Mace Windu vs. Count Dooku in Geonosis Arena

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JediMusician
Battle rages around them, Windu has just killed Fett, who not long ago offed Coleman Trebor.
Before Yoda arrives with the cavalry and Dooku decides its time to go.

Darth_Glentract
Mace is probably tired by now. Dooku wins.

Darth_Janus
Dooku wins because he has faith!

Admiral Akbar
Dooku wins becuz Janus has powerful ways of persuasion.

Great Vengeance
Dooku wins again.

MAKASHIMAN
Dooku will always win against windu no matter what. Hasn't this been done before only in a differant context?

Kam Solusar
Mace has Vaapad though. This gives him new energy and aggresion and when dooku beat him before he was only 21

Darth_Janus
Vaapad is not god, as Yoda uses what the general populace thinks of as an "inferior" form (Read: Ataru, the same form that got Qui-Gon killed to a Juyo user) and Yoda could pretty much school Mace in a pitched battle.

I don't think Vaapad is as good for saber-to-saber combat as some people are making it out to be.... I mean, Makashi is, in the definition by Nick Gillard (The bloody creator of the forms) the REFINEMENT of saber-to-saber combat. Meaning? The highest degree. Makashi is better. And since we never see Dooku fight a battle where he gives it his all and fights for real, I'd argue Dooku is the best Sith lord in lightsaber combat in the PT era. He'd destroy Mace and that's the end of it.

MAKASHIMAN
You know Janus that really makes me happy ''Makashi the ultimate refinement" I think i'm getting the vapors.........

Darth_Janus
Well, it is. Why would a practitioner sacrifice the protection against blaster bolts and whatnot to be good at saber-to-saber combat, only to be passed by Juyo/Vaapad, which is, if anything, Niman on crack? And of all the people we see in the PT, Dooku most easily dispatches his opponents and keeps Yoda at bay while Juyo practitioners tend to be -in-your-face and Maul in particular takes a great deal of time to make a kill... (You can chalk this up to arrogance and playing with the two jedi, btu the point is Juyo and Vaapad are more open, kinetic styles that draw on the Force, meaning Force powers are actually a break in the routine. Notice you never see Mace or Maul really utilize the Force while fighting, whereas Dooku chucks stuff like it's his job.)

So yeah, when it comes to saber-tosaber fighting, the list goes like this:

1) Makashi
2)Vaapad (Completed Juyo)
3)Juyo
4)Shien/Djem So
5)Soresu (This is a close tie for fourth, as Soresu can be more tactically sound in lightsaber combat that Shien... However, it doesn't help much if the opponent is Dooku, obviously)
6)Shii-Cho
7)Niman

Darth Windu
I don't think it would be an easy fight at all. Not that you'd be so arrogant as to imply that. . . I still think that the fight could go either way. Oh yeah, and you left out Ataru.

JediMusician
Obviously Dooku would win, but I thought there would be a lot more Windu fanboys.
And I searched for this thread before I started it and found nothing similar.

Darth Windu
There have been two of them, the last one taken out for repeated threads. . . the first one was a while ago, before all these bull threads came out. Not yours specifically, just in general. And the first one ended with Mace having 30 votes and Dooku having 10. Fanboys.

Darth_Janus
I DID forget Ataru. Hm. Freudian slip there...

Kam Solusar
ok, but i still think mace would win

Darth_Janus
Why?

Darth Windu
I think he has a chance. It hurts me to say this, but yes, Dooku would most likely, if not almost certainly, win.

Darth_Janus
It doesn't hurt me. But then, if I had a bias towards anyone in the SW universe, it's Dooku.

Kam Solusar
He is to self proud to loose

Darth_Janus
Originally posted by Kam Solusar
He is to self proud to loose

Darth Windu
Meh, I feel better now. Dooku wins.

kamikz
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Vaapad is not god, as Yoda uses what the general populace thinks of as an "inferior" form (Read: Ataru, the same form that got Qui-Gon killed to a Juyo user) and Yoda could pretty much school Mace in a pitched battle.

I don't think Vaapad is as good for saber-to-saber combat as some people are making it out to be.... I mean, Makashi is, in the definition by Nick Gillard (The bloody creator of the forms) the REFINEMENT of saber-to-saber combat. Meaning? The highest degree. Makashi is better. And since we never see Dooku fight a battle where he gives it his all and fights for real, I'd argue Dooku is the best Sith lord in lightsaber combat in the PT era. He'd destroy Mace and that's the end of it.


We do see Dooku fight a battle where he gives his all. It's versus Yoda in AOTC. But mabey you mean that Dooku was tired then and wasent able to do his best???????

JediMusician
I don't think Dooku is giving his all against Yoda there. He is just delaying so he can get away and give his report to his master.

Darth_Janus
Exactly. If Dooku gave it his all, someone would have died that day. As it is, he almost killed Obi-Wan, but I think that was due to Sidious' orders (Skywalker's master must be killed if he cannot be turned) or was more of a teasing strike to antagonize Anakin.

