Organised religion creates more problems than it solves?
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xmarksthespot
~ Throughout human history the institutionalized religions have contributed far more to creating problems in the world than they have contributed to solving them. ~
To what extent do you agree or disagree with this statement?
And why?
finti
I agree cause it is the truth, the fact of pushing/forcing ones faith and whats goes with that faith on others makes up great part of our history
Shakyamunison
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
~ Throughout human history the institutionalized religions have contributed far more to creating problems in the world than they have contributed to solving them. ~
To what extent do you agree or disagree with this statement?
And why?
Religion has been used by powerful people to do evil things. So, I agree
finti
just to point out faith and religion aint only the christian way
Storm
Originally posted by Storm
Religion is a powerful factor in many conflicts around the world. Sometimes it is a cause for conflict, sometimes it simply helps sustain conflict, and other times it is used as a pretext for conflicts that have deeper roots in other issues.
xmarksthespot
Insightful stuff. But with the "And why?" I was looking more for specifics of how organised religion has contributed to the world's problems or contributed to solutions for them.
Atlantis001
I agree that some religions like christianity, judaism, islam,... involved in politics and cause more problems than they solved, but there are religions which never envolved in politics, like buddhism, hinduism, jainism,....
Evil Dead
yes Atlantis........but.....
if you had a magic genie who could grant you any wish you wanted. If that genie specificly asked you, "do you want me to make it so religion would never have existed?"............what would be your answer? There's always going to be some throwing out of the good with the bad.......but is it a fair price, would it be worth it?
the good men of religion throughout history would lose nothing, they would still be good men. All the bad things that have happend which has been attributed to religion would however be gone. Millions upon millions of innocent lives would be redeemed.
Atlantis001
I think religions should be like a branch of the philosophy, there is nothing wrong with philosophy, its just knowledge... and I like knowledge. There are religions which are like this.
xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Atlantis001
I think religions should be like a branch of the philosophy, there is nothing wrong with philosophy, its just knowledge... and I like knowledge. There are religions which are like this.
I like knowledge too, however I'm of the view that all knowledge should be dynamic and mutable as new information arises. Organised religion tends to indoctrinate an inflexible "knowledge".
debbiejo
Yes, and is very divisive...that's the main problems with it...It's always the US against THEM....the we are right and everybody is wrong...and will show you with our army of Missionaries...It's a missionary war.
It's crept into politics and has divided the country, used as a tool...
Of course there's the bloody history of the Inquisitions and the crusades...It's like McDonald's...It's everywhere.
Atlantis001
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I like knowledge too, however I'm of the view that all knowledge should be dynamic and mutable as new information arises. Organised religion tends to indoctrinate an inflexible "knowledge".
That I agree too. That is the problem of religions like Christianity, they try to explain the universe in a scientifically way, they want to do the science job, and they forget that god is a metaphysical concept. But there is religions who remain in the philosophical nature of religion. And I do not mean to indoctrinate philosophically the people, but they should be like philosophy is... a perpective.
debbiejo
Truth is always the enemy of power. And power the enemy of truth....So it is with religion.
Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Evil Dead
yes Atlantis........but.....
if you had a magic genie who could grant you any wish you wanted. If that genie specificly asked you, "do you want me to make it so religion would never have existed?"............what would be your answer? There's always going to be some throwing out of the good with the bad.......but is it a fair price, would it be worth it?
the good men of religion throughout history would lose nothing, they would still be good men. All the bad things that have happend which has been attributed to religion would however be gone. Millions upon millions of innocent lives would be redeemed.
I hate to say this, but I disagree. There will alway be wrong and great evil acts. Religion is not the cause of these evil acts nor is Satan. I admit, religion has done it's share of evil acts, but the responsibility falls on the shoulders of us, all of us over all of history.
The good news is, sense the cause is us, we are the only thing that can fix the problem. To cast the responsibility onto religion is to misdirect responsibility and remove any chance for change.
xmarksthespot
Originally posted by debbiejo
Truth is always the enemy of power. And power the enemy of truth....So it is with religion.
