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I think Luke would win, but there are some retarded people here. JK. Seriously though, who do you think would win?

luke easily wins this

mabe you should go read up on Bastila a bit. I agree, Luke wins, but in no way is it an easy victory.

This is a good match IMO. I really don't have enough info to determine. I mean how strong was metal Vader. That would give me a better feel. Bastila was a good warrior on her own, but I think Force powers, such as Battle Meditation, made her more of a support fighter rather than a powerhouse. I would say Luke, even though Bastila puts up one hell of a fight.

i think it is, bastilla never gets too good on kotor and luke can do crazy stuff like manipulate gravity. Bastilla is only great because od her good battle meditation otherwise i believe she is on the same level as juhani. also this is not a war but duel so her ability will not help her here.

uh luke never manipulated gravity in ROTJ

joeyvermont, the fact that you are in Italy alone makes me think you are a good guy(I'm half Italian and I'm visiting my Italian Godparents right now). At the top it says ROTJ Luke. That means that it is Luke at his peak in ep6. NJO Luke was able to manipulate gravity, ROTJ Luke is still over twenty years from being able to do that.

whoops sorry, i thought you said NJO luke, in that case i actually think bastilla migth win but only slightly, but its close, and where abouts are you staying in italy.

I'm 100% italian.

Bastila of course... Luke knows some BASIC force stuff, but he has never confronted a real duelist.

Bastila uses a lightstaff, which had quite an impact agains QgJ and Obi1 because they propably had never eaven seen one ignited, let alone fought against one.

Luke might wonder if it's something eatable, before having it thrusted into his chest.

Only reason for Yoda and Obiwan to think that Luke might prevail against vader and palpyman was the fact that they had had like a 20 years vacation from active dueling.

Surely Luke is likely to be way "stronger with the force", but so was anakin when storming obi wan on mustafar. It was obi's wisdom and experience combined with anakin's arrogance, which enabled him to gain victory.

Bastila wins this in all her forms, but the later it is the better.

First of all, Luke would not know how to fight somebody like her, her style is different and the way she moves her lightsaber and the way her lightsabe is build, it would be hard for Luke to understand and follow. Second of all Bastila would attack with fury's and the force, she would take Luke back inch y inch until he would fail. Luke wouldd not know what to do except for attack head on, surely somebody more powerful would be able to take that back.

Somebody forgot to pay attention in the beginning FMV of KOTOR where Bastila single handedly kills a dark jedi.

A dark jedi that would give someone like ROTJ Luke (Who is not a jedi knight, I don't care what the hell you people try and say) fits and a half.

Bastila wins this.

lol bastilla would own luke with a saber, she's faster then anyone he's fought before and she uses a unique style and weapon, she killed tons of dark jedi enough said, and if she's DS she'd rip him apart with force powers.

i dont think its as close as that but i still think she would win

A question i always ask, in every thread with Bastila. Which Bastila, PreKotor, Kotor, PostKotor? PreKotor 50/50, Kotor 75/25, Post 90/10. The reason I think she would win, she had more actual Jedi training since she was 4 or something. Luke started late, and Yoda didnt really have the resources to properly train luke. And, as i always, say, Bastila's too pretty to die. Luke is just...a big whiner.

Luke defeated Vader in one-on-one combat though. GL even says this. Luke also took almost a minute of force lightning from Sidious and got up after looking a little pale and breathing hard. Anakin was hit by Dooku and sat there like a weiner for a long time. This means that Luke has far better resistance to force lightning than ep2 Anakin and is better in an overall fight, by a little, than ep6 Vader. Can you seriously say that Bastila could take Vader?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Luke defeated Vader in one-on-one combat though. GL even says this. Luke also took almost a minute of force lightning from Sidious and got up after looking a little pale and breathing hard. Anakin was hit by Dooku and sat there like a weiner for a long time. This means that Luke has far better resistance to force lightning than ep2 Anakin and is better in an overall fight, by a little, than ep6 Vader. Can you seriously say that Bastila could take Vader?

Dammit Glentract. Every time I think you're okay you go and say something like this.

Luke had several factors in his favor. The biggest one being that Vader didn't want to kill his son! GL says that too.

