Heart of the Universe vs Infinity Gauntlet vs Cosmic Cube

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armandovalles
Hawkeye w/ Heart of the Universe

VS

Captain America w/ Infinity Gauntlet

VS

Wolverine w/ Cosmic Cube


What is the most powerful item in the universe?

armandovalles
anyone?

masterbruce
describe each items briefly...that might help

K Von Doom
The CC gives you power on a global scale. The IG, over a universe. The HOTU on a multiversal scale. Doesn't matter who's wielding them.

armandovalles
so, that means HOTU is the most powerful right?

Nataku8188
Nowhere in The End does it state that HOTU gave Thanos the power over a multiverse, at least not to my memory. I'll check when I get home.

K Von Doom
It stands to reason that if Thanos can overpower the Living Tribunal (who has power over the multiverse), then Thanos would have 'multiversal' power as well.

goku-vs-superma
hawk eyew ould win of course! if he had the HOTU he would win.

Nataku8188
Originally posted by K Von Doom
It stands to reason that if Thanos can overpower the Living Tribunal (who has power over the multiverse), then Thanos would have 'multiversal' power as well.

Well, who's to say he couldn't have done that with the IG as well?

K Von Doom
Originally posted by Nataku8188
Well, who's to say he couldn't have done that with the IG as well?

Some people.

Living Tribunal = IG is debatable

HOTU > Living Tribunal is fact

Nataku8188
The Infinity gems are the power of the heart of the universe, observe.

kgkg
Originally posted by K Von Doom
Some people.

Living Tribunal = IG is debatable

HOTU > Living Tribunal is fact
LT > IG

HOTU > LT > IG > all Abstract

IG defeated all abstract even multiversal (so it can also have multiversal effects)

HOTU just made him one with all of creation

Nataku8188
Originally posted by kgkg
LT > IG

HOTU > LT > IG > all Abstract

IG defeated all abstract even multiversal (so it can also have multiversal effects)

HOTU just made him one with all of creation

Prove that LT was greater than IG

kgkg
Originally posted by Nataku8188
Prove that LT was greater than IG
Because he was the only one able to restore peace when Adam had the LT

Tribunal has death with Star bands and other multiversal thread.

Tribunal didn’t care about IG at first since he was above that.

kgkg
In ruin (or something) took all the piece of IG

Silver Surfer said I know it's within your power to stop it.

Nataku8188
Originally posted by kgkg
Because he was the only one able to restore peace when Adam had the LT

Tribunal has death with Star bands and other multiversal thread.

Tribunal didn’t care about IG at first since he was above that.

LT only cared about HOTU because Thanos sought to dominate all of creation, he didn't care about IG because, as he put it, "He fairly collected the IG and only sought to eliminate half the universe's populations" which did not require him to stop.

There is no concrete proof that IG is weaker than HOTU, infact, I believe IG is the same thing as HOTU.

Lord S
Originally posted by Nataku8188
Prove that LT was greater than IG He was able to cancel out its effect with the snap of a finger...leaving Warlock surprised and bewildered. Of course LT had to talk him into submitting to his judgement...so we may never fully know if he really was more powerful or if he was bluffing...but all signs point to LT being superior because of that one finger-snappng feat.

Now prove IG is greater than LT. Aside from Warlock's ultra-brave stance (consisting of mostly taunts) against LT, he didn't provide anything in the way of concrete evidence to suggest he was superior with the IG.

Nataku8188
Originally posted by Lord S
He was able to cancel out its effect with the snap of a finger...leaving Warlock surprised and bewildered. Of course LT had to talk him into submitting to his judgement...so we may never fully know if he really was more powerful or if he was bluffing...but all signs point to LT being superior because of that one finger-snappng feat.

Now prove IG is greater than LT. Aside from Warlock's ultra-brave stance (consisting of mostly taunts) against LT, he didn't provide anything in the way of concrete evidence to suggest he was superior with the IG.

Who's to say Warlock had as much skill with IG as Thanos, who, while in possesion of the IG came to the conclusion that he was the supreme master of reality, had the power of the heart of the universe and is the controller of unlimited power that can warp time, reality, space, and the mind. If he has unlimited power that can warp reality, how can LT do anything to him? If he controls the power of the HOTU with the IG, then he can do to LT what he did with the HOTU.

Nataku8188
The only difference between HOTU and IG is that IG is external control, like standing outside of the world and changing what you want, while HOTU is you being within it, you are the actual energy. Here;

Lord S
Originally posted by Nataku8188
Who's to say Warlock had as much skill with IG as Thanos, who, while in possesion of the IG came to the conclusion that he was the supreme master of reality, had the power of the heart of the universe and is the controller of unlimited power that can warp time, reality, space, and the mind. If he has unlimited power that can warp reality, how can LT do anything to him? If he controls the power of the HOTU with the IG, then he can do to LT what he did with the HOTU. Thanos came to that conclusion on his own...just like LT told Warlock that he represented forces that dwarf the might of the IG...either or both can be considered CIS. If you choose to believe both, then you have to believe what LT has demonstrated (cancelling out the effect of the IG)...but if it's a question of skill, then I'd choose Warlock, for the simple fact that he expelled both good and evil from his being, and operated purely on logic. That whole crap about him being mentally unfit was pure bullshit, cause Eternity was jealous of him...the Well (of Truth?) in Death's layer also said the same thing.

