Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

They're a mile from each other. They both know they're in a fight as soon as the light turns from red to green. They're both waiting for the light to turn green. Neither knows when the light will....


THE LIGHT TURNS GREEN!


What happens?

the $64,000,000.00 is:

is flash faster than the speed of thought?

Yes. And then some.

Xavier loses badly.

A fairer fight would be if Xavier is hundred miles below the Earth's surface in the South Pole and Flash is at the North Pole.

No technically he isn't, but if he moved he could attack him, but he and xavier are aware of each others prescence.
Flash can move faster than you can react, but he can't THINK faster.

Kid flash, on the other hand, can read and everything superspeed.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
No technically he isn't, but if he moved he could attack him, but he and xavier are aware of each others prescence.
Flash can move faster than you can react, but he can't THINK faster.

Kid flash, on the other hand, can read and everything superspeed.

You're joking right? Of course Flash can THINK faster. If he couldn't he would be slamming into cars, trucks and people.

That's a ludicrous statement. The Flash once outhought a 85,731 AD computer.

Flash can think, move and react at lightspeed.

Originally posted by Draco69
You're joking right? Of course Flash can THINK faster. If he couldn't he would be slamming into cars, trucks and people.

That's a ludicrous statement. The Flash once outhought a 85,731 AD computer.

Flash can think, move and react at lightspeed.
True that.
Flash is way too fast for this.

Originally posted by Draco69
You're joking right? Of course Flash can THINK faster. If he couldn't he would be slamming into cars, trucks and people.

That's a ludicrous statement. The Flash once outhought a 85,731 AD computer.

Flash can think, move and react at lightspeed.

Well it wasn't the exact point of that, he can think and REACT within superspeed.

I feel that flash wins, but my point was can he spark his initial thought faster.

I know he thinks faster within his own speed.

Kid flash, furthermore can read at superspeed etc.

I think demigawds point was can he REACT faster than xavier than the starting bell.

His mind IS his weapon (xavier).

So if he knew that flash was there before the starting bell, (or light), could he neutralize the flash?

but xavier is really at an advantage here. because before the light turns green, he can search the area for anybody waiting for the light to turn green and preparing for a fight. therefore he will react faster than the flash cuz hes more prepared.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell

So if he knew that flash was there before the starting bell, (or light), could he neutralize the flash?

Reactions? You HONESTLY think that Xavier's human reactions are FASTER than the Flash's?

Thats the inital question, I don't think its whether flash can clock a normal person, I know he thinks fast.

We've had this discussion before, if they both trigger initial thought, and xavier nails him before the light...

His mind IS his weapon.

Originally posted by Draco69
Reactions? You HONESTLY think that Xavier's human reactions are FASTER than the Flash's?

Nono, I think flash wins.

They are AWARE of one another though, they both have the speed of thought, flash is faster, sure, but if he just shuts down his mind...

Originally posted by Pointinel
but xavier is really at an advantage here. because before the light turns green, he can search the area for anybody waiting for the light to turn green and preparing for a fight. therefore he will react faster than the flash cuz hes more prepared.

Hardly. Sure he can pinpoint Flash's mind before the start of the battle...but as soon as the light turns green the mind is already gone and Xavier's unconscious.

Sure Xavier can LOCATE the Flash BEFORE the battle. But as soon as the light turns green Flash's mind is operating at a level way beyond Xavier's ability and is not at the location he was.

two words.

PSYCHIC LOCK.

Originally posted by Draco69
Hardly. Sure he can pinpoint Flash's mind before the start of the battle...but as soon as the light turns green the mind is already gone and Xavier's unconscious.

Sure Xavier can LOCATE the Flash BEFORE the battle. But as soon as the light turns green Flash's mind is operating at a level way beyond Xavier's ability and is not at the location he was.

I see what you are saying, flash operates faster than the speed of thought, even when he isnt' moving.


Then why can't he read and remember at this speed, like kid flash?

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell

They are AWARE of one another though, they both have the speed of thought, flash is faster, sure, but if he just shuts down his mind...

The problem is that Flash's thoughts are lightspeed. Xavier cannot actively shutdown his mind in such a timespan

And I agree that the Flash would push his wheelchair to the Lincoln Memorial and watch him fall down the steps.

Originally posted by Draco69
The problem is that Flash's thoughts are lightspeed. Xavier cannot actively shutdown his mind in such a timespan

And I agree that the Flash would push his wheelchair to the Lincoln Memorial and watch him fall down the steps.

Thats just dirty...

Originally posted by Pointinel
two words.

PSYCHIC LOCK.

Four words:

REPEATED

FALLS

DOWN

STAIRS

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
Thats just dirty...

Nah.....ok yeah it yes.

