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this is not a thread but a poll so don't add threads but just vote

This belongs in the Literature and expanded Universe section.

if you select none of the above just add a reply of who you think

Nah, I picked Ragnos. (surprise, surprise)

Surprise, me too.

R46n05 PWN3D5 4||!!

Strange, I did too...

As did I. Who picked Ajunta. I didn't think of him and I wrote a freakin long story on him(usually people get attached to the people they write about).

I'snt Ajunta a Dark Jedi?

I made him one in my story, but I think "officially" he is a Sith

Surprise, Surprise, Ragnos is leading.

Ajunta is a sith marauder

wow. i was sure vader would have this.

Originally posted by tommy vercetti
Ajunta is a sith marauder

where did you learn that

I picked him because he seems to have both a good attunement to the force and good combat technique ( partly because of his sword)

doesn't kreia say it, i think so i know i heard it somewhere

not that i know of. i'll check tonight

So you happen to nab Ajunta's sword in KotOR, does that mean people like Sadow, Ragnos, or Kressh doesn't have good swords also? We know that Ragnos' scepter is very capable.

Ah yes but Ajunta his blade is stuff of legends far beyond that of any other weapon ever. Probably for a reason, still doesn't make him the greatest sith Lord though.

The greatest is Ragnos without any doubt he is the most powerful of them and ruled for 150 years... Nobody could do that, Sidious can be argued about but he just lacks the power to be put in comparison with Ragnos.

Ajunta Pall can also be argued about but only because we don't know shit about him except for a few things which don't say anything anyways... The rest on that list just can not compare to Ragnos it can not even be argued.

they may have been powerful but not as powerful as ajunta pall's. it was so powerful that he wasn't able to control it

Originally posted by tommy vercetti
they may have been powerful but not as powerful as ajunta pall's. it was so powerful that he wasn't able to control it

So what does that mean? It sounds impressive but we don't know how powerful Ajunta was so maybe it means nothing.

who voted tulak hord

the fact that he was buried in the valley of the darl lords shows that he was in the same league as the rest of them

Originally posted by tommy vercetti
they may have been powerful but not as powerful as ajunta pall's. it was so powerful that he wasn't able to control it

That may mean that Ajunta is weak. If he cant control a sword then he must suck.

Originally posted by tommy vercetti
the fact that he was buried in the valley of the darl lords shows that he was in the same league as the rest of them

There were many Dark Lord tombs. That doesn't mean every Dark Lord was great. I mean, King Tut's tomb is huge, but he was a miniscule and minor character in Egyption history. So what? He was a Dark Lord, or a predecessor to that, that doesn't mean he was great.

Ajunta's blade may well be extremely powerful, but the fact that he couldn't control it speaks as much about Ajunta as his weapon. For example, Ragnos' scepter could drain the force out of individuals, places, even planets -- it could empower users to use the force, and it could even revive individuals (or at least presumably). That seems pretty powerful. We have very little evidence, outside of Ajunta being unable to control his own weapon, as to just how powerful the blade is.

it was one of the 5 biggest tombs which shows he was in the same league as tulak hord, marko ragnos, ludo kressh and naga sadow. therefor the sword must have been powerful to overcome someone as powerful or close to as powerful as these.

the five biggest tombs out of five that were shown. In Jedi Academy there were a lot of tombs that were bigger.

Still waiting for you to explain why you think Ajunta is a Sith Marauder.

Thats absolute bullshit...

The size of the tomb means nothing egyptian kings made huge tombs often for nothing impressive. That of Pall was huge and probably for a reason but we know so little about him, its just to hard to make a real guess on how powerful he is or what he did. He made a blade yeah okay, the blade was powerful okay I can believe that, he believes the blade destroyed him could be true or he could just be insane and he was eventually destroyed by Revan. Which doesn't mean a lot either seeing as he was dead for thousands upon thousands of years.

There are just to many unknowns to even make a guess at how powerful he was.

Originally posted by tommy vercetti
it was one of the 5 biggest tombs which shows he was in the same league as tulak hord, marko ragnos, ludo kressh and naga sadow. therefor the sword must have been powerful to overcome someone as powerful or close to as powerful as these.

Like I said, King Tut has one of the largest tombs, but he was a miniscule character in Egyptian history. There are a lot of reasons to give someone a large tomb, it doesn't mean that he was great in battle.

Hell, he was 20000 years before Ragnos, over that span, the Sith Empire could have greatly advanced. That is just plain logical fallacy. The size of the tomb doesn't necessarily correlate into the power of the man, it's a false conclusion.

He was not 20000 years before Ragnos. It is even said in the game that he was one of the first of a GROUP to breakaway, not the first to breakaway ever.

Vader.

I'm NOT saying he is the most powerful, so don't flame me -- but I do believe Darth Sidious is the greatest Sith Lord ever. He was a damn coward, yes. But he had no equal in terms of manipulation. His tactics reflected his nature -- but they worked better than anyone elses. He is also the only KNOWN (though it has been hinted by Sidious himself that it may be otherwise) Sith Lord to conquer the galaxy. And even if he didn't conquer it ALL -- it was far greater than what the others have done.

1. He did conquer the galaxy. He is, in fact, the only one to ever do it.

2. He engineered the destruction of the Jedi Order.

He had his flaws -- hence his inevitable defeat. But all Sith Lords fail in the end. Sidious is no exception. But what he did was great, and to deny the impact it had would be lying.

It has been hinted that he is one of the greatest - if not THE. The Star Wars site refers to him as the puppet-master who saw the end of the Republic. That is indeed a feat no one else accomplished.

Sourcebooks and various EU/websites credit him with this. It is just testimony to see that those who despise Sidious cannot deny his effective skill.

So. Sidious to me, is the greatest Sith Lord.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That may mean that Ajunta is weak. If he cant control a sword then he must suck.

Yeah, that's what I thought until I played KOTOR. It seemed to me to indicate that Pall's sword he recovered drove him mad after he left the known regions of the galaxy in the future to maintain the dark threat mentioned. This might be wrong, but I just remember some situation from KOTOR that implied it.

Well...I voted Ragnos...

Still...I don't understand the discussion about Ajunta Pall here. Pall was on the first group of Dark Jedi that arrived on Korriban so basically he was a Dark Jedi that studied Sith Alchemy and created that sword that he can't control. That doesn't make him greater than Ragnos who was the greatest Sith at the high point of the Sith Empire.

