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Sidious dosen't really display any power except for the lightning and Dooku knows how to use lightning and choke and.........

SEARCH BUTTON!In saber battle Dooku.

Seen as Yoda could hold Dookus lightning, but not Sidious' i believe this is because Sidious is stronger

I took Mechmoggy's advice and searched first and nothing came up only ten threads and not one was dooku vs. sids. (this is separate from all those team battles) Yoda held off Sid's lightning just fine but sids moved closer and Yoda decided to give him a taste of his own medicine. (Yoda didn't lose to sids either he just flew farther cause he's light and just cause you don't fly far dosen't mean you don't feel pain wait.........i'm off topic.

Originally posted by Kam Solusar
Seen as Yoda could hold Dookus lightning, but not Sidious' i believe this is because Sidious is stronger
And that is why you are a n00b.

Well, in saber combat I believe Dooku would own him. However, to say Sdious' command of the Force is better than Dooku's is a bit premature. Perhaps his Sith lore is better (Hence his awesome Sith lightning). However, Dooku easily vanquished Obi-Wan with the Force.... And since Mace Windu (who was a bit surprised and taken aback) can deflect the lightning at close range... Dooku, who is stronger in the Force and has more experience in Sith lore, would be able to counter such measures. So why was Dooku the apprentice? That's another story, although I have some ideas.

Sidious was already the master and probly offered Dooku revenge on the corrupt republic....

I think Dooku was the apprentice because Sidious was so well entrenched and had Sith lore Dooku wanted to learn, not because Dooku was that much inferior.

I agree. . . Which is why both Sidious and Dooku were able to fight Yoda to a standstill. . . Dooku has just risen in the ranks.

One thing though; I went to see Star wars again yesterday night. In his battle against the Jedi, Dooku's expression did seem kind of surprised. . . I don't think he was completely in control of the fight. Now, I think he would have defeated both had he not had his orders, but after Anakin kicks him down and they lock, Dooku has the advantage. Here he tells Anakin to use his anger and fear, etc. That's the point where Anakin takes out Dooku. I think the Count was overwhelmed by this sudden turn, because if he wasn't, then he wouldn't have had his hands chopped off. I don't know. . .

Count Dooku is an exceptional duellist to be sure. He fought Yoda to a standstill and it is said he has bested Mace Windu in times previous. He also managed to take Obi-Wan and Anakin simultaneously and defeat them in battle.

If they ever dueled, Dooku is no pushover. And I don't think he had any ambition to betray and conquer Sidious. I think he just wanted to know as much about The Force as he could - and we all know Sidious has more knowledge of The Force than Dooku. Perhaps that is the reason.

However, I would have to say that Dooku is inferior to Sidious in Force powers, which would give Palpatine the edge. In a battle of The Force, Sidious would crush Dooku. Or I assume.

Sidious wins.

It is difficult to pin down just how powerful Sidious is or isn't. Dooku we know is powerful because of all the praise heaped on him by Yoda, and by his confrontations with Anakin, Ob-Wan, and Yoda. Sidious has no history that we can judge him by, and the only reliable things in the movies are his duels with Mace and Yoda. There isn't anything in these two duels that suggests to me that Sidious could kill Dooku.
And yet Dooku is the apprentice. It is the way of the Sith for the apprentice to kill the master as soon as he is the stronger of the two, then find an apprentice for himself. This ensures that the Sith are always as strong as possible.
I have to conclude that if Tyrranus could have killed Sidious, he would have.

Okay. . . in a one-on-one, Sidious would beat Dooku. Watch Yoda vs. Sidious. Yoda could outsaber Sidious, so he ran away and "defeated" him with the Force. Same with Dooku. That would however, be an awesome battle, with Lightning and metal and pods flying around everywhere. . . and it wouldn't be easy for Sids.

um dooku sucks. dooku should off saw that sidiuos wanted anackin as his aprrentice and not dooku anymore. dooku got what he deserved and sucks.

1. Yoda and Sidious were equal in saber combat. I don't recall seeing Yoda outfighting or disarming Sidious or vice-versa. Every move Yoda made, Sidious countered. Every move. Same for Yoda. So don't go around saying that unless you have evidence, Darth Windu.

2. If Yoda apparently could crush Dooku as many people say, and Sidious fought him to a standstill, then I would have to say Sidious could probably beat Dooku. If you say it would be difficult, then I s'pose that Dooku and Yoda and Sidious are all just about equal to one another.

Clawed The Bum. As much as I believe Dooku would never defeat or best Sidious, I will say that he does not suck. Dooku is an exceptional duellist. He is skilled, amazingly so, enough to battle the vast majority of the Jedi and win - take on Anakin and Obi-Wan - and battle Yoda.

Here's some Somebody- Sidious did counter Yoda's moves, and with skill as well. So don't jump to any conclusions before you think about the situation. If Sidious was so on par and equaled with Yoda, why'd he have to constantly run away? Why did he leap away onto a pod when he fought Yoda saber-to-saber on the podium? Thought so. Sidious knew that in a direct confrontation he would lose; hence why he chose to try and run away at the beginning. I saw the movie last night man; it's fresh in my memory.

I'd believe, sidious would win, due to his supperoirity of the force. And i beleive I read something earlier in this thread about someone saying that dooko is a better force user and duelist(saber wise) if so then annakin would have no problem, so if your stating that dooko is better in saber skills, your stating that anakin and yopda could tyake sidious, whixch is not true, my opinion though.

Well think, Darth Windu. We know Sidious is a coward and rarely likes to take BIG risks. Yoda was a variable in this fight that he had no control over. The odds were high that he would lose. He and Yoda fought equally with sabers. He wanted to tip the odds instead of waiting for Yoda to possibly strike him down. So he put distance between them and switched tactics from melee combat to ranged.

Good reasoning, Somebody.

But the point is he could not overcome Yoda face-to-face. Sidious NEEDED the high ground. If Sidious sat there in his office and whupped Yoda's ass or even came close to whupping his ass, I don't think the issue would be so split.

But what everyone saw, you me, Windu, etc... Is Sidious playing smart, but playing dirty. In an honest fight he could not take the advantage, and I would assume on level ground Yoda would eventually tire him out or destroy him. Why? Watch Yoda and tell me you think Sidious could have killed him in saber combat.

So we've established that Sidious can't beat Yoda in a fair fight. How does that affect Dooku not being able to off Sidious?

i give dooku that he is strong in the force and also good at dueling. but i he is kinda dumb. as i stated before he should of knew that sidiuos wanted to replace him. he is so weak were sidiuos is so strong at. and sidiuos is almost unarguebly better then dooku in the force. so what else does that leave? lightsaber combat. we know dooku is good at lightsaber combat. some people say that sidiuos is not good at lightsaber combat. why? when has sidiuos done something wrong in a lightsaber duel? he got attacked by 4 of the best lightsabers duelers and killed three of them. he was surprised by the attack and still did well. that is one posibility. the other is he knew of the atack and lost to mace on purpose. either way he is a good dueler.

Dooku would definetly kill Sidious in a Lightsaber and force fight. Although, yes, it would be a long and hard match, Dooku would come out ontop.

Dooku wasn't the Master because Sidious may not be as good with the Lightsaber and the force as Dooku, but Sidious' sneaky and manipulative persuasion techniques were unmatched.

Sidious was a Mastermind when it came to manipulating people and twisting them. Even someone so experienced as Dooku did not see Sidious' do this to him or Sidious' master plan. Dooku is proof that Sidious that almost manipulate anybody.


But if Sidious ever tried to strike Dooku down with a saber....

Sidious would meet his end.

Unless he tried to lightning him out of a window. . . Just kidding. Dooku is highly underestimated, and has now risen in the ranks! Okay.

You're telling me you believe Count Dooku could best Darth Sidious in a Force battle, Lordsorgo? That's a very tall claim. What proof do you have to support it?

I doubt that, but if he'd practiced longer and harder, I think he'd be able to defeat Sidious, and be right up there with Yoda.

What has this forum come to, theres a reason sidious is the master, in dark rendevous and in the ROTS novelization dooku speaks of sidious with awe, you dont talk like that about somone who is weaker than you.

You don't delve into things like you should. . . Dooku and Sidious are not yet on par. But what we ARE saying is that Dooku would give Sidious hell. Look at and read ALL the posts on this thread before you say things like that.

I agree with Windu. Dooku would give sids a hell fight. And he might even come out on top. I mean he is much older, possibly just as wise. And is skills with a lightsaber are unquestionable. Dooku is not guaranteed true victory or ownage, but if he fights very wise and hard, no doubt he will become the next master.

Originally posted by Darth Windu
You don't delve into things like you should. . . Dooku and Sidious are not yet on par. But what we ARE saying is that Dooku would give Sidious hell. Look at and read ALL the posts on this thread before you say things like that.

There were a couple people I noticed that said dooku would beat sidious so I had to correct that, your right though dooku is very powerful and it wouldnt be a walk in the park.

agreed, than we all agree, sidious would fight dooko and strike him down ?

Well, I think he had the potential to.

If he'd trained longer in the Sith arts, probably.

um sidiuos could of defeated mmace windu becuase if he wanted to kill mace wimdu he could of force pushed him. remember that sidiuos did his lightning after anackin came. it was all part of his master plan. sidiuos beat yoda who was a higher rank then mace windu

Okay. What's your point? You obviously don't think much man. I don't mean to sound rude, but it's hard to have a debate with someone who doesn't think about anything.

Originally posted by Aduruth
agreed, than we all agree, sidious would fight dooko and strike him down ?

Yes its agreed, I think even Darth Windu admitted it though he didnt want to.

I think it would be Dooku cos wen he fought yoda he didnt put evry thing into it, he was trying to escape whereas sid tryed alot harder for the same outcome

Originally posted by Kam Solusar
I think it would be Dooku cos wen he fought yoda he didnt put evry thing into it, he was trying to escape whereas sid tryed alot harder for the same outcome

Kam. . . .that actually made sense! Good job.

And yes, I think that in a full-blown battle, Sidious would win. But he'd have to use the same tactics as he did against Yoda; retreating and blasting the enemy with Force powers and debris. If Dooku got Sidious into a saber duel, the Master would get owned. BUt as long as Sidious can stay a step ahead, he can win it.

thanks i do try

Originally posted by Darth Windu
Kam. . . .that actually made sense! Good job.

