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Who'll win?

Um, Maul. Obi-Wan supposively isn't as good as he looks in TPM if you ask most anyone here but me, and ROTJ Luke sucks harder than the new Hoover vacuum.

OH EM GEE!111 BUT LUKE BEATED VADAR AND HES THE BEST SITH LORD EVA!!1!!1!11 LUKE COULD PWN MAUL LAWLZ.

I thought they are making a trend towards not using suction...

Well if they are, they need to update so I know to use another analogy. Like this...

Luke sucks like a retard on a broken straw.

Ouch! Harsh...

I like the mental image behind that one...

Luke sucks dry balls ( I don't where that came from).

Supressed fetish.

It really depends on how the straw is broken.

At the bottom, like always.

It would be much more interesting if it was towards the top, as the liquid would flow out and never reach the retard's mouth.

True. Let's change that analogy.

Yes, that may be in order.

maul would own, padawan obi, is prolly better than prime luke lol. my opinion though

Obi-Wan in TPM defeated Maul and ROTJ Luke has been declared a Jedi Knight by Yoda. Maul gets defeated.

Maul. Obi-Wan sucks when fighting with another Jedi.

Obi would give Maul trouble, but ROTJ Luke won't help much. Maul takes this.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Maul. Obi-Wan sucks when fighting with another Jedi.
Yeah, he was a mess when he fought Anakin.

Maul lost from Obi Wan and had a hard time when Obi was angry, but before that he controlled the fight. He would do so again and he would take out Luke fast. After that it would take some more time and a hard fight but he would take Luke.

Yoda called ROTJ Luke a jedi. Not a jedi knight, unless I have the special edited version where he doesn't say knight. And Yoda would have probably told Luke Skywalker he was as powerful as an ancient Sith lord if it would have gotten his ass going towards the conclusion of the movie. I still do not get where people compare Luke with a jedi trained from birth to at least 23-29 years of age (standard for humanoids) and who passed tests set by the council themselves!

But oh well, I'm not some fanboy. What do I know?

Yeah, he was a mess when he fought Anakin.

1. HObi never fought a Jedi, at the timeAnakin was Vader, a Sith. And I meant he sucks at fighting alongside another Jedi in a duel. He did better against maul alone than with Qui-Gon, he would have done much better aginst Dooku alone (in ROTS) than with Anakin.

Bullshit,

Dooku himself calls them a great team and fears them more together then either one of them alone. Obi Wan alone would fall much faster, he and Obi Wan work together as experts.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yeah, he was a mess when he fought Anakin.

1. HObi never fought a Jedi, at the timeAnakin was Vader, a Sith. And I meant he sucks at fighting alongside another Jedi in a duel. He did better against maul alone than with Qui-Gon, he would have done much better aginst Dooku alone (in ROTS) than with Anakin.


This is a pile of shit and dude learn how to use the

mauls got this because rotj luke is worse than padawan obi and also maul could have beaten quigon and obiwan but they couldnt have obiwan die or who would have trained yoda but anyway i go with maul because he took out a master

They are a great team. But not when going up against one lightsaber wielding enemy 2 on 1. If Obi truely fights better with another Jedi than alone then that means if fighting Dooku alone he'd have got wasted in 3 seconds, which I highly dout.

Originally posted by DarthMaul9123
mauls got this because rotj luke is worse than padawan obi and also maul could have beaten quigon and obiwan but they couldnt have obiwan die or who would have trained yoda but anyway i go with maul because he took out a master

How is Luke weaker than Obi-wan? He squarely defeated Vader by this time. Luke also is a JEDI KNIGHT by ROTJ. GL says both of those things.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
How is Luke weaker than Obi-wan? He squarely defeated Vader by this time. Luke also is a JEDI KNIGHT by ROTJ. GL says both of those things.

Jesus, Glentract. Are you arguing that Luke Skywalker, with all of his two hours or so onboard the Falcon playing with a remote and perhaps a week with Yoda in the swamp is a full fledged jedi knight as ordained by the council? No. Both Yoda and GL said Luke was a -jedi-, not that he was a jedi knight. And to say Luke is on par with a real jedi knight from the old republic is ludicrous and unfounded. Period.

And please don't say "Well, he beat up Vader", because that was a conflicted battle where Vader didn't want his son to be killed; he wanted him turned or captured. If Vader wanted Luke dead, there would be a far more grim ending to ROTJ.... or even ESB.

Gosh Janus, get out of your state of denial. The movie's called Return of the JEDI! Who else is it talking about? Yoda calls him a Jedi, the Emperor calls him a Jedi, Lucas calls him a Jedi. Who else do you want to do it, Ragnos? How many times do they say Jedi knight in the OT? Not many, they simply say Jedi and what do you think they're talking about if not a knight?

Luke has 4 years since ANH, not exactly two hours. He uses multiple Force powers just as well as most other Jedi, (with the possible exception of blaster deflection, but he was by himself and not against worthless battle droids.) The guy defeated Vader in under a minute, no, Vader wasn't trying you're right, but Luke was trying even less than Vader was! Hence when he says: "I will not fight you" as compared to Vader's: "He will join us or die". He had Vader at his mercy TWICE! If Luke had been trying to kill Vader, Vader would've died even quicker than the 40 seconds it took Luke to beat him.

Look at his power in resistance to lightning. Count Dooku's one handed 2 second lightning blast kept AOTC Anakin out of the picture for a minute or more. That same blast was pathetically blocked by AOTC Obi with one hand on his lightsaber, Yoda even reflected it back at Dooku.

Now the Emperor's lightning Mace Windu was barely able to hold back with both hands on his lightsaber, and Yoda barely held it back with his hands. This same guy shocked Luke with both hands (not one like Dooku) for a good minute or more. This same lightning about 5 seconds of it eventually killed Vader. some 10 seconds after the shocking stopped, Luke gets up and drags his heavy father all the way to a shuttle.

Now, some of you think that Anakin hitting the wall was why he stayed down so long. Nope, watch it again, not only does he not hit the wall very hard, but he doesn't clutch his head or any part of his body, instead, smoke is coming up from his body. Earlier he fell out of a speeding speeder, clutched his side for a second, and was back to normal.

Let's review:

Anakin: Shocked by a much much weaker one handed blast for about 5 seconds and he did hit the wall, left him down and not doing anything for a minute or so.

Luke: Shocked by a much much stronger two handed blast for about a minute or more, and he gets up after about 10 seconds and drags Vader to a shuttle.

Luke kills a rancor without a weapon, takes down most of jabba's henchmen single-handedly, and as I said earlier, uses his force powers just as good as AOTC Obi or Qui-Gon except Luke also uses Force choke.

Janus you do know Luke wasn't sitting on his butt for 4 years right? He was training, as in Shadows of the Empire and more. And no, he had little training, but that doesn't mean he doesn't learn quick. At the start of ESB he has trouble pulling his lightsaber out of the snow with the Force. By the end of the movie, he is handstanding with Yoda, lifting large crates and R2 with the Force while witnessing future events with the Force.

Look at Kyle Katarn for instance, he goes from a non Force user to a Jedi that beats seven dark Jedi, each stronger than the last with the last being Jerec who is about a Sith Lord and went through the valley of the Jedi. Kyle's only training is from a spirit and maybe a couple weeks or so. That's it. It can be done, and if you only go by training why wouldn't every older Jedi be more powerful than every younger Jedi? Oh and if Luke's training is so abysmal and he's so weak, how does he become so powerful so quickly? He soon defeats the Emperor's clone with no additional training, how I wonder with his "so little training"? He becomes a Jedi master and opens an academy teaching several students, restoring the Jedi, how I wonder if he was just a Jedi but not a Jedi knight like they were saying? Here's the answer, Janus is wrong and they were also too lazy to say knight every time.