And who voted for Tulak Hord ? I know that he is said to be the best Sith lightsaber duellist but people should think of the following points.

a) Sith
b) lightsaber duellist
c) information from KotoR II times

And that basically means that we don't know anything about his force powers. Every Jedi could be better than him. It gives no information about people like Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh, Pall since they didn't use lightsabers so they might be able to kill Hord in melee combat. And it doesn't say anything about the people past KotoR times.

So that only tells us that Tulak was the greatest Sith lightsaber fighter in the era from 5,000 to 3,951 BBY but the best Sith Lord ever ? I doubt it.

The discussion about Pall exists because his ghost was around 16.000 years after his dead and he was still okay, when the force ghosts of the other great one's weakened pretty fast. So Pall would have to be really powerful to still have that much power after 16.000 years...

Originally posted by Fishy
The discussion about Pall exists because his ghost was around 16.000 years after his dead and he was still okay, when the force ghosts of the other great one's weakened pretty fast. So Pall would have to be really powerful to still have that much power after 16.000 years...

Palls spirit was bound to his sword that's why he asked Revan to take it out of the tomb - that sword kept his ghost there not his former power. And it must be 21,000 years (25,000 - 3,961 BBY) that he were around as a spirit.

Okay 21.000 years, and yeah it could have been his blade probably was... Still it leaves a lot open to think about.

To be able to build a blade with enough power to do something like that, it just sounds impressive. If it is, I don't know but Pall could be really damn good.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...I voted Ragnos...

Still...I don't understand the discussion about Ajunta Pall here. Pall was on the first group of Dark Jedi that arrived on Korriban so basically he was a Dark Jedi that studied Sith Alchemy and created that sword that he can't control. That doesn't make him greater than Ragnos who was the greatest Sith at the high point of the Sith Empire.

And who voted for Tulak Hord ? I know that he is said to be the best Sith lightsaber duellist but people should think of the following points.

a) Sith
b) lightsaber duellist
c) information from KotoR II times

And that basically means that we don't know anything about his force powers. Every Jedi could be better than him. It gives no information about people like Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh, Pall since they didn't use lightsabers so they might be able to kill Hord in melee combat. And it doesn't say anything about the people past KotoR times.

So that only tells us that Tulak was the greatest Sith lightsaber fighter in the era from 5,000 to 3,951 BBY but the best Sith Lord ever ? I doubt it.

Well, ot be good wit ha ligtsaber, you have to be able to control the force pretty well, and I'm sure that Tulak would not be a pushover in force terms.

Originally posted by Hornyman
Well, ot be good wit ha ligtsaber, you have to be able to control the force pretty well, and I'm sure that Tulak would not be a pushover in force terms.

Ulic Quel-Droma could fight a Jedi into a standstill without having any force powers..so that doesn't count much.

Fishy: Of course Pall is good at least in Sith Alchemy - he had to be to create his blade - but that neither says something about his force abilities nor about his skill as a swordfighter. At least you should be powerful enough to handle something you have built yourself.

You are right, it doesn't say much. I am just saying that you could argue about Pall, but its just based on a lot of unknowns so it doesn't have any use.

Oh and about that Tulak thing, come on he would have to have been pretty powerful to survive and be called the greatest duellist ever. He would not be that if he didn't have a great command over the force. Nothing near Ragnos probably because if he did he would be more known, but thats not really the point.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Palls spirit was bound to his sword that's why he asked Revan to take it out of the tomb - that sword kept his ghost there not his former power. And it must be 21,000 years (25,000 - 3,961 BBY) that he were around as a spirit.

Ajunta was not around 25000 B.B.Y. The actual time in unkown, but there were other groups of Dark Jedi around before him. Since the Jedi Order was formed 25000 B.B.Y., he cant be that old.

Also, look at him tomb. It has degraded about the same amount as the other tombs built only a thousand years before KOTOR. I would say that there is no way Ajunta could be from before 10000 B.B.Y.

That's kind of silly Glentract. The amount of degrading and weathering in his tomb?

Seriously. It looks like the other tombs. It shouldn't if there is a 20000 year difference. Even a five thousand difference is a major strech.

He also CAN NOT be the first Sith, or even in the first group. He says there were other groups before his.

He's not the first Sith, no. But he's one of the first renegades, or Dark Jedi.

man, none of them can even compare to darth sidious he was the only sith lord that ever avoided detection sooo close to jedi

Originally posted by Sith Lord Rage
man, none of them can even compare to darth sidious he was the only sith lord that ever avoided detection sooo close to jedi

I figure you know NOTHING about what the Sith Empire was and how it worked, right?

i think he's an SS'er. Notice the name sith lord RAGE.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
i think he's an SS'er. Notice the name sith lord RAGE.

That page has so much obvious crap, I didn't even get that far.

I never fell for SS... I came here first and then was told who he was when someone else quoted him.

Originally posted by Sith Lord Rage
man, none of them can even compare to darth sidious he was the only sith lord that ever avoided detection sooo close to jedi

Just for your information: Exar Kun did that too.

No he didn't, Exar Kun wasn't a coward, he actually fought a war with the Jedi.

Originally posted by Fishy
No he didn't, Exar Kun wasn't a coward, he actually fought a war with the Jedi.

He ran around on Ossus and talked Jedi into joining him when he was already a Dark Lord without having the Jedi detect him. So he was able to avoid detection if he wanted to do so...

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
He ran around on Ossus and talked Jedi into joining him when he was already a Dark Lord without having the Jedi detect him. So he was able to avoid detection if he wanted to do so...

Yeah I know that part, but unlike Sidious he stopped being a coward and fought a full out war.... Something that Sidious couldn't even dream off.

Originally posted by Fishy
Yeah I know that part, but unlike Sidious he stopped being a coward and fought a full out war.... Something that Sidious couldn't even dream off.

Yes. I know. I only wanted to add that Kun could have remained undetected on a planet filled with Jedi if he had wanted to do so since Sith Lord Rage (*cough*) seems to think that is unique to Sidious.

Yeah sorry I knew that, Guess you just misunderstood my post which is no real surprise when I look at what I wrote.

Still, Sidious was strong in the Force to cloak his identity from beings such as Yoda and Mace. A feat, Nai Fohl - that you should not dismiss. Especially if the great Exar Kun has performed it. It is a spectacular talent and an example of how powerful Sidious was in the Force.

God for the last time... I am the best sith lord... Ever...

Originally posted by Darth Mantis
God for the last time...

You can just call me "Nai". It isn't necessary to call me "God" here.

has that tommy guy come back?