Yes, he was shocked by Force lightning for almost a minute. Bastila was tortured with it for perhaps days before she even broke. PLease, it's a nonissue anyways. Drop it. And you can't compare the power of Sidious' lightning to Dooku's lightning because it's inconsistant all the way around. For dramatic neccessity's sake, Anakin was down, just as Yoda was, and just as Luke was able to get up. If Luke hadn't gotten up, he'd be dead and the series would have been a flop. So please, don't say that when it comes to Sith lightning, Luke >Anakin, Bastila, and Yoda, because we know that's a bunch of shit. If anything, Sidious was torturing Skywalker, not killing or incapacitating him. Probably because he wanted Skywalker to suffer or break.

And yes, Bastila could take Episode VI Vader. He sucks. He's slow, his command of the Force as displayed is lacking, and his victories at this point rank against old people who have given up the fight and a small barely trained farm boy. Please, don't blow Vader in your attempt to persuade me. Bastila has defeated at the very least a dark jedi, and she was worthy enough for Malak and Revan both to want her as their second in command. If mech-Vader had existed in KOTOR times, he would have been lucky to lead a small infantry unit with his piss poor skills.

Bastila wins this. End of story.

Ya, I go on my little rants for the underdog, but I usually can sleep it off.

In ESB, according to Emperor Revan, Vader goes full on against Luke after Luke gets a lucky hit at daddies shoulder. Luke manages to hold out against Vader for some time before losing his hand.

Same in ROTJ. Luke goes as hard as he can against Luke when Luke is in his little DS rage. Luke beats him solidly.

About the lightning, just because it is WAY in Luke's favor I feel you are trying to make it a moot point. Sure the lightning wasn't nearly as strong as what Sidious was throwing at Yoda or Mace, but it looked to be at least as hard as Dooku's. Luke is definatly a lot better than Anakin as resisting force lightning.


About Vader being piss-poor. That is unsupported IMO. I don't see any reason for Sidious to have gotten any weaker and it has been stated that Vader in OT times is about 80% as good as Sidious. If Sidious is at least close to Yoda, I would say not less than 90%, then Vader in PT times will be more than(sorry, it's late here so my math is probably wrong) 72% of Yoda. Luke is better than Vader, so he must be <72% of Yoda. I don't think Bastila is nearly that good.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Ya, I go on my little rants for the underdog, but I usually can sleep it off.

In ESB, according to Emperor Revan, Vader goes full on against Luke after Luke gets a lucky hit at daddies shoulder. Luke manages to hold out against Vader for some time before losing his hand.

Same in ROTJ. Luke goes as hard as he can against Luke when Luke is in his little DS rage. Luke beats him solidly.

About the lightning, just because it is WAY in Luke's favor I feel you are trying to make it a moot point. Sure the lightning wasn't nearly as strong as what Sidious was throwing at Yoda or Mace, but it looked to be at least as hard as Dooku's. Luke is definatly a lot better than Anakin as resisting force lightning.


About Vader being piss-poor. That is unsupported IMO. I don't see any reason for Sidious to have gotten any weaker and it has been stated that Vader in OT times is about 80% as good as Sidious. If Sidious is at least close to Yoda, I would say not less than 90%, then Vader in PT times will be more than(sorry, it's late here so my math is probably wrong) 72% of Yoda. Luke is better than Vader, so he must be <72% of Yoda. I don't think Bastila is nearly that good.

According to Emperor Revan. I hate to break this to you, but there's two people that Emperor Revan loves above all else in the SW universe. One's Luke. The other's in his SN. But since I've watched ESB probably every year since before I could write in cursive, I'll clear this up: Vader's intent thoughout this whole fight is to take Luke alive. He never gives him his full measure, although he does in a moment of rage take off Luke's hand, sending his lightsaber flying along with it. This just goes to show that if Vader wasn't holding back, even for a few seconds, he'd destroy Luke the barely trained farmboy. So the fight goes like this- Vader wants top capture Luke so he basically toys with him. Luke nabs him on the shoulder (And it wasn't even a clean blow, a clean blow would have killed Vader or at the very least severed his arm at the shoulder) so Vader loses his temper with his son and sends his arm flying. So for this entire fight, Vader isn't trying and Luke isn't proving that he can defeat Bastila.

