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I know they overextended themselves and turned fans off with 3000000 different covers on each 1 issue etc.
But was their more to it?

onslaught saga/heroes reborn

and that fuqqin richards kid

Originally posted by Pointinel
onslaught saga/heroes reborn

and that fuqqin richards kid

Yes I think they all ruined it as well

poor stories resulting in poor sales
image tearing stuff up
high levels of debt
only books w/ wolverine were selling
too many gimmicks w/o enough quality

Originally posted by Solidus Snake
poor stories resulting in poor sales
image tearing stuff up
high levels of debt
only books w/ wolverine were selling
too many gimmicks w/o enough quality

So true, is it better now?

Wrong forum

moving.

Oh wait, I'm not a moderator, am I?

Originally posted by dawsey28
Wrong forum

moving.

Oh wait, I'm not a moderator, am I?


I've asked for it to be moved my mistake

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
So true, is it better now?


not as many gimmicks

wolvie isnt the only money maker

stories are a .......sigh.....not much better

making tons of money from the movies.

ultimates line kicking ass

I like the ultimates...

you do? damn.

why they have to make hulk such a puss there? and why does it seems that tony and thor got sumthin going? damn

ultimate x-men and spidey are my shit tho

i believe they put more money into developing books which were pointless and wasn't selling

Less poeple intrested in comics which most were rubbish and at times insignificant stories.

to much activities to business conducted for their revenue to kep up with
i.e marvel uk now owned by panini

i also think franklin is a pointless character (heores reborn )

yeah Ultimate Xmen is the shizzle wickedph

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
I like the ultimates...

Fair point Ultimates and some Maxx titles are good, not groundbreaking but very solid

DC should rework their characters with a new millenium feel too


or is taht what all stars is about

Problem is Marvel had the customers they stuck that way and didnt check if the customers would always like their characters that way......

Peoples preferences changed, Marvel nearly lost all but were saved by many movies and the Ultimate titles.


After saying this I fear that DC may suffer the same fate soon..........................they need to keep an eye on their customers or someday, like Marvel already knows, they might lose em.


But it is these guys who probably saved Marvel...........

and will kep on saving them.

\/
/\ fo LIFE

Originally posted by willRules
Problem is Marvel had the customers they stuck that way and didnt check if the customers would always like their characters that way......

Peoples preferences changed, Marvel nearly lost all but were saved by many movies and the Ultimate titles.


After saying this I fear that DC may suffer the same fate soon..........................they need to keep an eye on their customers or someday, like Marvel already knows, they might lose em.


But it is these guys who probably saved Marvel...........

DC has diversity, it has your kids titles, it has Wildstorm and it has Vertigo.

It also does a lot of mini's and it has Batman and Superman

Marvel still doesn't really have this yet.

One word: Onslaught.

Yeah, pissing away 30+ years of continuity to make the X-Men look good was a real turnoff for a lot of fans. Sad thing was Onslaught was actually a cool villain...I hope they bring him back...and use him a bit wiser next time.

it didnt revolve about the X

im tellin you it's that stupid richards kid!!!

it wasn't the xmen that saved marvel. it was a number of things: internal reorganization of their 'system of doing things', it was an end to failed acquisitions, it was a better licensing and marketing strategy and above all, it was the movies, starting with blade which granted the company enough cash to 'rise from the dead'. why did they have problems? they likely got complacent and cocky, thinking they could never lose touch with the public. an endless string of vary-covered #1's that no one was buying, silly spinoffs, and poor stories also all contributed to their fall. i also believe that continually increasing prices lost them a lot of people - me for one. they simply priced me out of collecting. how can young kids be expected to pay $4 for a comic book? not to mention all the x-overs that meant that if you wanted the WHOLE story you needed to buy 20 different issues - the main ones likely on better stock and costing $7!! tpb's and graphic novels and specialty issues could all run upwards of $30 or more. then you have the need for immediate gratification so many kids have nowadays. as a teacher, i know how hard it is to kid young kids interested in reading. they don't want to have to wait a month to follow a story - IF they can be made interested in reading at ALL.

all of these things hurt marvel. toys, movies, videogames are great ways to intro characters to marvel. funny to think - many of todays kids will know hulk from movies and games and will have never seen a hulk comic!! things really have changed since i (and whirly - good decision to change the name back btw! ) were whippersnappers . . .

