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IM BACK!!!!!!!!!! YAHOO!!!!! i really wished i stayed there longer. All the girls were so hot.

where were you

lemme guess. noob? i was in Hawaii

Erm...to me, this is tough.

Count Dooku - Count Dooku is a practitioner of Makashi, possibly the oldest lightsaber form known. Considering how Makashi is a form based on lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat - and the fact that Dooku has around eighty years of experience wielding it, I would say he is the superior duelist.

However. Darth Malak is probably a little more superior to Dooku in the Force. He isn't as efficient or as disciplined as Dooku is and he now lacks the experience when comparing age...so...erm...

This is tough - but I really wanna say Count Dooku wins.

So do I but this is tough. I want to say Dooku wins but...

See, this duel brings in a lot of hidden variables. Most people would say Malak would win, because of his superior skill and experience. That is because Malak is the duelist of a much older generation. But Dooku is at least twenty-five years older than Malak (maybe more) and practices a form of dueling that was around in Malak's time.

Malak was powerful, as him being able to operate the Star Forge has shown. He may have the slight advantage in the Force. And Dooku is no where near leagues above him. But Malak reminds me of Anakin to a degree. He is rash and headstrong. Dooku is neither.

Malak might win this if he kept his head and his resolve. Because other than that, they are about even. But intellect and posture in battle means a great deal - so I think Dooku wins. But far from easily.

Dooku is at least twice Malak's age, no doubt. Malak is in his thirties or so during his peak in KOTOR.

However, it is the experience here that counts. And not experience in training, sparring, etc. I mean battle, war. Now Dooku, being a Jedi, obviously went on missions both diplomatic and requiring aggressive negotiations. But Malak, he fought through years of straight war as a frontline general. Other than the occasional duel, which was more than enough to keep him in tip-top form, Dooku saw little battle. Now, his eighty-three years may nigh nullify this advantage born from constant battling, but it won't nullify the hard-won battle-savvy and tactical precision brought by war. I'd give them both a high, very high, dueling skill. As to who is superior, I cannot truly say.

As for other factors:

Force Power

I'd have to give this to Malak, but by a close margin. He simply has a larger reservoir of knowledge present at his day and age.

Miscellaneous

Malak has, easily, the advantage in size and brute power, being three inches taller than Dooku, and obviously, his rhinocerous' strength. He'd also have better reach, along with fast and powerful swings. He could keep Dooku from using the most of his Makashi finesse with his four-foot blade as well; he could probably have a swing radius of seven feet.

And Malak being cocky? He's shrewed in his own right. Cowardly? He's never run from a battle in his life. Hot-headed? He's as controlled as you can be, although I'd give Dooku whatever advantage a lack of this would present.

Overall? I'd give it to Malak. Combine swordsmanship to die for with Force powers that have been the bane of many, and a physique that'd put a Gamorrean to shame, he's got some good advantages, although Dooku would present what would be, arguably, his greatest challenge yet.

Faunus!

Hey, wassup'? How was Hawaii?

awesome!!!! i wanna go back, but i got school. Where's Janus?

Tsk. Pervert. . .

jk. it was great

Well...

I think Dooku will take Malak.
Talking about experience Dooku has a great advantage here. Fighting as a frontline general will give you some experience how to survive on a battlefield but where should the "duelling skill" come from ? There won't be many duels to fight in a full scale war if it's X Sith / Dark Jedi + normal soldiers vs X Mandalorians or normal soldiers + Jedi.

And Dooku was trained for lightsaber duels only. He uses the best duel form he practiced against people like Yoda and Mace. He stayed alive versus Yoda and he toyed around with Obi-Wan and Anakin at once.

For force powers: This is speculation. We know that Dooku had a great potential being one of the most powerful Jedi the order had in the last centuries. Then he had - at least - 7 decades of training as a Jedi (two or three times of what Malak had) and 13 years of Sith training (again twice as much as Malak had). And Malak is not learning as fast as Revan.

Malaks physical advantages are nice but not even worth mentioning when it comes to a lightsaber duel. Revan did defeat him and Revan was (as far as it can be seen) smaller than Dooku and physically weaker - that really doesn't mean much.

Nai Fohl - you're all about business, man.

EDIT

if we include force powers this is close with malak having a good arsenal of force attacks he should pull it off. He's considered better then sidious by most.H owever if it's a saber duel he gets wrecked.

It could go either way. . . But after Nai Fohl's latest post, I'm leaning a tad bit more towards Dooku.

malak with the power of the star forge will easily win this, he iss= too strong with it and very hard to kill, without it he would only slightly win, his force knowledge and combat are better than tyranus in my opinion

joey actually has a good point if the duel is in the starforge malak would win not easily but he would. ouside of the forge though i'd say dooku. if you've read labrynth of evil at one point dooku getss all upset about grevious and his IG-100 magna gaurds practicing fighting. it's not about strength in lightsaber duels. yes it can help but compared to a dueling perfectionist they can parry the blade easily. so i say dooku takes it but it won't be easy for him.