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Still, Sidious was strong in the Force to cloak his identity from beings such as Yoda and Mace. A feat, Nai Fohl - that you should not dismiss. Especially if the great Exar Kun has performed it. It is a spectacular talent and an example of how powerful Sidious was in the Force.

Yeah, a spectacular talent that people have done before. The only thing spectacular is how much of a pansy Sidious is/was.

Darth Sidious isn't as powerful as some of the Sith Lords on that list, but he is still the greatest. Like Exar Kun, he fought a war with the Jedi. Exar lost his war, Sidious won. If Sidious wasn't on the list, I would've picked Kun, but for this previous reason, Sidious is greater, even though he's not quite as powerful.
Marka Ragnos ruled the Sith for 150 years, he did not rule the galaxy. Sidious remains the only Sith to have conquered the known galaxy.

Precisely.

Illustrious, Sidious was a coward. I've said this on countless occasions, and everyone has said it. Still, I don't know why you all hate him and dismiss him as you do. Sidious still did accomplish what no other Sith ever did before him - and likely what no other Sith will do again. He is one of the greatest, if not THE greatest, like it or not for what he did. And I will continue to defend him until you all respect him for doing what Exar did NOT do. What Marka did NOT do. Revan did NOT do. Naga did NOT do.

And please don't gimme that "well at least they fought a war and were brave." Oh well. I consent to the fact that Revan, Kun, Marka, and so many others were braver than Sidious. But that doesn't excuse them. He conquered the galaxy - more than they ever did.

But yes. He was a pansy. And sadly, perhaps the greatest of all of them.

I simply don't get it why some of you rate Sidious the greatest or one of the greatest Sith Lords ?

1)
Some of the Sith didn't ever want to conquer the galaxy. Ragnos didn't want to do so, Nadd didn't want to do so. Ragnos wanted to keep the Sith Empire away from the Republic and managed to do that for more than a century. Nadd wanted to conquer Onderon, did it on his own and influenced the planet for more than 400 years.

2)
Sidious did never control the entire galaxy - only Republic space. And well he did that for 13 years as Chancellor and another 19 years as Emperor. So he "reigned" for 32 years. Now compare that to Ragnos who ruled his own Empire (not as big as the Republic but wealthier and filled with Dark Siders) for more than a century.

3)
Sidious did - at least - fail because of a single Jedi Knight or let us say: Like all other Sith before he died because of betrayal. Sadow was stopped by betrayal (Gav Daragon), Kun was (Ulic Quel-Droma), Revan was (Malak). But the difference is that Sidious was at least killed by a guy in a life-support-system-suit that had only 80 % of his power while all other Sith needed entire armies of force users to stop them (Nadd and Kun at least). So the fact that Sidious was not strong enough to defend himself in an age in which Dooku had the ability to toy around with Anakin + Obi-Wan makes him weak in my eyes.

You have to understand that no one has ruled the ENTIRE galaxy. Even during his reign as Emperor, Sidious owned Republic Space, and had little to no influence past the mid rim.

During Ragnos' time, he had the Sith Empire, and the Republic was a seperate entity. Both would claim they ruled the "galaxy" as they domineered over their corner of it. Just like during the Empire, the Hutt space was practically untouched by the influence of Sidious.

So while Sidious "conquered" the galaxy, he didn't rule over the entire portion, and it really isn't any more impressive than Ragnos ruling over the mighty Sith Empire for over a century.

Lol, Nai, if someone hadn't seen Return of the Jedi - I'm pretty sure you would have convinced them to think the Emperor weak. So let us look at the facts, shall we?

Sidious was torturing Luke at the time. Luke rejected the Emperor's promise of power and of the Dark Side. So the Emperor began to kill him. Slowly - stopping every now and then to gloat - as if he were then teaching Luke a lesson. Vader was indeed in a life support system. But let's not forget that that suit gave him incredible endurance and superhuman strength (left that tid-bit out, didn't you).

Sidious was honed in - completely submerged in the glee of torturing Luke. Vader stood a little off to the side. Sidious didn't even give Vader a glance as soon as he focused on Luke. So. Vader grabs Sidious and chucks him over the side.

Lo and behold - Vader dies in the process via Force lightning from Sidious. Now. Vader caught Sidious off guard and still died in the process. You might credit Sidious being caught off guard is a weakness. Amazing how you don't seem to think the same when Yoda was "caught off guard" via Palpatine's lightning in Revenge of The Sith.

Also. The prophecy - like it or not - is instituted heavily here. Sidious was meant to die at Anakin's hands - or in this case - hand. And he did. And he died in the process - and Luke got his insides fried.

Sidious doesn't seem weak to me.

Illustrious, Ragnos's reign of the Sith Empire is impressive. You say so yourself, correct? And you just stated that Sidious's reign over the galaxy isn't any MORE impressive. So that means you ought to respect Sidious as much as you do Ragnos, for conquering the galaxy. And yet you do not.

And - Sidious dared to dream of conquering it all. And he did. But no rule is absolute. Every empire had pockets of rebellion in it. Revan's empire did - (with Malak). Malak rebelled against Revan and tried to kill him. No rule nor any reign is total.

Not even in real life. Otherwise you wouldn't have any law breakers.

He couldn't sense the betrayel of Darth Vader that much is for sure, and i'm pretty sure Vader would be conflicted as hell during the process his emotions would have been screaming in his head. Palpatine his failure to read it, is a failure that a true Sith should not let happen. Especially not one that relies on his minors to do most of the work.

Yoda however is a different situation he didn't know what to expect a surprise attack like that could not have been seen coming he should have blocked it but he didn't, a failure on his part but nothing to bad. Palpatine fell back because of a push not much later so we could say the same thing about Palpatine again.

You're telling me that Yoda -- who is the wisest of all the Jedi Masters -- did not expect an attack from Sidious -- who was a Sith Lord?? And I guess the whole...

Palpatine: (SLOWLY raising hands): Your arrogance blinds you, Master Yoda. You haven't witnessed the power of the Dark Side. Until now.

-Yoda is sent flying across the room, nearly unconscious, thanks to Palpatine's lightning-

Um...yeah...okay. Wow. BIG failure on Yoda's part.

And once more. Sidious was focused on torturing Luke. He didn't even acknowledge Vader when he began his assault.

So, how is Yoda's failure worse? Yoda did not know what to expect, I admitted that it was a failure on his part but not as bad as you make it out to be.

And Yoda send Palpatine flying the other way just seconds later, when the fight was already started. Palpatine should have expected that as well.

And Sidious focusing on Luke is a incredibly big mistake, he should have known better he didn't, he became arrogant and foolish on his old age, pathetic compared to what he once was, he deserved to die.