y'all remember the uber violent marvel UK

Originally posted by leonidas
it wasn't the xmen that saved marvel. it was a number of things: internal reorganization of their 'system of doing things', it was an end to failed acquisitions, it was a better licensing and marketing strategy and above all, it was the movies, starting with blade which granted the company enough cash to 'rise from the dead'. why did they have problems? they likely got complacent and cocky, thinking they could never lose touch with the public. an endless string of vary-covered #1's that no one was buying, silly spinoffs, and poor stories also all contributed to their fall. i also believe that continually increasing prices lost them a lot of people - me for one. they simply priced me out of collecting. how can young kids be expected to pay $4 for a comic book? not to mention all the x-overs that meant that if you wanted the WHOLE story you needed to buy 20 different issues - the main ones likely on better stock and costing $7!! tpb's and graphic novels and specialty issues could all run upwards of $30 or more. then you have the need for immediate gratification so many kids have nowadays. as a teacher, i know how hard it is to kid young kids interested in reading. they don't want to have to wait a month to follow a story - IF they can be made interested in reading at ALL.

all of these things hurt marvel. toys, movies, videogames are great ways to intro characters to marvel. funny to think - many of todays kids will know hulk from movies and games and will have never seen a hulk comic!! things really have changed since i (and whirly - good decision to change the name back btw! ) were whippersnappers . . .

in a way it did.

x-books in top 20 regardless.

that's loyalty fam

<<in a way it did.

x-books in top 20 regardless.

that's loyalty fam>>

doesn't matter. books alone wouldn't have saved them - or rather they might have somehow stayed afloat but had only very ltd number of titles and next to no creative staff. xmen would NOT have been enough to 'save' them. did it help? of course. as did spiderman and the other top titles. the popularity of their titles needless to say, kept them running for 40 years! doesn't change the fact that it was things OUTSIDE the comics themselves that regained solvency for marvel and now keeps them going very strong indeed.

Originally posted by Pointinel
you do? damn.

why they have to make hulk such a puss there? and why does it seems that tony and thor got sumthin going? damn

ultimate x-men and spidey are my shit tho

Thats the ultimats I like the most, jean grey and mary jane baby...

Originally posted by Lord S
One word: Onslaught.

Yeah, pissing away 30+ years of continuity to make the X-Men look good was a real turnoff for a lot of fans. Sad thing was Onslaught was actually a cool villain...I hope they bring him back...and use him a bit wiser next time.


Yea, stupid secondary mutations and stuff.

I liked it when the xmen were more street level, and not as much of gods, you know what I mean.

Then they weakened juggernaut.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
Yea, stupid secondary mutations and stuff.

I liked it when the xmen were more street level, and not as much of gods, you know what I mean.

Then they weakened juggernaut. I hate the onslaught saga destroyed my favorite character made X-Men Gods.
Then the y made Juggernaut powered down I think I'm gonna cry.

Originally posted by newjak86
I hate the onslaught saga destroyed my favorite character made X-Men Gods.
Then the y made Juggernaut powered down I think I'm gonna cry.

I liked the xmen at street level, and I feel your sympathy on juggernaut.

In the top ten most popular comic books sold today in America, At number one is a superman Comic. Marvel have a the most comics in the top ten though which includes ( I think) at least......2 or 3 X titles.

Ever since Jim Lee started drawing Superman he has been in that top slot, when he did Batman hush that went to the top slot and when he returned to superman that became the top slot again.

So DC owns the no.1 most popular comic but Marvel is the one raking in the cash at the moment..............

In Wizard I heard it had something to do with Marvel having just finished purchasing Toybiz and some other company(I think it was a card company) & the death of Superman. After that series, Comic book sales @ large started dropping and Marvel couldn't withstand it @ the time. A strong Marvel means a strong industry, unfortunately the opposite was also true. Marvel being gone didn't do much to raise DC sales.

Originally posted by brainchild81
In Wizard I heard it had something to do with Marvel having just finished purchasing Toybiz and some other company(I think it was a card company) & the death of Superman. After that series, Comic book sales @ large started dropping and Marvel couldn't withstand it @ the time. A strong Marvel means a strong industry, unfortunately the opposite was also true. Marvel being gone didn't do much to raise DC sales.

true.


Hey Brainchild did you make the Punisher story and the Avengers Disassembled one on your link cos they are funny

Originally posted by willRules
true.


Hey Brainchild did you make the Punisher story and the Avengers Disassembled one on your link cos they are funny No. They are funny as hell though. Seen this before? Saint Spidey

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
I know they overextended themselves and turned fans off with 3000000 different covers on each 1 issue etc.
But was their more to it?
Wow Whirly... Watchmen !

You just made it into my top five of "least hated KMC-members"

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
I know they overextended themselves and turned fans off with 3000000 different covers on each 1 issue etc.
But was their more to it?

