Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

"14 August 2005

A Cypriot airliner carrying at least 121 people has crashed north of Athens after losing contact with air traffic control minutes before it went down.
Two Greek F-16 fighter jets were scrambled after the Helios Airlines jet, en route from Larnaca in Cyprus to Athens, lost contact with the control tower at Athens international airport.
One of the F-16 pilots reported that he could not see the captain in the cockpit, and his co-pilot appeared to be slumped in his seat, a Defence Ministry official told Reuters.
"I saw the plane coming. I knew it was serious or that it was some kind of VIP because I saw the two fighter jets," said witness Dimitris Karezas, who owns a summer camp in the area.
"Two, three minutes later I heard a big bang and ever since I've started looking for it, but I have not found anything yet," he told reporters.
The Greek Defence Ministry said the airplane had been carrying 115 passengers and had crashed in the Kalamos area, 30km north of Athens.
The official said police and military helicopters were at the scene, an uninhabited mountainous bushland area which is difficult to reach. Dozens of ambulances were also on their way.
AdvertisementAdvertisementMilitary helicopters spotted some debris and smoke but no movement on the ground.
The Greek Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis broke off his holiday on the Greek island of Tinos to head back to Athens.
Cypriot Transport Minister Haris Thrassou confirmed communications with the aircraft had been interrupted before the crash.
Helios, Cyprus' first private carrier, established in 1999, flies to Dublin, Sofia, Warsaw, Prague, Strasbourg and several British airports using a fleet of Boeing B737 aircraft."

I heard that the plane had a problem with it's air conditioning and so the temperature was under 60 degrees celcious. the pilots froze to death
and the plane didn't go down where it had to. somebody msged his cousin and said that the pilots were dead and he that he was freezing along with the other passengers. then he said goodbye. that is so tragic. people keep on searching for parts of the plane that crashed on a mountain.

I am from cyprus and I am sooo worried, I hope there wasn't anyone I know on the plane cry

OH, wow...that's horrible...I didn't realize you could freeze like that...But if there was a problem with the temp, why didn't they make an emergency landing somewhere?

because the pilots froze in 10 minutes and they didn't have time to land. also they lost contact with the base

Sounds very suspicious though...But I am truly sorry....horrible tragedy.

tv said that it wasn't suspicious. the plane was broken

As an explanation in of itself it's not good enough yet- you would fly lower before you froze out of consciousness.

We shall see what more time has to say about it.

Just sounds weird about the temp....I can't imagine people freezing to death in 10 mins....didn't realize that a plane could get that cold to do so, in such a short time period...but, I guess anythings possible.

no, the temperature at 34000 feet is minus 60!

Yes... hence me saying they would lose height before they froze that badly, rather than just stay there an let it happen.

We need to wait for a fuller explanation.

Originally posted by golden moon
no, the temperature at 34000 feet is minus 60!

OH...minus 60.....before you just said under 60.....That's what through me.

Originally posted by debbiejo
OH...minus 60.....before you just said under 60.....That's what through me.

oh my bad

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Yes... hence me saying they would lose height before they froze that badly, rather than just stay there an let it happen.

We need to wait for a fuller explanation.

ok I am watching tv now and waiting for more info

they said that they found 15 dead children

there were 48 children aboard! under the age of 10! they were going camping

121 people died!

very weird.
would they have time to fly low if the temperature dropped suddenly?
i mean, -60 is pretty damn extreem. could very well cause them to instantly lose conciousness i think.

Originally posted by PVS
very weird.
would they have time to fly low if the temperature dropped suddenly?
i mean, -60 is pretty damn extreem. could very well cause them to instantly lose conciousness i think.

Yeah -60 is crazy .....would be hard to breath too I believe.....

Err, if the heating fails it doesn't instantly become -60, does it? Temperature falls, it doesn;t just switch.

It seems odd.

I used to work for American Airlines and I remember that in the cargo bay where they keep pets and such it doesnt get that cold....cold yes, but not enough to hurt pets....As I remembered....the cargo area is not heated or anything like that...but I could be wrong.

yeah but that was known only by the pilots and the rest of the staff that died before the people.