The only difference between HOTU and IG is that IG is external control, like standing outside of the world and changing what you want, while HOTU is you being within it, you are the actual energy.

Again, LT has stated that the forces he represents dwarf the might of the IG...the HOTU grants the wielder the powers of said forces. Cause the Heart is supposed to be the essence of 'God'.

Cosmic Cube
Cosmic Cube wins. Happy Dance

K Von Doom
Living Tribunal looks after the multiverse, which means all alternate realities as well - including What Ifs..

How much sense would it make if one reality's Infinity Gauntlet gave it power over other realities with the exact same Infinity Gauntlet (What if Silver Surfer possessed the Infinity Gauntlet? for instance), there would then be a struggle between both wielders. No. The Infinity Gauntlet of one reality gives the wielder complete power over that ONE reality - not the multiverse.

The Heart of the Universe put Thanos a step above the Living Tribunal which means he'd be able to look and tamper with every universe in the wider multiverse.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by K Von Doom
Living Tribunal looks after the multiverse, which means all alternate realities as well - including What Ifs..

How much sense would it make if one reality's Infinity Gauntlet gave it power over other realities with the exact same Infinity Gauntlet (What if Silver Surfer possessed the Infinity Gauntlet? for instance), there would then be a struggle between both wielders. No. The Infinity Gauntlet of one reality gives the wielder complete power over that ONE reality - not the multiverse.

The Heart of the Universe put Thanos a step above the Living Tribunal which means he'd be able to look and tamper with every universe in the wider multiverse.

Agreed. The Cosmic Cube is probably the most powerful artifact.

long pig
Wolverine snikts the others out of existance.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by long pig
Wolverine snikts the others out of existance.

True indeed.

Cosmic Cube
embarrasment

Lord S
Originally posted by K Von Doom
The Heart of the Universe put Thanos a step above the Living Tribunal which means he'd be able to look and tamper with every universe in the wider multiverse. But according to the latest tampering by Claremont, the mighty Phoenix Force would stick her beak in his ass, cause she is now the Ultimate Supreme Power! rolleyes1

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Lord S
But according to the latest tampering by Claremont, the mighty Phoenix Force would stick her beak in his ass, cause she is now the Ultimate Supreme Power! rolleyes1

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Nataku8188
Originally posted by K Von Doom
Living Tribunal looks after the multiverse, which means all alternate realities as well - including What Ifs..

How much sense would it make if one reality's Infinity Gauntlet gave it power over other realities with the exact same Infinity Gauntlet (What if Silver Surfer possessed the Infinity Gauntlet? for instance), there would then be a struggle between both wielders. No. The Infinity Gauntlet of one reality gives the wielder complete power over that ONE reality - not the multiverse.

The Heart of the Universe put Thanos a step above the Living Tribunal which means he'd be able to look and tamper with every universe in the wider multiverse.

This is true, but according to Thanos, who, while empowered with the HOTU, claimed that IG was, according to the scan, mastery of everything, but only on an external level, then should this not be considered the same power as the HOTU?

Look through 'The End', at no point does Thanos discuss multiverses, and reread IG, at no point does THANOS conflict with LT. Thanos showed mastery over all gems in Silver Surfer V3 #44. Nowhere does he say he has no control of the multiverse, in fact, he states that he is a supreme being.

So, it can easily be debated that HOTU is equally effective as IG, seeing as how IG is unlimited energy and the ability to manipulate it, which is what Thanos describes the HOTU as. If I had the HOTU and tried to change your reality, could you not, as possessor of the IG, change it to your will? On levels of power alone, both of these items are limitless, and the most concrete fact we can surmise is that HOTU is all realities instead of just one, like the IG. BUT this alone contridicts the name of the power, as it is the HEART of the UNIVERSE< which Thanos states the IG to give him the power of.

Personally, I believe that IG gives an external access to the HOTU, or equal power, and Warlock's knowledge of the IG was insufficient to overturn the LT.

Beyonder
Originally posted by Nataku8188
This is true, but according to Thanos, who, while empowered with the HOTU, claimed that IG was, according to the scan, mastery of everything, but only on an external level, then should this not be considered the same power as the HOTU?

No. It's not actually. He first talked about the cosmic cube which gave him "some divinity." Then moved on to the IG which gave him control over mind, space, reality, etc. but "it still was external control." It's a progression in power. First the CC, then the IG, now the HOTU.

Also, Thanos was created by Starlin. These sagas are Starlin's. Starlin's upping Thanos' powers and feats all the time. In IG saga, Thanos w/ was still below LT. In The End, Thanos w/ HOTU absorbed LT and all without much effort.

IG<HOTU.



When was on Thanos' level with the IG. Heck, he snapped his finger and sent an angry Eternity away. He even fast fowarded time. He even knew that he would eventually give into LT's demand. Both he and LT knew of the future outcomes.