YOU weren't buying!

I rack it up to "Bad business descisions."
That's the answer.
The only answer.

<<I rack it up to "Bad business descisions."
That's the answer.
The only answer.>.

yep.

Originally posted by leonidas
it wasn't the xmen that saved marvel. it was a number of things: internal reorganization of their 'system of doing things', it was an end to failed acquisitions, it was a better licensing and marketing strategy and above all, it was the movies, starting with blade which granted the company enough cash to 'rise from the dead'. why did they have problems? they likely got complacent and cocky, thinking they could never lose touch with the public. an endless string of vary-covered #1's that no one was buying, silly spinoffs, and poor stories also all contributed to their fall. i also believe that continually increasing prices lost them a lot of people - me for one. they simply priced me out of collecting. how can young kids be expected to pay $4 for a comic book? not to mention all the x-overs that meant that if you wanted the WHOLE story you needed to buy 20 different issues - the main ones likely on better stock and costing $7!! tpb's and graphic novels and specialty issues could all run upwards of $30 or more. then you have the need for immediate gratification so many kids have nowadays. as a teacher, i know how hard it is to kid young kids interested in reading. they don't want to have to wait a month to follow a story - IF they can be made interested in reading at ALL.

all of these things hurt marvel. toys, movies, videogames are great ways to intro characters to marvel. funny to think - many of todays kids will know hulk from movies and games and will have never seen a hulk comic!! things really have changed since i (and whirly - good decision to change the name back btw! ) were whippersnappers . . .

I only intended to be Kuntz for 48 hours it had the desired affect Leo

Originally posted by who?-kid
Wow Whirly... Watchmen !

You just made it into my top five of "least hated KMC-members"

My previous sig was also Alan Moore it was Miracleman which is even better imo.

If you haven't read it Who? Kid check this out

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
My previous sig was also Alan Moore it was Miracleman which is even better imo.

If you haven't read it Who? Kid check this out

and this

Who was the main artist of Miracleman?

Originally posted by Solidus Snake
y'all remember the uber violent marvel UK


Indeed Dez Skinn and co were great, they gave us Alan Moore

Whoa...

i must be the only one who liked onslaught...

and i hate the x-men being overrated...

yes...

Originally posted by who?-kid
Wow Whirly... Watchmen !

You just made it into my top five of "least hated KMC-members"

Who are the other four?

I really didn't feel like reading three pages of this, so if this point has already been addressed, forgive me.

A lot of it had to do with the technology they were using. While Image and Malibu (remember them?) were tearing it up, using new printing technology, better inks and paper quality, etc. etc. Marvel may as well have stayed in the 60s regarding those terms. They had some great artists, but if those artists' pencils are inked and colored using substandard materials, and then printed on substandard paper, it's going to look not all that good.

Oh yeah. Rob Liefeld too.

No thats new, its mostly been about onslaught, you made an interesting point...

Originally posted by brainchild81
No. They are funny as hell though. Seen this before? Saint Spidey

lol u got anymore of any of the stories. I like the one where hawkeye thinks he has a memory eraser arrow when it is a regular arrow which kills people.

Originally posted by willRules
In the top ten most popular comic books sold today in America, At number one is a superman Comic. Marvel have a the most comics in the top ten though which includes ( I think) at least......2 or 3 X titles.

Ever since Jim Lee started drawing Superman he has been in that top slot, when he did Batman hush that went to the top slot and when he returned to superman that became the top slot again.

So DC owns the no.1 most popular comic but Marvel is the one raking in the cash at the moment..............

Originally posted by ScarletSpider
I really didn't feel like reading three pages of this, so if this point has already been addressed, forgive me.

A lot of it had to do with the technology they were using. While Image and Malibu (remember them?) were tearing it up, using new printing technology, better inks and paper quality, etc. etc. Marvel may as well have stayed in the 60s regarding those terms. They had some great artists, but if those artists' pencils are inked and colored using substandard materials, and then printed on substandard paper, it's going to look not all that good.

Oh yeah. Rob Liefeld too.


