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Fight takes place in room where Dooku fights Anakin, in beginning of Ep.III.

Dooku comes out, like he did in movie, but instead of saying, "Your swords please." and some other stuff after that. He says, "Palpatine is really the Sith Lord Darth Sidious! Get away from him!" Obi Wan and Anakin are confused at first, stare at Palpatine for a few seconds and then turn back and say, "We don't believe you Dooku." As you can imagine, Palpatine has a sort of a smirk, for the Jedi not believing him. Obi Wan and Anakin edge closer to Dooku, and Dooku begins stepping back,"You dont know what your doing, I only became his apprentice so I could find out his plans, what I told you on Geonosis wasn't a lie Obi Wan, I really do wish to destroy the Sith, but if I had attacked Sidious alone, I would have most assuredly lost. I asked for your help because of our link to Qui Gon. You MUST believe me."

After this, Obi Wan stares back at Palpatine, while Anakin stays looking at Dooku. Sidious begins to sense the conflict within Obi Wan, and uses the force to move his saber a little closer to his hand just in case. Obi Wan turns back to Dooku,"Why not just surrender, if you are telling the truth, then we will have the entire jedi order waiting to confront him on Courusant." "No! We must destroy him now, if he gets to Coursant, and even has a few hours in his office, he will activate Order 66 within the Clones. That order is for them to destroy the Jedi." Palpatine then begins to sense that Obi Wan is beginning to agree with Dooku, although he still doesnt fully trust him.

Palpatine/Sidious begins to contemplate killing Obi Wan and Anakin while their backs are turned then destroy Dooku, losing Anakin will be a serious loss, but if it means surviving and being able to pass on the sith legacy, it would need to be done. Besides, there are other force users out there, although none would have been as powerful as Anakin.

After several tense moments of edging Dooku back up the stairs, he suddenly leaps and lands abit behind Obi Wan, in a saber lock with Sids.

Sids had intended to kill Obi and Anakin without incident, but Dooku caught him before he was able to do it. Anakin and Obi Wan take this as a sign that Dooku wasnt lying, and they rally behind him.

Sorry, ran outta space.

lets see this, anakin has more raw power extremely good saber technique more so then obi

dooku is quite possibly the greatest swordsman in the PT excluding yoda who was far superior to sids.

obi was damn awesome being extremely wise and powerful.

Sids is an overated coward who gets rocked.

Darth Frobo tends to exaggerate things - though I will agree with the part on Dooku. Sidious could take Obi-Wan and Anakin, definately, I think. But Dooku is a saber heavyweight. It is conceivable to declare that his saber skills are beyond Sidious's - it makes sense. Sidious's mastery of the Force is beyond all three of them - but the saber skills are important.

In the end - Sidious is killed. Dooku may very well be the only surviver.

I must say though. Why make this thread? Sidious - overall - is only a few inches more powerful than Dooku. Why add the others?

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
I must say though. Why make this thread? Sidious - overall - is only a few inches more powerful than Dooku. Why add the others?

Because I wondered what would have happened in the fight if it had gone down like that.

I dunno. This fight seems odd to me. If Dooku can't reach Obi-Wan or Anakin in time - they will die. Sidious is the greater duelist compared to those two - and he obviously is the most powerful Force user in the room. However, he can't take Dooku, Obi-Wan, and Anakin at the same time, I think. Especially knowing Obi-Wan and Anakin fight very well as a team.

Sidious loses in the end. But it's hard to say how.

while he's better then all of them individually remember that anakin and obi are a great team and are decorated war heroes who both became very powerful jedi masters, and dooku is a better swordsman.

that being said if it comes down to force powers sidious wins.

I wouldnt say its total victory for the Jedi. Sids could very well just kill him right there and then when they break their lock. Or he could just force push him back, kill Anakin and Obi then obliterate Dooku.

No. As much as I am a Sidious fan and I do recognize that he is the most powerful individual in this duel - he would, in my opinion fall in the end. Dooku is conceivably - and rightly so - the better duelist. Obi-Wan and Anakin have their little advantages but they work exceptionally as a team.

Sidious may or may not kill Obi-Wan and Anakin. But I doubt he'd kill Dooku, simply because it would take too much time and that might allow Obi-Wan or Anakin - or both - to tip the odds.

Sidious loses. He may take Anakin or Obi-Wan with him, but I think Dooku will survive this. He may very well be the only one who does.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
I dunno. This fight seems odd to me. If Dooku can't reach Obi-Wan or Anakin in time - they will die. Sidious is the greater duelist compared to those two - and he obviously is the most powerful Force user in the room. However, he can't take Dooku, Obi-Wan, and Anakin at the same time, I think. Especially knowing Obi-Wan and Anakin fight very well as a team.

Sidious loses in the end. But it's hard to say how.

Read the story a little closer, Dooku jumps over Obi and Anakin, to stop a blow from Sids, who was gonna kill Obi.

a little off topic, but was this a good vs?

Not really. It seems to be a bit one sided. Individually, Sidious is the best here. But Dooku is one HELL of a Sith Lord - and Sidious is only a few inches better than he is. Obi-Wan and Anakin can range from mere distractions - or a severe threat - should circumstances favor them.

Dooku alone could take Sidious so throw in Anakin and Obi-Wan and you have a dead Emperor but Anakin and/or Obi-Wan might get killed.

No. I really doubt Count Dooku would defeat Sidious. He'd give him hell, but no. In the end - I believe - Sidious would defeat him through his superior Force connection, Raw power, and Force mastery.

In a saber duel which is probably what would happen dooku pwns.

In a lightsaber duel. People often admit that Sidious has the advantage in Force-powers, but also claim that "Dooku would never let a Force battle happen". If there is anyone adept at manipulating events - yes, including battles - it is Sidious. Sidious might not let Dooku engage him in a lightsaber duel. Ever think about that?

He might employ the same tactics he used with Yoda. In such a case, Sidious is guarenteed victory.

Errr....

Dooku alone is too much for Sidious in a lightsaber duel. Throwing in Anakin and Obi-Wan is total overkill. And who should Sidious kill ?

He can't hold long time against Anakin because Anakins sheer physical strength would be too much for Sidious to handle.

He is probably not able to get through Obi-Wans defences since he won't be able to use his force powers here.

And Dooku - as I said - would be able to kill him in a lightsaber fight on his own.

Conclusion: Sidious gets his ass kicked badly.

Tsk. A mediocre thread, to say the least.

Pardon, but is there some place that states Sidious can't use his Force powers? His mastery of the Force is greater than Dooku's, Obi-Wan's, or Anakin's. He's leagues above the latter two - and above even Dooku's.

1. Yoda told Obi-Wan, "strong enough to defeat Sidious, you are not." So no, Nai. Sidious would probably own Obi-Wan. Which means he could own Anakin.

2. Sidious would lose, indeed. But he would probably take one or two with him.

Not if he ran, and "crumpled" the ship around him.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Pardon, but is there some place that states Sidious can't use his Force powers? His mastery of the Force is greater than Dooku's, Obi-Wan's, or Anakin's. He's leagues above the latter two - and above even Dooku's.

Still he can't focus on using his force powers while 3 people with lightsaber skills like that start fighting him. He would raise his hand to do something and have it cut off in the next moment.



What a great interpretation. Obi-Wan was not strong enough to defeat Sidious, right. That doesn't mean that Sidious is strong enough to defeat Obi-Wan. Think about it.



No he won't because he won't survive this for more than 30 seconds.

Sids is...

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Still he can't focus on using his force powers while 3 people with lightsaber skills like that start fighting him. He would raise his hand to do something and have it cut off in the next moment.