Originally posted by Draco69
Four words:

REPEATED

FALLS

DOWN

STAIRS

Originally posted by Draco69
Four words:

REPEATED

FALLS

DOWN

STAIRS

lol! ok but prof x would def make flash pick him up and say sorry.

Interesting responses. But if Flash is SOOO fast and has such great reaction time, why did he get tagged by Deathstroke? And guys throwing boomerangs and with freeze guns?

I don't believe that Flash has lightspeed reaction times. He gets ambushed and hit too often. I believe that once he gets going everything speeds up too, but he gets hit too often by non-speedsters for me to buy that he'd react to the green light and be atop Xavier before Xavier has a chance to register that the light is green.

I say Xavier wins. For Flash, thought and action may be closer together than the average person, but for Xavier, thought and action are one.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
No technically he isn't, but if he moved he could attack him, but he and xavier are aware of each others prescence.
Flash can move faster than you can react, but he can't THINK faster.

Kid flash, on the other hand, can read and everything superspeed.
Originally posted by Pointinel
but xavier is really at an advantage here. because before the light turns green, he can search the area for anybody waiting for the light to turn green and preparing for a fight. therefore he will react faster than the flash cuz hes more prepared.
Probably the feedback of connecting with a mind which brain process informations and react at speeds far above those of Xavier will knock him unconscious.
Flash can perform feats like find a secret code needed to access to a martian computer in seconds through trying thousands codes at superspeed.
The guy is outta Xavier's league

Originally posted by K3VIL
Probably the feedback of connecting with a mind which brain process informations and react at speeds far above those of Xavier will knock him unconscious.
Flash can perform feats like find a secret code needed to access to a martian computer in seconds through trying thousands codes at superspeed.
The guy is outta Xavier's league

Yea, he can't remember thigs at a certain speed, but he can act and react at superspeed.

I still feel wally wins anyway.

Originally posted by demigawd
Interesting responses. But if Flash is SOOO fast and has such great reaction time, why did he get tagged by Deathstroke?

The same reason Wolverine has tagged the likes of Thanos and Magento.

Crap writing and PIS.

Originally posted by demigawd
And guys throwing boomerangs and with freeze guns?

Again PIS. Higher Flash showings show that Flash villains shouldn't last more than a picosecond. But they do. Writers have recently tried to curve this by introducing Zoom and an amped version of Weather Wizard.

Originally posted by demigawd
I don't believe that Flash has lightspeed reaction times. He gets ambushed and hit too often. I believe that once he gets going everything speeds up too, but he gets hit too often by non-speedsters for me to buy that he'd react to the green light and be atop Xavier before Xavier has a chance to register that the light is green.

Silver Surfer and Thanos also get hit by non-speedsters. Yet we acknowledge their speed.

Originally posted by demigawd
I say Xavier wins. For Flash, thought and action may be closer together than the average person, but for Xavier, thought and action are one.

Come on, demigawd. You're a smart guy. You HONESTLY believe that a guy who can run at near-lightspeeds doesn't have near-lightspeed reactions and thoughts. If he didn't he would have been splattered against a brick wall by now. Common sense.

Xavier's thought and action may be one and Wally's may be seperate but the sad truth is: IT DOESN'T MATTER. Wally's reactions and thoughts all take less than picosecond.

For god's sake Wally once had to dodge anti-matter light rays in a compressed room AND figure a way out using a handheld computer.

Please.

Originally posted by demigawd
Interesting responses. But if Flash is SOOO fast and has such great reaction time, why did he get tagged by Deathstroke? And guys throwing boomerangs and with freeze guns?

I don't believe that Flash has lightspeed reaction times. He gets ambushed and hit too often. I believe that once he gets going everything speeds up too, but he gets hit too often by non-speedsters for me to buy that he'd react to the green light and be atop Xavier before Xavier has a chance to register that the light is green.

I say Xavier wins. For Flash, thought and action may be closer together than the average person, but for Xavier, thought and action are one.

now, thats not fair, you know they do that to keep the books interesting.

Thats like saying "why don't flash books last three panels'

Top it off with guys like batman dodging everything, because he CANT survive it, is the same reason why flash gets hit so much, its because he CAN.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
Yea, he can't remember thigs at a certain speed, but he can act and react at superspeed.

I still feel wally wins anyway.

Actually he can't remember things he has studied or learned at lightspeed. He retains the knowledge for about a few mins. but it fades away.

His protege has this ability however.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
now, thats not fair, you know they do that to keep the books interesting.

Thats like saying "why don't flash books last three panels'

Top it off with guys like batman dodging everything, because he CANT survive it, is the same reason why flash gets hit so much, its because he CAN.

Or why doesn't Magneto actually use his powers more effectively than controling metal?

Simple. PIS. It keeps things interesting....and completely illogical.

Originally posted by Draco69
Actually he can't remember things he has studied or learned at lightspeed. He retains the knowledge for about a few mins. but it fades away.

