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Ignore the EU thread of this. I thought i posted it in Versus.


Here we go....

What do you guys think?

U mean in Rots?

Mace pwns Obi easily.

Originally posted by Rayvann Sadow
Mace pwns Obi easily.

Why do you say that?

Kenobi, Mace is stronger, but Ben is smarter.

Mace, Kenobi may be smarter but Mace is not an idiot, so it hardly matters. Smart fighting won't work against Mace because he won't make mistakes in combat. Now Mace is a greater swordfighter, has more training experience, is no stranger to hard fights himself and his connection to the force can't be bad either. All in all Mace outclasses Obi Wan with everything that would really matter, he would take Obi Wan down.

mace wins becasue of his expert sword skills

Originally posted by Fishy
Mace, Kenobi may be smarter but Mace is not an idiot, so it hardly matters. Smart fighting won't work against Mace because he won't make mistakes in combat. Now Mace is a greater swordfighter, has more training experience, is no stranger to hard fights himself and his connection to the force can't be bad either. All in all Mace outclasses Obi Wan with everything that would really matter, he would take Obi Wan down.

Why wouldn't he make mistakes in combat? He has done it before.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Why wouldn't he make mistakes in combat? He has done it before.

Because he isn't stupid, he wouldn't make one big enough for Obi Wan to win. Well probably wouldn't, of course he could, but then we are counting on luck again.

Mace has a bigger chance to win then Obi Wan does, I'm not saying he necessarily will win but its like 80% against 20% by all logic Mace would win.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Why wouldn't he make mistakes in combat? He has done it before.

He made a mistake in negotiation, not one in actual combat.

Obi-Wan would win because he has to be there for episode 4

seriously though I think Kenobi would win anyway because of his ninja luck

Originally posted by Fishy
Because he isn't stupid, he wouldn't make one big enough for Obi Wan to win. Well probably wouldn't, of course he could, but then we are counting on luck again.

Mace has a bigger chance to win then Obi Wan does, I'm not saying he necessarily will win but its like 80% against 20% by all logic Mace would win.


What the hell?

And for the rest of you, Mace is not a Lightsaber god, okay? Obi Wan has more than significant Lightsaber skills. He is also very smart. Mace Windu tends to prefer Aggresive Neogotiations, being why Palpatine didn't stand trial and also being why Mace Windu is an ******* to the whiney brat that Anakin is.

Obi Wan has extreme Luck, Saber skill and Logic over Mace.

Let's see if Mace can kill a Sith Lord when he is a Padawan, hmm?

Obi Wan takes it home.

Lets see if Obi Wan can do it in a fair fight. Oh no wait he couldn't.

Besides he had a different style then, Obi Wan doesn't have saber skills over Mace either thats pretty clear, logic? I doubt it. Obi Wan is smart but so is Mace just in different ways, extreme luck? So this debate is about who is luckiest now. Yeah of course Mace could slip over a banana and Obi Wan could win because of that. But lets not go that way now shall we.

Also lets not forget that Mace Windu was seen by all as the second most powerful Jedi in the order. That Mace did defeat Palpatine and Yoda said that Obi Wan could not. That Mace is second in command in the Jedi Order, when Obi Wan just joined the council by the time of Rots.

Originally posted by Fishy
Lets see if Obi Wan can do it in a fair fight. Oh no wait he couldn't.

Besides he had a different style then, Obi Wan doesn't have saber skills over Mace either thats pretty clear, logic? I doubt it. Obi Wan is smart but so is Mace just in different ways, extreme luck? So this debate is about who is luckiest now. Yeah of course Mace could slip over a banana and Obi Wan could win because of that. But lets not go that way now shall we.

Also lets not forget that Mace Windu was seen by all as the second most powerful Jedi in the order. That Mace did defeat Palpatine and Yoda said that Obi Wan could not. That Mace is second in command in the Jedi Order, when Obi Wan just joined the council by the time of Rots.

Mace was played by Si....

Nah, don't wanna start yet another arguement.

By all? May you explain who all is? I want names, please.

Yoda says alot of things. And Yoda's word isn't gospel, people. Get that straight.

How is it clear that Mace is better than Obi Wan? What makes him better? Because he is a bald black man who "thinks" he defeated Palpatine and got his ass played by Anakin?

The only clear victory he ever got was over Jango Fett.

Mace couldn't even defeated Grievous, whereas Obi Wan completed that Task.

And yes, with Obi Wan's luck, Mace probably would slip over a Banana peel and get a saber shoved in his throat.

Mace never fought GG, at least not if LOE is correct.

And I don't know Starwars.com describes him as a legend with only two people that could beat him.

Anakin talks about how good Obi Wan is in fighting by comparing him with Mace in AOTC. Mace lead the Jedi attack on Geonosis, clearly showing he is higher in rank then the other people there, for a reason. Sidious realised Mace was the second most powerful and even started talking with Mace about what would happen if Yoda died, when Yoda went missing or something.

Mace his victory over Sidious has been debated a thousand times, and all logic points towards Mace winning because Sidious didn't use the force enough. So yeah he is better with a lightsaber then Sidious is. But i'm not going to go into that debate again, so if you disagree please don't reply to that point and i'll drop it too.

Originally posted by Sorgo
And for the rest of you, Mace is not a Lightsaber god, okay?


That's the problem. Mace is a lightsaber god. In fact he's the Jedi pendant of Tulak Hord.

Mace invented his own style at the age of 13 practicing it for 40 years. He was on the council at the age of 28 an age where Obi-Wan was just a Jedi Knight. He was never defeated in a lightsaber fight. Yoda himself said that he might be able to take Dooku (DR) while Obi-Wan got his ass kicked by Dooku quite easily two times and he also said that Obi-Wan is not powerful to beat Sidious while Mace did it. And Yoda most likely know what he's talking about.

Actually there is nothing that speaks for Obi-Wan. We know that Mace has the better duelling form. We know that Mace has his Shatterpoint ability which would grant him another advantage in a duel. We know that Mace was the only Jedi (except Yoda) who is seen to be able to deal with people like Dooku or Sidious (while Obi-Wan is obviously not).

So...I just have to say that Obi-Wan will lose here although he's my fav Jedi.

Originally posted by Fishy
Mace never fought GG, at least not if LOE is correct.