Kam Solusar
i think dooku wanted anakin to get in,he paused b4 he did it. If he really wanted to kill obi he wud have struck him down immediately

Darth Hawkeye
I think Dooku would win period yoda taught him lets not forget that factor he is the best Jedi not siths apprentice
smart

Kam Solusar
good point

Kam Solusar
mace uses vaapad which is really good for blaster fire. Dooku on the other hand uses makashi which is terribe. If a stray bolt came in then dooku would have to concentrate to deflect it, in this moment mace would attack and kill him

JediMusician
A good point. There is a battle going on, after all.

Kam Solusar
thanks

Aduruth
It all really depends on the location, peace an tranqil prolly dokoo, wild and chatic - windu.

Kam Solusar
its in geonosis battle AOTC

Darth Somebody
Count Dooku would probably win. We know definately that Dooku has defeated Mace in times previous. In that time, Mace has amassed more experience and power in the Force. But what people forget to realize is that so do the older Jedi and Sith.

Take Luke for example. In Return of The Jedi, he had his ass fried and handed to him by Emperor Palpatine. Now look. He's gotta be in his fifties in the New Jedi Order. In this turn of events, he can hand just about anyone's ass back to them - and he's past middle age.

Count Dooku racked up the experience and especially more Force powers - under Darth Sidious's tutelage. His Force skills are now much more refined - and his lightsaber skills are probably the same, if not better.

Not to mention Makashi is the ultimate form of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. In Force powers or saber combat, Mace would be defeated.

LordSorgo
Originally posted by Kam Solusar
mace uses vaapad which is really good for blaster fire. Dooku on the other hand uses makashi which is terribe. If a stray bolt came in then dooku would have to concentrate to deflect it, in this moment mace would attack and kill him

Is Mace gonna pull a blaster out of his arse while they are fighting or what?


And for those of you who said Dooku was going all out with Yoda on the AOTC fight were sorely wrong. You could see with the expressions of his face that he was merely playing around. Dooku is one of the greatest Lightsaber duelists in the Star Wars series because he is basically a Grandmaster of Makashi/Form II/Way of the Ysalamir. Vapaad is a very domesticated form that uses Anger and power to accumilate strikes. This leaves the fighter open to alot of flawed hits because of the angered strikes. Dooku would open Mace up apon a flaw and strike him down.

Although it would be a long fight, Dooku would win.

Darth Windu
STOP! . . . . Rating time!


Dueling Skill

Mace- 10
Dooku- 10

Force Mastery

Mace- 7
Dooku- 9

Raw Power

Mace- 8
Dooku-8

Tactics

Mace- 10
Dooku- 10

Against Single Opponent

Mace- 10
Dooku- 10

Against Multiple Opponents

Mace- 10
Dooku- 9

Leaving Dooku at 56 and Mace at 54. Close, but Dooku takes it slightly. I'd say Dooku's advantage comes in Force Mastery. Although Mace is no slouch, the Jedi just don't have access to such a variety of technique as the Sith, except for Yoda. Remember, this is a broad topic. So Force Mastery means techique, knowledge, practice, etc. Mace has mastered every Jedi technique, or almost every, and some darker ones likely. But he doesn't know the powers of darkness, like Lightning. I'd give him Choke and Grip, and others in the ilk, but Dooku knows more.

Darth_Glentract
I actually like the way you did that surprisingly well(like you care) smile . I think it would be more like this though.

Dueling Skill

Mace- 10
Dooku- 10

Force Mastery

Mace- 8
Dooku- 9

Raw Power

Mace- 9
Dooku- 9

Tatics

Mace- 10
Dooku- 10

Against Single Opponent

Mace- 9
Dooku- 10

Against Mutiple Opponent

Mace- 10
Dooku- 8


Overall

Mace- 56
Dooku- 56

Well, I guess it didn't go as well for my try at the system.


Edit: Since it's one-on-one though, Dooku would win because you would skill against mutiple opponets doesnt matter in this fight and that is where Mace has a big advantage over Dooku.

Darth Windu
Close enough to where I was, except I put my money on Dooku due to his superior Force Mastery; why wouldn't Mace be as good against a single opponent as Dooku though?

Dr. Obliterator
Dooku would probably strike mace with electricity while he's fighting droids

Nai Fohl
People...

That is a duel. What does "force mastery" has to do with that ? Dooku could throw some lightning at Mace but Mace can deflect that. So that is quite boring.

I think Mace might be able to take Dooku. Dooku has superior lightsaber skills (but only by a slight advantage) but Mace has his Shatterpoint ability that will show him Dookus weakpoints and grant him the ability to exploit them. And he has a natural talent for lightsaber combat. That way he might take Dooku.

At least I would give Mace a 50 / 50 chance in defeating Dooku in a normal duel.

But this one would be a duel in the middle of a full scale ground conflict with serveral hundrets droids / Jedi involved. As we could see in AotC, Dooku didn't participate in that fight. And I think the reason for that is, that his lightsaber form is weak against multiple opponents. So in this situation he might get hit by blasterfire or just stabbed by another Jedi. We saw that Mace wasn't afraid to confront Dooku alone and in that enviroment I'd say that Mace would win because some other Jedi forces might join him in that fight.

LordSorgo
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
People...

That is a duel. What does "force mastery" has to do with that ? Dooku could throw some lightning at Mace but Mace can deflect that. So that is quite boring.