I agree. Freedom of thought and alternative interpretation seem all too often frowned upon and rebuked in many institutionalised religions, most probably out of fear that knowledge and thought will lead to the diminution of the power they wield over their masses.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I hate to say this, but I disagree. There will alway be wrong and great evil acts. Religion is not the cause of these evil acts nor is Satan. I admit, religion has done it's share of evil acts, but the responsibility falls on the shoulders of us, all of us over all of history.
The good news is, sense the cause is us, we are the only thing that can fix the problem. To cast the responsibility onto religion is to misdirect responsibility and remove any chance for change.
To an extent this is true, however if we cast niceties and platitudes aside we should realise some of the organised religions have prejudices and violent measures inbuilt into their texts. Also if one argues it is not so much religion but the people that sustain it causing problems, that begs the question: Is the tendency for organised religion to be problematic due to the head or the body - the clergy or the congregation?
Shakyamunison
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I agree. Freedom of thought and alternative interpretation seem all too often frowned upon and rebuked in many institutionalised religions, most probably out of fear that knowledge and thought will lead to the diminution of the power they wield over their masses.
To an extent this is true, however if we cast niceties and platitudes aside we should realise some of the organised religions have prejudices and violent measures inbuilt into their texts. Also if one argues it is not so much religion but the people that sustain it causing problems, that begs the question: Is the tendency for organised religion to be problematic due to the head or the body - the clergy or the congregation?
It's human nature to protect one self when you are in power. Religion is a human endeavor and alway will be. Buddhism teaches to take responsibility for your life, this is the only way you will have the power to change your life. If you project this onto the society level, then we (society) must take responsibility if we are to be able to fix society.
xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It's human nature to protect one self when you are in power. Religion is a human endeavor and alway will be. Buddhism teaches to take responsibility for your life, this is the only way you will have the power to change your life. If you project this onto the society level, then we (society) must take responsibility if we are to be able to fix society.
Buddhism is interesting in that, at least to someone from the outside looking in i.e. me, it appears to be equal parts philosophy on life and religious teachings. Can one believe in the philosophy of Buddhism without believing in the religion or are they inseparable? If someone takes on only the philosophical perspective (assuming that is possible) of Buddhism are they still considered a Buddhist?
xmarksthespot
Sort of like the Milgram Experiment, if you've heard of it? Some people will act differently and can be made to believe anything out of obedience if they are reassured by someone they consider an authority figure that they will not be held accountable.
Shakyamunison
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Buddhism is interesting in that, at least to someone from the outside looking in i.e. me, it appears to be equal parts philosophy on life and religious teachings. Can one believe in the philosophy of Buddhism without believing in the religion or are they inseparable? If someone takes on only the philosophical perspective (assuming that is possible) of Buddhism are they still considered a Buddhist?
Yes, we even have Christians who come to our meetings and chant with us. My religion is a personal religion, we do not have a preacher who gets up and tells us what to do. We do have study meetings, but they are more like discussion groups, were you read some part of what ever is decided before, and talk about it at the meeting. We have elders and an organizational structure, but that is there if we have questions or if we need help. For example, when my mother died I went to my elder to receive consoling, we then had a ceremony for the dead. However, most of my practice is done at home; in the morning and evening we do a ceremony called Gongyo and we chant.
Evil Dead
that could be a descrption of Adolf Hitler..........or a pope.........not a whole lot of difference. Hitler had his little holocaust with the jews in Germany.................the pope had his little holocaust with the native americans in north and south America.
finti
Another guru in the money
Another mantra in the mail
An easy way from rags to riches
God's little acre's up for sale -10cc
Shakyamunison
Originally posted by finti
Another guru in the money
Another mantra in the mail
An easy way from rags to riches
God's little acre's up for sale -10cc
I don't get it...
debbiejo
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Sort of like the Milgram Experiment, if you've heard of it? Some people will act differently and can be made to believe anything out of obedience if they are reassured by someone they consider an authority figure that they will not be held accountable.
People don't like to be held accountable...