This isn't in the Star Forge. . .

Faunus is right. This isn't the Star Forge, it's Hawaii

Even at the Star Forge Dooku would beat him.

dooku will never beat him

Why not?

In a normal duel, he may, but on the Star Forge, no.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
In a normal duel, he may, but on the Star Forge, no.


When exactly do we learn that the Star Forge gives you a power boost?

Would just like to know, because I only remember it giving you a lot of ships.

In KOTOR, when you see bolts of lightning fly from the core to empower Bastila, ad when it preserves the life force of a dozen Jedi so Malak can use them to empower himself.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
In KOTOR, when you see bolts of lightning fly from the core to empower Bastila, ad when it preserves the life force of a dozen Jedi so Malak can use them to empower himself.


Whatever, but under normal circumstances Dooku would win, correct?

Most likely, yes.

i dont even agrre with that due to the fact that he was revans apprentice

. . . Huh?

exactly

Malak wins. Most of the reasons have already been posted, but also the fact that he used a great lightsaber(although small for a great lightsaber) would give him an advantage.

M4L4K W1NZ B3C4UZ3 H3 1Z 4NCI3/\/T S1TH L0RD!

are you ok, sorgo?

Malak does win.

He has war experience, you can say that it doesn't mean much because it was in a war and not one on one. But if you look at any fight through history were front line generals actually fought, well they always had people aiming at them, they were the targets to go far. If history can be any indication for Star Wars then it would be logical to assume that the most powerful would go for Malak while the rest would challenge the rest, meaning that Malak almost constantly fought the most powerful enemy's that were around. Unless of course Revan was around, but well you know what I mean.

Second of all, we can compare their power of the force. Jedi Council members could not even control the Star Forge, only Malak and Revan could nobody else had the power. Its pretty clear that this makes him extreme with the force, and far much more powerful then Dooku. Also you say toying around with Obi and Anakin makes him impressive? Dooku toyed around with two Jedi just before Revan walked in, using far more powerful force attacks to take them out, knowing he was just about to have the fight of his life.

Oh know, Malak is far more powerful then Dooku with both a lightsaber and the force, Dooku is good. But he simply does not have the experience that Malak has.

thats right

although dooku also had war experience too during the clone wars

Originally posted by Fishy
He has war experience, you can say that it doesn't mean much because it was in a war and not one on one. But if you look at any fight through history were front line generals actually fought, well they always had people aiming at them, they were the targets to go far. If history can be any indication for Star Wars then it would be logical to assume that the most powerful would go for Malak while the rest would challenge the rest, meaning that Malak almost constantly fought the most powerful enemy's that were around. Unless of course Revan was around, but well you know what I mean.

a)
Where does that frontline general stuff come from. Is it ever told how he participated in the wars ?

b)
If it's told somewhere - who did he fight in that wars ? I mean: Knowing how to deflect blasterfire a Mandalorian shoots at you doesn't make you a great duellist and don't tell me he probably fought hundrets or thousands of Jedi because - as we get to know in KotoR II - Revan mostly used rouge tactics against them.

c)
In a war you have battlefields and these aren't little duel arenas. Why should Malak have fought the most powerful people ?



Nice try to compare power. We don't even know how the Star Forge work but what we know is that is was some kind of dark side artifact so it most likely requires a "dark sider" to control it. Then it's logically that no Jedi could do that.



No, it is not.



a)
How powerful where those two Jedi compared to Obi-Wan and Anakin (force powers and lightsaber skills) ? We don't know. Council material ? Who can tell ?

b)
Malak used far more powerful (where did you get that from ?) force powers to kill two people when he knew he would have the duel of his life only moments later ? So he wasted force powers ?



Proof ? We know that Dooku had some direct combat experience. We know who he fought against. And all we know - for sure - about Malak is that:

a) he killed 2 Jedi
b) he nearly killed Kavar
c) he lost to Revan

Now what does that tell us ? That Malak nearly killed one Council level Jedi Master and needed to hurry to kill 2 Jedi because his former Master was returning where Dooku could handle 2 Council level Jedi at once and even toyed with them and could have easily killed them both in less than 30 seconds when they were Jedi ?

I can't see where Malak is the better duellist and force user.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
a)
Where does that frontline general stuff come from. Is it ever told how he participated in the wars ?

Kotor 1, Malak was a front line general and a legendary duellist.



Against those that he could yes, but there had to be Jedi around that cuold not be killed like that, that could not be hunted down and executed. Jedi that were on the front line of the wars. Malak would have fought them.