Well, what could possibly cause an instant drop in temperature? As this is not a normal occurrence, even if that were so, that still simply confirms what I said earlier that we don't have enough info to know what really happened. In of itself, the rumour we have heard so far- that the problem was temperature loss- is not a full explanation because it raises other fundamental unknown questions, and it is always wise to sit back and await news before making definitive comment.

my comments aren't definitive...

I am just trying to guess...

but the most sure way as you said is to wait for new

I understand now the suspicion is a sudden drop in cabin pressure- that makes far more sense, though the cause is unclear; maybe a tiny fracture.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I understand now the suspicion is a sudden drop in cabin pressure- that makes far more sense, though the cause is unclear; maybe a tiny fracture.

Well i heard a specialist say, that it is very strange that the Pilots didn't drop, and that the usual procedure seems to not have been acted accordingly ......(forgive me for that sentence not making any grammatical sense)

Sorry to hear about that.

I remember a case in England when a plane had to make an emergency landing in weird circumstances. One of the glass panes of the cock-pit had been sucked off as it was climbing, and the pilot was almost sucked out.....until the co-pilot was holding on to him from his leg.

Most of the pilot's body was frozen as the other 2 pilots tried to re-gain control of the air-craft. Even that RAF pilots that were despatched on the scene could not believe their eyes when they saw a human body hanging from the cock-pit at that speed and altitude !

to cut a long story short, the plane managed to land without any casualties

This reminds me a lot of that part in "the day after tommorow" where the choppers all froze. There is no way it could happen THAT fast though.

That is sad all those people died though.

Originally posted by GCG
Sorry to hear about that.

I remember a case in England when a plane had to make an emergency landing in weird circumstances. One of the glass panes of the cock-pit had been sucked off as it was climbing, and the pilot was almost sucked out.....until the co-pilot was holding on to him from his leg.

Most of the pilot's body was frozen as the other 2 pilots tried to re-gain control of the air-craft. Even that RAF pilots that were despatched on the scene could not believe their eyes when they saw a human body hanging from the cock-pit at that speed and altitude !

to cut a long story short, the plane managed to land without any casualties

my bad; forgot to add the amazing part

The pilot who was hanging out, froze so quickly that
(a)his blood from the wounds didnt get a chance to lose itself.
(B) The body got perfectly preserved

this medics managed to revive him back on land.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well i heard a specialist say, that it is very strange that the Pilots didn't drop, and that the usual procedure seems to not have been acted accordingly ......(forgive me for that sentence not making any grammatical sense)

I think the primary question will be why they didn't lose altitude.

But at least a pressure drop is more credible than simple temperature loss.

I wanna hear the "black box" recordings.

Originally posted by KidRock
I wanna hear the "black box" recordings.

Yes, that should be interesting....

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I think the primary question will be why they didn't lose altitude.

But at least a pressure drop is more credible than simple temperature loss.

true, I guess we will know more later......although I heard of another incident when something siilar happened and the Plane just kept flying for 3 hours.....

Indeed, when they trace the main black box, we'll have far more useful info.

One rumour going around is that passengers were seen trying to control the plane before 'it fell out of the air'. I attach no particular credibility for that but some papers are apparently planning to report that tomorrow morning.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Indeed, when they trace the main black box, we'll have far more useful info.

One rumour going around is that passengers were seen trying to control the plane before 'it fell out of the air'. I attach no particular credibility for that but some papers are apparently planning to report that tomorrow morning.

Well I heard that the Jets sent after the plane couldn't see the Pilot at all and the co-pilot moveless and probably dead with the oxygenmask on......well we'll see what they say tomorrow

Ok, some info from the paper this morning.

"When they made contact, the pilots saw two people in the cockpit- we do not know if they were crew members or passengers- appearing to want to take over the controls."

Oxygen masks were activated in the cabin.