The battle in ROTJ is almost always cited for the premise "Luke pwns Vader fair and square." I'd like to point out a few things:

- The battle turned for Luke once he came out of hiding and attacked Vader.

- At this point, all he did was lash out wildly. And all Vader did was defend, rather feebly. For all those who say Vader's robotic arms are super strong,btw, here's proof they're not. If they were, why the hell would Vader be beaten down by Luke? You could say it was the Force granting him power, but shouldn't Vader be able to do the same? Or was he just so at a loss at this point that he couldn't defend himself properly? No, Luke does not defeat Vader on even ground here, and Vader never tries to level the playing field. The victory here is very one-sided, much like Vader's victory against Obi-Wan. Saying Luke "Beat him solidly" is the same as saying Vader beat Obi-Wan "solidly". I didn't see a decent effort to defend themselves one way or the other at the end of each fight.

Uh huh. Let's try this part on the lightning again. Here's your argument: It LOOKS way stronger than Dooku's, which put Anakin on his ass. But your big problem here is one of assumption. Dooku's lightning was relatively tame at that point. The only lightning Dooku used that was even close to what Sidious used was when he confronted Yoda. And even then he didn't use both hands. I could just as easily say that Dooku using both hands would be much more powerful than Sidious BECAUSE it put Yoda on the defensive and it put Anakin on his ass. So this would undermine Sidious and make Luke out to be a bigger ***** than Anakin. SO the point is, you can't prove anything based on how it looks. You can't prove the intensity of any of the attacks except by their results, and Sidious' lightning in ROTJ showed the weakest results. Thus it makes sense that it would not be as strong as say, Sidious' lighting as used against Yoda, since that was a concussive attack. It is closer to the type used against Mace Windu, which tortured him as Sidious' laughed, and then (I believe at this point) Mace was force shoved out of the window to plummet to his death. And after all is said and done, this does nothing to prove that Luke Skywalker can defeat Bastila Shan in lightsaber combat. thanks for playing the game.

It has been stated that Vader's FORCE POWERS are about 80% of Sidious', not that his combat ability is reflective of that. If anything, Sidious hasn't lifted his lightsaber in twenty some years, so if you apply this analogy to work for all of time starting with Mustafar on, Vader would theoretically get weaker with time, as the emperor atrophies. Now, if you say that no, SIdious doesn't atrophy, that he stays the same in lightsaber skill, etc. Than you must conclude that Vader never gets any better from the point at which he becomes Mecha Vader, for that very same reason. GL says think outside of the box, Glentract. The 80% phrase doesn't add up.

And anyone can see for themselves that OT Vader is NOWHERE near Yoda as he was in the PT. His moves are slow, his Force powers are pretty standard fare, and he isn't even real for the most part; he's half machine. Any argument FOR Vader being a badass is rooted in fanboyish tendencies and has no factual basis.

Now, why do I think Bastila can beat Luke?

- She's had training as a Jedi longer than he has by far.
- She's defeated lightsaber wielding enemies that are just as dangerous if not moreso than Vader. And when I say this, I mean a dark jedi who uses the Force to aid his movements and actions is potentially more dangerous than clunky Vader.
- She has a better command of the Force than Luke does, obviously.
- The whole reason you think Bastila can't beat Luke is totally unsupported.

Good points Janus, but about the lightning thing however, I'm surprised you didn't bring this point up:

Look carefully at what Dooku did to Anakin in AOTC, he shocked him, threw him and Anakin smacked his head HARD against the wall. I think Anakin smacking his head against the wall was what had him down for so long, not the lightning.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Somebody forgot to pay attention in the beginning FMV of KOTOR where Bastila single handedly kills a dark jedi.

A dark jedi that would give someone like ROTJ Luke (Who is not a jedi knight, I don't care what the hell you people try and say) fits and a half.

Bastila wins this.

What the hell Janus? Luke is a Jedi knight, saying he's not is simply a state of denial. Lucas says so, Yoda says so, the Emperor says so, the movie title is named Return of the Jedi for a reason.

Now really, compare all his powers to say, that of AOTC Obi.

Mind Trick=Tie, they both did it and no, it doesn't work on the strong minded, not even from Revan or the Exile.

