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Carth and Atton piloting the Ebon hawk versus Han and Chewie in the Falcon. Which ship survives?

carth/atton take this. atton is a han solo wannabe i.e extremely lucky and a skilled pilot and carth is an ex-war pilot a master at flying.

Hmm...Han and Chewie win this...because:

A)
They have tons of experience flying the Falcon (smuggling, battles)... I'd guess they have more of it than Carth and Atton.

B)
The Falcon has more advanced technology and is the faster ship.

C)
Han and Chewie are a team working together for years.

D)
Han is an awesome pilot not only because of his skill - he knows a trick or two (seen in ESB - the "vanishing".

good point but atton could be a jedi like he can be in kotor 2 and use battle meditation atton/carth win

Since when has Atton been know to be an adept at Battle Meditation and also game stats don't count in Vs threads.

so..... atton is what you make him and its my oppinion so let me think that way othwr wise make a thread that isnt boring lectures and head pain patronising ...... sorry i wont make eany more mistakes

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Hmm...Han and Chewie win this...because:

A)
They have tons of experience flying the Falcon (smuggling, battles)... I'd guess they have more of it than Carth and Atton.

B)
The Falcon has more advanced technology and is the faster ship.

C)
Han and Chewie are a team working together for years.

D)
Han is an awesome pilot not only because of his skill - he knows a trick or two (seen in ESB - the "vanishing".

I agree with Nai Fohl, the I think Han and Chewie would only barely pull it off. If this was them actually fighting without a ship, Atton and Carth would crush Han and Chewie easily.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Hmm...Han and Chewie win this...because:

A)
They have tons of experience flying the Falcon (smuggling, battles)... I'd guess they have more of it than Carth and Atton.

B)
The Falcon has more advanced technology and is the faster ship.

C)
Han and Chewie are a team working together for years.

D)
Han is an awesome pilot not only because of his skill - he knows a trick or two (seen in ESB - the "vanishing".

I totally disagree. Nai's overlooking a few things here.

A) Tons of experience flying, yes. Tons of experience in war? Not comparable to Carth and Atton, who both fought in two major wars. This pulls a lot for them.

B) The Falcon does have a technilogical advantage, but it is slimmer than Nai's hinting at. The major difference in ships from KOTOR-era to PT/OT era is usually size (Of which the Millenium Falcon is much bigger, as seen in ANH, compared to the ratio fo character to Ebon Hawk in both games) and the amount of weaponry. As for speed, the Ebon Hawk MIGHT be slower, but I haven't seen anything to indicate it has... That is, there's no stats for the KOTOR era ships, are there?

C) Yes, and Carth and Atton have worked with other people for years and are much more learned and adaptable. And keep in mind that while Han is an amazing pilot, Chewie is a horrible shot at best. And top this off with Atton being Force sensitive and you've got two crack pilot/soldiers versus a smuggler/Imperial navy wash out and a wookiee. Even if that wookiee IS Chewie.

D) Agreed, and Atton himself is an awesome pilot, and we can assume Carth was too. Either one of them or both might be better than Han... or perhaps not. But the element of wartime experience and flying a smaller ship in combat weighs in favor of Carth and Atton.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
That is, there's no stats for the KOTOR era ships, are there?

Only for the firepower I believe. Ebon Hawk is outgunned I believe, as it only has 2 turbolasers , and the hawk has 8 (4 on top, 4 on bottom), as well as military grade shielding and concussion missiles (think "Outrider" in Shadows of the Empire or Jango's Slave1).

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
A) Tons of experience flying, yes. Tons of experience in war? Not comparable to Carth and Atton, who both fought in two major wars. This pulls a lot for them.