One report says a victim reported shortly before ther crash that the pilot was 'blue', whilst another report says the pilot was reported as dead.

Decompression leading to a cabin pressure drop is still the most likely suspect but the cause is a mystery- there is no sign of a sudden decompression, such as might be caused by a fracture in the hull or a broken window, and all the fuss that might come with that.

But a creeping decompression- such as caused by a faulty seal- would be even stranger, because no-one has any idea why nothing would have been done about it- for that matter, pilots drill against sudden decompression as well, but that would have been more panicked.

A Cypriot spokesperson has suggested that the aircraft had had decompression problems before. This has been immediately denied by Helios, the operator, who say it was serviced just last week; it is possible the Cypriot (in fact their transport minister) was referring to the make of aircraft, as a Helios plane had to make an emergency landing last year due to a decompression problem, but it is hardly as if the 737 is known for this fault.

I suspect other contributing causes- like bad air or food poisoning- won't yet be ruled out.

It's all over the news.

It's terrible.

enough with the bloody conspiracy theories already

the plane suffered from loss of cabin pressure....at 36,000 feet the lack of oxygen is so severe it causes people to black out. the death zone in which no human can acclimatize is 8000 metres which is 26,272 feet

rapid decpmpression means the body is affected by a process known as hypoxia in which conciousness is lost in a matter of seconds and expansion of the air results in a huge temperature loss resulting in severe frost bite

given that the cypriot plane was on auto pilot and flew for 2 hours after depressurization it would mean the bodies were frozen solid

the reason the jets were with it were simply standard proceedure post sept 11th...any plane that loses contact has jets scrambled to intercept

so no...before anyone says it....i doubt it was bush's fault

Sorry, who was engaging in conspiracy theory?

anyone and everyone who says things like..."sounds suspicious" and "the pilots could have dropped altitude"...obviously they couldn't

Originally posted by jaden101
anyone and everyone who says things like..."sounds suspicious" and "the pilots could have dropped altitude"...obviously they couldn't

Well so just wondering is conspiracy theorizing already...sorry, dont agree....

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well so just wondering is conspiracy theorizing already...sorry, dont agree....

understandable...just stopping the rot before it begins...because pretty much everything that happens in the world has some sort of conspiracy behind it...such is the way of the KMC discussions

Hmmm, sounds suspicious.... this thread is a conspiracy!
gossip

Originally posted by obiwills
Hmmm, sounds suspicious.... this thread is a conspiracy!
gossip

that smilie is highly innapropriate ; its as if they are enjoying the plane crashing

Originally posted by GCG
that smilie is highly innapropriate ; its as if they are enjoying the plane crashing

Conspiracists enjoy tragedies.........wrong case

Originally posted by jaden101
anyone and everyone who says things like..."sounds suspicious" and "the pilots could have dropped altitude"...obviously they couldn't

That is totally ridiciulous. The fact that if there was gradual decompression the pilots would have simply lost altitude is not conspiracy, it is FACT. It is in fact a question about the incident that the investigators themselves are asking (if indeed the answer is gradual decompression; sudden decompression asks just as many questions, but different ones).

I was merely highlighthing that the full facts of the case have not yet become apparent because the investigators have only just started and the full facts are not in yet- the investigators themselves have lots of gaps in what they yet know. That is a million miles from conspiracy theory. How silly.

Latest news, I see, is that the offices of Helios Airways have been raided- I guess that makes dodgy maintenance a high suspect now.

well lets see...if it was a gradual decompression they could have indeed descended...but seeing as they didnt then it can be pretty easily construed that it was either a) rapid decompression resulting in paralyis, convulsion and unconciousness...or b)a gradual decompression in which the pilots decided it would be a good idea to let themselves and all the passengers die a long and painful death

given that a hole 5ft( say a door coming off) in diameter can completely decompress a plane in a fraction of second...shows you how quickly it can affect people

i think that given that the police have raided the offices of the airline that operated the planes...i think that some serious criminal negligence might be involved...most likely to do with safety operations

but you're right...we need to wait and see how the investigations go before people can claim it was a white wash cover up conspiracy remote controlled plane or whatever other jibberish they wish to talk about

Like I said in my post above- sudden decompression simply asks just as many questions; it does not square with the report of passengers (?) trying to regain control of the plane.

