ragnos vs. reven

Emperor Revan

Originally posted by Illustrious
Revan pwn3d up some leftovers. Be that Jedi leftovers, Sith leftovers, Rakatan leftovers. He's a cool character, but he would not be in the same league as the Greatest Ruler of the Sith Empire.

Ragnos would shoot lazers out of his scepter and fry him on the spot.

Yeah even though he only defeated one person he must be really powerful. Even though he only ruled over a couple of planets, it's not like any other Sith could possibly rule their entire lives over a couple of planets. It's not like Revan destroyed an entire Sith academy easily with less than a third of his full power later on, he couldn't rule his entire life over a couple of Sith planets. Even though Ragnos manipulated his opponents into fighting each other, and those Sith would still be attacking the dark lord who has ruled for 50 years, daily and in the hundreds surely. Even though he had people who worshipped him (as seen from his grand burial and them not knowing what to think or do without Ragnos) he wouldn't have had any supporters that would defend Ragnos at all from anything.

Even though they used swords back in those times he would still be the leader of an unstoppable Sith empire in it's peak that lost to the Republic even with a form of battle meditation, blowing up stars, and it's super powerful Sith Lords that come from the time that can whisper and kill someone from Revan's level. These Sith must have been in the height of their empire, contentedly ruling over a few planets and not daring to attack the Republic which we now know was for good reason. Even though no credible star wars site says anything about these Sith being all powerful or Ragnos being extremely powerful or even mentioning him at all sometimes they must be.

We know Kreia said that Ragnos posessed tremendous strength, both physically and in the Force. No one else could be described that way (Not Sidious, Yoda, Revan, Kun, Nadd, or Bane) Kreia the one who never manipulates or lies (telling Handmaiden that the Exile is dead, using the Exile for some ulterior motive to try and destroy the Force, etc.) Kreia said Ragnos had tremendous strength both physically and in the Force so Ragnos must be the most powerful being ever capable of destroying planets by blowing his nose. (Even though Kreia says Revan is power and staring at him was like staring at the heart of the Force back when he was just a Jedi padawan and he would later multiply his power several fold, and Kreia is saying this about someone she actually knew unlike Ragnos)

Even though Ragnos' spirit was brought back to life with enough Force energy to power an army of non-Force users to Dark Jedi who can easily wield Force lightning, his spirit didn't have enough Force power to do anything on it's own except trash talk and had to posess a Force user (increasing his power) and even though he also had a Sith Sword he lost to a Jedi knight it was a fluke or something. It's not like Kun's spirit killed a Jedi and required 12 padawans, Luke's spirit, and Vodo's spirit COMBINING their power and two lightsabers to vanquish Kun's spirit who wasn't in a Force user and didn't have a weapon and was a spirit far longer than Ragnos' spirit.

Emperor Revan

It's not like Revan was powerful or anything. (Even though Wikipedia, the Free encyclopedia says that Revan is thought by many to be the most powerful Sith Lord of all time) Ragnos or any ancient Sith for that matter would easily fart and destroy Revan and everyone else of his time (1,000 years later)

Like Illustrious said, Ragnos would fry Revan with a lazer blast from his scepter (which barely hurt Kyle Katarn.)

Congratulations to those who actually read all this. For the slow ones who didn't figure it out, most of that was sarcasm except the in parenthesis parts. Don't you guys think you're making Ragnos out to be a God even though we have little knowledge of him at all? I know Ragnos must be powerful, but saying that he would nod and Revan would kill himself? I like Revan a lot, but I know he has limits and even in close fights if I think he will lose, I post it. I know there are others that can compete with him, or are perhaps even stronger. It just really irritates me that people think this guy we know almost nothing about who has only defeated one person we know of for sure in actual combat, is invincible even if you guys are exaggerating at times.

Darth_Frobo

Frobo's back,back again
Frobo's back tell a friend

Lol I had my fun anyways dudes the truth is I must have said this 1000 times by now (not literally) but we simply have no information on ragnos swordsmanship or force powers what can we say about him? We know what his apprentices could do does that say anything about him? many times apprentices have been much more powerful then their masters. So what if ragnos was feared he could have just used a force power on the minds of the other sith or been a master manipulator like sidious we simply don't know enough to have people making these idiotic

"Ragnos would own enven though we know nothing about him."

"Or Revan would own despite the fact we have no clue what we're comparing him to"

let this thread die there's no reason to waste or time trying to make an impossible comparisson.

Darth_Frobo

PS I still think revan is more powerful out of sheer fanboy noobishness

Emperor Revan

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Frobo's back,back again
Frobo's back tell a friend

Lol I had my fun anyways dudes the truth is I must have said this 1000 times by now (not literally) but we simply have no information on ragnos swordsmanship or force powers what can we say about him? We know what his apprentices could do does that say anything about him? many times apprentices have been much more powerful then their masters. So what if ragnos was feared he could have just used a force power on the minds of the other sith or been a master manipulator like sidious we simply don't know enough to have people making these idiotic

"Ragnos would own enven though we know nothing about him."

"Or Revan would own despite the fact we have no clue what we're comparing him to"

let this thread die there's no reason to waste or time trying to make an impossible comparisson.

I agree 100% with Frobo. The Dark lord of Hairstyles is pretty cool and at least someone agrees with me.

Illustrious

I'm not even going to argue this shit. Kyle Katarn and Ragnos' scepter shooting lazers? When was this?

If you're going by game dynamics. A heavy stance saber to the chest takes off 98 shield/health points.

Wouldn't that SAME blow typically SEVER YOU IN HALF?

Emperor, you're notoriously good at taking only the facts that help your argument, and then chalking up ignorance to the rest.

Ignorance is not an excuse.

Emperor Revan

Originally posted by Illustrious
I'm not even going to argue this shit. Kyle Katarn and Ragnos' scepter shooting lazers? When was this?

If you're going by game dynamics. A heavy stance saber to the chest takes off 98 shield/health points.

Wouldn't that SAME blow typically SEVER YOU IN HALF?

Emperor, you're notoriously good at taking only the facts that help your argument, and then chalking up ignorance to the rest.

Ignorance is not an excuse.

I see you responded well to my two post argument.

You say Ragnos' scepter can shoot lazers. I assumed you meant that Force energy blast that is very similar to a lazer which barely hurt Kyle when Jaden used it. If not than why are you making up stuff? I was never going on game dynamics, it was a cutscene.

Ignorance is not an excuse eh? Nice rebuttal to my several paragraphed posts with ingenious facts stopping everything I said.

Illustrious

The same scepter already depleted by charging up Ragnos and those legions of force users like you CLAIMED in the other thread?

What now? You're going to renege on your words?

Can't have your cake and eat it too, huh?

What the hell did your two posts with "ingenious facts" have to do with Ragnos?

You're effectively doing this:

"Anakin owns. He has the highest midi-chlorian count ever, even higher than Master Yoda. He was practically the embodiment of the force. He was the chosen one. The Jedi Master that found him, Qui-Gon called him the chosen one and demanded he be trained, Obi-Wan trained him as the chosen one.

He was considered one of the greatest heroes in the Clone Wars when he was a fraction of his true potential. And when he went dark, he killed hundreds of Jedis in the temple! YAYAYA Anakin must own Ragnos! All we know about Ragnos is that he defeated one Sith."

It doesn't matter that that Sith was considered the most powerful of his time. It doesn't matter that he could flinch and make Sadow and Kressh piss in their pants. It doesn't matter that he commanded power on his death bed. It doesn't matter that his spirit scared the crap out of Sadow and Kressh WHILE dueling, it doesn't matter that he could make Kun and Ulic bow to him, no, no, it doesn't matter, because Anakin had more affirmed kills.

Don't be daft. You're basing your argument on ignorance.

Emperor Revan

Originally posted by Illustrious
The same scepter already depleted by charging up Ragnos and those legions of force users like you CLAIMED in the other thread?

What now? You're going to renege on your words?

Can't have your cake and eat it too, huh?

What the hell did your two posts with "ingenious facts" have to do with Ragnos?

You're effectively doing this:

"Anakin owns. He has the highest midi-chlorian count ever, even higher than Master Yoda. He was practically the embodiment of the force. He was the chosen one. The Jedi Master that found him, Qui-Gon called him the chosen one and demanded he be trained, Obi-Wan trained him as the chosen one.

He was considered one of the greatest heroes in the Clone Wars when he was a fraction of his true potential. And when he went dark, he killed hundreds of Jedis in the temple! YAYAYA Anakin must own Ragnos! All we know about Ragnos is that he defeated one Sith."

It doesn't matter that that Sith was considered the most powerful of his time. It doesn't matter that he could flinch and make Sadow and Kressh piss in their pants. It doesn't matter that he commanded power on his death bed. It doesn't matter that his spirit scared the crap out of Sadow and Kressh WHILE dueling, it doesn't matter that he could make Kun and Ulic bow to him, no, no, it doesn't matter, because Anakin had more affirmed kills.

Don't be daft. You're basing your argument on ignorance.

Firstly, Jaden only used the scepter against Kyle ON THE DARK SIDE ONLY! Meaning Tavion didn't bring Ragnos back to life now did he? It's kinda funny you thinking you're always right and trying to rub it in just to find out you're wrong.

The "ingenious facts" I said was merely sarcasm toward your last post which you only commented on the scepter. It wasn't about my posts.

Now I have never read anywhere that Sadow and Kressh feared him or at least as much as you say. Sure they didn't fight him, instead they were smart and merely waited for him to die. They didn't follow his orders when Ragnos came to them as a spirit now did they?

Next, Kun and Ulic DID NOT bow before him. I'm getting sick of you making up your little fantasies about what you wish happened. And you think I have bad arguments and total ignorance?

Illustrious

Yes, the same scepter you claimed "charged hundreds of Dark Jedi warriors that can use lightning" right? I like how you totally ignored what I said about reneging on your words.

You like taking every little word literally, don't you?

Ok, take this literally:

What does Revan killing a bunch of people that have little or nothing to do with Ragnos prove? That just proves he can kill those little people that have nothing to do with Ragnos. It doesn't show he's stronger than Ragnos, or anything of that matter.

You claim I make up my little fantasies, yet you MUST post in everything thread concerning Revan, and you MUST argue that Revan has a chance. Oh please.

I also like how you threw out my perfectly logical Anakin analogy and decided to make it a personal attack instead. Yes, lack of logic is certainly strong with this one.

Emperor Revan

Originally posted by Illustrious
Yes, the same scepter you claimed "charged hundreds of Dark Jedi warriors that can use lightning" right? I like how you totally ignored what I said about reneging on your words.

You like taking every little word literally, don't you?

Ok, take this literally:

What does Revan killing a bunch of people that have little or nothing to do with Ragnos prove? That just proves he can kill those little people that have nothing to do with Ragnos. It doesn't show he's stronger than Ragnos, or anything of that matter.

You claim I make up my little fantasies, yet you MUST post in everything thread concerning Revan, and you MUST argue that Revan has a chance. Oh please.

I also like how you threw out my perfectly logical Anakin analogy and decided to make it a personal attack instead. Yes, lack of logic is certainly strong with this one.

Have you ever played Jedi Academy? Seriously? That same scepter did charge hundreds of non-Force users into dark Jedi. Tavion siphoned Force energy from dozens of locations before and after charging some of them. You hardly even came close to proving me wrong.

If Revan killing a bunch of people has nothing to do with Ragnos, then Ragnos ruling over a bunch of people has nothing to do with Revan since it just proves Ragnos is stronger than them, not Revan. Don't bother playing this silly kid's game and debate logically.

Even Nai Fohl says Revan would hold his own against Ragnos. And again, for the too manyth time I've talked to you, read more of my posts and if I think Revan will lose, I don't hesitate to say so.

Your Anakin analogy was nothing like what I say for many many reasons. I list many accomplishments Revan has done, whereas you listed two or so and a bunch of speculation and/or beliefs from people. Next, I have never said Revan will own Ragnos since WE DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT HIM. Look back and see that I have never said Revan will win. It's unfair to both to say that either is stronger. Once more you simply pretend I said things that I didn't. Please stop doing that. Your lack of logic is really starting to bore me.

Illustrious

LMFAO. You here, don't even know what "game mechanics" mean apparently, and you're questioning if I ever played JK:JA. You claimed that the force energy within it was used to charge hundreds of Dark Jedi, and then its suddenly a surprise when it doesn't instakill a Jedi Master.

No, but Ragnos ruling over a bunch of people that have accomplished similar, if not greater feats DOES prove logically he is greater than Revan. Revan has done nothing even remotely impressive as blowing up a star. (And don't even try to use the Starforge argument here).

It means something because Ragnos ruled over the SAME people Revan later found artifacts from.

Nai Fohl's words are not law.

I never said without sarcasm that Revan sucks, or that Ragnos is god. I claim to belive Revan is heavily overrated by individuals LIKE YOU.

You've also made EVERY attempt to peddle your favorite character.

You didn't post anything in the "Ragnos vs. Malak" or the "Ragnos vs. Exar Kun" threads, you have to post it in the REVAN thread because he's your favorite character, and you are a fanboy.

Admit this, and we can move on. You're just in a state of denial.

Oh, so since I didn't monologue out a bunch of individual facts, it has nothing to do with Revan? It was a rough analogy.

I could go into an indepth description of what he did in the CLONE WARS and REVENGE OF THE SITH, but I won't do that because you SHOULD be able to get the point.

Is it honestly that hard to understand?

You're effectively saying that since we know Revan has accomplished Such and Such, he must be stronger than Ragnos. That's a load of crock.

Your fanboyism is starting to annoy me.

I never said Revan was crappy.

You on the other hand said Ragnos DID NOT (not did not to our knowledge) kill anyone other than Simus.

Do you KNOW this? No. You are throwing out wild speculation.

That's what you call lack of logic, get a clue.

xxxpoppunker182

alot of you guys are just ignorant you say that any ancient sith would beat revan with ease. that wouldn't happen. ragnos i do believe to win this fight now due to furthur thinking on the situation. but it ouldn't be like ragnos would just stand there and kill him by blinking.

if you guys want to beleive it or not revan was very powerful and a great duelist. i belive either him or kun is second to in most powerful sith and ragnos to the first but no matter what any of you say it wouldn't be and easy challenege for ragnos.

Emperor Revan

You said it would fry Revan yet it didn't kill Katarn. The putrid smell of more fanboyism.

Oh you seriously got me there. Revan didn't blow up a star with sith magic so he can't be anywhere near the power of a guy who didn't even do it.

Once more you claim I'm a fanboy because I guess you just are too stupid to debate with me and use support so you must call me a fanboy. Yet I post that Revan will lose if I think he will (happens more often than you think) but you said Ragnos would nod and Revan will kill himself. You're a far greater fanboy than I will ever be.

Once more you continually ignore everything I have posted so I'm not gonna bother responding to your next post. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT REVAN WILL BEAT RAGNOS UNLIKE YOU!!!!

That's what you call lack of logic huh? Yet even though Ragnos has only defeated one person we know of and never done anything impressive that might show his power you think he would nod and Revan would kill himself.