I think Mace might be able to take Dooku. Dooku has superior lightsaber skills (but only by a slight advantage) but Mace has his Shatterpoint ability that will show him Dookus weakpoints and grant him the ability to exploit them. And he has a natural talent for lightsaber combat. That way he might take Dooku.

At least I would give Mace a 50 / 50 chance in defeating Dooku in a normal duel.

But this one would be a duel in the middle of a full scale ground conflict with serveral hundrets droids / Jedi involved. As we could see in AotC, Dooku didn't participate in that fight. And I think the reason for that is, that his lightsaber form is weak against multiple opponents. So in this situation he might get hit by blasterfire or just stabbed by another Jedi. We saw that Mace wasn't afraid to confront Dooku alone and in that enviroment I'd say that Mace would win because some other Jedi forces might join him in that fight.


Just because Dooku has a form that isn't good with dodging blaster bolts doesn't mean he can't do it. Hell, i know he knows Form I, which can deflect Blaster bolts. I'm sure he doesn't have some sort of inability to deflect Blaster bolts. And as you have seen on ROTS, he is good at fighting more than one Jedi. I am sure he would still conquer Mace.

Darth Windu
I would give Mace a good chance, hence my 2-point difference between the two.

LordSorgo
Dueling Skill

Mace- 9
Dooku- 10 (Dooku's Form is literally bent apon Dueling.)

Force Mastery

Mace- 8
Dooku- 9

Physical Power

Mace- 10
Dooku- 9

Tactics

Mace- 10
Dooku- 10

Against Single Opponent

Mace- 9
Dooku- 10

Against Mutiple Opponent

Mace- 10
Dooku- 9

Lightsaber Dueling/fighting experience

Dooku- 10
Mace- 9

Our Fighters previous experience fighting each other

Dooku = Win
Mace = Lose


Overall

Mace- 65
Dooku- 67

Darth Windu
Meh, same thing. Two point lead. Hence a chance for Mace to score a victory. Oh yeah, and add a Special Abilities section in there; Ex: Shatterpoint, Precognition, etc.

Darth Windu
And the vs. Multiple applies for team battles; I just added it in there two show the strengths/weaknesses of their style, system bashers.

Arbiter
Wouldn't Mace be tired from the battle giving Dooku an easier victory?

Darth Windu
They're fighting in the middle of the battlefield. No one's fought anyone yet.

Arbiter
Originally posted by JediMusician
Battle rages around them, Windu has just killed Fett, who not long ago offed Coleman Trebor.
Before Yoda arrives with the cavalry and Dooku decides its time to go.
According to this Mace has.

JediMusician
Originally posted by Arbiter
Wouldn't Mace be tired from the battle giving Dooku an easier victory?

I wouldn't say Jango made Mace tired...
The reek might of had a slight impact on his stamina, though.

Arbiter
Mace also been running around in the heat fighting Battle Droids. Plus I'm sure he had a bit to deal with outside the arena.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by LordSorgo
Just because Dooku has a form that isn't good with dodging blaster bolts doesn't mean he can't do it. Hell, i know he knows Form I, which can deflect Blaster bolts. I'm sure he doesn't have some sort of inability to deflect Blaster bolts. And as you have seen on ROTS, he is good at fighting more than one Jedi. I am sure he would still conquer Mace.

That's the LordSorgo I remember.

JediMusician
I've tried to conceal my bias in this one, but I'm actually pulling for Dooku. Wouldn't want to miss one of the saga's coolest beheadings, now would we? <--Refers to RotS, since the AotC one has happened by this time.

spiderboy5
good match but im thinking that dooku will win since windu got tired from fett...... but ROTS windu could definetely own dooku's a$$

kamikz
Originally posted by Kam Solusar
i think dooku wanted anakin to get in,he paused b4 he did it. If he really wanted to kill obi he wud have struck him down immediately


So you mean that Mace wanted Anakin to interfer when Mace was about to kill Sidious? He was doing the exat same thing as Dooku but slower. Nope that's just the stupid way jedi and sith execute their opponents lol. And I don't think that Mace would be tired during this fight, Dooku fought Obi-wan and Anakin, after that he was good enough to fight Yoda. I belive that Obi + Anakin would be a harder duel than Jango and some droids.

Darth_Janus
When the **** did Mace get tired from Jango "three swings you're out" Fett?

Darth Windu
No Janus, he got tired from fighting those uber droids and the reek. Retard.
















Just kidding lol.

Darth_Janus
zOMG! lol...

Darth_Nihilus86
doode i don't kno bout u guyz but i think mace would **** dooku up in my opinion hes the finest lightsaber duelist he ****in defeated palpatine. Not only that dooku got his ass handed to him by anakin.

Darth_Nihilus86
if u guyz can remember before the duel between palpatine and dooku palpatine cut down agen kolar, kit fisto, and saesee tinn like they were nothing, and they were supposed to be the best swordsmen in the jedi order yet windu's ferocity took him down. oh and by the way in AOTC dooku was tryin to defeat yoda he pulled out all his tricks telekinisis, lightning, and he was tryin his best but he ran away like a lil ***** when he realized he couldn't win.