Erm...
Smuggling career = 5 years
Galactic Civil War = 4 years

And we're talking about piloting abilities here. Atton worked as kind of spy / assasin - mercenary work. Carth had two wars with 3 years each and he did some work as tactician.
Now please...for sheer piloting abilities Han and Chewie had 9 years when it comes to fighting, mercenary work and stuff like that you have some major conflicts following in the next 26 years past the Galactic Civil War. I guess that is enough to compare with Atton and Carth.
Please keep in mind at this point that Chewie is 200 years old in ANH times and has - at least - participated in the Clone Wars.



There are not but it would be logical to assume that a 4,000 year old ship is slower that the fastest (or one of the fastest) ship 4,000 years later. Even if it's not - the better weaponry gives the Falcon some advantage here.



Well...Han could be as force sensitive as Atton is - remember what Kreia tells you about lucky people. And basically you have 2 people that have (both on their own) gone through 6 years of war on the one side while you have a team that is working together for more than 3 decades on the other side.
And please don't try to tell me that Atton is good at "teamwork".



Well...what is harder: Fly a big ship and survive a battle or do the same with a smaller ship ? Hard to tell...At least we know that Carth was a hero of war but - what do you know about Atton and his piloting skills ?

That he managed to fly the ship around the galaxy, evade capture by planetary defense forces, evade the mandalorians, survive the jedi civil war, SMUGGLE. Plus, having the grand admiral of the republic's forces can't hurt either.

Another thing to consider, the Ebon Hawk only has a gun turret. The Falcon has loads of hidden weaponry and their little stealth jammer thing. Give the teams the same ship and I might go with Carth and Atton.

I suppose the whole argument now is can Atton/Carth's skill take away the edge from the Falcon?

It's a close one in my book. With the same ship I think it's probably too hard to tell.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Erm...
Smuggling career = 5 years
Galactic Civil War = 4 years

And we're talking about piloting abilities here. Atton worked as kind of spy / assasin - mercenary work. Carth had two wars with 3 years each and he did some work as tactician.
Now please...for sheer piloting abilities Han and Chewie had 9 years when it comes to fighting, mercenary work and stuff like that you have some major conflicts following in the next 26 years past the Galactic Civil War. I guess that is enough to compare with Atton and Carth.
Please keep in mind at this point that Chewie is 200 years old in ANH times and has - at least - participated in the Clone Wars.



There are not but it would be logical to assume that a 4,000 year old ship is slower that the fastest (or one of the fastest) ship 4,000 years later. Even if it's not - the better weaponry gives the Falcon some advantage here.



Well...Han could be as force sensitive as Atton is - remember what Kreia tells you about lucky people. And basically you have 2 people that have (both on their own) gone through 6 years of war on the one side while you have a team that is working together for more than 3 decades on the other side.
And please don't try to tell me that Atton is good at "teamwork".



Well...what is harder: Fly a big ship and survive a battle or do the same with a smaller ship ? Hard to tell...At least we know that Carth was a hero of war but - what do you know about Atton and his piloting skills ?

First off, yes Atton DID do spy and assassin work. But he was a pilot in the war obviously before that. Look at his piloting skills in game- he manages to outmanuever fire from a capital class Republic warship, avoid gunfire in the skies above Onderon, land two small transports which were hit with enemy fire... All these and possibly a few more I'm missing are clear indicators that Atton is no amateur pilot. Being Force sensitive helps too. Also, I might add that yes, Han is probably stronger with the Force than he admits, but he's no jedi either. IF Atton were to canonically become a jedi and refine his abilities, than he would have a definate edge there. Note the conditional.

Yes, nine years of smuggling. I know. And the majority of that was pretty rough. But some of it was pretty docile, too. Don't get me wrong; Han and Chewie have done some remarkable things, from the action over the skies of Nar Shadaa to their adventures in the Corporate Sector. But they aren't professional soldiers used to dealing with enemies who are legion. War with the Mandalorians was akin to our own World War II in that it was incredible in the amount of destruction and lives lost. But the war over Kashyyk? Looked predominately ground battle, with droids. Chewie and his kin I don't recall manning a ship. And you yourself said this was pilotting, not melee or ranged combat. The battle over Nar Shadaa? Prepared from start to finish.
Those two particular scenarios don't give us any indicator of how they would deal with another pilot in a classic dogfight. (Though if you've read of something that I'm forgetting, lemme know)