Your blatant fanboyism, pretending I've said things when I haven't, constant insulting, and lack of support has bored me too much. I'm here to debate with someone who can do it. Not waste trash with you. So seriously don't even bother responding to this because I'm sick of your lies, fanboyism, and insults and I'm not going to even respond to whatever load of garbage you're gonna say next on this thread.

Emperor Revan

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
alot of you guys are just ignorant you say that any ancient sith would beat revan with ease. that wouldn't happen. ragnos i do believe to win this fight now due to furthur thinking on the situation. but it ouldn't be like ragnos would just stand there and kill him by blinking.

if you guys want to beleive it or not revan was very powerful and a great duelist. i belive either him or kun is second to in most powerful sith and ragnos to the first but no matter what any of you say it wouldn't be and easy challenege for ragnos.

I agree. At the very least it would be a challenge for whoever wins. A certain Retard here has no logic at all and thinks Ragnos can nod and Revan will kill himself. Well said xxxpoppunker.

Illustrious

Do you know what sarcasm is?

Janus says he'd flinch and Sadow and Kressh would mob Revan, even though Sadow and Kressh AREN'T part of his thread.

You claim I'm fanboyism by doing what? Posting sarcasm? Funny.

Did I say because he didn't blow up a star, he isn't as powerful?

No, I said he didn't do a feat AS POWERFUL AS blowing up a star.

None of his accomplishments are as powerful as Sadow's, and Sadow was underneath Ragnos, what does that show? You should figure it out.

You post the same regurgitated shit.

Then you claim I call you a fanboy because I am "too stupid to debate" but then you call me a fanboy.

Wow, hypocrisy, awesome.

No, lack of logic is you saying "he's never done anything impressive".

That's what it is, you're just being silly.

Hahahah.

You've spewed more fanboyism than I have.

YOUR KEY POINT OF THE ARGUMENT is using my SARCASM.

What does that show? LMFAO.

You claim I throw insults, yet you call me a "retard".

So all you've done is show you can argue an argument that NEVER EXISTED, and that you can be a great hypocrite. Good ****ing job.

Illustrious

Yeah, I'm done with this hypocritical moron.

Go chew on some death sticks and peddle your favorite character, fanboy.

Darth_Glentract

DISCLAMER: The following post contain significant amounts of inference.

I'm not going to make a two page post like Emp here, but Ragnos did have Sadow and Kressh bowing to him. Sadow eventually taught Freedon Nadd. Nadd was able to conquer the strongest planet in the Galaxy after being taught by Sadow. He began training with Sadow after he was not allowed to become a Jedi. Freedon died eventually, but his spirit taught Exar. After some training and the help of some Sith Artifacts, Exar killed Freedons apprentice, the student of Sadow.

If you look at this it shows by just the facts, it shows that Exar was more powerful than Freedon Nadd.

If we expand on this a little, we discover that an unsubstantiated(did I spell that right?) theory has been going around stating that Frredon killed Sadow after he completed his training.

Again, if we examine this without by just what is stated, Freedon is more powerful than Sadow.

We have therefor concluded that Nadd is stronger than Sadow and Exar is stronger than Nadd.

Sadow<Nadd<Exar

This would make it probable that Exar and possibly Nadd achieved a greater strength than Ragnos.

Now lets include inference's to the discussion.

Because Sadow being killed by Nadd has never been confirmed, it cannot be called on as evidence. I actually made a theory in the EU section saying that Nihilus may actually be Sadow, thus completely dissipating the thought of Nadd killing him.

Nadd's spirit was killed by Exar, not Nadd himself. It is generally believed that spirits become weaker with time and that they don't have the strength of the corporeal form to begin with.

This cancels out the statement as fact, Sadow<Nadd<Exar

The still may be more powerful though.

Exar has be repeatedly described as more powerful than Revan or Malak.

Nadd has also been stated as much worse than Revan or Malak.

Ragnos was, as you know, feared by Sadow.

Sadow was the second most powerful Sith at the time.
Sadow led his army to many victories against the Republic.
Sadow destroyed a star with a wave of his hand.
Sadow learned from Simus, and expert Sith Alchemist.

We can also infer that if indeed Freedon defeated Sadow, it was not by much and that Sadow would not have feared him. At least not like he feared Ragnos.

Nadd conquered the strongest planet in the galaxy by himself.

Exar also can't stronger than Freedon by much and was not feared by Nadd.

Exar killed a lightsaber grandmaster, Vodo Bass.
Exar destroyed a star.
Exar led a war against the Republic and would have won if not for betrayals at the least minute.
Exar perserved himself for 4000 years.
Exar was chosen by Ragnos to lead the Sith. It is doubtful that he would have chosen him to be be the one to lead it if he had not felt Exar capable of defeating the Republic. Ragnos would have probably wated for someone more capable to lead the Sith against the Republic if he hadn't thought Exar could do it.

Kressh and Sadow were basically equal. Lets put them as 10 points each. This means Ragnos has at least 20 points because Sadow and Kressh didn't try to detrone him.

Assume worst case for Ragnos and this Sadow<Nadd<Exar applies.

With this as the case, Sadow is weaker than Nadd. He did not fear him though or else he would have stopped teaching him.

I personaly would be afraid of someone who is 25% or more bigger than me if I thought they were coming after me.

Sadow didn't fear Nadd, so Nadd isn't going to have more than 12.5 points(10* 1.25= 12.5. Still well below Ragnos. Enough to have Nadd fear him just like Sadow and Kressh.

The same thing applies for Exar and Nadd. Nadd didn't fear Exar or else he would have stopped teaching him. This means Exar can't beat more than 25% more powerful than Nadd.

12.5* 1.25= 15.625

Exar is also afraid of Ragnos.

If Exar is more powerful than Revan, Ragnos must be also, thus stating.

Ragnos>Exar>Nadd>Sadow and Ragnos>Revan

Illustrious

Your inferences are correct in the sense that they work from a theoretical standpoint.

I would agree that Ragnos was likely greater than Revan, from what we can gather.

We know that Simus as a head in a jar, Sadow, and Kressh did not make an attempt to dethrone him.

Also, we can't confirm Nadd killed Sadow, and if it was, it wasn't Sadow at full strength.

The same can be applied to Kun, Kun, while supposedly more powerful than Revan (at least more brute force) killed Nadd with the amulet.

So we can't assume Exar was more powerful than Nadd, as he vanquished his SPIRIT (presumably weaker than his person, with the help of the Sith Amulet).

You're also right, Exar never feared Nadd, Nadd never feared Sadow, but Sadow sure as hell feared Ragnos.

Theoretically, your logic is correct.

However, it's never that simply, to simplify warriors into arbitrary numbers is being silly, and not to mention there will always be at least one person that denies it until he's blue in the face.

Darth_Glentract

Simus was detroned by Ragnos probably before Sadow was even born.

"Also, we can't confirm Nadd killed Sadow, and if it was, it wasn't Sadow at full strength.

The same can be applied to Kun, Kun, while supposedly more powerful than Revan (at least more brute force) killed Nadd with the amulet.

So we can't assume Exar was more powerful than Nadd, as he vanquished his SPIRIT (presumably weaker than his person, with the help of the Sith Amulet)."

I think a addressed that in my post and factored it in.

Illustrious

Simus had apparently taught Sadow a thing or two. So that either means Sadow learned from Mr. Head in a Jar, or Sadow was alive prior to Ragnos dethroning the Sith Magician.

Also, because Simus was the most powerful of his time, and Ragnos defeated him. We can gather this:

Ragnos > Simus > all others of Simus' time.

That like means Ragnos was one of, if not the most powerful, UP until his era.

And like you said, you've factored in the WORST CASE scenario for Ragnos, and he still comes out on top. Good job.

Darth_Glentract

thanks

Darth_Janus

Still cool.

But dude... Ragnos loves his cupcakes. And he would probably fek Revan up. But since you posted in the other thread, everything is pure speculation, neither you, I, or anyone can say with any certainty that he WOULD last more than a few seconds, just the same as we can't say with any degree of certainty that he would last hours.

Arbiter

What Revan are we talking bout?
Post Kotor, during Kotor, or at the end of Kotor?

Darth_Janus

Doesn't matter, really.

Arbiter

I mean we also haven't seen Revan at his best. We may in Kotor 3 but we haven't yet.

Darth_Janus

Like I said, doesn't really matter. You can't argue that Revan at hsi best could be better or worse than anyone since we have absolutely NO information regarding that. For all you know, he could hit his head, go back into amnesialand, and forget all his powers, to live out his life as some space bum.

Apex512

Still arguing over this I see. Revan vs Ragnos is like a Rancor on a Bantha. Ragnos being the Rancor.

Although... Yoda could take Ragnos shifty

Darth_Janus

Actually, Jawas can take Yoda, so now what? lol

Apex512

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Actually, Jawas can take Yoda, so now what? lol

furiousYoda is the wisest, most powerful, smartest, toughest, strongest SW being.

Ahh.. That feels better.

Arbiter

He was joking, hence the lol.

Apex512

Originally posted by Arbiter
He was joking, hence the lol.

jawdropYour point is.

Arbiter

Originally posted by Apex512
furiousYoda is the wisest, most powerful, smartest, toughest, strongest SW being.

Ahh.. That feels better.
You seem piss.

Apex512

Sorry if that's what you thought. Message boards don't really anger me.

Arbiter

ohhhh. Ok.

Illustrious

Emperor Revan seriously has some mental issues.

He goes berserk when I call him a fanboy, but then Janus does the same thing, and he acts like he's trying to squirm into his bed.

STAY F*CKING CONSISTENT.

You're peddling that Revan can BEAT the uber Sith, the one guy that has almost NOTHING to knowledge that can detract his power - save for the skimpy evidence that is "he didn't attack the Republic".

What you're doing IS the purest form of fanboyism -- denying of VALID evidence in an attempt to stack the deck in your favor.

And if that's not enough, you continually repeat the "Ragnos would nod and Revan would kill himself" SARCASM and make it the basis of your personal attack against me.

You lose. And it is that simple.

I don't care if you are in a state of denial, I am done with you.

Darth_Janus

If Darth Windu were here, he'd have something to the effect of "chill". You two need to settle down. It's just Revan and Ragnos, two of the most controversial characters the SW universe has ever known. In particular, Illustrious, you should be satisfied with your victory as it is, and not push the issue. It's not your job to convince every last person of your views, be they correct or not. So my suggestion to both of you is at the very least agree to disagree and don't let this end up any worse that it already has become.

Illustrious

I have no issue with not convincing other people. I have an issue is that when he brings half-speculatory "facts" and opinions, and then I point him out on that, he gets defensive and jumps on his high-horse.

I'll gladly go toe to toe with anyone who wants to reasonably debate the issue, not someone who has so much estrogen hormones they need a tampon.

Human Vader

That touched me Janus, I'm...I'm actually crying.......

Darth_Janus

Originally posted by Human Vader
That touched me Janus, I'm...I'm actually crying.......

No, your eyeballs are sweating. Here, use this TP to wipe them up.

Human Vader

Thank ya.

Darth_Janus

Five bucks.

Hey us jawas live in the desert, man. Five bucks. Don't be a cheapass... I've been wearing the same dishrag for months.

MAKASHIMAN

Ragnos.

Darth_Frobo

excellent support of opinion makashiman your lack of evidence reasons or intelligence has really convinced me ragnos would win,who needs proof or logic when you can just say ragnos it's not like you need to read the sticky at the top of the forum that tells you not to do exactly what you just did. Congratulations the sheer lack of intelligence and proof have truly convinced me ragnos would win ~end sarcastic rant~

DarthGenises

Ragnos, he struck fear into the heart of Naga Sadow a man who chucked stars at people for a living. That is one of the reasons I believe him to be the most powerful Force user of all time.

Darth_Frobo

hmm interesting, so your saying because someone who actually was powerful was afraid of him he'd win? Do you know if his fear was justified?do you know that ragnos didn't just pull a mind trick on him?does anyone know what force powers he possesed?do we know his potential? do we know what he's accomplished in combat or who he's fought? how much force knowledge did he have?

Lets see, we know absolutley nothing about ragnos once so ever except his spirit getting pwned by an average jedi. As for the whole he scared people thing where does that leave us? So he scared people, do we know that he didn't just manipulate them like sids or with the force? do we know that fear was justified? until you can answer at least half those questions just let this thread die.

DarthGenises

so far all we know about him is his reign went unchallenged his whole life, he has defeated a Sith Magician without killing him I believe. And partially conqured the known galaxy.

Darth_Frobo

he ruled a couple planets which is less then revan did, revan defeated hundreds if not thousands of jedi so a sith magician is no big deal, as for going unchallenged it was manipulation not power.

DarthGenises

Yet you have no proof, all you have is opinion like everybody else here

Illustrious

You're partially correct.

Manipulation not power though, is just plain wrong.

Manipulation is what Sidious did, notice how he SURROUNDED HIMSELF with powerful individuals, and wiped out his main threat (the Jedi).

What did Ragnos do? He ruled for LONGER than Sidious did, while surrounded by the height of the Sith Empire. You'd think that after all that time, the great Empire of the Sith would produce someone that could knock Ragnos off, right? Never happened.

As for fear not being justified. What figures that his fear WASN'T justified?

You seem to hold a bias against him because you love Revan, or because his "spirit got owned by an average Jedi".

How does hundreds if not thousands of Jedi mean killing a Sith Magician is no big deal?

What does a Sith Magician, in this case Simus, have to do with the thousands of Jedi Revan killed? NOTHING.

That's like saying "Anakin killed dozens of younglings, he must be more powerful than Yoda."

The younglings don't necessary stack up to Yoda, in fact, we KNOW they don't stack up to Yoda.

Simus was considered the most powerful of his time, and he trained Sadow, likely being the source of where Sadow learned to hurl stars. Simus could keep his head alive in a jar by Sith Magic, and prolonging life is a legendary ability only a few Sith, if any, have.

Basically, you're using argument of ignorance simply because you have nothing better to add. That's both logical fallacy and not necessarily true.

DarthGenises

Are you talking about me?

Illustrious

Both of you.

Darth Abominus

this has been done in the past, it was revan and bastilla vs ragnos.

the general concensus was that ragnos would win - give it a rest.

Darth L. Dipsit

Dude, that's your first post since June!

Darth Abominus

was on vacation in Lithuania, came back not long ago wink

Darth L. Dipsit

No, I know - it's good to have you back!

Darth Abominus

thanks!

Darth_Frobo

Originally posted by Illustrious
You're partially correct.

Manipulation not power though, is just plain wrong.

Manipulation is what Sidious did, notice how he SURROUNDED HIMSELF with powerful individuals, and wiped out his main threat (the Jedi).

What did Ragnos do? He ruled for LONGER than Sidious did, while surrounded by the height of the Sith Empire. You'd think that after all that time, the great Empire of the Sith would produce someone that could knock Ragnos off, right? Never happened.