Which may be an inaccurate report. Just about ALL of it might be inaccurate. No-one is sure yet.

Did everyone on the plane die?

It's almost impossible to believe otherwise.

It seems the number of children on board was overstated at first though (not that I like this idea that children dying is worse than adults dying).

It Does provoke a stronger emotional responce...

There are now strictly unconfirmed reports that the original pilot of the plane had refused to fly, and stories coming out of earlier maintenance problems on Helios flights.

Several experts, it is reported, are looking at the possibility of carbon monoxide poisoning incapacitating the pilots first (the 'bad air' option I referred to earlier), but still no confirmations yet.

It also seems that one report of a message sent by a victim of the crash talking of thr freezing conditions in the cabin was a hoax; the man responsible has been arrested and charged. Not that there is much doubt that it was damn cold up there, due to the frozen condition of some of the bodies.

As suspicion is pointing more and more towards the air conditioning, the sudden decompression option looks less likely in favour of gradual with, as I say, bad air been the main current theory as to why nothing was done about that.

Which even if it is not so, I hope you note how things are rarely as simple as you might think, Jaden, and so such speculation is hardly the stuff of conspiracy theory.

A Colombian airline just crashed in Venezuela with 152 people on board.

Link

OH great...another one....I love to fly and will be this winter...

quite the opposite...things are almost always as simple as they seem...good ol occums razor or principle of parsimony determines this

besides...you could see the plughole of where this debate was heading quite easily when correlation were being drawn between military jets being present and an airliner going down...

and given the previous form of people on the london bombings discussions...conspiracy theorists are far too abundant on this forum

its funny cos theres been like 3 plane crashes all in a relatively short space of time....

Originally posted by jaden101
quite the opposite...things are almost always as simple as they seem...good ol occums razor or principle of parsimony determines this


ONLY once all the facts were in. In fact, you are applying the razor incorrectly. The simplest explanation as to why there was an inconsistency about the pilots not losing altitude was NOT that it must have been sudden decompression, as you suggested, but that there was something unknown as yet about the incident.

You took people saying that we don't have all the info yet, so avoid making conclusions, and took it to be conspiracy theory- odd.

We now have confirmation from the F16 video footage of flight crew (one of whom was a pilot, apparently) entering the cockpit and trying to regain control, which buries any idea of sudden decompression killing everyone.

The situation is now one of gradual decompression, but the cause for the incapacitation of the pliots, which prevented them from losing altitude, is still unknown; it also seems possible now that the black box was damaged in the crash-- they have so far only found the cover (contrary to some previous reports) and it does not look healthy.

i read the article on this in USA today. they say that two charred bodies were found hugging each other. man, thats just terrible. they knew they were gonna die so they just held each other until the end. stuff like this, when so many people are wiped out in the blink of an eye, kinda makes you look around and appreciate what you have, even if it aint much. my heart and prayers go out to the family of the victims.

i present facts of decompression and its effects on the body as opposed to ill informed "they could have done something" comments

yes nobody knows all the facts...so where does the "sounds very suspicious" aspect come into it.

even the effects of a slower gradual decompression has terrible effects on the body...its essentially the same thing that divers are effected by...the bends...when pressure in the body is higher than that of its surrounding and hence air forces its way out the body

symptoms...pain in the joints, confusion, memory loss, headaches, tunnel vision, extreme fatigue, behavioural changes, abdominal and chest pains, incontinance, muscle weakness and twitching, all over itching and pitting edema (small scars all over body)

and the same plane has already been reported as having compression problems

i cant believe this. these people are all DEAD and you guys are arguing over trivial shit. unbelievable.

what?...trivial shit?....as in like what happened...and i dont think we are arguing either cause there is no flaming going on....