Exar Kun vs. Yoda & ROTS Darth Vader

Red Nemesis

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Actually, when you take into consideration that Kun can conceivably just spam his energy blasts and we have no way to know if Yoda or Anakin can attempt to block them, this makes more sense. Anakin especially would have to work harder than Yoda to avoid those attacks. I wish I could disagree, but I've actually argued this exact position before. I can't switch sides now.

Originally posted by Janus Marius

Now if you removed the amulet, the match goes more in Yoda's favor.

Does that help any?

Yes. Yes it does.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Limited third person narrator, anybody?
Omniscient third person narrator, anybody?

See how easy that was? What makes you think that the narrator was limited?
Originally posted by Borbarad

Can Kun take this fight? He will definetly go down in a lightsaber duel. In an all out fight he might simply blast his opponents away and the same in a force fight. Although I doubt that he will survive either, going by the fact that his second opponent could still launch a force attack against him, while he blasts the first - and Yoda might even be able to dodge the beams.

Agreed about the lightsaber duel, and even the force fight. I just don't see Yoda losing all out.

Janus Marius

He could conceivably kill both with the amulet in one way. He was quite mobile using it the first time, not stationary, and he could easily throw Jedi Knights around like ragdolls using the Force anyways.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Janus Marius
He could conceivably kill both with the amulet in one way. He was quite mobile using it the first time, not stationary, and he could easily throw Jedi Knights around like ragdolls using the Force anyways.

By jedi knights, do you mean Crado? Sylvar? Anybody worth a damn or anybody on Yoda or Vader's level? Not even close.

Enyalus

Originally posted by Borbarad
Limited third person narrator, anybody?

Not only that, but the entire novel is filled with horrible hyperbole which, taken at face value, contradicts other things said throughout the novel.

Example: Obi-Wan being called the ultimate Jedi. Then Yoda being the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known. Because, one would imagine that the ultimate Jedi would hold that title...

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Omniscient third person narrator, anybody?

See how easy that was? What makes you think that the narrator was limited?

I don't like disagreeing with you - but on this one you aren't correct. The entire novel, or at least 75% of it, takes place in the limited third person. Hence why Stover is always saying things like, "This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker:" et cetera.

Enyalus

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
By jedi knights, do you mean Crado? Sylvar? Anybody worth a damn or anybody on Yoda or Vader's level? Not even close.

He kills Jedi Master Odan-Urr with a gesture, after surviving Urr's Sever Force attack...and, if I'm not mistaken, it was he who invented that attack, and so its potency should have been pretty high.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Enyalus
He kills Jedi Master Odan-Urr with a gesture, after surviving Urr's Sever Force attack...and, if I'm not mistaken, it was he who invented that attack, and so its potency should have been pretty high.

Odan Urr was over 1,000 years old and while he may have been the most knowledgeable force user ever, there's nothing to suggest he was powerful. Granted Exar Kun staved off the wall of light on him which would make him powerful, whether it was him or with the help of the amulet. However, when you make a statement like "throws jedi knights around like rag dolls", you need to substantiate this statement seeing as how the likes of Yoda and Vader are superior to Odan Urr, Crado, Sylvar, etc.

Enyalus

He was on the Jedi Council, responsible for rewriting the Jedi Code, and headmaster of the Jedi Library. There's nothing to suggest that he wasn't powerful.

But, I do agree with the second half of your statement, regarding backing up the "throws jedi knights around like rag dolls" thing.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Enyalus
He was on the Jedi Council, responsible for rewriting the Jedi Code, and headmaster of the Jedi Library. There's nothing to suggest that he wasn't powerful.

But, I do agree with the second half of your statement, regarding backing up the "throws jedi knights around like rag dolls" thing.

He was also possibly the oldest jedi alive and the most knowledgeable. He hasn't hinted at being powerful in the least bit, just knowledgeable in the force.

Red Nemesis

Originally posted by Enyalus
Not only that, but the entire novel is filled with horrible hyperbole which, taken at face value, contradicts other things said throughout the novel.

Example: Obi-Wan being called the ultimate Jedi. Then Yoda being the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known. Because, one would imagine that the ultimate Jedi would hold that title...

That doesn't follow at all. Obi-Wan was the ideal Jedi in terms of conduct- he followed the Jedi code to the letter, and epitomized the ideals of the Order. Because a Jedi is not primarily a warrior, being a good Jedi =/= being a good fighter.

That particular case isn't really a good example. Not to shut you down- because some of the descriptions bordered on the ridiculous. What do you think about Dooku being borderline autistic?

Originally posted by Enyalus

I don't like disagreeing with you - but on this one you aren't correct. The entire novel, or at least 75% of it, takes place in the limited third person. Hence why Stover is always saying things like, "This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker:" et cetera.
But isn't limited 3rd person when the narrator has access to only one of the character's thoughts? In the novel, it speaks through Dooku, Kenobi, Padme (I think) Yoda and Sidious's viewpoints. At times it makes assertions from outside any viewpoint.

Janus Marius

DS:

I have seen quite a few people on these very forums indicate Sidious and Yoda being extremely knowledgeable in the Force and old, and by virtue of this they are incredible foes.

Yet somehow when Odan-Urr is the same, he's not even "hinted at being ... powerful"?

http://i37.tinypic.com/2cwkdg6.jpg

Here we see him note that he's adept at an extremely difficult Jedi skill, one which is clearly not even shown nor used in the PT era. His access to the Sith holocron and its secrets no doubt should be able to prepare him for the tricks of the Sith, as did his experience in the Hyperspace War and the subsequent mopping up of the Sith planets. His brief training of the technique allowed Nomi to pretty much make Ulic, himself a considerable Force prodigy, into a stooge. By being the foremost expert in this ability, it would stand to reason that it alone would make him dangerous, not counting any other tricks he might have up his sleeve.

Being able to sever someone's Force connection unwillingly and so suddenly is insanely powerful. Granted, he's not out sabering things in the streets, but his level of Force knowledge and capability puts him on a Force level of perhaps Yoda or Mace, perhaps higher at least in verified knowledge. And yet Exar Kun not only resisted the sever Force ability with ease, he then casually killed Odan-Urr without even drawing his blade. That's a nod to his own considerable Force abilities.

Working with that, it's not inconceivable that Exar Kun could manhandle Anakin Skywalker using his powers while spamming blasts at Yoda. It's not like he has to remain stationary while they bum rush him.

Mizukage Yoda

What will prevent the good grand master from reflecting these blasts. Odan Durr was powerful in his prime, during the Great Sith War. Yoda has been show to redirect Sidious' lightning, with his bare hands. I put ROTS Sidous above Exar. Yoda alone is a match for Exar, put in Skywalker and he's toast. After all Anakin manhandles "The temples greatest student" in ROTS.

Janus Marius

http://i33.tinypic.com/2iucjzl.jpg

Don't come in here with that crap. Take it outside.

Red Nemesis

I only disagree with this part:
Originally posted by Janus Marius

Here we see him note that he's adept at an extremely difficult Jedi skill, one which is clearly not even shown nor used in the PT era. His access to the Sith holocron and its secrets no doubt should be able to prepare him for the tricks of the Sith, as did his experience in the Hyperspace War and the subsequent mopping up of the Sith planets. His brief training of the technique allowed Nomi to pretty much make Ulic, himself a considerable Force prodigy, into a stooge. By being the foremost expert in this ability, it would stand to reason that it alone would make him dangerous, not counting any other tricks he might have up his sleeve.
He says- And I quote:
"Locked within its recesses, accessible only to a Dark Lord of the Sith are secrets..."
This gives the impression that he was not able to learn from the Holocron. The gatekeeper might not have let him, the Holocron might not be powerable(I just precedented that word) with Light side Force energy, or he just didn't want the knowledge, thinking it dangerous. It is pretty obvious that he didn't learn its secrets.

That's really the only problem I saw with your post. If he could do this in combat then I see no reason not to put him on a level similar to Mace, or at least Qui-Gon, due to his shortcomings in saber technique.

Oh and the Christ punch is either hilarious, if you are intentionally blaspheming, or pitiful, if you aren't being purposefully Ironic.

Janus Marius

You're correct, I misread that quote when I was hosting the pic. I withdraw that particular point.

And the Christ Punch is hilarious.

Red Nemesis

Originally posted by Janus_Marius
And the Christ Punch is hilarious.

I did laugh. Agreed.

Darth Sexy

Janus, my point is that it's very unlikely Exar Kun could do what you claim he could someone like Yoda, who is clearly his superior in the force department, and then Vader, who could be his equal or his superior. You cannot claim that he throws around jedi knights like ragdolls because we can also look at the quality of those Jedi Knights. The lone exception is Odan Urr and again, despite him being very knowledgeable in the force, he hasn't shown much in the way of applying that knowledge to combat situations in which we would deem him very powerful, such as Yoda or Vader.

Faunus

The difference between Odan and Yoda is that the latter has immense raw power to go along with his almost nine-hundred years in the Temple. Odan was just a scholar, and was never noted in any way to have exceptional potential in the Force, just obscene amounts of knowledge.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Faunus
The difference between Odan and Yoda is that the latter has immense raw power to go along with his almost nine-hundred years in the Temple. Odan was just a scholar, and was never noted in any way to have exceptional potential in the Force, just obscene amounts of knowledge.

That's my point faunus. In terms of force knowledge, it's possible Odan Urr had the most in the star wars mythos. However, he didn't have the potential nor the feats to back that up.

Janus Marius

DS:

Perhaps you're missing something. If Exar Kun easily shrugs off a powerful and difficult sever Force ability from the guy who excelled at them and in turn kills that Jedi Master without doing much more than raising his hand, what is Anakin or Yoda going to do to him while avoiding those casual amulet blasts?

Seriously, consider that. When you come up with a decent answer for that other than "OMFG Odan-urr sux" I might take you seriously.