Well also...if you tell people something over and over again they will start to believe it....and the more people that believe it, the harder it is to swim against the stream...
Many fish keep silent... the ones that don't keep getting spears thrown at them.
finti
its lyrics from a song and your word chant was the cue....the song carries words as guru and mantra which makes many to think of chant.......its just me playing around woth words......if I see a word that I can quote a song too I will
Shakyamunison
Originally posted by finti
its lyrics from a song and your word chant was the cue....the song carries words as guru and mantra which makes many to think of chant.......its just me playing around woth words......if I see a word that I can quote a song too I will
Thank you, music is very important in my life.
debbiejo
band
Lets all dance..........
finti
important to me too, Im a music freak and cant go anywhere without my mp3 player
debbiejo
Originally posted by finti
important to me too, Im a music freak and cant go anywhere without my mp3 player
You should get an implant then....
Shakyamunison
Originally posted by debbiejo
You should get an implant then....
borg
debbiejo
Originally posted by finti
maybe
I think for you..it would work....no more fiddlin with mp3's....
Shakyamunison
She's right, you know...
debbiejo
hysterical
You got to much time on your hands.....You never know...they might come out with implantable mp3's
CorderaMitchell
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
~ Throughout human history the institutionalized religions have contributed far more to creating problems in the world than they have contributed to solving them. ~
To what extent do you agree or disagree with this statement?
And why? I have to agree, for two reasons.
1. religion is in high numbers
2. religion in high numbers means more power, and through more power, more things are forced.
But there is a loop, religion and other beliefs, just dont have the same impact if you are the ONLY one that belive in it. See what I mean?
So people seek fellowship all of the time, lets face it, its nice to relate to people.
So there is two sides to everything.
xmarksthespot
Yep, and the point of this thread was to get both sides, and the neutral standpoint too. The virtues of organised religion, if one so believes, or the foibles of organised religion, if one so believes, or anything in between.
Religion definitely provides a hub for the formation of social networks, creating communities out of strangers.
lil bitchiness
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
~ Throughout human history the institutionalized religions have contributed far more to creating problems in the world than they have contributed to solving them. ~
To what extent do you agree or disagree with this statement?
And why?
I think modern religions are created for power. I do agree they cause more problems then they solve.
For the modern refrence, take a look at the Palestine and Israel - how does that practice any tolerance or love, both religions preach, is beyond me.
Lets face it - if everyone was a humanist or similar and did not believe that they will die and go to heaven, I doubt a lot of people will rage wars in the name of religion. I also doubt that anyone would be a suicide bomber if their reationalisation was ''after i blow myself up, and these people up, NOTHINg will happen. I will die and that will be the end of it''
It does cause more problems than it solves.
CorderaMitchell
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Yep, and the point of this thread was to get both sides, and the neutral standpoint too. The virtues of organised religion, if one so believes, or the foibles of organised religion, if one so believes, or anything in between.
Religion definitely provides a hub for the formation of social networks, creating communities out of strangers. It does, so there is good and bad with everything.
WE made organized religion, so its only fair to assume it has its flaws.
debbiejo
Well the good parts seem to be left off of different beliefs.....The essence is gone.......It is really sad....really it is............
ushomefree
The only religion in the world to my knowledge that promotes havoc and chaos is Islam. The Koran and the Hadith obligate all Muslims to wage Jihad on the Infidel (nonbeliever). Moreover, the significant amount of problems (past, present and future) in the world today are (and will be) a direct result of persons bent on money, power and respect. In any case, statements that organized religion creates more problems than it solves is empty and featureless. It all boils down to a persons mind set.
finti
an eye for an eye and the fact that the bible tells stories of how the "chosen people" conquered other people, now that promotes what?
debbiejo
Originally posted by ushomefree
The only religion in the world to my knowledge that promotes havoc and chaos is Islam. The Koran and the Hadith obligate all Muslims to wage Jihad on the Infidel (nonbeliever). Moreover, the significant amount of problems (past, present and future) in the world today are (and will be) a direct result of persons bent on money, power and respect. In any case, statements that organized religion creates more problems than it solves is empty and featureless. It all boils down to a persons mind set.