As for fear not being justified. What figures that his fear WASN'T justified?

You seem to hold a bias against him because you love Revan, or because his "spirit got owned by an average Jedi".

How does hundreds if not thousands of Jedi mean killing a Sith Magician is no big deal?

What does a Sith Magician, in this case Simus, have to do with the thousands of Jedi Revan killed? NOTHING.

That's like saying "Anakin killed dozens of younglings, he must be more powerful than Yoda."

The younglings don't necessary stack up to Yoda, in fact, we KNOW they don't stack up to Yoda.

Simus was considered the most powerful of his time, and he trained Sadow, likely being the source of where Sadow learned to hurl stars. Simus could keep his head alive in a jar by Sith Magic, and prolonging life is a legendary ability only a few Sith, if any, have.

Basically, you're using argument of ignorance simply because you have nothing better to add. That's both logical fallacy and not necessarily true.

If he went unchallenged because those who could were to busy fighting each other because of his manipulation does it truly say anything about his power, in fact his having to manipulate others to fight each other shows that he was doubtful he could win. Manipulating others into fighting each other or into not fighting you isn't a sign of power it's a sign of cowardice. If you wonder where I got such info I can give you a couple websites all I need to do is remember them lol.

As for my jedi killing arguement you obviously have no clue what I said, If Revan can take tons of jedi/sith knights what challenge would a single sith magician be? so he extended his natural life big deal even the crappiest jedi can enter themselves into a healing trance which will repair damage done by among other things aging. Sadow was ragnos's pupil not simus's and the only reason he could do what he did was through a sceptre filled with sith magics not by any power of his own.

As for his long rule going "unchallenged" it's pretty easy to go unchallenged when everyone who could put up a fight to you is killing one another instead because you're a lying manipulative SOB. what shows that the fear wasn't justified is that ragnos never fought anyone himself he merely manipulated them into fighting someone else who was stronger. He's no better then sidious he fought once in his life against someone who didn't even have the force and he's hailed as a God around here, why? is it because he outsmarted some sith? is it because someone powerful was afraid of him, many people around the world are afraid of george bush not because of his skill in battle but because of the ressources at his disposal because of what he has at his back. If ragnos could manipulate the sith empire into following him then what would be the point of attacking him if he has the entire empire at his back? he could merely find out about it before hand and have said individual executed as a traitor. The sith probably weren't afraid of ragnos as much as they were of the ressources at his disposal.

Think of it this way, were the solidiers of the empire truly afraid of palpatine himself and that's why they didn't rebel, nope a single victory class star destroyer has more then enough firepower to deal with him, they were afraid of what he represented not who he was, the hundreds of thousands of ships, the death stars and other super weapons and the millions upon millions of solidiers he was just a face to the power which he assumed not through combat prowness but through manipulation. Ragnos after defeating one magician kept his office through manipulation not through any battle skill, he didn't unite the sith through conquest if he supposedly went unchallenged so that leaves manipulations and diplomacy. Once that was done who would dare challenge the might of the entire sith empire the most powerful dynasty in the galaxy at that time? Like the emperor I don't beleive they were afraid of ragnos as much as the empire he represented.

Oh and where other then wikipedia (which is full of crap) did you see that ragnos went unchallenged.

Emperor Revan

Ah, it does my heart good to see my work continued. Excellent job Frobo, we think quite a bit alike. Our army just doubled!

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
If he went unchallenged because those who could were to busy fighting each other because of his manipulation does it truly say anything about his power, in fact his having to manipulate others to fight each other shows that he was doubtful he could win. Manipulating others into fighting each other or into not fighting you isn't a sign of power it's a sign of cowardice. If you wonder where I got such info I can give you a couple websites all I need to do is remember them lol.

Please. You should read more about Ragnos motivation. He didn't fear getting killed. He feared that the other Sith Lords (there were at least 20 of them in the council below the Dark Lord) would take their own forces and attack the republic space. So he manipulated them into attacking each other and attack him. And why shouldn't they attack him ? That would be like every Jedi in the PT wants to be chancelor and Sidious would be able to make them attack each other instead of attacking him. Really. If Ragnos was able to manipulate them into fighting each other instead of fighting him they must have feared him even in the beginning of his reign.

a)
Even Atton was able to kill dozens of Jedi. That proves what exactly ? The Handmaiden nearly killed Atris. The Exile could waste 4 Sith Knights at once (if you let all the masters in KotoR live and then go darkside on Dantooine you can kill all three masters left AT ONCE) Hell...Sidious killed 3 Jedi Masters in 5 seconds. What does that proof at all ? Nothing.

b)
Simus got his goddamn head cut off by Ragnos. Did you ever see any Jedi stay alive after something like that ?

c)
Sadow was Simus pupel before Ragnos killed Simus.

d)
Ragnos sceptre was only invented for that f*cking game in which we can see a single Jedi Knight that was a padawan a week earlier destroying an entire army of dark siders + the spirit of Ragnos.

See above.

Hell...
Ragnos only commanded the council of Sith Lords (as I said 20 people) around while they all had their own resources and troops. It's like me having the control over 20 generals and each of them having the control over an entire army.
None of them ever tried to challenge Ragnos in an empire in which the strongest one will rule. That only tells you that none of them believed he could take Ragnos. And I'm talking about a duel.

Then Ragnos defeated Simus. And Simus was known to be the most powerful Sith magician in that time. Just to tell you that: It was Sith Magic that Sadow used to blow up stars it was Sith magic Exar Kun used to freeze the entire Senate (including serveral Jedi) and "Sith Lightning" is also Sith magic. Now Simus was more powerful than Sadow and Kun and Ragnos killed him. That is not impressive ? Oh...what is than ?
Not to mention that Ragnos lived in an enviroment in which civil wars and duels were normal events. To tell he never participated in any duels or wars before he took the title of the Dark Lord is simply out of any logic.

And if they only feared Ragnos because of his resources you can surely tell me why people like Sadow, Kressh, Exar Kun and Ulic Quel-Droma were even afraid of Ragnos SPIRIT ?

You know that there were Rebellions against Palpatine. One was initiated by one of Palpatines grand-admirals (stoped by Thrawn) and another Rebellion - the Rebellion - led to the fall of Sidious Empire. Sidious was challenged despite of all the resources he had. Ragnos wasn't. Now...what does that tell you ?

And Sidious was only able to survive as Emperor for 23 years in a galaxy filled with scared and peaceful beings while Ragnos survived as Dark Lord for more than a century in an Empire filled with badass force users that all wanted to get his title.

Just again for that manipulation stuff: How you manipulate people into not doing things and following rules that are the basement of their 25,000 year old culture ?

That is just logic. Kressh and Sadow were the only two people who dared to take the title as a dark lord after Ragnos died. So either Ragnos defeated all people that challenged him or nobody dared to challenge him. Is that important ?

Illustrious

You have to understand the circumstances. This isn't like Sidious.

Sidious had 1 Sith Lord to worry about, he had practically no Jedi, and was surrounded by a horde of loyal individuals that wielded great political and technological power. Ragnos was surrounded by dozens of Sith Warriors on Korriban, at any given time, he could be stabbed in the back. But no one dared to do that, and if they did, he fought them off. That's a pretty simple assessment.

That's silly. "Anakin can kill a bunch of younglings; what challenge would Obi-Wan be?"

When that "Sith Magician" is Simus, and considered the most powerful of the Sith at the HEIGHT OF THE SITH Empire, he obviously would be pretty powerful. Take the Jedi Order at its peak, and find the most powerful member of it, and I'll bet you he/she is pretty strong, got it?

Simus taught Sadow, and Sadow was a not to shabby Dark Lord himself, and he was scared by Ragnos. Ragnos beat Simus and Simus had to keep his head in a jar. He was so immersed in Sith Magic, he could live with just a head in a jar. How many people do YOU know that can survive after decapitation.

You're being silly. The Sith Empire has a policy of the strongest will rule. He surrounded himself with talented individuals. Be it the council, Sadow, or Kressh, he could have been attacked at practically any time. He didn't build himself a Death Star and handpick a few followers like a certain Dark Lord did. If he could manipulate all the Sith in the Empire to not attack him, I'd bet he could manipulate Revan into not attacking him. You're grossly underrating the difficulty of being a Dark Lord at the height of the Sith Empire, hence why NO ONE ELSE has done it.

*Cough* Argument of Ignorance *cough*.

This is the one thing I've never failed to see a Revan fanboy say: "We don't know if Ragnos fought anyone else, therefore he DID NOT!"

Did Yoda not fight much in his long life, if we go by the movies, we only know he fought 2 times, once against Dooku and once against Sidious. If you add a bit of EU, you could say he sparred against Mace and fought a Dark Jedi on Dagobah. Does that mean he DIDN'T fight?

Ragnos information is scarce, but he lived for over a century at the height of an empire that was torn apart after his death because of the void he left. If you believe there is no one that will attack you, you're very naive, and probably wouldn't last long as Dark Lord yourself wink

.

Who did he fight once in his life that didn't "even have the force".

This just exemplifies ignorance.

George Bush has the ability to fight any nation in the world, he has a more powerful military and more nuclear weapons than practically anyone. People fear him because of his power.

However, in the Sith Empire, you fight with SWORDS, you attack each other with the force and your dueling abilities. People would naturally fear Ragnos because of his power, in what? The force and his dueling ability.

Yet somehow, the same logic doesn't apply to any other Sith. Interesting you'd mention that. Thanks for letting us all know that you're willing to concede he's the greatest manipulator ever just so you don't have to admit he may be greater than your favorite character.

Oh, it doesn't matter that he's described as having immense physical strength and an incredible grasp on the force, he's a manipulator, not a fighter, right?

Oh it doesn't matter he fought to grab the thrown and then protected it for over a century, he must have had everyone else fight everyone else, and never had anyone attack him, right? Wow, he pulled a fast one over the entire Sith Empire.

By that moniker, everyone's afraid of what they represent. The Republic wasn't afraid of Revan, but rather what he represented. The Republic wasn't afraid of Kun, it was what he represented. They weren't afraid of the Sith at the Battle of Ruusan, it was what they represented, right? Pssh.

You have to EARN fear, just like you have to EARN respect.

Again, argument in ignorance.

You don't know who Ragnos fought, so that means Ragnos didn't fight. A great point for those people who want to claim individuals were stronger than Ragnos, but one that hardly works.

EXACTLY.

How are you comparing Sidious to Ragnos? Ragnos existed on a scale FAR larger than Sidious. Sidious didn't have to worry about force users that can blow up stars and planets on his way to the Kwik-E-Mart.

Darth_Frobo

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Please. You should read more about Ragnos motivation. He didn't fear getting killed. He feared that the other Sith Lords (there were at least 20 of them in the council below the Dark Lord) would take their own forces and attack the republic space. So he manipulated them into attacking each other and attack him. And why shouldn't they attack him ? That would be like every Jedi in the PT wants to be chancelor and Sidious would be able to make them attack each other instead of attacking him. Really. If Ragnos was able to manipulate them into fighting each other instead of fighting him they must have feared him even in the beginning of his reign.

a)
Even Atton was able to kill dozens of Jedi. That proves what exactly ? The Handmaiden nearly killed Atris. The Exile could waste 4 Sith Knights at once (if you let all the masters in KotoR live and then go darkside on Dantooine you can kill all three masters left AT ONCE) Hell...Sidious killed 3 Jedi Masters in 5 seconds. What does that proof at all ? Nothing.

b)
Simus got his goddamn head cut off by Ragnos. Did you ever see any Jedi stay alive after something like that ?

c)
Sadow was Simus pupel before Ragnos killed Simus.

d)
Ragnos sceptre was only invented for that f*cking game in which we can see a single Jedi Knight that was a padawan a week earlier destroying an entire army of dark siders + the spirit of Ragnos.

See above.

Hell...
Ragnos only commanded the council of Sith Lords (as I said 20 people) around while they all had their own resources and troops. It's like me having the control over 20 generals and each of them having the control over an entire army.
None of them ever tried to challenge Ragnos in an empire in which the strongest one will rule. That only tells you that none of them believed he could take Ragnos. And I'm talking about a duel.

Then Ragnos defeated Simus. And Simus was known to be the most powerful Sith magician in that time. Just to tell you that: It was Sith Magic that Sadow used to blow up stars it was Sith magic Exar Kun used to freeze the entire Senate (including serveral Jedi) and "Sith Lightning" is also Sith magic. Now Simus was more powerful than Sadow and Kun and Ragnos killed him. That is not impressive ? Oh...what is than ?
Not to mention that Ragnos lived in an enviroment in which civil wars and duels were normal events. To tell he never participated in any duels or wars before he took the title of the Dark Lord is simply out of any logic.

And if they only feared Ragnos because of his resources you can surely tell me why people like Sadow, Kressh, Exar Kun and Ulic Quel-Droma were even afraid of Ragnos SPIRIT ?

You know that there were Rebellions against Palpatine. One was initiated by one of Palpatines grand-admirals (stoped by Thrawn) and another Rebellion - the Rebellion - led to the fall of Sidious Empire. Sidious was challenged despite of all the resources he had. Ragnos wasn't. Now...what does that tell you ?

And Sidious was only able to survive as Emperor for 23 years in a galaxy filled with scared and peaceful beings while Ragnos survived as Dark Lord for more than a century in an Empire filled with badass force users that all wanted to get his title.

Just again for that manipulation stuff: How you manipulate people into not doing things and following rules that are the basement of their 25,000 year old culture ?

That is just logic. Kressh and Sadow were the only two people who dared to take the title as a dark lord after Ragnos died. So either Ragnos defeated all people that challenged him or nobody dared to challenge him. Is that important ?

Please tell me where you got your info on ragnos because I find it interesting however,

Sidious manipulated the entire republic and jedi order who were actually looking for a sith threat at the time to fight the only other force that would cause him any grief (the cis) as well as the jedi. What says that ragnos couldn't have done something similiar. You say that he manipulated others into fighting him yet you also say that he went unchallenged your contradicting yourself did he or did he not go unvhallenged during his reign, if he did then it was because he was a manipulative bastard because if the sith wanted him out they could have banded together with their forces and taken him, or had him assasinated, or started some form of rebellion. If Palpatine's empire was so much insanely more powerful then Ragnos's (which it was) and it went challenged by a force much smaller then it then logically one insanely powerful sith lord would try at one point or another unless he was being manipulated not to which as said before would be cowardice.

Or he was challenged which shows that he wasn't that feared and was beleived that he could be beaten. Even if he did manipulate others into fighting him then he would only manipulate those weaker then he was into fighting him and as he never manipulated sadow or kresh knowing they both wanted to take on the republic that leads me to one of two conclusions

1. He was weaker then they were despite them being his apprentices and he was manipulating them to keep them from fighting him.

2.he manipulated them to serve him because he was scared if there was a revolt of some form he'd be screwed.

He may have manipulated a council of twenty sith lords, just because they didn't beleive they could doesn't mean they couldn't have been manipulated i.e too busy fighting each other or ragnos kept them under his control for one of the above two reasons.

