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alright, in this new uproar of f4 threads, many people are saying that the fantastic four are marvels unbeatable team. that no team can beat them. how do these x-men do against the fantastic four.

storm
polaris
emma frost
psylock

VS

Invisable Woman
The Thing
Mr. Fantastic
The Human Torch

no prep, set in an abandoned city

Originally posted by stormfront13
alright, in this new uproar of f4 threads, many people are saying that the fantastic four are marvels unbeatable team. that no team can beat them. how do these x-men do against the fantastic four.


Simple. They loose. Ain't no team of X-men beating the fantastic four.

Whats the fascination with the X-Men beating the F4? I thought it was clear that the X-Men fight evil mutants while the F4 are Earth's firsts line of Defense against comsic and interdimensional threats.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Whats the fascination with the X-Men beating the F4? I thought it was clear that the X-Men fight evil mutants while the F4 are Earth's firsts line of Defense against comsic and interdimensional threats. Dont you mean Reed Richards is the Earths first line of defense against cosmic and interdimensional threats. The other three are just along for the ride.

Imagine if Reed was the leader of the X-men....................

No I don't mean that at all. The Thing was a competent leader of the F4 and so was Invisible Woman. IW was still the leader when they first fought Hyperstorm. Reed was there but he wasn't leading the team. What if Reed were the leader of the X-Men? I don't get it. I think you have an inflated view of the X-Men. The F4 are generally more powerful than the X-Men.

If they fought based on their powers alone the X-men should be able to beat the FF.

The only reason the FF win most of their conflicts is due to some device or machine that Reed keeps in his pocket.

Originally posted by Wynndar
The F4 are generally more powerful than the X-Men.

yeah, I think you mean with prep-time

Originally posted by snoopdogg
If they fought based on their powers alone the X-men should be able to beat the FF.

The only reason the FF win most of their conflicts is due to some device or machine that Reed keeps in his pocket.

well you're entitled to your opinion. But that leads me to think you don't know much about the F4's powers. Based on their powers IW can protect the team, which she does frequently, and either she or her brother could single handedly over power or destroy that whole team of X-Men.

Originally posted by stormfront13
yeah, I think you mean with prep-time

I'm not referring to prep time at all. When the Torch displays the upper limits of his powers he has over powered Graviton and burned through planets. Galactus called his power deadly when he attempted a supernova on him. U realize the Torch almost destroyed the Earth once when he was being controlled by a maniac? No because you haven't read much F4. IW has broken through the armor of Exitar and destroyed his physical manifestation. When Angry, she effortlessly put a huge invisible battering ram all the way through Galactus' chest! When the Thing was able to change back and forth from Ben Grimm, his Thing form retaliated by reproducing itself hundreds of times into an army of Things that would have destroyed the FF, Avengers, X-Men, and the rest of civilization, if not for the intervention of a highly evolved omnipotent piece of the Thing's skin. The Thing gas also held his own against the Hulk, Champion of the Universe, Terrax, Wrecker, Ronin the Accuser, Occulus, Blackbolt, etc. People who normally take on more teams and who individually possess more power than this whole team of X-Men. Reed has fought Doom, Namor, and Crucible one on one. He generally comes up with the means to defeat incalculably powerful enemies like the Dreaming Celestial. But if you read F4 comics, you would know they routinely fight and defeat powerful teams and individuals of superior magnitude than the X-Men.

Originally posted by Wynndar
well you're entitled to your opinion. But that leads me to think you don't know much about the F4's powers. Based on their powers IW can protect the team, which she does frequently, and either she or her brother could single handedly over power or destroy that whole team of X-Men.

ha ha ha ha, yeah, IW couldn't take this whole team, and her brother gets punked by storm easy.



really? when jean grey shows the upper limits of her powers, she blinks and almost everything is destroyed. when storm shows the upper-most of her powers, she could destroy the planet and make it unlivable. when xavier shows the upmost of his powers he could kill almost everyone on the planet. same goes for polaris and iceman. galactus may think torch is powerful, but he gets killed by phoenix who is an x-man and always will be. when angry, phoenix threatens all of existance, and when angry, storm could destroy the world. yeah, 100's of thngs did that, not one. storm has fought doom, and he was scared of her.