Darth_Nihilus86
also in a clone wars novel dooku lures yoda to his personal fortress on the planet vjun which is a planet that seeps with darkside energies clearly giving dooku the advantage and he still gets beaten and runs away again in a cowardly fashion.

Darth_Glentract
thanks for the triple post

Darth_Janus
Anyone who types "u guyz" seriously, seriously needs to learn internet ettiquette.

Now, in response to your posts...

Mace>Palpatine does not = Mace>Dooku. I think one interesting fact everyone seems to ignore in here is that just because Mace can beat Palpatine doesn't mean he can easily take Yoda or Dooku, two people commonly thought to be less or just about equal to Palpatine. It -may- be that Mace's style best defeated Palpatine, but against Yoda's Ataru or Dooku's Makashi it might prove to be a disaster. Nothing is ever that straightforward. Well, except Whicket the Ewok versus the Death Star. THAT is a bit one-sided.

Second verse, bullshit like the first. You mistyped and said it was Palpatine versus Dooku, but I'll just chalk that up to poor typing skillz, yo. First off, no one and nothing ever ever said that the three Jedi masters Palpatine killed were even anywhere close to the best. About a year or two into the Clone Wars, Kit Fisto was about equal to Obi-Wan Kenobi. However, Kit's basic style never allowed him the defense and potential that Obi's did, thus Obi-Wan by ROTS is amazing while Kit Fisto would probably die against Anakin or Grievous. As for Dooku trying ALL his tricks and going all out on Yoda in AOTC, this is bullshit and unfounded.

Yes, Dooku fights Yoda. And his own insecurities and reluctance to slay the old Jedi master truly stay his hand, along with the fact that two jedi padawans and two jedi knights (Obi-Wan and Anakin Skywalker) broke into his mansion, with the Republic no doubt on their heels. Again, Dooku was no fool and took the easy way out. I'd like to point out that at this point Dooku was heavily conflicted with love for his old master and fear of his new master. Dooku was under the illusion that he could not be redeemed and that the dark side would be the end of him should he try. Thus, he made his choice and remained a Sith. And if the dark side energies -clearly- gave Dooku an advantage, than Assajj Ventress should have been confident enough to take on Anakin and Obi-Wan, seeing as she just killed two jedi masters that day.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Nothing is ever that straightforward. Well, except Whicket the Ewok versus the Death Star. THAT is a bit one-sided.


Go Whicket! JK.

I agree with what Janus said. He starting to follow my lead more everyday. JK. Except for the part about agreeing with him.

Darth_Janus
lol... roit.

darthrevan89
Wiket winsss!!! lol11!!1!

Darth Windu
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Go Whicket! JK.

I agree with what Janus said. He starting to follow my lead more everyday. JK. Except for the part about agreeing with him.

jk? JK!? Whicket would lose to the Death Star? Whata re you on? He met LUKE SKYWALER, the God of the Force! Luke's power is so great that transfers to othjers, which is the only reason that Padme was the Chosen One! DUH!! That means Whicket would own with his Skywalker skillz!!

. . . .

Darth_Janus
lmao... The hierarchy goes like this...

Padme Nekkid>Whicket>TPM Annie>Darth Binks>That one old guy in the intro of ANH with crazy ass sideburns

Darth Windu
yes

Thou hath mastered the art of rating. I conmgratulte thee on thy success. BUt still, Luke=Everyone PWN3deth.

DarkExar
No one atchally has seen dookus full power as he couldnt relli do it to anakin in Ep III As the emp told him not to kill him

Admiral Akbar
Man, dooku would use the force to move his lightsaber around in the air, and still own anakin. NO HANDS!

Kam Solusar
We never really finished this. and i still want to see who you guys would say win

Darth_Glentract
I am now under the belief that Makashi is weak against forms that use a lot of brute strength. Mace uses the two brute forms, five and seven. I am going to give this to Mace. Dooku is better overall for fighting Jedi, but Mace would win this fight because of a form advantage.

Lord Janus
Glentract, that is a damn stupid observation. Anakin Skywalker had more brute strength then Obi-Wan or Dooku even as of AOTC, and he still got served. Do you have anything to back this up, or is this another bout of Glentract mind changing? Not to be an ass, because I don't have anything against you... but prove up man!

atlant80
Edited
LJ stole what i wanted to say

Kam Solusar
anyway Janus, your usually right, who do you reckon?

Darth_Glentract
Read the ROTS novel. I know you don't like it, but it is as canon as any other book. The Dooku fight.

Pg. "Skywalker's Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had the ataro gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makasi simply didn't generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head."

Fishy
The rots novel is as un cannon as SW books can get... It directly contradicts the movies, its an authors view on an unfinished product. Whatever is said in there can not be taken as a truth.

Darth_Glentract
None of you have shown anything to back it down with.

Fishy
To do what?

Destroy the book? It contradicts the movies, its not cannon its false you can't use it as a source pure and simple.

Makashi being weak against people with pshyical power? There is no evidence of that at all. How could Dooku have ever won from Mace in the first place? How could he have taken out Obi Wan and Anakin in AOTC? And how could he have been better in ROTS? His style isn't weak against people that hit hard, there is absolutely no evidence for it at all.