And I don't know Starwars.com describes him as a legend with only two people that could beat him.

Anakin talks about how good Obi Wan is in fighting by comparing him with Mace in AOTC. Mace lead the Jedi attack on Geonosis, clearly showing he is higher in rank then the other people there, for a reason. Sidious realised Mace was the second most powerful and even started talking with Mace about what would happen if Yoda died, when Yoda went missing or something.

Mace his victory over Sidious has been debated a thousand times, and all logic points towards Mace winning because Sidious didn't use the force enough. So yeah he is better with a lightsaber then Sidious is. But i'm not going to go into that debate again, so if you disagree please don't reply to that point and i'll drop it too.

Right.... Of course Mace is better than Sidious....

Do not bring any Book fact into this because ANY SINGLE book is NOT Canon whatsoever.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Right.... Of course Mace is better than Sidious....

Do not bring any Book fact into this because ANY SINGLE book is NOT Canon whatsoever.

How is LOE not cannon?

Originally posted by Fishy
How is LOE not cannon?

Oh dear...


None of the books are Canon.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
That's the problem. Mace is a lightsaber god. In fact he's the Jedi pendant of Tulak Hord.

He was never defeated in a lightsaber fight.


Um...no. Go to SW.com it says that the only two people that ever beat Windu were Yoda and Dooku. Back to the battle...Obi-Wan is very resourseful and uses the area to his advantage (mustafar) making him a smart duelist. Not a lucky ninja.

Oh dear, who cares anyways... Read the rest of the post, and while you are at it, read Nai's post... If that doesn't convince you then i'm going to label you as a fanboy from now on.

How are books not canon?

Originally posted by Fishy
Oh dear, who cares anyways... Read the rest of the post, and while you are at it, read Nai's post... If that doesn't convince you then i'm going to label you as a fanboy from now on.

The Books just aren't Canon. Why can't you just face that?

ROTS Novel: Kit Fisto head is off of his body and on an office table.
ROTS Movie: Kit is slashed across the chest and falls to the ground.


The books just aren't Canon, buddy!

Whoa Sorgo, way to fight the odds.

Let's just check over the facts that are in Mace's favor:

- Was a secondary council member, created his own fighting style and was a master by TPM.

- Obviously contended with Sidious, whereas it is doubtful Obi-Wan could have. There isn't anything to even hint that Obi-Wan -could- contend with Sidious, since it was Mace's aggressive technique and onorthodox methods that got Sidious sitting on his ass in half a minute.

- In Shatterpoint, Mace plays it very smart, and shows a lot of adaption on the battlefield and off of, despite being behind enemy lines and totally outnumbered and outgunned on many occassions.

Now for Obi-Wan:

- Defeated Anakin Skywalker in a prolonged fight.

- Defeated Grievious in a rather neutral setting (Compared to Mace fighting Grievious on top of a moving repulsorlift train.) in a lightsaber battle.

- Defeated a Sith lord through mostly good fortune.

There is nothing that points to Obi-Wan having any favor in this setup. Mace has more of everything, and he would win. Especially because of his Shatterpoint ability.

Originally posted by Fishy
Oh dear, who cares anyways... Read the rest of the post, and while you are at it, read Nai's post... If that doesn't convince you then i'm going to label you as a fanboy from now on.

What's your problem? I'm just trying to even out the playing field a bit. Everybody says Obi sucks cause he needs the enviroment to do this and that. No. He just uses his head in a duel he dosen't swing away babe ruth style like anakin. I agree with Sorgo, the books are not cannon theyre just different takes on the SW saga.

Originally posted by Sorgo
The Books just aren't Canon. Why can't you just face that?

ROTS Novel: Kit Fisto head is off of his body and on an office table.
ROTS Movie: Kit is slashed across the chest and falls to the ground.


The books just aren't Canon, buddy!

Sorgo, don't deny the books when they don't support your arguments. That's ridiculous. In this, an EU subforum, books are as good as canon so long as they don't directly contradict the movies. If we couldn't apply books, why would we even use characters like NJO Luke, that technically wouldn't exist under your mindset?

No, don't try and fight the books on this one. If you're looking for movie purism, you are in the wrong section.

LOL. Books not cannon. The only book that isn't canon is that crap Stover wrote and vatious other things that don't fit of course..

Originally posted by MAKASHIMAN
What's your problem? I'm just trying to even out the playing field a bit. Everybody says Obi sucks cause he needs the enviroment to do this and that. No. He just uses his head in a duel he dosen't swing away babe ruth style like anakin. I agree with Sorgo, the books are not cannon theyre just different takes on the SW saga.

I wasn't talking to you, I replied before I even saw your post, sorry.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Sorgo, don't deny the books when they don't support your arguments. That's ridiculous. In this, an EU subforum, books are as good as canon so long as they don't directly contradict the movies. If we couldn't apply books, why would we even use characters like NJO Luke, that technically wouldn't exist under your mindset?

No, don't try and fight the books on this one. If you're looking for movie purism, you are in the wrong section.

They do not support any arguements, being that the books are things that never happened to any relevance to the movie.

Don't support the books PERIOD, Janus. They have no relevance or importance in these Arguements. Hell, if some author made a book where Mace comes back to life and kills everyone in the Galaxy, are you gonna use that in here, Janus?

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Whoa Sorgo, way to fight the odds.

Let's just check over the facts that are in Mace's favor:

- Was a secondary council member, created his own fighting style and was a master by TPM.

- Obviously contended with Sidious, whereas it is doubtful Obi-Wan could have. There isn't anything to even hint that Obi-Wan -could- contend with Sidious, since it was Mace's aggressive technique and onorthodox methods that got Sidious sitting on his ass in half a minute.

- In Shatterpoint, Mace plays it very smart, and shows a lot of adaption on the battlefield and off of, despite being behind enemy lines and totally outnumbered and outgunned on many occassions.

Now for Obi-Wan:

- Defeated Anakin Skywalker in a prolonged fight.

- Defeated Grievious in a rather neutral setting (Compared to Mace fighting Grievious on top of a moving repulsorlift train.) in a lightsaber battle.

- Defeated a Sith lord through mostly good fortune.

There is nothing that points to Obi-Wan having any favor in this setup. Mace has more of everything, and he would win. Especially because of his Shatterpoint ability.