No. Palpatine's attack on Yoda was greater than Yoda's attack. If you will recall, Yoda's assault pushed Palpatine across the room. Palpatine got up seconds later and tried to flee - the coward that he is. Yoda took a hit that nearly knocked him unconscious.

And Palpatine is very arrogant. I know that. It's one of his chief weaknesses. But do not dismiss him because he is a coward. He brought an end to the Republic that apparently - indirectly or otherwise - triumphed over the Sith Lords of old.

You are so wrong there... Palpatine his attack did not knock out Yoda or almost, Yoda lay on the ground his eyes opened he waited then he jumped up and pushed Palpatine away. Palpatine should have been able to block that attack far much easier then Yoda should have blocked Palpatine his attack and yet still you laugh at Yoda.

So he's arrogant and he's a coward, and then at the moment he should doubt the loyalty's of Vader most he trusts him. He already knew that Vader was conflicted he saw the fight happen, why the hell did he trust him? Becuase he's an idiot, really if he was that good he would not have done that. He couldn't have.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Lol, Nai, if someone hadn't seen Return of the Jedi - I'm pretty sure you would have convinced them to think the Emperor weak. So let us look at the facts, shall we?

Haha...yes...



Woah. The fact that Sidious used lightning against Luke for more than 30 seconds total and Luke jumped up after this and carried Vader through half of the Death Star says a lot about Sidious "strength within the force".
And now compare 87 or 88 year old Sidious in ROTJ to 83 year old Dooku in ROTS and tell me who is more powerful. Dooku would have toasted ROTJ Luke with one hand while cutting Vader into little pieces with the other.



Stupid enough. So basically you trying to tell me that the greatest Sith Lord ever is not only totally carried away by his emotions (torturing Luke) but is also a dumbass (not having a look at Vader in a situation he KNEW Vader would maybe save his son). How dumb must a Sith be to turn his back on his apprentice while killing the apprentices son ?



Vader died in the process via Force lightning because that stuff toasted his life support system. Great deal.



Movie Sidious compared to people who can blow stars up with their powers seems pretty weak to me.

The reign in and of itself is more impressive, but that doesn't make him more powerful, or greater, or the best -- you have to look at the circumstances.

As for not respecting Sidious as much as Ragnos, that's clearly because Ragnos is far more powerful. The information we have on Ragnos makes it clear he is the Dark Lord of the Sith, the very pinnacle of the Ancient Sith Empire filled with powerful dark side force users, including individuals like Naga Sadow, who could blow up stars; Simus, who could keep his head alive in a jar; and Ludo Kressh, who was a powerful Sith in his own right. Sidious 'ruled' over one Sith Apprentice, an Apprentice that likely wouldn't even be up to "Sith Lord" rank in the old Empire, and he didn't have to contend with the Jedi, as they had been stupidly blinded by their own arrogance -- the novelization even has Yoda admitting this.

Face it, Sidious took advantage of the circumstances, NO ONE in the Jedi Order had seen a Sith up until Maul, they had no reason to suspect Palpatine was a Sith Lord. For individuals like Kun, Revan, Ragnos, Sadow, the Republic had EVERY REASON to be concerned.



In this regard, Ragnos' Empire was more total in its reign. He ruled with an iron fist.



It wasn't the SAME republic. That Old Republic had thousands upon thousands of Jedi WARRIORS. When Sadow came around, they launched a massive armada to counter him, and Sadow was defeated only by betrayal. With Kun, they sent thousands of Jedi to beat him. With the Battle of Ruusan, they again sent thousands of Jedi.

How many Jedi did they send to confront Palpatine? 4, and the only decent one was Mace Windu. Awesome "army" there, isn't it?

Agreed. Man, I will pick this apart later when I'm not at work...

But the prophecy... Pwned. I pwned that thing a LONG time ago.

For one, Somebody, while GL says he is the chosen one, and that the chosen one must restore balance to the Force, he never says how. If anything, he says that much and leads us to believe that (If we think outside of the box, as he asks us to) Anakin may NOT be the chosen one. If anything he tips the scales further into darkness, out of harmony. And it is Luke's actions that bring about balance, really. Meh, more on this when people aren't ****ing calling me left and right.

i went with ragnos

And Palpatine expended the Jedi by manipulating them all into fighting a war. See, Palpatine was a master of wars. Not fighting them, per say. But thanks to him -- the Jedi Order was in a far worse state then it had ever been -- and he ruled the galaxy.

And Fishy, lol, Palpatine's methods were far smarter than even Revan's. So no. He's not an idiot. Perhaps senile and insane - but far from stupid.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
And Palpatine expended the Jedi by manipulating them all into fighting a war. See, Palpatine was a master of wars. Not fighting them, per say. But thanks to him -- the Jedi Order was in a far worse state then it had ever been -- and he ruled the galaxy.

And Fishy, lol, Palpatine's methods were far smarter than even Revan's. So no. He's not an idiot. Perhaps senile and insane - but far from stupid.

Now...greatness as it's best:

- letting yourself being elected to be the chancellor. Cool...none of the Sith Lords before Sidious could have done that because they were fallen Jedi and therefore known to the Republic / Jedi.

- letting a bunch of clones and the most powerful force user ever takei down Jedi in a suprise attack

- declare yourself to be the Emperor supported by people that you have talked into supporting you for more than a decade.

Hmmm...lol....mention that Sidious:

a) Didn't kill all Jedi (failure No. 1)
b) Let his apprentice getting mortaly wounded thereby making him quite useless (failure No. 2)
c) Let Skywalker being trained (failure No. 3)
d) Assign Vader on the mission to kill / convert Skywalker - knowing that he would more likely join his son or utilize him to destroy Sidious than leave him under his control. (failure No. 4)
e) While the confrontation of them let himself getting carried away by his emotions (failure No. 5)
f) Because all of his failures getting his ass kicked after 19 years of "ruling the republic space" (not galaxy).

Well...conclusion: Sidious failed because of his own dumbness, incompetence and the failures he made while all other people just failed because of betrayal which they couldn't prevent while Sidious had multiple chances to do so (kill Vader and take a new apprentice, find and kill Obi-Wan and / or Yoda, find and kill Luke etc.).

So please: Don't tell me again he was the greatest or one of the greatest Sith Lords.

Darth Vader, he IS star wars

Originally posted by Darth243
Darth Vader, he IS star wars

Oh yeah, your post contributed SO MUCH to this discussion, good job.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Oh yeah, your post contributed SO MUCH to this discussion, good job.


anytime , buddy

i believe the name of this thread is "who is the best sith lord" not who is the most powerful etc. etc.

