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One last post guys.

I was thinking about the argument of who is more powerful. I've always believed Mace to be the most powerful sword fighter while Yoda being the most powerful in the force. But if he wasn't, there's a reason why he could defeat Palps and Yoda couldn't.

"The Dark Side has made you powerful."

Mace was powered by the Dark Side during his battle with Palpatine. Here's proof:

1) Mace had no mercy for Palpatine. He was willing to slay him even in front of a Jedi Knight screaming for justice. He had no regard for his decision and its ramifications. Sure, it was done because he felt there was no other choice......or was there?

There are more clues to this in the film>>

2) Mace planned to take over the senate. Even Yoda noticed this:

"The Jedi council will have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition."
"To a dark place this line of thought will carry us."

3) His statement to Anakin just before he planned to strike Palpatine was a lie and not a true fear. Remember, just before fighting the chancellor he said:

"The Senate will decide your fate."
"I am the Senate."
"Not yet."

Why would he say that to Palpatine if he knew it wasn't true? It's more than bad writing on Lucas' part. It's just a lie. Mace was travelling down the path of the Dark Side.

He paid the ultimate price for it as well. There were three men consumed with darkness that night. Mace, Anakin and Palpatine. If Mace was merciful, he would have survived and the story might have taken another turn. Sure, Anakin might have freed him, but this would have given Mace the time to plan a strategy with the Jedi, especially with the knowledge that it was a Lord of the Sith in power. It could have been fixed.

But it didn't.

For once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.


On another note: Isn't it a strange sense of irony that in AOTC, Mace decapitated Jango with Dooku watching? The look on Dooku's face was one of horror. Perhaps he had seen a similar fate for himself in his nightmares???

What do you think?

If this has been discussed before, I'm sorry, but i've been gone for a few months.

While I applaude and aknowledge the possibility of your suppositions, it should be noted that Mace Windu got his arm sliced off, screamed (scrempt?) like a *****,and got blasted two blocks horizontal and a mile-and-a-half down to his death.

I don't see Mace going to the Dark Side. I see him trying to destroy the Sith, the evil in the galaxy. He was simply defending and upholding his allegiance in the republic.

Indeed. Mace was not falling to the Dark Side, he was right; Palps was too well loved by the Republic to be tried as a villain, a trial simply would not work. He was a Sith Lord, and Jedi are supposed to kill them, seeing as they are most likely the epitome of evil from time to time.

Originally posted by southtownbluz


1) Mace had no mercy for Palpatine. He was willing to slay him even in front of a Jedi Knight screaming for justice. He had no regard for his decision and its ramifications. Sure, it was done because he felt there was no other choice......or was there?


Palpatine is a Sith, trying to control the galaxy. The Jedi arent gonna sit back and let him are they?


Originally posted by southtownbluz


2) Mace planned to take over the senate. Even Yoda noticed this:

"The Jedi council will have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition."
"To a dark place this line of thought will carry us."


Yes, the Jedi Council will take control, not Mace. "in order to secure a peaceful transition", not take control and rule the galaxy. Obviously they would hand back the power once a new Chancellor is elected, unlike Palpatine.


Originally posted by southtownbluz


3) His statement to Anakin just before he planned to strike Palpatine was a lie and not a true fear. Remember, just before fighting the chancellor he said:

"The Senate will decide your fate."
"I am the Senate."
"Not yet."

Why would he say that to Palpatine if he knew it wasn't true? It's more than bad writing on Lucas' part. It's just a lie. Mace was travelling down the path of the Dark Side.


I dont even understand what you mean...
Mace went there with the intention of arresting Palpatine and letting the Senate decide his fate (at this point Mace is arresting him for trying to take over the galaxy, not because he's a Sith).


Originally posted by southtownbluz

On another note: Isn't it a strange sense of irony that in AOTC, Mace decapitated Jango with Dooku watching? The look on Dooku's face was one of horror. Perhaps he had seen a similar fate for himself in his nightmares???


It was a look of 'Oh f*ck, I didnt expect that to happen'. Jango was supposed to be a badass bounty hunter being used as a template for the clones, and he got pwned by Mace.




Mace is a Jedi, and only a Jedi. He does what he does to protect the Republic, read the novel and you'll understand more.

If I hear one Vaapad comment I cant be held accountable for whatever I might do.