Yes Valiant (who were the best of that lot in my opinion) etc did break up the market initially, I think as a result of the silliness of the nineties the general quality has improved. Do you agree?

okay...here's the down-low fo all you peeps....


marvel comics had obviously built up a decent sized fanbase by the 90's, up to around the early 80's comics for the most part were centralized to selling primarily IN COMIC STORES......however during this time period the industry experienced the effects of the anti hero addition to a comic book roster....dark heroes were new and intriguing...they also attracted a whole new variety of readers the popularity of comic books began to grow in proportion thus comic books were located in grocery stores, 7/11, and other establishments

..... With decent popularity...came the collecters.....collecters went out to buy comic books to capitalize on their popularity and make an investment by buying them.... Marvel saw the huge upsurge of buyers for the books...Marvel became overzealous, and began to print literally millions of copies of any given issue....as we all know..the more adundance a comic appears in...the less it's worth. Collecters drifted away as the drop in value of such items became more and more apparent, and much like any other fad, comic books had moved past the peak of their popularity to the generation of youngsters at the time..... Now marvel found themselves with litereally millions and millions of prints....but only a third of the buying base they had before...they lost a huge some of money....comics where pulled out of grocery stores and such and were again restricted t comic book stores for sale.......marvel went bakrupt because they lost a ton of money here..and on top of that made horrible story archs (spidey clones,) that fans didn't want to read and eventually neglected altogether, when the left over fanbase became slim...it was the fanboys that kept the books' income alive....

this is partially why marvel prints for books like ultimate spidey and xmen are so limited in thier numbers of printings..they're still playing katchup...

Same comic-- 4 different covers and they're all collectable!

Basic economics. When something is rare, it is worth more. When you flood the market with a commody it goes down in value. Collectors think comics are valuable so they buy 2, 3, 4 different copies... and the companies print more. This goes on until people realize, hey, these aren't the mint condition $1,000 comics, and you aren't going to become an instant millionaire from having these, they aren't worth jack on resale. So people stopped buying them and the industry crashed.

Yes, specifically productions wise. After Marvel bought up Malibu, their art production increased greatly. I think also the looming spectre of bankruptcy made the focus on good story telling.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
Yea, stupid secondary mutations and stuff.

I liked it when the xmen were more street level, and not as much of gods, you know what I mean.

Then they weakened juggernaut. Amen, my man.

The fact that they weren't the most powerful, or weren't the most important team around, and that they're purpose was to handle mutant affairs and work to bring humans and mutants together, was the real appeal...but now that's all but lost.

These days, stories pander to the needs of overbearing fanboys.

We have Storm drawing energy from stars, Magneto opening wormholes, Wolverine can heal his way out of anything, we have an uber-powerful version of Gambit, (Sun-god or something, I don't know), there's a 'Godlike' Cable, and the shit just goes on and on. The icing on the cake is of course the Phoenix. Don't get me wrong, I like the Phoenix...I liked it when it was used in it's major story arc back in the 70's, and I don't mind if it's used sparingly, but now it seems to be all over the place...embroiled in every storlyline, (ie. Phoenix Whitehot Room). rolleyes1

I'm a huge fan of this new House of M stuff...and made the mistake of picking up Uncanny #462. What a bunch of contrived gibberish...Phoenix this, Phoenix that, STFU ALREADY!!!!1

Fantastic Four HoM is far superior in terms of story-telling...due to the fact that there's an actual coherent story involved. I don't plan to buy Uncanny #463.

Wait, wait, you BOUGHT an X-men comic!? Shame on you.

Indeed, shame.

I bought it looking for HoM quality, but found none. Instead, was treated to a barrage of mutie garbage...Claremont style!

Oh man, sorry to hear that.

House of m could be an interesting story but it all revolves round Wolvie like everything else........................

uxm 462 is a great story....

man

it showed the other effects of wanda's reality warping plus it tells a story on it's own

i bet if the writer aint claremont yall be talking bout how great the story was

grow up kiddies!

its nothing special... and after the recent mojo shite who knows what they'll do next...

uncanny is not the comic it used to be...

Originally posted by Pointinel
i bet if the writer aint claremont yall be talking bout how great the story was Maybe if the writer wasn't Claremont, we'd actually see a real story.

Originally posted by Lord S
Amen, my man.

The fact that they weren't the most powerful, or weren't the most important team around, and that they're purpose was to handle mutant affairs and work to bring humans and mutants together, was the real appeal...but now that's all but lost.

These days, stories pander to the needs of overbearing fanboys.

We have Storm drawing energy from stars, Magneto opening wormholes, Wolverine can heal his way out of anything, we have an uber-powerful version of Gambit, (Sun-god or something, I don't know), there's a 'Godlike' Cable, and the shit just goes on and on. The icing on the cake is of course the Phoenix. Don't get me wrong, I like the Phoenix...I liked it when it was used in it's major story arc back in the 70's, and I don't mind if it's used sparingly, but now it seems to be all over the place...embroiled in every storlyline, (ie. Phoenix Whitehot Room). rolleyes1

I'm a huge fan of this new House of M stuff...and made the mistake of picking up Uncanny #462. What a bunch of contrived gibberish...Phoenix this, Phoenix that, STFU ALREADY!!!!1

Fantastic Four HoM is far superior in terms of story-telling...due to the fact that there's an actual coherent story involved. I don't plan to buy Uncanny #463.

