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Sora Bulq was one of the greatest lightsaber instructors the Jedi order had ever known, perfecting the various forms of combat techniques, both classical and experimental. He even helped Mace Windu perfect the art of vaapad, the seventh form of lightsaber combat so intense and dangerous, that to practice it was to tread perilously close to the dark side.
Bulq admitted his transgression to Windu. His experimentation with vaapad was the gateway to the dark side. He had not mastered the deadly lightsaber form -- it had mastered him. The slaughter at Geonosis only exacerbated his descent. The Separatists had rescued Bulq and Count Dooku had personally approached him to spread a schism in the Jedi order. Bulq, disgusted with the Republic, agreed. He admired Dooku's initiative and drive, and believed him to be of a new generation of Jedi bred to rule.

I'm leaving it up to you though I will most likely put in some remarks.

Dooku's team owns.

In my opinion - Dooku or Sidious could take either of these on their own. Dooku couldn't take them both on and neither could Sidious. But pair them up any way you want, and either Sith would win their respective duel.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
In my opinion - Dooku or Sidious could take either of these on their own. Dooku couldn't take them both on and neither could Sidious. But pair them up any way you want, and either Sith would win their respective duel.

Damn str8

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
In my opinion - Dooku or Sidious could take either of these on their own. Dooku couldn't take them both on and neither could Sidious. But pair them up any way you want, and either Sith would win their respective duel.

Explains that we see Mace beating Sidious right, and if you were to be believed, Sidious is the master. Stop trying to tilt facts to your argument.

As a team, Sora is the weaklink and he will fall, before Mace gets powerdueled. But regardless, the Sith team wins.

I would like to address this "Mace vs. Sids" situation. Mace did not beat Sids fair and square. Sidious knew Anakin would save his life by killing Mace and thus driving the final dark side wedge into his soul. The reason Mace was having a hard time deflecting the lightining was

1. If you own KOTOR2 read on Juyo and it states there in black and white that if your character uses Juyo you will not do so good against those with force powers (like lightining) and we all know that "Vapaad" is an extension of Juyo.

2. Mace thought that he beat Sids and wasn't expecting to be assualted again.

I am sorry that everything points to it being very different from that. Mace kicked Sidious ass fair and square. One marjor reason was because by calling upon Vapaad he was able to "see" with the force Sidious attacks easier than Yoda or the other Jedi. The reason he was able to kill those three Jedi Masters so easily was because his abilty to hide himself "blinded" them to him. They were trying to fight with their regular senses that went against what they had been trained to do since childhood. The fact that Yoda faired so well against him is a testament to the little one's strength.

Mace could fight him like a regular opponet because of Vapaad. The reason Vapaad gives him such an advantage is because it calls upon the darkside for strength. This allowed him to "see" Sidious with the force, negating Sidious' greatest strength, deception. This isn't "cheap" or any of that crap. Negating your opponent's advantage is what fighting is all about. If it had been something that he had difficulty doing, then it may be considered "luck", but he was consistently able to do this, making him a Darkside-user ass kicker.

The Sith still win though. Although Mace could destroy either of them in a regular fight, Sora is to weak and will fail against Dooku, who I assume Sora will be fighting.

I think that ep3 showed us that being a legendary lightsaber instructor is not good enough when fighting the best of you age, because look at how fellow legend Cin Drallig got wasted by Anakin.

Dooku beats Sora, Sidious beats Windu.

Windu was Sids pawn for Anakin to turn.

amen Makashi.

No he wasn't. Let me give you guys some quote's off of starwars.com

"A respected Jedi on par with the venerable Yoda..."

"...He would be one of the few Jedi to return unscathed from that first engagement... at least physically. His spirit would suffer in the years that followed...."

Anakin ignited his lightsaber blade and sheared off Mace Windu's weapon hand before he could strike Palpatine.

"...Defenseless, Windu was bombarded with Sith lightning as Sidious unleashed a torrent of deadly energy at the Jedi Master. The forked bolts of lightning penetrated Mace's body, illuminating his form from within. The final blast bodily lifted him into the air, sending his form hurling into the Coruscant skies, to crash lifelessly somewhere in the vast cityscape below."




Although this does not say explictly either way what for sure happened, there are many useful points to be gained from this.

1. He is on par with Yoda. Yoda was on par with Sidious. If you say that Sidious was faking the fight with Yoda you can go hang yourself.

2. He was physicaly unhurt by the battle of Geonosis. To have been able to do what he did in that fight shows extensive capabilites even if other Jedi did the same. Out of 200 of most of the orders best, he was one of thirteen to survive.

3. Mace was about to kill Palpatine. Even Sdious had been faking the fight, there is no way that he would have been able to see the exact time that Anakin would crack to that detail. Another second and he would have died.

4. Finaly, Mace was fully aboe to block Sidious' lightning when he had his lightsaber and weapon hand. When Sidious killed him, he was missing both of these.



You guys need to offer up some "proof" or at least probable cause to Sidious having thrown the fight with Mace. No one has yet backed down my previous reasons for Mace being able to defeat Sidious either. =

Originally posted by Illustrious
Explains that we see Mace beating Sidious right, and if you were to be believed, Sidious is the master. Stop trying to tilt facts to your argument.

As a team, Sora is the weaklink and he will fall, before Mace gets powerdueled. But regardless, the Sith team wins.

This explains Illustrious, that you know jack about what I was talking about.

Sorgo pointed it out to me that if you compare how Sidious fought Mace and how he fought Yoda, he fought against Yoda using the Force and using tactics that showed him fighting harder, faster, and more aggressive.