Telekinesis=Tie, both brought their lightsabers to their hands fast with the Force, not much else to go on.

Blaster Deflection=Obi but barely, Obi deflected every bolt that headed his way even from Jango, Luke got hit in the hand by a stray blast when he was talking to Leia, but he was heavily out numbered by organic beings. Luke also deflected the blasts from a speeding speeder bike so he's not bad at all.

Force Jump=Tie, ESB Luke jumped out of the carbon chamber like a bullet and in ROTJ back flips onto a catwalk. Obi force jumps out of a pit and flips around in air while catching a lightsaber in TPM.

Force Choke=Luke, he choked Gammoreans and Obi doesn't.

Lightsaber Skill=?, Luke owned Vader in under a minute and Obi got owned by Count Dooku who is considerably stronger than Vader.

Force Resistance=?, probably Luke. Luke took about a minute of Force lightning from the Emperor (far more powerful in the Force than Dooku) isn't even breathing hard, and like 25 seconds later he gets up and drags Vader who's pretty heavy, all the way to a ship. Compared to AOTC Anakin who was down for about a minute, breathing hard from a quick 3 second blast from Dooku's (weaker than the Emperor) one handed blast.

Give Luke some credit Janus, he's far more powerful than you're talking.

And as for the fight, I'd say it's close and it depends on which Bastila this is. End of KOTOR would probably win but I doubt the start of KOTOR would.

First of all, Luke never ever owned Vader never. When he defeated Vader it was after a fight where Vader hardly tried.

Second of all, the things they did shows nothing really. Because the people they did it on can not be compared. Luke used it on Gamoreans who are idiots.

The things you base this argument on, make no sense, we can hardly claim either one as more powerful because of it.

I'm not saying Luke's necessarily more powerful than AOTC Obi but I think it's seriously unfair for you guys to say he's a farm boy with no training and can't take one force user. Nothing points that he was weak except for time of training, but look at Kyle Katarn, he killed a Dark Jedi that was basically a sith lord and had been through the valley of the Jedi with less training than Luke.

Jaden Korr defeated Ragnavion after barely any training, Revan and the Exile got really powerful in a very short amount of time.

And all you guys love to say Vader wasn't trying, but guess what, neither was Luke! He was trying even less to beat Vader than Vader was to beat Luke. If Vader could've beaten Luke, he would've done it like in ESb, but Vader got owned, it's as simple as that.

And Janus: Just because I like characters doesn't mean I think they're awesomely powerful, so I would appreciate you not saying things like that especially since you say Luke isn't even a Jedi in Return of the JEDI.

I already said Bastila would probably win if this was the end of KOTOR, but you're seriously underestimating Luke.

Hmm dude, Vader did win from Luke in ESB easily but he had the order to take him alive and it was his son, he wasn't trying to take Luke. Luke barely escaped alive and only because Vader didn't take his chance to kill him.

In ROTJ the same thing happened Vader had plenty of chances to kill Luke but again refused to do so, he was trying to convert Luke until the very last moment, and thats the moment where he was already down. So no he didn't want to kill Luke not because it was his son and not because of the Emperor and his orders. Its very simple all that he knew told him not to kill Luke, he would not want to do it.

And Luke had every intention of killing Vader when he took him down, the moment Vader was down that changed however but before that he used all the anger he had to take Vader down. Also note if Luke did defeat Vader fair it would be his physical strength and his speed that would have brought Vader down. Making Vader absolutely nothing compared to any real Jedi.

Revan and the Exile were also two completely different situations were once as powerful as powerful could be around that time, and the other still remembered the training and got the power from other people. Also its a game, Kyle Katarn like you said walked through the Valley of the Jedi. Now thts going to give you a shit load of power. Of course he was going to be powerful.

In ROTJ Vader only had one chance to kill Vader, when Luke let himself get captured and Vader had his lightsaber. Luke on the other hand, had two chances to kill Vader, the first when he kicked Vader down the stairs, and the second when he cut his hand off. And barely before, he was saying "I will not fight you father." He wanted to beat Vader but not kill him or he would've done so immediately after cutting his hand off. And you can say he was giving in to the dark side when he kicked him down the stairs and could've killed him. Instead he turned off his lightsaber, but Vader tried to kill him anyway when he was unarmed, and then when he threw the lightsaber.