Now I concede that the Ebon Hawk may be outgunned in terms of armaments, but it's skill in using those armaments that make a difference. Since we don't have any indicator of how well shielded the Ebon Hawk was compared to the shielding on the Millenium Falcon, it could take as little as one good shot to off the smaller freighter. Who knows? But what I do know is that Chewie isn't the hottest gunner in the universe, and Han himself would be needed to pilot in this case to counter the moves of whoever was flying the Hawk. So while the Falcon may have at least two manual gun turrets, only one can be operated. Same goes for the Hawk. It's gonna come down to one being the lead pilot and the other being the gunner. Who's a better gunner between either Carth or Atton and Chewie? My money goes on the former. And as for the speed factor, the Ebon Hawk apparently moves just like the MF... at sublight speeds, I doubt that much has technologically changed, since the Millenium Falcon's reputation for speed comes in part from Han's trials with the Kessel Run and it's lightspeed capabilities, the latter of which won't affect this fight. So my point is the EH might not be slower than the MF at sublight manueverability at all. If anything, being a smaller ship, it might be more agile.

And for the last part... Assumption city.

Unless I am horribly mistaken, the exact length or intensity of Carth and Atton's service isn't shown. But saying that there is three decades of experience on the side of Han and Chewie applies only to Chewie. At the time of ANH (Which is what I'm assuming this thread is based on... it should be more specific) Han is perhaps 38, tops. He began piloting as a smuggler around 18 or 19. So at max he has had twenty years of flying, which is incredible and does him credit, but it doesn't neccessarily win him this match either. As for Chewie, Han is clearly the superior pilot, and Chewie the inferior gunner, so the match is lopsided in this regard.

Atton may not be teamwork meister of the year, Nai, but he is a much more capable opponent than a wookiee crammed into a turret ball. And I'm betting either Carth or Atton can give Han a run for his money when it comes to pilotting.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
First off, yes Atton DID do spy and assassin work. But he was a pilot in the war obviously before that. Look at his piloting skills in game- he manages to outmanuever fire from a capital class Republic warship, avoid gunfire in the skies above Onderon, land two small transports which were hit with enemy fire... All these and possibly a few more I'm missing are clear indicators that Atton is no amateur pilot. Being Force sensitive helps too. Also, I might add that yes, Han is probably stronger with the Force than he admits, but he's no jedi either. IF Atton were to canonically become a jedi and refine his abilities, than he would have a definate edge there. Note the conditional.

Atton is a nice pilot from what is seen in the game - still: Do we get any evidence where he got that skill from ? Did I miss something or is it again the german version of KOTOR II ?
And don't start with conditionals - since the EU is a "parallel universe" Han might run around as a Jedi in the "original" universe.



Well...for piloting skills:
- Attack manouver in the "Black Fleet" Series where Chewie wants to rescue Han. As far as I remember Chewie set some bombs, did a mini-jump to lightspeed, jumped out just in front of the ship he wanted to enter, did some impossible brake manouver and entered the ship (so he is a goddamn good pilot)
- for other things watch the films...especially manouvers and combat.

ANH:
- destroying one of the TIE fighters in the trench from mid range with a single shot (and this was not Han shooting)

ESB:
- flight through the asteroid field
- flight into the asteroid
- outmanouver the Star Destroyers

ROTJ:
- flight through the second Death Star (just to talk about speed an manouverability)



Where did they ever tell that Chewie isn't a good gunner or pilot ? The last statement seems to be wrong.
And just to tell you: The Falcon was modified heavily during the EU (again "Black Fleet" series)...the gun turrets can be controlled from the cockpit so it's possible to fly and fight the Falcon now being alone.