No you're not a Luke fanboy Janus, but you're the exact opposite, a non Luke fanboy I guess. You throw out everything Lucas and other Jedi say with pathetic reasons, say he's so weak with no cause and refuse to even say he's a Jedi. That's fanboyism without question (except not liking the character). Watch ROTJ again with a clear and logical mind, Luke isn't as weak as you're pretending.


As for the fight, I think it's pretty close and Maul could probably separate them and win but like Fishy said, it would be hard.

^ Good job Revan! Only thing I gotta say is, about the well there's no doubt Sidious's is stronger than Dooku's as Yoda could hardly block it with his hands and Mace could hardly block it with his saber, but when Dooku hit Anakin he blasted him with everything he had, when Sidious was zapping Luke I think he was going extremely easy on him to torture him. Make it nice and long and painful...

It's hammer time, dammit. I am getting really sick of the sudden "ROTJ Luke can take any reasonable Force user" trend around these parts. A man should know when he's beaten or at least without a good argument. The bullshit you lined this page with is a good example.

I think they're talking about jedi, honestly (in regards to your first paragraph). Even if Yoda dubbed Luke with a lightsaber (Which I'd pay to see) and made him a jedi knight, his experience and knowledge isn't comparable at all to official jedi knights from the old republic era. Not even close. They were raised from birth, and honed their jedi ways for close to two and a half decades before even becoming a knight. Thus your average OR Jedi has easily more experience, and of a more varied type. How you could assume that doesn't make a difference is beyond me. Yes, Yoda said "The last of the jedi you will be". He did not say "Oh, btw, you're as pimp as OBi-Wan was in AOTC... at least. Here, light me a cig, son". Anyone can declare anyone else a title for any reason whatsoever. Even GL can call Luke a Jedi, it doesn't make him on par with someone who actually earned the damn title. This is like saying Einstein's lazy son, who only went to school for four years tops (debateable attendance and all) and was primarily into psychology, not physics (Just as Luke was initially into pilotting, not the Force and jedi arts) will be better than someone with ten to twenty years more experience (essentially, a master's, PhD) just because the headmaster calls him a physicist.

One, show me where it says officially that Luke Skywalker had four years of Jedi training. After that, show me how it makes the odds in Luke's favor. If you can't, just please... drop the goddamn issue. And as for your rendition of the battle, whatever. You and I and everyone else knows that OT Vader moves nothing like anyone else, and yes, both were conflicted in that battle, but it was Luke who won because he was acting out of love for his sister and hate for his enemy, and Vader who lost because... he held up his lightsaber feebly to fend off his son, making no moves to level the playing field. How does -this- prove that Luke can take say, Darth Maul? Someone who has killed at the very least two jedi masters.

"Look at his resistance to Force lightning". Jesus. Drop this already, would you? Mace had similar resistance when his guard was -totally- down after he lost an arm and was more in pain than Luke was. You should entertain the possiblity that Sidious can alter or control his lightning enough to torture and hurt instead of to kill. If he couldn't, he'd suck as a sith lord, because torturing's where it's at. But since that viewpoint would put grease on the straws you're trying to grab, I can see why you won't even admit that much. And again, his Force lightning experience is heaped up on the plate. Proving for this duel? Nothing. If ROTJ Luke can parry blades with his hands, I'll consider that a plus in a duel. But for now, let's stick to something that isn't off in left field. K? hx

"Luke kills a rancor without a weapon, takes down most of jabba's henchmen single-handedly, and as I said earlier, uses his force powers just as good as AOTC Obi or Qui-Gon except Luke also uses Force choke."

Let me correct this poorly written statement: Luke throws a rock to activate a button to fortunately kill a rancor, or else his ass was lookin' toast. He engages in combat above Jabba's sailbarge, and manages to get shot while fighting what had to be maybe six guys on the top of the barge. And in your opinion, uses Force powers befitting a Jedi Master.

Wow. Here, hit that pipe again. You missed some. ER, Luke was as panicky as it gets in the rancor pit. He ended up in there because his panic took over him when he realized he could't bargain or force persuade Jabba the Hutt and he failed to Force jump out of the way! Do you honestly.... HONESTLY think that Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon would have fared so badly? And considering that both of those force users, even by TPM, can deflect streams of droid blaster bolts, while Luke got singed in midcombat with six lowly guardsmen? This whole scenario was almost a botch by Skywalker. He was lucky the god that is Artoo kept his lightsaber, or he would have been ****ed proper.

Next paragraph. Luke learn quick? Perhaps. Quick enough to defeat a dedicated jedi, or sith combatant? I doubt it. And if you think you can prove otherwise with this spiel of BS so far, you need to take a debate class. You don't have a damn thing in that entire body of work that is even remotely a good point. Yes, Revan could meditate a few chairs and a datapad within a week. So does this mean that when he was about four years into training, he could kill Sith apprentices and average jedi? No, it doesn't. Levitation doesn't prove anything. In case you're mistaken, we're looking for lightsaber skills, since that will be what ultimately decides this battle. You haven't given me one instance of Luke being an exceptional duellist, nor any case where his style or foresight was more exceptional than TPM Obi-Wan or AOTC Anakin, who were mere padawans and not even knights as you claim Luke was.

Oh god, this next paragraph is a mess. First you are arguing that Luke can beat a Force user in combat because Kyle Katarn (a hard edge mercenary who is much older than Luke and has more ground experience in combat) killed a bunch of dark jedi in a bloody video game. Wow. That proves... nothing. Nothing for Luke, anyways. Then you go on to say he "beat the Emperor's clone with little training." Did you actually read that book, or are you just going by hearsay, because I remember Luke being dominated by the Emperor reborn, and it took some help from friends and family to save his ass... and just barely. And as for opening the academy... well hell, that was after twenty years approx. of there being no other jedi to compete with his high profileness (and add the fact that NJO is one big Luke suckfest) so of course he could open a temple... with Republic approval. And I imagine I could go and open South Carolina's only Cat Tossing Academy, it doesn't make me the damn best thing since sliced bread. Opening and running an academy does not automatically grant you badassness.... about twenty years earlier. So yeah, way to argue way off topic there, ER, and still prove nothing.

No you're not a Luke fanboy Janus, but you're the exact opposite, a non Luke fanboy I guess. You throw out everything Lucas and other Jedi say with pathetic reasons, say he's so weak with no cause and refuse to even say he's a Jedi. That's fanboyism without question (except not liking the character). Watch ROTJ again with a clear and logical mind, Luke isn't as weak as you're pretending.

So because I haven't seen one damn thing in my entire life of watching the movies every year, twice a year minimal, and having watched the PT many times and read the Eu novels of that particular era... and then all my experience and such from there, and because I don't think Luke can take this battle I am what? The opposite of Fanboy? Antifanboy?