He has thrown around Jedi like ragdolls quite easily, and he's dominated top tier Jedi masters with casual ease. I know you're going to blow up and go "omfg but they weren't leik teh PT guyz!" because that's how you've always acted, but the point being Exar Kun dominated Force users in his area and once he became a Sith was undefeated. Even as a shade, he dominated Kyp and choked half of Luke's academy after being mad and isolated for thousands of years.

There's no instance of Exar Kun being defeated using the Force and every example of him being unequalled during his timeframe. Even if you want to sit there and tell me the TotJ era jedi masters who were centuries old were completely worthless and only held in high esteem for their useless and non-applied Force knowledge, I'll just ignore you. There's nothing to indicate that the Jedi were weaker simply because they don't have as many showings as Yoda or as much grandiose narration surrounding them as Yoda or Mace. Clearly, they've only been depicted in one form of limited media, not several movies, games, books, comics, etc. Limited exposure is going to make them seem less impressive because they haven't been fighting much of a war during the timeframe in which Exar Kun takes power. Odan-Urr was stalked and killed in his own study without any time to prepare, for example.

I'm not sure how excessive knowledge of the Force and being renowned in arts that specifically were used in fighting the Sith somehow equate to Odan-Urr being some sort of worthless sage. Yoda himself did not fight Sith until the very end of his life and spent most of his years in contemplation, teaching, and intensive study much like Odan-Urr. He was also physically small and weak, and yet it was his understanding of the Force which allowed him to overcome his enemies, not his overwhelming level of power alone.

Faunus:

I'm not sure where you're drawing this from. Yoda is considered exceptional among the PT Jedi era for his understanding and command of the Force, but a good deal of that comes from his wisdom and practice. Odan-Urr was not some pencil pusher who sat at a desk all day and acquired worthless second-hand knowledge. He notes he was busy cleaning up after the war with Sadow and learned his Force Sever ability combating them. The very fact that he pretty much made up the ability while fighting the Sith is incredible. Yoda doesn't display this level of Force manipulation, even if he should conceivably have knowledge of it. Yoda does not simply try to sever the Force from Sidious, or from Dooku or a host of other Dark Siders he could have done it on.

Just because Yoda has literally dozens of depictions showing him doing all manners of Force feats does not necessarily make him vastly superior to Odan-Urr. Even if he does have more Force potential (Which is a debatable point when you consider you can't measure Odan-Urr's potential at all), this isn't a blank check for him to piss all over Exar Kun. Kun himself was clearly leagues above any of the Jedi Masters in the TotJ era.

So to bring this loop back to a close, Kun >>>>> Odan-Urr. Since Odan-Urr is one of the best TotJ era Jedi along with Vodo, this means Kun is clearly a Force beast at this point, as if his showings weren't enough. The idea that Yoda >>>> all other Jedi masters by virtue of his heavier exposure is flawed.

Faunus

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
That's my point faunus. In terms of force knowledge, it's possible Odan Urr had the most in the star wars mythos. However, he didn't have the potential nor the feats to back that up. I was agreeing with you. I think he could certainly kick the asses of the vast majority of Force-sensitives in the mythos on account of his knowledge of arcane techniques alone, but many upper-tier beings are probably powerful enough to overpower him.

That said, we've seen Obi-Wan Kenobi stalemate someone of vastly superior power in a Force-contest solely because he had a greater control over his abilities. Obi-Wan was never noted to have truly exceptional potential, so I'd imagine that the thousand year-old Odan would have even greater control over all of his powers. While this wouldn't matter much against people like Dooku or Yoda - and I suppose the rare individuals like Exar Kun and Bane who combine raw power with impressive learning rates and dedication to acquiring knowledge - many Force-users might find their raw power advantage nullified by Odan's far greater control and mastery.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Janus Marius

Perhaps you're missing something. If Exar Kun easily shrugs off a powerful and difficult sever Force ability from the guy who excelled at them and in turn kills that Jedi Master without doing much more than raising his hand, what is Anakin or Yoda going to do to him while avoiding those casual amulet blasts?

Seriously, consider that. When you come up with a decent answer for that other than "OMFG Odan-urr sux" I might take you seriously.
I don't care if you take me seriously bro and I never said Odan Urr sucks. I just said there is NOTHING in the star wars mythos that points to him being exceptional with the force. You don't know why Kun shrugged off the wall of light technique. Either he was more powerful in the force than Odan Urr to the point where he COULD shrug it off, or he had amulet help. At any rate, facing someone who is MORE powerful in the force than he is, is going to give him trouble at the very least. Furthermore, we've seen Yoda dodge 3 jedi with lightsabers without even having one, so excuse me if I feel that he wouldn't have that much trouble dodging Kuns amulet blasts.

I'm glad you know how I've always acted. I guess it's better than "The kotor jedi are better because it was a more martial time!" Don't bring that weak shit in here because it didn't work before and it doesn't work now. Nobody was denying Kun's status in the top tier, but you'll have to show me the top tier jedi masters he's dominated. If I say that PT jedi are better, it's because they are, and he has dominated jedi that are far inferior to the PT Jedi. Don't get mad at me for stating facts. The question is could Kun face someone like Yoda and Vader? I highly doubt Kun would win a fight with Yoda alone, so adding another powerhouse like Vader might be overkill. Then again, I don't think Vader is mobile enough to block those amulet blasts.

You can "ignore" me all you'd like Janus. Not to mention, telling me what I'm going to say kinda makes you look ridiculous. I'd start trying to be civilized if I were you, unless you want to be ridiculed again in which case you run back to your dying EOD and complain how everyone else sucks. I never claimed anybody was worthless, I just stated that Kun has not fought anyone of Yoda's or Vader's caliber, because he hasn't. There is EVERYTHING to indicate that the Jedi were weaker because they haven't shown anything on the level of the pt jedi. THe whole "well they don't get enough screentime" nonsense doesn't fly. It is up to YOU to prove that they're on the level of the PT Jedi because GL and logic states otherwise. Don't play this pseudo intellectual game because you'll lose. Again.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Janus Marius
DS:

I have seen quite a few people on these very forums indicate Sidious and Yoda being extremely knowledgeable in the Force and old, and by virtue of this they are incredible foes.

Yet somehow when Odan-Urr is the same, he's not even "hinted at being ... powerful"?

http://i37.tinypic.com/2cwkdg6.jpg

Here we see him note that he's adept at an extremely difficult Jedi skill, one which is clearly not even shown nor used in the PT era.
Said technique is still active then. Tholme uses it on himself. Sever Force?
The Tedryn holocron, which recorded Odan's secrets was held by the Jedi of the PT era. Which would include Yoda.
Source: Jedi vs. Sith. The bit of the section of Sever Force reveals Odan's knowledge on that technique specifically was passed down

Odan specifically noted the thing was refusing to give up its secrets to him.
I really hate to use the words 'useless dolt,' but that sums up Odan pretty well, and by the PT, Jedi Council members as Yoda had an entire wall full of Sith Holocrons to study and prepare from.
And 'experience' in the Hyperspace war? The 'experience' of standing around, looking sadly at people getting cut to ribbons thanks to his own incompetence? The 'mopping up?' Of who? Massassi and lower ranked Sith considering all the Dark Lords were killed or fled? The 'mopping up' consisted or orbital bombardment of the Sith into extinction. I'm finding it a bit hard to believe Odan had much combat experience at all when he pretty much immediately skipped off to Ossus to found the library

When Ulic is notably not defending himself or even noticing Nomi is there when he's busy sobbing hysterically over his brother's corpse in realization of what he's done?
Nomi is awesome, but it's not that impressive a feat if the opponent isn't even defending himself.

And as we know, from several sources, it can be resisted.
Odan's power should be called into utter question. He is nowhere near as strong as Yoda, or Palpatine, or Exar, or Luke, or Galen Marek, or Bane, or plenty of other people. Why will his ability suddenly work on them when they're defending themselves? I sincerely doubt Kun had any knowledge of the technique and it didn't cost him much.
Odan has the deficiency of being:
A. A joke of a combatant. He was known for wisdom, not power or ability and in battle, his grand contributions were doing a grand total of nothing during the battle of Kirrek and encouraging the enemy to fight harder at the start of Golden Age of the Sith.
B. Far weaker than most of the greats who, as we can see from Exar, would probably tool Odan's rear end in the Force before he could defend himself or attack

At what point did he sever anyone of significant ability 'unwillingly?' The only times I can think of people doing this are:
Nomi on Ulic. Who is not resisting at all.
Kyle Katarn on Jerec according to Wizards on the Coast's article
Darth Caedus on Ben Skywalker
The one time we see Odan try it's a failure

On their level? On what evidence? Odan devoted apparently no time to power or combat ability.

Yes, it is. Now, why is he going to be able to do the same on a far more able, powerful, dangerous and experienced opponent? Someone who has studied how to combat the Sith arts? Someone who had access to Odan's wisdom from the Tedryn Holocron? Someone with such a massive wealth of knowledge, power and combat experience backed up by one of the most powerful young Jedi ever?

Oh, please, this is blatant bias.
For starters, where is the evidence he can use these powers anywhere near simultaneously? Where is the evidence he can somehow effortlessly multitask against two experienced enemies?
Why won't Yoda be dodging the beams and attacking back at Exar with Anakin?

Yeah, because Yoda is going to lack any hint of strategy, capability or intelligence all of a sudden, and Exar is enough of a god to effortlessly divide himself up here.

This is silly, Janus.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Janus Marius
DS:

Perhaps you're missing something. If Exar Kun easily shrugs off a powerful and difficult sever Force ability from the guy who excelled at them and in turn kills that Jedi Master without doing much more than raising his hand, what is Anakin or Yoda going to do to him while avoiding those casual amulet blasts?
Oh, God, the 'amulet blasts' argument.

It's not like Sith artifacts can be disabled via the Force, or Exar having to divide attention, or Yoda knowing things like Morichro, Malacia, and given he had the Tedryn Holocron, Force sever. Or just leap up and throw up a force shield and then launch a force wave when Exar is too busy focusing on blasting everything like a deranged lunatic to bother with defense.