Illustrious
Well, if you go by the novelization, it even says Dooku wanted to draw Anakin towards the dark side, and have Sidious do the rest. Suspicious, isn't it?

Kam Solusar
Ok we have established that the books maybe wrong but who would win this fight? I think it would be mace however i could be swayed another way?

Darth_Glentract
How do you know Dooku is better than the pair of them? He LOST to them. The movie shows this. It was the book that we used to figure out that Dooku wasn't trying his hardest. But now your saying that we should all crap on the book? That doesn't make any sense.

atlant80
Dooku listens to sids who wanted Anikan as an apprentice. Dooku can pwn anikan but sids said no. it is and always be like that.

Kam Solusar
but could Dooku pwn Mace?

atlant80
no but he would beat him i think after a very hard fight

Kam Solusar
i dont think he could on geonosis, after all they are in a battle. any stray blaster bolts come and dooku is in a bit of a tight spot. Vapaad can take bolts fluently but Makashi, would have to stop for a moment and mace could attack then this would be the advantage Mace needs to win.

Sorgo
Apparently, Dooku would last two seconds in the Geonosian ring because of Gunfire. I am sure that in more than seventy years of Jedi Training, he only learned to practition or master one form.



Sarcasm? I think so.

Darth Faunus
Who keeps bringing this crap piles back up?

DarthMaul9123
mace technically beat the sids n' suds so he beats dooku

ESB-1138
Sidious defeated Yoda that doesn't make Mace better then Yoda. Dooku is better then Mace in the force and lightsaber combat.

DarthMaul9123
oh but DID sids beat yoda....

atlant80
yes

ESB-1138
Originally posted by DarthMaul9123
oh but DID sids beat yoda....
Yes. Yoda ran from the fight and said, "Failed I have..." that pretty much says it all.

DarthMaul9123
well i guess
but still this battle never happened so we need to use whatever proof we have to make it plausible

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by atlant80
Dooku listens to sids who wanted Anikan as an apprentice. Dooku can pwn anikan but sids said no. it is and always be like that.

To bad Dooku didn't know Sidious wanted Anakin as his apprentice.

atlant80
yea he would have pwned anikan

Darth_Glentract
It's Anakin.

atlant80
woohps my bad embarrasment

Darth_Glentract
you do that all of the time. it's kinda funny

atlant80
no one told me because..... mad stick out tongue big grin

Darth_Glentract
I thought you would get mad or something.

Kam Solusar
I was not saying Dooku couldnt deflect the bolts, i was saying Mace would be able to do it swiftly whereas Dooku would make it Ragged in comparison, he would not get hit by it, Just mace could lunge an attack at that point that could be fatal

Sorgo
Originally posted by Kam Solusar
I was not saying Dooku couldnt deflect the bolts, i was saying Mace would be able to do it swiftly whereas Dooku would make it Ragged in comparison, he would not get hit by it, Just mace could lunge an attack at that point that could be fatal


How do you know? You haven't seen Dooku deflect a Blaster bolt. Don't make poor assumptions. It's quite rude.

Kam Solusar
im not being rude, but it commonly known that makashi is weak against blaster bolts. and unless i have made a huge mistake Dooku uses Makashi. Now the chances are that there wont be any stray fire in which case Dooku proberbly wins after a while. But I was just saying its a possiblity that you have to think of, is that rude?

Sorgo
Originally posted by Kam Solusar
im not being rude, but it commonly known that makashi is weak against blaster bolts. and unless i have made a huge mistake Dooku uses Makashi. Now the chances are that there wont be any stray fire in which case Dooku proberbly wins after a while. But I was just saying its a possiblity that you have to think of, is that rude?



Do you think from 70 years of Jedi Training that Makashi is the only Form Dooku mastered/Use/Practitioned/knew of?


Seriously. For one, he was brought into the Order as a Youngling, and Younglings must first learn Form I, So he obviously knows that, and Form I deflects blaster bolts. Plus, for all we know, he has mastered all seven forms.

Kam Solusar
Look, Dookus in an exchange of blows with mace a bolt comes he then has to change form to a weaker duel style than vapaad handing the advantage back to Mace. im not saying Dooku cant deflect its just an extra hastle.

Sorgo
Originally posted by Kam Solusar
Look, Dookus in an exchange of blows with mace a bolt comes he then has to change form to a weaker duel style than vapaad handing the advantage back to Mace. im not saying Dooku cant deflect its just an extra hastle.


What makes you think it wont be a hassle for the "ALMIGHTY WINDU!!!1111"

His form isn't a solid dueling Form. While Mace handled the bolts, Dooku could chop him up just as easily as Mace chopping Dooku up while Dooku blocks bolts. Think about it.

Kam Solusar
Vapaad is good at deflecting bolts. i know dooku could hammer him then but at least he dosnt have to change styles.

Kam Solusar
Janus, whats your opinion, and you to Faunus, you two are normally right?