His protege has this ability however.
Yes, thats what I'm saying, kid flash can do that, like when he read the entire library, he can do what the other flashes cannot.

"Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics. Examples of PIS include Flash stories lasting longer than three panels, or Toy Man as a threat to Superman."

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
Yes, thats what I'm saying, kid flash can do that, like when he read the entire library, he can do what the other flashes cannot.

Yes he remembers EVERYTHING he reads. Wally doesn't have that ability.

Bart may very well become the next Reed Richards.

Reed Richards but faster... Though less stretchy.

And as to the pushing down stairs: Yes. Go Wally.

Originally posted by Dizzle
Reed Richards but faster... Though less stretchy.

And as to the pushing down stairs: Yes. Go Wally.

Reed flash, is a scary thought, he'd be better than robin then in that sense.

God thats disturbing.

I like when he picked apart Deathstroke/Jericho's gun, while he was going to shoot robin with it.

That's the thing - if there are just as many instances (actually more) of Flash getting hit by non-speedsters than him evading everything, then I'm more inclined to believe that this "super reaction time" is PIS than anything. I'm not disputing his speed, but I think his reaction time is off.

As for why he doesn't bump into things - doesn't the speedforce prevent that from happening? If you're moving at light, you become energy and you pass through other objects.

I remember a post where he lent his speed to the JLA. It was less that they felt they were doing everything super fast and more that everything else was moving so slow. But in order to be that fast, Flash has to accelerate into the speed force.

He can't do that in the time it takes for Xavier to make a single thought.

So no, I don't believe that Flash could react and take out Xavier before Xavier can react and take out Flash. I think they both initially think at the same speed. Is there proof to the contrary? Evidence where Flash hasn't just RUN at superspeed, but reacted at superspeed? Like, he gets hit with a bullet, but senses it trying to enter his flesh and he moves away from it before it actually enters. Or cases where Flash actually takes action before anyone else can think?

Originally posted by demigawd
That's the thing - if there are just as many instances (actually more) of Flash getting hit by non-speedsters than him evading everything, then I'm more inclined to believe that this "super reaction time" is PIS than anything. I'm not disputing his speed, but I think his reaction time is off.

As for why he doesn't bump into things - doesn't the speedforce prevent that from happening? If you're moving at light, you become energy and you pass through other objects.

I remember a post where he lent his speed to the JLA. It was less that they felt they were doing everything super fast and more that everything else was moving so slow. But in order to be that fast, Flash has to accelerate into the speed force.

He can't do that in the time it takes for Xavier to make a single thought.

So no, I don't believe that Flash could react and take out Xavier before Xavier can react and take out Flash. I think they both initially think at the same speed. Is there proof to the contrary? Evidence where Flash hasn't just RUN at superspeed, but reacted at superspeed? Like, he gets hit with a bullet, but senses it trying to enter his flesh and he moves away from it before it actually enters. Or cases where Flash actually takes action before anyone else can think?

this is going to be a nice infinite loop argument,lol.

Originally posted by demigawd
That's the thing - if there are just as many instances (actually more) of Flash getting hit by non-speedsters than him evading everything, then I'm more inclined to believe that this "super reaction time" is PIS than anything. I'm not disputing his speed, but I think his reaction time is off.

As for why he doesn't bump into things - doesn't the speedforce prevent that from happening? If you're moving at light, you become energy and you pass through other objects.

I remember a post where he lent his speed to the JLA. It was less that they felt they were doing everything super fast and more that everything else was moving so slow. But in order to be that fast, Flash has to accelerate into the speed force.

He can't do that in the time it takes for Xavier to make a single thought.

So no, I don't believe that Flash could react and take out Xavier before Xavier can react and take out Flash. I think they both initially think at the same speed. Is there proof to the contrary? Evidence where Flash hasn't just RUN at superspeed, but reacted at superspeed? Like, he gets hit with a bullet, but senses it trying to enter his flesh and he moves away from it before it actually enters. Or cases where Flash actually takes action before anyone else can think?
It's called PIS or plot needed situations.
Imagine every Flash apperance lasting 3panels, turn on the brain guy.
Flash is always connected to the speed force, he can just enter into it if he wants, reaching lightspeed, or tap into his energy to perform various feats.
You want examples of Flash reacting fast?
He evacuated a city saving it from a nuclear strike after the detonation before the radiations or the shockwave could even kill someone.

Originally posted by K3VIL
It's called PIS or plot needed situations.
Imagine every Flash apperance lasting 3panels, turn on the brain guy.
Flash is always connected to the speed force, he can just enter into it if he wants, reaching lightspeed, or tap into his energy to perform various feats.
You want examples of Flash reacting fast?
He evacuated a city saving it from a nuclear strike after the detonation before the radiations or the shockwave could even kill someone.