And yes, I think that in a full-blown battle, Sidious would win. But he'd have to use the same tactics as he did against Yoda; retreating and blasting the enemy with Force powers and debris. If Dooku got Sidious into a saber duel, the Master would get owned. BUt as long as Sidious can stay a step ahead, he can win it.

Sidious is always like 8 steps ahead.

We must have seen different movies. I went to see ROTS again on Saturday. Sidious was rushed by Yoda, and pretty badly, too. He was barely ahead. But that's Yoda. He might fare a little better against Dooku.

Originally posted by Darth Windu
We must have seen different movies. I went to see ROTS again on Saturday. Sidious was rushed by Yoda, and pretty badly, too. He was barely ahead. But that's Yoda. He might fare a little better against Dooku.

The fight against yoda went just as it had been foreseen...

Whatever dude, I don't know what you're talking about.

Great Vengeance, I think the real reason you and I don't get along is because you let your bias show in EVERYTHING you type, as does Plageus. I give Darth Somebody credit, at least we can make points and then perhaps, agree to disagree.

Hm. Vengeance, I'm gonna take a wild shot in the dark and say you're a, oh, Sidious fan?

i am bias about obi.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
The fight against yoda went just as it had been foreseen...


Um......ok? I thought Sidious said in the beginning, Master Yoda, you survived?

No. The battle with Yoda was NOT forseen - hence Sidious's reluctance to battle Yoda. If Sidious did forsee Yoda's arrival, he would have been more prepared instead of trying to leave like he did. No. Yoda's arrival was unexpected - and that is why Sidious fought for his life. Normally, he's in control of everything. But this was one variable that escaped his grasp.

Here is my theory.

Count Dooku and Darth Sidious are both Dark Lords of The Sith. That much is evident. However, Sidious was the master. Dooku never tried to usurp him. If Dooku was so much more powerful than Sidious, he would have struck him down. Sidious and Yoda are about on equal level. If many people believed Yoda would've slaughtered Count Dooku in the hanger when they dueled, Sidious would've done the same. I believe Count Dooku is vastly underrated, however. Especially when people go off and say Mace could defeat him.

To me, Count Dooku is more of a master of a lightsaber than his Force powers. If he would ever best Sidious in any department, dueling would be the closest that he could get. We sure as hell know that Sidious was much more keen and tapped into the ways of the Force - especially the Dark Side - than Dooku was. Otherwise Dooku would've offed Sidious years ago. To me, Sidious is younger than Dooku, and yet more powerful. Sidious probably has the stronger connection to the Force.

Count Dooku, in my eyes, could best anyone in the prequal trilogy save for Yoda and Sidious. And this is where things get interesting. Anakin killed Dooku in battle. Some attribute Dooku's failure to Sidious's orders. That's what the BOOK says. If that is true, then Sidious is indeed more powerful than Dooku - because the BOOK says so. Dooku's own thoughts in the book state that "no one was more keen to the ways of the Dark Side than Lord Sidious."

Anyways. I like Count Dooku, I really do. But I do believe that if he ever dueled Sidious in battle or especially in the Force - he would put up a good fight - almost as good as Yoda did - but in the end would fall to the blade of his Dark master.

Kam. . . .that actually made sense! Good job.

And yes, I think that in a full-blown battle, Sidious would win. But he'd have to use the same tactics as he did against Yoda; retreating and blasting the enemy with Force powers and debris. If Dooku got Sidious into a saber duel, the Master would get owned. BUt as long as Sidious can stay a step ahead, he can win it.
Dooku can easily use the force as shown in ATOC. Yoda and Dooku matched blade for blade neither winning nor losing. Dooku retreated yes but he did because he had the plans for the DeathStar. Sidious distance himself from Yoda knowing he'll lose if he doesn't do something.
And Sidious uses a more offensive form and Dooku is based more on his defense. I will have to say Dooku considering the facts that Dooku trained for well around 8 decades and Sidious might not have trained due to fear the Jedi will sense him when he arrived at the Senate.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Here is my theory.

Count Dooku and Darth Sidious are both Dark Lords of The Sith. That much is evident. However, Sidious was the master. Dooku never tried to usurp him. If Dooku was so much more powerful than Sidious, he would have struck him down. Sidious and Yoda are about on equal level. If many people believed Yoda would've slaughtered Count Dooku in the hanger when they dueled, Sidious would've done the same. I believe Count Dooku is vastly underrated, however. Especially when people go off and say Mace could defeat him.

To me, Count Dooku is more of a master of a lightsaber than his Force powers. If he would ever best Sidious in any department, dueling would be the closest that he could get. We sure as hell know that Sidious was much more keen and tapped into the ways of the Force - especially the Dark Side - than Dooku was. Otherwise Dooku would've offed Sidious years ago. To me, Sidious is younger than Dooku, and yet more powerful. Sidious probably has the stronger connection to the Force.

Count Dooku, in my eyes, could best anyone in the prequal trilogy save for Yoda and Sidious. And this is where things get interesting. Anakin killed Dooku in battle. Some attribute Dooku's failure to Sidious's orders. That's what the BOOK says. If that is true, then Sidious is indeed more powerful than Dooku - because the BOOK says so. Dooku's own thoughts in the book state that "no one was more keen to the ways of the Dark Side than Lord Sidious."

Anyways. I like Count Dooku, I really do. But I do believe that if he ever dueled Sidious in battle or especially in the Force - he would put up a good fight - almost as good as Yoda did - but in the end would fall to the blade of his Dark master.


. If Dooku was so much more powerful than Sidious, he would have struck him down.

Sidious is manipulative bastard! He has ways to cloud people visions and change perception. If he managed to swing someone as powerful as Count Dooku under his wing, what makes you think he wont cloud him from taking his mantle of master?


As for the Dooku/Yoda fight, Dooku was doing just fine during the entire fight, if not better. As i recall, Yoda was making grunts and noises as Dooku smiled throughout their fight. Dooku fled because he obtained the Death Star plans.

Sidious probably would not fight Dooku with the Force, but with a Lightsaber. The battle would be long and hard, But Dooku would strike Sidious down in a Lightsaber fight! People heavily underestimate Dooku's Lightsaber skills. They are near complete perfection. Dooku's strikes are swift, on time and corusive. Sidious' form is more of a direct form based apon anger and appared swings to your opponent. When it comes to Lightsabers, folks....

Dooku would just flat out ruin Sidious' shit. Sidious is not this "unstoppable god" when it comes to Lightsabers. Hell, he isn't a god with anything else, although his manipulation is close.


because the BOOK says so.

The book also says that Kit Fisto is beheaded and his head is placed apon the desk. In the movie, his chest is slashed and there is no beheading. Get my drift?


One of the only reasons Anakin won the fight with Dooku was because of Anakin's physical strength. During the end of the fight, Dooku is about to lay it to Anakin when Anakin grabs Dooku's wrists and pushes his Lightsaber over them, cutting Dooku's hands off.



In my honest opinion, Sidious would fall to Dooku.

Lol, I don't recall Dooku smiling in his duel with Yoda. He tried to best Yoda using the Force, and Yoda turned it away. Then they battled, and Dooku and Yoda were nearly even. As I said. I like Count Dooku. He is the consumate lightsaber duelist and suave gentlemen. Charm is his biggest weapon - like Sidious has his manipulation.

But no. If Sidious had nothing to offer Dooku, IF Dooku was so much more greater than Sidious as you say he is, Dooku would've taken the mantle from him long ago.

And yet he didn't.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Lol, I don't recall Dooku smiling in his duel with Yoda. He tried to best Yoda using the Force, and Yoda turned it away. Then they battled, and Dooku and Yoda were nearly even. As I said. I like Count Dooku. He is the consumate lightsaber duelist and suave gentlemen. Charm is his biggest weapon - like Sidious has his manipulation.

But no. If Sidious had nothing to offer Dooku, IF Dooku was so much more greater than Sidious as you say he is, Dooku would've taken the mantle from him long ago.

And yet he didn't.


Like i said, Sidious probably manipulated Dooku to not want to take the Mantle or to kill him. You think Anakin wouldn't have killed Sidious after he obtained his power? Sidious manipulated them both to be his puppets.

Lordsorgo, I find that theories are credible. I do not dismiss them as easily as many of the others do. Theories are important and essential. I can't dismiss your theory. And at the same time, you have no proof to indicate yours is correct. For all intents and purposes, your point of view is speculation and nothing more.

Manipulating Anakin is nothing like manipulating Dooku. Anakin may be the Chosen One. Yes, he may have killed Dooku. But to say the two were on an equal level of intellect is insulting. Dooku was much more intelligent than Vader. And yes, I do agree. Sidious did indeed control and manipulate Count Dooku. But I fear that this isn't the only reason why Dooku served Sidious.

The most difficult of your claims I find truly...unbelievable - is the fact that you even insinuate that Dooku and Sidious were on par with one another in usage and mastery of The Force. There is only one person in the trilogies who can compete with Sidious in mastery of the Force. And that is Yoda. They are each paragons of the opposite sides. The masters of the Light and the Dark.

Dooku could POSSIBLY be the greater duelist. It would make sense. He has more experience than Sidious and has practiced combat much longer. I saw someone once say that "nothing beats experience."

That is normally true. But not always so. Anakin bested Count Dooku in battle (which, in terms of continuity, does NOT make sense - considering Obi-Wan and Anakin were supposedly equals and Obi-Wan was disposed of quite neatly) because of his raw power. Raw power does indeed count, and that is something that Dooku lacks in comparison to Sidious.

Sidious is the master. And quite so. My case is much more supported than yours, I'm afraid. Dooku can only compete with Sidious or Yoda in terms of lightsaber combat (he is GREAT there) - but I doubt he has an extent of control over the Force to match Sidious's.

Originally posted by LordSorgo
. If Dooku was so much more powerful than Sidious, he would have struck him down.

Sidious is manipulative bastard! He has ways to cloud people visions and change perception. If he managed to swing someone as powerful as Count Dooku under his wing, what makes you think he wont cloud him from taking his mantle of master?


As for the Dooku/Yoda fight, Dooku was doing just fine during the entire fight, if not better. As i recall, Yoda was making grunts and noises as Dooku smiled throughout their fight. Dooku fled because he obtained the Death Star plans.