As for your point about the sceptre not only did you prove my point about the weakness of ragnos (even if the game was dumb it was part of eu and is considered cannon here) as he gets owned it also shows that his sceptre was the only way his apprentices could do what they did which means they're not as great as they're all made out to be here including ragnos.

As for the duels, we don't know but going by ragnos's manipulative nature he could have weaseled his way out and we also don't know the caliber of those he fought except for simus so that's pretty much null.

Finally we come to simus. so he was powerful, the power of the force is still greater and it's called force lightning for a reason they may have used magic at the time but the force is ultimatley greater. Even considering that simus was a powerful magician how do we know if he was a great duelist or not what do we know about his saber skills...jack all so we can't really know if he was that good. Revan defeated malak who was drawing on the greatest artifact of a darkside/drawing on a sun for power.

The only place we know anything about ragnos is force powers and he didn't have nearly the ressources Revan did and Revan learned everything possible from those ressources.

Darth_Janus

Let it go guys.... ragnos fekkin' pwns...

Darth_Frobo

Illustrious:

half of that post was hypocritical the other half just plain wrong.

You along with the rest of the ragnos lovers have been saying that ragnos went unchallenged for nearly a centruy and then you complain to me when i use that to my advantage, then you top it all off by saying how he was surrounded by sith at all times who could've stabbed him in the back but didn't so obviously the strongest didn't rule if Ragnos could have been so easily killed right? So if they refused to challenge him and they're the only ones that possibly could wouldn't that mean that he didn't fight anyone? please try to use logic.

And what I was saying was that because he has the ressources of the sith empire at his back they weren't as much afraid of him as they were afraid of the army of force users and solidiers at his back, if someone has twenty armies of sith behind him then you don't attack him they were probably more worried about his thousands of solidiers then ragnos as an individual. As for my george bush statement people aren't afraid of geaorge bush once so ever they're afraid of the armies at his back just like with ragnos, if the sith wanted him gone they would have at least tried.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Finally we come to simus. so he was powerful, the power of the force is still greater and it's called force lightning for a reason they may have used magic at the time but the force is ultimatley greater. Even considering that simus was a powerful magician how do we know if he was a great duelist or not what do we know about his saber skills...jack all so we can't really know if he was that good. Revan defeated malak who was drawing on the greatest artifact of a darkside/drawing on a sun for power.

The only place we know anything about ragnos is force powers and he didn't have nearly the ressources Revan did and Revan learned everything possible from those ressources.

I am just going to talk about this, the rest of I don't have time for right now.

You have made several false assuptions. The first one is that Sith Magic and force lightning are different things. They are one and the same, I assure you. They are two different forms of the same thing. There are different techniques used for each, but they draw power from the same energy.

The Star Forge is not the greatest artifact of the darkside. Drawing on a star for power idsn't that great. Sadow was able to destroy a star by waving his hands. If you read the comic, he literaly waves his hands and then the star is destroyed.

All Malak was getting from the Star Forge was force immunity. He got the extra energy from the captured Jedi, Corran Horn could do the same thing in theory.

All though it can't be completly explained in accordance with the rest of SW, we can make a theory on how Ragnos lost to Jaden.

As a SPIRIT, he was doing the following things; powering an army of force users, attempthing to regenerate his body, and using the body of a regular person.

It is gerenally thought that spirits lose their power over time. Ragnos was 5000 years old by now. Pretty much no one else could survive this long. Like stated above, he powered an army of force users comparable to Luke's entire Academy.

He was forced to use the body of a weak Cult Member. Her body probably breaking down because of the energy imput. It killed her in only a few minutes. It like having an ocean of power, but only having a McDonald's straw to use the power with.

Illustrious

When did I ever say this? I said he was surrounded by the height of the Sith Empire. It was far likely than not that a challenger would come for the throne. Because regardless of anything else, the one thing a Sith wants most is to be the Dark Lord. I'm saying you're ASSUMING that Ragnos didn't fight anyone because you didn't know he fought anyone. That's BS.

It's simple. In an army, you have X number of people pointed towards ONE goal. In the Sith Empire, you have X number of people all having selfish intentions. There's a LOT of differences between an army and the Sith Empire. Hell, even if we were to take your army analogy, there has been plenty of political leaders that were deposed by their army generals.

How did he become more powerful than all the Sith force users than? Because he had magic. Magic is what Kun used with the amulets, its what Sadow used to blow up stars. Sith Magic and force are practically one and the same, you still need to be force sensitive to use the occult "magic".

Darth_Frobo

It's been repeatedly said in this thread and in others, "Ragnos was so powerful that in a time of ancient sith lords no one dared challenge him." Many many many times it's probably been said more then anything else on this forum.

As for the empire he manipulated them into serving him the forces at his command were either being manipulated or supported ragnos and would assist him in a war both scenarios don't say much for him. As you said many armies have made coups on their political leaders, if they wanted to get rid of him they would have launched a coup and the only reason they wouldn't want to is if they were too busy worrying about each other or being manipulated not to, there's twenty sith lords with freakin armies that could attack ragnos that's more then enough to take him.

Emperor Revan

Darth Frobo has a great point here. Not only does Kreia say that Ragnos manipulated his enemies into fighting each other, but right after Ragnos died, Sadow manipulated them into declaring him their dark lord. That tells me once Ragnos defeated Simus (who by the way, where do you guys hear that he was "the greatest Sith magician ever"?) Ragnos became ruler of the Sith. Obviously if Sadow manipulated them in one day, Ragnos wouldn't have had a problem with it.

Now out of every other Sith, how many actually try and usurp their masters by simple fighting. No one I can think of at the moment. Most simply took orders without question. Sidious killed his master in his sleep, Ulic and Malak betrayed their masters from afar, and Sion had help from Nihilus. So I hate to say, all other evidence seems to show that Sith do not usually challenge their superiors for power in a simple fight, herego Ragnos did not fight nearly as much as people think.

Next, Ragnos had supporters. If everyone hated him why was his funeral such a big deal and no one knew what to do without him? Like I said before, most Sith took their orders from superiors without question, and if he's the head of the Sith empire, his army would be greater than any other sith resistance.

Now Ragnos lovers also love to say Sadow and everyone feared him. Where did that come from? I've never heard any source say that everyone feared him. So Sadow didn't attack him, he simply was smart about and waited until after Ragnos' death and played off their confusion. Sadow wanted the Sith to bow before him, and to have the Sith fight the Republic (remember the Sith LOST, even thought they were far wealthier and in possession of bizzare technology, he could blow up stars, had a form of battle meditation, and they still lost to a Republic Revan conquered with half the army it had, Against battle meditation no less, and it was far more Revan's tactics than the Star Forge.) Even at the height of the Sith empire you people praise, and all those Sith lords you claim were so powerful, they still lost yet Revan succeeded with only one other Sith.

Now obviously Sadow wanted control of the Sith so it makes perfect sense for him not to try and kill Ragnos prematurely, the Sith would've hated that. And no, I don't think Sadow feared him, especially if he could simply wave his hand and blow up the nearest star and obliterate the entire solar system.

The next thing, Ragnos lovers continually say everyone feared Ragnos' spirit. Where do they get that conclusion? Neither Sadow nor Kressh bothered to listen to Sadow. Ragnos' spirit announced Kun the dark lord later on so you think Kun feared him? Jaden didn't fear his power, why would Kun or Sadow?

And lastly, the binary star Sadow destroyed was unstable anyway. Ragnos wasn't even the one to do it anyway. Oh but you say he can, yet everyone else can't?

We don't have nearly enough info on Ragnos to try and gauge his power, but even assuming he's way stronger than all others (not accusing you Nai Fohl) is fanboyish.

Darth Janus: You know I like you, and I'm not trying to be mean, but you called me a fanboy earlier. Yet, I'm here with Frobo defending my position while you've simply sat there saying he's the most powerful and we shouldn't even bother trying. That's pretty fanboyish to me.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Emperor Revan

Now Ragnos lovers also love to say Sadow and everyone feared him. Where did that come from? I've never heard any source say that everyone feared him. So Sadow didn't attack him, he simply was smart about and waited until after Ragnos' death and played off their confusion. Sadow wanted the Sith to bow before him, and to have the Sith fight the Republic (remember the Sith LOST, even thought they were far wealthier and in possession of bizzare technology, he could blow up stars, had a form of battle meditation, and they still lost to a Republic Revan conquered with half the army it had, Against battle meditation no less, and it was far more Revan's tactics than the Star Forge.) Even at the height of the Sith empire you people praise, and all those Sith lords you claim were so powerful, they still lost yet Revan succeeded with only one other Sith.

Now obviously Sadow wanted control of the Sith so it makes perfect sense for him not to try and kill Ragnos prematurely, the Sith would've hated that. And no, I don't think Sadow feared him, especially if he could simply wave his hand and blow up the nearest star and obliterate the entire solar system.

The next thing, Ragnos lovers continually say everyone feared Ragnos' spirit. Where do they get that conclusion? Neither Sadow nor Kressh bothered to listen to Sadow. Ragnos' spirit announced Kun the dark lord later on so you think Kun feared him? Jaden didn't fear his power, why would Kun or Sadow?

And lastly, the binary star Sadow destroyed was unstable anyway. Ragnos wasn't even the one to do it anyway. Oh but you say he can, yet everyone else can't?

Revan did not suceed in destroying the Republic. He lost because he was betrayed, just like Kun.

You aren't taking into account Sith Culture. The strongest rule. In our society, if Bin Laden killed Bush tomorrow, Osama would not become the leader of the US. In Sith society, he would. Ragnos was also a half-blood and those were hated back then. Killing Ragnos would have gotten Sadow some serious support.

What does Ragnos' spirit making Exar the DLOS have to do with Exar being afraid of him. It does show that Ulic was afraid of him. Ulic is not a pushover. He could take Malak for sure and even give Revan a hard time. If we look at that in simple terms, it shows
Ragnos spirt>Ulic
Ulic>Malak
Ulic<Revan
Ragnos spirit?Revan

Assuming that spirits are much weaker than the actual person, Ragnos must be better than Ulic, who is close to Exar. Exar has already destroyed Nadd's spirit by this point.

If we assume that spirits aren't much weaker than the real person, then Exar has just gained a ton of status with me. If the spirit is about equal, Exar at probably around 2/3 of his strength when fighting Ulic, defeated a very powerful Sith Lord. Either way is testament to Ragnos' strength.

Emperor Revan

Glentract: Revan had the Republic fleet decimated, the Jedi numbered at about a hundred, and then he simply left.

yes, but if someone killed Bin Laden, they would become the leader would they not? That doesn't happen because they are manipulated by him, and fear what might happen.

Who made up this crap that people hate half-breeds? Seriously where does everyone hear this? They gave him a giant funeral and no one killed him in a century? If they hated him they would've banded togther, and destroyed him or Sadow would've simply destroyed the solar system. If they hated him, Ragnos wouldn't have lasted a month.

Next, Ulic barely knew anything about the Sith. If a spirit suddenly came out of nowhere of some weird creature, it might freak me out too. I don't think Ragnos' spirit could beat Ulic when after it was charged with enough Force energy to power an army of non-Force users to dark Jedi capable of using several different powers, he couldn't even beat Jaden?

I also don't think Ulic's as powerful as Malak but I must admit, I don't know a whole lot about him, except from what Lord Darkstar posts.

Revan destroyed Ajunta Pall's spirit (who came from an earlier time than Ragnos) with ease before getting far, far stronger. I would say his power easily tripled in that time but I'm too lazy to list why at the moment. A quick sum, he was paralyzed by Malak on the Leviathan not long after, than after more and more fighting, Revan ploughed through dozens of Sith apprenitces, assassin droids, and Malak's 3 most powerful dark Jedi with only Bastila and a non-Force user with him. Then he defeats Malak twice in a row who also said he's stronger than his previous reign now, and after that he recovers his full memories including knowledge he plundered from the Jedi, Korriban and especiall Malachor V which is a planet sized sith storehouse of knowledge. And we all know how much lust Revan had for knowledge.

Darth_Janus

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Darth Frobo has a great point here. Not only does Kreia say that Ragnos manipulated his enemies into fighting each other, but right after Ragnos died, Sadow manipulated them into declaring him their dark lord. That tells me once Ragnos defeated Simus (who by the way, where do you guys hear that he was "the greatest Sith magician ever"?) Ragnos became ruler of the Sith. Obviously if Sadow manipulated them in one day, Ragnos wouldn't have had a problem with it.

Now out of every other Sith, how many actually try and usurp their masters by simple fighting. No one I can think of at the moment. Most simply took orders without question. Sidious killed his master in his sleep, Ulic and Malak betrayed their masters from afar, and Sion had help from Nihilus. So I hate to say, all other evidence seems to show that Sith do not usually challenge their superiors for power in a simple fight, herego Ragnos did not fight nearly as much as people think.

Next, Ragnos had supporters. If everyone hated him why was his funeral such a big deal and no one knew what to do without him? Like I said before, most Sith took their orders from superiors without question, and if he's the head of the Sith empire, his army would be greater than any other sith resistance.

Now Ragnos lovers also love to say Sadow and everyone feared him. Where did that come from? I've never heard any source say that everyone feared him. So Sadow didn't attack him, he simply was smart about and waited until after Ragnos' death and played off their confusion. Sadow wanted the Sith to bow before him, and to have the Sith fight the Republic (remember the Sith LOST, even thought they were far wealthier and in possession of bizzare technology, he could blow up stars, had a form of battle meditation, and they still lost to a Republic Revan conquered with half the army it had, Against battle meditation no less, and it was far more Revan's tactics than the Star Forge.) Even at the height of the Sith empire you people praise, and all those Sith lords you claim were so powerful, they still lost yet Revan succeeded with only one other Sith.

Now obviously Sadow wanted control of the Sith so it makes perfect sense for him not to try and kill Ragnos prematurely, the Sith would've hated that. And no, I don't think Sadow feared him, especially if he could simply wave his hand and blow up the nearest star and obliterate the entire solar system.

The next thing, Ragnos lovers continually say everyone feared Ragnos' spirit. Where do they get that conclusion? Neither Sadow nor Kressh bothered to listen to Sadow. Ragnos' spirit announced Kun the dark lord later on so you think Kun feared him? Jaden didn't fear his power, why would Kun or Sadow?

And lastly, the binary star Sadow destroyed was unstable anyway. Ragnos wasn't even the one to do it anyway. Oh but you say he can, yet everyone else can't?

We don't have nearly enough info on Ragnos to try and gauge his power, but even assuming he's way stronger than all others (not accusing you Nai Fohl) is fanboyish.

Darth Janus: You know I like you, and I'm not trying to be mean, but you called me a fanboy earlier. Yet, I'm here with Frobo defending my position while you've simply sat there saying he's the most powerful and we shouldn't even bother trying. That's pretty fanboyish to me.