Let me get this straight: you just went and gave me what is perhaps the worst possible argument to support Luke and then you call me an antifanboy because I don't see things your way? No, ER... I see what is before me, and unlike you I don't try to rewrite reality or even fantasy reality with what I wish had occured. ROTJ Luke is not ready for a real fight with a real warrior and force user, and you have shown me nothing to indicate otherwise. If me being skeptical because there's no proof is being "antifanboy" well then, I am antifanboy. And you're a fanboy. So please, learn to argue a point and not just say "Well, he did this... and that... and this... and GL says so. Therefore, he wins a battle totally unrelated to any of the points I listed."

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
It's hammer time, dammit. I am getting really sick of the sudden "ROTJ Luke can take any reasonable Force user" trend around these parts. A man should know when he's beaten or at least without a good argument. The bullshit you lined this page with is a good example.

I think they're talking about jedi, honestly (in regards to your first paragraph). Even if Yoda dubbed Luke with a lightsaber (Which I'd pay to see) and made him a jedi knight, his experience and knowledge isn't comparable at all to official jedi knights from the old republic era. Not even close. They were raised from birth, and honed their jedi ways for close to two and a half decades before even becoming a knight. Thus your average OR Jedi has easily more experience, and of a more varied type. How you could assume that doesn't make a difference is beyond me. Yes, Yoda said "The last of the jedi you will be". He did not say "Oh, btw, you're as pimp as OBi-Wan was in AOTC... at least. Here, light me a cig, son". Anyone can declare anyone else a title for any reason whatsoever. Even GL can call Luke a Jedi, it doesn't make him on par with someone who actually earned the damn title. This is like saying Einstein's lazy son, who only went to school for four years tops (debateable attendance and all) and was primarily into psychology, not physics (Just as Luke was initially into pilotting, not the Force and jedi arts) will be better than someone with ten to twenty years more experience (essentially, a master's, PhD) just because the headmaster calls him a physicist.

One, show me where it says officially that Luke Skywalker had four years of Jedi training. After that, show me how it makes the odds in Luke's favor. If you can't, just please... drop the goddamn issue. And as for your rendition of the battle, whatever. You and I and everyone else knows that OT Vader moves nothing like anyone else, and yes, both were conflicted in that battle, but it was Luke who won because he was acting out of love for his sister and hate for his enemy, and Vader who lost because... he held up his lightsaber feebly to fend off his son, making no moves to level the playing field. How does -this- prove that Luke can take say, Darth Maul? Someone who has killed at the very least two jedi masters.

"Look at his resistance to Force lightning". Jesus. Drop this already, would you? Mace had similar resistance when his guard was -totally- down after he lost an arm and was more in pain than Luke was. You should entertain the possiblity that Sidious can alter or control his lightning enough to torture and hurt instead of to kill. If he couldn't, he'd suck as a sith lord, because torturing's where it's at. But since that viewpoint would put grease on the straws you're trying to grab, I can see why you won't even admit that much. And again, his Force lightning experience is heaped up on the plate. Proving for this duel? Nothing. If ROTJ Luke can parry blades with his hands, I'll consider that a plus in a duel. But for now, let's stick to something that isn't off in left field. K? hx

"Luke kills a rancor without a weapon, takes down most of jabba's henchmen single-handedly, and as I said earlier, uses his force powers just as good as AOTC Obi or Qui-Gon except Luke also uses Force choke."

Let me correct this poorly written statement: Luke throws a rock to activate a button to fortunately kill a rancor, or else his ass was lookin' toast. He engages in combat above Jabba's sailbarge, and manages to get shot while fighting what had to be maybe six guys on the top of the barge. And in your opinion, uses Force powers befitting a Jedi Master.

Wow. Here, hit that pipe again. You missed some. ER, Luke was as panicky as it gets in the rancor pit. He ended up in there because his panic took over him when he realized he could't bargain or force persuade Jabba the Hutt and he failed to Force jump out of the way! Do you honestly.... HONESTLY think that Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon would have fared so badly? And considering that both of those force users, even by TPM, can deflect streams of droid blaster bolts, while Luke got singed in midcombat with six lowly guardsmen? This whole scenario was almost a botch by Skywalker. He was lucky the god that is Artoo kept his lightsaber, or he would have been ****ed proper.

Next paragraph. Luke learn quick? Perhaps. Quick enough to defeat a dedicated jedi, or sith combatant? I doubt it. And if you think you can prove otherwise with this spiel of BS so far, you need to take a debate class. You don't have a damn thing in that entire body of work that is even remotely a good point. Yes, Revan could meditate a few chairs and a datapad within a week. So does this mean that when he was about four years into training, he could kill Sith apprentices and average jedi? No, it doesn't. Levitation doesn't prove anything. In case you're mistaken, we're looking for lightsaber skills, since that will be what ultimately decides this battle. You haven't given me one instance of Luke being an exceptional duellist, nor any case where his style or foresight was more exceptional than TPM Obi-Wan or AOTC Anakin, who were mere padawans and not even knights as you claim Luke was.

Oh god, this next paragraph is a mess. First you are arguing that Luke can beat a Force user in combat because Kyle Katarn (a hard edge mercenary who is much older than Luke and has more ground experience in combat) killed a bunch of dark jedi in a bloody video game. Wow. That proves... nothing. Nothing for Luke, anyways. Then you go on to say he "beat the Emperor's clone with little training." Did you actually read that book, or are you just going by hearsay, because I remember Luke being dominated by the Emperor reborn, and it took some help from friends and family to save his ass... and just barely. And as for opening the academy... well hell, that was after twenty years approx. of there being no other jedi to compete with his high profileness (and add the fact that NJO is one big Luke suckfest) so of course he could open a temple... with Republic approval. And I imagine I could go and open South Carolina's only Cat Tossing Academy, it doesn't make me the damn best thing since sliced bread. Opening and running an academy does not automatically grant you badassness.... about twenty years earlier. So yeah, way to argue way off topic there, ER, and still prove nothing.

No you're not a Luke fanboy Janus, but you're the exact opposite, a non Luke fanboy I guess. You throw out everything Lucas and other Jedi say with pathetic reasons, say he's so weak with no cause and refuse to even say he's a Jedi. That's fanboyism without question (except not liking the character). Watch ROTJ again with a clear and logical mind, Luke isn't as weak as you're pretending.

So because I haven't seen one damn thing in my entire life of watching the movies every year, twice a year minimal, and having watched the PT many times and read the Eu novels of that particular era... and then all my experience and such from there, and because I don't think Luke can take this battle I am what? The opposite of Fanboy? Antifanboy?

Let me get this straight: you just went and gave me what is perhaps the worst possible argument to support Luke and then you call me an antifanboy because I don't see things your way? No, ER... I see what is before me, and unlike you I don't try to rewrite reality or even fantasy reality with what I wish had occured. ROTJ Luke is not ready for a real fight with a real warrior and force user, and you have shown me nothing to indicate otherwise. If me being skeptical because there's no proof is being "antifanboy" well then, I am antifanboy. And you're a fanboy. So please, learn to argue a point and not just say "Well, he did this... and that... and this... and GL says so. Therefore, he wins a battle totally unrelated to any of the points I listed."


Janus just owned your ass.

And for the pic (Which wouldn't fit)

Here's a question:

Do we have any evidence to suggest that ROTJ Luke is greater than TPM Qui-Gon other than beating a mechanized Vader who put up very little effort to defend himself?

I agree with Emperor Revan. I think you have just come to hate Luke in general. You hate him when he is a whiny little kid and still weak and then we he grows up and is kickass you start to cry because you can't accept he is good.