Didn't he do that in less than one second?
Yea, flash is cheesy to use in debates, but he is powerful nonetheless.

Originally posted by demigawd
That's the thing - if there are just as many instances (actually more) of Flash getting hit by non-speedsters than him evading everything, then I'm more inclined to believe that this "super reaction time" is PIS than anything. I'm not disputing his speed, but I think his reaction time is off.

To have Flash evade everything in comics would be highly boring to read. Hed also be the no.1 hero of all time.

Originally posted by demigawd
As for why he doesn't bump into things - doesn't the speedforce prevent that from happening? If you're moving at light, you become energy and you pass through other objects.

Flash is able to pass through everything without even running. He doesnt bump into things because hes used to his powers. He can tap the speed force at will but its not what stops him from running into things.

Originally posted by demigawd
I remember a post where he lent his speed to the JLA. It was less that they felt they were doing everything super fast and more that everything else was moving so slow. But in order to be that fast, Flash has to accelerate into the speed force.

I dont get what youre saying here. In order to be how fast must accelerate into the speedforce?

Originally posted by demigawd
So no, I don't believe that Flash could react and take out Xavier before Xavier can react and take out Flash. I think they both initially think at the same speed. Is there proof to the contrary? Evidence where Flash hasn't just RUN at superspeed, but reacted at superspeed? Like, he gets hit with a bullet, but senses it trying to enter his flesh and he moves away from it before it actually enters. Or cases where Flash actually takes action before anyone else can think?

There was a time where a nuclear explosion went off on a island. The explosion already happened, and Flash evacuated the whole island before anyone even realized a blast had went off.

Also in another instance, Flash save all the main heroes from bombs all set to go off a the same time. Timers were already on 0:00, manged to hack a computer to operate scroll at near lightspeeds to find the source of transmission.

Hes faster than thought by far.

Originally posted by K3VIL
It's called PIS or plot needed situations.


Plot Induced Stupidity, yes.



As I understand it, he has to RUN into the speedforce. He doesn't automatically go at lightspeed. It actually takes him a few seconds to get there. By then, he'll be a vegetable.



Yes, I know. I used that example with arguing that Flash against Runner. But it doesn't work in your case. That's a case of Flash knowing that was going to happen and moving at FTL speeds to clear everybody. It doesn't show initial brain registration time. What's an example of initial brain registration time? Because Flashes only hope against Xavier is to prove that he can register a thought faster than anybody else. We all know and accept how fast he can move once he DECIDES to move. But can he DECIDE to move faster than anybody else? I want proof of that.

Does what I'm asking make sense?

Originally posted by jrodslam
I dont get what youre saying here. In order to be how fast must accelerate into the speedforce?


There was a debate awhile ago where it was revealed that Flash has to accelerate at a certain speed in order to access the speedforce. He can't just *poof* and do it. I think it was kgkg who mentioned this. True or no?



Again, these are examples of him taking action at superspeeds. But what examples exist of him deciding to do something before anybody else? In the former example, Flash knew about the bomb, and at the time it started going off he took action. It's not really the same thing.

Wally has read at Flash-speed too. They all think hella-fast. Xavier's dead before his mind processes that the light is green.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Wally has read at Flash-speed too. They all think hella-fast. Xavier's dead before his mind processes that the light is green.

Yes, we know he can think fast, and react fast while he is moving, (even though he cannot remember what he read at "flash speed".

Demi is asking if he can make his inital thought FASTER than Xavier, with them both knowing the others prescence.

Oh, ok. I'd say yes, and still give the win to Flash, but that's me. Speed force specifics are worse than trying to hammer out specifics on magic characters.

Originally posted by demigawd
As I understand it, he has to RUN into the speedforce. He doesn't automatically go at lightspeed. It actually takes him a few seconds to get there. By then, he'll be a vegetable.

First off he doest even have to go lightspeed to beat Prof X. The human thought isnt faster than lifghtspeed. Not even near it. As soon as the light turns green, time is stopped for Wally and Xavier is ko.d. Or rolling down steps.

Originally posted by demigawd
Yes, I know. I used that example with arguing that Flash against Runner. But it doesn't work in your case. That's a case of Flash knowing that was going to happen and moving at FTL speeds to clear everybody. It doesn't show initial brain registration time. What's an example of initial brain registration time? Because Flashes only hope against Xavier is to prove that he can register a thought faster than anybody else. We all know and accept how fast he can move once he DECIDES to move. But can he DECIDE to move faster than anybody else? I want proof of that.

Does what I'm asking make sense?

Read my last post on that. He read hacked a computer at lear light speeds. Thats faster than any normal human thought.

Originally posted by demigawd
There was a debate awhile ago where it was revealed that Flash has to accelerate at a certain speed in order to access the speedforce. He can't just *poof* and do it. I think it was kgkg who mentioned this. True or no?