Logic, who is going to be your primary target, the weak bastard or the powerful one. The one that means nothing or the one that could change the tie of the war. Throughout history commanders have always been the best target, seeing as Malak is described as somebody who fights in the battles during Kotor 1 it would be logical to assume that all those that stood a chance would attack him and that the most powerful one's would create that chance.




Masters joined Malak and Revan... They could not control the Star Forge.



What would it matter? Obi Wan and Anakin were nice but nothing special, we know Malak was more powerful then Masters could beat powerful Masters as well. There is just no reason to assume either one of those would stand a chance against Malak, he would cream them too. Dooku was never challenged, not until he fought Yoda and he couldn't win that he lost his life in a weak way. Malak was challenged once and he lost because of Revan.

Now Malak and Revan could have been leagues above everybody else, but you are not honestly going to tell me that you think those two could be weak. There is just no logic in it, Malak would have to had fought a lot of people, its implied.

TEb)
Malak used far more powerful (where did you get that from ?) force powers to kill two people when he knew he would have the duel of his life only moments later ? So he wasted force powers ?

I don't know, if you get tired from using it, hardly matters anyways. And yeah, he was choking them both then used lightning on one and threw his lightsaber at the other.



Who did Dooku face and beat that was worth fighting except for Mace but that was a training match? We don't know anything specific about Malak, but all logic says he killed more people and those that are considered powerful.



Killed in a hurry? He was waiting for Revan to show up before he killed them. He was toying with them, god knows how long he held them like that. And two council level Jedi? They are nothing special, neither one of them was trained enough and had the power. They would lose from most Jedi that had seen any kind of real combat.



And I can't see how Dooku stands a chance...

Fishy: Right now I'm thinking Malak would win too, but some of the things you're saying I have no idea where you got em.

1. Malak wouldn't have many powerful opponents to fight, the Jedi don't send assassins (remember Saul's interrogation) and they didn't know the location of the Star Forge which Malak would be every now and then, the Mandalorians might have sent people but it wasn't Mandalore so that's no real threat to Malak. However, Malak did beat Kavar early on and got stronger since then, so we know he can beat a pretty powerful Jedi that would've lead the Republic into battle if Revan hadn't.

2. This stuff comes from the disciple right? Anyway, who's to say they weren't killed? Or why would they even try to control the Star Forge with Malak around anyway?

Nevertheless, the Rakatan computer on the Unknown world says: "Only one who is immensely strong in mind and will can harness the power of the Star Forge without suffering the Rakatan's fate; becoming insane with hate and killing each other off in civil war. The Star Forge killed every Sith besides Revan and Malak, and hundreds tried.

Don't get me wrong, I think Malak would win barely, but I'm not all too sure of that.

Originally posted by Fishy
Against those that he could yes, but there had to be Jedi around that cuold not be killed like that, that could not be hunted down and executed. Jedi that were on the front line of the wars. Malak would have fought them.

Erm...Atton in KotoR 2 said that was exactly what he did: Hunting down Jedi and executing them.



Who would be able to fight through an army of normal soldiers / Dark Jedi and Sith troops to challenge Malak ? Even if somebody managed to do so on a battlefield this can't be called "duel" anymore.



What masters ? We have 12 people on the KotoR times council. 5 of them are still alive in KotoR 2 times and we know that Vandar was killed on Katarr. So they could at max have 6 no-name-Jedi Masters on their side and we don't know if some of them even tried to control the SF.



No what does this matter ? Of course Malak would cream Anakin and Obi-Wan but as easy as Dooku did it ? And where is the difference of Dooku not able to defeat Yoda and Malak not able to defeat Revan ?



Where ?



Nothing Dooku can't do if he has to.



What powerful people ? The maximum would be that Malak fought 6 Jedi Council members and all the rest of his opponents had to be below that level. And Malak didn't manage to kill Kavar. So what makes you sure that he can beat Dooku who seems to be more experienced than Kavar, better with a lightsaber and had 13 years of Sith training ?

And you don't see where Dooku has a chance ?

- he has gone through 8 decades of force and lightsaber training where Malak had 3 including 13 years of practice in Sith techniques where Malak had 6.
- he is a legendary duelist just like Malak and mastered the best form for lightsaber to lightsaber combat.

Now what you do is rating 6 years of war experience higher than 3 years of war experience + 5 decades of lightsaber / force practice. And this is what I don't get.

Another thing for all you kiddies out there...


Just because Malak is an "Classic/Ancient/Old sith Lord" does not mean Dooku cannot put him down.

I vote for Dooku. Too experienced for Malak.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Erm...Atton in KotoR 2 said that was exactly what he did: Hunting down Jedi and executing them.