About the temple, I think you should just stop talking about that. You keep bashing the NJO, but I don't think you know anything about it. It was less than a decade before he opened the academy. Not "twenty years". Another thing, you said Luke is crap because he wanted to be a pilot. Anakin was the same and he became pretty freakin good, so that is a nice little steaming pile of crap.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
It's hammer time, dammit. I am getting really sick of the sudden "ROTJ Luke can take any reasonable Force user" trend around these parts. A man should know when he's beaten or at least without a good argument. The bullshit you lined this page with is a good example.

I think they're talking about jedi, honestly (in regards to your first paragraph). Even if Yoda dubbed Luke with a lightsaber (Which I'd pay to see) and made him a jedi knight, his experience and knowledge isn't comparable at all to official jedi knights from the old republic era. Not even close. They were raised from birth, and honed their jedi ways for close to two and a half decades before even becoming a knight. Thus your average OR Jedi has easily more experience, and of a more varied type. How you could assume that doesn't make a difference is beyond me. Yes, Yoda said "The last of the jedi you will be". He did not say "Oh, btw, you're as pimp as OBi-Wan was in AOTC... at least. Here, light me a cig, son". Anyone can declare anyone else a title for any reason whatsoever. Even GL can call Luke a Jedi, it doesn't make him on par with someone who actually earned the damn title. This is like saying Einstein's lazy son, who only went to school for four years tops (debateable attendance and all) and was primarily into psychology, not physics (Just as Luke was initially into pilotting, not the Force and jedi arts) will be better than someone with ten to twenty years more experience (essentially, a master's, PhD) just because the headmaster calls him a physicist.

One, show me where it says officially that Luke Skywalker had four years of Jedi training. After that, show me how it makes the odds in Luke's favor. If you can't, just please... drop the goddamn issue. And as for your rendition of the battle, whatever. You and I and everyone else knows that OT Vader moves nothing like anyone else, and yes, both were conflicted in that battle, but it was Luke who won because he was acting out of love for his sister and hate for his enemy, and Vader who lost because... he held up his lightsaber feebly to fend off his son, making no moves to level the playing field. How does -this- prove that Luke can take say, Darth Maul? Someone who has killed at the very least two jedi masters.

"Look at his resistance to Force lightning". Jesus. Drop this already, would you? Mace had similar resistance when his guard was -totally- down after he lost an arm and was more in pain than Luke was. You should entertain the possiblity that Sidious can alter or control his lightning enough to torture and hurt instead of to kill. If he couldn't, he'd suck as a sith lord, because torturing's where it's at. But since that viewpoint would put grease on the straws you're trying to grab, I can see why you won't even admit that much. And again, his Force lightning experience is heaped up on the plate. Proving for this duel? Nothing. If ROTJ Luke can parry blades with his hands, I'll consider that a plus in a duel. But for now, let's stick to something that isn't off in left field. K? hx

"Luke kills a rancor without a weapon, takes down most of jabba's henchmen single-handedly, and as I said earlier, uses his force powers just as good as AOTC Obi or Qui-Gon except Luke also uses Force choke."

Let me correct this poorly written statement: Luke throws a rock to activate a button to fortunately kill a rancor, or else his ass was lookin' toast. He engages in combat above Jabba's sailbarge, and manages to get shot while fighting what had to be maybe six guys on the top of the barge. And in your opinion, uses Force powers befitting a Jedi Master.

Wow. Here, hit that pipe again. You missed some. ER, Luke was as panicky as it gets in the rancor pit. He ended up in there because his panic took over him when he realized he could't bargain or force persuade Jabba the Hutt and he failed to Force jump out of the way! Do you honestly.... HONESTLY think that Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon would have fared so badly? And considering that both of those force users, even by TPM, can deflect streams of droid blaster bolts, while Luke got singed in midcombat with six lowly guardsmen? This whole scenario was almost a botch by Skywalker. He was lucky the god that is Artoo kept his lightsaber, or he would have been ****ed proper.

Next paragraph. Luke learn quick? Perhaps. Quick enough to defeat a dedicated jedi, or sith combatant? I doubt it. And if you think you can prove otherwise with this spiel of BS so far, you need to take a debate class. You don't have a damn thing in that entire body of work that is even remotely a good point. Yes, Revan could meditate a few chairs and a datapad within a week. So does this mean that when he was about four years into training, he could kill Sith apprentices and average jedi? No, it doesn't. Levitation doesn't prove anything. In case you're mistaken, we're looking for lightsaber skills, since that will be what ultimately decides this battle. You haven't given me one instance of Luke being an exceptional duellist, nor any case where his style or foresight was more exceptional than TPM Obi-Wan or AOTC Anakin, who were mere padawans and not even knights as you claim Luke was.

Oh god, this next paragraph is a mess. First you are arguing that Luke can beat a Force user in combat because Kyle Katarn (a hard edge mercenary who is much older than Luke and has more ground experience in combat) killed a bunch of dark jedi in a bloody video game. Wow. That proves... nothing. Nothing for Luke, anyways. Then you go on to say he "beat the Emperor's clone with little training." Did you actually read that book, or are you just going by hearsay, because I remember Luke being dominated by the Emperor reborn, and it took some help from friends and family to save his ass... and just barely. And as for opening the academy... well hell, that was after twenty years approx. of there being no other jedi to compete with his high profileness (and add the fact that NJO is one big Luke suckfest) so of course he could open a temple... with Republic approval. And I imagine I could go and open South Carolina's only Cat Tossing Academy, it doesn't make me the damn best thing since sliced bread. Opening and running an academy does not automatically grant you badassness.... about twenty years earlier. So yeah, way to argue way off topic there, ER, and still prove nothing.

No you're not a Luke fanboy Janus, but you're the exact opposite, a non Luke fanboy I guess. You throw out everything Lucas and other Jedi say with pathetic reasons, say he's so weak with no cause and refuse to even say he's a Jedi. That's fanboyism without question (except not liking the character). Watch ROTJ again with a clear and logical mind, Luke isn't as weak as you're pretending.

So because I haven't seen one damn thing in my entire life of watching the movies every year, twice a year minimal, and having watched the PT many times and read the Eu novels of that particular era... and then all my experience and such from there, and because I don't think Luke can take this battle I am what? The opposite of Fanboy? Antifanboy?

Let me get this straight: you just went and gave me what is perhaps the worst possible argument to support Luke and then you call me an antifanboy because I don't see things your way? No, ER... I see what is before me, and unlike you I don't try to rewrite reality or even fantasy reality with what I wish had occured. ROTJ Luke is not ready for a real fight with a real warrior and force user, and you have shown me nothing to indicate otherwise. If me being skeptical because there's no proof is being "antifanboy" well then, I am antifanboy. And you're a fanboy. So please, learn to argue a point and not just say "Well, he did this... and that... and this... and GL says so. Therefore, he wins a battle totally unrelated to any of the points I listed."

Ouch! I hate to be the guy this message was intended for!

Originally posted by Illustrious
Here's a question:

Do we have any evidence to suggest that ROTJ Luke is greater than TPM Qui-Gon other than beating a mechanized Vader who put up very little effort to defend himself?

No, we don't, which is my biggest point that everyone is dodging. The issue here is on their side "How much Luke did, omg" and for me "WTF? How is it he can win this fight in lightsaber combat?" And this then shows up:

I agree with Emperor Revan. I think you have just come to hate Luke in general. You hate him when he is a whiny little kid and still weak and then we he grows up and is kickass you start to cry because you can't accept he is good.