Don't toss that term around too casually. There's a fine line between what I represent in this argument and what you represent. A fanboy is someone who goes above and beyond the call of fan duty to defend someone, using circular reasoning, personal insults, or other's help generally. I've simply made up my mind and that's that. I don't run around saying Ragnos pwns all. I don't have a ragnos sig or avatar. I don't even bring the guy up unless there's a damn good reason.

If I was a fanboy for Ragnos in this case, I would be attacking every single thing you guys say, totally undermining it, even if it is logically superior. I would totally ignore all other points. I would not realize that the argument went against me long ago. And I would only post on Ragnos threads. It's that simple.

Now, you're not the worst person on the earth to me because I consider you a Revan fanboy... You're just typically very wrong in any argument against Revan. Now next year, KOTOR III, Revan could very well reach levels of amazing power. Who knows? But Revan as we know him can't beat Ragnos, and this futile attempt to detract from that argument and attack Ragnos' credibility with a bunch of twisted words and bad logic isn't gonna change anyone's mind.

Now, since evidence is scarce on both sides, what we do know favors Ragnos way over Revan. It also sets him up there with the elite Sith of all time. And since an elite ancient Sith is stronger for aggressive Force power (and most likely fighting skill) than any jedi paragon, the idea is ragnos is the heaviest hitter in the land until proven otherwise.

Darth_Janus

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Glentract: Revan had the Republic fleet decimated, the Jedi numbered at about a hundred, and then he simply left.

yes, but if someone killed Bin Laden, they would become the leader would they not? That doesn't happen because they are manipulated by him, and fear what might happen.

Who made up this crap that people hate half-breeds? Seriously where does everyone hear this? They gave him a giant funeral and no one killed him in a century? If they hated him they would've banded togther, and destroyed him or Sadow would've simply destroyed the solar system. If they hated him, Ragnos wouldn't have lasted a month.

Next, Ulic barely knew anything about the Sith. If a spirit suddenly came out of nowhere of some weird creature, it might freak me out too. I don't think Ragnos' spirit could beat Ulic when after it was charged with enough Force energy to power an army of non-Force users to dark Jedi capable of using several different powers, he couldn't even beat Jaden?

I also don't think Ulic's as powerful as Malak but I must admit, I don't know a whole lot about him, except from what Lord Darkstar posts.

Revan destroyed Ajunta Pall's spirit (who came from an earlier time than Ragnos) with ease before getting far, far stronger. I would say his power easily tripled in that time but I'm too lazy to list why at the moment. A quick sum, he was paralyzed by Malak on the Leviathan not long after, than after more and more fighting, Revan ploughed through dozens of Sith apprenitces, assassin droids, and Malak's 3 most powerful dark Jedi with only Bastila and a non-Force user with him. Then he defeats Malak twice in a row who also said he's stronger than his previous reign now, and after that he recovers his full memories including knowledge he plundered from the Jedi, Korriban and especiall Malachor V which is a planet sized sith storehouse of knowledge. And we all know how much lust Revan had for knowledge.

PS... Kreia said that halfbreeds were reviled.

Emperor Revan

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Don't toss that term around too casually. There's a fine line between what I represent in this argument and what you represent. A fanboy is someone who goes above and beyond the call of fan duty to defend someone, using circular reasoning, personal insults, or other's help generally. I've simply made up my mind and that's that. I don't run around saying Ragnos pwns all. I don't have a ragnos sig or avatar. I don't even bring the guy up unless there's a damn good reason.

If I was a fanboy for Ragnos in this case, I would be attacking every single thing you guys say, totally undermining it, even if it is logically superior. I would totally ignore all other points. I would not realize that the argument went against me long ago. And I would only post on Ragnos threads. It's that simple.

Now, you're not the worst person on the earth to me because I consider you a Revan fanboy... You're just typically very wrong in any argument against Revan. Now next year, KOTOR III, Revan could very well reach levels of amazing power. Who knows? But Revan as we know him can't beat Ragnos, and this futile attempt to detract from that argument and attack Ragnos' credibility with a bunch of twisted words and bad logic isn't gonna change anyone's mind.

Now, since evidence is scarce on both sides, what we do know favors Ragnos way over Revan. It also sets him up there with the elite Sith of all time. And since an elite ancient Sith is stronger for aggressive Force power (and most likely fighting skill) than any jedi paragon, the idea is ragnos is the heaviest hitter in the land until proven otherwise.

It's funny you said all this, I'm not any of the things you mentioned except perhaps the first one. I have always defended my position whereas here you just say Ragnos is the strongest, that's a fact, and nothing can change my mind right now. IMO that's fanboyism. Ragnos is not proven to be the strongest, even Illustrious says that. And if he was, why is he barely mentioned on Star Wars sites and why do none of them even comment on his power?

Maybe I'm very wrong to you, but Fishy often agrees with me on the Revan situation. Bunch of twisted words and bad logic? We barely know anything about him yet you just think he's the most powerful, won't post any reasons why, and won't change your mind. You don't even try to counter all the reasons Frobo and I have come up with. If anything is logical, it would be for Revan since he has far more accomplishments and more impressive ones. Yes, I still think you're a fanboy for Ragnos, and yes, I still admit I'm a little defensive towards Revan, I never denied it. But it doesn't interfere with how I rate his power either. If I think he'll lose, I don't hesitate to post it.

As for your P.S. I remember she called him a half breed but I'm pretty sure (not 100%) that she didn't say all Sith hated them.

Darth_Glentract

"PS... Kreia said that halfbreeds were reviled."

and Kreia has never once lied. JK. But still, what reason does she have to lie about that.

Apex512

Is the Jawa party crumbling, the darkside will do that you know.

Darth_Glentract

When Revan almost destroyed the Republic army, it had been severaly hurt by the Mandalorians only a few years earlier. It had also been severaly weakened by Exar's attack only forty years earlier.

Emperor Revan

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
"PS... Kreia said that halfbreeds were reviled."

and Kreia has never once lied. JK. But still, what reason does she have to lie about that.

Good point, I actually do remember her saying something on those lines come to think of it. I'll try and play that part sometime and get back to you on that.

Emperor Revan

The Republic was hurt by Kun's forces, but Revan's 1/3 of the Republic army was what fought the Mandalorians, and he took the remnants of that against which would be less than half of the Republic's forces. Obviously the Star Forge did help some, but when you listen to the Jedi masters, they all credit the war to Revan, not the Star Forge. Without Bastila, the Republic would've lost.

Illustrious

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
When Revan almost destroyed the Republic army, it had been severaly hurt by the Mandalorians only a few years earlier. It had also been severaly weakened by Exar's attack only forty years earlier.

That's true, but it's true with practically any dictator. They have to come in a time of weakness, as its almost impossible to upset a stable balance by ones own accord.

Darth_Janus

Not this song and dance again. I've already defended Ragnos' high esteem in the past. Why regurgitate it all again? Unless you can put it into some way of looking that will totally blow my mind. Like, a good example would be where Darth Windu reminded me about Dooku's perceptions of Grievious in LOE, and how GG wins when he has the advantage of surprise and terror. He took a direct piece of evidence and made an observation that made me stop and reevaluate my whole way of thinking about Grievious and even Ki-Adi-Mundi. By putting it into perspective, Darth Windu changed my mind on the issue.

But I don't see anything coming from you and Darth Frobo that even resembles that. It's all just undermining his accomplishments and discrediting him because you haven't seen anything. It would be like someone arguing that Patton was a better general than Hannibal just because you have more empiracal evidence showing Patton's tactics. No one's saying you have to utterly believe with utmost conviction that Ragnos is very powerful and very cunning... It's just really obvious to those of us who aren't on a character bashing mission.

And as for "IMO".... your opinion regarding the definition of fanboy apparently applies to whoever doesn't share your views. That's ridiculous. I suggest you stow it. I called you a fanboy because of what you're doing now, and what you've done the whole time you've been here... Prop Revan up on some invincible pedastal. And you think Revan can beat anyone else simply because there's a lack of evidence on Tulak Hord, or Marka Ragnos, or even Exar Kun... I mean, you'd argue that Revan can take NJO Luke and yet you can't even tell me if Revan pees standing up or not! Come on now... talk about "lack of evidence"... we know jack shit about Revan save for Revan was a Sith lord with an assload of accomplishments. Nothing about the fighting style.... Nothing about the relation of Revan's power to anyone else save Malak. So don't preach to us about not knowing any of Ragnos' powers and how we can't make a judgment. You've done it yourself.

Emperor Revan

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Not this song and dance again. I've already defended Ragnos' high esteem in the past. Why regurgitate it all again? Unless you can put it into some way of looking that will totally blow my mind. Like, a good example would be where Darth Windu reminded me about Dooku's perceptions of Grievious in LOE, and how GG wins when he has the advantage of surprise and terror. He took a direct piece of evidence and made an observation that made me stop and reevaluate my whole way of thinking about Grievious and even Ki-Adi-Mundi. By putting it into perspective, Darth Windu changed my mind on the issue.

But I don't see anything coming from you and Darth Frobo that even resembles that. It's all just undermining his accomplishments and discrediting him because you haven't seen anything. It would be like someone arguing that Patton was a better general than Hannibal just because you have more empiracal evidence showing Patton's tactics. No one's saying you have to utterly believe with utmost conviction that Ragnos is very powerful and very cunning... It's just really obvious to those of us who aren't on a character bashing mission.

And as for "IMO".... your opinion regarding the definition of fanboy apparently applies to whoever doesn't share your views. That's ridiculous. I suggest you stow it. I called you a fanboy because of what you're doing now, and what you've done the whole time you've been here... Prop Revan up on some invincible pedastal. And you think Revan can beat anyone else simply because there's a lack of evidence on Tulak Hord, or Marka Ragnos, or even Exar Kun... I mean, you'd argue that Revan can take NJO Luke and yet you can't even tell me if Revan pees standing up or not! Come on now... talk about "lack of evidence"... we know jack shit about Revan save for Revan was a Sith lord with an assload of accomplishments. Nothing about the fighting style.... Nothing about the relation of Revan's power to anyone else save Malak. So don't preach to us about not knowing any of Ragnos' powers and how we can't make a judgment. You've done it yourself.

Oh come on, Frobo and I have been going on for pages. Read through it all. Next, I don't care if other people have different views than mine, I respect it if they can back it up. Next, I don't put Revan on an invincible pedestal, yet you seem to with Ragnos. I just said earlier that there have been other threads where I post Revan will lose. Read through them. And yes I do also think Revan could beat NJO Luke. He isn't the god you think he is Janus, he was very nearly killed by a single Yuuzhan Vong pretending to be the supreme overlord. And like you said, Revan has an assload of accomplishments, what do you compare power on? I hope he can pee standing up, he probably can, but it doesn't matter if it's not in direct correlation to power or any way of judging it. We know WAY more about Revan than most EU characters whereas Ragnos has defeated one Sith who was probably powerful but we don't know. Woo hoo.

You blame me of calling people a fanboy when it clashes with my views? Look at you. We have posted pages of reasons questioning Ragnos' power, Nai, Illustrious, and Glentract have made some good points to SOME, but not nearly all. You've been sitting there saying Ragnos is all powerful, anyone who says otherwise is a fanboy, and I'm not gonna say why Ragnos is so good or even try to counter other's posts. How do you even pretend to think I'm a fanboy if you're not?

Darth_Glentract

whats up with listing Nai and Illustrious before me? lol big grin

Illustrious

My problem is that instead of building up Revan's case, you attempt to drag down Ragnos through one sided banter.

For you, it's not saying what Revan does rivals Ragnos, it's always about declaring him inept. You do this by either questioning Ragnos' reign, which was unprecedented; you do this by questioning his enemies, which existed; you do this by question Simus, whom was explicitly mentioned as being the most powerful of his time and whom Ragnos defeated.

I have no problem with the fact you like Revan, it's obvious you do, but you should worry about building up Revan's credentials, not knocking down Ragnos', which are pretty much impeccable. You have to admit, whether you like to or not, Ragnos ruling a Sith Empire of thousands of force sensitive, sword wielding bad mofos who are pretty much all power hungry is impressive beyond any doubt.

You mentioned that the Sith simply wait for the Sith Lord to die before they take over. This is far from the truth: Ragnos grabbed the throne for himself. Kressh fought Sadow for it, and Sadow became the Dark Lord. Nadd is believed to have killed Sadow's spirit the moment he became strong enough, and then becomes Dark Lord. The same with Exar Kun, who destroyed Nadd's spirit the second he became powerful enough to do so.

The fact that Ragnos has not 1, but 2 individuals, in Sadow and Kressh, who pack serious power and neither of them, even together, decided to knock him off, speaks volumes about his power. Then not to mention how much Kreia touts about the ancient Siths power. There are many reasons to think Ragnos is the greatest/most powerful Sith, and not too many to think otherwise.

Build up Revan's credentials, but right now, they don't stack up to Ragnos'. Don't tear down Ragnos's credentials to build up your argument.

Darth_Janus

Here's what you and Frobo have posted, in a nutshell.

"Yeah even though he only defeated one person he must be really powerful."

This was ridiculous. To say that Ragnos only killed one person because the only kill we happen to have available to us is named is about as illogical as saying that Han Solo has only killed one Rodian in his lifetime based on what we know from ANH.

"Even though he only ruled over a couple of planets, it's not like any other Sith could possibly rule their entire lives over a couple of planets"

Oh really? So tell me... What other Sith have ruled over a couple of planets populated with Sith? Oh wait... none. Nice try.

"Even though no credible star wars site says anything about these Sith being all powerful or Ragnos being extremely powerful or even mentioning him at all sometimes they must be."
All powerful is never mentioned. Overwhelmingly power? Probably. But if your sole source of information consists of credible Star Wars sites, you shouldn't know who the hell Revan is, because he's not at Starwars.com.

"We know Kreia said that Ragnos posessed tremendous strength, both physically and in the Force"

And that didn't strike you as exceptional that she would even comment on that?

"Kreia the one who never manipulates or lies (telling Handmaiden that the Exile is dead, using the Exile for some ulterior motive to try and destroy the Force, etc.) Kreia said Ragnos had tremendous strength both physically and in the Force so Ragnos must be the most powerful being ever capable of destroying planets by blowing his nose. (Even though Kreia says Revan is power and staring at him was like staring at the heart of the Force back when he was just a Jedi padawan and he would later multiply his power several fold, and Kreia is saying this about someone she actually knew unlike Ragnos)"

What's this all about" You think a historian is going to lie or exaggerate when she's been telling you information that was true and credible since you landed on Korriban? What, you think she just randomnly lied? To what end? If you distrust Kreia so much, what she says about Revan should be equally suspect.

"It's not like Revan was powerful or anything. (Even though Wikipedia, the Free encyclopedia says that Revan is thought by many to be the most powerful Sith Lord of all time) Ragnos or any ancient Sith for that matter would easily fart and destroy Revan and everyone else of his time (1,000 years later)"

Wikipedia is a source anyone can edit, and it's never been an official credible Star Wars site, so why bother quoting it? And since when has everyone thinking Revan is the most powerful ever changed anything? Most people think Sidious and Vader are powerful compard to Revan, and yet they aren't. That changes nothing. But your post here especially is fanboyish to the extreme.