Like I said, not all of them could have been hunted down, its impossible to kill them all, and if you listen to how Atton hunted them down you would realise that it takes time before he kills them. A lot of them would have had to have died on the battlefield, the elite team of Jedi Killers couldn't have done it all.



Far from because Malak would logically do the same, it happened throughout every culture in all ages, why would it not happen in Star Wars? If its possible there its possible.



No we don't know if they tried, we know the most powerful tried however and they all failed. Bastila says so in the Holocron. Now some of these Masters would have to be with the most powerful. Of course they could have died already, but I don't know.



There is no real difference, Malak lost from Revan Dooku lost from Yoda well he would have if he didn't run away. It hardly matters, all I am saying is that the only real challenge Dooku had since he turned dark was Yoda and he lost that.





All of Kotor, front line general, Legendary duellist, great fighter, incredibly powerful, the Star Forge, he was second in command. Its like saying Ragnos never fought anybody. Possible but so unlikely that it makes me laugh.



We don't know that, now do we. I haven't seen Dooku use lightning that killed somebody on the other hand maybe they were really weak padawans, the fact is that Malak could use the force everybit as well as Dooku from what we have seen.



Why would they have to be weaker then the Council Members? People that are not in the council can be more powerful then people that are, especially after years of war.



Not just 6 years of war, but 6 years of Frontline wars against a lot of opponents. The Clone wars were not as hard as many other wars, especially not for Jedi. How many Jedi do we know of that Dooku fought? Or how much would you guess, Dooku doesn't seem like a front line general so even an estimated guess would keep it at a low number. With Malak I would guess a lot higher. Malak knows more about fighting in real life then Dooku does.

Originally posted by Fishy
Like I said, not all of them could have been hunted down, its impossible to kill them all, and if you listen to how Atton hunted them down you would realise that it takes time before he kills them. A lot of them would have had to have died on the battlefield, the elite team of Jedi Killers couldn't have done it all.

It's also nearly impossible that many Jedi would come close to Malak (on a battle field or out of it) when Malak had thousands of Sith / Dark Jedi running around him. And if somebody managed to do that he had to fight through all this troops before being able to attack Malak - that's not what I would call "duel".



Can you give me one historical example where a battle between two armies was deceided by the leader of army 1 defeating the leader of army 2 in a duel ?



You can also say that Revan was Malaks only "real challenge".



I haven't seen anybody ever using lightning that could "instakill" people. Dooku could kill somebody with his lightning (that is quite obvious) and I won't argue that Malak is on par with Dooku when it comes to force abilities. Still I don't believe that he can beat Dooku through using the force OR in a lightsaber duel while I think that Dooku might be good enough with a lightsaber to kill Malak. So I'd have to say Dooku would win this.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
It's also nearly impossible that many Jedi would come close to Malak (on a battle field or out of it) when Malak had thousands of Sith / Dark Jedi running around him. And if somebody managed to do that he had to fight through all this troops before being able to attack Malak - that's not what I would call "duel".

Look it happened in history, leaders looked for leaders. It was the way ground battles were fought. If Jedi and Sith fought each other then the weaker one's would force a path and the more powerful one's would go past them and take out or try to take out the weaker one's.

Also you would put your most powerful devision against their most powerful devision its just a standard thing to do, you make sure that the most powerful fight the most powerful, because both sides want to do it, it will work. And it may not be a duel but it would teach Malak how to fight.



No, but there are plenty of examples where the more powerful people tried to kill or capture the other more powerful people, just pick one random battle and there is a pretty big chance people did it like that. They were worth conquering killing capturing whatever the weaker one's were not worthy of the attention of the most powerful Jedi/Sith/Soldiers.




Fine with me, but that would mean that the Master that is seen as one of the best around at that time was nothing compared to Malak. Making Malak all that more powerful.



I don't think Malak is leagues above Dooku in either, but I do think he is slightly more powerful in both. You have argued tons of times that battlefield experience is more important then training experience, and Malak fought tougher enemy's then Dooku did in more years of war.

Originally posted by Fishy
Like I said, not all of them could have been hunted down, its impossible to kill them all, and if you listen to how Atton hunted them down you would realise that it takes time before he kills them. A lot of them would have had to have died on the battlefield, the elite team of Jedi Killers couldn't have done it all.



Far from because Malak would logically do the same, it happened throughout every culture in all ages, why would it not happen in Star Wars? If its possible there its possible.



No we don't know if they tried, we know the most powerful tried however and they all failed. Bastila says so in the Holocron. Now some of these Masters would have to be with the most powerful. Of course they could have died already, but I don't know.



There is no real difference, Malak lost from Revan Dooku lost from Yoda well he would have if he didn't run away. It hardly matters, all I am saying is that the only real challenge Dooku had since he turned dark was Yoda and he lost that.