So...what makes Darth "where have my legs gone" Vader the "best Sith Lord" in your eyes ?

well darth vader is from "Star Wars" not this extended universe stuff, he is the most well known sith lord , and I just think hes the best because im a massive vader fanboy.

At least you're honest.

vader was my second choice but he might not stand against the great ragnos

might not lol ragnos wouldn't even have to lift a finger to destroy vader

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Now...greatness as it's best:

- letting yourself being elected to be the chancellor. Cool...none of the Sith Lords before Sidious could have done that because they were fallen Jedi and therefore known to the Republic / Jedi.

- letting a bunch of clones and the most powerful force user ever takei down Jedi in a suprise attack

- declare yourself to be the Emperor supported by people that you have talked into supporting you for more than a decade.

Hmmm...lol....mention that Sidious:

a) Didn't kill all Jedi (failure No. 1)
b) Let his apprentice getting mortaly wounded thereby making him quite useless (failure No. 2)
c) Let Skywalker being trained (failure No. 3)
d) Assign Vader on the mission to kill / convert Skywalker - knowing that he would more likely join his son or utilize him to destroy Sidious than leave him under his control. (failure No. 4)
e) While the confrontation of them let himself getting carried away by his emotions (failure No. 5)
f) Because all of his failures getting his ass kicked after 19 years of "ruling the republic space" (not galaxy).

Well...conclusion: Sidious failed because of his own dumbness, incompetence and the failures he made while all other people just failed because of betrayal which they couldn't prevent while Sidious had multiple chances to do so (kill Vader and take a new apprentice, find and kill Obi-Wan and / or Yoda, find and kill Luke etc.).

So please: Don't tell me again he was the greatest or one of the greatest Sith Lords.

A) Didn't kill all Jedi? He had ninty percent of them expired during the war. Still more than what any other Sith Lord has killed. Ragnos didn't kill all the Jedi. Revan didn't kill all the Jedi. So obviously this isn't something you can just pin on Sidious.

B) Amazing. Sidious sent Anakin to take care of the Trade Federation. He did not know Obi-Wan was going to show up and duel with him. Sidious may indeed be a master of foresight - but not even Yoda can predict such moves. Also, I seem to recall Sidious having his own battle with Yoda during this time. Not so much a failure as a victim of circumstance. Again, nice try.

C) Sidious wasn't aware of Padme's pregnancy. And if he was, he had probably deduced that her twins died during labor - along with the mother. He wasn't aware of Skywalker until the destruction of the Death Star.

D) He tried to rectify his mistake by sending Mara to slay Luke before Vader could get ahold of him again. I will consent that this is a failure. But Sidious wasn't perfect. Neither were any other Sith Lords. Hence their own inexorable defeats.

E) Last time I checked, Nai, a Sith gets his or her power from dealing in emotions. Sidious had a lot of hate in him, and enjoyed seeing Luke suffer. He was vindictive.

F) Getting his ass kicked? Hmmm. He fried Luke and killed Vader - albeit dying in the process. Revan - when he was betrayed - didn't do anything to Malak. So Revan got his ass kicked. Sidious didn't. And please, please please tell me where it says that Sidious controlled only Republic space? And even IF he did - it was a helluva a lot more than anyone else ruled. I kinda find it funny how you haven't seem to grasp that concept yet. Correction. It was FAR more than any other Sith has controlled.

In conclusion. Sidious failed because of a love between a father and a son, and a little prophecy that spelled out his inevitable demise. Yes, he made errors. I - unlike you Nai - am the first to admit when even my favorite character makes a mistake. I don't cover it up with "well, he did this wrong - BUT STILL...". Sidious made errors. End of the story. And yet, he still did more than any other Sith before him and any other Sith since him - it technically ENDED with Sidious, too.

And please. Don't tell me what to do. The majority of the proof supports me, Nai. Not you. Time for you to check those eyes of yours and have a stance similar to my own. I'm not completely biased. You are, actually, more so.

I compliment you on the argument however. I'm looking forward to what you have to say next.

hey do you have a cool pic of darth maul i can use

90% of all Jedi? The Jedi were dwindling as it were. Sidious had the intrinsic advantage of being clandestined. It was 1000 years since the Jedi encountered the Sith, there was not a Jedi alive that had ever faced one until Qui Gon did.

As for Revan not killing Jedi, he killed a hell of a lot more Jedi than Sidious did. How many Jedi did Sidious have confirmed kills on?



It was his failure to kill Obi-Wan in the first place that caused Obi-Wan to go duel and hack up Anakin. Now you're going to say something along the lines of "The clone troopers didn't do their job," right?



So was he aware or wasn't he?

You say he wasn't, but then you say in the even he was, he deduced they were did. That doesn't show good debating, that shows indecisiveness in your own argument.



Ragnos was never defeated, fact #1.
Revan may still have a shot.

And individuals like Sadow and Kun had absolutely no way to have stopped their betrayals. Then you add what they managed to accomplish on the side, and they clearly outrank Sidious.



No. Emotions are a doorway to power -- which is the ultimate things Sith want to achieve, but emotions do not HAVE TO pervade the individual, especially when they blind them to losing power.



Revan got his ass kicked, right. That explains why Revan was still ALIVE and Sidious was DEAD. Right? That must explain some cloaked figure killing Malak later, right?

Sidious got his ass kicked by someone with one hand. Don't twist this around, he got thrown into a reactor core. He died, he was owned, he got his ass kicked, end of story. If you really believe individuals like Sadow, Ragnos, Revan, Kun, or Nadd would have been thrown down by Vader, you are daft.



You did admit he made errors? The only time you did that was in point "D", and even then, you had to add the snide remark that he made fewer errors than all the previous Sith, which ISN'T true.



I suppose reading a few EU works does help this cause.

Illustrious. Are you saying when one gets one's ass kicked that one has to die? Lol. By Nai's definition, Sidious got his ass kicked. Sidious - at least - took Vader with him (via Force Lightning). Malak attacked Revan in a similar way. Vader knew he couldn't defeat Sidious one on one, so in order to save his son - he adapted a strategy like Sidious. Take the advantage. And so he did. Malak, did the same. The difference is that Vader died in the attempt to kill his master. Malak did too, just not at that time.

And need I remind you that Vader's one arm is stronger than most men's two?

Lol, if Sidious and Obi-Wan ever dueled - Sidious would grind him into dust. So yes. It was indeed the failure of the Clone Troopers to kill Obi-Wan.