Sidious probably would not fight Dooku with the Force, but with a Lightsaber. The battle would be long and hard, But Dooku would strike Sidious down in a Lightsaber fight! People heavily underestimate Dooku's Lightsaber skills. They are near complete perfection. Dooku's strikes are swift, on time and corusive. Sidious' form is more of a direct form based apon anger and appared swings to your opponent. When it comes to Lightsabers, folks....

Dooku would just flat out ruin Sidious' shit. Sidious is not this "unstoppable god" when it comes to Lightsabers. Hell, he isn't a god with anything else, although his manipulation is close.


because the BOOK says so.

The book also says that Kit Fisto is beheaded and his head is placed apon the desk. In the movie, his chest is slashed and there is no beheading. Get my drift?


One of the only reasons Anakin won the fight with Dooku was because of Anakin's physical strength. During the end of the fight, Dooku is about to lay it to Anakin when Anakin grabs Dooku's wrists and pushes his Lightsaber over them, cutting Dooku's hands off.



In my honest opinion, Sidious would fall to Dooku.


Good job. But as you said, Sids is a manipulative bastard. And if so, he won't choose the fighting style and type that Dooku favors; a duel. He'll try to run away while blasting the Count with Force abilities. Now Dooku is perhaps second only to Yoda and his Master in this department, but I think Sids would take him after a grueling battle. Maybe.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Lordsorgo, I find that theories are credible. I do not dismiss them as easily as many of the others do. Theories are important and essential. I can't dismiss your theory. And at the same time, you have no proof to indicate yours is correct. For all intents and purposes, your point of view is speculation and nothing more.

Manipulating Anakin is nothing like manipulating Dooku. Anakin may be the Chosen One. Yes, he may have killed Dooku. But to say the two were on an equal level of intellect is insulting. Dooku was much more intelligent than Vader. And yes, I do agree. Sidious did indeed control and manipulate Count Dooku. But I fear that this isn't the only reason why Dooku served Sidious.

The most difficult of your claims I find truly...unbelievable - is the fact that you even insinuate that Dooku and Sidious were on par with one another in usage and mastery of The Force. There is only one person in the trilogies who can compete with Sidious in mastery of the Force. And that is Yoda. They are each paragons of the opposite sides. The masters of the Light and the Dark.

Dooku could POSSIBLY be the greater duelist. It would make sense. He has more experience than Sidious and has practiced combat much longer. I saw someone once say that "nothing beats experience."

That is normally true. But not always so. Anakin bested Count Dooku in battle (which, in terms of continuity, does NOT make sense - considering Obi-Wan and Anakin were supposedly equals and Obi-Wan was disposed of quite neatly) because of his raw power. Raw power does indeed count, and that is something that Dooku lacks in comparison to Sidious.

Sidious is the master. And quite so. My case is much more supported than yours, I'm afraid. Dooku can only compete with Sidious or Yoda in terms of lightsaber combat (he is GREAT there) - but I doubt he has an extent of control over the Force to match Sidious's.


I respect your opinion to a high level, but i must inlist mine.


As i said before, Yes, Sidious is a Mastermind and he is good, but he is not a god and he can be beaten. Dooku was an extremely underrated Sith Lord who was one to be Manipulated by Sidious. With Anakin's staggering Arrogance, he would have normally tried to kill Sidious with his "powers". As everyone always says "Sidious has the power to cloud perception and cloud minds". Sidious WAS indeed cowardly and he probably clouded Dooku and Anakin's vision from trying to kill Sidious. I am sure one of them would have tried.


Dooku and Sidious were on par with one another in usage and mastery of The Force. There is only one person in the trilogies who can compete with Sidious in mastery of the Force. And that is Yoda

Even so, Dooku would still be able to absorb Sidious' force powers, because he did with Yoda's when Yoda fired that absorbs lightning back at Dooku, and if Yoda and Sidious are "on par" this would mean that Dooku would be able to absorb Sidious' force.

Sidious isn't the type to sit there and throw Force powers around all day. He used his saber with four Jedi and Yoda, so he is gonna use it with Dooku, and because of Dooku's staggering knowledge of Lightsaber combat over Sidious, he would probably win the battle.

But to say the two were on an equal level of intellect is insulting. Dooku was much more intelligent than Vader.

I never said this. I was judging Sidious' manipulation powers, which are heavy.

If Dooku was older and more experienced, why wasn't he the master? Because of Sidious' manipulation.

But according to some select fans, Dooku did try to take over Sidious' mantle, but Sidious used Anakin on Grievous' ship to make sure this didn't happen. If Sidious wasn't willing to take out Dooku himself, this presents him as smart, but also alot more cowardly at the same time. Palpatine knew of Dooku's power, knowledge and Lightsaber skills and used an expendable pawn to dispose of Dooku.

Now, as I said, I agree that Dooku has nigh unparalleled power. But I doubt that it is superior par with Sidious. Here's how I judge them;

Dueling- I give this to Dooku. I'd go so far as to say that he is superior to anyone, his only rivals being Mace and Yoda, the former of which is questionable.

Force Mastery- Sidious, but its rather close, no question. The Count stood up to Yoda, who, if I may say so myself, is the most powerful being in the movies.

Raw Power- Same as above, although I think Dooku might have a chance here. I've read in a couple of sources that Dooku had vast potential, meaning that this is no doubt close as well.

Tactics- Depends. Dooku obviously showed excellent work when he fired, blocked, and reflected his own Lightning in his battle against Yoda. He also managed to throw a variety of environmental objects, and distracted Yoda well enough so that he could escape. Sidious displayed similar tactics against the same person, when he realized his disadvantage and sought higher ground for the win. This is open to debate.

And in numeral terms, from 1 to 10. Also, I added a vs. ?, a new characteristic.

Dueling Skill

Sidious- 8
Dooku- 10

Force Mastery

Sidious- 10
Dooku- 9

Raw Power

Sidious- 9
Dooku-8

Tactics

Sidious- 10
Dooku- 10

Against Single Opponent

Sidious- 8
Dooku- 10

Against Multiple Opponents

Sidious- 10
Dooku- 9

So this comes out to Sidious- 55 and Dooku- 56. I surprise myself by the outcome! As you can see, very close. I gave Sidious the vs. Multiple points because of how he dispatched the three Jedi, and took away from his vs. Single because of his struggles with Windu and Yoda. And I gave Dooku a 10 for Singles because he's won, or at leats not lost, every duel he was in save for the one against Obi-Wan and Anakin, in which he died. Hence the 9.

I'd almost agree with that. Except for the Raw Power and the Saber skills. I'd say IF Dooku is a ten (he's sure as hell nothing below a nine) Sidious would be a nine himself. Yoda sure as hell didn't easily outclass either of them.

In Force Mastery he does for sure. Only barely, but still. I'd say Sidious equals Yoda in Force Mastery, but not Raw Power. And Dooku is at the top of the saber list because of his insurmountable saber skills. Sidious used his saber little, and was on the retreat, struggling, against the Jedi he used it on, Mace and Yoda.

Force Mastery:
----------------

Count Dooku: 09/10
Darth Sidious: 10/10

Force Connection:
--------------------

Count Dooku: 08/10
Darth Sidious: 09/10

Raw Force Power:
--------------------

Count Dooku: 07/10
Darth Sidious: 09/10

Force Knowledge:
--------------------

Count Dooku: 09/10
Darth Sidious: 10/10

Combat Ability:
-----------------

Count Dooku: 09/10
Darth Sidious: 09/10

Lightsaber Skills:
-------------------

Count Dooku: 10/10
Darth Sidious: 09/10 (Possibly a 10; You're all hard on Sidious here)

Combat Tactics:
------------------

Count Dooku: 09/10
Darth Sidious: 09/10

Combat Experience:
----------------------

Count Dooku: 10/10
Darth Sidious: 09/10 (Possibly an 8; He didn't fight as much)

Now you're making it complicated. . . and how is Dooku a 7 in raw power? He gave Yoda trouble.

And NO ONE steals my rating methods. (jk) (NOT)

From studies of Count Dooku, to me, he is similar to Darth Sidious in many ways. For example. His greatest and most deadly weapon is not his mastery of lightsaber combat or his skill with The Force. But rather, his charm, sophistication, eloquence, and subtle persuasion.

Darth Sidious is like this, as we know. He is by no means a weakling. Many have painted pictures of him as being a lower duelist, because of the lack of clear victory. This isn't the case. He held off Master Yoda, Mace Windu (which is a controversial and ambigious battle, at best) and slayed three Jedi Masters in three seconds. His greatest weapon is not his lightsaber - nor his even more devastating mastery of the Dark Side - but rather his manipulation. He can manipulate even the wisest and strongest of Jedi into serving him.

----

To my knowledge, Count Dooku's main - speciality - in combat is his skill with a lightsaber. We all know he's talented with The Force, but he is even greater with a lightsaber. Eight decades of combat experience combined with his particularly useful Form of dueling. He is a force of nature, to be sure.

But when comparing his mastery of The Force to that of Darth Sidious, you're entering a whole new world. I'm not saying he's much weaker than Sidious. But he IS weaker. He WAS the apprentice. People bank so much on Sidious's manipulative genius. Ironic, considering so many have argued against it when the time was right. Sidious had more knowledge of The Force, and his mastery was ONLY paralleled by Yoda. To me, no one else came close to these two Force Titans.

But in combat - lightsaber wise - Count Dooku is equal and possibly greater than his master. But when it comes down to The Force itself, he is not.

Which, if you saw my rating, you would know that I completely agree with.

Indeed he did. But Count Dooku struck me as the type as the sort of opposite of Anakin. Anakin didn't have much mastery over The Force. In my eyes, he mastered it only when he became the mechanized Darth Vader. He won many of his battles due to his Force Connection and sheer Raw Power. Dooku always struck me as one more focused on experience than raw power.

Experience and Raw Power are about equal. Count Dooku was calm, sophisticated, and controlling in battle. That reflects that he fought long enough to know how to control and orchestrate his fights. He knew how to fight. It was second nature to him. Notice that he doesn't overpower Anakin or perform ridiculously acrobatic moves. He isn't as powerful as Anakin in terms of sheer power. We've seen Sidious perform flips like that, uncontrolled and utterly unpredictable moves because he has strong Force power.

Dooku is experienced. He outwitted Anakin. New his weaknesses. He wasn't really faster or stronger. He thought quicker and used tactics far superior to Anakin's own.