Vaapad

But look at maces expression when he is beginning his last swing. Its far from calm jedi like action. He looked like Luke, when Vader was downed. Only difference was that Luke had the courage no to kill an unarmed foe.

although i disagree with your arguement, i just want to applaude you for making a decent case and doing so without mention of "vaapad" or whatever the hell that is, or any other EU crap.

however, i think its far to obscure and hidden to be such a major twist of a plot. mace fought palps in close quarters and beat him. perhaps he was a better swordsman, perhaps palps was too cocky with him, and held nothing back with yoda.

he could have also been trying to delay the duel to wait for anakin, and it backfired. (him getting kicked in the face)

as far as mace saying "the senate will decide your fate" palps says "i am the senate". is it possible that mace realised at that moment that palpatine was right? did he finally realise that he was untouchable at that moment? thats what i think.

yoda spoke of "a dark place" but he never disagreed with mace, only stressed caution.

maybe the new tv series will explain

hopefully it wont

lol

Originally posted by Captain REX
Indeed. Mace was not falling to the Dark Side, he was right; Palps was too well loved by the Republic to be tried as a villain, a trial simply would not work. He was a Sith Lord, and Jedi are supposed to kill them, seeing as they are most likely the epitome of evil from time to time.


and for the record, Anakin was the most powerful dark or light side.

"hopefully it wont"

Indeed.... And let us pray too that it can avoid being a 25 episode long force-mystique-destroying-thesis on the mechanics of Midichlorians...

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
"hopefully it wont"

Indeed.... And let us pray too that it can avoid being a 25 episode long force-mystique-destroying-thesis on the mechanics of Midichlorians...

I was really looking forward to that..disgust

Originally posted by Sir Mist





Vaapad



*drops to one knee, pulls out the AstBow and fires an arrow in Mist's heart*

*pulls out saber, goes into Vaapad form*


*becomes a Sith, because we all know Vaapad makes you bad*

apparently theres some rumor that theres gonna b a new boba fett book where booba just finds maces clothes after he fell

Does he sell them on ebay? He could fetch a hefty price...

Mace won because he had VAPAAD! *runs for it*

I see Mace more like an extremist of the Force (a man who wanna settle all the problems in and by the way (the laws) of the Force) than a Dark side's user. For me he's like a "chaman" who believes in all "the chosen One"'s stories ...

Remember that Mace was a master of Vapaad, a fighting form that channeled the inner darkness of the wielder into their swordplay. In order to master this fighting power instead of having it master him, Mace needed a superior understanding of the nature of the Force.

Remember the Potentium view of the Force professed in EU material? I believe the most powerful of the Jedi (namely Mace, Yoda) learned that there really was no dark side and that superior understanding of human or otherwise natures enabled the ability to use the Force independently of Light and Dark. After all, those distinctions are merely the product of sentient thought.

Mace did love the Republic, which perhaps was a form of attachment that most Jedi should not form, but recall that Yoda and Mace are really the only two Jedi that show a little edge when they fight. This implies that they have the control and restraint necessary to avoid the dark path entirely.

If you never start down the dark path, it cannot control your destiny.

I think Palpatine may of been holding back as he didn't seem too use force powers and that's what he is mainly good at all we see him use in OT.

I mean in the sword vs sword fight close not when he actully unleashes it when Anakin is their he could of atleast throw in some lightning blows but he could of been too busy defending off Maces Blows

What we have to think about was did palpatine loose on purpose. Notice that this is the scene anakin turns to the darkside. If palpatine had killed windu anakin would not have turned, or at least not followed sidiouse.

As for windu being more powerful than yoda I think Yoda was stronger than sidiouse he lost because of 1 thing. sidiouse had the high ground yoda isnt stupid like anakin. Notice in the force lighting struggle how Yoda basicly thought "**** it" and over powerd palpatine but the force knocked them both back. sidiouse managed not to fall but yoda did. Therefore sidiouse gained the high ground and if yoda had jumped to continue the fight he would have been killed. And he couldnt go back because even yoda cant fight through an entire army and then palpatine.

..Mace shoulda had an afro...and a hand cannon.


on serious note - i never got a logical explanation to why Mace when he was Palpatine crying for mercy) raises his sabre about 5 feet in the air, allowing time for anakin to pretend to act, and 'then' swinging for palpatine. He coulda just stabbed him neatly in the heart and the galaxy is rid of one maniacally wrinkled evil guy...

Exanda kane>Bad directing.

I hear you guys, but it still seems more of an opinion than just refuting the facts. Of all the Jedi, Mace stood out as being the darkest from what I could tell. I don't read the expanded universe stuff, so have no idea nor am I interested in any non-Canon details, just the movie facts.

To answer the other question about the "the senate will decide your fate" comment, what I meant was that he says the senate will decide your fate, then, when Anakin wants to send him to the Senate, he's like, no, he owns the courts. Why would he say that if he knew it wasn't true. He should have said something like, 'the senate can't save you' or something to that effect. But one moment, he's all just, then he's ready to hack off Palpatine's head?

Think about it: Could Mace have actually gotten away with killing Palpatine who looked like a saint to the Republic, especially looking like an old decrepid Republican. It wouldn't have sunk well. The only way it would have worked is if he did stand trial. And even if the courts were rigged, the Jedi could have fought on another front.