Christianity promotes intolerance though....
Shakyamunison
Infidel and heretic are the same thing.
Shakyamunison
Originally posted by finti
no actually those are two different words
I don't know what you mean, they look the same to me; both dead.
debbiejo
I don't want to be an infidel....I'm just gettin used to heretic...and heathen...
Shakyamunison
Originally posted by debbiejo
I don't want to be an infidel....I'm just gettin used to heretic...and heathen...
Isn't a heathen a heretic the Christans can't kill?
finti
didnt know the chrtistians were allowed to kill at all
debbiejo
Well, they did burn them at the steak..OH..stake...Not the yummy kind..
also all the boiling alive and incomprehensible things done to the victims of heretical beliefs...Though I did read that the majority were woman and even very young girls, because of superstitions...Woman being evil and associating with the devil...Man, you don't want to have a cat!
In 1524 1000 so called witches were burned at Como.
5000 in a period of 20 years in Strasbourg.
800 at one time in Savoy.
Parame stated that over 30,000 were executed in the 15th century.
A bishop of Bamberg claimed 600 in ten years.
1900 were killed in 5 years in Wurzburn.
400 in one day in Geneva and 400 in Toulouse.
7000 in Treves.
A Lutheran prelate Benedict Carpzov, who claimed to have read the Bible 53 times sentenced 20,000 devil worhippers. Even relatively permissive England killed 30,000 witches between 1542 and 1736..This went on for 5 centuries...
A TRUE CHRISTIAN WOULD NOT DO THIS...So..be careful..you shouldn't have to call youself a true chrisitan...actions speak louder than words.
ORGANIZED RELIGION CAUSES PROBLEMS...
CaptJackSparr0w
I don 't believe that organized religions, in itself, have caused more problems than it has resolved.
I believe that certain factions within the organized religions have created havoc through-out the world, and in more recent times, the havoc has been unfolding daily.
The Muslims are organized and are peaceful. The radicals within the Muslim religion are using their skewed views to cause destruction and tragedies in the world, all for their God.
The Christians are organized through several sects, such as Lutheran, Espiscopalian, Methodist, Evangelical, Christian Scientists, Catholics, both Roman and Greek, but there is a radical right to life group that will murder abortion clinic doctors to support their religion's view on right to life and antt-abortions.
The break off churches from these main bodies of religion,such as the Kabalyists from the Jews, form their own charter, not following traditional values.
My opinon, there is nothing wrong with religion being structured. Just as school is structured, the laws of the land are structured, people need to know there are guidelines to follow. Prayer is important but it's not the repetition of words but if we truly mean what we are praying about.
Attending the temple, church, on Saturday, Sunday or Friday isn't what is important but the gathering of people for the same reason, to praise and worship a divine being.
CaptJackSparr0w
and for myself, being a R. Catholic in a huge church, we, as a group are taking care of the homeless by building homes through HABITAT FOR HUMANITY, feeding the hungry, by handing out food baskets and groceries to thousands of families.
We help the elderly by checking in on them, giving them rides, doing errands when they cannot get out.
We help the young children going through difficult times at home and in school.
We send monies to Apalachia to help educate, feed and clothe the families that have NOTHING. NO running water. No toilets. No electricity. No furniture. NOTHING...
We take care of our VietNam veterans who are homeless and in need of support and understanding.
We support our troops overseas in Afghanistan and Iraq by sending hundreds of boxes of goodies, snacks, cds, toiletries, magazines, etc to let them know we care, we thank them and we love them.
We sent over 25 boxes of school supplies to Iraq to help our troops rebuild the schools that Saddam destroyed.
All this is possible with organized religions. We are united in our committment to help others no matter who they are and what they believe in and where they live!
finti
resolved?, whatever have organised religion resolved
it is all possible for those who aint organised in a religion as well
debbiejo
If more money went to needy causes instead of church buildings and programs much more could be done in this world....That's what I do..
Organized Religions also suck money....