That is what I attribute to Count Dooku.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
From studies of Count Dooku, to me, he is similar to Darth Sidious in many ways. For example. His greatest and most deadly weapon is not his mastery of lightsaber combat or his skill with The Force. But rather, his charm, sophistication, eloquence, and subtle persuasion.

Darth Sidious is like this, as we know. He is by no means a weakling. Many have painted pictures of him as being a lower duelist, because of the lack of clear victory. This isn't the case. He held off Master Yoda, Mace Windu (which is a controversial and ambigious battle, at best) and slayed three Jedi Masters in three seconds. His greatest weapon is not his lightsaber - nor his even more devastating mastery of the Dark Side - but rather his manipulation. He can manipulate even the wisest and strongest of Jedi into serving him.

----

To my knowledge, Count Dooku's main - speciality - in combat is his skill with a lightsaber. We all know he's talented with The Force, but he is even greater with a lightsaber. Eight decades of combat experience combined with his particularly useful Form of dueling. He is a force of nature, to be sure.

But when comparing his mastery of The Force to that of Darth Sidious, you're entering a whole new world. I'm not saying he's much weaker than Sidious. But he IS weaker. He WAS the apprentice. People bank so much on Sidious's manipulative genius. Ironic, considering so many have argued against it when the time was right. Sidious had more knowledge of The Force, and his mastery was ONLY paralleled by Yoda. To me, no one else came close to these two Force Titans.

But in combat - lightsaber wise - Count Dooku is equal and possibly greater than his master. But when it comes down to The Force itself, he is not.

I agree with everything here except for your statement that Yoda and Sidious are "Force Titians". The ancient, Sith Lords make Yoda and Sids look like children with toy lightsabers.

Again, you don't KNOW that. You have a quote from a video game from another Sith Lord. In that case, Revan himself would be obliterated and crushed beneath the heels of the Ancient Sith Lords. And yet I've seen you argue against it.

Ever hear of the saying "There are always exceptions to the rules?". Who's to say Yoda and Sidious aren't?

They are, to a degree. Sidious would die to every single Ancient Sith we know of, almost certainly. But when you think about that, it isn't a lot. There're a couple dozen, not even.

Once again, I'm not quite sure. There are always exceptions to the rules. I'm not saying Sidious and Yoda are the most powerful Force users to ever grace the Star Wars universe - but I do believe both are the best of their separate Orders.

Well...people didn't seem to think that much before they post...

Force powers
I don't know if you ever noticed that but there are only three persons that can redirect or absorb force lightning with their hands in the movies: Sidious, Dooku and Yoda. Yoda can absorb it. Sidious can redirect it. Dooku can at least deflect it.
Sidious might be a more powerful force user compared to Dooku (but not "outclassing" him) but Dooku would be able to deflect Sidious force lightning. So it doesn't help Sidious much to be the better force user here.

Lightsaber skill
Here Dooku obviously outclasses Sidious.
If you don't believe me: Dooku defeated Mace Windu in TPM times. We can assume that Mace can be slightly better than Dooku in ROTS times. Still Mace disarmed Sidious after what time ? 30 seconds ?

And Dooku was able to attack Yoda in AotC were Sidious in ROTS was totaly pushed into defence. Dooku uses the best lightsaber form for a duel were Sidious relies on not completed forms (form VI or VII).

Experience
Dooku is 18 years older than Sidious so he was already a force practitioner when Sidious wasn't even born. He had much more practice in lightsaber use than Sidious (including sparing with Mace and real fights with Yoda, Obi-Wan and Anakin).

Conclusion
Dooku is obviously the superior lightsaber duelist and he can nullify Sidious advantage in force powers. So he would win if there ever would be a fight between them.


"But Dooku was the apprentice !"
So what ? Did anybody here take a look at Dookus motivation ? Dooku was a political idealist. He wanted to end corruption in the Senate and he thought Sidious could be the one to end it. He although was an aristocrate so I think he hadn't much love for democracy.
He couldn't do what Sidious did because he didn't had the time to gain as much political influence as Sidious already had.

So if Dooku ever planed to kill Sidious he would have done that after the events in RotS. And yes...Dooku was manipulated by Sidious but that won't count in a duel between them.

Nai, you took the words right out of my mouth... Well done.

Ok, IMO Sidious would have this match.

1. He's the master and the master must always be stronger. He's even younger. (I know that doesn't mean much but it's a little funny.)

2. He has a much better control of the Force. For example: Dooku in AOTC used lightning against Obi-Wan. Obi blocked it with his lightsaber pathetically one-handed almost bored like. When Sidious used lightning against Mace (Who's stronger than ROTS Obi who's much stronger than AOTC Obi) Mace was having a really hard time holding it back. Sidious' Lightning was nearly too much for Yoda yet in AOTC, Yoda casually one handed reflected Dooku's lightning with much less difficulty.

3. He's a better duelist. Sidious was holding his own against Yoda in lightsaber combat, and fought really well, perhaps even on par with Yoda. Dooku on the other hand, had no chance and fled like a coward. Dooku didn't do too bad, but Yoda was not struggling against Dooku like he was against Sidious.

Sidious is really powerful and Dooku could probably survive for 30 seconds or so but then he would be toast.

I love this system even if it has its flaws. It's based on ten being good, 1 being bad.

Dueling Skill:

Dooku- 10 He stood up to Yoda and has beaten Mace before.

Sidious- 9 Was relying on his force powers to survive the fight with Yoda


Force Mastery:

Dooku- 9 Very capable in the force. Was able to contend with Yoda for a while in force powers. Overpowerd ROTS Obi-wan in force power.

Sidious- 10 The strongest force powers in the movie probably. He constantly falls back to his supeior force powers when his saber skills begin to fail him.


Raw Power:

Dooku- 9 No Anakin Skywalker, but very powerful.

Sidious- 9 Same as Dooku.


Tactics:

Dooku- 9 Led the war against the Republic for a while(had help from Grevious)

Sidious- 10 Great tactician in the PT(not so good in OT). Manipulated everyone.


Against Single Opponent:

Dooku- 10 He kicks butt against a single opponent. Period.

Sidious- 9 Not as good as Dooku un this area. Still good at it though.


Against Multiple Opponents:

Dooku- 9 Very capable. Defeated Anakin. Lost the second time because he was betrayed.

Sidious- 10 He defeated 3 very powerful Masters extremly quickly. Good at it.


Overall(pre-corrections):

Dooku- 56

Sidious- 57


Because this system isn't perfect, I need to make some slight corrections to make it as accurate as possible.


The reason that Sidious killed those three Masters so wuickly is because he was clouding thier minds with the force. Dooku draws his power from the darkside so he would not have the same clouding effect.

Against Multiple Opponents: -2 for Sidious


Overall(corrected):

Dooku- 56

Sidious- 55



Dooku wins.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Ok, IMO Sidious would have this match.

1. He's the master and the master must always be stronger. He's even younger. (I know that doesn't mean much but it's a little funny.)

2. He has a much better control of the Force. For example: Dooku in AOTC used lightning against Obi-Wan. Obi blocked it with his lightsaber pathetically one-handed almost bored like. When Sidious used lightning against Mace (Who's stronger than ROTS Obi who's much stronger than AOTC Obi) Mace was having a really hard time holding it back. Sidious' Lightning was nearly too much for Yoda yet in AOTC, Yoda casually one handed reflected Dooku's lightning with much less difficulty.

3. He's a better duelist. Sidious was holding his own against Yoda in lightsaber combat, and fought really well, perhaps even on par with Yoda. Dooku on the other hand, had no chance and fled like a coward. Dooku didn't do too bad, but Yoda was not struggling against Dooku like he was against Sidious.

Sidious is really powerful and Dooku could probably survive for 30 seconds or so but then he would be toast.


Dooku on the other hand, had no chance and fled like a coward. Dooku didn't do too bad, but Yoda was not struggling against Dooku like he was against Sidious.

That is pathetic! Dooku fled like a coward? He had the plans to the Death Star! And him and Yoda were doing almost the exact same in Lightsaber combat.

The only reason Yoda struggled with Sidious is because of Sidious' raw force power. He threw a bolt of lightning that knocked him down for a considerate amount of time, and he spent a large amount of the battle chucking large metal disc-like patio seats at him. Yoda was getting tired because of his old age. The lightsaber battle with Dooku would have been less tiring with Yoda because Dooku used more saber than force, except for the beginning of the match. Yoda even admits to Dooku that he had gotten exceptionally strong. He says nothing like that to Sidious.


He's even younger.

You say that like it is a good thing. Age grants Dooku extra Experience.

If Sidious' Lightning is so powerful, how come it took him such a long time to kill Luke with it?

Wait, thats right, he never DID kill Luke with it, now did he? He fried Luke for the longest time and Luke didn't even have visible scars. Hell, he was up and running a few minutes later.

Dooku defeated one of the greatest Jedi Masters around TWICE, he chopped the chosen ones hand off and he faired the same to Yoda.

Sidious DID kill three Jedi Masters under suprise, he had significant trouble with the fourth who almost killed him if not for Anakin walking into the room and he made Yoda flee but he couldn't kill him. Not to mention, Dooku HAS beaten Mace before.


Dooku would turn Sidious into Sith Fried Sushi. Although Sidious tops Dooku in force, Sidious has exceptional Lightsaber skill.

Sidious would do significant damage to Dooku, but Dooku would walk out on top.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I love this system even if it has its flaws. It's based on ten being good, 1 being bad.

Dueling Skill:

Dooku- 10 He stood up to Yoda and has beaten Mace before.

Sidious- 9 Was relying on his force powers to survive the fight with Yoda


Force Mastery:

Dooku- 9 Very capable in the force. Was able to contend with Yoda for a while in force powers. Overpowerd ROTS Obi-wan in force power.

Sidious- 10 The strongest force powers in the movie probably. He constantly falls back to his supeior force powers when his saber skills begin to fail him.


Raw Power:

Dooku- 9 No Anakin Skywalker, but very powerful.

Sidious- 9 Same as Dooku.


Tactics:

Dooku- 9 Led the war against the Republic for a while(had help from Grevious)

Sidious- 10 Great tactician in the PT(not so good in OT). Manipulated everyone.


Against Single Opponent:

Dooku- 10 He kicks butt against a single opponent. Period.

Sidious- 9 Not as good as Dooku un this area. Still good at it though.


Against Multiple Opponents:

Dooku- 9 Very capable. Defeated Anakin. Lost the second time because he was betrayed.