Like I said before, neither Luke nor Vader was trying to kill the other and that makes them even (though Luke was trying less than Vader) and Luke owned him.

Revan couldn't even remember his name when people were talking about things he had done, the Exile hadn't used the Force in 7 years or so, and Kyle didn't go through the valley of the Jedi before fighting Jerec.
How did they get so powerful? Fighting constantly, learning directly from someone, and having incentive to get much stronger unlike most Jedi. Luke did all these things, that's how he gets so powerful so fast.

Emperor Revan is right. Luke wins for reasons he stated. Most of the reasons being given for Bastila being better is a denial of Luke's skill.

dark jedi and sith arent different so why do we call em different is that just before they were called sith??

Jesus, what a damn mess. One post at a time. ER and Glentract, you both disappoint me in this case...

well he was good enough to choke those damn pigly folk so he obviosly would choke the crap out of this bad boy

You dissapoint me in this case, Janus. To much is pointing for Luke being better for me to think otherwise at this time.

Originally posted by DarthMaul9123
well he was good enough to choke those damn pigly folk so he obviosly would choke the crap out of this bad boy

Wow! He force choked two-on second thought I am too repulsed to even argue with this dude.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
What the hell Janus? Luke is a Jedi knight, saying he's not is simply a state of denial. Lucas says so, Yoda says so, the Emperor says so, the movie title is named Return of the Jedi for a reason.

Now really, compare all his powers to say, that of AOTC Obi.

Mind Trick=Tie, they both did it and no, it doesn't work on the strong minded, not even from Revan or the Exile.

Telekinesis=Tie, both brought their lightsabers to their hands fast with the Force, not much else to go on.

Blaster Deflection=Obi but barely, Obi deflected every bolt that headed his way even from Jango, Luke got hit in the hand by a stray blast when he was talking to Leia, but he was heavily out numbered by organic beings. Luke also deflected the blasts from a speeding speeder bike so he's not bad at all.

Force Jump=Tie, ESB Luke jumped out of the carbon chamber like a bullet and in ROTJ back flips onto a catwalk. Obi force jumps out of a pit and flips around in air while catching a lightsaber in TPM.

Force Choke=Luke, he choked Gammoreans and Obi doesn't.

Lightsaber Skill=?, Luke owned Vader in under a minute and Obi got owned by Count Dooku who is considerably stronger than Vader.

Force Resistance=?, probably Luke. Luke took about a minute of Force lightning from the Emperor (far more powerful in the Force than Dooku) isn't even breathing hard, and like 25 seconds later he gets up and drags Vader who's pretty heavy, all the way to a ship. Compared to AOTC Anakin who was down for about a minute, breathing hard from a quick 3 second blast from Dooku's (weaker than the Emperor) one handed blast.

Give Luke some credit Janus, he's far more powerful than you're talking.

And as for the fight, I'd say it's close and it depends on which Bastila this is. End of KOTOR would probably win but I doubt the start of KOTOR would.

1- Luke Skywalker has how much training exactly? How many lightsaber users has he fought? Does hsi experience vastly outweigh Bastila's? No, so please, stuff this idea. GL can say Luke is a jedi knight, big ****ing deal. Luke can't beat a jedi knight wight more training and more experience than himself. It's not happening. If you have two soldiers, and one has ten years of experience and the other three months, you cannot say the one with less experience is just as good. It doesn't follow.

2- This is stupid. You're comparing ROTJ Luke with AOTC Obi-Wan? ER, do you have some sort of stake involved in the success of Luke? Because I can't think of anyone who would argue such a losing idea. Let's refute your foolish points one by one.

Mind Trick= Doesn't affect the battle. Nice try.

Telekinesis= Both can do it. So can Bastila. Again, no point made.

Blaster Deflection= Other than the fact that AOTC Obi-Wan was MUCh better at it then Luke, and that it doesn't even make a damn difference in this fight, I must say, nice try.

Force Jump= Is there a jedi who can't force jump? Oh, wait, even younglings can.