No. Don't be daft. You are ignoring the one point that doesn't fit your argument: it doesn't matter if that one point is ridiculously critical, it only matters, apparently for you, that the one point is counterintuitive to your point.

Revan didn't DIE from Malak's betrayal, Sidious DIED because of Vader.



And need I remind you that Naga Sadow's one hand is stronger than Vader's whole body? And Naga Sadow was one of 19 other Sith Lords, ALL OF THEM under Ragnos' feet. Sadow himself later kept a good number of Sith Lords in check as well.



No, it was his mistake. He grossly underestimated the abilities and effectiveness of Obi-Wan.

You can say all you want about "Obi-Wan would have been ground into dust," but the point is, he didn't kill Obi-Wan when he had the chance, and that same Obi-Wan maimed Anakin and trained Luke -- two key mistakes that led to his downfall. The fact he didn't even ATTEMPT to fight Obi-Wan means he's a cowardly bastard -- not a commendable feat.



Oh right, where is the rest of the debate? Did you pick apart the ONE object that I wasn't trying to argue you with? This is called Straw Man logical fallacy. So either cough off the rest of the argument, or stop trying to debate with me -- you're being quite boring.

Lol you remind me quite of Sidious. You do make good points, I will consent. But your arrogance is astounding. So. Tell me.

1. Are you dismissing Sidious's conquering of the galaxy - and I do not mean the methods - is a trivial matter unworthy of notification?

2. Are you also dismissing Sidious's unrivaled manipulating skills?

3. Are you implying in the slightest that despite all of his achievements, Sidious - Force powers, saber skills, manipulation skills, and overall effect on the galaxy is pathetic?

I will also admit to the fact that Revenge of The Sith totally ruined the character. Sidious - in the Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones - was always running the show. He manipulated the Republic and the Separatists. He also thoroughly deceived the entire Jedi Order. He shared a unique - not totally, mind you, but an excellent trait - ability to cloak himself from the Jedi.

Two of the biggest wars in galactic history were brought on and then manipulated by Sidious. His tactics spoke of extreme cowardice and unwillingness to take immense risks that jeoparadized his life.

But you would be lying - Illustrious - if you dismiss Sidious's achievements as nothing.

*puts on flame suit*, well im gonna get flamed big time for this , ( i may not even mean it but oh well)

Darth Vader owns ALL sith lords!!!! "take that you winged spawn of satan!!!!!!!!"

What, you want me to lie that your logical fallacy is entertaining and filled with knowledge? No chance.



Would you consider Hitler as a greater figure than Washington simply because he had more zealots under his command? He did conquer the Republic, but you are GROSSLY underestimating the Sith Empire and its esteem as well as grossly overestimating the methods he used to conquer it.



Unrivaled? Ragnos and Sadow likely had just as great manipulative skills.



Any of the named Ancient Sith, from Simus to Revan, would dispatch Sidious. Did he affect the Galaxy? Sure, but did he affect it more than the lasting effects of a full scale galactic war like Sadow, Kun, or Revan? Not necessarily. Simply because you KNOW the effects of Sidious does not mean he is greater than the other individuals.



He had the advantage of being able to cloak himself because of the lack of KNOWLEDGE from the Jedi. No Jedi, up until Qui-Gon, had even seen a Sith. They were thought to be extinct for 1000 years. The Jedi, like Mace or Yoda, even sensed the Dark Side clouding their force powers, but they did not believe it was the Sith menace until it was too late, and they had no reason to suspect a Sith Lord was so close to home.

Kun managed to mask his presence when people KNEW about the Sith, there were individuals in the Jedi Order that knew and feared the uprising of the old Sith Empire, he was not covert and still accomplished effectively the same thing. That is a greater feat.



Bigger than several of the Sith Wars? Perhaps, but then again, you had Grievous leading the Seperatist forces, does that mean he is great? The act of declaring/leading sides in a war does not inherently make you good.



No, I didn't dismiss it as nothing, but it's not enough to make Sidious the best Sith ever, that honor goes to an individual like Ragnos, Sadow, Kun, or (a distant 4th) Revan.

who voted other? i cant think of anyone except Maul or Dooku and Dantheman was banned so it's not Maul. DS Anakin maybe?

Yeah Sidious pales in comparison to Kreia when it comes to manipulation. And what did Sidious do that anyone else in his position couldn't have done? Sidious sucks, get over it.

Sidious is the beat at Hide and Go Seek

Illustrious. I did admit - and have so on several occasions - that the methods Sidious used were not great. But his goal was. And he was the only Sith to ever conquer the Republic. So please do not act like I have not. Sidious did conquer the Republic. A feat Revan never accomplished and a feat that Ragnos never did.

Sidious is up there. Like it or not. Hate him or not. In terms of affects on the galaxy - he is far ahead from anyone else.

He is great. One of the greatest - if not the. Moreso than Revan, I'm afraid. Ragnos is his only competition.

No. Sidious does not suck.

Kreia was good, I will and have admitted. She and Sidious would make a lovely couple - if they wouldn't be plotting endlessly against one another. Achilles, Sidious does not suck - and that is amazingly biased of you to say.

Sidious manipulated the Republic. The Separatists. The politicians. The Rebels. The Empire. Vader. Dooku. Obi-Wan. Yoda. Mace. All of them. They were pawns - like it or not - to him.

He is a mastermind and a manipulator of a legendary status.

The Republic is not the entire galaxy, you said earlier he conquered the galaxy itself. Even as Emperor, he had very little power outside the mid rim.

As for the other two accomplishing it. WOW! You mean Sidious can accomplish more than a Dark Lord that wasn't even trying? Or a Sith Lord that had the Galaxy on its knees before he was betrayed? Amazing.



Laughable. His affects had no where near the effects of individuals from the Ancient Sith. Had they not been around, none of the Sith would be. Individuals like Ragnos, Sadow, Hord, Pall, Kressh all had far greater effects on later generations than Sidious. Where was Sidious' influence in the NJO, for example?



Since when do you tell others what to think? And you're saying I was being arrogant, please.

Illustrious - it is also widely speculated that it was because of Sidious that the Jedi's ability to use the Force diminished so rapidly. Proof does indeed indicate that he is worthy of legendary status in terms of ability. I also do not grossly over-estimate Sidious. I have, time and time again openly admitted Sidious's weaknesses. His arrogance and cowardice are two of his biggest crippling traits. But he is a master manipulator.