Oh...well...I thought we are talking about random time (or peak) and this would be EU with modified Falcon but just to throw some stuff in here:

- Han is 29 in ANH
- he started piloting as a smuggler at the age of 24 (5 BBY)
- he was in the Imperial Navy before - since Luke is late with joining the Navy (being 19) I guess the normal age to join would be 18 giving Han 6 years of piloting experience + 5 years of piloting experience as a smuggler that means 11 years flying experience in ANH times.

Still I don't know where you got your "Chewie is the inferirior pilot from" - and as I said. If this is the modified MF Han might be able to do all the work alone and Chewie can use the gun turrets from the cockpit. And - just to remind you - the single laser gun of the MF (that can be seen in ESB firing at the troops and in ANH destroying the single TIE fighter) is enough to destroy a TIE-Fighter and can also be used from the cockpit.

So modified MF with Chewie and Han (using 2 x 4 + 1 laser guns at once) would pretty much blow the EH away. Under your conditions (ANH Han and Chewie with ANH Falcon) Carth and Atton with the EH might take this but I still think that Han / Chewie (Chewie pilot, Han at the gun) would give them a run for their money - and they might even be able to win this.

Looks like Nai has got you here Janus.

I think he does too, but a lot of it is my own lack of knowledge. I haven't read most of the books beyond the PT era. And I think if it were ANH Han and Chewie, it would be close, as he says.

Even if I was arguing from ignorance, at least I put up something for the opposition.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
I think he does too, but a lot of it is my own lack of knowledge. I haven't read most of the books beyond the PT era. And I think if it were ANH Han and Chewie, it would be close, as he says.

Well...that's the problem. From the movies or the books from the OT era you'll nearly never have Chewie piloting and there is nothing special about the MF (It's basically a flying wreck ). But with the modifications and informations given in the post OT era EU you can tell that Chewie can handle the MF quite good and that ship would toast the EH.

And as I said: ANH Han and Chewie with the ANH Falcon is another thing...that would be really close.

BTW: How do you people like my new sig ?

Han and Chewi have this. It would be like me in the Bismark vs. any of you in an Ancient Indian Canoe. I win.

That argument relies on hyperbole. Good night sir!

Who are the people in it?

I was just about to ask that. I like Nai's sigs for their style and scheme, but I never recognize anyone in them.

And Glentract, that line was a horrible analogy. Technology isn't THAT retro in KOTOR. They do have things called blasters and lightsabers and hyperdrives, you know.

Originally posted by Rayvann Sadow
Who are the people in it?

left: Exar Kun
left side of the text: Marka Ragnos
behind the text: Dooku choking Obi-Wan
right side of the text: Freedon Nadd
right: Comic version of Dooku

I like it.

And I know that was a bad analogy, but I didn't have time to make a better analogy at the time. Anyway, Han and Chewie win. They are just plain and simpy better pilots.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I like it.

And I know that was a bad analogy, but I didn't have time to make a better analogy at the time. Anyway, Han and Chewie win. They are just plain and simpy better pilots.

Aside from various EU worshipping novels, I don't think that's the case. Like Nai has said, if this were only ANH Han and Chewie, they might lose.

Well...Han and Chewie don't have any godlike status in the EU novels (compared to force users mentioned).
But since experience is gathered over time it's quite useless to say Chewie / Han in ANH would be as good as Chewie / Han in the EU novels (10 or 15 years later).
And they had some heavy modifications on the Falcon during that time period.

Right. I based almost my whole stance on them being ANH, since I haven't read most of the EU material like you have. I honestly don't like the idea of characters being taken over and used by other people. It seems... horrible. But I don't seem to feel that way about the Clone Wars novels. I think it's because they don't suck.

well i dont no the other people so uhhh im gunna say chewie and han i guess it doesnt count though

No, it doesn't. I could walk into any thread and go

;lol; luke winz foo

meh, nice fight.

But Han and Chewie seem like the ultimate team, they can can fight like a duo, however... Carth and Atton cannot.