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Amid dramatic tears, 8000 Israeli settlers, around 0.5% of the population of the Gaza Strip, were forcibly evicted from their houses built on land comprising around 20-25% of the entire Gaza Strip, which they had occupied illegally.
The 1.4 million Palestinians in the tiny sliver of land that is the Gaza Strip, their economy strangled - 60-70% of the population live below the poverty line, around half the children are anemic and approximately a fifth of children aged 6mths to 5yrs - regain this land, however the Israeli government still holds control over the airspace, the sea and the land borders.

The building of the "fence", an 8m (~25ft) concrete wall, continues to de facto annex land outside the 1967 borders. It's estimated the wall will de facto annex as much as 50% of the West Bank when completed.
Settlements continue to be built on occupied land, including in East Jerusalem the intended capital of a future Palestinian state, which will also be cut off from the rest of the West Bank when the Israeli wall is completed.

In all likelihood as a former General, PM Sharon, probably saw this as a strategic move - in return he has gained concession from President Bush that the U.S. Administration will support Israel's wishes to keep at least some settlements on the West Bank and to deny the right of return for Palestinians. Commentators have noted that without pressure from the rest of the world the Gaza pullout may become an end to a process rather than a beginning.

Was the Gaza pullout a good thing? Was it a bad thing? Will it lead to a renewal of the peace process?
What has the Gaza pullout achieved other than making the world's biggest prison camp a little bit bigger?

I know The middle East and Africa are beyond my puny minds understanding

its really little wonder that the middle east peace process moves at a snails pace when people view situations in this way

Originally posted by jaden101
its really little wonder that the middle east peace process moves at a snails pace when people view situations in this way
And what exactly is that supposed to insinuate?
The answer to all three of those questions for me is "no", with the last one being "no, unless further positive steps are taken on both sides".

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
And what exactly is that supposed to insinuate?
The answer to all three of those questions for me is "no", with the last one being "no, unless further positive steps are taken on both sides".
Sorry that's just funny......so no is the answer to "Was it a good thing" and to "Was it a bad thing?" (and you asked four question, although these two are practically the same)

Anyways, I think it was a good thing.....still not fair but better than before....the Palastines deserve an own country....and every movement towards that I regard as good....

The Israelites are gonna get criticized whatever move they make, that area wont see peace in our lifetime too many hot headed indoctrinated persons of importance on both sides

Originally posted by Bardock42
Sorry that's just funny......so no is the answer to "Was it a good thing" and to "Was it a bad thing?" (and you asked four question, although these two are practically the same)
Anyways, I think it was a good thing.....still not fair but better than before....the Palastines deserve an own country....and every movement towards that I regard as good....
There were three quoted questions. Perhaps I should have said "a qualified no". The pullout was a good step, but it should have been a bilateral step and all indications are that the Palestinians in Gaza and their collapsed economy will still be effectively constricted. It was symbolic but little more than that, when hundreds of thousands of settlers still occupy land in the West Bank and the Israeli wall continues to be built.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
There were three quoted questions. Perhaps I should have said "a qualified no". The pullout was a good step, but it should have been a bilateral step and all indications are that the Palestinians in Gaza and their collapsed economy will still be effectively constricted. It was symbolic but little more than that, when hundreds of thousands of settlers still occupy land in the West Bank and the Israeli wall continues to be built.

Yes I know...but just because not everything was achievved its not necessarily a bad step.....

Well, considering teh pull out from the strip was happening at teh same time as a build-up on the west bank, I think the solution is a temporary one. This will not lead to peace, only more resentment and violence.

On top of that, the wall they're building is only one aspect of the Israeli defense initiative. There is an automated missle defense system being built. This means that every missle(1) launched by Palestine at Israel will be met with a return payload of five missles. This defense system is fully automated and does not require humans making descisions. It's much akin to the defense systems used by the US and Russian governments during the cold war. That is a bad idea.

I think the best thing we could do is stay out of the situation with regards to Israel. Much of the resentment for the US in the middle east comes from our involvment there. When you listen to the news, it's always 10 Israelis killed in a Starbucks. Our support for the Jews has turned Israel into a mini-America in the desert. I propose we do nothing and let them fall flat on their ass. I'm sure being the chosen people of god, the Jews will land on their feet. Right?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
And what exactly is that supposed to insinuate?
The answer to all three of those questions for me is "no", with the last one being "no, unless further positive steps are taken on both sides".

well lets see...you title the thread...the worlds biggest prison just got bigger...not a question...a statement...totally biased so please dont, after writing that, then try and hide behind a false notion of objectivity when you clearly dont accept anything the israeli's are doing as good

Look what happened to the Egyptians, Romans, Germans, etc.