Unless they are remotely comparable to yoda and anakin in power and ability, irrelevant.

And as the Jedi in question here are more powerful and skilled than those Jedi, irrelevant. Yoda has dominated a Dark Lord of the Sith with relative ease, who was also a top tier Jedi master before growing even stronger

You neglect to mention here that what he did with Kyp was play off his fears. There was no force domination there, there was seducing him to the Dark Side.
You also neglect to mention that Streen was able to stop that choking.

This has bearing on a more powerful era, how? Darth Bane was also undefeated and unequalled during his timeframe. Same might go for Revan.
My point here is a simple: What bearing does this have on anything?

Oh, so the 'they just haven't been in enough' argument? No, that doesn't fly. Odan appeared in three six issue miniseries, that's more than enough time to show something. Kun was in two and was practically the star villain of two novels, with a ton of writing in third party material.
I'm afraid the 'grandiose narration' is still part of the continuity and just because the PT have had more time to show off doesn't mean they're less powerful. If we have to decide between the guys with more backing or the guys with less, where we do we go logically, now?

That 'excessive' knowledge line applies to Yoda. Oh, and is there any evidence of Odan fighting Sith now? As I pointed out, he did nothing during the Kirrek battle. The only Dark Lords left had either fled or died after Naga's purge and escape, leaving practically undefended Sith worlds to be genocided.
Odan headed to Ossus after the war. There is no evidence he ever left it since and devoted himself to learning and knowledge.

as Yoda happily points out to Whie Malreaux, Yoda's fought and killed more than Whie can imagine. Yoda's early years are shrouded in mystery, but he did a lot of traveling, learning and there was quite a few battling with dark siders along the way. It's implied that he might well have battled some Sith along the way and unlike Odan, when the chips were down in a fight, Yoda proved himself.

And? When Yoda opened himself to the Force, he was a nearly unstoppable fighter and has demonstrated incredible levels of speed and strength

and this is contradicted by other sources. He says he became 'adept' with it during the war. And? Odan's contribution to the war was standing around on Kirrek letting people depending on him be torn to bits. Teta and the Republic proceeded to burn the Sith planets to ash afterwards.
Yoda lived an active life. He kept himself sharp and studied hard in the Force and kept his combat skills up to date.

Yeah, except there's no evidence he 'made up' the ability and I question his definition of Sith Lord, knowing the Sith Lords were fled or dead by the time Odan would have entered combat.
If he can use sever force on a Sith Acolyte? Good for him.

Unlike that mongrel idiot Odan, Yoda might actually put some stock in how severing people from the force is a horrible thing not to be done lightly. Not only that, notice how Vodo and Nomi don't use it on Ulic permanently? Or join together for an attack on Exar with it?
By that same standard, when would Yoda have found need or necessity to do so? He needed to kill Palpatine, his equal or near-equal in the Force who would conceivably be able to resist it. And he's there to KILL Palpatine. he wants to save Dooku, not destroy him.The only other times I recall Yoda facing Dark Siders are the Bpfasshi group who he kills and Ventress who he handily defeats without even igniting his saber.

Also, if Force Sever is in such wide appeal during the TOTJ era, why did nobody do it during the third great Schism? Might've helped save an entire star system before the Dark Jedi destroyed it. The idea of Odan just going "Lol Sever Force" at every opportunity is kind of undercut given that the one single time he faced an opponent of great power, his attempt failed and he was instantly killed.

Ridiculous assertion. There is no evidence Odan is more powerful and far more evidence on Yoda's side. Plus, Yoda's power in regards to other Jedi is directly stated in certain places.

So what? Unless this has bearing on Yoda, it is irrelevant. Compare and contrast Yoda's abilities to Kun's alones and see who comes out on top. Kun can beat Yoda's inferiors. This isn't a strong case for him at all.

Yeah, we know Kun is something, but guess what? So is Yoda. Yoda's own feats are enough to place him up alongside the best and that includes Exar. His own demonstrated feats are enough to make a case for him on his own against Kun and it's a good case.
That Yoda>>>>the other Jedi based on available evidence and demonstrated ability plus heavy textual backing on Yoda's behalf? Not so flawed

Red Nemesis

Feel free to not spamquote page distorting comic book panels any time you want. Both LS and DS would do well to take note: THIS RUINED MY SCREEN! I'm sorry, but I really hate having to scroll sideways to read a sentence. Janus, next time just link to the image you want. Plz.

Was it you or Gideon that argued that Increased Mastery = Greater speed? Odan's great knowledge base (he lived long enough) would have to give him some sort of advantage in combat. To say otherwise is to ignore the trends of the rest of the saga.

The rest of your post is virtually flawless.

Lightsnake

Not disagreeing that Odan would have some power to devote to amp himself up, but his lack of experience in doing so or devotion of any kind to combat? It kind of hurts.
there's a good gap between being able to do it and do it effectively

Red Nemesis

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Not disagreeing that Odan would have some power to devote to amp himself up, but his lack of experience in doing so or devotion of any kind to combat? It kind of hurts.
there's a good gap between being able to do it and do it effectively

Hasn't he been shown against any high level opponents? I can't imagine that Kun's main enemy was very weak. I don't read comics, so just how bad was he? I'm only interested in saber feats, so don't throw the 'Battle Meditation' debacle at me. I don't think that you've listed any direct combat feats yet.

Lightsnake

'Main enemy?' He met Odan once. Odan is seen with a saber only once in GAOTS and the one person he fights there is a random, low level thug he bisects at the waist.

Otherwise, at Kirrek, the only other battle he's in, he tries and fails to help with his BM and then a soldier screams at him to pick up his saber and help.
Odan's response? Look at him very sadly. The guy is immediately killed by a Massassi.
I like to imagine his name was Trevor and he was ready to retire with his loving wife and attend his daughter's wedding the next day.

As for combat...that's really it that we see until Kun.

Red Nemesis

I thought that he was the main opponent that Kun had to face. I was wrong. I retract all statements made about Odan prior to this one:

He sucked.

This can be taken out of context, so I'll qualify that. As a direct combatant, he was not particularly competent. He appears to have been a suitable teacher, as he taught Nomi Sunrider (right?) Force techniques rather quickly, if the above comic page is any indication. I would hesitate to say that his teaching ability puts him on par with Yoda or Sidious, both of whom were both able teachers and gifted combatants.

Enyalus

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I thought that he was the main opponent that Kun had to face. I was wrong. I retract all statements made about Odan prior to this one:

He sucked.

This can be taken out of context, so I'll qualify that. As a direct combatant, he was not particularly competent. He appears to have been a suitable teacher, as he taught Nomi Sunrider (right?) Force techniques rather quickly, if the above comic page is any indication. I would hesitate to say that his teaching ability puts him on par with Yoda or Sidious, both of whom were both able teachers and gifted combatants.

I'll agree to the fact that saber-wise, Odan-Urr sucked. I do think he was pretty powerful in the Force, given his immense knowledge.

Faunus

Did two people really have to quote the entire post + scan?

Think, people. And LS, you're about to start the "I HATE TOTJ" rant again. Spare me my eyes, please.

Red Nemesis

To quote myself:

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Faunus
Did two people really have to quote the entire post + scan?

Think, people. And LS, you're about to start the "I HATE TOTJ" rant again. Spare me my eyes, please.

I'm keeping it to Odan, don't worry. Given circumstance, that's fair.

Janus Marius

I've decided to skip tdtd's arguments, since it's more loudmouthed arrogance than any founding in reason. Faunus' post was very good and made me put the idea of knowledge and actual power better into perspective. But the Troll's forum bashing and ad hominems are tiresome.

Lightsnake:

My stance is this: Odan-Urr's technique is supposively difficult and used only in times of dire need.

Why did Mace or Yoda not use this technique? It's not like it has prep time or anything. Odan-Urr did it instantly, as did Nomi. So I'm led to believe that either Yoda was a buffoon who did not use a great tool within his power (Which is not inconceivable) or he simply wasn't able to do it. That's a reasonable stance, don't you agree?

I withdrew this statement when Red Nemesis corrected me. And Odan-Urr is a bit old and stupid in some ways. Genius, but lacking common sense.

Re-read the scan, LS. Odan-Urr talks about the days following the battle, and how he had to learn the ability. He never once uses it in the Fall of the Sith Empire depicting him as a newbie. Indeed, the actual "war" in the comic is concluded with a simple space battle in which Naga Sadow flees using his explosion as a decoy. That space battle was concluded in a single day, and Empress Teta, who led the attack, recalled her ships. Odan-Urr was subsequently allowed to go back to the ships left in orbit and glean them for artifacts.

His words here, however, imply heavily that there were following battles, mopping up, what have you. Either that, or you're asserting that he learned the Sever Force ability while standing next to his dying master's side, which is ridiculous. You cannot become "adept" at what you're doing if you aren't doing it.

Defending himself isn't even a defensible argument, LS. Exar Kun couldn't have known Odan-Urr was going to immediately try and sever his connection to the Force, and yet he still resisted it. It's probably an innate balance of the power of the user versus the power of the target. Exar Kun's Force powers excelled Odan-Urr's by many times, rendering even his adeptness and his wisdom in the Force useless. That speaks levels of his power. Considering Anakin Skywalker can't overcome Obi-Wan Kenobi who himself was chucked around like a ragdoll, I don't see Annie being much help to Yoda.

Are you making the assumption I'm arguing Exar Kun is going to use the sever Force ability? You were speed reading this again, weren't you? I never made any such claim. Odan-Urr's level of power as a Jedi master was called into question because supposively Exar Kun lacked the amount of Force potential and power to manhandle Anakin Skywalker. Considering Odan-Urr is the closest Yoda-like figure in the era, and he was easily dominated by Exar Kun using only the Force, and then Exar Kun went on to use his lightsaber to manhandle who was perhaps the best fighter of that era, it stands to reason that Exar Kun is head and shoulders above most Force users, including Anakin Skywalker who's never showed the same level of power and control, nor the same Sith knowledge.