All of Kotor, front line general, Legendary duellist, great fighter, incredibly powerful, the Star Forge, he was second in command. Its like saying Ragnos never fought anybody. Possible but so unlikely that it makes me laugh.



We don't know that, now do we. I haven't seen Dooku use lightning that killed somebody on the other hand maybe they were really weak padawans, the fact is that Malak could use the force everybit as well as Dooku from what we have seen.



Why would they have to be weaker then the Council Members? People that are not in the council can be more powerful then people that are, especially after years of war.



Not just 6 years of war, but 6 years of Frontline wars against a lot of opponents. The Clone wars were not as hard as many other wars, especially not for Jedi. How many Jedi do we know of that Dooku fought? Or how much would you guess, Dooku doesn't seem like a front line general so even an estimated guess would keep it at a low number. With Malak I would guess a lot higher. Malak knows more about fighting in real life then Dooku does.

A few things.

First off, the "masters" mentioned in Bastila's holocron were, to my knowledge, never called masters at all, and if they were considered masters it is because they were the ones able to scrap to the top of the heap in the short Sith civil war that followed Revan's leave. This doesn't mean that they were particularly powerful or even on par with a jedi master. So it is best to not confuse the two.

Second, if you listen to the intro of KOTOR II, it says "We have hunted down and slain all the jedi" or something very close to that. The emphasis is that the majority of the Jedi were slain on the run. Meaning? They did not die in battle against Sith while Malak stood on some hilltop challenging those few stragglers who got close. The Jedi Order was hunted down and slain primarily by the stealth Force-feeding assassins under Sion and the beast that was Nihilus.

Third, Malak is perhaps more war seasoned, and I'm assuming he had access to Sith lord Dooku didn't; this topped with his great lightsaber and his formidable size and strength give him certain advantages. But Dooku could still defeat him, it just wouldn't be an easy fight at all.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
A few things.

First off, the "masters" mentioned in Bastila's holocron were, to my knowledge, never called masters at all, and if they were considered masters it is because they were the ones able to scrap to the top of the heap in the short Sith civil war that followed Revan's leave. This doesn't mean that they were particularly powerful or even on par with a jedi master. So it is best to not confuse the two.

Second, if you listen to the intro of KOTOR II, it says "We have hunted down and slain all the jedi" or something very close to that. The emphasis is that the majority of the Jedi were slain on the run. Meaning? They did not die in battle against Sith while Malak stood on some hilltop challenging those few stragglers who got close. The Jedi Order was hunted down and slain primarily by the stealth Force-feeding assassins under Sion and the beast that was Nihilus.

Third, Malak is perhaps more war seasoned, and I'm assuming he had access to Sith lord Dooku didn't; this topped with his great lightsaber and his formidable size and strength give him certain advantages. But Dooku could still defeat him, it just wouldn't be an easy fight at all.

I'm talking about the Jedi Masters that joined Malak and Revan and couldn't control the Star Forge, so the masters I am talking about are as powerful as the Jedi Masters, more powerful then most because one of them at least was a councillor.

Hunted down and slain, can be seen in many ways... Its clear that the Jedi were losing the war, so they were hunted down in that way. I guess it depends on how you look at it, but its pretty much impossible to hunt most of them down.

Now your argument about Nihilus? Nihilus wasn't around back then, well he was but he wasn't fighting he wasn't eating them that much is clear so he didn't kill any Jedi at all until after Malak his time.

And i'm not saying Dooku can't defeat him, well actually I did, but I didn't mean it like that. Dooku can defeat Malak, I just think Malak has better chances of winning.

Originally posted by Fishy
I'm talking about the Jedi Masters that joined Malak and Revan and couldn't control the Star Forge, so the masters I am talking about are as powerful as the Jedi Masters, more powerful then most because one of them at least was a councillor.

Hunted down and slain, can be seen in many ways... Its clear that the Jedi were losing the war, so they were hunted down in that way. I guess it depends on how you look at it, but its pretty much impossible to hunt most of them down.

Now your argument about Nihilus? Nihilus wasn't around back then, well he was but he wasn't fighting he wasn't eating them that much is clear so he didn't kill any Jedi at all until after Malak his time.

And i'm not saying Dooku can't defeat him, well actually I did, but I didn't mean it like that. Dooku can defeat Malak, I just think Malak has better chances of winning.

But we have no evidence of such masters trying before the Jedi Civil War, since Revan was in power, and then it went to Malak. As for after the defeat of Malak, the only people Bastila refers to are Sith who managed to survive and make it to Korriban or who were (And this is perhaps the majority) already there at the academy. Now, we have no way at all of knowing the level of knowledge and power of these individuals (Who were, by the sounds of it, the riffraff who didn't get in Revan's way) nor do we know if there were any jedi masters of any potency in the group. However, we can infer that Sion was amongst the group (Since he is said to be among the Jedi who survived the hell on Korriban and made it offplanet) but we have no way of knowing whether or not he ever tried to control the Star Forge. My guess is (considering he's alive five years later) no.