Lord S
Originally posted by Nataku8188
Look through 'The End', at no point does Thanos discuss multiverses, and reread IG, at no point does THANOS conflict with LT. Thanos showed mastery over all gems in Silver Surfer V3 #44. Nowhere does he say he has no control of the multiverse, in fact, he states that he is a supreme being. No but some things go without saying...it's understood that LT is the guardian of the multiverse, and Thanos becoming his master, usurps his position as well. Just because he didn't take action against other realities doesn't mean didn't have the power to do so. That is of course until a certain annoying little bird rides in the Claremont train to obstruct the Mad Titan. Normally I'd say he'd cage her like a canary and bitchslap her to destruction, but then GS would be all over my ass with his new-found propaganda...but I digress.

Personally, I believe that IG gives an external access to the HOTU, or equal power, and Warlock's knowledge of the IG was insufficient to overturn the LT.

I'm going to have to disagree with that...cause Warlock was more in control of his faculties than was Thanos. To err the way he did (subconsciously or whatever) proved that he wasn't as fit as Warlock to possess the gems, and he couldn't possibly know more about them cause Warlock was more focused.

---

This may sound corny, but in my mind I've always compared cosmic hierarchy to message forum administration. Pretend that this 'VS' forum is 616...and all the other forums that make up KMC are other realities. Tron would be your Eternity, while Paola would be like LT (assuming there are no other admins/mods with multi-forum powers, aside from the owner). Someone hacking Tron's account and taking over his role would be the IG story arc, while somebody hacking the owner's (whoever he/she is) would possess the 'Heart', and control everyone.

Lord S
Oh yeah, PS, I forgot to mention this...

About 'external control'...I interpreted that as referring to the fact that he always had to be in possession of the actual glove to be in control of the reality. If you remember, after defeating Eternity, Thanos left his body and assumed his role in the universe...LT even stated earlier that Thanos only seeks to replace Eternity's position as supreme being of the reality. Because he forgot or didn't care about his lifeless physical body, Nebula was able to grab the gauntlet...while the 'Heart' was more like an energy field which he just jumped into, not something that could be duplicated, cause he wiped out the Celestial Order, (I think).

That's just the way I interpreted it...I could be wrong.

K Von Doom
Originally posted by Nataku8188
Look through 'The End', at no point does Thanos discuss multiverses, and reread IG, at no point does THANOS conflict with LT. Thanos showed mastery over all gems in Silver Surfer V3 #44. Nowhere does he say he has no control of the multiverse, in fact, he states that he is a supreme being.

With the IG Thanos became supreme being of one reality. He didn't become THE supreme being of ALL realities because... how about the, at least, two other realities with Infinity Gauntlet wielders?

As Lord S mentioned, the discussion of multiverses isn't necessary, it's implied since Thanos with the HOTU is more powerful than the LT.

Nataku8188
So far, I've seen no concrete evidence, except personal opinions, as to why the IG wouldn't be the power of the HOTU. Or that Thanos had less control over the IG than Warlock.

From everything I've read in the IG mini, the Silver Surfer issues where Thanos with IG makes appearances, and Marvel: The End, when in possession of the IG Thanos was stated to have-

-Unlimited power
-Ability to warp Mind, Space, Time, and Reality
-Become 'more powerful than ANY force in the universe'
-Become the 'Supreme being in this universe and reality'
-The 'Heart of the Universe' (See the scan back on page 1 or 2)

Now, when he first saw the HOTU, he said it was, "Nothing more than unlimited energy", so, it stands to reason the ONLY difference between the HOTU and the IG is that the HOTU is part of you, as you are part of it, and the HOTU effects multiple realities.

It's like comparing a Comic Forums moderator to a Comic Versus forums moderator. They have all the same powers, but the Comics Forums moderator can apply his powers to all of the forums that lie inside of his.

Now, as for the LT, LT was stated to be a 'cosmic judge of all realities' in the IG mini-series, and yet, he was easily absorbed by the HOTU power Thanos weilded. If the IG is as powerful as the HOTU, is it not reasonable that someone with the correct mastery of it could easily absorb LT as well? If LT can judge all of the forums, like the HOTU has control over, but is less powerful than the controller of the Versus forum, could not the controller of the Versus forum simply ignore him and change whatever he attempted to?

whirlysplat
Originally posted by Lord S
But according to the latest tampering by Claremont, the mighty Phoenix Force would stick her beak in his ass, cause she is now the Ultimate Supreme Power! rolleyes1

as comic book guy would say "Best Post Ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" laughing

Keep the faithbig grin

Stay Lord S rock

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by whirlysplat
as comic book guy would say "Best Post Ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" laughing

Keep the faithbig grin

Stay Lord S rock

lol... it's true though. She might be supreme now, but sooner or later, she'll get jobbed.

Nataku8188
Yea, Claremont needs to stop popping viagra before he writes his stories.

whirlysplat
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
lol... it's true though. She might be supreme now, but sooner or later, she'll get jobbed.

