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I guess you could say I had a little disagreement about this a couple days ago. I don't think its been done before I used the search button.

does sion still have the immortality

Doesn't matter if he does or not... Sion wins.

Sure why not.

probably sion anyway

I say Maul. In my opinion has shown how powerful he is by defeating two descently powerful Jedi Masters in Qui-Gon Jinn and Anoon Bondara.

Yeah, but Sion was a leader among Sith, not some Sith apprentice in a time of relative peace.

Alright name two people Sion has killed.

The two duards in the cutscene on the Harbringer

1) Everyone on the Harbinger.

2) Master Vash.

Sorry let me rephrase that, two Force users.

master vash and he would have killed darth traya(with a little help from nihilus

but thats still help on his own sion killed vash but ill still take sion i belive in kotor times a jedi/sith was more skilled i think that jedi/sith have weaken through the ages

So it has to be two Force users? What, is an Old Republic council member not worth anything?

Don't discredit Sion... He survived the upheaval during the Sith Civil War on Korriban, and escaped onto Malachor V, where he was taught by a Sith more powerful and wise than Sidious.

Darth Maul was totally subservient to his master (Unlike a true Sith) and was murdered by a padawan.

There's no question that the Sith weakened. As far as Jedi weakening, I believe they will weaken as a result of the Sith waning. When the Jedi are powerful, so are the Sith, and vice versa.

Wasent master Vash killed when she was captured and stuck in a cage? Anyway I think Sion will take this because off his war experience and his power.

Sion put Vash in the cage, using her as bait for the Exile. This shows that he succesfully was powerful enough to incapacitate(sp?) a Jedi Master and keep her subdued.

But more to the point, Sion would win. Maul is a mindless drone, or seems like one, and wouldn't be persuasive or smart enough to wear down Sion's hatred and will to live, which is the only way to kill him.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Darth Maul was totally subservient to his master (Unlike a true Sith) and was murdered by a padawan.

Burn! Poor Maul...

Sion cant die. He feeds of his own pain. Maul dosent stand a chance.

He can only kill himself

If Sion only dies once, I think Maul would take it easy. Otherwise Sion, no doubt.

How so? Sion lead the Sith Assassins who purged the Jedi survivors. Maul was probably the equivalent of one of the better Assassins.

Hardly, those Assassins merely fed off the Force of other Force users, without strong opponents, they weren't strong themselves.

True, bad point. But I don't know, someone like him has got to be capable of defeating Maul. And he was Darth Traya's top Apprentice alongside Nihilus, showing he was superior to dozens and dozens of others. He's easily superior to Bandon, who could definately take Maul.

How is he easily superior to Bandon? I am going to reduce his life count to three lives.

He has to be. Bandon was chosen as apprentice to Malak from his various followers and acolytes. Sion was chosen out of the best Sith at the Academy, the ones who passed all the trials and tests put forth by Traya. And like I said, he was right next to Nihilus under Traya, and was one of the two leaders of the Sith forces after his Master's exile. Plus, just think about it. It just seems logical. I'm not saying that Sion would own Bandon. But he's certainly capable of defeating him.

And btw, I thought he had one death. . .

Then you seriously underestimate Maul.

How do I underestimate Maul?

You are pretty much saying Sion can beat people like Qui-Gon, Anoon Bondara, Kit Fisto, AOTC Obi-Wan, and ROTS Anakin. But Sion could take some of these people.

Well, yeah, he probably could. Qui-Gon? Anoon? Kit and Anakin are the only pretty good people here, Kit not even that much when compared to others. Anakin? Why not? He was capable of incapacitating/killing a KOTOR time Council Member.

But how powerful is that council member?

In my opinion, almost everyone with a little bit of brains cold kill Anakin. He sucks really because of all you have to do is taunt him and he will make a rash desicion which will be suicide for him.

genises, this isn't twenty questions, lol. But that Council member, having lived through two wars, was probably pretty good. Now speculation? Of course. But see Maul only killed two people worthy of notice, and although it is due to his arrogance, he got chopped in two by a padawan. That padawan Obi-Wan would become in ROTS, far better than Maul. And Sion would give him a fight, if not kill him. I'd say Sion was under Dooku, but above Maul for sure.