Well I guess debating with you is pointless. The Torch is beaten by storm because he doesnt want to hurt her. He has already almost killed her, and that was an accident and with his lowest level of flame. The Torch HAS almost destroyed the Earth...he has actually changed its shape. I've never seen Storm effect the entire planet. Regardless effecting the weather on the whole plane is highly less impressive than blowing a hole through it. Jean Grey is highly powerful. Almost as powerful as IW. However using the EXTERNAL power of the Phoenix she is one of the most powerful humans ever. That is not under her own power though. All you've done is regurgitate information an 8 year old could decipher from watching the X-Men cartoon. However, since you know little about the F4, you were oblivious to the information I told you. It is obvious that the FF are more powerful than X-Men. Thats why memebers of the F4 can take on big opponents all on their own. Storm couldnt fight Devos, Lyja, and Paibok all on her own. Torch took them on and overpowered them.

Originally posted by stormfront13
ha ha ha ha, yeah, IW couldn't take this whole team, and her brother gets punked by storm easy.



really? when jean grey shows the upper limits of her powers, she blinks and almost everything is destroyed. when storm shows the upper-most of her powers, she could destroy the planet and make it unlivable. when xavier shows the upmost of his powers he could kill almost everyone on the planet. same goes for polaris and iceman. galactus may think torch is powerful, but he gets killed by phoenix who is an x-man and always will be. when angry, phoenix threatens all of existance, and when angry, storm could destroy the world. yeah, 100's of thngs did that, not one. storm has fought doom, and he was scared of her.

gibberish

And what happened to your argument about prep time? U assume the F4 need prep time since you don't read F4, u just HEARD they use a lot of prep time. I demonstrated those examples and you didnt respond to that at all...just changes the subject to how powerful the X-Men COULD be.

Originally posted by Wynndar
And what happened to your argument about prep time? U assume the F4 need prep time since you don't read F4, u just HEARD they use a lot of prep time. I demonstrated those examples and you didnt respond to that at all...just changes the subject to how powerful the X-Men COULD be.

Indeed

And Phoenix doesn't kill Galactus except in the minds of two people on this board Whereas Krona does

Yea but thats from a story of relatively poor quality compared to examples from actual Marvel comics in continuity.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Yea but thats from a story of relatively poor quality compared to examples from actual Marvel comics in continuity.


Busiek writing, Perez art superb

Originally posted by Wynndar
Well I guess debating with you is pointless. The Torch is beaten by storm because he doesnt want to hurt her. He has already almost killed her, and that was an accident and with his lowest level of flame. The Torch HAS almost destroyed the Earth...he has actually changed its shape. I've never seen Storm effect the entire planet. Regardless effecting the weather on the whole plane is highly less impressive than blowing a hole through it. Jean Grey is highly powerful. Almost as powerful as IW. However using the EXTERNAL power of the Phoenix she is one of the most powerful humans ever. That is not under her own power though. All you've done is regurgitate information an 8 year old could decipher from watching the X-Men cartoon. However, since you know little about the F4, you were oblivious to the information I told you. It is obvious that the FF are more powerful than X-Men. Thats why memebers of the F4 can take on big opponents all on their own. Storm couldnt fight Devos, Lyja, and Paibok all on her own. Torch took them on and overpowered them.

and debating with you is pointless, because you are overly biased to the f4. the torch can;t hurt storm. a pressure dome would protect her from his attacks. storm could just as easily kill torch. and because you haven't seen storm affect the entire lanet doesn't mean it hasn't happened. you aren't an avid reader of the x-men anyway. omg, i can't believe you just said jean was almost as powerful as IW. jean would absolutley kill IW. no questions asked, IW is a little ant compared to jean. the phoenix isn't an outside force for jean, the pf is jeans ultimate mutation. they are one. even w/out the pf, jean easily betas sue. it is obvious that the x-men are more powerful than the f4. iceman alone could take the f4.

Im not attacking the writers...they did their best. But the story arcs in F4 and X-Men have often taken years to develop ie when Defalco or Byrne were writing.

There are like SIX of these threads now, I'm convinced if you put phoenix on the damned team they'd still lose

xmen are nothing to the FF dammit!!!!

Originally posted by Wynndar
Im not attacking the writers...they did their best. But the story arcs in F4 and X-Men have often taken years to develop ie when Defalco or Byrne were writing.

Continuity v Byrne

Continuity always loses.