It is true, Phoenix I don't think is supreme though CC, as someone else said on here they reckoned CC (Claremont) not yousmile had lost it with all his upgrades and I kind of agree. I loved the concept of Phoenix up to the end of Xmen 137 after that it got silly imo. smile

GalacticStorm
Fire and life incarnate now and forever!!!!!!! Happy Dance

K Von Doom
Originally posted by Nataku8188
So far, I've seen no concrete evidence, except personal opinions, as to why the IG wouldn't be the power of the HOTU. Or that Thanos had less control over the IG than Warlock.

From everything I've read in the IG mini, the Silver Surfer issues where Thanos with IG makes appearances, and Marvel: The End, when in possession of the IG Thanos was stated to have-

-Unlimited power
-Ability to warp Mind, Space, Time, and Reality
-Become 'more powerful than ANY force in the universe'
-Become the 'Supreme being in this universe and reality'
-The 'Heart of the Universe' (See the scan back on page 1 or 2)

Now, when he first saw the HOTU, he said it was, "Nothing more than unlimited energy", so, it stands to reason the ONLY difference between the HOTU and the IG is that the HOTU is part of you, as you are part of it, and the HOTU effects multiple realities.

It's like comparing a Comic Forums moderator to a Comic Versus forums moderator. They have all the same powers, but the Comics Forums moderator can apply his powers to all of the forums that lie inside of his.

Now, as for the LT, LT was stated to be a 'cosmic judge of all realities' in the IG mini-series, and yet, he was easily absorbed by the HOTU power Thanos weilded. If the IG is as powerful as the HOTU, is it not reasonable that someone with the correct mastery of it could easily absorb LT as well? If LT can judge all of the forums, like the HOTU has control over, but is less powerful than the controller of the Versus forum, could not the controller of the Versus forum simply ignore him and change whatever he attempted to?

Agreement that Thanos with the IG became supreme being of THIS universe and reality, as you've stated. Not every universe.

And the difference between the IG and the HOTU is that, the latter affects multiple realities.

Your last paragraph is a bit odd. I agree with you that IF the Infinity Gauntlet was as powerful as the Heart of the Universe, the wielder would be able to absorb the Living Tribunal with little trouble. Problem is - that's a big IF.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Fire and life incarnate now and forever!!!!!!! Happy Dance

And that should be it. The Phoenix being the embodiment of all life in the multiverse, past, present, and future, is cool. That would still put her near the top of the hierarchy. Phoenix being the embodiment of everything? sick

Nataku8188
Originally posted by K Von Doom
Your last paragraph is a bit odd. I agree with you that IF the Infinity Gauntlet was as powerful as the Heart of the Universe, the wielder would be able to absorb the Living Tribunal with little trouble. Problem is - that's a big IF.

What proof do we have that it's not? It's not like once you have it you are supreme, look at how pathetic Nebula was it compared to Thanos. All the HOTU is is limitless energy, the IG has that too. So, I don't see how they differ in terms of power, the only difference seems in terms of application of said power.

K Von Doom
With the Heart of the Universe, Thanos was easily able to overcome the Living Tribunal.

With the Infinity Gauntlet:
- Thanos was momentarily drained by Quasar
- Thanos was equalled by Maelstrom, in an alternate reality (still part of the Multiverse)
- The Living Tribunal didn't interfere with Thanos because he only sought to replace Eternity - Thanos wasn't a threat to the wider multiverse.
- Thanos was still affected by the powers of Order/Chaos & Love/Hate
- The LT didnt intervene when Nebula obtained the Gauntlet because the Living Tribunal sees the future (as agreed to by Warlock during his trial) and Nebula's eventual defeat.
- Warlock was "challenged" by the Living Tribunal (Would Thanos with the Heart of the Universe be challenged by the LT?)

There are more instances that imply the Gauntlet's inferiority to the Heart.

What proof do we have that the Infinity Gauntlet IS equal to the Heart of the Universe?

Saying that the Infinity Gauntlet is equal to the Heart of the Universe means you're essentially saying that each reality's original 'Infinite Being' is greater than the cosmic judge of all realities.

kgkg
Originally posted by K Von Doom
With the Heart of the Universe, Thanos was easily able to overcome the Living Tribunal.

With the Infinity Gauntlet:
- Thanos was momentarily drained by Quasar
- Thanos was equalled by Maelstrom, in an alternate reality (still part of the Multiverse)
- The Living Tribunal didn't interfere with Thanos because he only sought to replace Eternity - Thanos wasn't a threat to the wider multiverse.
- Thanos was still affected by the powers of Order/Chaos & Love/Hate
- The LT didnt intervene when Nebula obtained the Gauntlet because the Living Tribunal sees the future (as agreed to by Warlock during his trial) and Nebula's eventual defeat.
- Warlock was "challenged" by the Living Tribunal (Would Thanos with the Heart of the Universe be challenged by the LT?)

IG did have a multiversal effect

Lord S
Originally posted by kgkg
IG did have a multiversal effect What was it?