What a great interpretation. Obi-Wan was not strong enough to defeat Sidious, right. That doesn't mean that Sidious is strong enough to defeat Obi-Wan. Think about it.



No he won't because he won't survive this for more than 30 seconds.

1. Sidious can be very quick when using the Force - as we saw with his battle with Yoda. According to you, Sidious's hands suddenly sprung up and "caught Yoda" off guard. If he can do that to Yoda, he can sure as hell do it to Anakin, Obi-Wan, and possibly even Dooku. So don't even start.

2. What the hell? Obi-Wan wanted to go off gun-ho and attack the Emperor. Yoda told him he wasn't strong enough to defeat Palpatine. You're drawing straws here, Nai. Facts and that particular statement proves that Obi-Wan would not defeat Sidious - otherwise Yoda would have let him go off and fight him. You're trying to make Sidious look bad by saying Obi-Wan could beat him. Guess what, Nai. Yoda himself said he wasn't capable of doing it.

3. Like I said. I believe Sidious would lose. But Dooku himself couldn't beat him and neither could Obi-Wan or Anakin (by themselves) or individually. Dooku and he are almost matched - with Dooku being the flat-out better duelist and Sidious being flat-out better with the Force. In this particular duel, as I told the maker of this thread, Sidious would NOT win. But against Dooku or Obi-Wan and Anakin, he could win. It would be hard for him to beat Dooku, but I do believe he could do it.

So stop trying to make Sidious look weak. He was Dooku's master, and if anything - Dooku was afraid of Sidious (Dark Rendezvous). One must wonder why? And you, who often discredit Sidious's manipulation skills - ought not to bank it as the cause of Dooku being scared. Dooku is awesome and I defend him often. But you're being biased. Very biased.

take away obiwan and there wont be casualties

I dunno. Obi-Wan is skilled. And so is Anakin. As a team, they work extremely will. No, if anyone slays Sidious in this duel, it would be Dooku. He's the only one close to match Sidious's power and skill. Those two would be distractions. If I had to bet on who would land the killing blow - Count Dooku has my bet.

but obiwan is the worst one there

That's a fool's logic. He and Anakin are nothing if not even, maybe with Obi-Wan in superior. And by taking away someone who is at Anakin's level, you merely increase the chance of death. Use your head.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
1. Sidious can be very quick when using the Force - as we saw with his battle with Yoda. According to you, Sidious's hands suddenly sprung up and "caught Yoda" off guard. If he can do that to Yoda, he can sure as hell do it to Anakin, Obi-Wan, and possibly even Dooku. So don't even start.

Yes. He can take one of them off guard with a single blast which wouldn't kill him and then get cut into pieces by the other two. Now...that would be great. lol.



Would you please think before replying. I only said that if Obi-Wan is not strong enough to defeat Sidious that does not automatically mean that Sidious is strong enough to defeat Obi-Wan. Got it now ?



Dooku can kill Sidious. I don't want this discussion again. Dooku would kill him on his own so it doesn't matter who else you throw in.



I am biased ? Great. Have a look at the facts. Sidious lost in a lightsaber duel to somebody that is inferior to Dooku when it comes to force powers and lightsaber skills (Mace Windu) in less than 30 seconds. This is a fact. And still you believe that he can take Dooku in a fair fight ? You're really funny.

What did Sidious ever do in a fight except catching people off guard / surprising them ? When he doesn't have an advantage he loses. Seen against Mace. Same would happen in a fair fight vs Yoda or Dooku.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Yes. He can take one of them off guard with a single blast which wouldn't kill him and then get cut into pieces by the other two. Now...that would be great. lol.



Would you please think before replying. I only said that if Obi-Wan is not strong enough to defeat Sidious that does not automatically mean that Sidious is strong enough to defeat Obi-Wan. Got it now ?



Dooku can kill Sidious. I don't want this discussion again. Dooku would kill him on his own so it doesn't matter who else you throw in.



I am biased ? Great. Have a look at the facts. Sidious lost in a lightsaber duel to somebody that is inferior to Dooku when it comes to force powers and lightsaber skills (Mace Windu) in less than 30 seconds. This is a fact. And still you believe that he can take Dooku in a fair fight ? You're really funny.

What did Sidious ever do in a fight except catching people off guard / surprising them ? When he doesn't have an advantage he loses. Seen against Mace. Same would happen in a fair fight vs Yoda or Dooku.

First and foremost, Nai, I said Sidious would lose. But not to the pathetic degree your making it out to be.

1. No. Obi-Wan and Anakin combined don't measure up to Yoda. Like I said, Dooku is the only legitimate threat here - the others are mere distractions. They stand no chance against Sidious without Dooku, as much as you'd like to believe otherwise.

2. No. It means Sidious CAN kill Obi-Wan - otherwise Yoda would have sent him after Sidious. Yoda said he couldn't defeat Sidious. You have no proof to state that Sidious could NOT kill Obi-Wan. Sidious is easily the most powerful practitioner of the Force in the PT movies (excluding Yoda). So don't even try to make it sound otherwise, Nai.

3. Yes Nai. It's conceivable that anyone can kill anyone, given the right circumstances. If Dooku managed to isolate Sidious and negate his superior Force-powers, Dooku could outfight him in a duel. But there is no definate or concrete path that says Dooku will. Sidious was the master. Dooku was not. Sidious clouded the Jedi's perception using the Force. Dooku did not. Sidious's foresight was unrivaled in the movies. Dooku expressed little of this. Sidious has the greater Force powers, and Dooku has the superior dueling ability. So, if Dooku manages to outmaneuver Sidious and eliminate his master's superior Force ability, he might win. But on his own, it's not guarenteed.

4. More of this "catching off guard" crap. Alright. If Sidious caught the Jedi Masters off guard, then I suppose Mace did the same thing when he kicked Sidious's lightsaber away. I suppose Dooku caught Anakin off guard when he severed his arm. Get my drift? Mace managed to outfight him. As for the others, Palpatine simply over powered them. They were prepared to fight him Nai. So stop making it like he caught them napping.

Dooku on his own would probably pull it off with the war heroes it seems a bit overkill...

this is too easy for some jedi though sids can take this

The fight would start with Sidious making the first move. Now, Sidious is stronger than any of the others, but not by much. He does, however, appear to be good at fighting multiple opponents at once. He'd fight hard but be ultimately doomed. Like I said, he is powerful, so I think there would be casualties, no deaths but injuries. I'll say Obi-Wan gets the injuries. He fights horribly when there are other people fighting alongside him and seems to ghet injured. Maybe just a cut arm or something, nothing to horrible.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
1. No. Obi-Wan and Anakin combined don't measure up to Yoda. Like I said, Dooku is the only legitimate threat here - the others are mere distractions. They stand no chance against Sidious without Dooku, as much as you'd like to believe otherwise.

Your a goddamn Sidious fanboy. Anakin and Obi-Wan as a duo would kick Sidious ass. Sidious might be some nice force user but he isn't the master duellist you think he is. And - unlike Obi-Wan and Anakin - he neither participated in real battles nor had much time for training lightsaber combat.



What a logic. Sidious needs to be defeated. Obi-Wan can't do this. So Yoda wouldn't send Obi-Wan because he wouldn't be able to do what is needed. So you have no proof that Sidious can kill Obi-Wan. And what the hell does the force do in that ? Only thing Sidious can do is use force lightning and we all know that Obi-Wan is able to deflect it with his lightsaber.



Man. This is getting boring. Sidious has only slightly more force power compared to Dooku. Get it. And your points are - as always - great.