So your saying if Maul lived he wouldn't be as powerful as ROTS Obi-Wan.

*sigh* The fact is, Maul didn't live. This isn't "Maul if he'd lived to ROTS." This is TPM Maul. Don't complicate things, lol. Now, a Maul who'd survived 'till ROTS would be a force to be reckoned with, for sure. he'd probably be able to beat Obi-Wan, Anakin, any of the Council members save for Mace and Yoda, who'd still take him, and many others. But TPM Maul? he'd going down. Plain and simple.

Oh well its your opinion and your not changing it.

Well you haven't given me anything that can show otherwise.

Because there is only one book on him and he is on screen for like twelve minutes in TPM.

Then why do you think Maul can take Sion?

Good question.

Let's compare knowledge:

Sion
- Trained with other Sith, eventually becoming one of two leaders in the post-Jedi Civil War times.
- Lead the original 'Jedi Purge'.
- Has apparently mastered his own pain enough to survive and think while in constant agony, with thousands of breaks and fractures in his body (Let's see Maul do -that-).
- Obviously had access to better lore than Maul, and more of it since he eventually become a master, not some subservient pawn.

Maul
- Trained with Sidious, a rather inactive Sith in a time of peace, who got himself pwned by Mace Windu and almost pwned by Yoda.
- His lore was extremly restricted since he was never meant to be anything more than an assassin and errand boy.
- Was killed by a padawan, having let his guard down foolishly. Also, that same angered padawan had him on his back, saber nearly split in two.

Well...Sion would own Maul...

Even though thinking of a Maul that would have lived on to ROTS times: He would still be weaker than ROTS Sidious meaning Mace, Yoda and Dooku would be able to take him down.
In TPM times he is more a Dark Jedi than a Sith Lord. He's not able to use any special "sith" powers (lightning) and while he's quite good with a lightsaber his arrogance weakens him and - at least - is responsible for his death.

Now. Sion was the leader of the Sith assasins in KotoR times meaning he might be responsible for many killed Jedi (this includes at least 1 Jedi Council Member but could also include another 6 council Members and dozens of Jedi). We know that he must be a great lightsaber duellist (probably form II practioneer like Dooku) and well...at least he can't be killed.

So even if this would be a fight between a Maul that had lived another 13 years from TPM to ROTS and Sion, Sion would win because:

a) having more knowledge about the force
b) being the better duellist (probably)
c) he can't be killed

Well said.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...Sion would own Maul...

Even though thinking of a Maul that would have lived on to ROTS times: He would still be weaker than ROTS Sidious meaning Mace, Yoda and Dooku would be able to take him down.
In TPM times he is more a Dark Jedi than a Sith Lord. He's not able to use any special "sith" powers (lightning) and while he's quite good with a lightsaber his arrogance weakens him and - at least - is responsible for his death.

Now. Sion was the leader of the Sith assasins in KotoR times meaning he might be responsible for many killed Jedi (this includes at least 1 Jedi Council Member but could also include another 6 council Members and dozens of Jedi). We know that he must be a great lightsaber duellist (probably form II practioneer like Dooku) and well...at least he can't be killed.

So even if this would be a fight between a Maul that had lived another 13 years from TPM to ROTS and Sion, Sion would win because:

a) having more knowledge about the force
b) being the better duellist (probably)
c) he can't be killed

You have passed the test set forth by Janus. By the Order of the New Jawa Order, I hereby pronounce you Jawa Sith Master.

*Insert Jawa Gregorian chanting here*

What's his title again?

Meh. . . I don't know, what did you have in mind? Master of Jawa *insert here*?

And Jawa Sith Master sounds kinda retarded. I think we need Knights of the New Jawa Order. Ye. Oooteenie!

The Bullet Point Master of Jawa Debate and Sithery

Mwahaah. . . I thought everything started with "Master", though. Ah, **** it.

Nai Fohl. I hereby pronounce you Jawa Fohl, Bullet Point Master of Debate and Sithery.

Ok !

lmao! Score!

Our first recruit! Oooteenie! The Count, or "Master of Aggressive Negotiations", will be pleased upon his permamanent return.

maul doesn't have the intelligence to convince sion to die he gets owned.

He may have the intelligence, he just doesn't have anything to convince Sion to die and he isn't powerful enough to just beat him down and keep him there.