(Edit: About paragraph two) Presumably, yes. But remember, Nihilus and SIon's crew had unusual methods of tracking down the jedi. ONly those who hid in special places were effectively hidden. As Atton says, those whoweren't killed in the Jedi Civil War itself switched off lightsabers a long time ago, so we can say that the majority of jedi were slain since non-jedi faded from view (and were likely killed anyways)

Nihilus came into being AFTER Malachov V. He was a factor in the killing of jedi AFTER (at the very least) the defeat of Malak because obviously he drove the jedi to convene on Katarr and then destroyed them.

And for the last point, I agree. Dooku certainly has much more experience behind him, but Malak has a few things which can work in his favor. And from what we see via FMV and cutscenes, Malak does have a rather powerful command of the Force, which may or may not give him standing against Dooku.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
But we have no evidence of such masters trying before the Jedi Civil War, since Revan was in power, and then it went to Malak. As for after the defeat of Malak, the only people Bastila refers to are Sith who managed to survive and make it to Korriban or who were (And this is perhaps the majority) already there at the academy. Now, we have no way at all of knowing the level of knowledge and power of these individuals (Who were, by the sounds of it, the riffraff who didn't get in Revan's way) nor do we know if there were any jedi masters of any potency in the group. However, we can infer that Sion was amongst the group (Since he is said to be among the Jedi who survived the hell on Korriban and made it offplanet) but we have no way of knowing whether or not he ever tried to control the Star Forge. My guess is (considering he's alive five years later) no.

(Edit: About paragraph two) Presumably, yes. But remember, Nihilus and SIon's crew had unusual methods of tracking down the jedi. ONly those who hid in special places were effectively hidden. As Atton says, those whoweren't killed in the Jedi Civil War itself switched off lightsabers a long time ago, so we can say that the majority of jedi were slain since non-jedi faded from view (and were likely killed anyways)

Nihilus came into being AFTER Malachov V. He was a factor in the killing of jedi AFTER (at the very least) the defeat of Malak because obviously he drove the jedi to convene on Katarr and then destroyed them.

And for the last point, I agree. Dooku certainly has much more experience behind him, but Malak has a few things which can work in his favor. And from what we see via FMV and cutscenes, Malak does have a rather powerful command of the Force, which may or may not give him standing against Dooku.

Sion lives so he didn't try that much is certain, but you brought up a pretty good point there. The most powerful tried, Sion didn't try. And Sion sure as hell isn't weak. He could have been weaker years earlier, but not all that much weaker becuase he couldn't have put his body back together if he was. So if Sion didn't even try, that must mean something.

Nihilus came after Malachor V but didn't do anything until after Malak, you would have known about in Kotor if he did. The Jedi council would have contacted you about it, or would have launched a new war immediately, something would have happened. And you probably would have noticed on your own anyways.

Like I already said, slain can be seen in many different ways. If Malak faces a Jedi and that Jedi is weak he slays him easily too. If Atton does it through tricks he slays him too, its just how you look at it. Seeing as it was a war, I prefer to think that many of them died on the battlefield.

And a great many did die on the battlefield, but the real danger (As the KOTOR council tells you) was from people being captured or turned. And then you get the Sith side from Atton, who tells you that they used to kill and capture jedi and try to turn them or eliminate them. So this leads me to believe that the biggest threat to the jedi was not really the war (as the Republic was getting bent over the barrel on that one) but was the shadow war waged by the new sith.

And about Sion: he wasn't weak, I don't think. But he obviously thought he was weaker than Revan. Not the exile, but Revan.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
And a great many did die on the battlefield, but the real danger (As the KOTOR council tells you) was from people being captured or turned. And then you get the Sith side from Atton, who tells you that they used to kill and capture jedi and try to turn them or eliminate them. So this leads me to believe that the biggest threat to the jedi was not really the war (as the Republic was getting bent over the barrel on that one) but was the shadow war waged by the new sith.

I doubt it, listen to Bastila. Whats more effective then turning your enemy against his allies, or whatever she says.

Killing a Jedi sucks, but when that Jedi turns Dark... Now that hurts badly...

And yeah Sion wasn't weak, which means that the one's that tried weren't weak either, because by all logical standards they would have to be more powerful then Sion. And none of them could control the Star Forge, Malak could so he is more powerful then people who are more powerful then Sion. Who is pretty good himself.

Originally posted by Fishy
I doubt it, listen to Bastila. Whats more effective then turning your enemy against his allies, or whatever she says.