About the temple, I think you should just stop talking about that. You keep bashing the NJO, but I don't think you know anything about it. It was less than a decade before he opened the academy. Not "twenty years". Another thing, you said Luke is crap because he wanted to be a pilot. Anakin was the same and he became pretty freakin good, so that is a nice little steaming pile of crap.

No, I actually kinda like Luke by ROTJ. I like his look and his calmness, and I think Luke had potential to grow into being a very good character, personality wise and in wisdom and power. I think the NJO series was taking the proverbial cash cow and twisting its utters to get the last drop out of the post-ROTJ era, and it's by all means very poorly thought out and written. But the issue here isn't my stance on Luke at all; it's my argument. And neither you or ER can refute my points nor make any for your own stance that hold to scrutiny. None.

And yes, I said Luke wanted to be a pilot. His sole training was in dusting crops until ANH. So before that time, he was not a jedi, jedi-in-training... he was not even a streetfighter, soldier, or even a swordsman. He was a farmboy. How many farmboys do you know who live on the edge of the world in some secluded farm and are amazing duellists? Please, if you're going to attack -one- sentence of my entire 10000 character argument against ER's rabid defense of someone who can't be defended in this case, get it right in context.

And I'm not exactly liking the little Axis of Unreason developing here with you and ER. Normally you can at least put up some good points, Glentract, although you make a whole lot of assumptions in battles... such as saying Sion and Kreia are about equal and thus Malak can take both. Debate is not about having an opinion; it's about having a viewpoint and successfully defending it. If you are taking a debate class (as you say) you will come to realize that ER argues in circles and dodges specific issues, instead trying to bump up the 'greatness' of his character he's defending (Which is either Luke or Revan) and not trying to prove or disprove on rather unbiased terms how the person would win -in a fight-. And to make things a step up worse, ER tends to go at it over and over again, the reasoning going full circle back to the points he was trying to slip past in the beginning. ER has no debating skills I've come up against, other than to try and undermine Revan or Luke's competition, bump up their supposed greatness, or undermine me. And now you're starting to do the same thing.

I am a sucky debater...one reason I hrardly ever give long arguments.

i don't remember ever saying that Sion and Kreia are equal. I do know that you should generally be able to back up what you say with quotes especially if you are talking about someone in the same group. Please quote me on that, or "successfully defend it".

ER has some good points. Luke's ability to block the force lightning is representative of his power. it wasn't as powerful as the lightning used on Mace or Yoda in ROTS, but it was at least as powerful as what Anakin got and he got it for a much longer time. Some things, like the unarmed combat against the Rancor is dumb, but for the most part it is good.



Janus, I am going to be honest with you. I think you are a nice guy, but for some time now, you have pretty much been the leader of this forum. Notice how no one really challenged what you said? I think you are quite surprised that someone, or two someones, aren't listening to you and you are pissed off by it. You arguments haven't been a lot better than the other ones around here and you pretty much just say ER is stupid and has no clue what he is talking about and then you say I am starting to act like him. This was the exact same in some thread about Luke vs. Bastila or something. Someone disagrees with you and all you can do is say that they are becoming a fanboy and starting to annoy you and undermine you? It's starting to piss me off and if I have to butt heads with you over it I will, but if you accept that other people can have opinions and disagree with you and then not try to make them look like fanboys in the process, I will have no problem with you.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
i don't remember ever saying that Sion and Kreia are equal. I do know that you should generally be able to back up what you say with quotes especially if you are talking about someone in the same group. Please quote me on that, or "successfully defend it".

ER has some good points. Luke's ability to block the force lightning is representative of his power. it wasn't as powerful as the lightning used on Mace or Yoda in ROTS, but it was at least as powerful as what Anakin got and he got it for a much longer time. Some things, like the unarmed combat against the Rancor is dumb, but for the most part it is good.



Janus, I am going to be honest with you. I think you are a nice guy, but for some time now, you have pretty much been the leader of this forum. Notice how no one really challenged what you said? I think you are quite surprised that someone, or two someones, aren't listening to you and you are pissed off by it. You arguments haven't been a lot better than the other ones around here and you pretty much just say ER is stupid and has no clue what he is talking about and then you say I am starting to act like him. This was the exact same in some thread about Luke vs. Bastila or something. Someone disagrees with you and all you can do is say that they are becoming a fanboy and starting to annoy you and undermine you? It's starting to piss me off and if I have to butt heads with you over it I will, but if you accept that other people can have opinions and disagree with you and then not try to make them look like fanboys in the process, I will have no problem with you.

I'll find the quote in a bit. It may not have been those specific parties (Malak and perhaps either Kreia or Sion was listed though... so at most I'm off by one name... the analogy as you used it was still incorrect) So don't sweat that.

And I'm glad you think ER has some good points. I don't. I've taken logic and reasoning courses, both in high school and in college. I have some idea of what sense needs to sound like. And he doesn't make sense. Like this idea with the lightning: it is possible of the following:

1- Luke was struck with rather weak lightning, meant to torture him. Notice that Sidious says "And now, young Skywalker... you will die." while he's stopped for a moment, and then goes right back into it.

2- Dramatic neccessity, since GL makes movies, not sense neccessarily.

3- Luke might have a special resistance to force lightning.

So if either 1 or 3 are correct, you have to apply "OKay, how does this affect a duel with another person of considerable lightsaber wielding power?" And the fact of the matter is this proves nothing in that area. Even if you, for the sake of argument, say that Luke can absorb Force lightning... how did he do it? Writhed and cried out on the ground! How the hell does this help him, even if he does challenge someone who uses Force lightning? It doesn't. And that makes it a moot point. I could speculate that since Dooku can reflect lightning with his hand at a moment's notice he must be infinitely better than Yoda who had to use more of his body to lean into it, huh? There's a difference between inferring ideas and just wild unsupported speculation. The idea that Luke is great because he was shocked for a few minutes or so is wild speculation and a straw that ER's grasping at.

I think this last paragraph is really off. One, I can be a nice guy. I usually am. As for being leader of the forum, that's a title I won't admit to or ever accept; I'm here, I post a lot, and I have a lot to say. If people view me as a leader it's because of their choices and their stance, not because of any active measure on my part. And that is neither here nor there... The point of the matter is that my viewpoint wasn't challenged because it's more sound than the one you and ER are supporting. I'm arguing that the odds are against Skywalker at this point in his life regarding most duellists we use on this forum. And there's nothing to totally blow that away. I've refuted everything that's been put up. That has nothing to do with me not liking people disagreeing with me, because that's not it either. Nai Fohl disagrees with me from time to time, as does Fishy, Faunus.... none of us share exactly the same views on more than perhaps one or two things here at KMC... I know that much. No, the fact is that I've been buddies with you and ER for a long time now and pretty much haven't said more than a few words against your opinions in the past (Well, except for one or two drawn out debates with ER that went unresolved. But lately, thsi place is getting more and more haphazard logic and I really don't think it should stand. It's rather my duty to point out serious flaws as I see them, and if I'm mistaken I'll admit it. But neither you nor ER have shown me mistaken in this point. And I have a really nagging suspicion that you both are arguing that ROTJ Luke is good because you like him and NOT because of his abilities. And that fact that you both can't prove a solid case for him against anyone thus far is feeding that suspicion. So yes, you are both acting like fanboys... advocating victory for one party without any clear or defined reason, just "He is Luke". This isn't a close match like between Sidious and Yoda or Yoda and Dooku or some such... This is really lop sided. Point is, Luke doesn't have the training, willpower, control, and many other neccessities within him at this point to be a fully effective jedi knight and to dispatch even average force users with any kind of ease. So the odds are against him.