The man who created so many hole in continuity means they will never be tied up. Funniest was his 2 origins of the Vision.

Serious Whirly for a minute If you have ever read his "Next Men" book, where he had a column called "a flame about this high", you will realise what a bitter man he is

check it out

Originally posted by stormfront13
and debating with you is pointless, because you are overly biased to the f4. the torch can;t hurt storm. a pressure dome would protect her from his attacks. storm could just as easily kill torch. and because you haven't seen storm affect the entire lanet doesn't mean it hasn't happened. you aren't an avid reader of the x-men anyway. omg, i can't believe you just said jean was almost as powerful as IW. jean would absolutley kill IW. no questions asked, IW is a little ant compared to jean. the phoenix isn't an outside force for jean, the pf is jeans ultimate mutation. they are one. even w/out the pf, jean easily betas sue. it is obvious that the x-men are more powerful than the f4. iceman alone could take the f4.

Torch has never fired Nova flame at Storm...It would kill her. Even his weakest flame would kill her. He grazed her on accident and she nearly died. THE TORCH BLEW A HOLE THROUGH THE EARTH AND INCREASED THE TEMPERATURE OF THE CORE CAUSING THE PLANET TO EXPAND AND U THINK A PRESSURE DOME WOULD PROTECT STORM FROM THAT?!!!??!?!?!?. Im an F4 fan I'll admit. But ur an utter fanboy. PF and JG's natural powers r two different things...saying they are connected by destiny is simply that writers vision. Anyone can use resoning to prove otherwise. F4 are Marvel's most effective team. The X-Men are evil mutant crime fighters and their comics are awesome. I do read X-Men, I grew up reading Uncanny X-Men and Wolverine was my favorite in 5th grade. I still buy all Uncanny and X-Men...but I avoid buying Astonishing X-Men and the other titles...I just read through them when Im in the store. So I'd be happy to debate with you if you could come up with some support from the comic books instead of saying how "OBVIOUS" it is that the X-Men would win even though they have a huge roster and routinely fight less powerful villains than the FF.

I honestly like the xmen more as street level guys anyway it was more interesting than everyone becoming godlike...

The Torch doesnt unleash his powers on earthly level foes and certainly not heroines like Storm. But a good example was in the infinity war crossover F4 #370. Magus sends evil clones of the X-Men and dozens of other heroes to fight the F4. He is in an aerial battle and outnumbered. So he starts tagging them with nova flame. One of the First one's is Storm and she is killed instantly.

Yes, that is the problem the FF are clearly more powerful, but are bound by CIS, thats the ONLY way they'd lose.
I dont believe a fight to the death was specified, thats the only reason this is more of a match.
Same ol discussion as last night, that I have little interest in delving into again,lol.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Yes, that is the problem the FF are clearly more powerful, but are bound by CIS, thats the ONLY way they'd lose.
I dont believe a fight to the death was specified, thats the only reason this is more of a match.
Same ol discussion as last night, that I have little interest in delving into again,lol. No kidding.

You know I stayed on till six am man, I feel like a zombie...

8 a.m. here...

Wait, so you live in britan somewhere?

My timezones are off...

Its 6:30 pm right now...

Yeah.

I don't mean it's 8 now, I mean I was on til 8 a.m.

It's 23:35.

Almost midnight then for you...

I slept most of the day...

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Indeed

And Phoenix doesn't kill Galactus except in the minds of two people on this board Kill Galactus? pssh, no way in hell.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Torch has never fired Nova flame at Storm...It would kill her. Even his weakest flame would kill her. He grazed her on accident and she nearly died. THE TORCH BLEW A HOLE THROUGH THE EARTH AND INCREASED THE TEMPERATURE OF THE CORE CAUSING THE PLANET TO EXPAND AND U THINK A PRESSURE DOME WOULD PROTECT STORM FROM THAT?!!!??!?!?!?. Im an F4 fan I'll admit. But ur an utter fanboy. PF and JG's natural powers r two different things...saying they are connected by destiny is simply that writers vision. Anyone can use resoning to prove otherwise. F4 are Marvel's most effective team. The X-Men are evil mutant crime fighters and their comics are awesome. I do read X-Men, I grew up reading Uncanny X-Men and Wolverine was my favorite in 5th grade. I still buy all Uncanny and X-Men...but I avoid buying Astonishing X-Men and the other titles...I just read through them when Im in the store. So I'd be happy to debate with you if you could come up with some support from the comic books instead of saying how "OBVIOUS" it is that the X-Men would win even though they have a huge roster and routinely fight less powerful villains than the FF.

