacking him.

b)
The situation as given in the movie: Yoda without a lightsaber, being 100 metres under Sidious, clone troopers coming. He COULD have jumped up and battle Sidious with force powers...great deal since Yoda can't kill people with that...
So he could have probably knocked out the troopers...still he had no chance to kill Sidious after doing so since his lightsaber was gone. Why return to a fight that you simply can't win ?

c)
Did you ever mention that Sidious DID RUN AWAY when Yoda wanted to confront him in a "fair" duel. Do you think he did that because he was stronger ?



No. You did not. GL said that Vader would have 80 % of Sidious force powers when he is in his suit. Where does that statement refer to lightsaber skills ?



That is stupid because of the persons you used an how you used them.

Mace > Sidious - right
Sidious > Yoda - obviously WRONG
so Mace > Yoda - obviously WRONG

Go read any source you like about Mace and Yoda. Mace is inferior to Yoda in both force use and lightsaber skills. And now the correct statement to use would be:

Yoda > Mace > Sidious

And just because I know you maybe won't get that right. Sidious lost to Mace in a "fair" fight. Yoda was defeated in a at least not "fair" duel. If you put Yoda and Sidious on equal ground and let them fight (Sidious didn't run away from that situation without a reason), Yoda would kill Sidious.



Now...I agree with Janus. Am I one of his fanboys ?
Mace would take down Maul and Vader at once. Why ?
- Vader (in suit) is lame as hell...not because of bad/missing CGI no because he has two artificial legs.
- Mace is superior in lightsaber skills and force use compared to both of those guys. It took him less than a minute to disarm Sidious - he would kill Maul (who lost to Sidious badly and was his damn slave not even thinking about he could kill his master) in even less time that leaves Mace vs Vader and PLEASE, Vader is NO match for him.

And do you think the people on the "official starwars.com" boards are enlighted beings because they knew how to register on a website ?



Oh yes. That he invented his own lightsaber fighting style in the age of 13 doesn't matter ? That he has a unique ability (Shatterpoint) that shows him the weakpoints of his opponents doesn't matter ? That he entered the Jedi Council in an age where other people were just given their Jedi Knight status doesn't matter ?

Can you tell me who was killed by Yoda ? Nobody ? So...Yoda must be totaly overrated on this forum...right ?



Please STOP BORING US and read that book again.



Are you completely out of your mind now ?

If any Sith in history made the Jedi fear him like Vader ?
They sended entire ARMIES of force users to kill people like Nadd, Sadow and Kun and ONE single Jedi Knight with less than ONE year of training was enough to defeat Vader. Vader must be kind of a god though, huh ?
And Ben (aka Obi-Wan) did defeat Vader when Vader was more powerful - what makes you think he couldn't have done that again. Oh...wait...if you have ever read "Splinter of the minds eye" - Ben took over Lukes body and defeated Vader. Ups.



Now...really. You've gone too far. Maul being as powerful as Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon combined. Great...wait...so ROTJ Luke is as powerful as Vader and Sidious combined because he was in a room with both of them and was the only one to come out of that alive, right ?

Oh...stop...Dooku must be GOD because he would have the power of ROTS Obi-Wan and ROTS Anakin COMBINED ! Ph34r the new chosen one !!!!1111oneoneeleven

Really dude...you are as talented in logical reasoning as a dead fish is in freeclimbing.

It says it in the book. . . . and Mace didn't own them because he didn't want to kill them. He was deflecting them away from the bunker as well as he could without hitting the shooters, hoping their sensible leader would stop them; they didn't listen to him. Ih he actually wanted to hurt them he would have ripped them to pieces; literally. And if you count blaster-holes in Jedi Robes as a sign of weakness . . . whatever, man.

Well everyone and their mother is against me now, wheres fishy? wheres emperor revan? I give this shit up nai fohl your a good debater even if you do sound like you need a nap(ups) and I dont have the time or desire to continue this damn thread especially with no one supporting vader these days.

Take your ball and go home. You've lost. Nai, thanks for beating me to the punch. Happy birthday, btw. Great Vengeance, I suggest you shamble over to the "official star wars.com forum" and go hang out with the Vader/Sidious fanboys. Maybe you guys can come up with interesting new threads like "wut if annykin killd da emperer" and "cideus vs revan exar koon and superman... cideus winz!"

Here's your sign:

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Well everyone and their mother is against me now, wheres fishy? wheres emperor revan? I give this shit up nai fohl your a good debater even if you do sound like you need a nap(ups) and I dont have the time or desire to continue this damn thread especially with no one supporting vader these days.

Don't feel upset - nobody is trying to make you feel bad. It's just that Vader degenerates quite a bit from ANH onward. He has no real opposition except in the form of a Jedi learner who isn't even a Knight yet. Vader was badass in his prime, which, I think, we never really got a chance to witness, but he perhaps eventually lost some of the twisted hatred and anger that made him so powerful (I'm not sure whether or not this is true, but it seems like a valid point, so, with all due respect, Great Vengeance, it might be easier to try to accept that many people here do, I think, believe in that theory or something like it wholeheartedly, and there's nothing wrong with that).

Why did Mace Windu cross the road?

Okay. Why?

To get to this stupid thread.

ROFL!.... no, really. Why?

to get to this thread to fight Vader and Maul

Correction: to actually break a sweat after killing Vader and Maul.

lol.

Why did Mace Windu have to cross the road?

Because he needed to get to the other side, duh?

Took him ages though.

Old Windu.... awesome!

Yes, at that point of time he is more than a match for Dooku!

Yeah, because Dooku is either dead or in hospice.

lol

Hmm... lets see... Maul and Mace would duel. Mace would be winning, but not by much. Then Vader would start to Force Choke Mace and Mace'd be to busy with Maul to use the Force to stop Vader, lack of air would make him whoozy and Maul'd slice him up.