Sidious- 10 He defeated 3 very powerful Masters extremly quickly. Good at it.


Overall(pre-corrections):

Dooku- 56

Sidious- 57


Because this system isn't perfect, I need to make some slight corrections to make it as accurate as possible.


The reason that Sidious killed those three Masters so wuickly is because he was clouding thier minds with the force. Dooku draws his power from the darkside so he would not have the same clouding effect.

Against Multiple Opponents: -2 for Sidious


Overall(corrected):

Dooku- 56

Sidious- 55



Dooku wins.

Im sorry to say but that is complete bs.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Ok, IMO Sidious would have this match.

1. He's the master and the master must always be stronger. He's even younger. (I know that doesn't mean much but it's a little funny.)

2. He has a much better control of the Force. For example: Dooku in AOTC used lightning against Obi-Wan. Obi blocked it with his lightsaber pathetically one-handed almost bored like. When Sidious used lightning against Mace (Who's stronger than ROTS Obi who's much stronger than AOTC Obi) Mace was having a really hard time holding it back. Sidious' Lightning was nearly too much for Yoda yet in AOTC, Yoda casually one handed reflected Dooku's lightning with much less difficulty.

3. He's a better duelist. Sidious was holding his own against Yoda in lightsaber combat, and fought really well, perhaps even on par with Yoda. Dooku on the other hand, had no chance and fled like a coward. Dooku didn't do too bad, but Yoda was not struggling against Dooku like he was against Sidious.

Sidious is really powerful and Dooku could probably survive for 30 seconds or so but then he would be toast.

1) Not neccessarily. That's somewhat silly from you Revan; I'd expect better. The Master may have things to teach the Apprentice, but in Dooku's case, he was just a pawn. And I agree with Sorgo. Dooku's 83 years grant him nearly two decades more practice and training than Sidious.

2) True; but did you look at the expression on Dooku's face when he blasted Anakin and fired at Obi-Wan? He just threw his hand up and blasted away. But then, you see him concentrating more on Yoda, and look what happens. He blasts the ceiling to pieces with deflected lightning. And Yoda wasn't casual; he was trying. And Sidious' lightning may be powerful, but Dooku barely needed to struggle to reflect twice deflected lightning of his own. And Sidious fired at Mace from point blank range, a couple of feet away.

3) Dooku is a better duelist than Sidious. But how did Dooku flee like a coward? He knew he might die, but moreso, he carried the plans for the Death Star. It would be a HUGE loss to the Separatist cause if these were destroyed or lost. And did you see Dooku run away to higher ground? Escape a duel? Dooku outright challenged Yoda, in both a Force-battle And a duel. He STARTED the duel. Sidious tried to run away before it'd begun. Who's the bigger coward? And you're right, Yoda wasn't struggling as much. But he wasn't gaining any ground, either. He attacked and attacked, and Dooku just took it head on, taking some steps away to position himself well. Not to mention Dooku was right in front of Yoda the entire duel, not a couple of hundred feet away chucking half a dozen speeder-size pods at him while he ran towards him.

Vengeance, how is that BS? That's my system dude, and Glentract used it well, to the same outcome of mine. Nai and Janus agree as well. So BS yourself.

Originally posted by Darth Windu
1) Not neccessarily. That's somewhat silly from you Revan; I'd expect better. The Master may have things to teach the Apprentice, but in Dooku's case, he was just a pawn. And I agree with Sorgo. Dooku's 83 years grant him nearly two decades more practice and training than Sidious.

2) True; but did you look at the expression on Dooku's face when he blasted Anakin and fired at Obi-Wan? He just threw his hand up and blasted away. But then, you see him concentrating more on Yoda, and look what happens. He blasts the ceiling to pieces with deflected lightning. And Yoda wasn't casual; he was trying. And Sidious' lightning may be powerful, but Dooku barely needed to struggle to reflect twice deflected lightning of his own. And Sidious fired at Mace from point blank range, a couple of feet away.

3) Dooku is a better duelist than Sidious. But how did Dooku flee like a coward? He knew he might die, but moreso, he carried the plans for the Death Star. It would be a HUGE loss to the Separatist cause if these were destroyed or lost. And did you see Dooku run away to higher ground? Escape a duel? Dooku outright challenged Yoda, in both a Force-battle And a duel. He STARTED the duel. Sidious tried to run away before it'd begun. Who's the bigger coward? And you're right, Yoda wasn't struggling as much. But he wasn't gaining any ground, either. He attacked and attacked, and Dooku just took it head on, taking some steps away to position himself well. Not to mention Dooku was right in front of Yoda the entire duel, not a couple of hundred feet away chucking half a dozen speeder-size pods at him while he ran towards him.

Nicely done.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
1. He's the master and the master must always be stronger. He's even younger. (I know that doesn't mean much but it's a little funny.)


See my statement above.



If you realy want to start reasoning like that: Dooku threw Anakin through the entire room with his force lightning in AotC and took him out of the battle for a few minutes.
Luke in ROTJ had less training and less potential compared to Anakin in AotC. Now Sidious pushed him 1 or 2 metres backwards with the kynetic energy of his force lightning and kept using it on him for more than 30 seconds. Still Luke was back on his feet 20 seconds later and carried his farther through the half death star.

Now...I don't think that Sidious lightning is FAR more powerful than Dookus one.



Now realy. Yoda would have defeated Dooku and he also would have defeated Sidious and Sidious would have go down faster in a lightsaber duel than Dooku.
Please keep in mind that Dooku had constant training with that weapon while Sidious could only have 2 opponents before RotS: Plagueis and Maul.



Sidious would use force lightning on Dooku. Dooku will deflect it. Then they will engage in a lightsaber duel and Sidious will simply go down vs Dooku.

Originally posted by Darth Windu
Vengeance, how is that BS? That's my system dude, and Glentract used it well, to the same outcome of mine. Nai and Janus agree as well. So BS yourself.

A rating scale like that will never be effective, too many variables, besides glentract was bias anyway.

And you're not? And it can be effective, very effective; if it is used the right way.

This is amazing. I've seen people go back and forth, left and right, making excuses as to why Dooku was the apprentice and not the master. Why he never struck Sidious down. Amazing. So many of you attribute it to either lack of ambition or Sidious's manipulations. It is also ironic to see that half of you arguing on the manipulation front make a big deal about how he is only a half-ass manipulator and how his plans aren't that great. Lovely.

I give up. Dooku wins. Sidious is owned. The end.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
This is amazing. I've seen people go back and forth, left and right, making excuses as to why Dooku was the apprentice and not the master. Why he never struck Sidious down. Amazing. So many of you attribute it to either lack of ambition or Sidious's manipulations. It is also ironic to see that half of you arguing on the manipulation front make a big deal about how he is only a half-ass manipulator and how his plans aren't that great. Lovely.

I give up. Dooku wins. Sidious is owned. The end.

Now you know what I put up with...

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I love this system even if it has its flaws. It's based on ten being good, 1 being bad.

Dueling Skill:

Dooku- 10 He stood up to Yoda and has beaten Mace before.

Sidious- 9 Was relying on his force powers to survive the fight with Yoda


Force Mastery:

Dooku- 9 Very capable in the force. Was able to contend with Yoda for a while in force powers. Overpowerd ROTS Obi-wan in force power.

Sidious- 10 The strongest force powers in the movie probably. He constantly falls back to his supeior force powers when his saber skills begin to fail him.


Raw Power:

Dooku- 9 No Anakin Skywalker, but very powerful.

Sidious- 9 Same as Dooku.


Tactics:

Dooku- 9 Led the war against the Republic for a while(had help from Grevious)

Sidious- 10 Great tactician in the PT(not so good in OT). Manipulated everyone.


Against Single Opponent:

Dooku- 10 He kicks butt against a single opponent. Period.

Sidious- 9 Not as good as Dooku un this area. Still good at it though.


Against Multiple Opponents:

Dooku- 9 Very capable. Defeated Anakin. Lost the second time because he was betrayed.

Sidious- 10 He defeated 3 very powerful Masters extremly quickly. Good at it.


Overall(pre-corrections):

Dooku- 56

Sidious- 57


Because this system isn't perfect, I need to make some slight corrections to make it as accurate as possible.


The reason that Sidious killed those three Masters so wuickly is because he was clouding thier minds with the force. Dooku draws his power from the darkside so he would not have the same clouding effect.

Against Multiple Opponents: -2 for Sidious


Overall(corrected):

Dooku- 56

Sidious- 55

This is actually way to close to call. Anyone of them could be the victor.

It would be a draw.

Personaly I feel that Sidious would lose. He would get cocky like all the sith and meet his doom.......unless........... Dooku gets cocky..........

Well Jesus! Sidious is a damn loser, afterall. Can't win a single battle. Here's the problems I've recently discovered about Sidious that I'd like to share with you all. I thank all the other players and their EXTREME bias for proving to me.

1. His mastery of the Force is a joke. (Ironic, considering all evidence proves otherwise, but...)

2. He's probably the most pathetic duelist in the Star Wars universe. (Despite slaying three Jedi Masters, killing Mace, and standing toe-to-toe with Yoda)

3. He's easily the weakest Sith Lord in the entire franchise (Hell, just because all six movies were practically centered around the tyrannical regime he caused and his mastery of the Force, doesn't mean a damn thing)

4. Every single one of his lackeys, Maul, Grievious, Dooku, and probably Gunray can kick his ass in a fight.

5. His only noteworthy skill is his manipulation (which isn't saying much, because that sucks too. I mean, who knows how the Empire truly came about. I mean, it's unbelievable to think that Sidious is actually GOOD at anything, let alone moderate).

----

Have I enlightened you, yet?

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract


Force Mastery:

Dooku- 9 Very capable in the force. Was able to contend with Yoda for a while in force powers. Overpowerd ROTS Obi-wan in force power.

Sidious- 10 The strongest force powers in the movie probably. He constantly falls back to his supeior force powers when his saber skills begin to fail him.



-GASP- What's this? A compliment?! You mean Sidious is actually remotely TALENTED at something? No...surely you jest.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Well Jesus! Sidious is a damn loser, afterall. Can't win a single battle. Here's the problems I've recently discovered about Sidious that I'd like to share with you all. I thank all the other players and their EXTREME bias for proving to me.