i never said a nove blast wouldn't kill her, I thought we were talking about just a regular blast which would have not affected her if she were in a pressure dome. once again, jean grey's ultimate mutation is the pf. if she were at her highest she would be the phoenix. that's the way it is. talk to galactic, he knows more about it than I do, but you know nothing of the subject. storm, polaris, emma frost, and psylock can beat the f4. it could go either way, but imo the x-women win more times than not. if it were bloodlust, then I believe that it would come down to who attacks first. and about killing galactus, I didn't mean actually kill him, I was just sayig that to show her power. but if you put a certain team of x-men against the f4, then the x-men could win.

u make is sound as if FF is the most powerful team in Marvel..and not just a team...what's next the Torch becomes the new superman..yeah right...

Originally posted by Wynndar
I still buy all Uncanny and X-Men...but I avoid buying Astonishing X-Men and the other titles...
Why do you buy Uncanny but avoid Astonishing? Astonishing is way better.

why does everybody get so ****ing pissy when x-men versus fantastic four comes up?

inevitably, everyone mentions how pissed they are that the x-men got powerful. what the ****? how in the world can that piss you off? what about the x-men makes you think that it is a travesty whenever they increase in power? is there some sort of unwritten law that claremont broke when he decided that some mutants should grow in power? i admit, claremont blows, but mutants growing in power isn't any stupider than thing going from class 5 back in the day to class 100 now, or superman going from jumping to flying lightspeed.

rant...terminated.

astonishing x-men is a better comic than anything fantastic four has done for years.

and ps: colossus>thing
jean>IW

Wow.... why are you spazzing about jean grey again ? I dont' recall her being in the emma frost/polaris/psyclocke/storm group. If you're gonna add people in the battle then at least change your first post too.

Originally posted by hoorayforpeepee
why does everybody get so ****ing pissy when x-men versus fantastic four comes up?

inevitably, everyone mentions how pissed they are that the x-men got powerful. what the ****? how in the world can that piss you off? what about the x-men makes you think that it is a travesty whenever they increase in power? is there some sort of unwritten law that claremont broke when he decided that some mutants should grow in power? i admit, claremont blows, but mutants growing in power isn't any stupider than thing going from class 5 back in the day to class 100 now, or superman going from jumping to flying lightspeed.

rant...terminated.

and ps: colossus>thing
jean>IW
I agree completely. The X-Men have had their upgrades, but so have the FF.

But in THIS fight... I don't know... I give it to the FF. But a better fight would be FF vs Colossus, Cyclops, Storm and Bishop.

(I am not including Xavier and Iceman, because the FF wouldn't stand a chance if they were included).

Originally posted by Trolt
Wow.... why are you spazzing about jean grey again ? I dont' recall her being in the emma frost/polaris/psyclocke/storm group. If you're gonna add people in the battle then at least change your first post too.

if you are refering to me, I never added jean grey in the battle. I was only responding to the fact that AC said that jean isn't as powerful as sue, but really jeans pinkey could beat sue easy. try and get your fact straight before replying.



I agree 100% with you. mutants powers naturally grow, they never stay the same, but keep growing. when they finally do get a little stronger everybody complains. wtf is that? then they go and think the f4 are the best when they have gotten huge up-grades as well. i mean look at the thing from the beginning, and him now, same with sue. they are a ton more powerful, but everyone loves them. that is very hyporitical.

Originally posted by stormfront13
if you are refering to me, I never added jean grey in the battle. I was only responding to the fact that AC said that jean isn't as powerful as sue, but really jeans pinkey could beat sue easy. try and get your fact straight before replying.



I agree 100% with you. mutants powers naturally grow, they never stay the same, but keep growing. when they finally do get a little stronger everybody complains. wtf is that? then they go and think the f4 are the best when they have gotten huge up-grades as well. i mean look at the thing from the beginning, and him now, same with sue. they are a ton more powerful, but everyone loves them. that is very hyporitical. A little stronger yeah that rights they only got a little stronger.
I like the X-Men or did anyways. They grow I understand that. I understood Colossus couls get stronger. Kitty could get stronger but I don't feel they should have gotten three four times stronger than what they were.

they haven't gotten 3 or 4 times more powerful, they are closer to their full potential.