Killing a Jedi sucks, but when that Jedi turns Dark... Now that hurts badly...

And yeah Sion wasn't weak, which means that the one's that tried weren't weak either, because by all logical standards they would have to be more powerful then Sion. And none of them could control the Star Forge, Malak could so he is more powerful then people who are more powerful then Sion. Who is pretty good himself.

On that last part, not neccessarily true. Sion could have very well heeded Bastila's advice out of fear and not tried to use the Star Forge, and then when other, weaker Sith tried and died, he thought better of it and find a way off planet.

To say that Sion didn't (apparently) try to use the Star Forge and thus he was weaker than those who tried and died doesn't follow. Back to my main point, we have no way of knowing or even of infering the power of the people who did try, only that they were obviously under the requirements for the Star Forge. And again, we have no proof that Revan didn't sabotage it in some way so that it would kill people. I mean, the guy was a genius... why would he just leave the Star Forge around when he knew of all people how dangerous it was?

If he would have sabotaged the Star Forge he would have made it so that either he could use it or nobody. There is no reason he would allow Malak to use it. I mean once Malak died that apprentice would have to take over. Revan would effectively have destroyed the star forge after just two people used it. It would be incredibly stupid, especially if he wanted an empire to last.

If he didn't then he should have made it so that only he could use it. Revan would have no reason to grant the power to Malak, he was the Sith Lord Malak was the apprentice why would he allow Malak to use it?

On the Sion thing, well it seems logical to me. It doesn't look to me like Sion has much to fear or ever had, he just wants to do something maybe revenge? Why would he not try everything he can to become more powerful. If he fails then he fails but shit happens, if he succeeds then he will rule. Sion seems like one that would try it, unless of course he knew he couldn't.

Alright, two things:

On Revan sabotaging the Star Forge, I mean this is AFTER the defeat of Malak, since after that point no one can control it, obviously. They all die. And Revan himself stopped using the Star Forge for a reason, and that reason was robably he knew what happened to the Ratakan empire who used it previously, and he wasn't ready for that kinda self pwnage.

On Sion, Sion was obviously jealous of and inferior to Revan as he says himself. Imagine him back then, when he was not as powerful as he was in KOTOR II, five years later... If Bastila, the second in command, told everyone (as she says) not to try and control the Star Forge on Revan's orders, do you think he is likely to be the first person to try? And assuming he wasn't the first person to try, do you think he would still be willing to try after this point? Perhaps, but most likely not. He could achieve his goals in other ways, and eventually, he did.

Like I said. This is a hard damn fight. Dooku is the better duelist. His style was around in Malak's time, and Dooku is what? Twice Malak's age? I think Dooku would win. But not by much.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Alright, two things:

On Revan sabotaging the Star Forge, I mean this is AFTER the defeat of Malak, since after that point no one can control it, obviously. They all die. And Revan himself stopped using the Star Forge for a reason, and that reason was robably he knew what happened to the Ratakan empire who used it previously, and he wasn't ready for that kinda self pwnage.

On Sion, Sion was obviously jealous of and inferior to Revan as he says himself. Imagine him back then, when he was not as powerful as he was in KOTOR II, five years later... If Bastila, the second in command, told everyone (as she says) not to try and control the Star Forge on Revan's orders, do you think he is likely to be the first person to try? And assuming he wasn't the first person to try, do you think he would still be willing to try after this point? Perhaps, but most likely not. He could achieve his goals in other ways, and eventually, he did.

Hmm you could be right there, Revan could have sabotaged the Star Forge, but there is absolutely no evidence for that, its some heavy speculation.

On Sion, well he might have tried if he was more powerful then the first one that tried. If he was not of course he wouldn't, I don't see why he wouldn't if he was more powerful. Really he has no real reason to stay away from the Star Forge if he was the most powerful around, he could always try. It would be worth it, its the only way he could ever trully rule.

malak was one of the first sith ..... he may have less expierience that way..the dark side is a new thing at this time and dooku has studied both sides longer than malak did malak was new to the force when he drove away the mandalorians from the temple also he changed his view on the force without considering the possibilities...but dooku had given much thought to the dark and light side and spent many many years working for both sides

malak however was never a master of the force i cant remeber if he was a knight or still a padawan...anyway malak has a whole new undiscovered side of the force to work with ...unlike dooku who's used to all fo the force

my vote ....dooku

Originally posted by DarthMaul9123
malak was one of the first sith ..... he may have less expierience that way..the dark side is a new thing at this time and dooku has studied both sides longer than malak did malak was new to the force when he drove away the mandalorians from the temple also he changed his view on the force without considering the possibilities...but dooku had given much thought to the dark and light side and spent many many years working for both sides

Malak was not one of the first Sith, he was a late ancient one.. Still the Dark Side had been around and fought by the Jedi for more then a thousand years, if anything the Sith of that time would know a hell of a lot more about the Dark Side then the Sith of Dooku his time, because they were still used to battles and most of it was still in tact.