Mace created nothing. He merely advanced what is Juyo.


There is no proof Mace contended with Sidious.

- Sidious had his Lightsaber pointed at Mace's chest. And don't say his arm was fully extended. Even so, all he had to do was parry his feet.

- Sidious was apparently "weak" after Mace knocked him down, but managed to use Lightning to throw him fifty feet out of a window?

C'mon now!

In Shatterpoint, Mace plays it very smart, and shows a lot of adaption on the battlefield and off of, despite being behind enemy lines and totally outnumbered and outgunned on many occassions.
If you wish to go by the books, Obi Wan destroyed around ten thousand to fifteen thousand droids in a hallway, so....

So what are you saying now? Don't use EU in an EU forum... If thats it then don't post here.

And no of course not because that book would never get published.

Now the books about the movies are indeed none cannon, unless of course you consider the book about ANH which was written by Lucas himself. The other books however are cannon.

But lets drop the debate about whats cannon and not and continue the debate about Mace and Obi Wan. Unless of course you are finally willing to admit that Obi Wan doesn't really have a chance.

Originally posted by Fishy
I wasn't talking to you, I replied before I even saw your post, sorry.

My bad. Anyway let's be realistic some books make luke out to be the king of the universe while others make yoda out to be the suckiest jedi ever. My point is that you really have to examine the info and compare it with SW.com. I personaly don't like it because it's self contradicting but next to GL's words it's the best. Maybe even wiki when it's not ridiculous. Anyways some books are cannon others are not it's all a matter of finding valid non idiotic info in those books.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Mace created nothing. He merely advanced what is Juyo.


There is no proof Mace contended with Sidious.

- Sidious had his Lightsaber pointed at Mace's chest. And don't say his arm was fully extended. Even so, all he had to do was parry his feet.

- Sidious was apparently "weak" after Mace knocked him down, but managed to use Lightning to throw him fifty feet out of a window?

C'mon now!

In Shatterpoint, Mace plays it very smart, and shows a lot of adaption on the battlefield and off of, despite being behind enemy lines and totally outnumbered and outgunned on many occassions.
If you wish to go by the books, Obi Wan destroyed around ten thousand to fifteen thousand droids in a hallway, so....

I'm not even going to go into a Mace Sidious debate, I already said that.

Now Mace did create his own style yes it was based on another style, but all styles are. If you want to say it like that then there really aren't any styles, just extensions on the first. Which is bullshit.

Obi Wan also didn't destroy 10.000 droids, I think it was more around 30. And Mace did fight smart, look if you want to debate movie online go to the damn movie forums. This is an EU forum we use EU sources here. And even in the movies there is nothing to suggest that Mace is weaker then Obi Wan.

Jesus, you and Makashiman suddenly take bad crack today?

There is a distinction between movie novelisation and EU novels.

Novelisations are NOT canon and are NOT even quasi canon (quasi canon being the whole of EU that is sanctioned by Luasfilm and Lucasarts inc.) They are simply an author's take on a film or its script (as was the case with ROTS) and are made to milk the proverbial cow.

EU Novels are NOT canon, but they ARE quasi canon and here at the Eu subforum versus threads we do acknowledge them, even grudgingly. If Lucasarts said Mace came back from the dead and saved the galaxy (For one, it'd make no sense at all and contradict other EU novels and comics) it would be quasi-canon and thus a source to draw upon here, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Jesus, you and Makashiman suddenly take bad crack today?

There is a distinction between movie novelisation and EU novels.

Novelisations are NOT canon and are NOT even quasi canon (quasi canon being the whole of EU that is sanctioned by Luasfilm and Lucasarts inc.) They are simply an author's take on a film or its script (as was the case with ROTS) and are made to milk the proverbial cow.

EU Novels are NOT canon, but they ARE quasi canon and here at the Eu subforum versus threads we do acknowledge them, even grudgingly. If Lucasarts said Mace came back from the dead and saved the galaxy (For one, it'd make no sense at all and contradict other EU novels and comics) it would be quasi-canon and thus a source to draw upon here, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

Lucasarts? Lucasarts? What the hell do they have to do with anything? They sure as hell have nothing to do with the books. The books are not Canon at all! This is proven with the ROTS Novel.

For crying out load, didn't you even read his post? One book doesn't proof the rest...

Movie books are not cannon the rest are unless they contradict the movies.

Now please drop this debate already, there are plenty of debates around. If you want to know whats cannon or not read one of those. Now can you please go back on topic.

Hey man I may drink heavily and have to go to AA but I am not on crack. Anyways(hiccup)I am not talking about some of those movie novvels I am talking about the NJO books they make Luke out to be uber powerful and thats just not right.

Originally posted by Fishy
I'm not even going to go into a Mace Sidious debate, I already said that.

I heard you say that but unfortunately i was not talking to you. I was talking to Janus.

Originally posted by Fishy Now Mace did create his own style yes it was based on another style, but all styles are. If you want to say it like that then there really aren't any styles, just extensions on the first. Which is bullshit..

He advanced another style. That's.... Just....It!

Originally posted by Fishy Obi Wan also didn't destroy 10.000 droids, I think it was more around 30. And Mace did fight smart, look if you want to debate movie online go to the damn movie forums. This is an EU forum we use EU sources here. And even in the movies there is nothing to suggest that Mace is weaker then Obi Wan.

Actually, it was around 20,000, i think.... If you wanna go by the books, then Obi Wan did in fact do this.

Obi Wan fought smart too. He was probably one of the smartest fighters around, except for Yoda, who surpasses him.

Originally posted by Fishy
For crying out load, didn't you even read his post? One book doesn't proof the rest...

Movie books are not cannon the rest are unless they contradict the movies.

Now please drop this debate already, there are plenty of debates around. If you want to know whats cannon or not read one of those. Now can you please go back on topic.

Doesn't it? Lucas has NOTHING to do with any of the books, that is one fact supporting why books are Canon, the other being things happen in the books that don't add up into the movie.

Every style is just an improvement of another... If what you say is true then there is only one style, and what Mace did remains impressive because he thought of a new extension.

Originally posted by Fishy
Every style is just an improvement of another... If what you say is true then there is only one style, and what Mace did remains impressive because he thought of a new extension.