Originally posted by stormfront13
they haven't gotten 3 or 4 times more powerful, they are closer to their full potential. Oh yeah Storm can now take over the world to some. Magneto is a god.
Wolverine well look at him.
Cyclops is one of Marvels best leaders.
Scarlet Witch
Colossus's strength levels
Yeah these are not all that powerful right.
Emma Frost can now use telepathy in Diamond form.
Then there is Jean Grey as well.
the list goes on and on of mutants that are now Godly in Power or at least triple what they were.

you missunderstood me, their overall power didn't increase, they just are closer to their full potential.

x-fanboys just want to see their favorite little heroes win.....

try this kids:
Fantastic Four versus Pheonix, Professor X, Storm, Shadowcat.
Now X-Men win.

happy now children?

Originally posted by stormfront13
you missunderstood me, their overall power didn't increase, they just are closer to their full potential. Thier full potential changes alot and for some reason that full potential seems to be way above what their orginal power levels were.

I think that if storm magnified polaris's magentism w/ lightning and emma amped Psy's teke the X-women would win, Lorna and Bets r extremely powerful to begin with anyway

At first, Invisible Girl was only able to turn invisible and now she is a very powerful and dangerous opponent, and Thing was MUCH more weaker than now (now he's almost class 100). That's a big upgrade in my book.

The FF are great, but they can bite the dust like anybody else. And losing from the X-Men is nothing to be ashamed of.

(Something else: did anybody read that recent story about the poker evening of the FF together with Spider-Man, Black Cat, Angel, Doctor Strange and the Kingpin - funny story).

Originally posted by newjak86
Thier full potential changes alot and for some reason that full potential seems to be way above what their orginal power levels were.

well yeah, obviously their full potential is way abov their first power levels? when you first start out at a sport, and have never ever played, and have no clue what to do and are very confused about it will you be at the best of your ability in a couple of years? your skill will grow and grow over the yeasr. it's the same way with mutants. they are very bad at first, but over a long period of time they get a lot better until they finally reach full potential.

Stormfront, why are you of the assumption that you are in a position to call anyone biased? Genuine question.

-AC

everyone here has called me biased because I have said storm loses like 4 or 5 times, and that the x-men lose like 2 or 3 times. I have never seen him say the f4 will lose. and the fact that he said he was a fanboy

The thing is, you are actually horribly biased. You hardly ever concede a straight up X-Men loss. Ever. You almost always add on some pointless BS starting with "Unless...".

No. Unless nothing. I haven't said the F4 will lose against the X-Men because they won't. I'd say that whether I liked them or not. Just like I'd say Dark Phoenix would beat Deadpool, despite Deadpool being one of my favs.

-AC

usually in an x-men fight there is an unless.....because of all the variables. you are the only person here who tink the x-men don't stand any chance against the x-men.

All the "variables" that only exist to idiotic X-Fans who want them to win because they really, really like them.

-AC

actually variables that exist to anyone with sence. you think that you are always right, and that's why you don't consider variables

This is going nowhere... how about throwing some hard facts on the table ?

why bother, AC is the most stubborn person person here and refuses to look at the facts, so it's easier for him to say the x-men lose

Originally posted by who?-kid
This is going nowhere... how about throwing some hard facts on the table ?

Originally posted by stormfront13
why bother, AC is the most stubborn person person here and refuses to look at the facts, so it's easier for him to say the x-men lose

I look at the facts, I look at what's there. I'm not going by who I like, nor am I denying that the X-Men have been upgraded.

I'm saying they would still lose and I've shown why, countless times in other threads.

There's no point me debating with a fanboy.

-AC

no, you have said that the ff win because that's who they are. they're the f4, so they win. you haven't described any way for them to win.

I've never said that in anyway. Ever.

Creshosk tried saying I did, but then he tries saying that everyone says stuff they didn't. Despite proving it. The F4 have a reputation but I'd never give them the win on it. I'm no X-Fan.

-AC

fine, if you never said it then where is your exp,anation as to how they win?

Originally posted by stormfront13
why bother, AC is the most stubborn person person here and refuses to look at the facts, so it's easier for him to say the x-men lose
That's what makes her sexy.. IF ONLY SOMEONE COULD TAME HER!

...


I'll need prep time..