1. His mastery of the Force is a joke. (Ironic, considering all evidence proves otherwise, but...)

2. He's probably the most pathetic duelist in the Star Wars universe. (Despite slaying three Jedi Masters, killing Mace, and standing toe-to-toe with Yoda)

3. He's easily the weakest Sith Lord in the entire franchise (Hell, just because all six movies were practically centered around the tyrannical regime he caused and his mastery of the Force, doesn't mean a damn thing)

4. Every single one of his lackeys, Maul, Grievious, Dooku, and probably Gunray can kick his ass in a fight.

5. His only noteworthy skill is his manipulation (which isn't saying much, because that sucks too. I mean, who knows how the Empire truly came about. I mean, it's unbelievable to think that Sidious is actually GOOD at anything, let alone moderate).

----

Have I enlightened you, yet?

*many people in this thread* Hey look guys hes agreeing with us!!! we finnaly won!!!

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
This is amazing. I've seen people go back and forth, left and right, making excuses as to why Dooku was the apprentice and not the master. Why he never struck Sidious down. Amazing. So many of you attribute it to either lack of ambition or Sidious's manipulations. It is also ironic to see that half of you arguing on the manipulation front make a big deal about how he is only a half-ass manipulator and how his plans aren't that great. Lovely.

I give up. Dooku wins. Sidious is owned. The end.

Thats good that you give up, it shows that you have no evidence whatsoever that whoever you think wins would win...

ANd that is his specialty, he is great at manipulation. Plus sidious is the biggest wussy i have ever seen also. Dooku is not better than sids and sids is not any better than dooku. Both are equal. Sidious has his vast force knowledge, and dooku has his lightsaber skills. Fuse them together and you get an equal battle. One can counter force powers, but the other can fight just as well with a lightsaber also. But IMO Dooku would take this fight to a aggresive lightsaber fight, and there sidious would hold on no longer.

Yep! They sure did! It took me a while to realize it. But gee whiz. Sidious sucks ass. Why the HELL would George make him the Star Wars main villain? I mean, c'mon, what good is he?

Yep. You're 100 percent right, Ackbar.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Well Jesus! Sidious is a damn loser, afterall. Can't win a single battle. Here's the problems I've recently discovered about Sidious that I'd like to share with you all. I thank all the other players and their EXTREME bias for proving to me.

1. His mastery of the Force is a joke. (Ironic, considering all evidence proves otherwise, but...)

2. He's probably the most pathetic duelist in the Star Wars universe. (Despite slaying three Jedi Masters, killing Mace, and standing toe-to-toe with Yoda)

3. He's easily the weakest Sith Lord in the entire franchise (Hell, just because all six movies were practically centered around the tyrannical regime he caused and his mastery of the Force, doesn't mean a damn thing)

4. Every single one of his lackeys, Maul, Grievious, Dooku, and probably Gunray can kick his ass in a fight.

5. His only noteworthy skill is his manipulation (which isn't saying much, because that sucks too. I mean, who knows how the Empire truly came about. I mean, it's unbelievable to think that Sidious is actually GOOD at anything, let alone moderate).

----

Have I enlightened you, yet?
Yes plz more, here

1.) Its no joke, he has great amnipulation skills, and has a very powerful and efective lightning attack. Wait thats it!!?

2.)He slayed 3 jedi masters. Ok, he outclassed all of them, and he

Well, wait! Actually, you're only about 89 percent right. See, I DID have proof - originally - before I found out how damn awful Sidious is. I like Count Dooku, I always did. But I have this funny characteristic that because I like a character - it doesn't mean I'll defend them always. Hell, I used to think Sidious was pretty cool. But I'd always say that he wasn't the strongest Sith Lord or the most powerful. Hell, I'd tell people who could own him and who couldn't.

If you read the thread, you'll see the foolish side of me had some pretty good proof. But of course, Sidious manipulated Dooku into not attacking him. Damn. If I didn't know any better, it's like they're saying Sidious is smart...

needed to strike them quick b4 they could attack back, yet those 2 were still conecntrating on his thoughts. ANd fisto is no match for sids, really.

3.)Shoot yourself.
4.)None of them could kick his ass, As a matter of fact, Mual is no match for him neither is GG or Nute. Dooku is though.

5.)He is damn good at manipulation, ever since he found out about anakin's existense. He started to plan for the future. And it worked perfectly, all the jedi dead, and the empire came about, he fooled everyone. A great Mastermind.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Yep! They sure did! It took me a while to realize it. But gee whiz. Sidious sucks ass. Why the HELL would George make him the Star Wars main villain? I mean, c'mon, what good is he?

suck it up, ok?
Stop being a dumb ass and accept it.
And where the hell does it say that GL made sidious the main villain?
This movie is all about anakin.

Now. Ehem, that I have regained my composure - and let loose a little immaturity and steam, perhaps I have made my point. I see so many of you insulting, slandering, and generally mocking Sidious's skills of manipulating. You so frequently insult it - making it look to be a little charlatan's game. Nothing worth mentioning. And then, you take Count Dooku - and NOW you think Sidious is actually good at manipulating people. Jesus. Pick a side and STAY on it.

Count Dooku is one hell of a duellist. And I DID give proof that shows if ANYONE is more powerful of Sidious and Dooku - it IS Sidious.

Admiral Ackbar, in movies and theatre - one has a protagonist. And one has an antagonist. Of all six movies, you discover that Anakin is the protagonist (in basic terms - the main character). Sidious aka Palpatine is the antagonist (the opposition to the protagonist). He is the major villain of the Star Wars movies, as said by George himself on the Revenge of the Sith commentary. Never did I say the movies were about Sidious or focused on him. They are about the problems he caused and those who he affected (Anakin).

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Well, wait! Actually, you're only about 89 percent right. See, I DID have proof - originally - before I found out how damn awful Sidious is. I like Count Dooku, I always did. But I have this funny characteristic that because I like a character - it doesn't mean I'll defend them always. Hell, I used to think Sidious was pretty cool. But I'd always say that he wasn't the strongest Sith Lord or the most powerful. Hell, I'd tell people who could own him and who couldn't.

If you read the thread, you'll see the foolish side of me had some pretty good proof. But of course, Sidious manipulated Dooku into not attacking him. Damn. If I didn't know any better, it's like they're saying Sidious is smart...

You are right, Somebody, no point arguing with you there. Sidious is smart, and smart as hell. He did manipulate dooku into not taking his role as master, and letting anakin live. Thas why he was known to be one of the greatest sith lords ever. He manipulated sith, and was the only one ever, really to take down the republic and bring forth the empire.

You know, I'm about up to here with the whole "Sidious/Vader faction". Everyone NOt in that subgroup stand to the left. Everyone still on the right, stand still so we can kill you on the first shot.

Well, that's me being dramatic. But seriously, guys... read my lips... NOT EVERYONE HAS TO BE IMPRESSED OR EVEN CONVINCED OF SIDIOUS' ABILITIES AS ARE YOU. That is common sense. Live it up.

And the same goes for other characters.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Now. Ehem, that I have regained my composure - and let loose a little immaturity and steam, perhaps I have made my point. I see so many of you insulting, slandering, and generally mocking Sidious's skills of manipulating. You so frequently insult it - making it look to be a little charlatan's game. Nothing worth mentioning. And then, you take Count Dooku - and NOW you think Sidious is actually good at manipulating people. Jesus. Pick a side and STAY on it.

Count Dooku is one hell of a duellist. And I DID give proof that shows if ANYONE is more powerful of Sidious and Dooku - it IS Sidious.

I did pick a side, ever since i first posted i sided with Dooku, and i never once said that Sidious was not good at manipulation, Not once.

Yet you also make Count Dooku out to be something comparable to a fool. I am not extremely biased towards Sidious. To me, Count Dooku isn't blind or completely fooled. There had to be something more than Sidious's superior intellect that kept Dooku in line. Though Palpatine has never been one for true Sith tradition, one is instinct. If the master is weak - the apprentice strikes him down. Dooku was ambitious. Maul was not, being kidnapped as an infant, where Sidious trained him to serve him unconditionally.

Dooku is an aristocrat and a clever man. He had ambitions. But clearly, he was prevented from acting on them. And you base it towards the manipulations of Sidious? Ridiculous.

Dooku did spend 7 decades as a Jedi so maybe that was the reason Dooku never tried to kill Sidious.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
You know, I'm about up to here with the whole "Sidious/Vader faction". Everyone NOt in that subgroup stand to the left. Everyone still on the right, stand still so we can kill you on the first shot.

Well, that's me being dramatic. But seriously, guys... read my lips... NOT EVERYONE HAS TO BE IMPRESSED OR EVEN CONVINCED OF SIDIOUS' ABILITIES AS ARE YOU. That is common sense. Live it up.

Yes, and if i believe one character is not as powerful as people say they, are, dont try and negotiate with me because I wont change my mind. If I believe dooku is a very powerful master or is anyone else is a very good duelist, then just agree with me or dont type anything at all.

Arbiter, if you're referring to something along the lines of a conscience, you're sadly mistaken. Count Dooku is a murderer, and he will kill. He did not fail to act against Sidious out of a lack of will to kill. Hell no. He did it either out of:

1. Fear of Sidious and his superior power.
2. True lack of ambition to act (doubtful).
3. Sidious still had knowledge of the Force that the Count lacked.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Yet you also make Count Dooku out to be something comparable to a fool. I am not extremely biased towards Sidious. To me, Count Dooku isn't blind or completely fooled. There had to be something more than Sidious's superior intellect that kept Dooku in line. Though Palpatine has never been one for true Sith tradition, one is instinct. If the master is weak - the apprentice strikes him down. Dooku was ambitious. Maul was not, being kidnapped as an infant, where Sidious trained him to serve him unconditionally.

Dooku is an aristocrat and a clever man. He had ambitions. But clearly, he was prevented from acting on them. And you base it towards the manipulations of Sidious? Ridiculous.

U underestimate Sidious. And i do base it of Sids Manipulation, why? because he has shown everyone what he can do. He fooled every damn person in the galaxy(exagerated) And you believe he cant do it to one person? Please, thats ridiculous.

Sidious..by a single white hair.

I am a Sidious fan. But I do not act in bias. I believe Count Dooku was highly intelligent and very clever. It is true Sidious had the superior intellect. I believe even Nai had the...I dunno...decency to admit that Dooku couldn't have brought about the Empire. Dooku was manipulated, true. But Sidious was the superior Sith Lord. All evidence proves TO that.