Lord Janus
Well, the only instance I've ever seen that says Makashi sucks against blaster bolts is KOTOR II. And that doesn't hold water with me.
http://swg.stratics.com/content/gameplay/professions/jedi/lightsaber_combat.php

Darth Faunus
Well, I don't think stray blaster bolts are going to be bringing down dueling monsters in the calibre of these two. Sure, it may be somewhat of a hassle having to block a saber and the stray blaster bolts, or maybe even purposefully fired bolts.

Now, it is of my belief that Dooku is almost purely a Makashi duelist. The purest duelist, in that sense, of his time. However, it would be foolish to assume that, after eight goddamn decades of training, he would be dumbfounded by a blaster bolt. Now, the Force is somewhat hindered here, seeing as how the duelists aren't going to be able to pull off a strong Force attack without exposing themselves to fire. So, this essentially comes down to a duel, which could go either way. But by Dooku's completely saber-oriented style, I'd give him the victory. However, only by the slimmest of margins.

Kam Solusar
I know its not official but it also says about the bolts in wikipedia......?
any way thanks Faunus.

kingkman
i know that nobody can actually be 100% and i know that some of you will agree with me while others disagree but the way i see it, mace windu was a better duelist than count dooku and i don't think force powers would be a factor in the result of this duel (it is already known that mace windu was great at resisting force powers, even better than master yoda) so therefor mace windu wins. Now you can disagree but just remember that nobody can completely be right so lets try to keep this forum free of arguments and cursing and stick to debating tour issues.

DarthMaul9123
yes more debating less pointless arguments

Kam Solusar
I dont think he was a greater duelist but a greater swordsman, if that makes sence, he weilded his weapon better than any other but not duel as well. I suppose this mean Dooku will win

DarthMaul9123
dooku was a jedi/sith a little bit longer than mace was a jedi

Darth Faunus
Originally posted by kingkman
i know that nobody can actually be 100% and i know that some of you will agree with me while others disagree but the way i see it, mace windu was a better duelist than count dooku and i don't think force powers would be a factor in the result of this duel (it is already known that mace windu was great at resisting force powers, even better than master yoda) so therefor mace windu wins. Now you can disagree but just remember that nobody can completely be right so lets try to keep this forum free of arguments and cursing and stick to debating tour issues.

No need to play the Mod.

And pray tell, how is Mace Windu better at anything than Yoda when it comes to combat?

kingkman
well faunus, sorry to burst your bubble but as you see in the film star wars episode 3 : revenge of the sith, mace windu is about to strike sidious down but is caught off guard and is still able to block it, whereas yoda was caught off guard by sidious and lost his lightsaber. And im sure that if given the chance under circumstances like yoda, mace windu would have been able to block it with his hands aswell. I dont play the mod but when i see someone like you who sees themselves as god pick on someone for no good reason i like to stop it.

Nai Fohl
Originally posted by kingkman
well faunus, sorry to burst your bubble but as you see in the film star wars episode 3 : revenge of the sith, mace windu is about to strike sidious down but is caught off guard and is still able to block it


Where did Sidious ever catch Mace off guard ?



He dropped his lightsaber - how often do I have to repeat that ?



Mace might be able to block lightning with his hands. But still Yoda is the superior duellist and force user - in fact he is the most powerful force user and duellist in the movies.

Windu and Dooku might be quiet close in both duelling skills and force power but I still say that the Shatterpoint ability will give Mace the edge on Dooku.

kingkman
he was caught offguard when mace was talking to him once sidious was unarmed and was able to release his fury of force lightning which mace probably never knew he could do. Yoda didn't drop his lightsaber, it was knocked out of his hand by the lightning. And lastly you should read up on what we were debating instead of jumping to conclusions, we were never discussing who was the better out of dooku and yoda.

Darth_Glentract
You aren't helping Mace by saying he was caught off gaurd.

Darth Faunus
Originally posted by kingkman
well faunus, sorry to burst your bubble but as you see in the film star wars episode 3 : revenge of the sith, mace windu is about to strike sidious down but is caught off guard and is still able to block it, whereas yoda was caught off guard by sidious and lost his lightsaber. And im sure that if given the chance under circumstances like yoda, mace windu would have been able to block it with his hands aswell. I dont play the mod but when i see someone like you who sees themselves as god pick on someone for no good reason i like to stop it.

Picking on? Tsk. I thought you were alright fo r a second there. . . Do yourself a favor; go back and read through that thread in which I was 'picking on', playing 'the bully', whatever. You think anyone there's light on the insults, the slurs? It's because of people like you, those who make these thought-less assumptions and insinuations, that I started doing things like that. So next time, watch it.

And Mace can't compare with Yoda there, not by far.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
And Mace can't compare with Yoda there, not by far.

I beg to differ. Although it was fate that saved Sidious from Yoda, Mace did a very good job against him. Yoda would definatly defeat Mace, but not by a lot.

Darth Faunus
Originally posted by kingkman
he was caught offguard when mace was talking to him once sidious was unarmed and was able to release his fury of force lightning which mace probably never knew he could do. Yoda didn't drop his lightsaber, it was knocked out of his hand by the lightning. And lastly you should read up on what we were debating instead of jumping to conclusions, we were never discussing who was the better out of dooku and yoda.