So to close the open loop here, Exar Kun >>> Anakin Skywalker by a good bit Force-wise, and while I won't stoop to argue he'd wreck Yoda using the Force, his Sith Amulets even the field for him there. He has a very good chance of using those two abilities combined to destroy any cohesion between Skywalker and Yoda and kill one or both outright.

Wow, you couldn't have cast him in a worse light, could you? Exar could clearly tool the shit out of Odan, that's never in question. My entire argument is that Exar Kun's Force dominance of knowledgeable Jedi Masters is a good indicator that he could "toss Anakin around like a ragdoll". Dooku could do that, and I don't see Dooku killing Odan-Urr with a simple gesture shortly after resisting his sever Force ability which he created and was admittedly quite good at, do you?

Again, reading comprehension is your friend, LS. I'm starting to think you just sped-read through this and fired off a hasty, combative response.

Odan-Urr tells Nomi in detail about how he learned this ability fighting the ancient Sith. They don't just roll over and expose their bellies and ask for their abilities to be shut off from them, do they? No, they don't. It's quite clear in the implication that Odan-urr honed this ability on nonwilling enemies, ergo, it is an ability designed to strip the force unwillingly.

Is that clear enough for you, or are you going to speed-read over that too?

We have no verifiable instance of Odan-Urr "devoting time to power or combat ability" obviously. He suffers from a lack of exposure which apparently in KMCland equals to disgust and being deficient, but I'll reply to you all the same.

Odan-Urr sat on top of a Jedi stronghold of Force knowledge and information, much of which forms the foundation of modern Force users' knowledge. It stands to reason that by being the foremost Force scholar of his time, he learned the intricacies of the Force in ways few could, especially given his advanced age. Yoda himself is one of the only other Jedi Masters to have his fingers in this amount of knowledge and have the time to fully explore it.

I don't see how this isn't at all clear to you. Time to study + intense knowledge of the Force + creating abilities in battle with Sith = substantial power and knowledge in the Force. This is a pretty clear example. If someone spends a thousand years studying medicine and practices in his spare time and another spends sixty years studying and practices a bit more, is the latter the better doctor by virtue of more practice and significantly less study? Even removing the element of "natural ability", this seems quite obvious.

Janus Marius

So you're countering my argument with... a blanket argument that lacks substantiation? How does that work?

1. So Yoda is better than Odan-urr by virtue of what exactly? More exposure? Vague, unsupported assertions? Work with me here.

2. Odan-Urr and the Jedi Masters of Exar Kun's age were ignorant to Sith Lords, but Yoda is somehow the master of fighting them? How does this stack up?

3. So someone who draws on the recorded wisdom of the original is somehow better than the original by virtue of what? Having more exposure? Hyperbole and blanket arguments? Vague, unsupported statements which need to be substantiated? Did I miss anything, LS? Are you actually arguing here, or just shouting out your opinion while deriding mine?

4. This last one is so ridiculous it could be framed and admired by idiots everywhere. Substantiate all of this or stuff it, LS. I'll be honest - it's been awhile since I've seen you argue this blindly, and it's painful to watch. Prove to me why I had respect for you as a debator and don't start acting like tdtd. I don't cave to assertions. Follow Faunus' example and piece something together which I will respect, even if I don't remain convinced. Fair enough?

No, it makes sense. If you read the comics again and slower this time you'd see that Exar Kun, while having no prior experience with the item, started moving and blasting the Sith wyrm with ease. He was not stationary, and the maneuver did not slow him down. Likewise, using the Force to throw or push someone is not negated by firing off pure hatred from your arm with the aid of a Sith artifact. If it was, Exar Kun wouldn't be able to use the Force to fuel his motions, would he?

So really, your "blah blah that's biased!" complaint amounts to nothing. It's perfectly reasonable to assume Kun can use the Force to push or pull Skywalker to the side while spamming those blasts at Yoda. Considering Yoda was initially caught off guard by a short burst of lightning which was inferior to the Sith amulet blasts from someone he knew was a Sith Lord like Kun, I don't really want to be the one to say "Yoda will simply avoid those and coordinate with Skywalker, who for sure will avoid them too!". I'd hate to sound stupid.

No, not really. But the burden of proof is on the other side to indicate Yoda will either recognize the blasts and avoid them or that he would have a means to deal with them. Even if he did start hopping around like a toad, it's not like Kun's going to sit still and be snuck up on while he has to reload or anything. He can backpedal or leap about and spam those blasts. Even if he doesn't bother to use the Force on Anakin, he could conceivably fire a blast at Yoda who has to evade, then one at Skywalker who has to evade, and keep this up until one or both mess up. It's his ace in the hole. And really, it's not like Anakin Skywalker is Yoda's greatest teammate or anything.

Oh God, LS being obtuse again.

1. Where is it shown that a Force-artifact like Kun's can be "disabled via the Force"? Use canon sources please. No bullshit.

2. Dividing attention? It's assumed they're attacking him from the front and he has the initial opportunity to shoot them with something Skywalker's never seen and Yoda's never personally dealt with, even if we assume he has knowledge of Kun walking into the fight.

3. Show me a good argument of why any of those Force abilities will work on a person who dominated every single Force user in his era. Why? Because Yoda will use them and he's the "omfg greatest jedi evar according to Stover's book!" or he has more exposure than a comic book character which you clearly dispise for his "long ponytail"?

4. What Force Shield has canonically been shown to prevent these attacks?

5. Since when is Kun so stupid that he'd just sit there and spam blasts which weren't having any affect, assuming that's the case?

Here's one - stop making vague unsupported assertions, LS.

My stance: Exar Kun's shown dominating the premier Force users of his era - esteemed masters who fought ancient Sith, battle masters, jedi knights, etc. He is undefeated and shows amazing Force ability.

Your stance: None of them stack up to Yoda or Anakin. Proof? **** you, thats my proof.

Please. Stop embarassing yourself with this senseless rhetoric. You've been hanging around the wrong crowd for too long, LS.

Good god, I'm not even going to touch on that assertion. I'll just let it slide by as a lack of sleep, or a small case of the stupids. I can't believe you're talking like this LS.

1. Kyp was dominated. It's not the end-all of points, but it is a point. He lured Kyp first, dominated him second.

2. His Force spirit was 4000 years old and still contained enough remnant power to do even that. It's a feat we can't claim Obi-Wan, Anakin or even Yoda's force ghosts accomplished that.

The context is important, LS. You claim Yoda > others by virtue of his standing within his own timeframe. You believe it makes sense. Yoda most certainly is better than other Force users in his era, including Skywalker by a far margin. But then when I say Exar Kun > others of his timeframe and by extension he should be considerable enough to fight Yoda and Skywalker, especially with his amulet to offset the numerical balance, you say "Balls, that means nothing. Here's some random drivel about Bane and Revan to undermine your point". I don't quite follow, LS. Are you debating here or starting a pissing contest?

Janus Marius

That's the crux of your agrument though, isn't it? If I say Odan-Urr is a top level Force master on the levels of Yoda and Mace you immediately go "nuh uh!" Why? Because Odan-urr hasn't done the sheer amount of combat and force feats they have. Why? Because of lack of exposure. Odan-urr was a supporting character in a comic book series which is limited media, which came out before the PT-era was solidified in movie form. Of course Mace and Yoda have great showings - they're central characters in the entire movies series, plus Clone Wars novels, cartoons, games, RPG books, etc.

You know how much new information has come out about Odan-Urr since the comics were released? None. That's how much.

You know how much new information has come out about Yoda, Mace, and Anakin in the same timeframe? Shitloads. The entire basis of how you judge these characters has been effected by the massive exposure their getting and the verbal fellatio some authors choose to lap on there.

So really, if you want to argue to me "Odan-urr should have explicitly higher showings in his limited exposure or else he sucks worse than Yoda", you should concede at the very least that he has "high showings" among his own timeframe and media exposure. Among the comic books of his era, he was Yoda's equal as he was the eldest, wisest, and implicitly strongest in the Force, and Exar Kun dominated him. Thus endeth the argument.

This was refuted earlier in my agrument. Assuming you aren't speed-reading again and making senseless assumptions, you might have already addressed it.

Yoda's had brushes with Dark Siders. Nowhere has he engaged in Sith that I remember, especially since the Sith have been in hiding for over a thousand years. Of course, with recent canon changes happening left and right, this may be the case. Yoda's offhand statement to Whie Malreux doesn't convince me that he's suddenly the world expert on fighting Sith, versus someone who lived in a time when Sith were around and apparently learned an ability to shut them off routinely from the Force after Sadow's forces were destroyed. I'm not saying Yoda couldn't school most dark siders quite easily (He did a fine job with Sidious) but a large majority of Yoda's life was spent being a couch potato too and reading. I don't see how you claim Odan-Urr is innately inferior to Yoda in Force mastery simply because he wasn't out killing Dark Siders in his younger years.

Oh wait, he was.

That happens to any Jedi who knows what they're doing. Luke does it, Mace does it, Revan does it, etc. "Opening yourself to the Force" requires knowledge, not necessarily just power alone, or else Anakin Skywalker would have destroyed Yoda long ago, right?

Skipping the next part because it's been addressed.

His is the first time it's mentioned. His description implies that he either made it, or took it and perfected it. Either way is impressive. If you're assuming that any Dark Side users worth a damn were dead or gone by the time Odan-urr participated in the following clean up process, I'd love to see something definite. The only Sith Lords killed included Ludo Kressh and those loyal to him and Sadow. lower level Sith Lords may have still survived, and since there's no way to truly differentiate their individual Force levels, there's no way to say random Sith is weaker than anyone other than Exar Kun, since Kun is the only exception to Odan-Urr's experience that we know.