True. But he doesnt need to go lightspeed to beat Prof. Porf.X would be mid thought if that at time of green light. His eyes are still sending the signal to his brain.

Speedforce is kinda tricky. When running it takes him about a second to go lightspeed via speed force.

To do other things by tapping into the speed force, it takes him nothing. He doesnt even have to move to do so.

Yea. Flash wins this fight. His superior speed all around is too much for Xavier's thought speed.

But what is this based on? It seems Flash's powers are always based upon momentum. That's the only explanation for him being able to program computers at lightspeed but still get ambushed by explosions and knifed by something with Captain America-level reflexes.

What do I mean by that? ok, let's say Flash was circling the earth over and over again when the 3-2-1 hit. Then I'd say that Flash takes out Xavier no question. But it seems that when Flash is in a still state, or in the very beginning of a run that his reaction time is comparatively slow. That's how he gets ambushed and attacked by flying Boomerangs and guys with swords in the first place.

Now, I know your answer is going to be, "PIS" - but let's think about this. I think PIS is too readily used to dismiss things people don't like about characters. I don't believe that PIS should be a subjective thing, though that's how it's being used on this board. PIS, to me, should be strictly and ob jectively defined as, "Actions that take place that are contrary to established and consistent aspects of a character's powers, actions or abilities". Superman getting KO'ed by Venom is PIS because he consistently withstands 100s of times more powerful attacks. Flash getting KO'ed by a guy throwing a boomerang is not, because there's actually no majority precedent saying that it shouldn't happen.

You've named a couple of debatable instances where Flash has reacted at FTL speeds. But there are FAR MORE instances where Flash is caught off-guard when he's at a standing or beginning running state. That says to me that Flash has *human* level initial thought time, but as he accelerates, so too do his reflexes and reaction times. If we're going to declare that the hundreds of instances where he's tagged by non FTL characters are PIS, it would have to be outweighed by thousands of instances where he's been unable to be ambushed. That doesn't exist.

So by strict math, in reality, if we're looking at PIS objectively, then if anything, we'd actually have to throw out his FTL *initial* reaction times rahter than his failure to *initially* reacted at FTL speeds. Because, sad as it is to admit, Deathstroke isn't the only time Flash was punked by a non-speedster.

So going by strict definition, at 3-2-1 go, with Flash starting from a stopped state and Xavier a mile away, they should both process the GO at around the same time, and they should both identify the target at the same time. But Xavier can both identify the target AND take action against the target simultaneously because thought and action are identical to a telepath. Flash still has the burden of identifying the target and then actually running to the target and punching the target. Given Flash's *actual* history and the *majority* of his showings, that's not going to happen before Xavier gets out his single thought.

Does that make sense?

I'm headed to the airport and leaving Paris now. I'll write more when I'm in Amsterdam.

Heh...the KMC rules have a "speed" for thought, and even if Flash starts slower, the speed it gives for thought is ridiculously slower than Flash.

It would take more than one thought too, wouldn't it? He'd have to concentrate to keep Flash down. A split-second of thought isn't going to be enough to put Flash down, and then it'll be hard to keep concentrating with 1000 punches flying in at you.

If they know of each others, presence then Xavier is going to have his powers ready, i THINK he MIGHT be able to jump the gun and get Flash, but hey, im just trying to be arguemenative.lol

OP - "They're a mile from each other. They both know they're in a fight as soon as the light turns from red to green. They're both waiting for the light to turn green. Neither knows when the light will...."

As soon as Flash moves everything is stopped to him. Time, you may as well say. Prof. X cant think while everythig else is stopped. Only a mile away from each other? Flash gets there in a nanosecond. Really. Maybe even faster.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Heh...the KMC rules have a "speed" for thought, and even if Flash starts slower, the speed it gives for thought is ridiculously slower than Flash.

It would take more than one thought too, wouldn't it? He'd have to concentrate to keep Flash down. A split-second of thought isn't going to be enough to put Flash down, and then it'll be hard to keep concentrating with 1000 punches flying in at you.

What KMC rules? There's a speed for thought??? wtf? Where is this?

And since when did you become a moderator?

Xavier only struggles sometimes when he's trying to delicately influence or control someone's mind. When he's doing a straight out mind blast...your ass is going down in one shot.

Originally posted by jrodslam
OP - "They're a mile from each other. They both know they're in a fight as soon as the light turns from red to green. They're both waiting for the light to turn green. Neither knows when the light will...."

As soon as Flash moves everything is stopped to him. Time, you may as well say. Prof. X cant think while everythig else is stopped. Only a mile away from each other? Flash gets there in a nanosecond. Really. Maybe even faster.