Read up yourself; you seem to miss the point in threads, like on the one in which I was 'picking on' people. Nai was calling on that fact because you stated that Mace could outdo Yoda in defensive Force techniques.

Darth Faunus
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I beg to differ. Although it was fate that saved Sidious from Yoda, Mace did a very good job against him. Yoda would definatly defeat Mace, but not by a lot.

*sigh* Of course he would, I've stated that many times myself. It's a slight exaggeration meant to accentuate a point.

Nai Fohl
Originally posted by kingkman
he was caught offguard when mace was talking to him once sidious was unarmed and was able to release his fury of force lightning which mace probably never knew he could do.

Mace had his lightsaber ignited and was concentrated on Sidious. That isn't "off guard". The only one that caught Mace off guard was Anakin when he cut Mace arm off.



You were basically saying that Mace was superior to Yoda. And therefore I was calling on the fact that Yoda dropped his lightsaber. If you don't thrust me watch the movie again or go read the movie script before telling me that I'm "jumping to conclusions".

Lord Janus
Great, more know it all noobs...

Kam Solusar
lol.

kingkman
maybe you should take your own advice faunus. Nai's words were Yoda is the superior duelist and force user. And he didn't once directly mention anything about defensive force powers

Nai Fohl
Originally posted by kingkman
maybe you should take your own advice faunus. Nai's words were Yoda is the superior duelist and force user. And he didn't once directly mention anything about defensive force powers

When I say that Yoda is the superior force user that actually means he has superior defensive force powers (compared to Dooku, Mace and anyone else).

Yoda was the only individual in the movies that not only could redirect the force lightning but could simply absorb it (seen in AotC against Dooku). Dooku can deflect it with his hand - maybe Mace would be able to do that too but Mace had to use his lightsaber to deflect Sidious lightning where Yoda used his bare hands. If this would not have been the case Mace would have deflected the lightning with the one hand while killing Sidious with the other - obviously he wasn't able to do that.

So where did you get the idea that Mace had superior defensive force powers compared to Yoda ?

kingkman
Mace used his lightsaber to block it because he had a choice and i think anybody with that choice would use their lightsaber. Yoda was unable to block the first wave of lightning by sidious. The only time mace windu is not able to block it is when he has had his other hand cut off. when you said "If this would not have been the case Mace would have deflected the lightning with the one hand while killing Sidious with the other - obviously he wasn't able to do that." did you assume that yoda could because if you did you are very wrong. He would be struggling wiht the lightning to attack with the other hand.Also mace was not only able to block the lightning but also redirect it back at sidious, something yoda was never able to do in his fights with dooku and sidious. Now do you understand where i got the idea mace had superior defence to force powers than yoda

Fishy
Yoda absorbed it and threw it back..

Mace reflected it with his lightsaber? Well I wouldn't even call it that... The lightning hit his lightsaber and just reflected, Obi wan reflected Dooku his lightning in AOTC with a lightsaber and it flew back a bit not far enough to hit Dooku. But Sidious and Mace were closer and Sidious put a lot more power into it. All Mace had to do was keep his lightsaber in front of Sidious his lightning and hold on. It hardly makes him more powerful.

kingkman
So what he also got hit by lighting without blocking it before and lost his lightsaber due to not being able to handle sidious's lightsaber. And if i remember correctly didn't yoda lose because he absorbed the lightning. He didn't absorb it and throw it back. He absorbed it and created an explosion which in fact caused him to lose the high ground and did more damage to him than sidious. And do you really think sidious is so weak that his lightning just reflects back when blocked. Er no. Mace totally redirected it and you say that it was easier for him to do so because he was so close. You could also say that it was easier for sidious to hit him because it was so close. And the fact that it was so close probably means that it was a lot more powerful when it hit mace than when it hit yoda.

Darth Faunus
Do you read your own posts?, because I don't think anyone could know what they're writing and still write things that silly.

Nai Fohl
Originally posted by kingkman
So what he also got hit by lighting without blocking it before and lost his lightsaber due to not being able to handle sidious's lightsaber.


WTF ? You are talking about Yoda ? Yoda lost his lightsaber because he had to drop it to deflect Sidious lightning (he needed both hands) and in fact he forced Sidious to drop his lightsaber before that because Sidious can't handle Yoda in a lightsaber duel.



Yoda absorbed Dookus lightning in AotC and he did that with ONE HAND. Yoda didn't create the explosion. He reflected the lightning thereby the force energy was stored between him and Sidious and than it exploded. And Sidious had the "high ground" not Yoda - Yoda hat just bad luck not having a grip on his side of that Senate pod.



WTF ? Yoda DID reflect Sidious lightning on point blank range. He was closer to Sidious than Mace and still Mace had to use his lightsaber to keep that lightning away were Yoda was using his bare hands and in fact dropped the lightsaber to reflect the lightning.

That lightning is absorbed by a lightsaber blade and I think Yoda wanted to kill Sidious by deflecting it where all other people just had to keep it away from them (using their lightsaber).