A new extension he could hardly control.


There only is one style. The rest are just broken up and placed with names and factions. They are all advancements of another Form. So, yes, Mace's form is just an advancement to another Form.

Jesus, Sorgo, did you wake up cranky today.

I'm gonna say this once and you either concede the point or I'm done fighting with your stubborn ass:

GL's companies sanction EU works and they sanction the novelisations, and the games and comics and the coloring books, etc. But when it comes to proof, here at KMC we rely mostly on Ush's definition of canon and quasi-canon. And we've decided that novelisations (Which are distinctly different from other EU works) are not even worthy of quasi-canon simply because they reflect an author's viewpoint on something GL has already gone over point by point. Other EU novels are not ilumped into this category because GL hasn't written things like 'Shatterpoint' or anything; therefore unless they say something totally outrageous (Like Obi-Wan defeated Sidious with a broom) they stand.

well well this thread is interesting but im going to go with mace windu

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Jesus, Sorgo, did you wake up cranky today.

I'm gonna say this once and you either concede the point or I'm done fighting with your stubborn ass:

GL's companies sanction EU works and they sanction the novelisations, and the games and comics and the coloring books, etc. But when it comes to proof, here at KMC we rely mostly on Ush's definition of canon and quasi-canon. And we've decided that novelisations (Which are distinctly different from other EU works) are not even worthy of quasi-canon simply because they reflect an author's viewpoint on something GL has already gone over point by point. Other EU novels are not ilumped into this category because GL hasn't written things like 'Shatterpoint' or anything; therefore unless they say something totally outrageous (Like Obi-Wan defeated Sidious with a broom) they stand.

So, anotherwards, A Youngling can pwn Dooku?

Originally posted by Sorgo
He advanced another style. That's.... Just....It!


No...because he's not using Juyo any longer. Compare Maul to Mace and tell me they are using the same or an familiar style. Vaapad is not Juyo and not advanced Juyo. It's Mace personal completion of Juyo (so Juyo combined with other forms) and therefore not simple advanced Juyo.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
No...because he's not using Juyo any longer. Compare Maul to Mace and tell me they are using the same or an familiar style. Vaapad is not Juyo and not advanced Juyo. It's Mace personal completion of Juyo (so Juyo combined with other forms) and therefore not simple advanced Juyo.

Maul uses a Double bladed lightsaber so the form is put into a whole new context.

Vapaad is Juyo advanced. It isn't a whole new form.

put well nai fohl

Originally posted by Sorgo
Vapaad is Juyo advanced. It isn't a whole new form.

It's based on Juyo but isn't Juyo. That's the point. It's something that Mace created and the fact he did that in the age of 13 is quite impressive.

And can you please give me a single argument why Obi-Wan should be able to take Mace ?

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
It's based on Juyo but isn't Juyo. That's the point. It's something that Mace created and the fact he did that in the age of 13 is quite impressive.

And can you please give me a single argument why Obi-Wan should be able to take Mace ?

When most of the moves he does looks like something from Juyo, then yes, it is still a large part of Juyo.

Why should Mace win? Why is he so special? Because he "apparently" defeated Mace? Right....

Or wait.... Because he chopped Jango's head off.

OR BECAUSE HE IS A REALLY GOOD SABER FIGHTER!

And Obi Wan isn't? C'mon! Obi Wan is a great Lightsaber duelist, being why he totally chopped Anakin's shit up.

Originally posted by Sorgo
So, anotherwards, A Youngling can pwn Dooku?

WTF? Where did this come from exactly?

Originally posted by Sorgo
Why should Mace win?

That was no answer to my question.

So Obi-Wan should win because he could beat Anakin ? Mace was on par with Dooku and Yoda. Dooku kicked Obi-Wan and Anakin around as if they were little kids. And now Obi-Wan should win against somebody that is on par with Dooku ?

I don't think so...

I don't see how any of this refuting novels wins this debate, Sorgo.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
That was no answer to my question.

So Obi-Wan should win because he could beat Anakin ? Mace was on par with Dooku and Yoda. Dooku kicked Obi-Wan and Anakin around as if they were little kids. And now Obi-Wan should win against somebody that is on par with Dooku ?

I don't think so...

You are comparing someone elses win to another person? That is like saying Sidious can kick Dooku's ass because Yoda apparently beat Dooku and Sidious beat Yoda.

Sorgo,

The Star Wars official site says that Mace defeated Sidious on his own - without Sidious faking or manipulating the battle. I cite the databank as a reliable source - though I've been told otherwise.

Before that, I thought Sidious faked - as Anakin's arrival was spot on accurate. And then when you compare Sidious's battle with Yoda, he fought much more aggressively and stronger. But that isn't the issue.

Obi-Wan is the poster-child for Jedi. He is a good duelist, to be sure. But nothing spectacular. He relies on his wit, courage, and experience to get him through obstacles - and the occasional bout of luck. He's strong in the Force - but he doesn't seem to be on par with Yoda or Mace.

Mace is cited as being one of the greatest duelists of the Order. His style of Vaapad is aggressive and he uses it to identify a weakness or in this case - shatterpoint - of his opponents. Whether or not Vaapad holds any weight in this argument is unknown. Only Yoda and Dooku - the two greatest PT duelists - have ever defeated him. And Dooku did that before TPM - where Mace could have significantly improved.

Yoda also told Obi-Wan that he couldn't defeat Sidious. But Mace did, even if it wasn't a battle of the Force. So, knowing all of that, my money is on Mace.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Sorgo,

The Star Wars official site says that Mace defeated Sidious on his own - without Sidious faking or manipulating the battle. I cite the databank as a reliable source - though I've been told otherwise.

Before that, I thought Sidious faked - as Anakin's arrival was spot on accurate. And then when you compare Sidious's battle with Yoda, he fought much more aggressively and stronger. But that isn't the issue.

Obi-Wan is the poster-child for Jedi. He is a good duelist, to be sure. But nothing spectacular. He relies on his wit, courage, and experience to get him through obstacles - and the occasional bout of luck. He's strong in the Force - but he doesn't seem to be on par with Yoda or Mace.