Force choke= Yes, Luke does Force choke something with the IQ and willpower of dried paint. But Obi doesn't, BECAUSE HE'S A JEDI! I mean, think before you say these things... It's ridiculous.

Force resistance= Again, READ MY EARLIER POSTS!!! You cannot tell me with any degree of certainty that Dooku's lightning was weaker or stronger or even on par with Sidious', considering they both act differently at different times! If Sidious' lightning was always the same, why did it blow Yoda back, but only torture Mace and Luke? Because it obviously can have different degrees of power! And considering that Dooku can do the about the same amount of concussive force as Sidious can using only one hand, I'm surprised you aren't here saying that Dooku could possibly be stronger, meaning Anakin suffered a lot more than Luke did. Anyways, this can't be accurately measured, and even if it could, Luke being able to twitch and suffer under a minute's worth of lightning doesn't make him win the fight.

And no, I won't give credit where it isn't do. And ROTJ Luke isn't a real jedi, he's the next best thing in a world where all other jedi are dead or in hiding. He doesn't even abide by the jedi code!

And any Bastila could win this, because she is capable enough at the start of KOTOR to take Luke.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
I'm not saying Luke's necessarily more powerful than AOTC Obi but I think it's seriously unfair for you guys to say he's a farm boy with no training and can't take one force user. Nothing points that he was weak except for time of training, but look at Kyle Katarn, he killed a Dark Jedi that was basically a sith lord and had been through the valley of the Jedi with less training than Luke.

Jaden Korr defeated Ragnavion after barely any training, Revan and the Exile got really powerful in a very short amount of time.

And all you guys love to say Vader wasn't trying, but guess what, neither was Luke! He was trying even less to beat Vader than Vader was to beat Luke. If Vader could've beaten Luke, he would've done it like in ESb, but Vader got owned, it's as simple as that.

And Janus: Just because I like characters doesn't mean I think they're awesomely powerful, so I would appreciate you not saying things like that especially since you say Luke isn't even a Jedi in Return of the JEDI.

I already said Bastila would probably win if this was the end of KOTOR, but you're seriously underestimating Luke.

Don't point to other people. We're dealing with Luke Skywalker, who wasn't a soldier like Kyle Katarn. He could barely deal with a few stormtroopers in ROTJ, or did you fast forward past that part every time? The odds are against Luke in this battle.

And if Luke wasn't trying, I should go and swing like a madman at my friends next time we mock fight, because it sure as hell looked like he was trying to me. Please.... Try to form a decent argument.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You dissapoint me in this case, Janus. To much is pointing for Luke being better for me to think otherwise at this time.

Like what?

Nothing?

That's what I thought.

People, people please lets all calm down here everyone is entiled to their own opinon (dammit Dipsit your supposed to be doing this not me!).

Originally posted by Rayvann Sadow
People, people please lets all calm down here everyone is entiled to their own opinon (dammit Dipsit your supposed to be doing this not me!).

No, I'm making sense. Glentract and emperor Revan are jumping on the Luke Skywalker bandwagon and they don't have a damn thing to prove in their favor. Honestly? I'm getting more than a bit sick of this forum. The fights are drying up, and it's more newbies than anything. All the good debaters are here less and less every day, and then this crap pops up and I have to contend with two people arguing with me that Luke Skywalker could take anyone who wasn't half asleep and I'm just kinda tired of coming on here to argue to a wall.

Screw it, I'm not wasting my night here.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
No, I'm making sense. Glentract and emperor Revan are jumping on the Luke Skywalker bandwagon and they don't have a damn thing to prove in their favor. Honestly? I'm getting more than a bit sick of this forum. The fights are drying up, and it's more newbies than anything. All the good debaters are here less and less every day, and then this crap pops up and I have to contend with two people arguing with me that Luke Skywalker could take anyone who wasn't half asleep and I'm just kinda tired of coming on here to argue to a wall.

Screw it, I'm not wasting my night here.

Your right about the fights drying up since everyone has done them all before and was not accusing you of not making sense as in fact I agree with you I just hate to see tempers flair over something as trival as an internet disagreement over who would win in a hypthetical SW battle. Truthfully this forum is dying however, I mean new members weren't always like this but now it seems that were getting a rash of rude, foolish and idotic members.