He was the superior leader because of all those reasons. He was not the best sith lord. If meaning as a lightsaber wielder or some extent of force mastery. And all evidence does prove that. Sidious is the better leader, true cuz he can do things Dooku cant. I mean can One president be the best just cuz he can beat up another leader? No!
Its because he is way smarter, and he knows how to lead a country, or in this case an empire/republic.

Admiral, I'll argue with you all tomorrow. I'll re-state my evidence and push forward once more. Nighty night.

U just do that, go look for some good sites and show me that sids is actually better than i say he is.

Well.........uh guys let's keep this friendly I don't want to get banned for starting a fight.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Now. Ehem, that I have regained my composure - and let loose a little immaturity and steam, perhaps I have made my point. I see so many of you insulting, slandering, and generally mocking Sidious's skills of manipulating. You so frequently insult it - making it look to be a little charlatan's game. Nothing worth mentioning. And then, you take Count Dooku - and NOW you think Sidious is actually good at manipulating people. Jesus. Pick a side and STAY on it.

Count Dooku is one hell of a duellist. And I DID give proof that shows if ANYONE is more powerful of Sidious and Dooku - it IS Sidious.


DO YOU NOT GET IT OR ARE YOU JUST FLAT OUT HAVE DOWN SYNDROME?


SIDIOUS IS NOT A GOD! YES, HE IS EXTREMELY POWERFUL AND MANIPULATIVE BUT HE ISN'T F*CKING INVINCIBLE!

FOR CHRIST SAKES, HE GOT BENCH PRESSED BY A GUY WHO WAS MOSTLY ARTIFICIAL!

GROW A BRAIN, SON!

Originally posted by LordSorgo
DO YOU NOT GET IT OR ARE YOU JUST FLAT OUT HAVE DOWN SYNDROME?


SIDIOUS IS NOT A GOD! YES, HE IS EXTREMELY POWERFUL AND MANIPULATIVE BUT HE ISN'T F*CKING INVINCIBLE!

FOR CHRIST SAKES, HE GOT BENCH PRESSED BY A GUY WHO WAS MOSTLY ARTIFICIAL!

GROW A BRAIN, SON!

LMFAO

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Arbiter, if you're referring to something along the lines of a conscience, you're sadly mistaken. Count Dooku is a murderer, and he will kill. He did not fail to act against Sidious out of a lack of will to kill. Hell no. He did it either out of:

1. Fear of Sidious and his superior power.
2. True lack of ambition to act (doubtful).
3. Sidious still had knowledge of the Force that the Count lacked.

Name one person he killed in direct combat.

Originally posted by LordSorgo
DO YOU NOT GET IT OR ARE YOU JUST FLAT OUT HAVE DOWN SYNDROME?


SIDIOUS IS NOT A GOD! YES, HE IS EXTREMELY POWERFUL AND MANIPULATIVE BUT HE ISN'T F*CKING INVINCIBLE!

FOR CHRIST SAKES, HE GOT BENCH PRESSED BY A GUY WHO WAS MOSTLY ARTIFICIAL!

GROW A BRAIN, SON!

Actaully that more resembles a military press which is..........so Sidious is even more of a loser so...........he sucks.............. and is falling down a large shaft....... Darth_someblody can go with him.

I'd advise you to keep those particular jokes - such as the one that involves my death - to yourself. I would hate to see you banned over a domestic situation here. If you can't beat me in an argument, keep your comments to yourself. K? Good.

The artificial remark is actually more of a reason he was defeated. Luke, Dooku, Sidious, or Maul could never beat Vader in brute strength. He was stronger than all four of them. Sidious isn't particularly big either. So considering Vader picked him up and tossed him down a shaft - and was mortally wounded in the process - doesn't say much.

Anakin couldn't pick Sidious up with one hand. And neither could anyone else. It's something only a machine (Vader) could do.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
I am a Sidious fan. But I do not act in bias. I believe Count Dooku was highly intelligent and very clever. It is true Sidious had the superior intellect. I believe even Nai had the...I dunno...decency to admit that Dooku couldn't have brought about the Empire. Dooku was manipulated, true. But Sidious was the superior Sith Lord. All evidence proves TO that.

Well...please...don't twist my words.

Dooku could (!) have brought about the Empire. After he took his title as Count of Sorenno, Dooku was one of the richest beings in the entire SW universe. Since the entire Senate was corrupt he could have "bought" himself voices and become the next chancelor or change laws as he liked.

But he was a politicial idealist and he wanted to fight corruption. So he didn't use his (financial) abilities. That was the reason for him not to kill Sidious. If he had done that (and he COULD have done that) he would have been forced to act against his own ideals to gain political influence.

Still it was Dooku who fooled all of the CSS leaders and talked them into a civil war that they were about to lose before it had even started. That was Sidious plan but it were Dookus actions and diplomatic skills.

And for the manipulation: Dooku and Sidious shared the same (political) goals to a certain degree and the only time where Sidious really fooled Dooku was when he told him to lose to Anakin and then had Anakin kill Dooku. Everything else Dooku did served his own goals just as well as it served Sidious ones.

Originally posted by Darth Windu
1) Not neccessarily. That's somewhat silly from you Revan; I'd expect better. The Master may have things to teach the Apprentice, but in Dooku's case, he was just a pawn. And I agree with Sorgo. Dooku's 83 years grant him nearly two decades more practice and training than Sidious.

2) True; but did you look at the expression on Dooku's face when he blasted Anakin and fired at Obi-Wan? He just threw his hand up and blasted away. But then, you see him concentrating more on Yoda, and look what happens. He blasts the ceiling to pieces with deflected lightning. And Yoda wasn't casual; he was trying. And Sidious' lightning may be powerful, but Dooku barely needed to struggle to reflect twice deflected lightning of his own. And Sidious fired at Mace from point blank range, a couple of feet away.

3) Dooku is a better duelist than Sidious. But how did Dooku flee like a coward? He knew he might die, but moreso, he carried the plans for the Death Star. It would be a HUGE loss to the Separatist cause if these were destroyed or lost. And did you see Dooku run away to higher ground? Escape a duel? Dooku outright challenged Yoda, in both a Force-battle And a duel. He STARTED the duel. Sidious tried to run away before it'd begun. Who's the bigger coward? And you're right, Yoda wasn't struggling as much. But he wasn't gaining any ground, either. He attacked and attacked, and Dooku just took it head on, taking some steps away to position himself well. Not to mention Dooku was right in front of Yoda the entire duel, not a couple of hundred feet away chucking half a dozen speeder-size pods at him while he ran towards him.

1: True, but only partially. Just because he older doesn't mean he could beat Sidious.

2: He reflected his own lighting he also did that so casually because he trained in the light for about 70 years. He probably learned that ability from Master Yoda when he was his Padawan.

3: I agree with you on all of it exept for one thing. Sidious tried run because he wasn't expecting Yoda and knew that he might lose that battle. Of course in the end that didn't matter because he ended up being even stonger than Yoda.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
See my statement above.



If you realy want to start reasoning like that: Dooku threw Anakin through the entire room with his force lightning in AotC and took him out of the battle for a few minutes.
Luke in ROTJ had less training and less potential compared to Anakin in AotC. Now Sidious pushed him 1 or 2 metres backwards with the kynetic energy of his force lightning and kept using it on him for more than 30 seconds. Still Luke was back on his feet 20 seconds later and carried his farther through the half death star.

Now...I don't think that Sidious lightning is FAR more powerful than Dookus one.



Now realy. Yoda would have defeated Dooku and he also would have defeated Sidious and Sidious would have go down faster in a lightsaber duel than Dooku.
Please keep in mind that Dooku had constant training with that weapon while Sidious could only have 2 opponents before RotS: Plagueis and Maul.



Sidious would use force lightning on Dooku. Dooku will deflect it. Then they will engage in a lightsaber duel and Sidious will simply go down vs Dooku.

I think ROTJ Luke would beat down AOTC Anakin. People seriously underestimate Luke. He beat Vader and has shown that he has many Force powers. You can't even say he hasn't mastered them because he has shown them just as good as AOTC Obi. Now he did have less training, but his training was far better. Yoda devoted all his time to personally training Luke and Luke alone, Obi's spirit helped as well. Anakin on other hand, didn't have an assignment of his own for 10 years so he always had Obi's help. Jedi didn't focus on training nearly as much, but on meditation and peace. Luke worked his butt off, and had incentive to get stronger. By ESB he could compete with Vader who's about 80% as strong as Sidious. Obviously Luke lost, but he still held his own for a while and got in a few good hits. In ROTJ he pwned Vader in 40 seconds. I don't consider Anakin to be as strong as 80% Sidious and therefore Luke would kick his butt IMO.

Back on topic, your only good point was that Sidious only had two opponents to face. How many did Yoda have though? Sidious still killed 3 council members in 7 seconds or so, and held his own BETTER against Yoda than Dooku. Sidious is superior to Dooku which makes sense anyway since he is the master and Dooku doesn't question Sidious.

1) I didn't say it's a guarantee; but eighteen years more practice is a hell of an advantage.

2) So what if he reflectd his own lightning? It was strong as hell if it shattered the stone ceiling. And Yoda wouldn't teach that technique to a Jedi.

3) Exactly; he knew he might lose. Dooku outright challeneged Yoda, twice. He stood his ground and, smiling, said, "I've become far more powerful than any Jedi. Even you." He shoots lightning, and does his little Force Battle routine. Then he says "It's obvious that we cannot decide a victor through ur mastery of the Force; but by our skills with a lightsaber." And what does Sidious do? Throws Yoda into a wall with lightning, gets thrown across the room himself by a retaliation, and tries to run away. Lot's of confidence there.

And obviously you didn't read anyone's take on the Yoda vs. Sidious battle other than your fellow fanboys'. Why did Sidious try to run away if he was stronger? Don't say he underestimated himself. That would be bull. Why did your Force God run freom Yoda in a straight up duel after fifteen, twenty seconds? Why did he stand a hundred metres, maybe more, from Yoda, attempting to knock the Jedi Master to his death? Because he knew that in a straight up competition of power, he would lose.

Now, I am in no way denying his power. If Yoda was uberly more powerful, he would have won for sure. But they are close, and as is Dooku in Force might. Which is why he would be able to defeat Sidious as well. Not because of superior power, but because he is almost in Sidious' class in that aspect, and his skills in dueling would aid him greatly. In that same contexy, Sidious is no slouch. But his dueling skills just can't compete with those of Dooku.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...please...don't twist my words.