Maul has a lot more knowledge than he's given credit for, he trained his entire life to be the perfect Sith, and he did well. It's true he wouldn't have the knowledge or perhaps experience of Sion, but if Sion only dies once than I believe Maul would take him.

Sion probably defeated that one council member, but remember, he could come back infinite times and had many Sith assassins with him as well. Maul defeated a Council worthy master and his apprentice who was basically a Jedi knight, at the same time. These two had fought together for a dozen years, and Qui-Gon even described Maul as a "living example of how one should use the Force" or something like that.

I know game mechanics don't count, but we can't really gauge Sion's power otherwise. The Exile can beat him once without a lightsaber, right after Telos (first time) and Sion is way way easier (one death only) than Nihilus for instance, leading me to believe Sion has more knowledge, but if he only dies once he would lose to Maul.

Assasins don't work in groups. Its not effective, Sion would have killed people on his own, he has more experience with fighting Jedi then Maul does and he has killed more, how could he be weaker? He was trained all his life as well, perhaps not all his life in the Dark Side but he seems to control it better then Maul does. Who seriously lacks Dark Side powers compared to Sion. Imagine the control over the force somebody like he would need to stay alive, its not an easy feat definitly not something Maul could do.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Maul has a lot more knowledge than he's given credit for, he trained his entire life to be the perfect Sith, and he did well. It's true he wouldn't have the knowledge or perhaps experience of Sion, but if Sion only dies once than I believe Maul would take him.

Sion probably defeated that one council member, but remember, he could come back infinite times and had many Sith assassins with him as well. Maul defeated a Council worthy master and his apprentice who was basically a Jedi knight, at the same time. These two had fought together for a dozen years, and Qui-Gon even described Maul as a "living example of how one should use the Force" or something like that.

I know game mechanics don't count, but we can't really gauge Sion's power otherwise. The Exile can beat him once without a lightsaber, right after Telos (first time) and Sion is way way easier (one death only) than Nihilus for instance, leading me to believe Sion has more knowledge, but if he only dies once he would lose to Maul.

- What is Maul's knowledge that he ISN'T getting credit for? Any EU sources?

- How does this knowledge affect his ability to fight an ancient Sith lord when his kills a primarily Pax Republica aged Jedi who have never fought Sith before?

- If Sion only dies once... Well, considering Sion kills himself and is not actually killed in saber combat due to his mastery of his own body, this would mean he could endure tons of punishment, since the only way he could be defeated is if his body was say, engulfed in flames, or he wanted to die. Since neither scenario is likely, this whole thread is ridiculous in that regard. Sion is Sion, not Sion- Round One only.

- The Sith assassins are a possible undermining of Sion's capture and murder of Master Vash. We can assume that either Sion let his Sith assassins wear her down to capture her (possible) or that he directly aided and/or captured her himself (Also possible). All we truly know is that Sion has obviously overcome a Jedi master through means.

- Back to game mechanics... How easy or hard the battle was is not a factor here. Like I've said before, I could use the console and have Arca Jeth robes and a lightsaber with an altima pearl and the kaiburr crystal and mince his ass... But you must go by reality.... The Exile FLED the first battle with Sion, whether or not he had a lightsaber at this time (As you can do it both ways). Kreia urged him on, saying he was not ready, and he ran along with his cohorts. So Sion was better than the Exile at one point, and possibly still could be the better duellist. The Exile simply sapped his will effectively on Malachor V.

So you can become a Jawa Sith Master? Wow. Just wow.

Sion didn't lead the Jedi Purge. There really was no official purge like int he movies. The jeedai were simply worn down from years of war, from The Great Sith War, The Mandalorian Wars, and the Jeedai Civil War. If any one person is responsible it's got to be Malak, he took out a huge chunk of the jeedai population with the destruction of the academy on Dantooine.

Anywho, I think Sion definitely takes this. While not necassarily being on par with other Sith Lords of his time and before him, he was still a Sith Lord of the Old Republic and ruled over many Sith vying for power in a time of war. Maul is much too hard headed and inexperience to take Sion. Although I must say, Maul is the only Sith from the movies that I could see Sion taking out.

Actually, I can see Dooku and Sidious defeating Sion long before Maul.

That's what I said dude......