Whoa, way to show hatred for a comic book character, LS. A bit cranky lately, aren't you? Maybe you're arguing this way because you're upset or sick. Normally you don't sound like this much of a hateful blowhard.

Yoda not using the ability nor mentioning it opens up a lot of questions. Did he know of it? Could he do it? If not, why not? Why would he not use it when appropriate? Odan-Urr used it to defend himself when he knew he was in the presence of a dark lord. He keenly sensed Exar Kun's power and malice before Kun was fully in the room and immediately decided to use that ability to render the Force from Kun. That's quite telling. In a situation where evil is loose in the galaxy, Odan-urr, your "idiot mongrel" attempts to remove their one claim to power. A smart thing to do. Yoda, who himself could have stopped the war, saved millions, and changed the fate of the galaxy by simply doing the same thing to Dooku and Sidious, did not even bring the idea up.

So seriously - how is Odan-urr an idiot for doing the smartest, quickest thing to disable a Dark Sider while Yoda never even considers it despite the fact that it cost the lives of millions in a war and the lives of the entire Jedi Order? Which is a more moral choice, do you think?

Outside of the fact that the third Great Schism isn't even included in TOTJ works (Nice attention to detail there), Odan-urr's failure at something which he was adept at and something which worked easily on Ulic speaks measures for Kun, and less so for Odan-urr. Ultimately, I'm not out to prove Odan-Urr directly equals Yoda or that he's even better (Which is a ridiculous stance that you're seizing on here) but that he's a top level Force master and his sheer knowledge and practice of the Force alone implies that Exar Kun, who is much better, is amazing enough to kill Skywalker and with those amulet blasts potentially kill Yoda too.

Janus Marius

Keyword on my part is vastly, but either way I'm not making the assertion that "Odan is more powerful" than Yoda. I'll say this again:

Read my posts slower!

You've consistently shown a lack of reading comprehension and attacked points I haven't even made.

Also, of course Yoda's power is stacked a lot against other Jedi in his own time -- he has tons of exposure. It's common sense. You'll likely never see Odan-Urr in EU again.

So you're saying I have to stack Exar Kun linearly alongside Yoda in Force powers because... this will somehow resolve the issue of the Sith amulets? Actually, my initial point was against Skywalker, who is a flea in this fight. Some of Kun's showings indicate his shrugging off of Odan-Urr's "difficult" ability which he was "adept" at and his subsequent Force-choking of Odan which killed the 1000 year old Jedi Master. If you needed to substantiate Exar Kun's Force showings without picking a particular example against inferiors (Such as the Senate, or Sylvar, for example) this is perhaps his best example. If it doesn't satisfy you, I suggest a cold shower and a cigarette, because that's all we have to work with.

If this statement wasn't followed by your signature, I would have assumed some random insignificant KMC personality posted it. Really, you're slipping. Slowly reread everything I've posted here and get back to me when you make sense, okay?

Darth Sexy

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I've decided to skip tdtd's arguments, since it's more loudmouthed arrogance than any founding in reason. Faunus' post was very good and made me put the idea of knowledge and actual power better into perspective. But the Troll's forum bashing and ad hominems are tiresome.

Lightsnake:

My stance is this: Odan-Urr's technique is supposively difficult and used only in times of dire need.
I wouldn't call what Nomi did 'dire need.' And it can't be too difficult if Odan explains it once to Nomi and she gets it instantly, or if Vergere and Tholme can use it. Or Kyle Katarn instinctively.

There'd be no reason to favor or use it whatsoever in their circumstances, for one. It's like asking why Mace didn't force crush Grievous whenever he met him as opposed to dueling him and throwing him off a train.

Both have to 'reach deep' into the Force first. Considering Nomi used it after hearing about it once, seems that it's

No. You could go on and one of why someone doesn't do so and so in Star Wars when it could benefit them. Fact is, Yoda had knowledge of the technique and Jedi of his order demonstrate it.
They either judged it to be useless in the scenario-given Exar shows us it can be resisted, or the situation didn't call for it.
Or they put stock in the whole 'severing people from the force is a horrible, horrible thing' and don't fling it out at the first sign of danger

He's a genius in the sense he's bookish. In any scenario where he was counted on, he failed.

He says he became adept with it in those days. Given that we know he skipped off to Ossus and apparently never saw combat with a Sith beyond Kirrek, the meaning of which becomes questionable given the Republic and Tetans returned to turn the Sith worlds into extinct ruins

The Hyperspace war literally over with that and Odan grabs the Holocron and epihanies that he needs to get to Ossus.

And thanks to secondary materials we know what the mop up was: Essentially genocide. the Sith had been crippled by the Hyperspace war

Or he learned it when he went to Ossus and founded the giant library.
The fact is, he's never, ever once mentioned as participating in the war or facing anyone in combat. Rather, it's implied the entirety of the Sith ruling class was destroyed after Naga purged them and wiped out his entire fleet with the suns going nova. Any remaining Dark Lords hightailed it out of there to Ambria and the like and left their worlds to be destroyed.
After that, the Republic and Tetan fleets apparently just returned and annihilated the species.
Either Odan's words have been retconned somewhat or he faced some minor Sith in battle somehow. .

Force Users tend to be able to do that. If they're more powerful than their enemy, then they can throw up barriers, or defend themselves via the force.
My point is Exar did what all Force users do. being more powerful than Odan, he was able to resist

Wasn't able to 'overcome?' Both hit one another with their attacks and sent eachother flying and Obi took more of the damage. Anakin's reserves of power are enough to collapse a building with a single emanation of the Force and he's got the greatest reserves of just about anyone ever.
Add that to one of the most unquestionably powerful, able and skilled Jedi Masters ever, even with Anakin adding his power to Yoda or lashing out at Kun and what is Kun going to do? He's facing two of the strongest Force Users ever and that's not a good position to be in, even if you're as powerful as he is

Good, neither did I.

Yes, because Exar has SO clearly demonstrated the ability to multitask there and it's not as if Yoda can throw up a force shield, redirect and absorb enemy, or that Sith amulets and talismans can be destroyed...or that Yoda has shown himself capable of dodging things much bigger than those beams

Yeah, and taking away from the realm of incredibly biased speculation that you're currently residing in, how the hell will Exar be able of dividing up his abilities and be able to defend even slightly against the other?
Oh, and given the size of the beams? Pardon me if I'm doubting that Yoda won't be able to leap away and retaliate immediately, given that he's able to dodge a rain of hailfire missiles without effort. The first episodes of the new Clone Wars show show him demonstrating more than the ability to do so.
Or just hit Exar with a force wave first.

Take it up with KJA if you don't like how Odan is portrayed. He's a worthless hindrance to his allies more than he hurts his enemies. Fact is, Anakin's reserves of power and the power he's demonstrated? He eclipses Odan firmly. When he goes all out in most scenarios that we've seen, he's capable of holding his own with most anyone.

Lightsnake

This is the same Dooku who defeated two of the most powerful and skilled Jedi of the Order, while exhausted, without any apparent effort?
Matter of fact? I do see Dooku resisting anything Odan has to throw at him unless you care to argue Oda's power>Dooku's-and the evidence is in Dooku's favor- and I would see him wrecking Odan in combat more easily than he did Sora Bulq.

and I'm thinking you're misinterpreting my post

No. But then everything written on the conflict means it's doubtful Odan encountered anything more powerful than an acolyte

So what? Nobody in a fight asks to be kille. You tend to have to overpower them. If the enemy is stronger and tries to resist, the chances are they will as we've seen maybe dozens of times throughout the saga.
Fact is, any Sith Odan would've fought? The idea they were in the slightest bit powerful whatsoever?
The onus rests on you. Why should we believe they compare to even Obi-wan Kenobi, given the entirety of the theocracy of the Sith had been destroyed or had fled leaving behind enemies incapable of resisting?

Perhaps I haven't been clear:
Enemy 1 uses attack
Enemy 2 tries to resist
Is Enemy 1 more powerful than enemy 2?
No? The attack will likely be resisted with just a defense of the Force.
Odan's power has not been shown to rival or even come close to numerous other Jedi. Frankly, if his only boon is the Sever Force ability, that means he's starting at the same level as Vergere or neophyte Kyle Katarn who did the ability instinctively on Jerec at the Valley of the Jedi and cut him off from the valley's power.
With this considered, just that attack is not enough to put Odan on any great level.

This is absurd. Your complaint is he doesn't have enough exposure so we're underpowering him? No, he had four 6 issue minis to show us ANYTHING of note or impressive power. That was not delivered upon. When we're going to compare, should Odan being 'the Yoda of the era' be enough to put him anywhere close to the tiers of people who have demonstrated an ample amount of power that eclipses what Odan has shown?

False. There was a great deal of time after the 4th schism to rebuilding lost information. A good deal of it succeeded and all of the knowledge of Odan, Arca, Vodo and Ood persisting via their Holocron's shows that just maybe the 'modern Force era' isn't so deficient after all.
Knowledge on its own isn't the same without power to back it up

PRoblem is, he's been shown having the power to use it. Knowledge is great, but you need to combine it with power and skill.
Yoda has. Odan?

Nothing indicates Odan 'created it,' so drop that, 1. No demonstration of power or ability save failure in everything and getting killed in the first real fight is a deficiency as well. Odan probably has the greatest display of knowledge of the ancient Jedi. He has not shown the power, potential ot skill to make it useful.
Is that clear?

all the training in the world won't matter if your potential and power aren't that great.
Yoda practiced abilities for the purpose of combat and apparently had his share of fights and battles and kept his skills in peak form.
Odan did not.

Faunus

Both have to 'reach deep' into the Force first. Considering Nomi used it after hearing about it once, seems that it'sConsidering Nomi also picked up a lightsaber for the first time and wielded it "like a master," that's a bad example. She's a prodigy, not the standard by which others should be judged. Vergere is old and has demonstrated a broad range of knowledge with the Force, having been a Jedi Knight, Sith apprentice, and observer of the Vong. The technique Tholme used cannot actually be the same unless someone else rekindled his connection for him. How can someone with no connection to the Force simply give himself the ability to touch it again?