Nataku8188
Originally posted by K Von Doom
With the Heart of the Universe, Thanos was easily able to overcome the Living Tribunal.

With the Infinity Gauntlet:
- Thanos was momentarily drained by Quasar
- Thanos was equalled by Maelstrom, in an alternate reality (still part of the Multiverse)
- The Living Tribunal didn't interfere with Thanos because he only sought to replace Eternity - Thanos wasn't a threat to the wider multiverse.
- Thanos was still affected by the powers of Order/Chaos & Love/Hate
- The LT didnt intervene when Nebula obtained the Gauntlet because the Living Tribunal sees the future (as agreed to by Warlock during his trial) and Nebula's eventual defeat.
- Warlock was "challenged" by the Living Tribunal (Would Thanos with the Heart of the Universe be challenged by the LT?)

There are more instances that imply the Gauntlet's inferiority to the Heart.

What proof do we have that the Infinity Gauntlet IS equal to the Heart of the Universe?

Saying that the Infinity Gauntlet is equal to the Heart of the Universe means you're essentially saying that each reality's original 'Infinite Being' is greater than the cosmic judge of all realities.

All you've shown is THANOS was inferior to HOTU with Infinity Gauntlet. Like I said, both are just limitless energy, how are they not equal?

I said that the IG is equal in power to the HOTU, because both have limitless power.

Cosmic Cube
Nataku is stupid. He won't understand.

kgkg
Originally posted by Lord S
What was it?
He was able to trap chaos and order.

This would have a multiversal effect.

When LT went against the star bands, the effect effect on chaos , and order had an effect on the whole multiverse.

Order and chaos also exist beyond Eternity.

In the nexus of all reality is like there realm ........

Nataku8188
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Nataku is stupid. He won't understand.

It hurts because it's true.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Nataku8188
It hurts because it's true.

I know... sad

Nataku8188
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
I know... sad

Hold me?

Lord S
Originally posted by kgkg
He was able to trap chaos and order.

This would have a multiversal effect.

When LT went against the star bands, the effect effect on chaos , and order had an effect on the whole multiverse.

Order and chaos also exist beyond Eternity.

In the nexus of all reality is like there realm ........ I believe he only affected Chaos and Order in the 616 reality...as the supreme ruler of the reality, he could shut them out and assume their abstract roles.

kgkg
Originally posted by Lord S
I believe he only affected Chaos and Order in the 616 reality...as the supreme ruler of the reality, he could shut them out and assume their abstract roles.
That’s the point?

Scene when is there deferent Chaos and Order.

Anytime they show Order, chaos they have been in the space beyond Eternity( multiverse space lol)

Anyway

If you effect Order, Chaos the effect will reach the multiverse , just like when beyonder killed death it was having a multiversal effect.

And you don't need have power over the multiverse to affect it

K Von Doom
I would have to disagree with the Order and Chaos thing.

Korvac reality: Chaos grew to an immense size, Chaos decreased. Didn't have any effects anywhere else.

kgkg
Originally posted by K Von Doom
I would have to disagree with the Order and Chaos thing.

Korvac reality: Chaos grew to an immense size, Chaos decreased. Didn't have any effects anywhere else.
maybe it takes time

Did you read the Quasar Comics?

Where Lt goes against Starbands.

And in the nexus of Reality, both chaos, and order are together.

They are not universal

When MM ( cube was battleing Beyonder)

Again you see Chaos , and Order in a multiversal realm beyond Eternity

They have even said it them self that They are not part of eternity

K Von Doom
Originally posted by kgkg
maybe it takes time


The Korvac Saga... and the alternate reality that spawned from it... happened back in the late 80s... so if it's not having any effects now, it's taking a really long time

kgkg
Originally posted by K Von Doom
The Korvac Saga... and the alternate reality that spawned from it... happened back in the late 80s... so if it's not having any effects now, it's taking a really long time
Maybe they forgot

Marvel gets mixed up with universe and multiverse often

So far

- Nexus of reality
- Is a balance of the multiverse ( quasar)
- They exist beyond Eternity
Etc

Richrf
Maelstrom was immune to the infinity gauntlet. Maybe HOTU is better in this way?

skizo
Skizo destroys IG, HOTU, and CC with ease.....after all theyre just paper

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by skizo
Skizo destroys IG, HOTU, and CC with ease.....after all theyre just paper

And what are you?

skizo
Someone with hands

Beyonder
Originally posted by Nataku8188
All you've shown is THANOS was inferior to HOTU with Infinity Gauntlet. Like I said, both are just limitless energy, how are they not equal?

I said that the IG is equal in power to the HOTU, because both have limitless power.

Thanos w/ IG:

- wiped out half universe population with thought.
- defeated Galactus, Stranger, Celestials, Chaos, Order, etc.
- then beat up Eternity

Adam Warock w/ IG:

- fast fowarded time with a thought
- separated himself into three beings
- wrecked Eternity, Galactus, Stranger, Celestials, Chaos, Order, etc. with the wave of the IG - WITH THE EXCEPTION OF LT.