Sidious was the master. I explained that a dozen of times.
Sidious clouded the Jedi's perception - lol. How should Dooku have done that ? All knew he was a Jedi.
And Sidious foresight is so unrivaled that he:
- didn't know Yoda survived the Jedi Purge
- didn't know that Yoda was coming
- didn't know Mace would beat him
- didn't know that Anakin would be in danger on Mustafar
- didn't know that the rebels would be sucessful in ROTJ

Oh...what a great foresight.




Catching somebody off guard who is already fighting with you is not possible unless he's stupid. The Jedi masters weren't "in combat" same counts for Yoda. Anakin was in combat with Dooku so was Sidious with Mace.
If they were ready to fight him and he didn't surprise them he would have died.

This thread is crap! Most of us have already confirmed that Lightsaber-wise, Dooku can take Sidious.


Someone explain to me WHAT THE HELL SIDIOUS CAN DO AGAINST A MAKASHI MASTER/DUELIST MASTER, THE CHOSEN ONE AND ONE OF THE SMARTEST JEDI AROUND?


B!tch please!

- didn't know Yoda survived the Jedi Purge
- didn't know that Yoda was coming
- didn't know Mace would beat him
- didn't know that Anakin would be in danger on Mustafar
- didn't know that the rebels would be sucessful in ROTJ

Hmm... He didn't know that Vader would bench press him into a Generator, now did he?


That also adds a point that he didn't know that Vader would become good or help his son.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Your a goddamn Sidious fanboy. Anakin and Obi-Wan as a duo would kick Sidious ass. Sidious might be some nice force user but he isn't the master duellist you think he is. And - unlike Obi-Wan and Anakin - he neither participated in real battles nor had much time for training lightsaber combat.



What a logic. Sidious needs to be defeated. Obi-Wan can't do this. So Yoda wouldn't send Obi-Wan because he wouldn't be able to do what is needed. So you have no proof that Sidious can kill Obi-Wan. And what the hell does the force do in that ? Only thing Sidious can do is use force lightning and we all know that Obi-Wan is able to deflect it with his lightsaber.



Man. This is getting boring. Sidious has only slightly more force power compared to Dooku. Get it. And your points are - as always - great.

Sidious was the master. I explained that a dozen of times.
Sidious clouded the Jedi's perception - lol. How should Dooku have done that ? All knew he was a Jedi.
And Sidious foresight is so unrivaled that he:
- didn't know Yoda survived the Jedi Purge
- didn't know that Yoda was coming
- didn't know Mace would beat him
- didn't know that Anakin would be in danger on Mustafar
- didn't know that the rebels would be sucessful in ROTJ

Oh...what a great foresight.




Catching somebody off guard who is already fighting with you is not possible unless he's stupid. The Jedi masters weren't "in combat" same counts for Yoda. Anakin was in combat with Dooku so was Sidious with Mace.
If they were ready to fight him and he didn't surprise them he would have died.

Making excuses, Nai. It seems to be something you excell at.

1. You're a Dooku fanboy. Now, if you will look on various other threads - including this one - I frequently tell people when Sidious can be defeated. You, on the otherhand, believe otherwise, that I think Sidious can take all and destroy all. Explain to me THAT, oh mighty Nai.

2. Lol, you don't know. Sidious is superior in the Force against Obi-Wan and Anakin. He's good at "catching people off-guard". He'd outwit Anakin and simply overpower Obi-Wan. Sidious is more powerful than Obi-Wan, and YOU saying otherwise not only does not make sense, but it also shows your true colors and your disgusting little bias.

3. No, Nai. Count Dooku may be an exceptional duelist - but he lacks his master's Force mastery in full. Tell me where it has been hinted at that Dooku is capable of killing his master? Notice in Dark Rendezvous, Dooku is afraid to betray his master. So obviously, he fears Sidious. I wonder why. Oh...could it be Sidious is more powerful than he is?! Yeah, that might just do it.

4. Sidious's foresight - again, I love how you dodge the fact and try to not admit it that Sidious's ability to forsee the future was better than anyone elses - was greater than Yoda's and Dooku's. No, I NEVER said it was perfect. But Sidious used it to engineer the destruction of the Jedi Order, and takeover the galaxy. Which, I might add, endured all of Sidious's original mistakes and his overall objective was completed. Yoda and the Jedi failed. Sidious ruled, despite the flaws in his foresight. Get over it Nai. In Revenge of The Sith, The SITH (Sidious) won.

Now. I will repeat this again. Sidious DOES lose this duel. I said this EVERY SINGLE TIME. But he could take all three combatants individually and he could take Anakin and Obi-Wan - as a team. Like I said, Count Dooku is the main threat here. He IS almost at Sidious's power, but not quite there. But Obi-Wan and Anakin would serve their purpose. Either as distractions or legitimate threats. But if I had to bet who would land the killing blow, it would be Dooku.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Catching somebody off guard who is already fighting with you is not possible unless he's stupid. The Jedi masters weren't "in combat" same counts for Yoda. Anakin was in combat with Dooku so was Sidious with Mace.
If they were ready to fight him and he didn't surprise them he would have died.

Then I suppose from your explanation, Yoda is a complete fool. If Sidious did indeed catch him off guard, Yoda is apparently a fool and lacks the intellect to face such an opponent. I'm not saying this, however. You did.

Now. Note that the four Jedi Masters had their lightsabers drawn and ignited. So that means they were prepared for a fight. Now, you make it sound like Sidious flipped over the desk and was IMMEDIATELY on top of them.

When Sidious twirled over his desk, he landed right in front of it - and CHARGED the Jedi. They should've been prepared already, but if they weren't, the time for the charge SHOULD have prepared them enough. So don't give me that catching off guard crap, Nai. You're making excuses.

Sidious owned their asses. He outfought and overpowered them.

While you two are arguing, the bottom line is that palps is dead after this fight.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
2. Lol, you don't know. Sidious is superior in the Force against Obi-Wan and Anakin. He's good at "catching people off-guard". He'd outwit Anakin and simply overpower Obi-Wan. Sidious is more powerful than Obi-Wan, and YOU saying otherwise not only does not make sense, but it also shows your true colors and your disgusting little bias.

You still don't get it...and I won't explain it another time.



Mace is able to kill Sidious.
Dooku is better than Mace (force powers / lightsaber skill)
Now tell me again that Dooku can't kill Sidious - this is stupid.

For being close to Sidious when it comes to force powers: Both can use lightning and their lightning power doesn't seem to be different (if so than Dooku has the stronger one - going by what is seen in AOTC and ROTS). Where is your PROOF that Sidious is FAR superior to Dooku in force powers ?



Where ? He planned something. He said what - in his oppinion - will happen and if his plan worked that was "great foresight" ? I'd call that arrogance. Where did we ever see him using "foresight" ?



He used political manipulation and his planing ability. What has this to do with forsight. If I'm going to throw a stone through a window and tell you "This window will brake in 10 second and then a stone will fall to the ground" just to throw the stone 10 seconds later - do I have a great foresight ability than ?



He can't neither take Obi-Wan + Anakin (as a team) nor Dooku. Not in a straight fight. And now proof me wrong. You can't - and you can't because we never saw Sidious fighting fair except when he fights Mace which he lost in 30 seconds.

And to get extreme here. Mace defeated Sidious in 30 seconds. That means:

a) Dooku will take Sidious because he is stronger than Mace
b) Anakin will take Sidious because he had defeated Dooku
c) Obi-Wan will take Sidious because he had defeated Anakin

Stupid ? Yes. But well...that's at least kind of "proof" where you have only suggestions.

And buy yourself a cup of logic. Sidious "overpowering" and "outfighting" people ? First off: He killed 3 not 4 Jedi Masters. Number 4 defeated him in less than a minute. Second: Proof that the Jedi were focusing on fighting Sidious. Ups. Third: Proof that they were so much weaker force users / duellists compared to Mace / Yoda that Sidious could simply "overpower" and "outfight" them. Ups.