The Jews will be fine.

However, I'll wager that, if the United States stops aiding Israel, we will not be for long.

Originally posted by FeceMan
However, I'll wager that, if the United States stops aiding Israel, we will not be for long.

May I ask why you think so? Just playing devil's advocate.

i honestly cant keep up with all the ins & outs over there.. its just complicated

poor excuse i know,, but its true

Originally posted by jaden101
well lets see...you title the thread...the worlds biggest prison just got bigger...not a question...a statement...totally biased so please dont, after writing that, then try and hide behind a false notion of objectivity when you clearly dont accept anything the israeli's are doing as good
Where exactly did you get the idea that I wanted to "hide behind the false notion of objectivity"? I don't work for the Associated Press, I don't have to view the pullout in as high regard, I'm a highly cynical person. I presented my thoughts on the situation. I posed the questions because I'm interested in what others thought of the pullout.
BTW aside from the third paragraph being my and others opinionative supposition, which part of my statement do you think is factually inaccurate. Tell me, show me why, and I'll retract it.
Do you claim objectivity? After your numerous arguments supportive of past and present U.S. Administration and their policies, including in regard to the Middle East, please don't try and hide behind a false notion of self-righteous indignation.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
May I ask why you think so? Just playing devil's advocate.
To prevent things from going off-topic, I'll just say my answer belongs in the Religion forum.

sorry...where did i say that i support the US''s backing of Israel...i didn't...i said i understood why they do...because of the large Jewish influence in American political circles...

you want me to prove you factually incorrect...ok...Gaza isn't a prison camp...if it were then no palestinian would pass through from the gaza strip to the west bank...they do...and what caused the economic problems that the people of gaza now experience?...well is it coincidence that the problems increased when the intifada began?...strangely enough if was international money (and a large amount from the US) that prevented total collapse of the palestinian economy

so a prison?...no...factually incorrect

Originally posted by FeceMan
To prevent things from going off-topic, I'll just say my answer belongs in the Religion forum.

Considering how well aquainted we have become, you can guess my response.

Originally posted by jaden101
sorry...where did i say that i support the US''s backing of Israel...i didn't...i said i understood why they do...because of the large Jewish influence in American political circles...
you want me to prove you factually incorrect...ok...Gaza isn't a prison camp...if it were then no palestinian would pass through from the gaza strip to the west bank...they do...and what caused the economic problems that the people of gaza now experience?...well is it coincidence that the problems increased when the intifada began?...strangely enough if was international money (and a large amount from the US) that prevented total collapse of the palestinian economy
so a prison?...no...factually incorrect
I used a hyperbolic metaphor for the Palestinian situation in Gaza. I thought people would realise that, and not take it literally. The phrase "world's biggest prison" was not meant to be taken literally. Happy, now? That the only point you contest as factually inaccurate?
I am aware the intifada is the cause of the restrictions - however we're heading into chicken and egg territory, how long do you expect every single person in an oppressed population to simply sit back and watch as their houses are demolished to make way for settlements? When the Israeli Army evicts Palestinians, they are not so polite.
If I recall correctly the majority of aid to the Palestinians comes from the E.U. Whereas a third of U.S. foreign aid goes to Israel, amounting to approximately $85 billion over the last 55 years, add to that interest costs and the figure rises to around $130 billion for a single country.
Wyre Davies, BBC
It is not without some justification they call Gaza the "world's biggest prison" - 1.3 million people crammed into an area only 360 km square.
Since the beginning of the second Intifada, or popular uprising, in September 2000, it has been virtually impossible for many Gazans to travel outside the occupied territory because of strict Israeli frontier controls.
Even moving within Gaza, from north to south, is a nightmare because of military checkpoints around Israeli settlements like Netzarim and the Gush Katif bloc.
Glenn Kessler, Washington Post
In the emergency spending bill that lawmakers completed late Tuesday, the White House had sought $200 million "to support Palestinian political, economic, and security reforms," as the president said in his February State of the Union address. But the fine print of the document gives $50 million of that money directly to Israel to build terminals for people and goods at checkpoints surrounding Palestinian areas. Another $2 million for Palestinian health care will be provided to Hadassah, the Women's Zionist Organization of America, while the allocation of the rest of the money is tightly prescribed.
The bill appears to make it difficult for the White House to give any of the aid directly to the Palestinian Authority, as Palestinians had hoped.
Direct aid to the Palestinian Authority is symbolically important for Abbas, who is also known as Abu Mazen. Shortly after Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat died in November, Bush allowed $20 million to be delivered directly to the Palestinian Authority. Under an agreement with Congress, however, that money was immediately transferred to pay bills owed to Israel's electric company.