Both Thanos and Warlock are comparable in feats with the IG. Neither is the better. If there was an edge in power, it be Warlock. Why? Warlock was the weilder of the Soul gem long before the other gems showed up. He used the Soul gem to take control of the other five. He was able to hide from the IG and mount an assault to take the IG.

Anyways, Warlock wrecked everyone with the IG during the trial...except LT. LT wasn't even affected by Warlock's outburst of rage on the idea of putting him on trial. With the snap of his finger, LT restored order and stopped Warlock's attack on everyone in the court, which shocked Adam.

Heck, it was LT ruled against the gems working in unison. Magus had to set up events to get LT to reverse his verdict and allow the gems to work in unison. LT > IG.

Thanos with the HOTU played with LT and then absorbed him. LT had no power over Thanos.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Beyonder
Thanos w/ IG:

- wiped out half universe population with thought.
- defeated Galactus, Stranger, Celestials, Chaos, Order, etc.
- then beat up Eternity

Adam Warock w/ IG:

- fast fowarded time with a thought
- separated himself into three beings
- wrecked Eternity, Galactus, Stranger, Celestials, Chaos, Order, etc. with the wave of the IG - WITH THE EXCEPTION OF LT.

Both Thanos and Warlock are comparable in feats with the IG. Neither is the better. If there was an edge in power, it be Warlock. Why? Warlock was the weilder of the Soul gem long before the other gems showed up. He used the Soul gem to take control of the other five. He was able to hide from the IG and mount an assault to take the IG.

Anyways, Warlock wrecked everyone with the IG during the trial...except LT. LT wasn't even affected the Warlock's outburst of rage on the idea of putting him on trial. With the snap of his finger, LT restored order and stopped Warlock's attack, which shocked Adam.

Heck, it was LT ruled against the gems working in unison. Magus had to set up events to get LT to reverse his verdict and allow the gems to work in unison. LT > IG.

Thanos with the HOTU played with LT and then absorbed him. LT had no power over Thanos.

Nataku is stupid. He didn't understand anything you just posted.

TheRebel
Originally posted by K Von Doom
Some people.

Living Tribunal = IG is debatable

HOTU > Living Tribunal is fact
Correct me if im wrong did not the Living Tribunal turn off the IG with a thought???

TheRebel
Originally posted by Beyonder
Thanos w/ IG:

- wiped out half universe population with thought.
- defeated Galactus, Stranger, Celestials, Chaos, Order, etc.
- then beat up Eternity

Adam Warock w/ IG:

- fast fowarded time with a thought
- separated himself into three beings
- wrecked Eternity, Galactus, Stranger, Celestials, Chaos, Order, etc. with the wave of the IG - WITH THE EXCEPTION OF LT.

Both Thanos and Warlock are comparable in feats with the IG. Neither is the better. If there was an edge in power, it be Warlock. Why? Warlock was the weilder of the Soul gem long before the other gems showed up. He used the Soul gem to take control of the other five. He was able to hide from the IG and mount an assault to take the IG.

Anyways, Warlock wrecked everyone with the IG during the trial...except LT. LT wasn't even affected by Warlock's outburst of rage on the idea of putting him on trial. With the snap of his finger, LT restored order and stopped Warlock's attack on everyone in the court, which shocked Adam.

Heck, it was LT ruled against the gems working in unison. Magus had to set up events to get LT to reverse his verdict and allow the gems to work in unison. LT > IG.

Thanos with the HOTU played with LT and then absorbed him. LT had no power over Thanos.
True both had huge feats, but note the LT ONLY got involved when Adam Warlock had the IG, not thanos can you give a reason for that?

TheRebel
Originally posted by Beyonder
Thanos w/ IG:

- wiped out half universe population with thought.
- defeated Galactus, Stranger, Celestials, Chaos, Order, etc.
- then beat up Eternity

Adam Warock w/ IG:

- fast fowarded time with a thought
- separated himself into three beings
- wrecked Eternity, Galactus, Stranger, Celestials, Chaos, Order, etc. with the wave of the IG - WITH THE EXCEPTION OF LT.

Both Thanos and Warlock are comparable in feats with the IG. Neither is the better. If there was an edge in power, it be Warlock. Why? Warlock was the weilder of the Soul gem long before the other gems showed up. He used the Soul gem to take control of the other five. He was able to hide from the IG and mount an assault to take the IG.

Anyways, Warlock wrecked everyone with the IG during the trial...except LT. LT wasn't even affected by Warlock's outburst of rage on the idea of putting him on trial. With the snap of his finger, LT restored order and stopped Warlock's attack on everyone in the court, which shocked Adam.

Heck, it was LT ruled against the gems working in unison. Magus had to set up events to get LT to reverse his verdict and allow the gems to work in unison. LT > IG.

Thanos with the HOTU played with LT and then absorbed him. LT had no power over Thanos.

Richrf
It was shown there are many things the infinity gauntlet couldn't do.

It was shown that HOTU couldn't do one thing.

HOTU wins

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
And that should be it. The Phoenix being the embodiment of all life in the multiverse, past, present, and future, is cool. That would still put her near the top of the hierarchy. Phoenix being the embodiment of everything? sick

What do you mean of everything?