Hey, looks like I missed another DS versus NF battle. Just like to add this little factor:

Dooku's lightning (Which he strangely doesn't use against the duo in ROTS... could it be he was holding back?) is considerable when you consider he does it ONE HANDED. So I could argue that Dooku stalemated Yoda to a much greater degree than Sidious did (When you consider that Yoda actually reversed the flow of lightning back onto Sidious from a leaning position at point blank range) using ONLY ONE HAND!

So I guess by appearance, Dooku is mightier than his master.

Or is this where I become a fanboy for not supporting your claims, DS?

DS/NF debates are the best, I get to see one sided logic at its finest! Next time I want to see overkill, I'll go to the Comic Book Forum.

Like Onslaughter versus Mary Jane?

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Like Onslaughter versus Mary Jane?

Yeah, or Galactus vs. Random Cannon Fodder #2.

Wolverine versus that old lady that takes fifteen minutes to cross the intersection on her way to church every sunday is always a classic.

Haja... I mispelled Onslaught. Oops.

Or, my favourite, Dark Phoenix versus Rocky. What can a woman do to hurt the italian stallion? Anyway, Dooku & co take this.

I can't believe people argued that Rocky could take the Handmaiden? Those must be the same people who think Muhammed Ali can take Bruce Lee.

Here's a pick that I just happened to have.... honest...

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Hey, looks like I missed another DS versus NF battle. Just like to add this little factor:

Dooku's lightning (Which he strangely doesn't use against the duo in ROTS... could it be he was holding back?) is considerable when you consider he does it ONE HANDED. So I could argue that Dooku stalemated Yoda to a much greater degree than Sidious did (When you consider that Yoda actually reversed the flow of lightning back onto Sidious from a leaning position at point blank range) using ONLY ONE HAND!

So I guess by appearance, Dooku is mightier than his master.

Or is this where I become a fanboy for not supporting your claims, DS?

Lol whatever Janus. Whatever, I'm not gonna argue with you anymore or Nai. Think what you want about Sidious. But Dooku was his pet. His pawn. His tool. Dooku feared Sidious. You explain to me THAT. And it's amazing how he never tried to usurp Sidious's mantle. And you think it all through manipulation? Damn. I guess Sidious is smarter than what you give him credit for.

Secondly. Nai called me a fanboy. Ironically, I have stated many times that Sidious would end up dead and that Dooku would land the killing blow. But like I said. If you think Dooku is far superior to Sidious, go right ahead. But remember this.

1. Sidious was the master. Count Dooku was not.
2. Sidious used Count Dooku like a pawn.
3. Count Dooku feared betraying Sidious (according to Dark Rendezvous)
4. Sidious has a superior knowledge of the Force - that much is damn obvious.
5. Star Wars.com states that Sidious was the most powerful practitioner of the Force in modern times. The Republic vs Separatist war is to be considered modern times. But lemme guess. It's not canon or accurate, right?

Now. Of course I'm sure both you and Nai will excuse these and go on with your little fetish. But these are hard facts. Count Dooku never once tried to betray his master. And Count Dooku - one of the wealthiest beings in the galaxy, a Jedi Knight, a political idealist - bowed down and willingly served Sidious. Now, tell me. WHY.

If Count Dooku is better, then why the HELL serve Sidious? Lemme guess...because he felt like it? Or because he just got bored and wanted something to do?

You tell me, Janus.
6

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Lol whatever Janus. Whatever, I'm not gonna argue with you anymore or Nai. Think what you want about Sidious. But Dooku was his pet. His pawn. His tool. Dooku feared Sidious. You explain to me THAT. And it's amazing how he never tried to usurp Sidious's mantle. And you think it all through manipulation? Damn. I guess Sidious is smarter than what you give him credit for.

Secondly. Nai called me a fanboy. Ironically, I have stated many times that Sidious would end up dead and that Dooku would land the killing blow. But like I said. If you think Dooku is far superior to Sidious, go right ahead. But remember this.

1. Sidious was the master. Count Dooku was not.
2. Sidious used Count Dooku like a pawn.
3. Count Dooku feared betraying Sidious (according to Dark Rendezvous)
4. Sidious has a superior knowledge of the Force - that much is damn obvious.
5. Star Wars.com states that Sidious was the most powerful practitioner of the Force in modern times. The Republic vs Separatist war is to be considered modern times. But lemme guess. It's not canon or accurate, right?

Now. Of course I'm sure both you and Nai will excuse these and go on with your little fetish. But these are hard facts. Count Dooku never once tried to betray his master. And Count Dooku - one of the wealthiest beings in the galaxy, a Jedi Knight, a political idealist - bowed down and willingly served Sidious. Now, tell me. WHY.

If Count Dooku is better, then why the HELL serve Sidious? Lemme guess...because he felt like it? Or because he just got bored and wanted something to do?

You tell me, Janus.
6

Like I said, Dooku appears mightier than Sidious if you consider that fact. I personally think they excel in their own personal areas, but the gap is nowhere large enough for Dooku to have no choice but to bow down. I think he has his own reasons, and perhaps he saw Sidious as a means to an end in more ways than one. Personally, take it up with GL, since he's the reason we have no insight into Dooku's motives. Dooku was never meant to be a large character, nor was Mace Windu. Yoda appeared to a lot of people to be stronger than Sidious, as did Mace Windu and Count Dooku. But Sidious' fate was sealed; he was in the OT. So naturally GL can't have him get totally rocked, can he?

But Count Dooku was wrong. Sidious used him - not the other way around. Yes, Sidious did get in the OT. Dooku couldn't have, as their had to be Vader. So that explains why Dooku was killed off.

But obviously, Dooku had to be inferior in some way to be the Apprentice. If he did it for his own reasons, he wouldn't have had the fear or the loyalty to Sidious that he did. We know Sidious pwns Dooku in Dark Side knowledge - which is what I think Dooku wanted.

So. Whether or not Dooku is better than Sidious is up to debate. But we know that in knowledge of the Force, Sidious is far greater than Dooku - so that might be the reason Dooku joined him. But I doubt Sidious was weaker than Dooku. Not in Force-powers, anyways.

For example. Perhaps Yoda's ability to deflect Force lightning with his bare hands came from his 800 or more years in the Force. From what we know, Dooku did not have the connection with the Force that his master had. Sidious could cloak himself from the entire Jedi Order. Perhaps that was a power given to him by his stronger connection with the Dark Side than Dooku.

That makes sense. Even if Dooku was capable of beating him - Sidious was still too strong in the Dark Side and too clever for Dooku to actually DO it.

We know that Sidious had more SITH knowledge than Dooku, yes. Sidious had little to no direct jedi training, however, and in that regard Dooku was superior. Dooku was also the superior duellist, but Sidious had the better ties to the political system. Read again, Dooku was a political idealist... he obviously felt he could learn from Sidious and in turn for helping him achieve a politcal system that resembled his new order.

To assume that Sidious had such superior Force powers and this cowed Dooku is pretty lazy of an explanation and doesn't seemt to have much proof behind it.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
We know that Sidious had more SITH knowledge than Dooku, yes. Sidious had little to no direct jedi training, however, and in that regard Dooku was superior. Dooku was also the superior duellist, but Sidious had the better ties to the political system. Read again, Dooku was a political idealist... he obviously felt he could learn from Sidious and in turn for helping him achieve a politcal system that resembled his new order.

To assume that Sidious had such superior Force powers and this cowed Dooku is pretty lazy of an explanation and doesn't seemt to have much proof behind it.