Now, as for agreeing to disagree, that's fine. I'm willing to respect someone's wishes if they ask it... But when you're coming in here brazenly like ER does (Days after the fact usually, and only long enough to argue half-assed for one of his two favorite charaters) I'm gonna come back with full guns. It's ridiculous, and you agreeing with him only encourages that kind of half-assed debate. I'm willing to respect your opinion on the issue, but if you want to contradict me and say I'm "in denial" as ER does, prove up.

Originally posted by darthsith19
They are a great team. But not when going up against one lightsaber wielding enemy 2 on 1. If Obi truely fights better with another Jedi than alone then that means if fighting Dooku alone he'd have got wasted in 3 seconds, which I highly dout.

Dooku fears them more together then either one of them alone, he wants to fight them together because it could be a challenge. You would think he has a reason for it.

Alright, first thanks to Darth Glentract and darth sith19. Oh and the Emperor was probably torturing him at first but after he said "Now young Skywalker, you will die." I think he was trying to kill him.

Janus, Glentract simply beat me to saying it, his last post is just what I was thinking. You come here and condescend to everyone who disagrees with you like you're never wrong or something, calling us stupid, terrible debaters, biased fanboys, and unlogical. Yet if you really read my post I said it was more likely that Maul would win this fight. You seem to think Luke couldn't beat a gizka and I get sick of it real quick. Oh, and why does it matter if I post several days later? I don't get on much because I have a lot to do and have little time to get on. What does that have to do with anything?

Now how are your points more "logical" than mine? Luke was trying less than Vader was and beat him in under a minute. Lucas says this too yet you say Vader would still kill him if he was trying. You say his resistance to lightning doesn't mean a thing though it's way stronger than AOTC Anakin's. You say he wasn't a Jedi knight even though the movie's called Return of the Jedi, Lucas, the Emperor, and Yoda all call him a Jedi, you think it's not a Jedi knight.

You say I dodge things yet you have nothing to say other average Force users used Force powers better than Luke except for maybe blaster deflection. Still you think Luke's powers are crappy and his blaster deflection couldn't stop anything. He was facing more like 20 well trained guys with blasters singlehandedly. Jabba is a HUGE crimeboss, and his forces are stronger than you think. Now, how often did Jedi in the PT deflect blasters from organic beings single handedly? AOTC Obi deflected Jango's, but that's one person's, no more. Yeah there were a dozen battle droids or so, but they always had someone else with them and battle droids are no match for a trained organic fighter. Yeah they deflected some destroyer droid's blasts, but they pretty much feared them and ran from they often. It only took a handful of clones firing to kill several Jedi masters. So Luke's blaster deflection still isn't as bad as you say. Oh but since putting up with the Emperor's two handed lightning blast for more than a minute has nothing to do with fighting, why did you bring it up?

Again, it all comes down to training why you think ROTJ Luke is so abysmally weak. Yet you rank Bandon over Maul who has less training. What about the Exile and Revan (end KOTOR) they had almost no training and became very powerful in weeks or maybe months. Kreia was completely stripped of her Force powers and within a year or so could still fry 3 masters with a wave of her hand. The Exile has less training than those same 3 masters he can kill so how can he kill them? What about Malak? He had less training than Maul or Sidious and definitely Mace but you think he can take all 3 if I'm not mistaken. Sion and Nihilus have very little sith training but you think they can beat Maul who has his whole life of Sith training. Dooku would almost undoubtedly have less sith knowledge than Maul but we know Dooku can kill Maul.

Now these are rhetorical questions, I believe Sion and Nihilus can beat Maul, etc. my point is that not everything comes from training and knowledge. Yeah they help, but it's not everything. The movie shows Luke is a powerful Jedi so I don't know why you refuse to admit him as even a Jedi.

Like Glentract said, I would appreciate you not insulting everyone who disagrees with you for no reason at all. I don't let opinions cloud my judgment but if I disagree with you I'm suddenly a fanboy. Even though I said Maul would most likely win this fight. Even though I said Yoda and Mace would probably beat Revan and Malak when guys like Fishy and you I believe said otherwise. Be more like Fishy and Nai Fohl. They simply debate with facts and support instead of insults dripping with disdain about how illogical we are, how dumb are posts are, and how much of fanboys we are. Now yes I called you an anti-fanboy but only because you don't even recognize ROTJ Luke as a Jedi when the movie title says he is and so does everyone else. We're still friends Janus, but your constant insults are irritating and pointless. You're becoming just like Illustrious. And this should be a debate, not who says the most insults.

TAKE THAT LUKE HATERS!!!!


Another point, Jorus C'Baoth became a Jedi Knight in four years, only two of these years were actually training under a Master, the other two were in the Jedi Temple. He started training at age 17. It took him twelve years of Jedi Training to become a Jedi Master. So, after twelve years of training, he was able to control the minds of 37000 crewman on a star destroyer and you powerful force lightning. That is far more than required for the present situation. Luke with four years of training would win. Out of the six Jedi Master's chosen to go on the Outbound Flight, he was the strongest. Just another point to show training alone doesn;t decide a fight.

Oh yeah, high five Glentract!

but as for your edit Glentract, I have to partially disagree based on unknown facts. That was Jorus' clone that was controlling the star destroyers, and he was more influencing them with a kind of battle meditation than anything. How his clone compares with the real thing I don't know, but the clone is pretty good and can use Force lightning very effectively. So the original was probably as powerful and like you said, training is not the only factor in determining power.

Nice sig by the way.

Oh and the Emperor was probably torturing him at first but after he said "Now young Skywalker, you will die." I think he was trying to kill him.

I think he was too. But considering his power as a Sith lord who is easily four times Luke's age at this point, why didn't Luke die right away? Because Sidious wanted him to suffer. You don't have any evidence that this is a sign of 'Force immunity' or anything remotely like it. At all. You and Glentract just think that him writhing and suffering for a minute or two under the Sith lightning is directly related to his ability to "be strong in the Force" is ridiculous. My argument where I say that your stance is unsupported is more sound than this. You have nothing to go on other than what you'd rather happened. You can't and won't admit that Sidious was drawing out the torture with his Force lightning, because this is one of the few points you have in Luke's favor.

Janus, Glentract simply beat me to saying it, his last post is just what I was thinking. You come here and condescend to everyone who disagrees with you like you're never wrong or something, calling us stupid, terrible debaters, biased fanboys, and unlogical. Yet if you really read my post I said it was more likely that Maul would win this fight. You seem to think Luke couldn't beat a gizka and I get sick of it real quick. Oh, and why does it matter if I post several days later? I don't get on much because I have a lot to do and have little time to get on. What does that have to do with anything?