I think Mace had some desires to be in control of things before he even found out that Palpatine was a Sith, hence the comment about "secure a peaceful transition, yada yada." Seemed to me that once the war was over, the rule was left open for somebody, and Mace damn sure wasn't gonna let Palpy have it.

Not saying this was the 100% case, but it's interesting to think about the character as having weaknesses, in this case, succumbing to the allure of absolute power, being known for being a powerful Jedi. Which falls back to the conversation that Anakin had with Palpatine. It's so interesting how well these topics reflected the current conditions in the film. The ending of the war, the rise to power, a discussion/philosophy between Anakin and Palpatine about power and all who crave it, lining up the players and such. You even have a jedi named Mace, who, if he could have it, would actually assume that position.

What if what Sidious said was true to a point. He knew that they would betray him because he knew that there would be some attempt to usurp his power, his fear, but ultimately a truth in the sense that someone eventually would want to take the power from him, despite how crooked his rise to power had been.

If it wasn't Palpatine, whoever was elected Senate was gonna have some BIIIG shoes to fill. I think it's safe to say that anyone put in that position after Palpatine would have been tempted by the Dark Side.

C'mon, Mace didn't goto the Dark Side. Palpatine was using deadly force against Mace, and Mace had every right to kill Palpatine for using the lightning against him!

Plus I assume they have the hologram recording of the fight, and everyone could see how Palpatine killed the other 3 Jedi in cold blood.

Who knows, maybe it's illegal in the Galaxy to be a Sith Lord, punishible by death!

In any case, the lights went out in the galaxy at that moment.

Originally posted by southtownbluz
One last post guys.

I was thinking about the argument of who is more powerful. I've always believed Mace to be the most powerful sword fighter while Yoda being the most powerful in the force. But if he wasn't, there's a reason why he could defeat Palps and Yoda couldn't.

"The Dark Side has made you powerful."

Mace was powered by the Dark Side during his battle with Palpatine. Here's proof:

1) Mace had no mercy for Palpatine. He was willing to slay him even in front of a Jedi Knight screaming for justice. He had no regard for his decision and its ramifications. Sure, it was done because he felt there was no other choice......or was there?

There are more clues to this in the film>>

2) Mace planned to take over the senate. Even Yoda noticed this:

"The Jedi council will have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition."
"To a dark place this line of thought will carry us."

3) His statement to Anakin just before he planned to strike Palpatine was a lie and not a true fear. Remember, just before fighting the chancellor he said:

"The Senate will decide your fate."
"I am the Senate."
"Not yet."

Why would he say that to Palpatine if he knew it wasn't true? It's more than bad writing on Lucas' part. It's just a lie. Mace was travelling down the path of the Dark Side.

He paid the ultimate price for it as well. There were three men consumed with darkness that night. Mace, Anakin and Palpatine. If Mace was merciful, he would have survived and the story might have taken another turn. Sure, Anakin might have freed him, but this would have given Mace the time to plan a strategy with the Jedi, especially with the knowledge that it was a Lord of the Sith in power. It could have been fixed.

But it didn't.

For once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.


On another note: Isn't it a strange sense of irony that in AOTC, Mace decapitated Jango with Dooku watching? The look on Dooku's face was one of horror. Perhaps he had seen a similar fate for himself in his nightmares???

What do you think?

If this has been discussed before, I'm sorry, but i've been gone for a few months.

Wow I never thought of that!

"To answer the other question about the "the senate will decide your fate" comment, what I meant was that he says the senate will decide your fate, then, when Anakin wants to send him to the Senate, he's like, no, he owns the courts. Why would he say that if he knew it wasn't true. He should have said something like, 'the senate can't save you' or something to that effect. But one moment, he's all just, then he's ready to hack off Palpatine's head?!

Simply because when Palpatine answered "I AM the Senate," Mace realised he was right.

Mace might not have gotten away with it, true. But it was still the right thing to do.

Sorry, but this whole line of reasoning is entirely silly. Mace is a champion of the Light Side trying to do the only thing that could be done- and eventually was. That is all there is to it. And don't be so naive! Either Mace or Palpatine was going to die at that point. There would have been no Mace surviving- Sidious needed him dead. A merciful Mace is a dead Mace.

The whole point of the scene is to precisely demonstrate that Sidious HAD to be killed- it is where the Saga leads.

And Dooku's look was not even remotely of horror! It was of "Oh well, so much for him."

I wouldn't go as far as saying that my observation is "naive." It's just an observation, nothing more. I hate when people get so emotionally involved with a subject that any differing opinion than what they believe something to be truth is considered stupid, naive or preposterous.

But anyways, thanks for your comments!

Secrets of Mace's fall?

Where's the secret in knowing that having a hand lopped off, being electrocuted and shoved out of a window is going to cause quite the fall.

lol Mace failed. Vaginapad or no Vaginapad his fighting style wasn't enough. Yes, yes.....the tears of despair from Mace fans sustains me.......

Damn....