I dunno, Janus. I find it hard to believe for Count Dooku - if he was superior to Sidious - to bow down. He did. And he was afraid of betraying him, as you noted. Now. Dooku is already a wanted man in Republic space during the times of Dark Rendezvous, so it can't be for Sidious to "turn him in". Something about Sidious intimidated Dooku. And to deny that would be lying. It hints that Sidious made Dooku feel like a child again.

Sidious was stronger in the Dark Side than Dooku. This isn't really speculation. More so, common sense. Dooku can't have been too much better than Sidious in anything - otherwise Dooku would've never joined him. Dooku always struck me as a person who wanted knowledge and to make himself superior. He possesses precious little knowledge of the Dark Side or the Sith ways when comparing himself to Sidious.

In appearance, it may seem Dooku could've beat Sidious. But Sidious is never one to reveal all of his tricks, and their is more proof to insinuate that Dooku is not leagues above his master.

Perhaps Sidious manipulated Dooku into fearing him. Sidious is quite capable of manipulating even Dooku, as we saw in Revenge of the Sith. But I will not budge from my stance that Sidious was stronger connected to the Dark Side - and possessed more knowledge of it than Dooku ever dreamed of.

To excuse Dooku's joining Sidious as a "smart political move" is also rather stupid. Did he honestly believe Sidious would be a fair and just ruler? If so, Dooku is much dumber than I thought - and he is very clever, as we've seen.

So. We know:

1. Sidious possesses far more knowledge of the Dark Side than Dooku.
2. Sidious SEEMS to possess a stronger connection to the Force than Dooku.
3. Sidious can manipulate Dooku practically whenever he feels.
4. Count Dooku fears Sidious - and fears betraying him.

Am I to assume you mean that Dooku fears Sidious because Sidious is the better politician? Like I said, I doubt it. Either Dooku isn't more powerful than Sidious as some of you like to believe - or Sidious just manipulated Dooku into fearing him.

That last part in particular is twisting my words. Dooku does not fear Sidious out of political reasons, but chiefly joined him for politcal and knowledge gain. And then after Dooku apparently murdered Sifo Dyas in order to prove himself worthy of Sith lore (LOE) at which point he felt there was no way to turn back. He also felt the same way in Dark Rendesvouz, and he was jealous of Skywalker for being the council's new prodigy when Dooku himself was the prodigy before him.

No, Dooku had many reasons to be against the jedi council and the Republic and more than a few to remain with Sidious. It was an alliance of conveniance as well as obediance. I do not doubt that Dooku was the apprentice, but if he was, it was only in Sith lore and nothing else.

And if Sidious' sith lore was well more than either of us could imagine, it would only make sense if Sidious had the compiled lore of the Sith before him for the last thousand years. And even then it barely allowed him to win against Yoda, so so much for "amazing Force mastery".

sids would lose his arms and legs then they would leave him there for the pigeons to have and they would sow his mouth shut

Lol, Janus, you know I'm beginning to think you believe Dooku outclasses Sidious in just about everything, and then what he doesn't, Sidious is only SLIGHTLY better. Yeah, lol. But that's okay. Your opinion isn't necessarily right, either. Only Lucas knows.

True, only Lucas knows. But you like to make a point of Sidious being the master so neccessarily he must be that much better than Dooku, and it's kinda the same thing in every thread where you post and where they are both involved.

Sidious loses this duel. My opinion hasn't changed.

Sidious knows more about the Dark Side, is stronger in the Dark Side, and manipulated Dooku everytime - proving not only is he stronger in the Force - but also smarter than Dooku.

Of course, you'll argue Sidious's superior intellect, too, I'm sure.

And you, my friend, along with Nai - like to make a point that Sidious sucked, and only his accomplishments are based on luck and catching people off guard. Lol. Pathetic. And you say I'm bad? Use common sense. Lucas sure as hell wouldn't have made Sidious the master if he was so much damn weaker than Dooku. So either he's a hell of a lot more powerful or a hell of a lot smarter. Which do you think? Lemme guess. Neither?

Define superior intellect.

I'll argue your methods, not the truth. Sidious had SOMETHING over Dooku, that much is implicit. But to say he was neccessarily smarter is unfounded. Manipulation is more wits than direct intelligence. If intelligence itself meant you could manipulate people, I'm sure Stephen Hawkings would get blow jobs from all the world's leaders.

well i still am stickin with my pigeons

Rofl. There you go, Janus. Lol at it again. Makes me wonder why Lucas invented Sidious's character as the major villain of Star Wars if he isn't really capable of much - as you're insinuating.

No, I'm not "insinuating" that he's incapable of anything.

I am saying outright that you calling him more intelligent is misleading, as are a majority of your statements about Sidious. Obviously you can't figrue out why you get drawn into these Sidious discussions, but I can tell you it's because you use grandiose and exaggerated words to describe Sidious and you're more often than not very wrong in using them in that context.

And you'll reply something like this:

lol whatever Janus you think Sidious sucks don't you? Next you'll argue he can't use Sith lightning, it's a movie trick.

So please, learn to debate and come back another time.

well if he agrees dooku's got this then why does it matter

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
So please, learn to debate and come back another time.

There is probably a debate class at your school(I just recently got in one). You should try it.(not directed at Janus. I think Janus is right.)

Originally posted by DarthMaul9123
well if he agrees dooku's got this then why does it matter

I think DS likes to get attention, and since he's a Sidious fanboy and only knows about enough to argue on Sidious related threads, he feels compelled to hog his fifteen seconds of fame by trying to refute everyone else on every little thing.

good enough for me
(tries to hide its freakin hard to hold peace in these forums...directed towards ds stupid side)

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
I think DS likes to get attention, and since he's a Sidious fanboy and only knows about enough to argue on Sidious related threads, he feels compelled to hog his fifteen seconds of fame by trying to refute everyone else on every little thing.

We have just as much knowledge on Dooku as we do on Sidious, as far as combat goes, so while I'm not going to go as far as saying Dooku will beat Sidious, because it's a tossup at best for me, I'm not saying Sidious would own Dooku either. In this matchup, though, Sidious goes down rather easily.

pretty much all fights are toss ups because lucky shots come into play and all that but since we use info we forget that stuff but i guess its only fair

Right. The point is to sort the evidence and decide who had the odds against them or for them.

then retards come along and put there fanboy decisions on there without consulting a greater person on the subject

ive learned well in the kmc forums

You are wise and you are strong, Ana- erm... wrong line.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
And you, my friend, along with Nai - like to make a point that Sidious sucked, and only his accomplishments are based on luck and catching people off guard. Lol. Pathetic. And you say I'm bad? Use common sense. Lucas sure as hell wouldn't have made Sidious the master if he was so much damn weaker than Dooku. So either he's a hell of a lot more powerful or a hell of a lot smarter. Which do you think? Lemme guess. Neither?

What the hell of a reasoning is that ?

Sidious had to be the master because Dooku was invented 25 years past Sidious. There had to be some logic in the films and guess what - there would be no logic if Sidious would have been killed by Dooku (because Dooku wanted to become the master) in the PT to rule over the Empire in the OT (later) again. There are heavy plot limitations in the PT because of the OT.

- Yoda has to survive
- Anakin has to survive
- Obi-Wan has to survive
- Sidious has to survive
- Dooku had to die (because of the rule of the two)

So where do you get the idea from that Sidious has to be smarter or more powerful compared to Dooku ? He simply is in the PT and the OT because of necessity. What you call common sense is simply bad logic. That is like saying "Obi-Wan is more powerful than all other Jedi except Yoda because he was alive in the OT and all other people were not."

I've actually heard that somewhere before. . . seriously. And this is becoming Dooku vs. Sidious all over again.