That's understandable....but my point isn't how fast can he move, or how slow is everything else, but what evidence is there that the decision process - the initial registration of an action, the command to "do something" is faster for Flash than for anybody else. All evidence in his half century of history goes against that. It seems to suggest that only as Flash goes faster do his other processes speed up along with it. So Flash running in place vs. Xavier would have a totally different outcome than Flash standing vs. Xavier.

Flash appears to have regular human inital thought. So, rather than a foot race, if Flash were to play, say, that hand slapping game with Xavier, I firmly believe Xavier could slap Flash pretty often. Or Jeopardy. Or anything else that is solely about brain processing time.

Originally posted by demigawd
But what is this based on? It seems Flash's powers are always based upon momentum. That's the only explanation for him being able to program computers at lightspeed but still get ambushed by explosions and knifed by something with Captain America-level reflexes.

What do I mean by that? ok, let's say Flash was circling the earth over and over again when the 3-2-1 hit. Then I'd say that Flash takes out Xavier no question. But it seems that when Flash is in a still state, or in the very beginning of a run that his reaction time is comparatively slow. That's how he gets ambushed and attacked by flying Boomerangs and guys with swords in the first place.

Now, I know your answer is going to be, "PIS" - but let's think about this. I think PIS is too readily used to dismiss things people don't like about characters. I don't believe that PIS should be a subjective thing, though that's how it's being used on this board. PIS, to me, should be strictly and ob jectively defined as, "Actions that take place that are contrary to established and consistent aspects of a character's powers, actions or abilities". Superman getting KO'ed by Venom is PIS because he consistently withstands 100s of times more powerful attacks. Flash getting KO'ed by a guy throwing a boomerang is not, because there's actually no majority precedent saying that it shouldn't happen.

You've named a couple of debatable instances where Flash has reacted at FTL speeds. But there are FAR MORE instances where Flash is caught off-guard when he's at a standing or beginning running state. That says to me that Flash has *human* level initial thought time, but as he accelerates, so too do his reflexes and reaction times. If we're going to declare that the hundreds of instances where he's tagged by non FTL characters are PIS, it would have to be outweighed by thousands of instances where he's been unable to be ambushed. That doesn't exist.

So by strict math, in reality, if we're looking at PIS objectively, then if anything, we'd actually have to throw out his FTL *initial* reaction times rahter than his failure to *initially* reacted at FTL speeds. Because, sad as it is to admit, Deathstroke isn't the only time Flash was punked by a non-speedster.

So going by strict definition, at 3-2-1 go, with Flash starting from a stopped state and Xavier a mile away, they should both process the GO at around the same time, and they should both identify the target at the same time. But Xavier can both identify the target AND take action against the target simultaneously because thought and action are identical to a telepath. Flash still has the burden of identifying the target and then actually running to the target and punching the target. Given Flash's *actual* history and the *majority* of his showings, that's not going to happen before Xavier gets out his single thought.

Does that make sense?

I'm headed to the airport and leaving Paris now. I'll write more when I'm in Amsterdam.

The main reason why flash gets "ambushed by explosions and knifed by something with Captain America-level reflexes " because the comic demands it

Here I just bought 50 flash comic books and hey flash never gets hit. Boring Zzzzzzzzzz

It’s a comic book, its fact that any speeder gets tagged, but they have shown speed at times which makes it a contradiction.

And you are right about flash needing to accelerate to reach higher speed, he did that when he battle Grod.

He had to run far away to build momentum. Tho I heard he is one with the speed force now.

Originally posted by kgkg
The main reason why flash gets "ambushed by explosions and knifed by something with Captain America-level reflexes " because the comic demands it

Here I just bought 50 flash comic books and hey flash never gets hit. Boring Zzzzzzzzzz

It’s a comic book, its fact that any speeder gets tagged, but they have shown speed at times which makes it a contradiction.

And you are right about flash needing to accelerate to reach higher speed, he did that when he battle Grod.

He had to run far away to build momentum. Tho I heard he is one with the speed force now.

That's nice, but that doesn't mean you can just dismiss it. We don't get to pick and choose portrayals we like. So the whole, "the comic demands it" explanation isn't valid. PIS, like I said in an earlier post, should only apply where there's a portrayal or an action that is clearly contradictory to the VAST majority of what the character does. Kazar breaking Thanos' bearhug is an example of PIS. Kazar is a peak human who spends his time struggling against lions and raptors, and Thanos is well beyond CL100 (which is why the whole thing was retconned). Flash getting hit from behind by boomerangs is not PIS, because it's happened over 100 times by dozens of writers.

So to say that Flash would take out Xavier before Xavier finished his thought is false because 50 years of evidence shows that Flash, while he can move fast, doesn't necessarily react that fast. Whether Flash's reaction times are slowed for reader entertainment purposes or not is irrelevant. It's established.