Originally posted by stormfront13
fine, if you never said it then where is your exp,anation as to how they win?

In the multiple pages of every other X-Men/F4 thread.

-AC

no not really, you weren't saying anything except that you have proof(isn't proof at all) that sue is faster than emma, which she isn't

Sue proved she was faster in X4

She proved she could attack Emma faster than Emma could finish her sentence. But that's about it.

Wolverine's proved he could beat Magneto as well...

Originally posted by demigawd
She proved she could attack Emma faster than Emma could finish her sentence. But that's about it.

HAHAHA...U know how Emma operates. She knew what was going on IW's head. She is simply not a real combatant...she's just a teacher.

I thought I'd see for myself what this big battle between Emma and Sue was so I had a look at X4. Anyone who think that constitutes any form of proof that Sue is faster than Emma is deluding themself. It did confirm however that the immunity to telepathy that FF backers were implying Sue had earlier on doesn't exist.

Originally posted by Wynndar
HAHAHA...U know how Emma operates. She knew what was going on IW's head. She is simply not a real combatant...she's just a teacher.

Before that she was a member of the Hellfire Club and quite used to getting her hands dirty. She beat Rachel in telepathic combat. Owned her, actually. Made her look like an amateur.

Trust me, Emma is no slouch. She just got caught pontificating. Not a factor in this fight.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I thought I'd see for myself what this big battle between Emma and Sue was so I had a look at X4. Anyone who think that constitutes any form of proof that Sue is faster than Emma is deluding themself. It did confirm however that the immunity to telepathy that FF backers were implying Sue had earlier on doesn't exist.

I dont know who implied Emma getting punked by IW demonstrated immunity to TP for IW. I would suggest the fights between IW and Psi-Lord served as evidence that she can block TP.

Originally posted by demigawd
Before that she was a member of the Hellfire Club and quite used to getting her hands dirty. She beat Rachel in telepathic combat. Owned her, actually. Made her look like an amateur.

Trust me, Emma is no slouch. She just got caught pontificating. Not a factor in this fight.

Yea...the Hellfire Club. So where are you going with this? That was around the same time the F4 fought Galactus again right?

Originally posted by Wynndar
I dont know who implied Emma getting punked by IW demonstrated immunity to TP for IW. I would suggest the fights between IW and Psi-Lord served as evidence that she can block TP.


Never read the fight. What happened?



It wasn't that long ago. She was a member until the early 90s when she founded the Hellions. And that's only a few years Marvel time, jeez. She didn't forget how to fight, and she certainly wouldn't forget "mindblast!"

Immunity with or without a (plot) device?
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/anticryste/emmaff.jpg
She doesn't look all that immune to me and Emma isn't even trying to hurt anyone...
Yep she was White Queen around the time the FF went up against Galactus with nothing but their powers and won? Oh wait remind me - that happened when?

if everybody believes f4 was so good, then sue doesn't have tp immunity

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Immunity with or without a (plot) device?
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/anticryste/emmaff.jpg
She doesn't look all that immune to me and Emma isn't even trying to hurt anyone...
Yep she was White Queen around the time the FF went up against Galactus with nothing but their powers and won? Oh wait remind me - that happened when? reminds me of what the wolvie fans do with every little spiderman match.

READING IS FUNDAMENTAL PEOPLE!!!!

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Immunity with or without a (plot) device?
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/anticryste/emmaff.jpg
She doesn't look all that immune to me and Emma isn't even trying to hurt anyone...
Yep she was White Queen around the time the FF went up against Galactus with nothing but their powers and won? Oh wait remind me - that happened when? And that was through sue's forcefeild too.

exactly, looks like sue isn't as immune as everyone thought

Originally posted by stormfront13
if everybody believes f4 was so good, then sue doesn't have tp immunity

I don't think it's "everyone". Just a pretty vocal minority. The X-men are pretty clearly the favorites on all of these threads, if you read through them.

well i said everyone because I didn't wanna name all the people that think she does.

It's not a long list.

Originally posted by stormfront13
well i said everyone because I didn't wanna name all the people that think she does. She doesn't I never said she did but Sue has knocked out Emma before and the only Plot Device in it was Emma was talking not ver favorable to her if you ask me. It isn't like Sue was wearing a helemt that stops Emma's Power.
It was talking and as a telepath she should have seen it coming.