Dooku could (!) have brought about the Empire. After he took his title as Count of Sorenno, Dooku was one of the richest beings in the entire SW universe. Since the entire Senate was corrupt he could have "bought" himself voices and become the next chancelor or change laws as he liked.

But he was a politicial idealist and he wanted to fight corruption. So he didn't use his (financial) abilities. That was the reason for him not to kill Sidious. If he had done that (and he COULD have done that) he would have been forced to act against his own ideals to gain political influence.

Still it was Dooku who fooled all of the CSS leaders and talked them into a civil war that they were about to lose before it had even started. That was Sidious plan but it were Dookus actions and diplomatic skills.

And for the manipulation: Dooku and Sidious shared the same (political) goals to a certain degree and the only time where Sidious really fooled Dooku was when he told him to lose to Anakin and then had Anakin kill Dooku. Everything else Dooku did served his own goals just as well as it served Sidious ones.

Hey Nai Fohl have you ever considered becoming a lawyer? Your attention to detail is near-perfect.

Yeah, Nai is gonna be a lawyer. Gonna challenge that German language reform, maybe?

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Back on topic, your only good point was that Sidious only had two opponents to face. How many did Yoda have though? Sidious still killed 3 council members in 7 seconds or so, and held his own BETTER against Yoda than Dooku. Sidious is superior to Dooku which makes sense anyway since he is the master and Dooku doesn't question Sidious.

1.)
How many opponents Yoda had. Erm...850 years = 34 generations of Jedi (including his own padawans) or more than 10 Council generations. At least we know that he had practiced a lot against Dooku and Mace and he could take Deepa Billaba, Plo Koon and Saesee Tiin at once.

2.)
Sidious performed better against Yoda than Dooku ? Really ? In their entire lightsaber fight, Sidious is completely in the defence. He is just parrying and he isn't even doing so with ease although he is in the better position. And he did run away from Yoda. Hell...

Dooku did fight Yoda on equal ground and he was able to attack Yoda serveral times and he had the confidence that he can beat Yoda (although I don't believe he could). Dooku had probably thousands of practice hours against Yoda since he was Yodas former padawan.

@darthrevan89:
Becoming a lawyer is terrible hard to do here in Germany. That requires 6 years of studying (at least) and we have many, many, many lawyers here so it's quite hard to find a job.

@Janus:
Challenge the German language reform is as useful as installing smoke detectors in hell. They don't listen to language professors, journalists, authors and so on - so they won't listen to a lawyer.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
I'd advise you to keep those particular jokes - such as the one that involves my death - to yourself. I would hate to see you banned over a domestic situation here. If you can't beat me in an argument, keep your comments to yourself. K? Good.

The artificial remark is actually more of a reason he was defeated. Luke, Dooku, Sidious, or Maul could never beat Vader in brute strength. He was stronger than all four of them. Sidious isn't particularly big either. So considering Vader picked him up and tossed him down a shaft - and was mortally wounded in the process - doesn't say much.

Anakin couldn't pick Sidious up with one hand. And neither could anyone else. It's something only a machine (Vader) could do.


I'd advise you to keep those particular jokes - such as the one that involves my death - to yourself. I would hate to see you banned over a domestic situation here. If you can't beat me in an argument, keep your comments to yourself. K? Good.

STILL? Oh my dear lord....


Why don't you keep that big mouth of yours shut more often? It's starting to make you look bad.

As for me losing the arguement, did i not just explain to you that your "Super god" got chucked over the balcony by a one handed Mech-human, or was that someone else?

Anakin couldn't pick Sidious up with one hand. And neither could anyone else. It's something only a machine (Vader) could do.

That is a pathetically meaningless excuse for the reason of Sidious' death. He was supposed to be able to use precognition, and see things before they happened, right? But i guess he didn't see Vader chucking him into a Generator, now did he?

Oh, so now Sidious weighs 500 pounds? Anyone strong enough could lift Sidious using the force and chuck him into the Generator!


Let me guess, Vader had artificial brains that Sidious couldn't read? Or was Luke clouding Sidious' Vision?


So considering Vader picked him up and tossed him down a shaft - and was mortally wounded in the process - doesn't say much.

Cool.... but i am not defending Vader, now am i? So that's good for Vader, ok?


Anyone could have killed Sidious during his rampage. Hell, Vader could have ignited his saber and offed Sidious while Sidious was going nuts frying Luke.

He didn't see it coming because he was busy frying Luke and Obi-Wan interfered with his visions through most of ROTJ.

Originally posted by DarthGenises
He didn't see it coming because he was busy frying Luke and Obi-Wan interfered with his visions through most of ROTJ.

Obi-Wan interfered with his visions? What? did you pull that out your ass or somthing?

It was either him or Yoda I mean come on how else would his visions have come out so bad. You also become much more powerful as a force ghost.

Great news ! The NASA finally found water on Mars !

/\ LOL

Originally posted by DarthGenises
He didn't see it coming because he was busy frying Luke and Obi-Wan interfered with his visions through most of ROTJ.

Show me proof, son!


SHOW ME PROOF!

Amen!

I'm not excusing Sidious's death. I am saying that even a one handed Vader is stronger (physically) than Count Dooku, Mace, or Anakin. You were trying to insinuate Sidious was killed fairly easily, which I could agree to. But Vader's one arm holds more strength than any TWO of anyone else (except Grievous).

1. Count Dooku IS Darth Sidious's apprentice. No one, myself, Nai, OR Janus know the true reason. Yet in any other instance, we all believe that the master retains that title because he is the stronger of the two. And yet in this case, you say the opposite? Count Dooku is indeed vastly under-rated. But that does not mean you need to go and over-rate him.

2. I will be the first to admit Sidious is not a Force god. I have said he would get defeated by several people, including: Yoda, NJO Luke, Revan. Though I don't take it to the extremes you all do by often using the term of "owned". Many of you all believe Sidious to be weak and often imply that he has pathetic saber skills. He may not be a Tulak Hord or Darth Revan, but that does not mean he is weak. He struck down three Jedi Masters in three seconds and held his own against Mace and Yoda.

3. Nai, once more, you're making it sound like Sidious accomplished an easy task. I would advise you to remember that (I have stated this time again) no other Sith Lord - to our knowledge - has done what Sidious has done, whether it be by brute force or deception. As I would respect Revan for being the tactical gargantuan that he is or Tulak Hord for being the greatest Sith duelist - or Marka Ragnos for having an unparalleled reign - you ought to understand that neither of these three have conquered the galaxy (or even CLOSE) to what Sidious did.

Accomplishments aside, this has nothing to do with the duel. I respect and understand that. Sidious's ability to manipulate won't help him here, will it? No, and I agree.

Dooku can reach everything on the top shelf, he wins.

Dude, you cannot mess with my supreme logic. C'mon now.

Christopher Lee is like six-foot-four.

Oh hell, I don't care anymore. May the best Sith Lord win.

Cool.

Please tell me hes not going to win because hes tall.

He is. Size matters...

He still would be crushed in this fight.

Lol I was being sarcastic. If anything, Yoda has the advantage.

Originally posted by DarthGenises
He still would be crushed in this fight.

Crushed? Bullshit, Dooku would never get owned by yoda. Damn, your pretty stupid if you think that.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
I'm not excusing Sidious's death. I am saying that even a one handed Vader is stronger (physically) than Count Dooku, Mace, or Anakin. You were trying to insinuate Sidious was killed fairly easily, which I could agree to. But Vader's one arm holds more strength than any TWO of anyone else (except Grievous).

1. Count Dooku IS Darth Sidious's apprentice. No one, myself, Nai, OR Janus know the true reason. Yet in any other instance, we all believe that the master retains that title because he is the stronger of the two. And yet in this case, you say the opposite? Count Dooku is indeed vastly under-rated. But that does not mean you need to go and over-rate him.

2. I will be the first to admit Sidious is not a Force god. I have said he would get defeated by several people, including: Yoda, NJO Luke, Revan. Though I don't take it to the extremes you all do by often using the term of "owned". Many of you all believe Sidious to be weak and often imply that he has pathetic saber skills. He may not be a Tulak Hord or Darth Revan, but that does not mean he is weak. He struck down three Jedi Masters in three seconds and held his own against Mace and Yoda.

3. Nai, once more, you're making it sound like Sidious accomplished an easy task. I would advise you to remember that (I have stated this time again) no other Sith Lord - to our knowledge - has done what Sidious has done, whether it be by brute force or deception. As I would respect Revan for being the tactical gargantuan that he is or Tulak Hord for being the greatest Sith duelist - or Marka Ragnos for having an unparalleled reign - you ought to understand that neither of these three have conquered the galaxy (or even CLOSE) to what Sidious did.

Accomplishments aside, this has nothing to do with the duel. I respect and understand that. Sidious's ability to manipulate won't help him here, will it? No, and I agree.


But Vader's one arm holds more strength than any TWO of anyone else (except Grievous).

Until you show me proof of this, it remains an opinion.


Yet in any other instance, we all believe that the master retains that title because he is the stronger of the two. And yet in this case, you say the opposite? Count Dooku is indeed vastly under-rated. But that does not mean you need to go and over-rate him.

Sidious is a persuasive political figure with alot of Force power. Dooku has almost as much force power, except he isn't as Force-powerful as Sidious is. Although Dooku's saber skills ARE better than Sidious', whether you like it or not.


Many of you all believe Sidious to be weak and often imply that he has pathetic saber skills. He may not be a Tulak Hord or Darth Revan, but that does not mean he is weak. He struck down three Jedi Masters in three seconds and held his own against Mace and Yoda.

No one said he was weak, but Dooku's lightsaber skills are just flat out plain and simple better than Sidious' are.

He killed one master by suprise... Maybe two... he owned Kit and Mace owned Sidious. The Sidious and Yoda fight was pretty fair, but Sidious used the power of the force to lean the edge to himself on that fight.

He struck down three Jedi Masters in three seconds

That's the most pathetic attempt i have seen to try to make Sidious look good. It was 9-11 seconds and Kit held out for three of those seconds.

Lord Sorgo has become Count Dooku. Viola...

Hey Janus you got any more pics of dooku or yoda I saved my original sig but wanna have a few.