If you can't notice that, you're damn blind. Now be quiet. This has nothing to do with me liking Sidious or prefering him. So stop making it out to be. You are a skilled person in a debate, but if you think you can read minds or know what I'm thinking, you definately need to keep that ego of yours in check.

If he went all out, YES, I believe Sidious could beat Mace.

Now if you will look on the Mace vs Kenobi thread, you will see that I admitted and argued with Sorgo that Mace beat Sidious fair and square. So really, Illustrious. Shut the hell up.

I completely agree with Glentract. Sidious' strongest power was not his lightning or saber, it was his manipulation. Though Sidious lost the duel, he won in the end due to deception, but Mace still beat him in a duel. Mace's form and connection to the Force give him advantages over someone. If anyone has played KotOR 2, you would understand Mace's fighting style is similar to the Sith Assassins. The darker the opponent Mace faces, the stronger his style becomes, similar to the Assassins. Mace's technique allows him to bathe in the darkness of his opponent, while not becoming overcome, and channel the energy into his fighting style. Add to that that Sidious was an extremely dark Force-user, and you already have a formidable defense against him. Add Shatterpoint, which is a technique Mace developed which allows the Force to point out weaknesses in the enemy's form, and Mace has too many advantages to simply be toyed around with an entire duel.

But to be contrary, Dooku and Sidious win this.

Whoa, whoa. You guys, there's no need for hostilities. This is a ridiculous thread as it is; you'd need Yoda to even the odds.

And Somebody, I believe that Sidious DID indeed go all out. However, under different circumstances, I believe that Sidious IS certainly capable of taking Mace's life.

Oh, and Se7in; you're giving Vaapad far too much quality and power against Dark Siders. It allows one to use basic, primal emotions, things that are tossed aside upon training as a Jedi. Anger, frustration, fear, etc. It does not wallow THAT deep into the darkness, although the release of such emotions can take over the weak-willed.

Glentract, I'm NOT saying Sidious faked or threw the fight.

Mace Windu defeated Sidious in his office. Sidious WAS obviously faking about him being weak and defenseless, but that was so he could save his own ass for his miscalculation and arrogance. Mace beat him. Fair and square. I argued with Sorgo on that. He doesn't think Mace beat him fairly, I KNOW otherwise.

If I have to drag up the posts to prove Illustrious wrong, I will.

But, like I said. Sorgo did point out to me how differently Sidious fought against Yoda and Mace. With Mace, he did not use the Force - up until he was disarmed. This proves Sidious miscalculated, and thought he could bank on his saber skills to sufficiently terminate Mace. He was wrong. His desperate move with the Force proved that.

But. With Yoda, he didn't take chances. You saw him and Yoda fight on an equal level. Both knew that the fight could go either way, and that one of them could end up dead. Sidious used the Force quite frequently. He and Yoda battled one another blow-for-blow on even ground with the saber. Sidious was like Dooku in the sense that he could not find a true advantage, so he tried to tip the odds firmly in his favor (not failure, lol). He already possessed a better knowledge of the terrain, so he decided to use it. Yoda still managed to keep up blow-for-blow.

Sidious then realized that fighting Yoda saber-to-saber was hopeless. They'd be at it for hours, and Sidious knew he had a hell of a lot to lose. He is a coward. Like Nute Gunray, he HAD to find the advantage. So he put distance between himself and Yoda, and went on the offensive. He chucked pods left and right. Yoda had to dodge them, and he did. Then Yoda flung one pod back at him. Sidious whirled away and landed on the pod. Yoda then tried to tip the odds back in HIS favor - and he followed Sidious. He ignited his lightsaber and attempted to kill Sidious. Sidious then blasted the saber from his hands, and then went back on the Force offensive. Yoda was forced to remain stationary. Sidious moved in for the kill, sensing Yoda's struggle. All Sidious had to do was keep blasting. Yoda had to repel it, or he would be overloaded. Especially with Sidious moving closer.

So. Yoda moved his arms back, and hurled the coiled lightning back at Sidious. The blow flung Yoda farther for two reasons.

1. He weighs less than Sidious.
2. He was closer to the edge.

Sidious managed to right himself. Yoda's grip faltered and he fell. There was then too much distance between them. Palpatine had the high ground. Yoda had no saber. Sidious may or may not still have had his, and he had the advantage in the following.

1. Possible lightsaber.
2. Offensive Force powers.
3. Knowledge of the terrain.
4. Possible support (i.e Clones)
5. High ground

Yoda had NO advantage by that point and decided it would be best to live and fight another day.

In conclusion. Both combatants went all out on eachother. Sidious's goal was to survive. Yoda's goal was to kill Sidious. Yoda failed in his goal, but the battle was and remains a stalemate. Both combatants were the respected "patriarch" or paragon of either sides of the Force, light and dark.

Yoda could NOT have won at that time and place. Sidious was, as the site said, in that situation TOO POWERFUL FOR YODA TO DEFEAT.

But NO. Sidious WAS NOT going easy on Yoda.

Sorry Faunus. But Illustrious has no right to make assumptions and statements that he doesn't know about. He is trying to make this an argument on whether or not I believe Sidious was faking. I have proof to state that I do not, and this is one argument Illustrious won't win. So I urge him not to make it.

I don't even know what the two of you were arguing about. . . . and there should be absolutely nothing to debate here, anyways. This thread is mediocre at best. But I see what is going on here, so proceed.

Oh no! Not the Mace and Sidious thing again!

im going with sora bulq

sith