I'm not familiar with Kyle's use of it, so I'm hoping you can fill me in on that a little.

And then stalled for several seconds because neither could overpower the other.

Obi-Wan "took more damage"? Don't make things up.

An old, likely radiation-damaged ceiling that he unintentionally brought down when he roared. It was an accident.

Which he means he probably won't tire out, not that he can go Force-pounding people into oblivion.

"Adding his power"? You understand that this is the raging Sith Lord Darth Vader, right? Cohesiveness probably isn't his thing.

Anakin is not a heavyweight when it comes to effective use of the Force. His power makes him a dangerous swordsman and certainly a force to be reckoned with, but even Obi-Wan - despite having comparatively negligible potential - was able to completely counter his Force-push when Skywalker was at his pre-suit peak.

How?

What, and when?

No they don't. He fights super battledroids and casually disarms Asajj Ventress. Hardly Exar Kun-level enemies.

Faunus

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Since the great Janus can't seem to stop embarrassing himself, let's point out a few things here..

1. I have stated what Faunus and lightsnake have stated. Just because I choose not to be bullied by you and also choose to point out your incompetence and pseudo intellect, no need to get angry with me.

2. You are the very epitome of a troll, coming back to this forum, getting pwned, running back to your dying forum until you realize that even by your best efforts, you're not liked in real life nor the internet, by which time you come back to KMC, troll around, get pwned, and retreat again. We've seen this happen far too many times.
3. I think you're the only one who believes you have any reasoning abilities, much less objecitivty. I guess delusion, egocentrism, and lack of self awareness are all connected.
4. The fact that you're egocentric and possess 0 self awareness is far too evident. Calling you a hypocrite wouldn't even register in that minute brain of yours. Now please Janus, stop embarrassing yourself and continue your career as a lowly customer service rep-running-a-dead-forum. He was talking to a "tdtd," whom you do not know.

Just saying.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Faunus
He was talking to a "tdtd," whom you do not know.

Just saying.

He was referring to me, while calling me "tdtd". So I'm allowed to reply to his stupidity. That is of course, unless you kids want to go on that pointless witch hunt again, which did absolutely nothing but waste time.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Janus Marius
So you're countering my argument with... a blanket argument that lacks substantiation? How does that work?

1. So Yoda is better than Odan-urr by virtue of what exactly? More exposure? Vague, unsupported assertions? Work with me here.
Better feats, greater displays of power, far more textual support. Being called the most powerful foe the darkness had ever known would speak

Unlike them, Yoda had a wall of Sith Holocrons to study from-and according to the visual dictionaries, he did- to learn about the Dark Side and how to combat it. By Odan's time, the Sith had been supposedly extinct a millennium. The last conflict with Dark Siders had been the Third Schism....why would the Jedi Masters of Odan's time be adept in fighting Sith at all? The nearest they came was Arca's purging Onderon...the Sith War was literally the first time they'd fought the Sith again and Odan's experience, from the comics, is a bit limited to 'stand around and do nothing' in the war and unknown actions in the mopping up.

As we know from Jedi vs. Sith, most Sith Holocrons will share their knowledge. The Telos Holocron did so to Tionne very freely. Dooku accessed some in his youth, secretly.
The better chance they'll have of corrupting Jedi.

Possibly because they have access to all of the wisdom of the original given how Holocrons workl, plus whatever else they'll pick up. Bane, for instance, got all of Revan's knowledge. He proceeded to get all of Nadd's and Belia Darzu's and likely more besides.
Yoda would have access to Odan's knowledge, Arca's and mainy other Holocrons besides and the time to study them.

What about that statement was objectionable now? Somehow, Anakin isn't one of the most powerful Jedi anymore? Somehow, Yoda isn't powerful, experienced or knowledgable anymore?
Seriously, you're objecting to what now? What about 'the last one' is painful?
You're trying to elevate Odan to prop up Kun. Kind of a tenuous position to take.

What indicates he's moving while he's firing? he blasts the wyrm gets on its back and begins blasting away. And he's focusing on using this one thing. Nothing-nothing-indicates he can split up his attention, especially given his opponents.
The issue you're neglecting: Exar is under attack from two people. When has he shown the ability to use the amulets on one amazingly powerful enemy who is comparable if not superior to him in power as well as split his attention and power on another very powerful Jedi.
For that matter, when has anyone been shown using the amulets in conjunction with anything else? they seem to require a bit of effort to use, given that you need to channel your power and aim them

No, it isn't. Kun moving in between blasts shows he has acrobatic abilities. Splitting his attention and power between opponents is something undemonstrated, something you cannot show or prove or even back up with any conceivable shred of shown evidence since Kun never bothers using the amulets again.
And use the force to push or pull Anakin? Usually, when an enemy is as powerful as Anakin, a casual lash of power won't really do much when he'll be throwing his power right back at Kun, in conjunction with Yoda.
So, do tell me, Janus, how exactly will Kun be dividing himself here? This is beneath you.,

Oh, come on now. We kind of assume the enemies will be ready for combat and Yoda won't be leaning on his stick, not using the Force to empower himself. No, in a vs. scenario like this? Both will be ready to fight.

By that token, Kun is so ridiculously arrogant, he doesn't bother ever using those amulets ever again. What will allow him to raise his arm and fire before Yoda attacks first exactly? How will he divide himself against the simultaneous assaults of two of the most powerful Jedi of all time? Is Kun able to do everything with no effort now? Does he have no limits at all?

Lord The blasts are energy. Things that can be blocked with barriers, or deflects...Yoda is capable of doing this with turbolasers. Considering Yoda is able to dance without effort through a stream of hailfire missiles and blaster fire when annihilating an entire army of droids, I don't think he's going to lack the reflexes to dodge a beam like that, especially given how small it starts out-nowhere near as big as a hailfire missile for one

If you're going to argue Kun's speed is close to an all out Yoda, then this begs for proof. Or that Yoda won't leap and lash out with the Force immediately to fling Kun down while Kun is also having to divide himself up with Anakin. Kun has to keep moving his arm to fire and Yoda has demonstrated incredible speed.

Lightsnake

Based upon...? any time he fired the blasts, he was stationary. If he wants to play the acrobatics game, Yoda's demonstrated much superior speed and abilities there and somehow Yoda will just be dodging and Anakin will be sitting back on the ground watching and not do anything like throw a force push at a distracted Exar, or Yoda won't hit Exar with a dose of Malacia on the spot? Because Exar will be expecting anything like that from Yoda and be totally prepared to defend himself?

The idea Anakin is an unskilled dunce with no notion of teamwork died shofrtly after Attack of the Clones. He's remarkably adaptable and powerful and while Exar is attacking one of them, the other teammate will return in kind, forcing Exar to divide himself utterly.
Not only that, but Exar'll have to keep turning against the other two, and an incredible fast and able Yoda is not the person you want to be distracted while facing.
again, one of them is going to attack and the idea Exar will be able to throw up a barrier or shield while totally devoted to offense is a dubious assertion. At best

Well, let's think..in the KOTOR comics, the Jedi Covenant has been suppressing Sith artifacts' power. Luke apparently did the same with Shadowspawn, though that might be retconned in Shadows of Mindor.

Ok, so before Kun can raise his arm, Yoda can throw a Force wave, or hit him with a dose of Malacia. The latter of which Kun has never dealt with and has no knowledge of.
If Yoda can kick back in front of a droid army and get active immediately when he needs to, I really doubt he won't leap into action the moment he feels danger via precognition or recognizing a Sith tool by the heavy dose of Dark Side power the things emit.

Again, resorting to the 'nobody could stop him in his era?' Guess what? Yoda isn't from his era, who Kun dominated then means nothing. The Force users he fought then could be counted on one hand. There's...Odan, whose power is under question. Vodo, who notably didn't use the Force against him. And Ood, who also didn't use the force and they have their duel cut short. And he force pushed Sylvar.
Yoda's demonstrated much more power than anyone from Kun's era. The textual evidence is also extreme by him. By what evidence will Kun be able to handle him then? "He tooled everyone in his era!"" No, that doesn't fly. Kun has either demonstrated the power to deal with someone to Yoda's level in conjunction with another amazing, powerful and skilled fighter or he hasn't.
The onus falls on you to argue there. By the same token, why are Kun's abilities going to work every single time on the Jedi now?

'More exposure.' Is this all you have? Complaining that Yoda's the one with more exposure? No, Yoda is the one with backing and evidence and more chances to display his power.
and 'Yoda will use them?' You're assuming Exar will stand there and gleefully cackle while spamming amulet blasts despite never using them in personal combat save the first time in a rush of exhilaration.
Yes, if we're playing that game, why shouldn't Yoda use everything in his arsenal? Given Exar didn't instantly unleash his amulets on Vodo, Cay, Nomi and Sylvar when he saw them opposing him, I find the idea that he'll break them out here somewhat.
Moreover, this is a force fighter, meaning Anakin and Yoda will attack via the Force against their opponent and usually one assumes they'll break out what they have at their disposal. Even if we assume Yoda holds all his powers in reserve, he'll still be throwing around force waves, or using the environment against Kun, or throwing around high level or lots of other things.
It comes down to power vs. power there.

Throwing up a barrier with the Force typically deals with blasts of energy. We've seen Luke, Caedus, possibly Tott Doneeta and others create them, as well as Valenthyne Farfalla, Lord Qordis, etc.
Kun's amulet blasts are blasts of pure energy at that, and the greatest they get that we saw after numerous blasts was about as big as Kun's body.
We've also seen plenty of amulet users who tend not to use them right off. Notably: Vader, Kaan, Caedus, Lumiya and others.
If they're such amazing aces in the hole, why do none of their possessors ever use them in fights?