Originally posted by newjak86
She doesn't I never said she did but Sue has knocked out Emma before and the only Plot Device in it was Emma was talking not ver favorable to her if you ask me. It isn't like Sue was wearing a helemt that stops Emma's Power.
It was talking and as a telepath she should have seen it coming. It was still a cheap shot though...

Its a suckerpunch, anyway you slice it.

I could suckerpunch bruce lee, does that mean I'd kick his ass, no not really.

Yes it was but does it change the fact that you posses the power to take bruce lee out in one shot with what you can normally do.

Originally posted by newjak86
She doesn't I never said she did but Sue has knocked out Emma before and the only Plot Device in it was Emma was talking not ver favorable to her if you ask me. It isn't like Sue was wearing a helemt that stops Emma's Power.
It was talking and as a telepath she should have seen it coming.

alright

1)where did I say that you thought she had immunity to tp? I didn't, so no need to accuse me of saying I did.

2) emma doesn't have pre-cog. she can't see the future so how would she know an attack was coming? she has trained herself to not read a persons thoughts, how would you know if she was even reading sue's thoughts in the first place to say that emma knew the attack was coming?

Originally posted by stormfront13
alright

1)where did I say that you thought she had immunity to tp? I didn't, so no need to accuse me of saying I did.

2) emma doesn't have pre-cog. she can't see the future so how would she know an attack was coming? she has trained herself to not read a persons thoughts, how would you know if she was even reading sue's thoughts in the first place to say that emma knew the attack was coming? Never said you did just saw what you guys were talking about and wanted to make it clear I didn't feel the same way.
Also as a telepath Emma should have been able to see that Sue was planning to attack because Sue would have had to think about it first.

It's possible she saw it coming, but Sue had a head start on an offensive, and while Sue is most likely slower to the draw than Emma overall, Sue is fast enough to get the drop on Emma mid-pontification. It was probably like,

Emma: blah blah blah
*mental alert, Sue is about to attack*
Emma: Aw shi...

Like i said Sue is fast. Not as fast as Emma, but if she has a head start, she can take her out. She had a head start.

Originally posted by newjak86
Also as a telepath Emma should have been able to see that Sue was planning to attack because Sue would have had to think about it first.

it's not a telepaths nature to read a persons thoughts 24/7. lorna has suprised jean, storm has suprised jean, storm has suprised xavier. when storm was like 10 she stole xaviers wallet, he didn't notice right away because he wasn't automatically reading everyones thoughts in the area. at lorna's wedding, none of the telepaths saw her attack coming because they weren't reading her thoughts. it's not something they always do.

Originally posted by newjak86
Yes it was but does it change the fact that you posses the power to take bruce lee out in one shot with what you can normally do. Bruce lee could also see it coming, but its a cheapshot.

Now make it a cage match one on one, will I win?

Originally posted by newjak86

It was talking and as a telepath she should have seen it coming. Except that she was probably too busy thinking about what to say to pay attention.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Bruce lee could also see it coming, but its a cheapshot.

Now make it a cage match one on one, will I win? If you posses the power to take him down in one blow could you not possibly win.

Telepaths normally don't read minds but Emma was in combat so to speak she was about to attack Sue it isn't like Sue and her were at a party then Sue attacked.

Emma wasn't focused on reading her mind, she was busy talking

Originally posted by stormfront13
Emma wasn't focused on reading her mind, she was busy talking It's called multi tasking and Emma probably wasn't but still she is a telepath in a fight she should be using that ability at all times if she can't then she isn't that powerful if she can be distracted.

Originally posted by newjak86
It's called multi tasking and Emma probably wasn't but still she is a telepath in a fight she should be using that ability at all times if she can't then she isn't that powerful if she can be distracted. Should be, but wasn't, cause sue needed to take the win for the plot.

Which of course makes Sue look worse in theis respect as well.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Should be, but wasn't, cause sue needed to take the win for the plot.

Which of course makes Sue look worse in theis respect as well.

ditto

Why are you all ignoring the fact that Emma f*cked up and lost as a result?

-AC

Originally posted by newjak86
If you posses the power to take him down in one blow could you not possibly win.

Telepaths normally don't read minds but Emma was in combat so to speak she was about to attack Sue it isn't like Sue and her were at a party then Sue attacked.