Mace is cited as being one of the greatest duelists of the Order. His style of Vaapad is aggressive and he uses it to identify a weakness or in this case - shatterpoint - of his opponents. Whether or not Vaapad holds any weight in this argument is unknown. Only Yoda and Dooku - the two greatest PT duelists - have ever defeated him. And Dooku did that before TPM - where Mace could have significantly improved.

Yoda also told Obi-Wan that he couldn't defeat Sidious. But Mace did, even if it wasn't a battle of the Force. So, knowing all of that, my money is on Mace.


And Dooku did that before TPM - where Mace could have significantly improved.

I am guessing Dooku has gotten worse since before TPM?

I didn't think so.

Mace isn't the only one who has vastly improved since before TPM, Somebody.



The Star Wars official site says that Mace defeated Sidious on his own - without Sidious faking or manipulating the battle. I cite the databank as a reliable source - though I've been told otherwise.

Do you plan on telling me where it says Mace defeated Sidious without Sidious faking or manipulating anything, please? Thank you.

A respected Jedi on par with the venerable Yoda, Mace Windu was a senior member of the Jedi High Council. His wisdom and experience were legendary, and his words carried great weight.
In the later years of the Republic, Windu spent most of his time in the Jedi Temple of Coruscant. He regularly conferred with Yoda and the ten other members of the Council, contemplating the very nature of the Force and the affairs of the Jedi Knights.

Windu was well schooled in Jedi philosophy and history. He knew of the ancient prophecy of the Chosen One who would return balance to the Force. When maverick Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn approached the Council with a prospective candidate to fulfill that prophecy, Windu was hesitant. With reservations, he agreed that the child, Anakin Skywalker, could be tested for Jedi potential.

Though Anakin had the highest midi-chlorian count on record, and indeed showed great potential, the Council and Windu decided that he was not to be trained. He was too old to begin the life of a Jedi. After Qui-Gon's death, the Council rescinded their original decision, and granted Obi-Wan Kenobi permission to train Anakin Skywalker. Still, Windu fostered a mistrust of Skywalker, feeling that he was too powerful for his age and too unpredictable.

Windu, a diplomat by nature, believed in the power of words over action. But as the galaxy found itself increasingly fragmented by the rise of a powerful secessionist movement, he grew to question some of his firmest held beliefs.


He thought it impossible that the Separatist leader, former Jedi Count Dooku, could be behind the escalating flashpoints of violence in the galaxy. Such aggression was not in his character, Mace reasoned.

When an intelligence report from Jedi Knight Obi-Wan Kenobi revealed the Separatists gearing up for war, Windu came to realize that the time for negotiation had passed. Though he reminded the Supreme Chancellor that the Jedi were peacekeepers and not soldiers, as the Clone Wars began, the Jedi found themselves leading platoons of clone troopers into battle.

Reversals such as these troubled Master Windu, for they came about too suddenly, and the usually prescient Jedi were unprepared. Something was clouding the future, and the order's very connection to the Force was weakening. That a Sith Lord existed somewhere in the galaxy, was not in doubt but could this shadowy villain really bring this much imbalance to the Force?


At the first engagement on Geonosis, Windu arrived ahead of the clone trooper army with a Jedi taskforce. He was there to free Jedi held captive by Count Dooku. In the battle that ensued, Windu faced Dooku's hired gun, bounty hunter Jango Fett. Though Fett had proven himself deadly against other Jedi, he was no match against Windu. The Jedi Master repeatedly deflected Jango's incoming blasts, and quickly decapitated the hunter with his lightsaber.

As the Clone Wars erupted on Geonosis, Windu led a special squad of commando clone troopers into the thick of battle. He would be one of the few Jedi to return unscathed from that first engagement... at least physically. His spirit would suffer in the years that followed.

Though the Jedi were loyal protectors of the galaxy, facing war on the battlefronts in command of the clones, Windu felt uncertain about the direction of the Republic. As the war carried on year after year, Supreme Chancellor Palpatine amassed more political power, modifying the Galactic Constitution in the name of security. A wary Windu grew to distrust Palpatine, and he feared that the Chancellor would make a move to take direct control of the Jedi Council.

Palpatine's first step in that direction appeared to be the installation of a personal representative on the Jedi Council. The Chancellor requested that Anakin Skywalker, his close associate, be appointed to the ruling body. The Council, surprisingly, agreed. They hoped to use Anakin as a conduit of information, to learn of the Chancellor's dealings. It was a difficult decision, indicative of the stressful times. Windu had deep reservations -- it was very dangerous, he sensed, to keep Anakin and Palpatine close together.

His concern was justified. Chancellor Palpatine was, in fact, Darth Sidious, the Sith Lord that had escaped Jedi detection all this time. It was Anakin Skywalker who loyally delivered news of this discovery to Windu, though the Jedi Master still did not fully trust the young Jedi. Mace gathered a team of his finest Jedi warriors -- Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto -- to arrest the Chancellor. Though Skywalker wished to accompany Windu, the Jedi Master forbade it. He ordered Skywalker to stay in the Council chambers until the matter was resolved.

The Jedi barged into Palpatine's most private offices. Mace attempted to arrest the Chancellor, but Palpatine sprang into action. Brandishing a lightsaber, Palpatine dropped the guise of harmless politician and emerged as deadly Sith Lord. Sidious quickly killed Tiin, Kolar and Fisto and forced Windu back into the main office chamber. Just then, Anakin Skywalker arrived, disobeying Windu's direct order.

Windu had disarmed Sidious and cornered the treacherous Sith Lord into the frame of his expansive office window. Fearing that Sidious was too powerful to take prisoner -- the Dark Lord still had control of the Senate and courts -- Windu moved to deliver a deathblow. Torn between his loyalties, and needing Palpatine alive to fulfill his quest for arcane knowledge to preserve the life of his beloved, Anakin acted. In an emotionally charged action, Anakin ignited his lightsaber blade and sheared off Mace Windu's weapon hand before he could strike Palpatine.

Defenseless, Windu was bombarded with Sith lightning as Sidious unleashed a torrent of deadly energy at the Jedi Master. The forked bolts of lightning penetrated Mace's body, illuminating his form from within. The final blast bodily lifted him into the air, sending his form hurling into the Coruscant skies, to crash lifelessly somewhere in the vast cityscape below.

.

It's in Sidious' bio, btw.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
It's in Sidious' bio, btw.