Now, I actually have to disagree with all of you on Sidious. Some of you grossly exaggerate Dooku, and although I too hold him in very high regard as a character, this is crossing the line into nonsensical bias. These two beings are far closer in most regards than is awarded to them.

Political Manipulation and the Ilk

This came up in many of the arguments, and however unrelated to a duel in-and-of itself, the debate upon which it was started should be concluded.

Sidious needs no introduction, but I'll give one anyway.

He manipulated the entire Jedi Order. Cool. They'd been through a millenium of relative peace, one without the constant Sith threat. Naturally, they were unprepared for such an event. However, that does not take the steam out of his accomplishments. He DID sneak past such Jedi as Yoda, Mace Windu, among others, keeping himself undetected as a Sith Lord for more than a decade, up until the point when he revealed his secret himself. He also manipulated the entire Republic/Imperial Senate into following him in his every course of action. Now, it was a time of war, but he was remarkably successful nonetheless.

Dooku was a political idealist, and a shrewd man in his own right. He saw the coming darkness, the corruption. He saw the signs of war, of chaos, when the Jedi Council in all their wisdom could not. He alone among all the Jedi discovered the presence of the Sith, and ferreted out Sidious himself. The only reasons in my mind that Dooku apprenticed himself to Sidious was:

1) To make his dream of a stable, controlled, uncorrupted Galactic government true and solid.

2) After the above was established, he sought to learn the ways of the Sith, who, in his mind, had the right idea.

Now, I'm not really in my mental peak here, so I can't exactly bring up too many other supportive facts for Dooku. I'm positive that there are a couple of others, but I'm sure Janus could put in some of these.

Now, the important things. . .

Dueling Capability

The superior here is somewhat apparent. But what appalls me is the utter disregard for Sidious' skill in itself. Some of you rate Sidious' saber skills so low it's ridiculous.

People, he may not be superior to Dooku, or Yoda, or Mace, for that matter, but he in no way is a poor duelist. He killed three Council-level Jedi Masters in under ten seconds. And nobody say that they weren't ready, that's bull. They were the ones standing there, sabers ignited, ready to bring in the "Chancellor", who they now knew as Darth Sidious, through means of force, if necessary. They may have underestimated him, but no, they weren't completely unprepared.

Now, for the people who think Mace could defeat Sidious; not rwally. Possible? hell yeah, it happened. Likely? Meh. If you want to use that logic, then Sidious WOULD defeat Yoda. Vader WOULD defeat Luke, and vice-versa. Anakin WOULD defeat Dooku. The list goes on and on. . .

Mace won because Sidious, in a completely uncharacteristic turn, underestimated Mace. he believed that he could defeat him as easily as the others. How wrong he was. now, it was Windu's skill that brought him out of the duel as a victor. I will NEVER debate against Mace's skill. Ever. But to say that he would, without a doubt, defeat Sidious, is just stupidity. But, back on topic now.

I personally believe that Dooku is the superior duelist. but not by the ridiculously huge margins that some here imply.

Force Power/Mastery

This is also rather close. In terms of raw power they are probably pretty close. Dooku was, afterall, considered to contain a vast amount of potential. Both Yoda and Mace considered him a terrible loss to the Order. And Sidious is, well, Sidious, the Emperor, Dark Lord, etc., etc. Whatever.

As for mastery, I'd give this to Sidious, but not by anything much. He'd probably studided Sith lore and been under the apprenticeship of Lord Plaguies for the majority of his life, sixty-five years. Now, Dooku was a Jedi for seven decades, along with thirteen years of Sith practice. So he had a fair amount of practice.

Now, I don't know for sure who'd come out on top. I can only make an educated estimate, which at the time is not something that I can give. I'll take Illustrious' take on this.

-Sigh- Thanks.

In between all the insults and snide remarks I've received from Nai, Janus, and Illustrious - it's good to see someone not totally bash me for liking Sidious and for sticking up for him. But I know it's your opinion.

See, guys? It's not just me seeing the bias. Count Dooku's awesome. He is my favorite duelist and is a tie for my favorite PT character. But he doesn't outclass Sidious like you say. Faunus has given a more accurate depiction than I - or anyone else - has given out. Simply because he hasn't taken sides at all.

Last time I checked, you called me and Nai and (I think) even Illustrious names for having an opposing view. Remember, you and I didn't start off to well but I decided to start from scratch at one point and met you halfway. Then, another Sidious'related argument starts and you again start with the namecalling. I really haven't attacked your stance so much as your reasoning, and by far Nai Fohl and Illustrious are some of the best debaters and followers of logic in this entire forum, although I'm not saying others haven't made some excellent points (Like Faunus has).

And the point is you always come off half-cocked with your arguments and you tend to go in circles. The person who puts you in the sights of the gun is you, DS. Like Emperor Revan when he gets his mind to it, you tend to go above and beyond the call of duty to defend someone, to the point where both sides begin to deteriorate into name calling and nitpicking. And yes, perhaps things would go easier if everyone agreed to disagree, but if that's to happen, it has to come from all sides and I don't foresee that coming anytime soon.

Now, I have a stance that I share with Nai and Illustrious. And I respect the both of them for having consistant logic and methodical approaches to debating. You, on the otherhand, tend to insult our viewpoints and go around our logic to spark up some other point, and at the very least you could do is say "Well okay, I see how you could see that, but I will still disagree. Thanks for your input." No, you instead act like the bloody victim, like you're Sidious' last chance on this forum and it's your personal honor to defend him against the idea that Dooku could -possibly- be a match for him.

The point boils down to if you don't want to go through it, abstain. But you're just making a big deal over it because quite frankly, I think you enjoy the attention. I don't see you often post on anything that isn't centered around the PT and Anakin/Sidious in particular, and I suspect it's because that's your sole stongpoint. And if you just agree to disagree and don't debate the issue, your presence on this board dwindles to almost nothing, since you (Like Plageus, who thankfully has dropped his antics) must make a stink about Sidious and how he's "disrespected" on this forum.

And what I'm really trying to say is suck it up and deal with it, since you made your reputation on this board based on the way you treat other people and how you debate, not who you like.

Necro'd.

That... was interesting to read.

Even though this is really old, Team 1 wins, obviously.

Bump this thread; what are everyone's opinions in 2017?

sidious kills obi wan by staring at him, defeats the other two with moderate difficulty

Team 1 wins. Sidious isn't blitzing anyone (though I'm likely one of the few here who thinks Kenobi would get oneshotted by Sid in sabers), only way Sid could win is if he really abuses force, but otherwise team wins

Originally posted by Total Warrior
Team 1 wins. Sidious isn't blitzing anyone (though I'm likely one of the few here who thinks Kenobi would get oneshotted by Sid in sabers), only way Sid could win is if he really abuses force, but otherwise team wins Why do you think he'd get "one shotted" by sheev in sabers? He's fast enough for Grievous, Dooku, and Vader and sure enough has the Soresu defenses wank. He's not going to find an opening in Sidious's form to go after, but I can't see him not exchanging at least 7-10 blows with Sheev before being overwhelmed.

Yeah, i meant *wouldn't get oneshotted

Sidious one-shots.

Trio.

Sidious, assuming Anakin doesn't go ragemode.

Originally posted by MythLord
Sidious one-shots. serious?

This is ROTS Sidious, not DE Sidious. He ain't one-shotting.
Anyway, Sidious. Obi-Wan's curbstomp fodder as evidenced when Dooku, Obi-Wan's better, was stomped across the galaxy, and Mace, Obi-Wan's better as well, could barely even react to three blows from Sidious. Anakin also could barely even see Sidious.
Dooku+Anakin together are not curbstomp fodder, but even their combined power won't stop Obi from being curbstomp fodder, and Sidious vs Dooku and Anakin is a fight which Sidious wins with moderate difficulty- assuming Anakin doesn't get enraged.
Now, if Anakin enters his Zone mode, this is going to be a brutal fight- but even then, Anakin can't carry Dooku's heavy slack. Sidious will win, but with several bruises and burns.

de sidious wouldn't one shot either

Originally posted by NewGuy01
de sidious wouldn't one shot either

Well, it would be a three-shot or four-shot, if we are extremely generous to the team. It's still a horrendously and painfully lopsided curbstomp.