The Hitler comparison is healthy and understandable. Hitler was a very powerful speaker. His enemies - even to this day - recognize Hitler as a very dangerous person. I do not agree with Hitler - nor do I admire him. But he was easily one of the most influential and most important figures of modern history - and is the poster child for evil and ruthlessness.

Sidious and he are alike in many ways. But Sidious did what no other has done. He ended the Republic. He then created the most powerful tyrannical regime the galaxy had ever known.

He has a list of accomplishments not worthy of the dismissal and lack of respect that you give him. You give Revan more credit than Sidious. I will also admit that Revan is stronger and braver than Sidious. But in the terms of actual accomplishments - he isn't much.

Plus his reign was very short compared to ancient sith. he was emperor for what like 20 years? Other Sith Lords ruled for like twice as long, and in Ragnos' case almost four times as long.

Revan was indeed trying to conquer the Republic. Perhaps not to rule it, but his goal was to conquer them so he could utilize them against his enemies. In order to do so, he needed to defeat them. And he did not. At the same time, Sidious was in control of the galaxy and likely would have stayed that way had there not been a last betrayal on Vader's part as well. So what is it that you're implying?

And yes, I did say he conquered the galaxy. He was the undisputed ruler of it. As I also said earlier - no rule is absolute. No one but the Rebellion ever tried to take down the Empire. Explain to me why that is so.

Achilles. Ragnos ruled an empire, yes. A powerful empire, yes. But he didn't control a sliver of what Sidious did - in terms of area. Quality and quantity are different. Ragnos had the advantage - perhaps in quality. But in quantity - Sidious controlled the most for the longest.

Lol thats a huge assumption. Can you tell me how many worlds each one ruled over? I highly doubt it.

I will continue to argue this time and time again. Most dismiss Sidious as weak, un-intelligent, and unworthy of any respect or a status of legend. But he did conquer the Republic. No one else did it. Say what you will, but it is true.

1) Who conquered the Republic?
Sidious. Damn. I was hoping someone would argue that he didn't. Lo and behold - no one can.

2) Who ruled the galaxy?
Sidious. He may not have controlled it all - but he was the dominant force in it that only the Rebellion dared to dispute. And even they knew they couldn't defeat the Empire one-on-one.

3) Who created the GALACTIC Empire?
Sidious. The Star Wars site refers to it as the most powerful regime in the galaxy's history. Surprise, surprise, Sidious was in charge of it.

4) Who engineered the ruin of the Jedi Order?
Sidious. Thanks to him, the Jedi Order was obliterated. The only survivers had to flee. They knew this was a battle that they couldn't win. Yoda fleed. Obi-Wan did as well.

5) Who orchestrated two major galactic wars?
Sidious. The wars were started and manipulated by him. He won the first and lost the second. A mistake, I will admit.

6) Who managed to share the same planet as the entire Jedi Order and maintain undetected?
Sidious. Exar Kun did it. Cool. A trait that only two people - known - have possessed. And Kun is more powerful than Sidious. So that speaks a lot of Sidious's Force connection.

7) Who met face to face with the Jedi Masters and managed to walk out alive - and still in control of the Republic?
Sidious.

8) Who else has performed 1-3?
No one.

End. Of. Story.

Can you tell me that the Sith Empire ruled over more? I HIGHLY doubt that.

He is a good manipulator, but that alone does not make you the best, or anywhere near the best, Sith.



You didn't answer my question.

Would you consider Hitler a better man than Washington? Someone who can orate the stars into coming out for him vs. an individual that has that presence, he could lead anybody to jump off a cliff with him, and command over any room he enters. Would you consider Hitler a better man?



Most powerful? That's debatable. The Empire had 2 force users. The Sith Empire had thousands, potentially many, many more underlings. Sadow himself commanded the Massassi, for example, who were all very fearsome warriors. The Republic that went against Kun and Sadow were VASTLY different than the fragmented republic that Sidious conquered. The Republic then had a Jedi Order that served as warriors, where they could send thousands of Jedis to attack an individual -- like they did with Kun.

Sidious simply took advantage of a perfect niche, the Republic was so ignorant of the Sith, it were practically screaming "Hit me here."



The list is the BEST SITH. The Sith follow the ideology that power > everything else. Revan, held more personal power, and at the height of his campaign, had the empire on his knees until Malak backstabbed him. That doesn't mean Sidious wasn't great, that just means you're overestimating his greatness OR underestimating the greatness of ancient Sith.



"had there not been a last betrayal on Vader's part"? I could just as easily say "Revan would have conquered the galaxy had it not been for Malak." Revan nearly took the galaxy by force, Sadow and Kun as well, if not for betrayals as well. And you can argue that height of their power, they were greater than Sidious.



How many "rebellions" do you need to know that your rule was not absolute? The fact there was only 1 centralized rebellion doesn't prove anything. You're grasping at straws with this one.



Really?

Sidious controlled the core worlds, and most of the mid rim. He had very little power over places and the surrounding area of places like Endor, Hoth, Yavin, Hutt Space, Nar Shadda, the area of the Old Sith Empire (Korriban, Ziost, Malachor, etc.) Sidious didn't have direct control over MUCH of the Galaxy. In fact, past the mid rim, most of their lives were not touched at all with the changing of the regimes. Example: the Hutts still ruled Hutt space -- the republic, nor the Empire, changed any of that.

Face it, Sidious didn't have the galaxy; hell a large part of the galaxy is unexplored, and he sent people to do it. His grasp was large, but not as large as you try to make it out to be. That's what you call overrating.



And where the hell is your response to the influence question? Stop dodging points that puncture your argument.

This is from the Wikipedia site.

"In the fictional Star Wars universe, the First Galactic Empire was the regime established by Palpatine to replace the Galactic Republic. It consisted of over one million member worlds and fifty million colonies, protectorates and governorships." -- Wikipedia entry.

Wikipedia is a well-used source. It is impossible to say whether or not this information is legitimate, but nothing really conflicts with it. It does not give a world count for the Sith Empire. But Ragnos's Empire, it states, was beyond Revan's. And here's what it says about Ragnos's.

"The Sith Empire was far smaller than the Republic, but wealthier."

So. Even IF Sidious conquered ONLY the Republic - his Empire was indeed larger than the Sith version. Illustrious even said that the Sith Empire was smaller than the Republic.

So...nevermind. I did give you a world count Achilles.

I read that the GE had over a milloin planets in a book once for sure and I'm pretty sure I read the same thing about the colonies. It was in a post-movie book. I dont think it was NJO though.

Illustrious - no rule is absolute. How many times need I say that?