"Revan has the highest level of Battle precog, has the Will power to resist the Dark side of an entire planet that no one else (not even Kreia) could resist, controlled an enormous space station that siphoned the power of a star and killed hundreds of other Sith who tried to control it, is perhaps the greatest tactician ever, has enormously high potential, plunders all the knowledge he could from the Jedi temples, he plundered tombs, relics, artifacts, and knowledge from a planet sized Sith storehouse of knowledge, learned dozens of ways to kill or turn Jedi/Sith, fights for 6 years straight as the leader of one of the main forces in the two different wars against powerful opponents, killing Mandalore and the strongest Echani, and was considered by Kreia (Revan's mentor who could kill three Jedi council members at the same time with one use of the Force) to be the heart of the Force. Then he loses all that power and becomes a Jedi again, he plunders Korriban, including the tombs of four very powerful dark lords, gaining their artifacts, learning from Tulak's holocron, killing two tarentateks at the same time by himself when just one could easily kill a Jedi, he killed everyone in a Sith academy that he started, he killed the best bounty hunter at that time, a Sith Lord, he killed hundreds of dark Jedi and assassin droids, defeated and killed his apprentice Darth Malak at least twice in a row, and became even stronger than he was during his first reign (first paragraph). Then he recovers all his memories and knowledge from Malachor V, the Jedi temples, etc. increasing his power greatly from the second paragraph, before he goes to fight the ancient Sith empire single handedly."

Battle precognition won't save him from being destroyed from a far superior Sith. His will power isn't as big a factor in this battle as you'd imply, and his control over the Star Forge is exceptional but not something totally exclusive. That is, it has yet to be shown just how powerful one must be to control it. Jesus, just reading this reeks of fanboyism... Even I'm getting disgusted with this.

"Now I have never read anywhere that Sadow and Kressh feared him or at least as much as you say."

So just what have you read?

Here's from your friend Frobo...

"he ruled a couple planets which is less then revan did, revan defeated hundreds if not thousands of jedi so a sith magician is no big deal, as for going unchallenged it was manipulation not power."

First off, Frobo has no idea how large the Sith empire was, so he assumes it was a couple of planets. Then he says it is less than what Revan did, even though Revan didn't rule a planet in his life. He was a general, not a ruler. Second, there is no official website or canon source that says Revan even killed five jedi, let alone hundreds or thousands. And nice job of shrugging aside the victory over Simus and the fact that he held his throne for over a century in a Sith land, where the rule is the strongest rule. If Ragnos was NOT the strongest, why did he rule? Answer me that one.

"As for his long rule going "unchallenged" it's pretty easy to go unchallenged when everyone who could put up a fight to you is killing one another instead because you're a lying manipulative SOB. what shows that the fear wasn't justified is that ragnos never fought anyone himself he merely manipulated them into fighting someone else who was stronger. He's no better then sidious he fought once in his life against someone who didn't even have the force and he's hailed as a God around here, why? is it because he outsmarted some sith? is it because someone powerful was afraid of him, many people around the world are afraid of george bush not because of his skill in battle but because of the ressources at his disposal because of what he has at his back. If ragnos could manipulate the sith empire into following him then what would be the point of attacking him if he has the entire empire at his back? he could merely find out about it before hand and have said individual executed as a traitor. The sith probably weren't afraid of ragnos as much as they were of the ressources at his disposal. "

First sentence, nonsense. Second sentence, assumption. Frobo assumes just like you do that Ragnos never fought anybody. Evidence for this? None. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. There were no verified dinosaur bones until the eighteen hundreds. Does that mean there were no dinosaurs that whole time?

"As for the duels, we don't know but going by ragnos's manipulative nature he could have weaseled his way out and we also don't know the caliber of those he fought except for simus so that's pretty much null."

So here Frobo diminishes Ragnos to a weasely manipulator and not a fighter, while giving us NO evidence at all. Not even sound reasoning. Just... boom... opinion and assumption.

"Finally we come to simus. so he was powerful, the power of the force is still greater and it's called force lightning for a reason they may have used magic at the time but the force is ultimatley greater. Even considering that simus was a powerful magician how do we know if he was a great duelist or not what do we know about his saber skills...jack all so we can't really know if he was that good. Revan defeated malak who was drawing on the greatest artifact of a darkside/drawing on a sun for power"

Now, Frobo tries to discredit Simus to totally prove that Ragnos sucks. Frobo assumes that Sith magic is separate from the Force and assumes that the force is greater. Frobo assumes Simus must not be a good duellist because he is a Sith magician, even though every Sith lord -at least- from Exar Kun and before was considered a Sith magician. Frobo then goes on to make the biggest assumption of this post- that the Starforge is the greatest artifact of the darkside, which is ridiculous.

"It's been repeatedly said in this thread and in others, "Ragnos was so powerful that in a time of ancient sith lords no one dared challenge him." Many many many times it's probably been said more then anything else on this forum."

In particular, we know that Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh even together were afraid of Marka Ragnos. Even when he was dead and had no assets or armies they were afraid of him. why? His power was immense. Or, if you ask Frobo... they must be afraid because he's a weakely manipulative bastard.

Darth_Janus

By the way, where were the amazing facts and logic we were promised in your guys' posts? I must have missed those, considering I read them all.

Apex512

Janus is fired up!furious

*grabs popcorn and waits for next post*

Illustrious

Exactly the same thing I've said before.

Maybe now that the Lord of Jawas said it, the Revan fanboys will listen.

Darth_Janus

Originally posted by Apex512
Janus is fired up!furious

*grabs popcorn and waits for next post*

Hey, I was called out. Now, I wasn't gonna get involved in this because it's so controversial, but now I did. And you'd better get a big vat of popcorn, because of Frobo and Emperor come back with another round of nonsense, I'm gonna do it again. This is getting ridiculous.

Illustrious

Ahh, welcome to the side of logic and reasoning, population: 4.

Apex512

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Hey, I was called out. Now, I wasn't gonna get involved in this because it's so controversial, but now I did. And you'd better get a big vat of popcorn, because of Frobo and Emperor come back with another round of nonsense, I'm gonna do it again. This is getting ridiculous.

Yes, Yes, it is.

Oh, and that new sig really fits your attitude right now. That sig is like your transformation from intellect .. To absolute ranting, but I kind of like the change.

Illustrious

It's intellectual ranting, get it right . stick out tongue

Apex512

That's what I meant. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Darth_Janus

lol... I like this new sig. I spent fifteen minutes on it. That's more than I spend on posting.

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Sidious manipulated the entire republic and jedi order who were actually looking for a sith threat at the time to fight the only other force that would cause him any grief (the cis) as well as the jedi. What says that ragnos couldn't have done something similiar. You say that he manipulated others into fighting him yet you also say that he went unchallenged your contradicting yourself did he or did he not go unvhallenged during his reign, if he did then it was because he was a manipulative bastard because if the sith wanted him out they could have banded together with their forces and taken him, or had him assasinated, or started some form of rebellion. If Palpatine's empire was so much insanely more powerful then Ragnos's (which it was) and it went challenged by a force much smaller then it then logically one insanely powerful sith lord would try at one point or another unless he was being manipulated not to which as said before would be cowardice.

Woah....
Ragnos manipulated the other Sith Lords into fighting each other and he made them focus they attention on him. Still none of them - I don't know if somebody tried - was powerful enough to challenge him. And please:
- assasinating somebody who is nearly all powerful ? How ?
- rebellion against somebody who was feared by people powerful enought to blow up stars ?

The problem is that the only way to take the title as a dark lord is to beat the actual dark lord in a duel (force powers or sword fight). Now if no one ever tried to do so (at least no one ever did it) Ragnos must be the most powerful swordfighter and force user at the high point of the Sith empire.

And Palpatines empire was more powerful than Ragnos ? LOL !
Sorry...the Sith Empire was wealthier than the Republic. They had advanced technology and they had tons of powerful force users. See...any of the ancient Sith Lords needed an entire army of Jedi to get defeated (Sadow, Kun, Nadd) and those people were weaker than Ragnos.

Now...all were weaker than him. See...that is the entire point. If somebody would have been stronger than Ragnos, Ragnos wouldn't have been Dark Lord for such a long time. That is how the Sith Empire worked.

Hell...they still feared him when he was a spirit. And they didn't even try to kill him when he was on his death bed.

Again: Civil wars against the Dark Lord were common in the Sith Empire. Duels against the Dark Lord were common. They constantly challenged each other to find out who is the strongest. That is the base of the Sith Empire. Yet...either no one ever beat Ragnos when he was alive or they were too afraid of him to try to do so...that doesn't matter. Fact is that Ragnos was the most powerful person within the Sith Empire when the Sith Empire reached it's peak. No one before him and no one after him ever reached that status

Oh great. Everybody want his title and they were too busy to fight people they don't need to fight instead of fighting Rangos ? And keeping 20 (!) Sith Lords under your control ? Errr...

W T F ?
Did we ever saw Ragnos wielding a sceptre in the god damn comics who are FAR more canon than the games ? No. And what are you talking about "his apprentices" ? He had none. That is the Sith Empire and not the post Battle of Ruusan Sith Order. Just if you don't get it.

1 Dark Lord
20 Sith Lords (guys like Sidious, Kreia and so on)

What has a sceptre that was never seen used by Ragnos, or Sadow or Kressh have to do with that thread ?

LOL again. Simus was the most powerful Sith magician at the highest point of Sith magic. Get it. He is more powerful than Sadow, Nadd and even Exar Kun. And Ragnos defeated him.

a)
Force lightning is also called Sith Lightning so...oh my...

b)
You still seem to not know what the Sith Empire was. Really.
Imagine a place were literary everyone wants to rule as a Dark Lord. They all practice Sith Magic they all wield swords and have muscles that would make Revan look like Woody Allen compared to Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Their entire lifes are focused on force use (Sith Magic) and fighting (swordfighting) and for all we know they can live 150 years easily. So after 100 years of practicing Sith magic and sword combat you better be goddamn good. Yet Simus was the best until Ragnos showed up.

And if you still don't get it. "Sith magic" is that what people would call "dark side powers" - there is no difference between them. If you didn't know - it were dark Jedi that started the Sith empire.

And **** the Star Forge. Sadow did blow up stars. Kun and Ulic (or lets say Aleema Keto) destroyed entire SUN SYSTEMS. That makes the Star Forge look like a toy.

WTF ? Ragnos and the people in his times were the well of Revans knowledge. Got it ? What do you think were all that Sith knowledge Revan found came from ? Appearing out of nowhere ?

He plundered tombs that belonged to people like Ragnos himself or people that were inferior to Ragnos. He plundered Malachor V a planet where the Sith of Ragnos times did store their knowledge. Now Revan used that stuff for 3 years and the ancient Sith used it for their entire lifetimes in Ragnos case more than a century. Revan is a child (yes a child) compared to the ancient Sith Lords when it comes to "knowledge". And - just to have you finaly get it - Exar Kun might take Revan.

Now:
Ragnos (as a spirit) > Sadow + Kressh
Sadow alone (600 years post the peak of his power) > Nadd
Nadd (alive) > Exar

It's so damn obvious that Ragnos would kill Revan that I don't know why I'm even arguing here.

Darth_Janus

You're arguing because the rather rational idea that Ragnos pwns is being challenged with... ah.... nothing.

Nai Fohl

Ah...yes...thanks for reminding me...

Darth Windu

Wait. . . I agree with everything there, completely, but Ragnos' Spirit was stronger than the combined powers of a living Sadow and Kressh?

Darth_Janus

Not a problem. I went ahead and reread this whole thread earlier, so I'm quite on topic.

Illustrious

Originally posted by Darth Windu
Wait. . . I agree with everything there, completely, but Ragnos' Spirit was stronger than the combined powers of a living Sadow and Kressh?

Ragnos' spirit immediately after his death was at least comparable. Obviously the spirit that Jaden Korr spanked had the limitations of a weak body and 5000 years of aging. Maybe his spirit didn't age well stick out tongue

Darth_Frobo

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Woah....
Ragnos manipulated the other Sith Lords into fighting each other and he made them focus they attention on him. Still none of them - I don't know if somebody tried - was powerful enough to challenge him. And please:
- assasinating somebody who is nearly all powerful ? How ?
- rebellion against somebody who was feared by people powerful enought to blow up stars ?

The problem is that the only way to take the title as a dark lord is to beat the actual dark lord in a duel (force powers or sword fight). Now if no one ever tried to do so (at least no one ever did it) Ragnos must be the most powerful swordfighter and force user at the high point of the Sith empire.

And Palpatines empire was more powerful than Ragnos ? LOL !
Sorry...the Sith Empire was wealthier than the Republic. They had advanced technology and they had tons of powerful force users. See...any of the ancient Sith Lords needed an entire army of Jedi to get defeated (Sadow, Kun, Nadd) and those people were weaker than Ragnos.

Now...all were weaker than him. See...that is the entire point. If somebody would have been stronger than Ragnos, Ragnos wouldn't have been Dark Lord for such a long time. That is how the Sith Empire worked.

Hell...they still feared him when he was a spirit. And they didn't even try to kill him when he was on his death bed.

Again: Civil wars against the Dark Lord were common in the Sith Empire. Duels against the Dark Lord were common. They constantly challenged each other to find out who is the strongest. That is the base of the Sith Empire. Yet...either no one ever beat Ragnos when he was alive or they were too afraid of him to try to do so...that doesn't matter. Fact is that Ragnos was the most powerful person within the Sith Empire when the Sith Empire reached it's peak. No one before him and no one after him ever reached that status

Oh great. Everybody want his title and they were too busy to fight people they don't need to fight instead of fighting Rangos ? And keeping 20 (!) Sith Lords under your control ? Errr...

W T F ?
Did we ever saw Ragnos wielding a sceptre in the god damn comics who are FAR more canon than the games ? No. And what are you talking about "his apprentices" ? He had none. That is the Sith Empire and not the post Battle of Ruusan Sith Order. Just if you don't get it.

1 Dark Lord
20 Sith Lords (guys like Sidious, Kreia and so on)

What has a sceptre that was never seen used by Ragnos, or Sadow or Kressh have to do with that thread ?

LOL again. Simus was the most powerful Sith magician at the highest point of Sith magic. Get it. He is more powerful than Sadow, Nadd and even Exar Kun. And Ragnos defeated him.

a)
Force lightning is also called Sith Lightning so...oh my...

b)
You still seem to not know what the Sith Empire was. Really.
Imagine a place were literary everyone wants to rule as a Dark Lord. They all practice Sith Magic they all wield swords and have muscles that would make Revan look like Woody Allen compared to Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Their entire lifes are focused on force use (Sith Magic) and fighting (swordfighting) and for all we know they can live 150 years easily. So after 100 years of practicing Sith magic and sword combat you better be goddamn good. Yet Simus was the best until Ragnos showed up.

And if you still don't get it. "Sith magic" is that what people would call "dark side powers" - there is no difference between them. If you didn't know - it were dark Jedi that started the Sith empire.