I would be reluctant to use Sheev's feat of choking out Dooku as indication that he can stomp. We still don't know for sure how "force barriers" work in canon or if they exist at all. Ventress managed to choke out Skywalker and Kenobi simultaneously as Savage did to Dooku and Ventress. A more recent example is Vader in his comic disarming and choking Jedi master Infala following their lengthy duel after he became distracted by the civilians.

It would seem that a less-power force user is able to circumvent the barrier of a more powerful one if caught off-guard, which seems to apply to the aforementioned examples.

If anyone has ever read the Eragon series you might understand the similarities between mind barriers in that universe to the force barriers in SW.

Originally posted by Kurk
I would be reluctant to use Sheev's feat of choking out Dooku as indication that he can stomp. We still don't know for sure how "force barriers" work in canon or if they exist at all. Ventress managed to choke out Skywalker and Kenobi simultaneously as Savage did to Dooku and Ventress. A more recent example is Vader in his comic disarming and choking Jedi master Infala following their lengthy duel after he became distracted by the civilians.

It would seem that a less-power force user is able to circumvent the barrier of a more powerful one if caught off-guard, which seems to apply to the aforementioned examples.

If anyone has ever read the Eragon series you might understand the similarities between mind barriers in that universe to the force barriers in SW.

He can't stomp Dooku when Ani's around, but wrecking Obi's superior so hard is quite enough to prove Obi doesn't last a second.

And no, Dooku really wasn't off guard. IIRC, Maul said it was a rookie mistake to have your guard down. Dooku knew Sidious was mad, and could make a move against him.

Ventress was extremely rage-amped when she choked the Jedi duo, as was Opress when he choked his masters. Sidious wasn't rage-amped to a gigantic degree when he dominated Dooku. It's also consistent with his other feats (dominating Maul+Savage who have shown superior Force power to Dooku).

Now, DE Sidious is considerably more powerful than ROTJ Sidious who in turn is vastly above the Dooku stomper ROTS Sidious. No reason for DE Sidious not to stomp Dooku, even with Kenobi+Skywalker.

ROTS Sidious can't come close to stomping, though.

In Canon opponents usually are caught off guard when they are choked.

Yoda vs Ventress being the exception. I mean jeez she just wasn't capable of attacking Yoda at all.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
He can't stomp Dooku when Ani's around, but wrecking Obi's superior so hard is quite enough to prove Obi doesn't last a second.

And no, Dooku really wasn't off guard. IIRC, Maul said it was a rookie mistake to have your guard down. Dooku knew Sidious was mad, and could make a move against him.

Ventress was extremely rage-amped when she choked the Jedi duo, as was Opress when he choked his masters. Sidious wasn't rage-amped to a gigantic degree when he dominated Dooku. It's also consistent with his other feats (dominating Maul+Savage who have shown superior Force power to Dooku).

Now, DE Sidious is considerably more powerful than ROTJ Sidious who in turn is vastly above the Dooku stomper ROTS Sidious. No reason for DE Sidious not to stomp Dooku, even with Kenobi+Skywalker.

ROTS Sidious can't come close to stomping, though. Don't you think it would quite risky for Dooku to lash back at his master in that situation? We don't know if could've fought back or was completely helpless, but if it was the former, that would've been a near suicidal mistake. Remember when Sheev told Dooku to kill Ventress and Dooku talked back for half-a-sentence before being cut-off by Sidious's "scary" voice? He then knew to shut-up to prevent himself from getting an ass-kicking.

I'm not questioning Palpatine's force superiority over the trio; just how feasible it would be to ragdoll them in a combat situation where everyone is swinging a saber and has their "guard up".

Sidious pretty easily

Originally posted by Kurk
Don't you think it would quite risky for Dooku to lash back at his master in that situation? We don't know if could've fought back or was completely helpless, but if it was the former, that would've been a near suicidal mistake. Remember when Sheev told Dooku to kill Ventress and Dooku talked back for half-a-sentence before being cut-off by Sidious's "scary" voice? He then knew to shut-up to prevent himself from getting an ass-kicking.




He can't really get into a Saber fight over a hologram though, so his options to fight back would be limited anyway:

Maybe the possibility of being choked is Why he was scared when Sidious made the scary voice command to kill Ventress.

Sheev solidly. Dooku's aug is not far above Kenobi's, as Ian anakins, so they won't be keeping up with Sheev in any way.

Originally posted by Azronger
Sidious pretty easily easily? Are you high?

up

Anakin can challenge Sidious on his own, the team wins

Dooku wins it for the team.

Anakin wins it for the team.

Kenobi is probably a no factor here, he gets taken out in the first 10 seconds or less, but Anakin and Dooku together are too much for Sidious and he gets overwhelmed eventually.

Originally posted by slayne
Sidious, assuming Anakin doesn't go ragemode.

Sidious could take it, the only wild card here would be Anakin and he'd have to tap into Zonakin in order to get the job done; Sid would normally let the fight drag out but because he knows all about Anakin potential i could see him trying to finish this fight quickly. Bottom line is Dooku and Obi Wan get dropped easier than Maul/Savage and Anakin might be able to beat Sidious so long as he can keep the others alive long enough to help

Don't see Dooku getting dropped tbh.

Yeah Dooku isn't getting taken out that easily

Originally posted by Rebel95
Kenobi is probably a no factor here, he gets taken out in the first 10 seconds or less, but Anakin and Dooku together are too much for Sidious and he gets overwhelmed eventually. except that killing obi wan would provoke a Zonakin

Good point, but that doesn't change the end result

Obi-Wan is too much of a weak link. Anakin and Dooku would need to be amped and performing out of their skin to even touch Palpatine. I don't think it's a stomp necessarily as Ani and The Count are powerful enough to not get ragdolled instantly, but Sidious still wins 99 times out of 100

Sidious

Dooku goes down almost as easily as Obi Wan does. Or did you miss the part where Sidious casually chokes Dooku out from half a galaxy away?

Dooku is clearly afraid of Sidious; he'd die quickly, great swordsman or not; hell Savage and Ventress gave him a hard time... the guy got bested by pirates for fck sake

Originally posted by relentless1
Dooku goes down almost as easily as Obi Wan does. Or did you miss the part where Sidious casually chokes Dooku out from half a galaxy away?

Dooku is clearly afraid of Sidious; he'd die quickly, great swordsman or not; hell Savage and Ventress gave him a hard time... the guy got bested by pirates for fck sake

Lmao I'm sick of this argument. Dooku never had his force defenses up, he wasn't expecting an attack.

Originally posted by godemperortrump
Lmao I'm sick of this argument. Dooku never had his force defenses up, he wasn't expecting an attack. on top of it, would it make any fking sense for him to resist Palpatine? Don't y'all think a slave raising his hand to his master would instantly make things 100x worse?

Originally posted by godemperortrump
Lmao I'm sick of this argument. Dooku never had his force defenses up, he wasn't expecting an attack.


It's pretty consistent going by other showings tbh. Besides most Force Chokes & Ragdollings happen when the opponent is caught off guard.



Originally posted by Kurk
on top of it, would it make any fking sense for him to resist Palpatine? Don't y'all think a slave raising his hand to his master would instantly make things 100x worse?