It doesn't mention that Sidious didn't use Mace. It doesn't say "Sidious was pwned by Mace and needed help." It doesn't mention the manipulation faction of it either.

Sidious used mace on Mace? Wow thats fighting dirty.(and girly)

Hm. I don't recall exactly what it said at this time, but when I read it I remember coming away with the impression that Mace pwned Sidious fairly.

And this still doesn't prove that Obi-Wan wins this battle.

You're starting to argue like Emperor Revan; undermining the other guy while not proving up.

It's in Palpatine's biography - or Sidious's (they have separate ones) I believe.

Now, you mis-understand. Two people can start out with one of the two having the advantage over the other. Yet over time, the weaker one can improve faster or greater than the one who originally had the advantage until they are equal or the second is now superior. This may be the case.

I also don't mean Sidious wasn't lying about the "weak" and "tired" part. Only a fool would believe it. And when Sidious blasted him with Force lightning - Mace was in a struggle for dear life. And as soon as that saber was taken away, Mace was doomed. Instantly.

So no. I don't mean Mace beat his ass easily or that Sidious wasn't lying about when he called himself tired and weak. We all know he wasn't, as Mace's death was shown. THAT was when he tried to make Anakin choose - also because with Mace holding his saber (which is capable of holding even Sidious's lightning down) - he'd have no choice but to wait until a third party (Anakin) disarmed Mace long enough for Sidious to take the advantage.

hey Sorgo, here's some advice, agree to disagree with Janus, he's more stubborn that you'll ever know

And Nefarus is always wrong. lol

Originally posted by Darth_Nefarus
hey Sorgo, here's some advice, agree to disagree with Janus, he's more stubborn that you'll ever know

Ain't that the DAMN truth...

DS is wrong too.

Except with this Obi-Wan pwns Mace threadage. That is madness. I mean, at least I can try and understand Sidious beating Dooku or even being superior in Force power on most occassions, but it'd take a lot of holding my breath and heavy drugs before Obi-wan beats Mace.

-Cough-

I never meant Dooku couldn't beat Sidious. But he didn't. Never tried, and as you said Sidious HAD something over Dooku (sad, considering Dooku has about five inches on Sidious, lol) and Dooku had nothing over Sidious. But that may just be political garbage.

I still am adamant in the Sidious debate where Dooku is the inferior Force user but superior duelist.

But that is NOT the argument, so we'll go elsewhere to argue.

I still think Mace could beat Obi-Wan.

Oh yeah? Well DOoku had his AARP card for longer!

And I know you didn't mean Dooku couldn't beat Sidious. Wasn't alluding to that really. But even if you did say that, it's not so much a stretch as this is.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
It's in Palpatine's biography - or Sidious's (they have separate ones) I believe.

Now, you mis-understand. Two people can start out with one of the two having the advantage over the other. Yet over time, the weaker one can improve faster or greater than the one who originally had the advantage until they are equal or the second is now superior. This may be the case.

I also don't mean Sidious wasn't lying about the "weak" and "tired" part. Only a fool would believe it. And when Sidious blasted him with Force lightning - Mace was in a struggle for dear life. And as soon as that saber was taken away, Mace was doomed. Instantly.

So no. I don't mean Mace beat his ass easily or that Sidious wasn't lying about when he called himself tired and weak. We all know he wasn't, as Mace's death was shown. THAT was when he tried to make Anakin choose - also because with Mace holding his saber (which is capable of holding even Sidious's lightning down) - he'd have no choice but to wait until a third party (Anakin) disarmed Mace long enough for Sidious to take the advantage.

Any one of those Jedi would have been used to turn Anakin to the dark side. ANY!

He had his saber to Mace's chest, like i said before. His arm was fully extended? It was close enough for him to parry, so why didn't he? I'll let you figure that out all by yourself.

Originally posted by Darth_Nefarus
hey Sorgo, here's some advice, agree to disagree with Janus, he's more stubborn that you'll ever know

Um... I have known him two months longer than you have, but okay.

Obi Wan has a great defense system in his Lightsaber form and Mace has offense and is known for making mistakes in his combat (We have all seen him f*ck up) and the whole figuration of Kenobi's dueling is to defend until you have found a mistake in the opponents Form.

One of the main reasons Obi could not defeat Dooku is because Dooku was flawless with his fighting and Obi could never find a f*ck-up.

Sure, it would be a long fight, but Obi Wan would take it home.

Originally posted by Sorgo
You are comparing someone elses win to another person? That is like saying Sidious can kick Dooku's ass because Yoda apparently beat Dooku and Sidious beat Yoda.

Sidious didn't beat Yoda in a fair fight...

Still they tell you everywhere that Mace would only lose to Dooku and Yoda, that he is the second best lightsaber duellist and force practicioner in the order (behind Yoda) and who wonders about it since this character was designed for Samuel "badass" Jackson ? I guess he simply received more money than all the other actors and therefore he's the best. (Except Yoda because CGI chars are even more expensive).

Originally posted by Sorgo
Any one of those Jedi would have been used to turn Anakin to the dark side. ANY!

He had his saber to Mace's chest, like i said before. His arm was fully extended? It was close enough for him to parry, so why didn't he? I'll let you figure that out all by yourself.

Like I said Sorgo, I don't believe Sidious went all out on Mace. The fight with Yoda displayed that he can raise his levels of aggression and Force power. Had he used the Force, he would have probably defeated Mace. Sidious is in a league of his own in Force powers - only with Yoda.

Sidious did NOT go all out on Mace. But in that fight, in that instance, he did beat Sidious. Would he defeat him any other time? Probably not. Would he have beat him if he were in Yoda's position? I HIGHLY doubt it.

So. If both Sidious and Mace were cutting loose - Sidious would prolly fry his ass early on.

And as for the Jedi comment, I doubt it. Anakin and Mace had a sort of history. Mace doesn't trust Anakin and thinks he's a loose cannon. And Anakin knew it. Palpatine probably knew it as well, and decided to take advantage of it. So in terms of relationships - the only one Anakin had greater than Mace or Yoda (who wasn't there at the time) was Obi-Wan, and Sidious wasn't sure at the time whether or not Anakin would turn against Obi-Wan.

But that isn't the fight we're talking about.

Kenobi has displayed nothing but a LOT of luck that would ever make him emerge victorious over Mace.