Richrf
Phoenix full potential beats HOTU .

Nataku8188
Originally posted by Beyonder
Thanos w/ IG:

- wiped out half universe population with thought.
- defeated Galactus, Stranger, Celestials, Chaos, Order, etc.
- then beat up Eternity

Adam Warock w/ IG:

- fast fowarded time with a thought
- separated himself into three beings
- wrecked Eternity, Galactus, Stranger, Celestials, Chaos, Order, etc. with the wave of the IG - WITH THE EXCEPTION OF LT.

Both Thanos and Warlock are comparable in feats with the IG. Neither is the better. If there was an edge in power, it be Warlock. Why? Warlock was the weilder of the Soul gem long before the other gems showed up. He used the Soul gem to take control of the other five. He was able to hide from the IG and mount an assault to take the IG.

Anyways, Warlock wrecked everyone with the IG during the trial...except LT. LT wasn't even affected by Warlock's outburst of rage on the idea of putting him on trial. With the snap of his finger, LT restored order and stopped Warlock's attack on everyone in the court, which shocked Adam.

Heck, it was LT ruled against the gems working in unison. Magus had to set up events to get LT to reverse his verdict and allow the gems to work in unison. LT > IG.

Thanos with the HOTU played with LT and then absorbed him. LT had no power over Thanos.

Not to be picky, but Thanos also warped through time and seperated himself into seperate beings with the IG in SS 44.

The thing is, IG has shown to have more applications based on the user's skill, correct?

Now, if both the HOTU and the IG are based on the principle of unlimited energy, how is the HOTU more powerful? Not more versatile, we've gone over that. But really, if the people wielding the IG were complete masters of it, would they not have limitless power? This is all I'm arguing. I know Warlock got owned by LT, and Thanos most likely would've, but if they had complete understanding and mastery of the gauntlet, could they not do like Thanos did with the HOTU?

Cosmic, yer just too stupid to understand WHAT I'm trying to figure out here :-p

Richrf
Bah, in comics, everything and everybody has 'limitless', 'infinite' power.

It's a complete copout to say that because X can't do it, it's because he lacks skill.

Heck if you want to argue limitless , infinity power, why don't you argue that with infinity power you can do anything even without skill. After all who needs skill if you have INFINITE power smile

Still I agree, sometimes the the comics will mention the owners of IG are adjusting to the power etc. But otherwise ....

The only thing we can see is IG has a lot more limitations than HOTU, so IG is less powerful. Talking about skill, is just distracting the issue.

Nataku8188
Originally posted by Richrf
Bah, in comics, everything and everybody has 'limitless', 'infinite' power.

It's a complete copout to say that because X can't do it, it's because he lacks skill.

Heck if you want to argue limitless , infinity power, why don't you argue that with infinity power you can do anything even without skill. After all who needs skill if you have INFINITE power smile

Still I agree, sometimes the the comics will mention the owners of IG are adjusting to the power etc. But otherwise ....

The only thing we can see is IG has a lot more limitations than HOTU, so IG is less powerful. Talking about skill, is just distracting the issue.

I've seen Thanos take the gems from the elders, then use them much more effectively. Thus, I'm sure skill is a huge part in the use of the infinity gauntler.

Richrf
It's not skill. It's knowing what they are. The Elders didn't know.

Besides I'm not sure if Thantos uses each one indidivually better than the Elders.

He took them from the elders yes, but because

1) He tricked them (for the champion)
2) They didn't know what they had
3) By the time he faced the Grandmaster he has so many Gems compared to merely one.

I believe that the Gems can be used more effectively yes, but that is due to imagination to decide what to do. But anything the holder of the IG wants he can do , skill makes no difference. The only problem is some users are less imaginative.

LT's ruling against IG was a simple case. Anyone would use the power of IG to defy LT's ruling. Wishing is all it took. Skill is not a factor.

Nataku8188
Originally posted by Richrf
It's not skill. It's knowing what they are. The Elders didn't know.

Besides I'm not sure if Thantos uses each one indidivually better than the Elders.

Have you read Thano's Quest?

Richrf
Yes

Ethereal
Can somebody explain to me, what are star bands?

supremthor
LT = The Living Tribunal is above all other forces in the Universe. The Marvel Universe is really a multiverse, a limitless connection of alternate universes connected to the main one. He trancends every single force in every single one, exists on every dimension at the same time in each as well as actually existing in every single universe in the multiverse at the same time. Tthat is he has no "alternate" selves like all other beings in the multiverse, there is only one. He is the only being that "actually" can destroy a universe if he judges it threatens the balance of the others.