CorderaMitchell
Originally posted by debbiejo
If more money went to needy causes instead of church buildings and programs much more could be done in this world....That's what I do..
Organized Religions also suck money.... True, but no different than organized schools and such, they all need money.
And my school, please...
finti
whenever have faith needed money
debbiejo
Besides Jesus said visited those in prison, help the fatherless/motherless, help the needy, take care of the elderly, give to those that do not have....in other words have some compassion...people do this all the time...The problem with Organized religions is that much of the money has to go to employees, and overhead...IF it was done, like many do, on an individual level, there would be no need for all the expenses the church accumulates....Mainly it just takes your personal time to do these things....and you're personal money going right were it was needed.
xmarksthespot
I felt like bumping one of my old threads.
DigiMark007
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
~ Throughout human history the institutionalized religions have contributed far more to creating problems in the world than they have contributed to solving them. ~
To what extent do you agree or disagree with this statement?
And why?
Agree. Whole-heartedly. For all the good some do, it creates unecessary conflict and cultural tension (and killing) twice as much.
Joseph Campbell commented on this sad state of affairs by observing that for the peaceful individual, many have to turn to Eastern religions, where the principle doctrine is still "peace, love, understanding, and tolerance" because Western religion has become so polarized in its approach that it takes a truly diligent and caring person to see through the hatred and intolerance to get to the core of the loving ideals of the religion.
debbiejo
I still feel the same xmark........lol
The clergy's vested interest now dictates revisionn of traditional illusions to suite more modern thinking some say. Augstein says theologians now admit that "Christianity has been on the wrong track for sixteen hundred years, ever since Constantine, that it has had a wrong conceptionn of God all that time and is only now in a position to disclose its social mores...though no church has shown and progress or change. no reform...and why when it has worked so well in the past.
Lord Urizen
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Agree. Whole-heartedly. For all the good some do, it creates unecessary conflict and cultural tension (and killing) twice as much.
Joseph Campbell commented on this sad state of affairs by observing that for the peaceful individual, many have to turn to Eastern religions, where the principle doctrine is still "peace, love, understanding, and tolerance" because Western religion has become so polarized in its approach that it takes a truly diligent and caring person to see through the hatred and intolerance to get to the core of the loving ideals of the religion.
I agree 100%
Organized Religion has proven to be very dangerous....
ysh227
Trust me, if there is no christianity or any other religion, our country will be much peaceful.
We can still live on happily without attending churhces.
Japan is a huge nation with huge population that do not believe religion. They are living under high-quality lives. Japanese people have less hostility toward each other.
And I think that religion is causing more issues to our world.
Wanna know why there is still no cure for AIDS and Cancers? Because some researchers who are in charge of finding new medicaids for those decline to make progress faster; they think we need to die under any kind of disease, if possible, and they will try to find way not to make our technology advance.
FeceMan
Originally posted by ysh227
Trust me, if there is no christianity or any other religion, our country will be much peaceful.
We can still live on happily without attending churhces.
Japan is a huge nation with huge population that do not believe religion. They are living under high-quality lives. Japanese people have less hostility toward each other.
And I think that religion is causing more issues to our world.
Wanna know why there is still no cure for AIDS and Cancers? Because some researchers who are in charge of finding new medicaids for those decline to make progress faster; they think we need to die under any kind of disease, if possible, and they will try to find way not to make our technology advance.
Why not list some reasons why this is the wrong forum for this post?
Strangelove
Originally posted by ysh227
Wanna know why there is still no cure for AIDS and Cancers? Because some researchers who are in charge of finding new medicaids for those decline to make progress faster; they think we need to die under any kind of disease, if possible, and they will try to find way not to make our technology advance. Actually, it's because the church opposes contraception which would dramatically decrease STDs, but you're on the right track
ysh227
Originally posted by Strangelove
Actually, it's because the church opposes contraception which would dramatically decrease STDs, but you're on the right track
I don't understand you. Some religious people--even scientists--believe that cancer and AIDS are special gifts given by their god for punishment.