I didn't say he was or he would. You keep assuming Kun is going to be able to do everything he wants without any heed or interference from Yoda or Anakin, and it's getting a bit frustrating.
Yes, Kun is going to retaliate with all his power. He knows lots of Sith techniques, I'm sure, he's a force lightning master. Problem is, he's facing a very bad matchup. If his blasts fail, then you really think Yoda won't retaliate as viciously as possible?

Back to you. And quit adopting this attitude when you're finding it hard to argue your point

Except Odan? Name one.
And name me the masters Exar dominated with the Force, Odan excepted.
and explain why this matters to Yoda's era. Yoda is also capable of dominating the premier force users of his era. One of whom would be T'ra Saa, a Jedi who fought in the New Sith Wars 1000 years prior.

Lightsnake

Again, show me all these displays of Exar dominating people with the Force. Odan is it, excepting force pushing Sylvar. Exar rarely uses the Force to actually fight people. Yod is also practically undefeated and has demonstrated far greater skill than his contemporaries, including the great Depa Billaba and Mace Windu and Count Dooku, named one of the mightiest Jedi in order's history who became more powerful as a Sith.
Fact is, Janus, Exar being unmatched in his own era doesn't mean he gets an advantage against Palpatine, or Bane, or Revan, or Marka Ragnos. Or even Lord Hoth or Valenthyne Farfalla. These people are not from his era and whatever Kun was able to do there doesn't matter to the future or the past. It means he was the undisputed titan of his time, no more, no less. Yoda's era just happens to have a lot more notable figures.
I'm not accusing you of embellishing facts but you're

This is rude, uncalled for and WRONG
Guess what? IT's up to you to PROVE UP that those Jedi stack up to them. Who have more textual support? Anakin and Yoda. Who have the displays of power and ability? Anakin and Yoda.
Who, then, are logically much more powerful? You have to prove the TOTJ Jedi stack up. Frankly? You only keep reiterating they were the best of their time. So what? Lucas has said the PT was the Jedi's prime when discussing combat, as Advent has kindly pointed out numerous times and consisted of some of the greatest warriors and force users in Order history.
Why should I believe Vodo can beat Agen Kolar? Why should I believe Master Arca can stand to Count Dooku? I've seen feats and ability from Dooku and Agen. I've seen little in the way of that from Arca and vodo that's comparable

Not worth a response

Ok. So Yoda DIDN'T dominate Dooku in Dark Rendezvous? Dooku wasn't that powerful?
Why don't you stop your snide little side comments and stop acting pissy when points are brought against you?

1. Kyp was dominated. It's not the end-all of points, but it is a point. He lured Kyp first, dominated him second.
None of this involved anything using the force. Kun seduced Kyp to the Dark Side and Kyp gave in to the point where he utterly relied on Kun for help and guidance

We can't claim that because Sith spirits and Jedi spirits are utterly different.
Not only do Obi-wan, Anakin and Yoda not make the attempt to manifest further and happily yield to the Force, but Kun bound his spirit to the temple, a different ball game.
Not only that, but Kun had grown more powerful since killing Gantoris and taking Luke from his body, as well as having the darkness on Yavin revived.

To contrast and compare, his spirit fought and was defeated by a small group of spacers beforehand according to Galaxies.

False. By virtue of all the evidence Yoda has vs. the smaller backing of the others

Now you're just playing sour grapes.
Anything you say about Kun? Most of it can be applied to Bane and Revan regarding their times. The problem? It means nothing. Not a damned thing.
Stop using this as a point in lieu of actual power and feats. Kun has shown very little to make us think he would be capable of handling Yoda with ease and you're overplaying the amulets utterly and downplaying Skywalker.

Darth_Glentract

Ah, good old thirty thousand character posts. Haven't seen those in a while.

Faunus

Indeed. This is one of the longer pages I've seen this year.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Janus Marius
That's the crux of your agrument though, isn't it? If I say Odan-Urr is a top level Force master on the levels of Yoda and Mace you immediately go "nuh uh!" Why? Because Odan-urr hasn't done the sheer amount of combat and force feats they have.
Because there's no evidence for it? Because Odan has shown nothing but utter failure?
What about this is hard? realize that just maybe we're going by available evidence. Hey, what DOESN'T Odan have?

Odan doesn't. Oh, well! Evidence he compares to Yoda or Mace at all, now? Going to complain they're just overexposed as if that helps your point whatsoever?

Ok. So I should believe he's powerful when he's shown so little...why?
When nothing backs him up? When the evidence is on the other side?
I shouldn't, should I?
Now you're complaining LFL has a bias for overpowering movie characters.
Guess what? All those 'shitloads' still count as evidence for my argument.
And I'll happily use it.

Except Odan is shown as nothing more than a worthless fool without any significant power at all higher than Vergere or neophyte Kyle Katarn.
Why is Exar dominating him a great feat? If he's the Yoda of his era, then his era has amazingly low standards.
Using this as evidence that Exar will beat Yoda and Anakin is flawed at best.
I'm saying only that you need evidence to show Odan is a significant power at all. If you don't have that then all the overexposure in the world won't change that Yoda and Mace have more backing and evidence to prove my point that Odan is very little compared to them.

and I refuted it right back. Funny, that.

It's heavily hinted Yoda's faced them;

Yeah, the Sith were 'around' so much they showed up, fought for a day and was utterly destroyed and then exterminated. Stop making it seem as if they were a massive presence in the galaxy before the Hyperspace War.
With the 'recent canon changes,' we have nothing saying Odan fought anything more powerful than an acolyte and even that's questionable.

he spent a good chunk of it traveling. All we know is he was in the temple comfortably by 100 BBY and he was well known even then as traveler until his old age. The Witches of Dathomir and Fallanassi knew him very well.
The huge, huge chunk of Yoda's life? Unknown.

No, because Odan went to Ossus, established the library and that was it. He's demonstrated nothing to come close to Yoda's abilities, and his experience pales to Yoda.
When you look at it, save possibly knowledge, Odan is inferior to Yoda in almost every way

Yeah. Name a single time Odan killed a Dark Sider.
Just one. Even assuming he severed anyone from the Force with all the canon work these days, where's the killing involved?

With Anakin, it'd be tapping into his reserves, which tends to happen for him in short bursts.

No, it doesn't. He said he became 'adept' in it. That's all.

The remaining Dark Lords had fled to worlds like Ambria immediately. The others are mentioned as dead. Numerous ones died in the battles, including Garu and Tritos Nal, Naga had the rest purged by the Massassi and the rest in the fleets were killed in the space battle or when Naga blew up the twin suns.

Lightsnake

Some 'may' have survived?' That much, sure. The utter destruction that followed when the Republic and Tetan fleets burned the Sith worlds to ash?
Evidence here is needed that Odan fought anyone of power.

Save it, Janus. Every time you find your argument lacking you resort to snide little side comments and not isn't exception

And? Kyle Katarn knows it and has used it. Caedus knows it and has used it as well.
Why didn't Kyle use it on Desann? Or Caedus? why didn't Caedus use it on Luke? Or Jaina? Or Mara?
Yoda's mentioned as knowing a lot and as he had direct access to the Tedryn Holocron and given that about two Jedi of Yoda's order are shown to be able to use it?

Errr, no. He senses the Holocron is acting odd and Kun yanks it away. Only then does Odan realize what his opponent is. The bit about "I'm this Sith Holocron's rightful owner." Might've been a clue.

Smarter thing would've been to use your last breaths or power to call out to any other Jedi to warn them rather than bemoan how worthless you are. Even Jacen Solo and Mara Jade are able to do something worthwhile with their final moments.
In fact, the list of last minute warnings through the force from dying Jedi aren't really...in short supply.
I never said trying to stop Exar wasn't a good idea, but really, forcing a confrontation with someone so much more powerful than you?

Yes, at what point could he have stopped anything? With the Separatists fled, the war was inevitable, Mace knew it.
Not only did Yoda hold out hope Dooku could be saved up to Dark Rendezvous, when the heck would using it on Palpatine be a good idea? Not only are they on par, rendering the good idea that Palpatine could block such a draining move and leaving Yoda worse off, but Yoda'd have to proceed to kill a helpless old man.

Yeah, looking at the situations as I just described now?

They mention it. The Vultar Cataclysm.

Means a bit less when you consider Odan decided to impulsively attack someone more powerful as opposed to alerting the Jedi after Kun had left, when Odan's apparently experience with this technique has been on people who likely don't come close to top tier.

And SKywalker and Yoda aren't much better, which would kind of nullify that stance?
No, sorry. Odan was a one-trick pony of no demonstrated power beyond neophyte Kyle Katarn. His knowledge isn't under question. His power in the Force and combat ability? You need to prove he comes remotely close to Anakin or Yoda and that they aren't leagues above him to show that as a boon for Exar in this match.

And here's what I'll say:
If you don't want me misinterpreting something, stop using it as a point in Kun's favor.

it seems you're the one not reading my posts here.

So what? Significance?
By what we have to go on? Yoda's leaps and bounds above Odan.
When Yoda's power is stacked against Jedi of all time, he's measured as superior to a great degree

Way to read my posts.
Practice what you preach

Except he's kind of not. He's considered one of the most powerful Jedi of the Order he's in and for good reason. His displays of power and reserves that he tends to access in a good deal of fights are insane.

And Yoda far eclipses t'ra Saa in power, who's quite a bit older than just one thousand, and fought in a time when Sith were actually plentiful and conducting massive wars against the Jedi.
Kun was just more powerful than Odan. No more, no less

When you're trying to establish those as points to conclude that Kun will take both Yoda and Anakin?
Then no, they don't. Try harder.

Oh, do kindly knock it off. you pull this same shit no matter what post I make.
The problem is you disagree with what I'm saying.. Have a problem with it? Then stop your bitching, stop acting like a prissy little child and actually go for the points.