No, I don't 'condescend' to everyone who disagrees with me. I never have. And I am sometimes wrong. I usually admit that my knowledge is shaky beforehand, or I correct myself if I am that much off. Like I said to Glentract, this perception is incorrect. But I still think you are both needing work in your arguments. You in particular, ER. You've had three or four of us trying to make sense to you before or at the very least to reach a stalemate, and you wouldn't have any of it. You are the epitome of stubborn here at KMC, as you were sitting there undermining Ragnos and the people he subdued in order to spell out the possibility that Revan could defeat him. Your argument went in circles and everything you had was battered down, same as now. None of your points standed to any real scrutiny, and that's because they aren't factors in the actual duel; they're just randomn points you like to drag out and claim the character's supposed power and badassness, like Luke writhing in pain actually means he can saber Bastila Shan to death. It doesn't follow. But i know you won't get that or admit it seems off. And Glentract I noticed is eager to hop on your little bandwagon, which is fine. But like I told him, it's one thing to have an opinion, it's another to put it forth like you do as it's a self evident fact and then NOT prove up. You haven't proven anything so far that convinces me Luke can take a youngling in saber fighting. Just "zOMG, he did this." Which is pointless because I saw the movies, perhaps more than you did.

Now how are your points more "logical" than mine? Luke was trying less than Vader was and beat him in under a minute. Lucas says this too yet you say Vader would still kill him if he was trying. You say his resistance to lightning doesn't mean a thing though it's way stronger than AOTC Anakin's. You say he wasn't a Jedi knight even though the movie's called Return of the Jedi, Lucas, the Emperor, and Yoda all call him a Jedi, you think it's not a Jedi knight.

How are my points more logical than yours? Well, for one, they hold up to scrutiny. In this case, as with Bastila Shan versus ROTJ Luke, there isn't anything to support that Luke would ever have a serious advantage over the opponent. You insist that there is, then you list off some oddball points as though those even relate to Luke's lightsaber and duelling skill. For the sake of this argument, only saber versus saber battle experience and ability should really count. It's not as though ROTJ Luke was strong enough in the Force to counter Sith lightning with his hands like Yoda did. Take this "Luke can resist Force lightning" argument for example: It's unfounded, and unsupported. The only thing I have from you is your view of the same movie we all saw over and over again, and your idea that it was somehow because of Luke's greatness he didn't die, and it couldn't -possibly- be Sidious just torturing his ass. If you were so right, why the hell is Glentract the only one on your side? Because this isn't a solid logical point at all, it's all wild speculation fueled by your -desire- for Luke to be better than he really is.

You say I dodge things yet you have nothing to say other average Force users used Force powers better than Luke except for maybe blaster deflection. Still you think Luke's powers are crappy and his blaster deflection couldn't stop anything.

I love it when you take my ideas and twist them out of context. That's the most popular way to get around my points, isn't it? Well, let's see, I've listed these following points as to why an average force user (Say, a jedi knight or padawan from the PT era) can take Luke:

- Much more jedi training
- Diverse background of experience, usually including lots of saber to saber training, if not actual fighting
- Better understanding of themselves and the Force on average due to this training and having longterm mentorship

And I don't think Luke's are the worst skills I've ever seen in the world, but when you consider that he has blaster bolt deflected twice by ROTJ: on the sailbarge of Jabba (Where he was singed) and on Endor versus the speederbike (Which was good deflection, but shortlived). Now I compare that to the ease with which average jedi knights like Bultar Swan deflect blaster bolts as in the Geonosis arena in AOTC. The jedi knights of this era are much calmer and more in control when utilizing their jedi powers, and their saber skills are much more fluid and less "Swing battah battah" like Luke's.

Hm. Your next paragraph is ridiculously drifting and doesn't touch on anything and I'm starting to run out of space so I'll skip it for now. If you think there's an issue in there that is so special it must be addressed, I'll readdress this paragraph later.

Again, it all comes down to training why you think ROTJ Luke is so abysmally weak.

Because he appears much weaker and less refined and in control than any jedi in the series. If his training was much better, he would rival AOTC Anakin at the very least. But he doesn't. He looks to be in all areas weaker or at least less refined.

As for the rest of this paragraph, it's redundant, since I've defended my views many other times and no one had a problem with them then. Why you choose to bring it up now is because you're trying to undermine me as an arguer instead of attacking my debate, which you can't do. There are valid reasons why all these persons rank higher than their older PT equivalent, and a lot of that has to do with the way Bio Ware made the game and its story. But seeing as Malak and certain others were Force prodigies with more training than Luke by far and more powerful sources and artifacts to their name gives them the edge over Luke in every way. If experience was the only factor to equal power, then Yoda would beat all.

The movie shows Luke is a powerful Jedi so I don't know why you refuse to admit him as even a Jedi.

A powerful jedi in comparison to what? He certainly doesn't compare with PT jedi at all. Well, he's probably smarter or better than Coleman Trebor, who was damn dumb to attack Jango head on. But while he's a jedi no matter what I say, I'll still argue he's no equivalent to a trained jedi knight of about the same age or even older, from the PT era. And to say otherwise is to be blind to the facts. He isn't. He will be, potentially more powerful than anyone else really, thanks to NJO. But by ROTJ, he is barely just coming into his jedi role. How you can translate that into he can defeat Bastila Shan or any other jedi or Sith is beyond me. It simply doesn't follow.

Like Glentract said, I would appreciate you not insulting everyone who disagrees with you for no reason at all. I don't insult everyone who disagrees with me, and I certainly never insult anyone for no reason at all. Don't play the victim, it doesn't become either of you.

I don't let opinions cloud my judgment but if I disagree with you I'm suddenly a fanboy. No, you're a fanboy because of the way you use your judgment, and it IS clouded by your bias for one character. you never give or concede any points; you just keep plugging away, saying they must be true and that it's me or the other person or the other duellist, or a trick of the screen lightning that is the reason why you couldn't have been wrong in your initial assumption. See, unlike you I admit when something I say is pretty off, and I admit when my stance appears weak. You don't.

Even though I said Yoda and Mace would probably beat Revan and Malak when guys like Fishy and you I believe said otherwise.

Can I see the direct link or quote of this one please?

Be more like Fishy and Nai Fohl.

I'm more like them than you are. I debate my points and I support my claims. You don't. You just spew out observations and label them as facts; you don't give ground at all. Unlike Nai or Fishy (though both are not nearly as stubborn as you or I) you never stop to consider that your observations may be in error, or may be more unsupported than you think. No, instead you just keep on plugging away. And remember, in regards to being irritating YOU are the one who waltzed in here and said first sentence that I was in denial. That was what set me off mostly, not just your faulty stance. And I'm out of room.

Wow, what a long post for so little information.

Even if we discount the force lightning. We have two major points you have yet to adress.

1. Jorus C'Baoth became a Jedi Knight in four years, the same amount of time it took Luke.

2. Luke solidly defeated Darth Vader in ROTJ. Vader has proven himself better than Darth Maul by beating him in a fight previously. This directly shows Luke as alone being better than Maul.

*sigh* Not this again. . .

Oh and Glentract, the fight between Vader and Maul was in Star Wars Tales. The same series that featured Han Solo crash-landing the Falcon on Earth, Chewie becoming known as the Bigfoot, and Indiana Jones discovering the body of Solo, shot to death by native Americans. Not exactly canonical material.

unless contradicted by higher material, it stands.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
unless contradicted by higher material, it stands.

Wow.

I am done arguing with you. Go ahead- have your delusions.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Wow.

I am done arguing with you. Go ahead- have your delusions.

I think you're saying that because you know I am right. You can't disprove either of my two points.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Wow, what a long post for so little information.

Even if we discount the force lightning. We have two major points you have yet to adress.