That's why they are reluctant to find new ways to get rid of those freaking virus.
Strangelove
Originally posted by ysh227
I don't understand you. Some religious people--even scientists--believe that cancer and AIDS are special gifts given by their god for punishment.
That's why they are reluctant to find new ways to get rid of those freaking virus. That's very very wrong. I'm sure some priests believe that, but I doubt it about scientists. And that's certainly not why the virus hasn't been gotten rid of. It's because it's a ridiculously difficult virus to kill.
ysh227
Well, do you agree that christian people favor kids more than they favor senior citizens?
JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
~ Throughout human history the institutionalized religions have contributed far more to creating problems in the world than they have contributed to solving them. ~
To what extent do you agree or disagree with this statement?
And why?
Evolution certainly hasn't solved your anger management issues. Jesus Christ could solve your anger problems.
lord xyz
Only one thing I can say to this thread.
Duh.
debbiejo
Religion DOES cause more problems than it can help. Though I feel many need it because they need something to hold on to like a blankie. It makes them feel secure especially in groups of like minded others. The problem is when someone out grows this need for security and is no longer like minded that they are persecuted.
Most large religions cause problems in:
Families
Relatives
Neighbors
Governments
Out reach programs
Judicial systems
Domestic relations
Schools
Alfheim
Religon isn't the problem itself, its how people use it. If religon was abolished people would find something else to oppress people.
lord xyz
Originally posted by Alfheim
Religon isn't the problem itself, its how people use it. If religon was abolished people would find something else to oppress people. I'll have to disagree with you. People didn't choose to opress religion, they see it as right, and they see people without the religion as wrong, seeing as people are taught to share, they feel the need to share their religions. Also, religions teach you to teach religion, and that's probably the problem. Not all do, but the mainstream ones, and the ones that have killed for thousands of years have.
Alfheim
Originally posted by lord xyz
I'll have to disagree with you. People didn't choose to opress religion, they see it as right, and they see people without the religion as wrong, seeing as people are taught to share, they feel the need to share their religions. Also, religions teach you to teach religion, and that's probably the problem. Not all do, but the mainstream ones, and the ones that have killed for thousands of years have.
I dunno man I can't be bothered to reply to that, I see what you're saying but apply a little bit of common sense.
lord xyz
Originally posted by Alfheim
I dunno man I can't be bothered to reply to that, I see what you're saying but apply a little bit of common sense. barker
Alfheim
Originally posted by lord xyz
barker
*shrug* Well WW2 wasn't about religon was it? The oppresion in China is not about religon either. People who decide to use religon to oppress people are just looking for an excuse, if religon is not there they will use something else.
Its common sense.
Alliance
Either that or religion provides a system for which they can come to power.
lord xyz
Originally posted by Alfheim
*shrug* Well WW2 wasn't about religon was it? The oppresion in China is not about religon either. People who decide to use religon to oppress people are just looking for an excuse, if religon is not there they will use something else.
Its common sense. Just because not all opressions are caused by religion, that doesn't necissarily mean not all religions cause opression.
Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Evolution certainly hasn't solved your anger management issues. Jesus Christ could solve your anger problems.
It sure has not helped with your anger management issues.
lord xyz
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It sure has not helped with your anger management issues. He's not angry, he's just an alcoholic, arrogant, ignorant racist.
Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lord xyz
He's not angry, he's just an alcoholic, arrogant, ignorant racist.
I think he's angry because his religion keeps him from ******* the girl next door.
jk
Alfheim
Originally posted by lord xyz
Just because not all opressions are caused by religion, that doesn't necissarily mean not all religions cause opression.
It looks like you're just arguing for the sake of it now.
Lord Urizen
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Evolution certainly hasn't solved your anger management issues. Jesus Christ could solve your anger problems.
You mean the way Jesus Christ solved Marcello's anger issues? Or Jerry Falwell's anger issues? Or Shirley Phelps-Roper's anger issues ?
Alliance
Evolution is not out and about to solve problems. That's not its purpose. Anyone with an inkling of scientific knowledge understands that.
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