Originally posted by demigawd
That's nice, but that doesn't mean you can just dismiss it. We don't get to pick and choose portrayals we like. So the whole, "the comic demands it" explanation isn't valid. PIS, like I said in an earlier post, should only apply where there's a portrayal or an action that is clearly contradictory to the VAST majority of what the character does. Kazar breaking Thanos' bearhug is an example of PIS. Kazar is a peak human who spends his time struggling against lions and raptors, and Thanos is well beyond CL100 (which is why the whole thing was retconned). Flash getting hit from behind by boomerangs is not PIS, because it's happened over 100 times by dozens of writers.

So to say that Flash would take out Xavier before Xavier finished his thought is false because 50 years of evidence shows that Flash, while he can move fast, doesn't necessarily react that fast. Whether Flash's reaction times are slowed for reader entertainment purposes or not is irrelevant. It's established.
Well let me put it this way

Which speeder that has lots of comics haven't been tagged in battle etc

What if Xavier was wearing Cerebro and was in DC Universe could he mentally kill everybody on the Earth

Originally posted by demigawd
What KMC rules? There's a speed for thought??? wtf? Where is this?


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t308157.html

...toward the bottom of Tron's battle-rules is a bit about super-speed and its relation to thought speed. It tries to base off of a credible source, but isn't set in stone. By its estimation, however, Flash would have enough momentum to shatter Zavier into little pieces by the time Xavier's thoughts affected Flash, even if Xavier did influence Flash just before he got to him.



I'd agree, but I'll stick by my educated guess that Flash would kill him before that happens (because I'll be honest, I don't know for sure how this would turn out).



Few weeks ago. You must be the last to know. But yeah, there was a need, and I got asked, so here I am. I'd say something like "Fear Me!" at this point, but I'm beyond the power-trip phase.

Originally posted by golem370
What if Xavier was wearing Cerebro and was in DC Universe could he mentally kill everybody on the Earth
you watched the x-men movie didn't you

Originally posted by kgkg
you watched the x-men movie didn't you

LOL!

Well

But that's the thing - the way I see it, it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. The explanation should be simple - the faster Flash goes, the faster everything inside of Flash goes. So at normal speeds, he's pretty much a normal guy, he thinks normal, moves normal, etc. At 300 miles per hour, his body processes speed up accordingly to keep up. Ditto at 3000, 30,000, 300,000, etc. So that makes is very possible to tag him if you catch him off guard, or by surprise, or if you restrict his movements to very confined areas.

That very simple explanation will account for 90% of his "PIS" fights with non-speedsters, while still giving him the respect as the fastest around, since he can accelerate to full speed in mere nanoseconds. That's the way I've always seen him, and it's made him very consistent as a result. I just won't buy into this whole "kill you before you think" thing because there's no history of him doing it in the actual comics, regardless of the political reasons.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t308157.html

...toward the bottom of Tron's battle-rules is a bit about super-speed and its relation to thought speed. It tries to base off of a credible source, but isn't set in stone. By its estimation, however, Flash would have enough momentum to shatter Zavier into little pieces by the time Xavier's thoughts affected Flash, even if Xavier did influence Flash just before he got to him.


But my theory isn't how faster Flash can run to Xavier, it's how fast Flash can decide to run and punch Xavier compared to how fast Xavier and decide to mindblast Flash. It's my belief that the 30mps that Xavier's thought processes run is equal or nearly equal to the speed that Flash's thought processes run in a still state, based on the majority of his history.



I'd feel better about your educated guess knowing that there are more examples of Flash mentally registering some event long before anyone else than not (essentially, his normal speed of thought being far greater than 30mps). There aren't. Or, at least, nobody has stepped forward with that information.



Ban anybody yet? Wolverine fanboys, I hope.



Meaning that at some point you were IN the power-trip phase.

Flash wins

Originally posted by demigawd
But my theory isn't how faster Flash can run to Xavier, it's how fast Flash can decide to run and punch Xavier compared to how fast Xavier and decide to mindblast Flash. It's my belief that the 30mps that Xavier's thought processes run is equal or nearly equal to the speed that Flash's thought processes run in a still state, based on the majority of his history.



I'd feel better about your educated guess knowing that there are more examples of Flash mentally registering some event long before anyone else than not (essentially, his normal speed of thought being far greater than 30mps). There aren't. Or, at least, nobody has stepped forward with that information.



Ban anybody yet? Wolverine fanboys, I hope.



Meaning that at some point you were IN the power-trip phase.

Can Xavier keep up with someone who thinks this fast?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/avalonofthewind/flashthink.jpg

That power is granted to him via the speedforce. In order for him to use it, he has to retrieve the power from the speedforce. That means, at normal speeds, he accesses the speedforce, then goes through all the scenarios. It's similar to the scan where he brings other members of the JLA into the speedforce so they can think things through. It's a conscious action that actually adds an additional step to the overall process.