Also he has stated his power comes from "on high" and also stated that he represented forces that dwarf the might of the Infinity Gauntlet, which he backed up by being totally uneffected by its power when it destroyed Eternity, Lord Chaos and Master Order away as if they where insects, not to mention he had the power to cancel the Gauntlets effects out with a single snap of the finger and ordered that they never work together again in this universe.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by supremthor
LT = The Living Tribunal is above all other forces in the Universe. The Marvel Universe is really a multiverse, a limitless connection of alternate universes connected to the main one. He trancends every single force in every single one, exists on every dimension at the same time in each as well as actually existing in every single universe in the multiverse at the same time. Tthat is he has no "alternate" selves like all other beings in the multiverse, there is only one. He is the only being that "actually" can destroy a universe if he judges it threatens the balance of the others.

Also he has stated his power comes from "on high" and also stated that he represented forces that dwarf the might of the Infinity Gauntlet, which he backed up by being totally uneffected by its power when it destroyed Eternity, Lord Chaos and Master Order away as if they where insects, not to mention he had the power to cancel the Gauntlets effects out with a single snap of the finger and ordered that they never work together again in this universe.

True he's the most powerful force in the multiverse for the majority of the time except when the phoenix of the white crown is manifested into creation and/or someone is tapping into HOTU

Richrf
ER. HOTU absorbed him? So is HOTU one of the kind too? Like LT?

Yet the way The End was shown, it seems (arguable) that HOTU gave only the power of only one universe.

It was stated the difference between the 2 was that HOTU made the holder one with the universe, while IG was merely external control.

But it didn't mention if it gave him power over multiuniverse... sigh..

But yet Thanos defeated LT who is supposed to be beyond any single universe, his purpose is in fact to judge universes and to close them down if they endanger the multiunieverse!

Speculation

Thanos speculated that he was actually tricked into gaining the HOTU for some purpose. So maybe, LT was ordered to lose or caused to lose by the almighty.

LT has pretended to lose before in the past after all.

Nah dumb theory.

Whirlysplatt
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
True he's the most powerful force in the multiverse for the majority of the time except when the phoenix of the white crown is manifested into creation and/or someone is tapping into HOTU
Blah Blah Blah Blah, His the most powerful force in the Universe.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Blah Blah Blah Blah, His the most powerful force in the Universe.

Dont hate the knowledgeable sad

Learn from them. smile big grin

Whirlysplatt
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dont hate the knowledgeable sad

Learn from them. smile big grin

TOAA is the most powerful beingsmile

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
TOAA is the most powerful beingsmile

Well thats a given roll eyes (sarcastic)

Whirlysplatt
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Well thats a given roll eyes (sarcastic)

He is more powerful than the Phoenix of the white crown smile

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
He is more powerful than the Phoenix of the white crown smile

The Crown is of God so thats obvious.

Whirlysplatt
Livin Trib with TOAA permission beats Phoenix doing anything smile Including HOTU

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Livin Trib with TOAA permission beats Phoenix doing anything smile Including HOTU

Living Tribunal isnt Spectre im afraid good attempt old chap. smile

If TOAA wanted Jubilee to beat Galactus then she could

Whirlysplatt
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Living Tribunal isnt Spectre im afraid good attempt old chap. smile

If TOAA wanted Jubilee to beat Galactus then she could


Living Trib is almost exactly the Spectre, he acts on behalf of TOAA, thats his job with permission he wastes Phoenix and most of the time he has permission because thats his job smile

Whirlysplatt
Jubille can beat Galactus probably due to Claremonts senility smile

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Living Trib is almost exactly the Spectre, he acts on behalf of TOAA, thats his job with permission he wastes Phoenix and most of the time he has permission because thats his job smile


Your assumming LT's relationship with TOAA is the same as Spectres is with the Presence. Assumptions like that based on nothing carry no weight here im afraid. I think the late hours affected your brain. Have a rest old chap.

Whirlysplatt
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Your assumming LT's relationship with TOAA is the same as Spectres is with the Presence. Assumptions like that based on nothing carry no weight here im afraid. I think the late hours affected your brain. Have a rest old chap.

I assume nothing he is TOAA number two smile

everyone knows that smile

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
I assume nothing he is TOAA number two smile

everyone knows that smile

He is/was just like everyone knows in the future he gets surpassed and then replaced by the newly evolved phoenixes just before Jean ends all that is. smile

Whirlysplatt
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
He is/was just like everyone knows in the future he gets surpassed and then replaced by the newly evolved phoenixes just before Jean ends all that is. smile

in one possible timeline smile

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
in one possible timeline smile

Nope its the end of all universes im afraid. Which is why you find humanity in all other alternate universes. Merely a means to an end. They evolve into Phoenixes and all the abstracts and LT go bye bye. smile

Whirlysplatt
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope its the end of all universes im afraid. Which is why you find humanity in all other alternate universes. Merely a means to an end. They evolve into Phoenixes and all the abstracts and LT go bye bye. smile

Till the next idea for the end of the universe at Marvel, if thats the case then all the superheroes can give up saving the universe there as they know the Phoenixes are around at the end in the far future. A pointless multiversesmile

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Till the next idea for the end of the universe at Marvel, if thats the case then all the superheroes can give up saving the universe there as they know the Phoenixes are around at the end in the far future. A pointless multiversesmile



sad smile big grin laughing

Whirlysplatt
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
sad smile big grin laughing

laughing

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