And **** the Star Forge. Sadow did blow up stars. Kun and Ulic (or lets say Aleema Keto) destroyed entire SUN SYSTEMS. That makes the Star Forge look like a toy.

WTF ? Ragnos and the people in his times were the well of Revans knowledge. Got it ? What do you think were all that Sith knowledge Revan found came from ? Appearing out of nowhere ?

He plundered tombs that belonged to people like Ragnos himself or people that were inferior to Ragnos. He plundered Malachor V a planet where the Sith of Ragnos times did store their knowledge. Now Revan used that stuff for 3 years and the ancient Sith used it for their entire lifetimes in Ragnos case more than a century. Revan is a child (yes a child) compared to the ancient Sith Lords when it comes to "knowledge". And - just to have you finaly get it - Exar Kun might take Revan.

Now:
Ragnos (as a spirit) > Sadow + Kressh
Sadow alone (600 years post the peak of his power) > Nadd
Nadd (alive) > Exar

It's so damn obvious that Ragnos would kill Revan that I don't know why I'm even arguing here.

Lets see, as for assuming the mantle of the dark lord, malak took out revan with a cheap shot and assumed the title of apprentice why wouldn't sadow do the same?

As far as rebellions are concerned who cares who fears him, I've just spent multiple posts explaining why that fear wasn't justified.

The sith empire under ragnos could not stack up to two death stars a sun crusher hundreds of thousands of star destroyers and millions upon millions of solidiers sorry.

About all being weaker then him, knowing that sadow and kresh both hated him, both had view points that conflicted in every way and both were the only two that had enough power to challenge him wouldn't it make sense that he deals with both of them so he has an uncontested rule in which none are able to challenge him? That's exactly what he didn't do why...because he was either afraid of them or afraid that without them if a civil war would brake out he would lose.

As for them fearing him as a spirit he was probably the first force spirit they'd seen and that would scare the hell out of you, if he wasn't remeber he spent his entire life manipulating people which probably included making himself seem more powerful then he really is, such displays of power would be useful in keeping the other sith lords in check. Just because he led didn't make him the greatest warrior.

As for keeping 20 sith lords under your control sidious controlled thousands of senators and jedi what trouble would someone have with 20 people.

As for the sceptre according to the game (which sucked blew and scared me for life) that's how they were able to blow up stars
whether or not it appeared in the comics is irrelevant truth is the games are actually overseen by lucas more then the comics are.

As for calling sadow and kresh his apprentices it's also been said a ridiculously high number of times, "Ragnos was so powerful that his apprentices could chuck stars." or, "Ragnos was so powerful he had sadow and kresh (who could throw stars) as apprentices" my sources are direct statements from ragnos supporters across all the threads he's in take it up with them.

As for simus we know he was the greatest magician and i concede the point that sith magic=force powers however being good with the force and being a good swordsman are completely different we have know clue who he fought if he fought at all and until we have more info.

As for your statement about the star forge i'll take that as a your right Frobo as you obviously weren't and probably still aren't able to come up with a more powerful darkside artifact which gives it's user as much power as the star forge did, so sadow could bend a star to his will, Revan also bent a sun to his will which he used to create an army that kicked the crap out of the republic.

As for Revans knowledge he absorbed EVERYTHING they had to offer him in terms of force power took artifacts from all the tombs that accented his power and had much more knowledge in terms of lightsaber knowledge and as Ragnos went unchallenged like you said I guess that would make him have more experience to right? Also the amount of force knowledge available to learn from for sith became greater and more extensive until you got a sith who was as powerful as plaguesis that could play god for fun so naturally Revan would have more to learn from and as he learned all of it that would give him greater knowledge.

I personally wanted to end this arguement in the first two pages because everyone knows jack all about ragnos but people still insist on continuing using this half ass info. We can end it now and save me a lot of time and effort on a thread about two fictional charachters or we can continue with the BS it's your descision.

Darth_Frobo

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
You're arguing because the rather rational idea that Ragnos pwns is being challenged with... ah.... nothing.

it's being argued against with everything we know about revan which has been posted probably close to 50 times across these boards and we've made several points showing that ragnos is the god he isn't made out to be next time you read a thread please try to do so with an open mind.

Darth Windu

"As for keeping 20 Sith Lords under your control Sidious controlled thousands of Senators and Jedi what trouble would someone have with 20 people."

Yeeeah. Except that all those Jedi, all those Senators. . . . not one of them knew what he really was. They suspected nothing from him. Only Mace Windu, and Yoda, to a lesser extent, suspected something was awry of the Jedi. Ragnos was obviously known across the Empire as what he was. There were perhaps one or two people who knew Palpatine's secret.

So, when Palpatine had those Councils with Yoda, Mace, and others, if they'd known his secret, they would have killed him on the spot. Ragnos would probably have such meetings with his subjects often. this is one Sith Lord meeting with twenty other Sith, the likes of which were possibly around Dooku's or Sidious' level of power, possibly more.

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Lets see, as for assuming the mantle of the dark lord, malak took out revan with a cheap shot and assumed the title of apprentice why wouldn't sadow do the same?

Yeah. Why wouldn't Sadow do the same. Maybe because he would even fear attacking Ragnos with a nuclear bomb because Ragnos might survive this and kick his ass over Korriban ?

Since you still don't get it. The Sith empire contained more than "a few" planets and even if it were only a "few planets" that would be a "few" planets filled with millions of force users.
Two death stars ? What for ? Those people could destroy a death star by waving their hands. They destroyed stars (Sadow) and sun systems (Kun) using Sith magic or technology aided by Sith magic / alchemy. They would own the sh*t out off the Galactic Empire.

For gods sake. Sadow and Kressh were afraid of his spirit. Got it know. They feared a confrontation with Ragnos being a spirit...ionized air particles.

Ajunta Pall ran around in his tomb for 20,000 years before Ragnos reign. And please...the spirit of Freedon Nadd could kill force users 400 years after his dead. Why shouldn't Ragnos do that ?
And hell...Sadow and Kressh had the talking head of Simus lying around and giving them some advice. If you have the talking head of a dead person lying around at home would you be scared of a ghost ?

Sidious couldn't keep Vader under his control and Ragnos had to deal with 20 people that would made Vader look like a child.

That's great. The sceptre made the people blow up stars. Sure the damn Jedi 5,000 years after Ragnos know more about him than Kreia would about Sith magicians like Kun who ran around in her lifetime.

And of course the people at Lucas Arts can give you more information on the Ancient Sith than the creators of the ancient Sith. And if you want to take games as "canon" explain Rebellion / Force Commander / Battle Fronts to me that contradict the movies every 2 minutes.

Great. Sadow and Kressh were both Sith Lords (in the Council) and Ragnos reigned over them. They don't were his apprentices since there was nothing like apprentices back in that time (in terms of the one master one student rule).

Why can't you get it ? He had to kill dozens of people to archieve his position in the Sith priesthood. He had to kill even more people to become Dark Lord of the Sith. That is how the Sith Empire worked. Why can't you simply accept the truth.

a)
The Star Forge is just charged with Dark Side energies but it's not a dark side artifact.

b)
Revan used technology (the Star Force) to bent a sun to his will while Sadow did it with his raw power. So who is stronger now ? If Revan could do what people like Sadow could do he didn't even need to search the star force because he could have blown away planets as he liked. He could have traveled around with a single ship and conquer the republic.

Yeah...sure he learned the entire secrets of a 20,000 year old culture in 3 years while leading a full scale war against the republic. Sure as hell he did not nor did he knew more about Sith magic than somebody like Ragnos who practiced that stuff for 100+ years.

30-50 or more years of constant fighting with a melee weapon against other force users only > 6 years frontline experience

You lose. Case closed. stick out tongue

Darth_Janus

Frobo = pwn3d. You don't have anything to stand up to Nai's scrutiny. Or really, any scrutiny.

Illustrious

That's the shittiest logic I've ever seen.

Ragnos didn't challenge them because they were scared of him, they would LISTEN to what he had to say. Why dispose of two loyal followers simply because they may attempt to overthrow them; which they DIDN'T.

Why? Because Ragnos was more powerful, simple as that.

Darth_Frobo

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Yeah. Why wouldn't Sadow do the same. Maybe because he would even fear attacking Ragnos with a nuclear bomb because Ragnos might survive this and kick his ass over Korriban ?

Since you still don't get it. The Sith empire contained more than "a few" planets and even if it were only a "few planets" that would be a "few" planets filled with millions of force users.
Two death stars ? What for ? Those people could destroy a death star by waving their hands. They destroyed stars (Sadow) and sun systems (Kun) using Sith magic or technology aided by Sith magic / alchemy. They would own the sh*t out off the Galactic Empire.

For gods sake. Sadow and Kressh were afraid of his spirit. Got it know. They feared a confrontation with Ragnos being a spirit...ionized air particles.

Ajunta Pall ran around in his tomb for 20,000 years before Ragnos reign. And please...the spirit of Freedon Nadd could kill force users 400 years after his dead. Why shouldn't Ragnos do that ?
And hell...Sadow and Kressh had the talking head of Simus lying around and giving them some advice. If you have the talking head of a dead person lying around at home would you be scared of a ghost ?

Sidious couldn't keep Vader under his control and Ragnos had to deal with 20 people that would made Vader look like a child.

That's great. The sceptre made the people blow up stars. Sure the damn Jedi 5,000 years after Ragnos know more about him than Kreia would about Sith magicians like Kun who ran around in her lifetime.

And of course the people at Lucas Arts can give you more information on the Ancient Sith than the creators of the ancient Sith. And if you want to take games as "canon" explain Rebellion / Force Commander / Battle Fronts to me that contradict the movies every 2 minutes.

Great. Sadow and Kressh were both Sith Lords (in the Council) and Ragnos reigned over them. They don't were his apprentices since there was nothing like apprentices back in that time (in terms of the one master one student rule).

Why can't you get it ? He had to kill dozens of people to archieve his position in the Sith priesthood. He had to kill even more people to become Dark Lord of the Sith. That is how the Sith Empire worked. Why can't you simply accept the truth.

a)
The Star Forge is just charged with Dark Side energies but it's not a dark side artifact.

b)
Revan used technology (the Star Force) to bent a sun to his will while Sadow did it with his raw power. So who is stronger now ? If Revan could do what people like Sadow could do he didn't even need to search the star force because he could have blown away planets as he liked. He could have traveled around with a single ship and conquer the republic.

Yeah...sure he learned the entire secrets of a 20,000 year old culture in 3 years while leading a full scale war against the republic. Sure as hell he did not nor did he knew more about Sith magic than somebody like Ragnos who practiced that stuff for 100+ years.

30-50 or more years of constant fighting with a melee weapon against other force users only > 6 years frontline experience

You lose. Case closed. stick out tongue

Your entire arguement is centered around him being feared, everything else is merely heresay we don't know if he killed people other then simus I'm not saying he didn't but we simply don't know, we also don't know how powerful he really was your logic is because he was feared by powerful people that must make him powerful which is pretty crapass if you think about it.

While I may have been pwned over some minuit details I've definitley made a couple of points showing that that fear may not and maybe even probably wasn't justified.

Your first point is just plain dumb there Ragnos is mortal like everyone else there are certain things he just can't survive.

As far as the sith empire beating the galactic empire is concerned Sadow (who could throw stars) took on the republic (which was MUCH weaker then the empire trust me) and lost you'll argue that's because he was fighting with kresh as well but if he could pwn death stars so easily he should be able to take a fleet of inferior starships, he didn't now consider how powerful the empire was.

So they feared ragnos...until we have proof that fear was justified that says nothing.

As for the sceptre it's considered cannon as much as it defies common sense much like many other star wars games that's just the way it works, as for those other games they display what if scenarios not what actually happened.

As for your point about the apprentices take it up with the people who said it, I've merely quoted things ragnos supporters have said and shown them to be wrong yet somehow there's always someone to try to lecture me like I'm writing my own opinion or something, all I did was quote what other people who share the same viewpoint as you have used to support their beliefs.

Palpatine also had to control generals and politicians and the only reason he couldn't control vader because of his willpower based off an emotional bond with his son sith at that time didn't worry about love and such as you said they were to busy worrying about sword fighting and such so the emotional bond they'd need to escape ragnos manipulation as for will power um...they were his lackeys for 150 years in a culture where that's the equivelant of being a quadruple amputee hobo you think after 150 years of shame they might try to get some honour back, probably not because they were too far under his control after going unchallenged for a certain amount of time it gave him an aurora of invincibility which is why he was never challenged later, by that time he probably had manipulated them so he had such total control that they WANTED to obey him it's more then possible and has happened numerous times in sith circles.

As for your star forge point the star forge merely makes it easier for it's ruler to channel the darkside energies therin in order to create things or channel the energies of the sun to strengthen oneself. Revan channeled the darkside energies of the star forge to control the sun to make his army and malak channeled the darkside energies of the star forge to keep the jedi alive so he could drain their lifeforce.

As for your statement about sadow I've already written about the ~shudders in contempt for lucasarts~ sceptre and obviously even sadow lost to the republic with a full fleet of superior starships at his command. Furthermore Revan would have no need to blow up planets as if you remember he was trying to help the republic to the point where he never destroyed planets like malak did.

You completely ignored what I said there and listened only to the parts that you could contradict while not taking in the whole statement, what I said was the the siths knowledge of the force got greater over time unlike the jedi's and more info was added on korriban and malachor and more powerful techniques were devellopped in the two or three thousand years between them and Revan, they would not have access to such techniques being dead but Revan did as well as what they had to offer and he learned everything possible from there remeber what I've said before Revan was an insanely fast learner and the game even supports that he learned everything possible from his sources as well as having hundreds of ancient sith artifacts that bolstered his power just by him having them.

You've tried to base an entire arguement around assumptions you've made, educated guesses at best so really until you have any proof once so ever supporting Ragnos power other then guesses like, "He must have been powerful because powerful people were cared of him" or he must have been powerful because he was in charge of a lot of people." which are factless unproven assumptions attempted to be passed off as real proof. The only proof we do have of his power is that he killed simus but we have absolutley nothing showing that he was the slightest bit powerful..at all I'm not saying he wasn't but all you have are guesses and assumptions not facts nothing you have said can be proven or has any evidence once so ever backing it. all it has are assumptions based off the extremely little knowledge we have of the time, sorry Nai but the truth is as far as facts are concerned you've got next to nothing.

Darth_Frobo

Originally posted by Illustrious
That's the shittiest logic I've ever seen.

Ragnos didn't challenge them because they were scared of him, they would LISTEN to what he had to say. Why dispose of two loyal followers simply because they may attempt to overthrow them; which they DIDN'T.

Why? Because Ragnos was more powerful, simple as that.