To say Mace was better than Yoda is simply STUPID - either that or you are a Sidious / Mace fanboy.

kingkman
are you really saying that yoda purposely dropped his saber because he needed to block it with his hands. thats actually quite funny surry thing nai fohl and sidious did not drop his lightsaber before that he put it away.
As i said it exploded he did not redirect it. And just as yoda fell sidious and yoda were on the same height and so when yoda fell of he lost the high ground. Yoda was not as close as mace. Mace was almost on top of him he was ready to strike him down. lightning is not absorbe by a saber blade as is shown when mace redirects it

Fishy
Yoda was standing closer to the edge of the pod. Sidious was standing in the middle.

Yoda is lighter then Sidious so of course he would fly farther.

When Yoda pushed Sidious his lightning back Sidious looked scared, Yoda was not just reflecting it, he pushed Sidious back thats what caused the explosion. Yoda was so much more powerful then Mace could ever hope to be. Look argueing that is like argueing about the existance of the Internet over the internet. It exists point. Use your head already.

kingkman
yoda has still been unsuccesful when it comes to lightning on 3 occasions in the films. all against sidious when he was unable to block sidious's first strike of lightning, when he lost his lightsaber due to lightning and when he caused the lightning bomb and fell of the pod. windu was unsuccessful once and that was just after having his lightsaber hand cut off.

Fishy
Yoda his first thing I agree with. The other two he won the duel but lost as a result of that... He still proved to be more powerful then Sidious.

kingkman
im not argueing about whether he was more powerful than sidious or not, i dont know about you but i was argueing that mace windu was able to defend against force powers better than yoda could

Illustrious
Yoda deflected Sidious' two hand lightning with his bare hands, and turned it back on him. How is what Mace did more impressive? Hell, even Obi-Wan was able to deflect lightning with a lightsaber.

kingkman
read everything i have already written illustrious the answers are all there

Illustrious
You said Yoda's lightsaber was knocked out of his hand and that Mace was caught off guard.

Both of these are assumptions at best. Yoda's lightsaber wasn't sheathed, he wasn't on solid ground when he was hit, how do you know how he would have reacted if you change those variables? You don't. So stop pretending you have all the answers.

kingkman
the facts are that both were caught offguard by the force lightning and yoda loses his saber whereas windu stands firm and redirects the electricity back at sidious. It doesn't take a genius to figure out who has better defence against force powers

Nai Fohl
Originally posted by kingkman
are you really saying that yoda purposely dropped his saber because he needed to block it with his hands. thats actually quite funny surry thing nai fohl and sidious did not drop his lightsaber before that he put it away.

Oh...great that you know the films better than George Lucas. Here...have a look at the ROTS script and you will find the following sentences in it:

"YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber"

"The force causes YODA to drop his lightsaber."

Ah...so Sidious did drop his lightsaber before Yoda dropped his. Stop boring me...



Yoda did redirect it the energy was stored between them and then it explodes. Sidious was standing at the middle of the pod while Yoda was standing on the outside of it so Sidious was in fact in the better position and still he was blown out of the pod and got lucky being able to hold on to that pod.



Cool. Yoda was in fact closer to Sidious than Mace was. If you don't believe me explain the following picture and tell me how Mace could have been "closer":

kingkman
the force causes yoda to drop his lightsaber, i know but you said he did it on purpose which is just stupid.

Illustrious
Originally posted by kingkman
the facts are that both were caught offguard by the force lightning and yoda loses his saber whereas windu stands firm and redirects the electricity back at sidious. It doesn't take a genius to figure out who has better defence against force powers

Mace wasn't flying through the air to try to land on Sidious' pod. He didn't drop his lightsaber and STILL manage to reflect the lightning back at Sidious. Hell, like I said, even Obi-Wan managed to block lightning from a Sith Lord with a saber, are you going to argue Obi-Wan has more "defense against force powers" than Yoda?

Nai Fohl
Originally posted by kingkman
the force causes yoda to drop his lightsaber, i know but you said he did it on purpose which is just stupid.

Watch the movie again. Yoda jumps up, drops his lightsaber and immediatly deflects Sidious lightning so he dropped it before being "hit" and thereby it is stupid to say that Sidious shot the lightsaber out of his hand.

Admiral Akbar
Speaking of the geonosis arena i just got this from hyperspace.

In early versions of the Episode II script, the Jedi rescue on Geonosis was to take place on two fronts - the 200 Jedi who swarmed the arena, as well as a second smaller group of Jedi, led by Ki-Adi-Mundi, who were to advance on a Federation Droid Control Ship that was landed nearby. Ki-Adi-Mundi's mission was to knock-out central control theoretically disabling all of the planet's droids - as Anakin had done in The Phantom Menace.

Some of the live action elements to create this sequence were photographed in Sydney. When Burtt assembled this footage with animatics in the context of the entire Battle of Geonosis, Lucas decided that the failed raid was ultimately confusing and did not offer enough payoff for the screen time required.

So if anyone was wondering where plo koon and ki adi's strike team were. there it is. It is in Lucas's script notes but there was no time to film it.

Darth Faunus
Plo Koon and Ki-Adi-Mundi were in the arena. There was no other strike team; that was planned, but never done.

Admiral Akbar
yes it was planned and it was originally written too. But it wouldent work because they had no time to film it.

Im just saying this because people call them wusses. They did nothing and were escorted into the survival circle by droids.

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