It would only be worse if Palpatine can just overpower him again.

Originally posted by relentless1
Dooku goes down almost as easily as Obi Wan does. Or did you miss the part where Sidious casually chokes Dooku out from half a galaxy away?

Dooku is clearly afraid of Sidious; he'd die quickly, great swordsman or not; hell Savage and Ventress gave him a hard time... the guy got bested by pirates for fck sake
Yeah because that's totally applicable to a combat scenario. Dooku obviously wasn't prepared for that nor was he going to resist.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
It's pretty consistent going by other showings tbh. Besides most Force Chokes & Ragdollings happen when the opponent is caught off guard.






It would only be worse if Palpatine can just overpower him again. So Dooku is going to fight his master without the intent to over-throw him and expect everything to go well later? Obviously Dooku knows he's not powerful enough to win against Palpatine so why shouldn't he just roll with the punches and continue on rather than try to be a tough-guy by resisting his master's hand and being severely reprimanded, or worse, later on?

We saw what happened in the new Vader comic when he let his emotions and testosterone supersede whatever little logic he had by attacking Sidious. Dooku isn't an idiot.

It's not a question of can Dooku win against Palpatine but one of can he not get rag-dolled. Using the force choke feat as an indication of yes he can be rag-dolled in a combat setting is completely out of context.

Originally posted by Rebel95
nor was he going to resist.


Why not?

Resisting's a natural thing to do. It's not like Sidious ever stated he'll punish him more if he resists.

Dooku wasn't defending himself, hence the choke isn't valid.

And it becomes more difficult to defend against someone while you're being suffocated than before.

This isn't to say ROTS Sids can'tneccesarily choke Dooku, but that choke proves very little

Originally posted by Kurk
So Dooku is going to fight his master without the intent to over-throw him and expect everything to go well later?


Resisting torture is hardly the same as attacking and overthrowing. And it's something everyone naturally does when they're being tortured.


Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Dooku wasn't defending himself, hence the choke isn't valid.



Proof? It's valid because it happened.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Resisting torture is hardly the same as attacking and overthrowing. And it's something everyone naturally does when they're being tortured.




Proof? It's valid because it happened. Yeah and so there is a difference between naturally clawing at your neck due to biological instinct and summoning the force to fight off a telekinetic attack because at the end of the day that's all that a force choke is.

Is there proof that Dooku was prepared for an unexpected telekinetic attack, by his own master nonetheless, from light-years away in the form of a hologram?

Originally posted by Darth Thor




Proof?
They were having a conversation and Dooku was suddenly choked. Dooku wasn't defending himself as he would in a fight.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Vader killed Sidious. It's valid because it happened.

regardless of whether or not Dooku was taken by surprise this is more of a showing of Sidious raw power; being able to to that to a very powerful force user from a galaxy away is no shitty feat.

Also I notice that you all failed to address his shitty showings against the Sith wanna bees; one of which Sidious absolutely steamrolled in a rather casual manner

Originally posted by relentless1
regardless of whether or not Dooku was taken by surprise this is more of a showing of Sidious raw power; being able to to that to a very powerful force user from a galaxy away is no shitty feat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
Originally posted by relentless1
Also I notice that you all failed to address his shitty showings against the Sith wanna bees; one of which Sidious absolutely steamrolled in a rather casual manner
I'm not getting into this again.

authorial intent huehuehuehue

Originally posted by Darth Thor
It's not like Sidious ever stated he'll punish him more if he resists.

Does he f*cking need to?

Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
authorial intent huehuehuehue
you could argue that. It's not exactly the only piece of evidence which can be interpreted to suggest that holistic intent.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Does he f*cking need to?


You're right wouldn't make a difference. He'd resist either way. Just like Savage tried to resist Dooku's lightning attacks, but simply couldn't.

fact is that the only thing keeping Dooku in league with the rest of the exceptional Force users of his day were his superb saber skills and his lightning spam; both of which Sidious exceeds him at in addition to overwhelming Force potential.

He's no threat to Palpatine in combat

Originally posted by Darth Thor
You're right wouldn't make a difference. He'd resist either way. Just like Savage tried to resist Dooku's lightning attacks, but simply couldn't.

No he wouldn't. Sidious expressing his dominance over Dooku isn't something Dooku's going to resist when he knows that will only incur further punishment.

There's no indication there that Sidious was going to stop, especially considering him saying, "this is not the first time you've been clumsy... You know the price of failure."

When considered, Dooku would certainly attempt to break free if he's under the impression death is imminent, which he likely was.

So you're saying that Dooku as the leader of the Confederacy and a valid Sith apprentice ( something he thought he was per RotS ) wouldn't view his position as valuable to Sidious and therefore not dispensable simply for making a mistake? :/

Let's see what the community thinks.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=646031

... what?

Sidious tells Dooku that this wasn't his first mistake - he has been clumsy multiple times in the past. Off the top of my head, we have the Order 66 fiasco, the Savage Opress fiasco, and him training Opress and Asajj Ventress as secret apprentices to overthrow Sidious.

Then Sidious tells Dooku that he "knows the price of failure," blatantly hinting that he's about to execute Dooku or worse (given we know Sidious is "far less forgiving" than someone like Vader who executed his subordinates for one mistake).

Dooku is important to Sidious, but he's not indispensable. There's a reason why Dooku hurried his ass and fixed the Sifo-Dyas issue immediately after Sidious spared him - he knew he would have been ****ed if he didn't.

Not to mention we have Dooku visibly scraping his hands over his throat trying to stop it, lmfao.

Ventress wasn't a "secret" apprentice, Sidious knew about her. And it's your assumption that Savage was being trained as an apprentice rather then simply as a tool or even that Sidious was unaware of him. :/ Not sure what Order 66 fiasco you're referring to.

Except one of the most powerful Force user's of all time who thinks he's a valid apprentice within the Banite line, has had years of training invested into him by Sidious, and who runs ones of the most powerful factions in the Galaxy for him; who's death would cause massive problems for Sidious's ability to continue to effectively manage both sides of the war is going to consider his life to be of more value then the importance of a random fodder soldier.

Sure he thought he would've been f*cked. That doesn't mean he thought he'd be executed. He just didn't want another "admonishment" from Sidious.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not to mention we have Dooku visibly scraping his hands over his throat trying to stop it, lmfao.

That's an automatic reaction to kinetic force being applied to a vulnerable area of the body. Actively resisting a Force attack requires active concentration which would require Dooku to be willing to resist Sidious and risk a worse punishment.

Ant is right, tbh.

Ant is wrong, tbh. His logic makes zero sense.

All I know is that as a young lad I wouldn't dare to fight back against the "torturous wooden spoon" knowing that it would only result in a greater ass-whooping. That's what happened to Dooku

Yep.

It doesn't matter though because Dooku was caught off guard. There have been many instances where weaker force users have choked out more powerful force users because they were caught off guard

Originally posted by Rebel95
It doesn't matter though because Dooku was caught off guard. There have been many instances where weaker force users have choked out more powerful force users because they were caught off guard



Originally posted by Darth Thor
Combatants get caught off guard with Force chokes during battle as well.

It's more about whose faster IMO. If you're too fast for your opponent then you're more likely to catch them off guard.

True but I don't know if Sidious would be able to choke Dooku if he was prepared, especially while fighting Anakin at the same time. I'm sure he could with Obi Wan though

Originally posted by Rebel95
True but I don't know if Sidious would be able to choke Dooku if he was prepared, especially while fighting Anakin at the same time. I'm sure he could with Obi Wan though


Yeah true, I doubt he would be doing it in this scenario when he's being overwhelmed in Sabers by Anakin and Dooku. Adding Obi-Wan is overkill IMO.