Agreed. Odds and evidence are in favor of Mace Windu.

Jeez Sorgo where are you getting this logic?

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Like I said Sorgo, I don't believe Sidious went all out on Mace. The fight with Yoda displayed that he can raise his levels of aggression and Force power. Had he used the Force, he would have probably defeated Mace. Sidious is in a league of his own in Force powers - only with Yoda.

Sidious did NOT go all out on Mace. But in that fight, in that instance, he did beat Sidious. Would he defeat him any other time? Probably not. Would he have beat him if he were in Yoda's position? I HIGHLY doubt it.

So. If both Sidious and Mace were cutting loose - Sidious would prolly fry his ass early on.

And as for the Jedi comment, I doubt it. Anakin and Mace had a sort of history. Mace doesn't trust Anakin and thinks he's a loose cannon. And Anakin knew it. Palpatine probably knew it as well, and decided to take advantage of it. So in terms of relationships - the only one Anakin had greater than Mace or Yoda (who wasn't there at the time) was Obi-Wan, and Sidious wasn't sure at the time whether or not Anakin would turn against Obi-Wan.

But that isn't the fight we're talking about.

Kenobi has displayed nothing but a LOT of luck that would ever make him emerge victorious over Mace.


I can imagine he was lucky when Anakin lost two legs and his last organic arm to Obi Wan.

I just don't think Mace's Offensive and flawed form could take over a solid defense form that awaits mistakes from your opponent.

IMO, Mace just wouldn't be able to defeat Kenobi.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Sidious didn't beat Yoda in a fair fight...

Still they tell you everywhere that Mace would only lose to Dooku and Yoda, that he is the second best lightsaber duellist and force practicioner in the order (behind Yoda) and who wonders about it since this character was designed for Samuel "badass" Jackson ? I guess he simply received more money than all the other actors and therefore he's the best. (Except Yoda because CGI chars are even more expensive).

Mace is the best because he recieved the most money? Oh, of course. This could have nothing to do with the fact that Jackson is a spoiled arse.

Mace

All right, I'll say Mace, but by extremely little. Mace is on par with Yoda. Yoda claims Obi-Wan is not strong enough to face Sidious, but Yoda is strong enough to face Sidious, indicating that Mace is stronger than Obi-Wan. But Yoda isn't always right. Still, Obi would have had to get a hell of alot better between AOTC and ROTS to be able to defeat Mace. And he did get alot stronger, but I still give it to Mace.

Forgive me for as you senior members call it "digging up old threads", but I must say this thread is...to say the least idiocy. Mace was leagues above Obi-Wan IMO.

Originally posted by Darth Zayzia
Forgive me for as you senior members call it "digging up old threads", but I must say this thread is...to say the least idiocy. Mace was leagues above Obi-Wan IMO.

Watch yourself, there. Not saying I don't neccessarily share your views, but our friend Sorgo here is exciteable, and you just called his wunderthread a pile of idiocy. I hope nothing goes atomic here.

Originally posted by Darth Zayzia
Forgive me for as you senior members call it "digging up old threads", but I must say this thread is...to say the least idiocy. Mace was leagues above Obi-Wan IMO.

Most people will agree with you.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Watch yourself, there. Not saying I don't neccessarily share your views, but our friend Sorgo here is exciteable, and you just called his wunderthread a pile of idiocy. I hope nothing goes atomic here.

Oops I'm sorry. Please Sorgo forgive any offence I may have caused you.

Originally posted by Darth Zayzia
Forgive me for as you senior members call it "digging up old threads", but I must say this thread is...to say the least idiocy. Mace was leagues above Obi-Wan IMO.


So...



You no like Idiocy? But you just commited something you don't like!

Saying what you just said is just plain Idiocy.... Or Retardation? I'll leave you to choose that.

Saying that Windu is leagues above Kenobi is showing how much of a Newbie you really are. Not only that, but it is uncovering your lack of knowledge for the Star Wars Universe.

You shouldn't be allowed to come onto KMC without a helmet.

Originally posted by Darth Zayzia
Oops I'm sorry. Please Sorgo forgive any offence I may have caused you.


Didn't see that before i posted the above post....

She apologized, you should too. There's no need to bash her; she's obviously smarter than most newer members, and it's be a shame to lose someone because of one statement.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
She apologized, you should too. There's no need to bash her; she's obviously smarter than most newer members, and it's be a shame to lose someone because of one statement.

I shot up all the Jawas with Heroin and sent them after her..... It's gonna be real hard to call 'em back.....

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
She apologized, you should too. There's no need to bash her; she's obviously smarter than most newer members, and it's be a shame to lose someone because of one statement.

It was nothing and I should have not said that this thread was idiocy.

Ahh yes, the new one must be taught in the ways of Artoo and the Jawas.

Sorgo, did you use all the heroin? Dammit. Now we have to fix the Hutt's repulsor shed before we can get more.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Ahh yes, the new one must be taught in the ways of Artoo and the Jawas.

Huh? Artoo and the Jawas?

Originally posted by Darth Zayzia
It was nothing and I should have not said that this thread was idiocy.


I told all the Jawa's on Heroin that you had big ****.... The most they could do is bounce on 'em! :P



Welcome to KMC!

I am Sorgo, one of three crazy Jawa leaders!



Hehehe....

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Sorgo, did you use all the heroin? Dammit. Now we have to fix the Hutt's repulsor shed before we can get more.


Yes.... But i got a back-up of that Hydroponic Morphine....

Originally posted by Darth Zayzia
Huh? Artoo and the Jawas?

Artoo is the God of the Universe, he is the leader of the Pantheon of Astromech Droids. Artoo created the Jawas. The Jawas then created the Force and everything else.

Janus, Sorgo, and Faunus lead the New Jawa Order, while I head up the Artoo Priesterhood.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Artoo is the God of the Universe, he is the leader of the Pantheon of Astromech Droids. Artoo created the Jawas. The Jawas then created the Force and everything else.

Janus, Sorgo, and Faunus lead the New Jawa Order, while I head up the Artoo Priesterhood.


ARTOO CREATED THE JAWAS? I DO NOT THINK SO! JAWAS ARE ORGANIC LIFE FORM! THEY CREATED THE ALMIGHTY ARTOO FOR SYNTHETIC PLEASURE!