Better hope the fanboys don't see this, come to think of it, comic versus is dominated by x fanboys.

Notice how the less popular characters get left behind to boot.

The X-Men, (Wolverine in particular), have turned into Marvel's cash cow. Storylines and characters don't have to make sense anymore, as long as they awe the clueless little fanboys.

What started out as a noble concept, was totally overblown by the 90's, and it won't get better as long as fanboys want more and more. Eventually Marvel will give in and have guys like Apocalypse bitchslapping Thanos and even Galactus, and then the X-fanboys will be in our faces saying, "I told you so!"

Originally posted by Lord S
The X-Men, (Wolverine in particular), have turned into Marvel's cash cow. Storylines and characters don't have to make sense anymore, as long as they awe the clueless little fanboys.

What started out as a noble concept, was totally overblown by the 90's, and it won't get better as long as fanboys want more and more. Eventually Marvel will give in and have guys like Apocalypse bitchslapping Thanos and even Galactus, and then the X-fanboys will be in our faces saying, "I told you so!"

Agreed there, the fanboys are pathetic now...

You know, you guys can say all you want
about the Wolverine fanboys....
at least they get their own parade!!!!!



FANBOYS ON PARADE!!!!!

http://www.terragalleria.com/images/us-ca/usca9380.jpeg

Are you implying that they take their own homoeroticness and manifest it into a comic character?

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
Are you implying that they take their own homoeroticness and manifest it into a comic character?
Why yes....that's EXACTLY what I'm implying.....
What other explanation is there for an unwavering obsession
with a hairy, burly, cigar-chomping canadian.......

LOL

Its funny cos its true

A lot of good points were brought up here in the past pages.

There was that huge influx of those chronium, hologram, special edition covers and so on that just made Marvel basically outprice itself. (The real blame IMO lies with Image, who made probably 8 different variant covers for each edition of their comics). And as it was rightfully stated, when people were buying these comics as investments and Marvel kept printing out more and more because of the demand, eventually there's that point of saturation where they become worthless and everybody loses. I remember reading on Wizard one time that when the comic book market bubble burst Marvel went from over 140 monthly titles to around 40 or so. Can you imagine how many artists, writers, inkers, etc this effected?

I also agree with those nonstop extra-huge crossover Marvel events that involved buying around 40 comics at a time in order to get the full story. Even though they still continue up until today in all of the major companies (Identity Crisis, Civil War, Worlds at War) at least now there's the surge of TPB where you can just wait and buy the full story at your own comfort and at a discounted price too.

IMO I think Image helped make the whole comic industry come down in the nineties. Too many variant covers, heavy emphasis on quantity over quality, too much focus on the comics as investments, too many startup comics with all the buzz in the world only to go to 10 issues because of lazy creators, and too many creators who would start their comics with the immediate intention of marketing it as toys, movies, cartoons, video games and so on instead of actually focusing on the comics themselves.

Originally posted by systemshock2
A lot of good points were brought up here in the past pages.

There was that huge influx of those chronium, hologram, special edition covers and so on that just made Marvel basically outprice itself. (The real blame IMO lies with Image, who made probably 8 different variant covers for each edition of their comics). And as it was rightfully stated, when people were buying these comics as investments and Marvel kept printing out more and more because of the demand, eventually there's that point of saturation where they become worthless and everybody loses. I remember reading on Wizard one time that when the comic book market bubble burst Marvel went from over 140 monthly titles to around 40 or so. Can you imagine how many artists, writers, inkers, etc this effected?

I also agree with those nonstop extra-huge crossover Marvel events that involved buying around 40 comics at a time in order to get the full story. Even though they still continue up until today in all of the major companies (Identity Crisis, Civil War, Worlds at War) at least now there's the surge of TPB where you can just wait and buy the full story at your own comfort and at a discounted price too.

IMO I think Image helped make the whole comic industry come down in the nineties. Too many variant covers, heavy emphasis on quantity over quality, too much focus on the comics as investments, too many startup comics with all the buzz in the world only to go to 10 issues because of lazy creators, and too many creators who would start their comics with the immediate intention of marketing it as toys, movies, cartoons, video games and so on instead of actually focusing on the comics themselves.

You do realize that this thread is over a year old, right?

People let's not forget some of the other garbage that Marvel released around the same time -

The Clone Saga & Infinity Crusade were just as bad as Onslaught.