And. The Republic was the same. Sidious really had no true opposition other than the order. He was in control of the Separatists and the Republic. Revan, for all of his immense tactical brilliance, did not control both sides of the war.

Sidious did. Another remarkable accomplishment from him.

And I am sorry to say that as for your influence question, I am unaware. I didn't read much of the NJO series. I wasn't a fan of the Vong and I heard that there weren't any Sith Lords in it. So I didn't think it as a good read.

Lack of information on my part. I consent to you, because you are better informed than myself. But Sidious is a subject where I am very well informed.

To me, and as many sites indicate, he is a Sith Lord of immense skill and cunning. His manipulation skills are unrivaled - in the time at the very least. Wikipedia says he's the greatest. Star Wars official site hints at it - they don't state even Ragnos was the greatest. I dunno if he even has an entry.

Sidious's accomplishments - as Illustrious has proven - is not so easily dismissed. Not concrete but not so easily to evade.

Yeah, well wikipedia also talks about the most powerful Sith Lord ever, the Jawa dictator Lord Janus. Anyone can put anything they want in wikipedia. And are there even millions of worlds in the Star Wars universe? I was under the impression of hundreds of thousands but not millions. That sounds like a huge stretch to me.

So, Illustrious. Perhaps you're right. Perhaps not. This is all a matter of opinion, in all actuality. Even your proof does not mean you're right. If Lucas comes out and says Ragnos was greater, I will apologize. Until then - I still hold to my beliefs.

Achilles.

1) Wikipedia is indeed something that any person can edit. But Glen here says that he read in a book the same thing.

2) What sounds like a stretch to you doesn't mean it's untrue.

It's a million member planets with a possible total of twelve million. These are just member planets. There is only one member planet per system I believe. THe actually number is higher. The colonies are on moons and remote planets. There are also a lot of colonies in asteriods.

Jeez it seems Ragnos is down right popular.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Illustrious - no rule is absolute. How many times need I say that?

And. The Republic was the same. Sidious really had no true opposition other than the order. He was in control of the Separatists and the Republic. Revan, for all of his immense tactical brilliance, did not control both sides of the war.

Sidious did. Another remarkable accomplishment from him.

And I am sorry to say that as for your influence question, I am unaware. I didn't read much of the NJO series. I wasn't a fan of the Vong and I heard that there weren't any Sith Lords in it. So I didn't think it as a good read.

Lack of information on my part. I consent to you, because you are better informed than myself. But Sidious is a subject where I am very well informed.

To me, and as many sites indicate, he is a Sith Lord of immense skill and cunning. His manipulation skills are unrivaled - in the time at the very least. Wikipedia says he's the greatest. Star Wars official site hints at it - they don't state even Ragnos was the greatest. I dunno if he even has an entry.

Sidious's accomplishments - as Illustrious has proven - is not so easily dismissed. Not concrete but not so easily to evade.

God, you love that Sidious, don't you? You need to get out more.

- The Republic was NOT the same, and I doubt you even know what the hell you're talking about. All I'm seeing from you is dodging Illustrious' excellent points and spouting off fanboyism.

- You're comparing Revan, Malak, Kun, Sadow's direct war with the Republic to Sidious' coup of the Republic. Different guidelines. In an age when Sith were extinct, the senate corrupt, the jedi complacent and no opposition to his power -within- the Sith underworld, whereas the former all fought to keep their positions from other Sith while fighting the Republic to completely control it. And their long lasting effects, the way their names were whispered in fear, reached much longer in time than did Sidious.

- "Wikipedia says he's the greatest". It says that abotu Yoda, Revan, Ragnos, Bob, Tom, and the cat. Please, don't cite bullshit. Better yet, don't post it either.

- Sidious' accomplishments somehow make him greater than all these others? Whatever. You are hopeless.

I have consent to the fact that Illustrious did indeed win the argument. He is much better informed than myself, but his word is not law nor does that make him - or you for that matter - right, Janus.

This is all mass speculation. Nothing more. There is no quote or no absolute statement declaring the greatest of the Sith Lords. Not Ragnos. Not Revan. Not Sidious.

It is my belief that Sidious is the greatest of the Sith for doing that which no other Sith Lord could do, but it is my belief. And you, Janus, may not tell me what to do or what to believe - and attempt to discredit me by calling me a fanboy.

Perhaps I am. Perhaps not. Still, your judgment isn't final. It is totally irrelevant to me. So, perhaps, you need to consider the fact that I simply don't CARE what you think?

If you don't care what other people here think, why do you come here?

Point.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Illustrious - no rule is absolute. How many times need I say that?

Ragnos rule over the Sith Empire was absolute. How many times need I say that ?



Now listen again. The Republic in Sidious times had passed the Ruusan Reformation which made the Jedi:
a) diplomats where they were warriors before (wearing Robes instead of armour)
b) controlable through political organs
c) part of the Republic.

In times before that the Jedi Order was an institution which was indepentant from the Republic that means: They could fight wars as they liked it and they were not influenced by politics and diplomacy.

Now this is the case in Sidious times. He has a much easier game with the Order since they are under his command or at least under the command of an political organisation within the Republic. If any Sith Lord before the Ruusan Reformation would have tried what Sidious tried he would have failed because their would have been no way for him to control the Jedi or make them fight the war against the separatists.



See why he could do it. Not to mention that there were 2 sides in every war of a Sith. The ancient Sith Lords had to keep entire armies of Dark Siders under their control while fighting the Republic. Sidious couldn't even keep Vader - a single Sith Lord - under his control.



His manipulation skills are unrivaled ? Well...Ragnos manipulated 20 Sith Lords in fighting each other or him while Sidious manipulated what ? The Senate (only non-force-users): Easy. The Jedi Order ? In which situations ? Anakin and Dooku ? Well...ok...

Wikipedia tells you about Darth Janus, and his Sith Jawas...

Ragnos has no entry. Revan also has none because they pretty much focus on the films. Only two non-film-Sith they have entries about are Exar Kun and Ulic Quel-Droma, imho.

Darth Somebody sometimes I can't tell you and Great Vengence apart.

Vengeance doesn't come here anymore. . .

He used to and Darth Somebody is starting to sound like Great Vengence when GV used to come here.

That guy was kind of annoying. . . but Somebody's way more literate.

Yea but he is a Vader fanboy despite his literacy.

They are a lot alike, especially since DS is here more and GV less.

Ah, I didn't factor in their, er, supporting of Vader,

Hey whatever happened to Vercetti anyway?

He probably crawled back into the womb of n00bism.