true...but lets imagine for a moment what would happen to israel if it weren't aided by the US...

the Arab nations would round on Israel and pretty much wipe out the jewish population there with backing from Egypt, Iran, Syria, most likely the nuclear equipt pakistan...which would then draw in Israels on ally in the middle east...the nuclear equipt India

and the rest...and most of the middle east...would be...as they say...HISTORY

and how do we know this

1948 war of independance
1956 sinai campaign
1967 six day war
1973 yom kippur
1982 operation peace for galilee

how exactly do you expect a country to react when every one its neighbours are being kept at bay solely because of the US

as for the point of the thread

i apologise if i seemed abrupt but i think that the Israeli's are the only ones capable of taking any action to instigate peace because the palestinian leaders are simply incapable of controlling the likes Hamas and the other "organisations" involved in attacking Israeli's

it was a very difficult desicion for Israel to make...there are far more radical and right wing idealists in the Israeli parliment who are chomping at the bit to full out destroy the palestinians...i'm actually surprised Ariel Sharon has stayed in power long enough to make any difference given that he is hated by a large section of his own people as well as the whole of Palestine

Originally posted by jaden101
true...but lets imagine for a moment what would happen to israel if it weren't aided by the US...

the Arab nations would round on Israel and pretty much wipe out the jewish population there with backing from Egypt, Iran, Syria, most likely the nuclear equipt pakistan...which would then draw in Israels on ally in the middle east...the nuclear equipt India

and the rest...and most of the middle east...would be...as they say...HISTORY

and how do we know this

1948 war of independance
1956 sinai campaign
1967 six day war
1973 yom kippur
1982 operation peace for galilee

how exactly do you expect a country to react when every one its neighbours are being kept at bay solely because of the US
Like I said chicken and egg territory, we could rehash history back to the Ottoman empire and further.
Originally posted by jaden101
i apologise if i seemed abrupt but i think that the Israeli's are the only ones capable of taking any action to instigate peace because the palestinian leaders are simply incapable of controlling the likes Hamas and the other "organisations" involved in attacking Israeli's
it was a very difficult desicion for Israel to make...there are far more radical and right wing idealists in the Israeli parliment who are chomping at the bit to full out destroy the palestinians...i'm actually surprised Ariel Sharon has stayed in power long enough to make any difference given that he is hated by a large section of his own people as well as the whole of Palestine
Well I apologise if I made it seem as if I was trying to present a purely unbiased point - the opening statement was my opinion of the situation at hand. I simply wanted to know if other (less cynical) people saw more hope in the pullout.
Frankly the PA don't have the infrastructure to do much to Hamas, and to me the Arafats on the Palestinian side and Sharons & Netanyahus on the Israeli side have always seemed two sides to the same coin.

lets just naively hope that one day they'll all get along and laugh about how they used to blow each other to bits

not likely

but any step...however small...i think is a good one

small steps are what made the northern ireland peace process move in the right direction...some of those steps were painful and highly controvertial such as the early release of many IRA members from prison...but they all helped and things seem to be going well

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Was the Gaza pullout a good thing? Was it a bad thing? Will it lead to a renewal of the peace process?
What has the Gaza pullout achieved other than making the world's biggest prison camp a little bit bigger?

Its none best described as a political ploy; Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, was the same man who, as Minister of Agriculture in the late 1970s, did so much to promote the idea to create settlements in Palestinian occupied territory.

Much depends on how the story develops once the last settlers leave Gaza;

Whether those who looked upon settlement in the occupied territories as a biblical duty will be reinforced in their idea by what they consider to be the "betrayal" of Mr Sharon.

The resignation of Mr Sharon's Finance Minister just before the pull-out began signalled the start of a tussle for the leadership of the Likud Party if things were to go bump in the night.

Palestinians are claiming that the withdrawal of the settlers is all due to the pressure exerted by them on Israel.

Mr Sharon, for his part, looks upon withdrawal as a means to reduce the military and logistical burden of protecting settlements that had no strategic value and, surrounded as they were by hostile Palestinian elements, were prone and open to constant harassment.

It would now have the Sharon demand more consessions from Palestineans, while the Palestinians will, in all probability, demand more withdrawals, this time from the West Bank.

way before that

xmarksthespot> You ARE aware I hope, that Israel has nuclear weapons as well.