Originally posted by Illustrious
Artoo is the God of the Universe, he is the leader of the Pantheon of Astromech Droids. Artoo created the Jawas. The Jawas then created the Force and everything else.

Janus, Sorgo, and Faunus lead the New Jawa Order, while I head up the Artoo Priesterhood.

Oh...I see...well that is um...nice

Originally posted by Darth Zayzia
Oh...I see...well that is um...nice

It is the law of the land, obey it.

Originally posted by Illustrious
It is the law of the land, obey it.

Whatever makes you happy

Pssh... skeptics .

Originally posted by Illustrious
Pssh... skeptics .

No kiddin', eh?

Conversion begins soon enough. Behold!

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Conversion begins soon enough. Behold!

LAMO!

Ootenie, bitches!

Oooteenie!

Oh nosche! Stewie Griffin called Jawas "filthy creatures" in the Family Guy movie. The Jawas must get their revenge. OOOTEENIE!

*Burns Stewie pics in rage*

If it weren't so damn late, I'd make some Stewie versus Jawa pics

That's a good idea. If I wasn't so damn lazy, I'd make some myself.

You guys seem to be the experts of Jawas...so what do they look like under those robes they wear?

Originally posted by Darth Zayzia
You guys seem to be the experts of Jawas...so what do they look like under those robes they wear?
If we were to tell you, we would have to inject you with specialized Utini Hydroponic Morphine Serum.

Originally posted by Darth Zayzia
You guys seem to be the experts of Jawas...so what do they look like under those robes they wear?

Pssst... Rumor has it that Yoda is an uncloaked Jawa.

Yes, but if I were to tell you, I'd have to kill ya.

Yep, pretty much.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Pssst... Rumor has it that Yoda is an uncloaked Jawa.

Yes, but if I were to tell you, I'd have to kill ya.

*draws a purple lightsaber ignits it and absently twirls it about*

Originally posted by Darth Zayzia
*draws a purple lightsaber ignits it and absently twirls it about*

Oh my god.... Don't even try to step up to the Jawa Council.

That won't work. Artoo would walk up to you and *zap*, smitten.

It seems I'm outnumbered...so how does one convert to Artoo and the Jawas?

Originally posted by Darth Zayzia
It seems I'm outnumbered...so how does one convert to Artoo and the Jawas?


YES!

Well, you can speak to one of three masters.


Luckily, i am a Master.

Originally posted by Darth Zayzia
It seems I'm outnumbered...so how does one convert to Artoo and the Jawas?

You will be our Jawa Military Commander!

Uh, Sorgo, to get in she has to ask all three of us... actually four.

Or you can talk to me and apply for dual membership to the Priesterhood of Artoo and New Jawa Order.

You must show that you love us.... either in your Avatar, Sig box or your title.....

Originally posted by Sorgo
YES!

Well, you can speak to one of three masters.


Luckily, i am a Master.

So...what do I do?

Oops we posted at the same time.

I mean, i'm cool. Just someone has to tell Faunus we have a recruit.

And btw, ewoks are the enemy.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
I mean, i'm cool. Just someone has to tell Faunus we have a recruit.

And btw, ewoks are the enemy.



EWOKS

ARE

OUR

SWORN

NEMESIS

Yeah, kill all Ewoks on sight, let none of those hairballs live.

So how is this? The Jawa Witch?

Hmmm... That may work.

Indeed.

Definately. You're in.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Definately. You're in.



*the air crackles with raw power and forked bolts of purple lighting as Darth Zayzia declares her allegance.*

"I am Darth Zayzia! The Dark Jawa Force Witch!

Originally posted by Darth Zayzia



*the air crackles with raw power and forked bolts of purple lighting as Darth Zayzia declares her allegance.

"I am Darth Zayzia! The Dark Jawa Force Witch!

Yay! Beer is on me.

I'll drink you under.

I'll drink you both under.

Good thing I'm not buying.

Whoa I'm gone for half and hour and the Jawas recruit again!

Jawas only recruit the best .

Originally posted by Abyssal Lord
Whoa I'm gone for half and hour and the Jawas recruit again!

F*ckin' rights.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Jawas only recruit the best .

Why...I'm flattered that you thought me worthy.

We have to test your mettle first. Can you drink Sorgo under the table?

Yeah. Mind you, he's a jawa, so he's already at a disadvantage.

Originally posted by Illustrious
We have to test your mettle first. Can you drink Sorgo under the table?

*drinks Sorgo under the table*

Yes, unfortunately, despite all their powers, Jawas are easily drunk. They then proceed to kick everyone's ass with Drunken Force Powers.

*yawn*

Well boys I hate to leave, but it's almost 3 a.m. eastern time and well I'm exhausted. Cya!

You mean 4.

Same here. It's actually 4 AM eastern, adn I get up in see... four hours.

*bearly ducks out of the way as drunk Jawa blasts the air with Force lightning*

Yeah, it's late, and I'm tired.

Adios, fellow Jawas.

Originally posted by Illustrious
You mean 4.

Why does your sig say "GrandMaster of the Jawa Order"


What the f*ck? You're no Master, let alone a GrandMaster?


Janus, what is this?

It is a title sanctioned by the Dark Lord. Just like how Janus is now the High Priest of the Artoo Tripod.

And good night.

Oh yeah, I forgot to edit. The top four of us need to adopt titles of Grandmaster or some such approximation, so we can progress some recruits to the rank of Jawa Master without confliction.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Oh yeah, I forgot to edit. The top four of us need to adopt titles of Grandmaster or some such approximation, so we can progress some recruits to the rank of Jawa Master without confliction.

There is Four now?


*Sigh*....


Then there must be one more Grandmaster....

There should be five Grandmasters AND ONLY five....

We shall pick together.

Nai, Janus, Faunus, Sorgo, and me? That's 5.

And you all need to adopt the Priesterhood of Artoo, only with both will you attain UNLIMITED POWER!

Originally posted by Illustrious
Nai, Janus, Faunus, Sorgo, and me? That's 5.

And you all need to adopt the Priesterhood of Artoo, only with both will you attain UNLIMITED POWER!


MR. FOHL AS WELL?



TALK ABOUT A MAJOR WTF TWEAKOUT!


Janus, you gotta let me know about these things!