1. Jorus C'Baoth became a Jedi Knight in four years, the same amount of time it took Luke.

2. Luke solidly defeated Darth Vader in ROTJ. Vader has proven himself better than Darth Maul by beating him in a fight previously. This directly shows Luke as alone being better than Maul.

Let me try then... hm. But this is it for tonight. No more debating with a wall for me.

1. Jorus C'Baoth. Not the clone, I presume? I've read about him once, and I believe it was in Jedi Trial. He was an old man and a master. Was he inducted into the jedi order at a young age? Or was he just some random nobody who walked up and became a jedi knight? If he was, that's pretty said, and it totally lowers the bar for jedi knights everywhere. Maybe you can furnish us with more information and sources on this one. And then tell how it mandates that Luke pwns bastila. I really want to hear the reasoning behind that one.

2. So L>V (No exceptions, all the time... regardless of personal conflictions) and V>M (despite the dubious source, and the fact Vader had to saber himself to kill Maul; not even counting the appeal to Vader fanbase with the stunt, since Vader fans outnumber Maul fans) therefore L>M?

Haven't you been scolded for using this kind of simplified logic before?

Here's the problem with this assumption (Read: Royal **** up in logical reasoning) It's just like Mace > Sidious > Yoda

If you say that Luke is better than Vader, despite Vader's experience, obvious strength, and the stark contrast from the few seconds where he busted out on Luke in ESB and the last seconds of the duel in ROTJ where he's feebly holding his saber up (This is the inhuman strength of a man who can hold a Republic officer up by his neck half a foot or so off the ground) then you are basically negating all of Vader's obvious advantages and better traits to say that Luke is better in everyway, just because of the duel in ROTJ where the boy swung his lightsaber like he was attacking a bee.

If this is the case, and you agree to this logic, you cannot ever argue for another person on grounds of more experience, superior strength, better command of the Force, or anything because you have effectively said it "doesn't matter" with this one half assed statement. Using this, you can only conclude who is better by who won, not by who has more in his favor. So if Han Solo picked up a lightsaber and luckily stabbed say, Yoda. And then GL comes along and calls him a jedi now and that he defeated Yoda, he suddenly becomes the best thing ever?

As for Maul versus Vader, you don't list any specifics in the fight. You don't alude to how it was won, and you don't tell us how close the fight was, or even if the way it was represented was close to how the characters acted respectively in their movies. You just go V>M.

In short, you haven't proved a damn thing, and I suggest you pay attention in the debate class you're taking, since you're not doing well here tonight.

Well, I've read the story; they're pretty well-matched throughout the fight, up until Maul gets a couple of hits on him. Vader falls to one knee, and when Maul comes behind him for the death-blow, he stabs himself through the damn stomach. Which is the organic part of him.

Holy Crap, I think I have just woken up. (I know you are going to think this is a cover-up, but whatever). Has this ever happened to you when you think someone is really good and then a minute later without any outside influence(this happened before I read you last post Jauns) you completly change you mind? Well, this is like the third time this has happened to me. I am hoing to give this fight to Maul, but just barely.



There still is one last thing. Luke is rougly twice as old in NJO as in ROTJ. He is far more powerful than Maul at this point, over double in my book.

Now don't fall asleep on me, but when I am double my age(28), will I be five times as strong, fast and smart? No. I won't. Maybe twice as smart as I am now I would guess. I doubt Luke would be also. So if Luke is over twice as powerful in NJO as Maul and ROTJ Luke is about half as powerful, he must be about equal to Maul.(does this make any sense?)

Clearly though, you don't have the force. That singular variable changes the whole equation.

well, that's all I got left on him.

NJO Luke is supposed to be approaching 45 or so, idn't he?

By Unifying Force? 49, approaching 50.

I thought so, although everyone looks 32 on the covers.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
By Unifying Force? 49, approaching 50.

Man does he age slow or what? Luke on the covers still looks like he is in his late 20s or something. The guy must work out six days a week.

Tsk. Can't have 'em aging to fast. Especially Mara and Leia. . .

Yeah. If they start tripping over their boobs while running, the books won't sell.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Yeah. If they start tripping over their boobs while running, the books won't sell.

Yeah, though if they wanted their books to sell, they could have done something when they weren't as old.

Milking the cow requires warm hands, not great minds.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Milking the cow requires warm hands, not great minds.

You're right. A great mind would hire someone else with warm hands to milk the cow.

Word of Artoo, for the people of Artoo.

*Gregorian chanting*

Raz must be busy I have been waiting forever for him to approve my username change. Yes this is the last time I will change my username.

Hence why I don't bother to change my name... one, I made sure I would like this one; two, I don't like the idea of waiting on other people, or not being able to reuse old sigs.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Hence why I don't bother to change my name... one, I made sure I would like this one; two, I don't like the idea of waiting on other people, or not being able to reuse old sigs.

Well I like Rand al' Thor more then Revan, I mean geez Rand can pretty much pulverize entire armies.

Really? damn.

Rand makes NJO Luke or Marka Ragnos look like flies. I mean the dude might as well be a god in a mortal form. I take you have not read the Wheel of Time Series by Robert Jorden.

That's kinda fekked up actually. It's hard to like a hero who doesn't have the classic hero failing.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
That's kinda fekked up actually. It's hard to like a hero who doesn't have the classic hero failing.

Trust me Rand has his failings. He is more arrogant than Edwin from Balder's Gate and well you would have to read the books to understand why Rand is so powerful. The main antagonist is an immortal overworldy being who is akin to a god an has power that makes Rand look like a fly.

Yeah it is, especially a hero with godlike power that other individuals can't touch.

Yeah, I'm happy with the nickname I signed up with, so I don't see the need to change it.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Yeah it is, especially a hero with godlike power that other individuals can't touch.

Yeah, I'm happy with the nickname I signed up with, so I don't see the need to change it.

I'm a 15 year old teenager...we teens are known for an inability to make up our minds.

Still, that's a ridiculous amount of power for one person to wield. I like power remaing either in the hands of those who use it judiciously (Like some gods do and sages) or someone with no ambition whatsoever, nor stakes in the world's events. Everyone else should fight for the scraps.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Still, that's a ridiculous amount of power for one person to wield. I like power remaing either in the hands of those who use it judiciously (Like some gods do and sages) or someone with no ambition whatsoever, nor stakes in the world's events. Everyone else should fight for the scraps.

Perhaps I overdid Rand's power a bit. But its really hard to explain a book series that is 12 books long and each book is about 1000 pages each standerd paperback size.

I'll figure it out eventually. For now, we're starting to poo all over this thread. Let's move along, citizen.

Originally posted by Abyssal Lord
Perhaps I overdid Rand's power a bit. But its really hard to explain a book series that is 12 books long and each book is about 1000 pages each standerd paperback size.

HOLY CRAP!!!! Whats the name of this series?

Janus and Glemtrick, funny funny sh*t.

Luke, while strong with the force has natural ability....however, not as fine tuned at the Old Republic era. He DID train a lot with Obi Wan's spirit that spoke to him time to time.

He might be able to take out the jobber Jedi's in the PT but nobody on the council or ANakin, Maul, etc.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.

P.S. Its Glentract, not Glemtract. If it was a typo, forget it.

Maul might win unless luke goes Dark Rage and Ballistic on maul breaking his saber in half, etc.

sorry....GLENTRACT, what do you not understand?

You don't need to get so crappy about it.

poop...j/k. no really, what is it you don't understand? is it the term "jobber"?