Oh really then you wouldn't fare so well as a sith lord, if you have two people who beleive the complete opposite to you hate you (as far as I've been told) want to usurp power from you at any chance they get and are the only two remotley capable of defeating you as they are so insanely powerful they could throw stars it would make sense to get rid of them for two reasosns,

1. If anyone would or could oppose him it would be them so it would be smart to get rid of them, they weren't loyal they wanted him dead and if you have two people so close to you it would be smart to get rid of them so your rule goes uncontested instead of having to watch your back just in case assumning they wouldn't attack him would just leave him open to getting back-stabbed.

2.It would install a sense of fear in his followers showing that he really is the most powerful and none could challenge him and live securing his reign and rallying more supporters and loyal followers to him.

Think of the big picture.

Luke Is Better

jeez for such a shitty thread u guys sure r postin a lot

Darth_Frobo

lol by the way Janus could you perhaps make me a sig as I have no clue how and don't have photoshop.

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Your entire arguement is centered around him being feared, everything else is merely heresay we don't know if he killed people other then simus I'm not saying he didn't but we simply don't know, we also don't know how powerful he really was your logic is because he was feared by powerful people that must make him powerful which is pretty crapass if you think about it.

You simply don't get what I want to say. Imagine something like this: You put a single person in an area with 100 other people and all of them wanted to have a trophy. To get this trophy they must defeat or kill all the others. Now the single person get the trophy - how many people had he killed to get it ?
See...that's a question to which we have no answer but it would be more logical to say that person killed more than one of the opponents in the area as long as you don't want to tell me, that a single person can stand around in some major massacre doing nothing but waiting until there's only one opponent left and then kick his ass.

He survived for more than 100 years in an enviroment where you can thrust noone because everyone will kill you if he spots a weak point.

The Republic in Sadows times is pretty much not compareable to the Republic in the times of ROTS. In that times the Jedi were not "peacekeepers" but warriors. If you have a look at the comics they sended hundrets or even thousands of Jedi to kill people like Nadd or Kun.
And now...what do you think will happen if you have a fleet in a sun system and a single ship with a single person on bord flies in, the person moves his hand and makes the sun go supernova ?

Ah great. So some games are "what if scenarios" and other games are "canon" just as you like it. But just to show you that it doesn't matter how they did all that stuff.
How goddamn powerful must a single person be to create a sceptre that is powerful enough to drain the force power out of multiple places charge up an entire army of non-forces user with so much force power that they can use lightning and give people the ability to blow up stars and sun systems with it ? If this is Ragnos work he must be more powerful than the entire Rakatan species combined because that sceptre would make the star forge look like a toy.

And were the hell did they tell that the sceptre was what the ancient Sith (Sadow, Kun) used to destroy planets ? The only things that are said is that the sceptre can charge non-force users with force energy or boost the power of force users, drain the force from places, objects and force users and has the ability to bring dead people back to live again.

Why is it actualy easier for you to believe that somebody who his not quite powerful can manipulate 20 Sith Lords and command them around as he likes than it is to believe that they simply feared him because of his power ?

Just to create a compareable situation. Imagine the Jedi Council and have Sidious walk into it and cut Yoda's head off and after doing so manipulate the Jedi left into fighting each other or simply leave him unchallenged instead of fighting him. Pretty much not believeable except Sidious would have displayed such an amount of power that nobody else will try to challenge him.

I don't get it why you think that the more complicated and more impossible thing is the right one.

It still is channeling energies with the help of technology that is designed to channel energies. And while it requires quite some power it's still not as impressive as blowing an entire sun up with a hand movement.

Now what ?
Sadow was stopped by thousands of Jedi going against him at once. Still he managed to escape by blowing a sun up and was around 600 years later to teach Freedon Nadd.
Then Nadd who was trained by Sadow but never finished his training under Sadow (so he had less knowledge then Sadow) went to Onderon and conquered the entire planet on his own armed with a short lightsaber and a blaster pistol and he destroyed nearly all beast masters on Onderon with Sith magic before he was stopped by an entire army of Jedi - but still he was able to survive in his spirit form.
Then Nadd taught Exar and again Exar didn't finish his training under Nadd, still he nearly brought the Republic to it's knees and was only stopped because of Ulics betrayal. And again they sended an entire army of Jedi knights that destroyed pretty much every living being on Yavin 4 to stop Kun but still Kun survived as a spirit for more than 4,000 years.

Now realy for knowledge: Sadow > Nadd > Kun with the fact that Sadow was < Ragnos when it came to force powers and knowledge about Sith magic.

It is clearly said that the reign of Ragnos marked the highest point of the Sith Empire including Sith magic. After this that art as well as the Sith Empire declined.
And you should listen to the history of a game when you want to argue based on that history. It's clearly said that the Sith left Korriban and Malachor V past the times of Sadow because that planets were too close to the Republic space.
So the knowledge stored on Malachor V was exactly what the Sith left there in the times of Sadow and Ragnos and nothing more. For the artifacts: Revan plundered that what people like Sadow, Ragnos, Hord and Ajunta Pall have created with their own power. Now imagine those people alive wearing their own artifacts vs Revan who doesn't have the artifacts any longer.
And please...hundrets of ancient Sith artifacts to bolster his power ? He would look like a christmastree.

I gave you facts about the working of the Sith Empire - you deny it.
I gave you facts about the power of people that followed Ragnos - you ignore it.

And what you say (or assume) is:
In a society that is based on constant challenge and fighting in which the most powerful being always reigned, the most powerful ruler we know about must have been a coward that archieved anything only by manipulation following another ruler that was so weak that even the manipulative coward could kill him in a straight duel.

And you call that "logic" ?

Emperor Revan

ahh, you didn't respond to my post. Oh well.

Ragnos seems to have two arguments. He ruled for a century over a few planets and the entire sith empire. Sadow who didn't kill Ragnos could blow up stars.

1) This is the impressive one but everyone is putting Ragnos on a higher pedestal than he is. You keep saying everyone feared him and where do you come to that conclusion? Sadow manipulated nearly all the sith to support him in a couple days. Herego, it's not too hard and Ragnos could easily have done that. It's never been said anywhere that everyone feared him. Like I said before, they were loyal just like sith from every other time. They take orders without questions. Next, no other sith we've seen ever directly challenged their master in fair combat and won, so I don't see why Ragnos lovers say it happened on a daily basis. Ragnos had tons of supporters, they thought he was a great leader, gave him a big funeral and didn't know what the hell to do without him. Obviously they weren't going to challenge him every day. Next, Ragnos manipulated his enemies into fighting each other. If he's so powerful why would he do that?

If every single Sith hated him, Ragnos would be dead. Sadow could destroy the solar system with a wave of his hand or whatever and Ragnos would be gone. Or every Sith would just come together and try to fight him. Why didn't they? Because Ragnos was a good leader. Clearly he had many supporters and who would try and fight an army of Sith to destroy the guy who's ruled for quite a while? This is like an american deciding he wants a president that has ruled for 50 years dead. After a while, no one dares to question them. The same is true here.

Ragnos defeated Simus who we think is strong. Anyone else? No. Does that mean he fought no one ever? No, he probably fought a few in his early years before people feared to question him (because it's the same with any dictator, not the most powerful) Does that mean Ragnos fought everyone who was ever powerful? Hardly. We can't go on assumptions. Revan supporters don't go around saying he defeated the ancient Sith empire now do we? He went off to fight them single handedly, and we could easily assume he defeated them all but we don't. The same is true here.

2) Sadow could destroy stars. Could Ragnos? Possibly but he didn't. So how does that help Ragnos? If Sadow really wanted to kill Ragnos (which he didn't and I will explain in a moment) he would've gone off planet, waved his hand and destroyed the entire solar system along with Ragnos. No one could survive that. Next, Ragnos lovers love to say Sadow and Kressh feared him. Who came up with that? Sadow didn't bother to listen to Ragnos' spirit yet you say Sadow feared him? Really, where did you get that from? Sadow didn't want to kill Ragnos on his death bed because the Ragnos supporters would've killed Sadow. Instead, Naga waited until after Ragnos' death when they didn't know what the heck to do without Ragnos and he played off their confusion, easily manipulating them into declaring him the dark lord and going to war with him. A war against the Republic they lost, even with superior wealth, bizzare technology, star destroying, and a form of battle meditation, and all those super powered (or so you claim) sith lords, they lost. Yet Revan decimated the Republic and the jedi with half the forces the Republic had, and only minimal dark Jedi up against battle meditation I might add.

Speaking of Sadow, he wasn't all that impressive anyway. I'm not sure how many stars he destroyed, but the last one was unstable anyway. Destroying the stars is impressive (if of course he did it without any technology) but they had the technology to destroy stars anyway, and if technology could do it, I'd say using the Force to do it wouldn't be too hard. Kyp Durron, with very little training, maybe a month at most, pulled the sun crusher out of the core of Yavin with only minor help from Kun's spirit. He says he could've easily pulled it out of the core of a sun too. Luke can manipulate black holes, far more impressive to me. Revan and Malak can control an immense space station that's a powerful dark side artifact which requires someone really powerful to control it in order to siphon the power of a star.

Sadow couldn't even beat Kressh, and didn't defeat anyone else. Wow, and he didn't kill Ragnos so Ragnos must be bad ass.

Emperor Revan

Ragnos' spirit: Once more Ragnos lovers continually pretend that everyone feared Ragnos' spirit. Kun and Ulic did not fear Ragnos' spirit, and why would they? A spirit comes out of nowhere and claims them sith lords, why would they fear it? Sadow didn't bother to listen to Ragnos and Kressh didn't much either. Jaden Korr didn't fear Ragnos' spirit even after it was brought back to "life" so therefore it wasn't constantly weakening over 5,000 years. It was brought back with tons of Force energy capable of powering an army of non-force users into dark Jedi with multiple dark powers. Even still, Ragnos' spirit could not defeat a lone Jedi with a weapon.

Kun's spirit on the other hand, had 4,000 years to lose power since people think they get weaker over time (which doesn't make sense to me, or Kun would've been way stronger than he was) but after 4,000 years of weakening (and remember Ragnos' spirit wasn't seen again after 1,000 years past his death until it was brought back to life.) Kun's spirit destroyed a Jedi knight who fared pretty well against Luke and who had a lightsaber, Kun killed him with the Force only.

Revan destroyed the spirit of Ajunta Pall, one of the first Sith lords, and he predated Ragnos. Revan destroyed the spirit who had a sith sword, with very little of his power later on. After he did this, Malak could paralyze Revan but later on, Revan ploughs through the Star Forge, killing dozens of Sith apprentices and assassin droids with only Bastila and a non-Force user to help him, then he fights Malak's three strongest Sith, then after surving Malak's attempt to destroy Revan with the Star Forge itself (You'd think he'd be exhausted by now) Revan is even stronger than his first reign and defeats Malak (who's said to be more powerful than Sidious) TWICE IN A ROW. After that Revan regains his full memories from tons of knowledge he plundered from the Jedi, Korriban, Malachor V (a planet sized sith storehouse of knowledge) and more. And we all know how great Revan's lust for knowledge was.

On top of that, Ajunta Pall's spirit fell to the dark side, succumbing to the power of his dark sword. Revan took the sword and it didn't corrupt him. He resisted a planet that everyone else (including Kreia who could kill 3 council members with a wave of her hand) couldn't resist. Revan has immense potential, training from both sides of the Force, tons of knowledge (probably more than anyone else since he studied both sides so much), he's defeated everyone he's ever faced with ease, is a brilliant tactician, brought the galaxy to it's knees, and has the highest level of battle pre-cog which no other non-Echani ever mastered on top of his powerful connection to the Force.

As for Nai Fohl's conclusion, I don't know much about Nadd, but while Kun didn't have much training, he got a sith amulet that increased his power A LOT. After destroying Nadd's spirit, he gained a lot of knowledge from Ossus, and plenty of more Sith knowledge. I don't think we can say Nadd is stronger than Kun or Sadow is stronger than Nadd.

The conclusion: It is silly to consider Ragnos the most powerful with as little knowledge we have on him, relying on so much assumption. Ragnos must've been powerful, but we have no idea how powerful and shouldn't try to gauge his power. If we had to, it falls far short of Revan's, NJO Luke's, Exar Kun's, and Traya's.

Darth_Glentract

dang. I'm three pages behind now. This going way to fast.

Emperor Revan

Ahh, just read my last two posts and you'll be caught up.

*Emperor looks around to see if anyone's looking, no one is. Emperor slowly waves his hand and says to Glentract: "You will not support Ragnos any longer, you will join Frobo and I, we have free parking."

Darth_Glentract

I will not support Ragnos any longer, I will join Frobo and you, you have free....... What the hell.

Emperor Revan

lol.

Emperor: "Uh, why are you talking out loud?" *waves hand again* "We have the power of chees on our side too, plus mcdonalds big macs are half off."

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Ragnos seems to have two arguments. He ruled for a century over a few planets and the entire sith empire. Sadow who didn't kill Ragnos could blow up stars.

Ragnos arguments:
- growing up in an enviroment it which civil wars and duel were common and it's everyone vs everyone with the strongest on top
- defeated the greatest Sith magician and sword fighter at the peak of the Sith Empire
- reign over hundrets of planets filled with force users for more than a century
- making people like Sadow, Kressh, Kun and Ulic listen to his spirit

a)
There were only two people powerful enough to take Ragnos place after his death: Sadow and Kressh so basicaly you had to support one of them.

b)
Sith being loyal. You must be kidding.

c)
The fact that they didn't try to defeat Ragnos or at least didn't suceed with it shows that he is either more powerful than them all and killed everybody who tried to challenge them or they feared of challenging him because he's too powerful.

After a while no one dares to quetion him. Great idea. How he survived that time between "becoming dark lord" and the point were "no one dares to question him" ?

If you see Revan sitting on the throne of the Dark Lord would you then say he defeated the Sith Empire ? Yes. Now...Ragnos was Dark Lord - draw your own conclusions. So while Ragnos supporters have the proof that Ragnos must have defeated (according to any logic) the most powerful guys running around at the peak of the Sith Empire to become the dark lord you can actually say anything against that.

Could a more powerful force user block a force attack from a less powerful one ? Now guess what would happen if Sadow would have gone off the planet, wave his hand and try to destroy the entire solar system.

Sadow was declared to the Dark Lord by Ragnos spirit. Kressh being nearly as powerful as Sadow himself never questioned that decission. At least they both listened to what Ragnos spirit said.

20 Sith Lords VS serveral thousand Jedi Knights + the entire forces of the Republic. And why should they destroy everything when they wanted to conquer something ?

Revan decimated the Republic forces after Sadow, Nadd, Kun and Ulic have challenged them with their own forces. And after the Mandalorian wars who have greatly reduced the lines of the Jedi. And please don't forget that at the same moment Bastila entered the war with her battle meditation Revan began to lose. So he didn't do well against that.

Oh great. You must be really powerful to control the Star Forge. Based on what ? Because some dark siders that are nowhere even close to Revans powers couldn't do so ?

He didn't kill Kressh because Ragnos told them to stop fighting. That's like saying Exar Kun couldn't kill Ulic Quel-Droma who was defeated by Nomi Sunrider so Nomi Sunrider > Exar Kun.