Malak was also a promosing young Knight when he went to join the Republic against the Mandelorians. He had many years of training already, yeah not as much as Dooku but still a reasonable amount.

in KOTOR it sayes revan was the first sith plus malak was his apprentace and that is not unsupported bs

Originally posted by DarthMaul9123
in KOTOR it sayes revan was the first sith plus malak was his apprentace and that is not unsupported bs

Erm...

The Sith (as dark siders) were around from 25,000 years before ANH on...

And Revan wasn't the first Sith:

Ajunta Pall (20,000+ years before ANH)
Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh (5,000 years before ANH)
Freedon Nadd (4,400 years before ANH)
Exar Kun, Ulic Quel-Droma, Satal and Aleema Keeto (4,000 years before ANH)
Tulak Hord (????)

All of them were Sith before Malak and Revan were around so they can't be the first.

My advice: pay attention to the posts around here, and read up more.

Actually I think Dooku could curbstomp Malak and let me try and list off a couple of reasons.

1) Dooku is at least 50 years older than Malak giving him a huge advantage in experience.

2) Due to his unparalled experience in Makashi he could tire Malak out rather easily and kill him.

3) Also I no longer consider Malak to be anywhere near Dooku in force power due to his experience.

1) Malak fought years of war, against Jedi Killers and then Jedi.. Dooku did not. Dooku may be older but he could not easily defeat Mace if at all. And Mace was definitly younger then Dooku. So this means nothing.

2) Ah yes, i'm sure that in a time where Malak fought many lightsaber users he never managed to find a weakness in Makashi or fought Makashi users before. The style is not unbeatable... And Malak is a lightsaber prodigy.

3) unsupported bias.. Like most here really.

Actually I think Dooku could curbstomp Malak and let me try and list off a couple of reasons.

Please do. I'm bored this time of day.


1) Dooku is at least 50 years older than Malak giving him a huge advantage in experience.

Unfortunately, as is proved many times in Star Wars (Kun versus Vodo, Sidious versus Yoda, etc.) experience isn't -that- huge of an advantage. Malak arguably has a lot more wartime experience, when you consider that Dooku was in one named conflict before the Clone Wars, and during neither of those was Dooku fighting through Mandalorians or jedi knights in legion.

While I'd love to think that Dooku was the best duellist since Kun because of his meticulous dedication to Form II, he was not as tried in battle as was Malak.


2) Due to his unparalled experience in Makashi he could tire Malak out rather easily and kill him.

Unparalleled? He's the only master in his time. This isn't "of all time". And obviously Dooku wasn't able to pull this "tire them out" trick with Anakin, Yoda, or Sidious.


3) Also I no longer consider Malak to be anywhere near Dooku in force power due to his experience.

This relates to point one, and is moot since your opinion means literally nothing to the rest of us unless it's supported with proof or at the very least- logic. If experience and Form II mastery are the things you're judging your decision off of, you need to look deeper into it. Experience has not been the ultimate determination of battle outcomes. If anything in SW history, younger people tend to win battles over older, more experienced enemies. Not all the time, but surprisingly a lot. And Form II is rare and besides Dooku, unmastered in the PT times, but it is not rare nor unmastered in Malak's time. If anything, it would probably be having a resurgence of popularity since the Sith had reappeared.

Just one thing I'd like to mention: Dooku had the respect of the Mandos then AND led the team that exterminated them...he also subdued DURGE into submission

Malak never saw a war till the Mandalorian bit, just adding my two cents

True. To be honest, it could very easily go either way. But I think Malak has rage, skill, and length among other things to offset the experience level.

Not to mention that Malak also had the respect from the Mandelorians, just secondary to the respect they gave Revan because Revan was the first to join and the one in charge. Still Malak was respected and feared by them as well...

And yes Dooku might stand a chance against Malak, I would not see it past him. But I do think that Malak is superior to Dooku in most fields, if only by small margins.

Dooku does have refinement to counter pure rage and has never lacked for skill. He was also respected by and Mandalorians fought under him

Dooku has the skill yes... But its not going to be easy.. If he can do it all, i'd put my money on Malak. And I doubt Malak would actually fight with pure rage, a lot unless it gives him strength. He was very calm as a Jedi and even as a Sith Lord he gave me the impression of being calm and knowing what he was doing. Cruel as hell but still calm, he would not let his anger overcome him.

Dooku wasn't exactly known for his psychotic laughing fits himself...

I know.... Dooku is a calm fighter too, I never claimed otherwise. I was just going against the claims that Malak would have things like that.