Yes, Gaza-withdrawal was good. No country should be allowed to start to built on occupied territory. The problems with the settlers is that Israel itswelf encouraged fanatics to move out there in the first place.

Frankly - I think most Israelis and Palestinians just want peace and quit to built homes, grow the land, learn and raise their kids. We just hear about the fanatics who have no respect for human life - on both sides of the fence.
But I've always wondered why Israel has been allowed to be the country with most UN resolutions against it.

Israel has broken many of the reolutions under duress from the constant attacks during the intifada

where as countries like north korea and iraq broke the resolutions against them cause they thought they'd be smartasses and get away with it

Originally posted by The Omega
xmarksthespot> You ARE aware I hope, that Israel has nuclear weapons as well.
I'm well aware of that fact - though Israel has still never admitted to having nuclear weapons capability.
BBC
In 1986, Mordechai Vanunu, who had worked as a technician at the Dimona complex, gave London's Sunday Times newspaper detailed information about Israel's nuclear programme that led observers to declare Israel the world's sixth largest nuclear power.
Before he could reveal more to the media, Vanunu became the victim of a classic "honey trap".
He was lured out of hiding in London by a female Israeli secret agent who persuaded him that she wanted to meet him in Rome. Once there, he was drugged by other Israeli agents and brought home.
Later that year, he was jailed for 18 years after a trial for treason that was held in secret. Viewed as a traitor and a spy by most Israelis, Vanunu remains in prison to this day and has spent most of his sentence in solitary confinement.
Originally posted by jaden101
Israel has broken many of the reolutions under duress from the constant attacks during the intifada
where as countries like north korea and iraq broke the resolutions against them cause they thought they'd be smartasses and get away with it
Are you referring to the current intifada? The continued building of settlements and annexation of land and the numerous other examples of defiance of the U.N. is due to the intifada which began in 2000...? right...

"Which country alone in the Middle East is in defiance of sixty-nine separate United Nations Security Council Resolutions and has been protected by U.S vetoes? Israel.
Which country alone in the Middle East has nuclear weapons? Israel.
Which country in the Middle East refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspection? Israel.
Which country in the Middle East seized sovereign territory of other nations by military force and continues to occupy it in defiance of UN Security Council Resolutions? Israel.
Which country in the Middle East refuses to prosecute its soldiers; soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war? Israel.
Which country in the Middle East had a top United Nations Diplomat, Count Folke Bernadotte, assassinated in 1948? Israel.
Which country in the Middle East prevents Palestinian refugees from returning to their homeland, in violation of UN Security Council resolution 194? Israel.
Which country in the Middle East bombarded a United Nations refugee compound at Qana, Lebanon in 1996, for 17 minutes, killing 106 civilians, more than half of them children? Israel.
Which country in the Middle East, in spite of repeated demands, refused to allow United Nations war crimes investigators into the Jenin refugee camp to conduct an assessment of deaths and injuries to Palestinian civilians in April of 2002? Israel."

69 all because of duress from an intifada that happened years later... the Israeli Administrations must have precognitive abilities. How many more UNSC resolutions would Israel have had to defy if it did not have sway over the U.S. veto?

your point being?

iraq had 75 UN resolutions imposed on it that it continued to break despite NOT being under any from of provokation such as terrorism...and thats just after 1990...there were another 14 before that

which country invaded its neighbour and had to be expelled using military force...iraq
which country excecuted over half a million people in 10 years....iraq
which country refused to allow weapons inspectors in despite repeated demands from the international community....iraq
which country expelled those inspectors against UN authority....iraq
which country has pursued illegal oil deals depite UN sanctions....iraq

the difference between iraq and israel is the fact that iraq was never under constant threat of military action from its neighbours or from terrorism

as for the initfada...the first intifada began in 1987 and although technically ended in 1991...the violence never ceased between 91 and 2000 when the al aqsa intifada began...

Originally posted by jaden101
your point being?
My point being your stated reason for the Israeli violations of U.N. resolutions is incorrect, or at the very least a gross oversimplification. Besides if the resolutions critical of Israel's actions blocked by the U.S. veto in the Security Council, which in all likelihood would also have been ignored or defied by the Israeli Administrations, were included in the count Israel's would more than equal Iraq's.

yes but my point is that unlike israel...iraq and other countries who constantly flout the will of the UN are doing it simply out of defiance at the UN and the west in general...i dont condone israels constant breaking of resolutions

many of the resolutions that israel broke were in reference to many of the campaigns i mentioned previously

Wow!