How about you read what I posted, stop inflating anyone who's 'old' to ridiculous levels and then get back to me? Or better yet, actually go by what the evidence gives us.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Faunus
Considering Nomi also picked up a lightsaber for the first time and wielded it "like a master," that's a bad example. She's a prodigy, not the standard by which others should be judged. Vergere is old and has demonstrated a broad range of knowledge with the Force, having been a Jedi Knight, Sith apprentice, and observer of the Vong. The technique Tholme used cannot actually be the same unless someone else rekindled his connection for him. How can someone with no connection to the Force simply give himself the ability to touch it again?
Considering, again, Kyle was able to use it instinctively, that doesn't scream 'amazingly difficult' to me.
Not only that, but Tholme's ability has, I believe, been identified as sever force and according to what's been written on the ability, touching the force again is possible and the technique 'can be broken' with time.

The Dark Forces saga article says Kyle uses the 'wall of light' to block Jerec from the power of the Vallaey of the Jedi

Obi-wan's the one who hits the wall harder and Anakin is back up first

Didn't know that.

Again, he sends Durge of all people flying with a Force Push...and I believe Tyranus felt his power grow exceptionally. To quote the visual guides, 'dooku realizes too late that Anakin Skywalker is more powerful than he can imagine.'
He has near infinite reserves and he can likely tap into his amazing raw power

Unless Exar is throttling Padme in front of him...this is the same Vader who killed Cin Drallig and not the hysterical, raging Sith who fought Obi, right?

And again, Anakin has quite a bit of textual backing and some feats with the Force. There's no reason to assume he'll be a pushover here

with the Force. Or weaponry. Heck, Ragnos's scepter was blown up when Jaden stabbed it with his saber.

I said in my post: hailfire missiles

I was more meaning in regards to the speed and agility he showed there.
And g

Lightsnake

Oh, and Janus, FYI? I am sick right now...if I threw out too many flames in there, I'm sorry.

If you care to chat on AIM again, I'd be happy to hear from you

Faunus

Not only that, but Tholme's ability has, I believe, been identified as sever force and according to what's been written on the ability, touching the force again is possible and the technique 'can be broken' with time.Where is this stated?

Thank you.

That's very weak, especially since you can't prove that Obi-Wan hit the wall harder at all.

And if you noticed, Anakin pretty much jumped from where he'd landed, and Obi-Wan was up and waiting for him by the time they locked sabers. Anakin is physically superior and infinitely more aggressive, so this isn't saying much anyway.

He levitates a bunch of mines around Durge and detonates them, then knocks the completely dazed bounty hunter into an escape pod. A Force-attack on a momentarily crippled non-Force-sensitive isn't really saying much.

And I argued this...?

He still can't overpower Obi-Wan.

lol

There's a notable difference?

He can't overpower Obi-Wan and the best he ever did against Ventress was wrapping her up in electrical cables. Your "textual backing" praises his raw power and potential; never once does he demonstrate surpassing mastery of that power.

Find me an instance where anyone on Kun's level of power had his or her weaponry destroyed through the Force, or there's no case.

From hailfire droids? Those aren't bigger than the Force-blasts.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Faunus
Where is this stated?
I believe either Power of the Jedi or the new Essential Guide to alien species, likely the former.

Ok, I'll withdraw this bit

See above

No, immediately after, Durge roars and charges Anakin. anakin throws him into a wall and then dominates his mind with the Force. Durge isn't 'dazed,' his body is just working to heal the damage.

Just saying is all

with the temple there, he's far more methodical and precise as opposed to when he thinks Padme is against him with Obi-wan.

Obsession would be a good indication of that and Dooku feels his power rise to insane levels in their fight. The novelization names him the most powerful Jedi of his generation 'perhaps any generation,'
While I'm not saying he's going to be able to fight Kun, as a combatant, Anakin is substantially deadlier than Odan-ur and a Kun forced to divide his attention between the two of them?

I'll grant nobody on Kun's level has had this happen. Granted, I've never seen someone of Yoda's level try it.

From what I recall from the battle of Jabiim, they're quite a bit bigger than a human body. they're pretty huge at any rate.

Lightsnake

Here's the quote for Kyle, btw, Faunus:

However, during this rapturous illumination, Kyle used an ancient Force technique to sever Jerec's connection to the Force with a wall of pure light. Kyle then proceeded to cut the Dark Jedi down, sending Jerec's soul screaming toward Chaos alongside the Sith spirits of a thousand years hence. Thanks to his enlightenment, Jerec was well aware of the torture without respite that awaited him there.

Faunus

Originally posted by Lightsnake

No, immediately after, Durge roars and charges Anakin. anakin throws him into a wall and then dominates his mind with the Force. Durge isn't 'dazed,' his body is just working to heal the damage.Again, he's a non-Force-sensitive who'd just had several dozen mines detonated in his face.

That said, the battle with Durge is one of my favorite Anakin Skywalker moments, and overall it is a very impressive showing on his part considering Durge had been killing Jedi for two thousand years. But the Force aspect of it alone isn't all that outstanding.

That's hard to judge.

In raw power? It's rather obvious he's the best. But that means little, because outside of lightsaber combat - in which he absolutely excels - he has not demonstrated truly impressive use of the Force.

Would Anakin be able to resist whatever it is Kun did to Odan?

Even if they're larger, the missiles are one-shot weapons. The amulet appears to fire a sustainable beam of energy, or at least several very rapid-fire blasts.

It says "during this rapturous illumination." What was that, and could it have helped?

Gideon

Jerec was absorbing the power of the Valley of the Jedi. According to Jedi Master Rahn, he'd be able to destroy a star system "in a whisper."

Faunus

Oh. So Jerec was the one being "illuminated."

Gotcha.

Gideon

Originally posted by Faunus
Oh. So Jerec was the one being "illuminated."

Gotcha.

Yes.

Jerec is very uber.

Faunus

Jerec is balls.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Faunus
Again, he's a non-Force-sensitive who'd just had several dozen mines detonated in his face.
He's a Gen'Dai. Durge was able to take being sliced in half, decapitated, sliced to pieces and blown up from the inside without much trouble. After some of the things he got from Grievous, mines blowing up in his face isn't that bad and he was far from dazed. Don't forget it's extra difficult to even slightly influence something like Durge...he's ot no central nervous system, just a cluster of nerves all throughout his body

I have to disagree. While the force push thing is a bit in question, his complete domination of Durge's mind is...something.

Well, by the novelization, Anakin/Vader is very cold, ruthless and practical when he leads Operation Knightfall, kills Jurokk and goes for Shaak Ti...with Obi-wan? He believes Padme has betrayed him and has set him up for Obi-wan to kill. He's much more out of control at that point and nowhere near as in control as he was when he was throttling Bene through the force with one hand and kills Cin with one hand and a saber
Also, he takes out Jocasta Nu, who was Jerec's Master and a former Council member herself without any effort and to yank her up like that with the Force, he'd have to have torn through any defenses she raised like Bane did to Qordis.

Possibly. Seems a rather vicious display of power/TK Kun did. Either force choking Odan-unlikely, given Odan is speaking, crushing his heart or just bringing his power on him.
As far as power goes, Anakin has far more raw power and potential than Odan, and is likely better with it in combat.

Yes, but multiple missiles at once?
Not only that, but we've no idea if Kun can blast them off instantly or if he can do it indefinitely. TOTJ isn't really giving us an indicator of this.
And again, if Yoda dodges the beam, he is very likely to instantly strike back, and it leads to mind if Kun will be able to recover enough to defend himself

Without copy/pasting, when Jerec is absorbing the power of the valley, he temporarily becomes purely omniscient. Kyle uses Sever Force to cut him off from the power of the valley and the Force, but likely drops it when he throws Jerec back his saber.

Faunus

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He's a Gen'Dai. Durge was able to take being sliced in half, decapitated, sliced to pieces and blown up from the inside without much trouble.If by "not much trouble" you mean "needed lots of recovery time," yeah. He never just walked away from the truly devastating injuries.

Do you think you could link me to the page? I can't download the comic from swtimeline, and I certainly don't remember any "domination" of Durge's mind.

I don't know about that. Vader isn't completely loony during his duel with Obi-Wan, since he still takes a moment to taunt him.

Well, Jocasta Nu would be at best a lesser Odan-Urr, unless she has some incredible Force-power that I'm unaware of. But yeah, that's fair.

I don't think it was telekinetic; there was an aura around his arm, if I'm not mistaken.

But still not good enough to overpower Obi-Wan. stick out tongue

He fires several blasts in a short span of time; each panel has him hitting something different, or at least more of one thing.

Kun isn't staggered or tired after using it the very first time - although he notes that his hand is burned - so I doubt there would be real recovery time.

Got it.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Faunus
If by "not much trouble" you mean "needed lots of recovery time," yeah. He never just walked away from the truly devastating injuries.
When Obi-wan sliced him in half, he was back on his feet in pretty short order. Not having organs or a central nervous system kind of helps Durge and he's shrugged off some what should be really crippling or mortal wounds

Unfortunately, I don't have a digital copy of obsession, but Anakin evades Durge, slashes him twice, force pushes him into the wall, reaches out and murmurs some lines while concentrating and guiding Durge to the pod before closing it and launching him out

That's still a good dose of pure homicidal rage compared to cold professionalism in the temple, though.

Even so, she was an former Council Member and if her padawan is any indication, she likely wasn't nothing...and her knowledge was probably up ther. Granted, she's not a being of significant power, but she is an experienced Jedi master and this is a point in Ani's favor

The entire panel is tinted with a reddish aura, I believe, which typically represents 'dark power being used' like the blue tint is light side...I think Kun's arm is just extended

PIS?

Yeah, but there's a difference between 'instant' and 'short space of time.' When facing an opponent like Yoda, that makes a difference.
At the very least, Exar has to move his arm to aim and then fire.

I would say it's more enlightening for Kun than anything. Even so, can you really say he's going to be able to keep spamming blasts while having to devote himself to attacks from two fronts? When one of the opponents is Yoda?