Originally posted by demigawd
That power is granted to him via the speedforce. In order for him to use it, he has to retrieve the power from the speedforce. That means, at normal speeds, he accesses the speedforce, then goes through all the scenarios. It's similar to the scan where he brings other members of the JLA into the speedforce so they can think things through. It's a conscious action that actually adds an additional step to the overall process.

We all know that, but wouldnt someone who thinks that fast mess with X's head? Trying to keep up with that would probably make his head explode.

I'd agree with your point if Xavier were just trying to take over Flash or read his mind. It won't help when Xavier is straight up mind-blasting Flash. he doesn't have to try to read or understand or keep up with Flash's mind...he's just going to destroy it.

By your own admission, he has problems with mags right?
Flash should be even worse. Xavier will be like a Deer caught in headlights.

Xavier has problems with Mags sometimes because Mags has his helmet, sometimes because he generates EM fields that interfere with Xavier's psionic abilities, and sometimes because Mags has extreme willpower and natural psionic defenses. None of these apply to Flash.

Originally posted by demigawd
There was a debate awhile ago where it was revealed that Flash has to accelerate at a certain speed in order to access the speedforce. He can't just *poof* and do it. I think it was kgkg who mentioned this. True or no?



Again, these are examples of him taking action at superspeeds. But what examples exist of him deciding to do something before anybody else? In the former example, Flash knew about the bomb, and at the time it started going off he took action. It's not really the same thing.
You are proving I'm right with your replies.
If you can move at high speeds, but you can't think at high speeds, you'll result into being unable to use your speed in a useful manner, cause your reaction time is under the level of speed your body can achieve.

Increased Perceptions: The Flash possesses the ability to alter his perceptions so that falling objects can appear to be standing still and can be caught and moved back to their normal position. He can do this so quickly as to have it happen invisibly to the normal human eye. The Flash's reaction time is so increased as to perform feats of speed such as removing the momentum from bullets and fast moving objects thrown at him or at others.

Supercharged Brain Activity: The Flash's mental abilities are also increased in speed, simple computations can be done at lightning speeds, and his ability to perform normal feats at increased speeds has allow him to build hundreds of force field generators in a matter of hours, move sandbags to cover a beach or search an entire area for something as small as a paper clip. Wally can also read as superspeed, but rarely takes advantage of his ability to learn at increased speeds, although, Jay Garrick has done so and has become a jack of all trades in several disciplines and languages.

And this was before he achieved full control over his powers.
http://www.starnet-database.com/dbase_deo/profiles/flash/wally4.gif
This is Wally with a costume made of Speed Force energy, used when his legs where injured and unavailable.

Originally posted by kgkg
The main reason why flash gets "ambushed by explosions and knifed by something with Captain America-level reflexes " because the comic demands it

Here I just bought 50 flash comic books and hey flash never gets hit. Boring Zzzzzzzzzz

It’s a comic book, its fact that any speeder gets tagged, but they have shown speed at times which makes it a contradiction.

And you are right about flash needing to accelerate to reach higher speed, he did that when he battle Grod.

He had to run far away to build momentum. Tho I heard he is one with the speed force now. That makes sense, actually I was trying to hit that nail on the head.

People kept saying he didn't have to accelerate, and that he went "instant" superspeed.

Yes demigawd, there IS a speed of thought in the forum rules.

And yes, I believe that flash still wins.

How about when Barry (standing in place, not having used his Flash-speed in a while) is said to have seen every single movement of Red Tornado spinning wildly (this was somewhere in the original "Crisis". Or when Kid Flash owns Cyborg in a video game...the game is going the same speed for both of them, and Bart isn't running around wildly, but he manages to process everything and react with the controller buttons well before Cyborg.



Sadly, no. I'm working on it though...but right now (until I take over all of KMC) fanboy-ism isn't a ban-able sin.



Hell yes! I tried to win the herald-level tourney by threatening bans. Unfortunately they realized I can't really do that...but it almost worked.

Under these conditions, it will be easy for Xavier to win.

All he has to do is to "brainwash" Flash before the light turns green - very secretly so that nobody notices - and to program Flashs brain in a way that Flash won't be able to hurt Xavier.

After that, when the actual fight begins, he can do with Flash whatever he wants to do (probably make him push his wheelchair).

Superman has even said he's faster than thought before...
I'll have to remember when .. .

Superman says a lot of things

Originally posted by who?-kid

Under these conditions, it will be easy for Xavier to win.

All he has to do is to "brainwash" Flash before the light turns green - very secretly so that nobody notices - and to program Flashs brain in a way that Flash won't be able to hurt Xavier.

After that, when the actual fight begins, he can do with Flash whatever he wants to do (probably make him push his wheelchair). cheater...