Well I don't think its happening one on one,

now if its a match with 3 others on both teams, there can be a distraction for either side, THEN I could get him sneakily.

But a sucker punch isn't a good reference for a fight...

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Well I don't think its happening one on one,

now if its a match with 3 others on both teams, there can be a distraction for either side, THEN I could get him sneakily.

But a sucker punch isn't a good reference for a fight... Exactly this is a team fight and thus a sneak attack is vaible and possible in this thread.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Why are you all ignoring the fact that Emma f*cked up and lost as a result?

-AC

no ones really ignoring it as much as disagreeing with it

Exactly.

Disagreeing with it because you don't like it despite there being no reason to other than because it features one of your favourite people getting punked.

-AC

Originally posted by newjak86
Exactly this is a team fight and thus a sneak attack is vaible and possible in this thread. Thats why I'm caught inbetween, but thats the point, you have CIS a factor too.

I was saying a suckerpunch means little, because noones going to be talking in a fight like that.

Originally posted by stormfront13
no ones really ignoring it as much as disagreeing with it Because you choose not to accept because if you do then it is more then possible the X-Men loose even though it is as likey a possibility maybe less maybe more as Emma mind wiping everyone.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Exactly.

Disagreeing with it because you don't like it despite there being no reason to other than because it features one of your favourite people getting punked.

-AC

if it was a straight up fighgt, then I'd accept it. but emma was having a conversation with sue, and suye attacked. it was a cheap shot and emma wasn't fighting sue

Originally posted by newjak86
Because you choose not to accept because if you do then it is more then possible the X-Men loose even though it is as likey a possibility maybe less maybe more as Emma mind wiping everyone.

if it was a straight up fighgt, then I'd accept it. but emma was having a conversation with sue, and sue attacked. it was a cheap shot and emma wasn't fighting sue

Cheap shot? How do you cheap shot a telepath? By being faste...oh yeah.

Emma f*cked up and got punked for it. Accept it.

-AC

Originally posted by stormfront13
if it was a straight up fighgt, then I'd accept it. but emma was having a conversation with sue, and sue attacked. it was a cheap shot and emma wasn't fighting sue Yet she was in combat with Sue she wasn't attacking but she was still fighting if you will. Sue hit Emma with one attack and that was all that was needed to beat her. IUf you want to look at it any further than it really takes away from Emma the fact that she wasn't able to keep her defence up while she thought she had the upperhand. Meaning that if she can be so easily distracted once and not able to summon her power than it is likely to happen again and with someone in a fight that can take her out in one blow it is likely Emma can become a non factor quickly.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Cheap shot? How do you cheap shot a telepath? By being faste...oh yeah.

Emma f*cked up and got punked for it. Accept it.

-AC

1)it's easy to fake a telepath. storm as a 8 10 year old did and was laughing

2)yeah, emma f*cked up but it wasn't a fight

It was a fight.

I understand you don't like it, or obviously believe that there is one kind of fight, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a fight. Sue came out on top. I'm not sitting here trying to make you accept it because you won't will you? But it's true.

-AC

Originally posted by newjak86
Yet she was in combat with Sue she wasn't attacking but she was still fighting if you will. Sue hit Emma with one attack and that was all that was needed to beat her. IUf you want to look at it any further than it really takes away from Emma the fact that she wasn't able to keep her defence up while she thought she had the upperhand. Meaning that if she can be so easily distracted once and not able to summon her power than it is likely to happen again and with someone in a fight that can take her out in one blow it is likely Emma can become a non factor quickly. 9

only sue was fighting, emma was talking. hardly combat. yeah, sue is one of the most powerful people in marvel. she only needs one shot to take down a lot of people. what defense dopes emma have besides going to diamond form which she wasn't in this fight? she wasn't keeping up a defense.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It was a fight.

I understand you don't like it, or obviously believe that there is one kind of fight, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a fight. Sue came out on top. I'm not sitting here trying to make you accept it because you won't will you? But it's true.

-AC

you can call it what you want, but emma wasn't fighting, so it can hardly be called a fight

That's her fault, not Sue's.

Don't subtract Sue's victory in the circumstance just because Emma let her guard down. It's her fault, not Sue's. Of course, you'll give Emma the benefit coz she's an X-Woman.

-AC

One person talking and the other attacking is a straight up fight?

That explains sooo much. . .

There is more than one kind of "fight".

Creshosk, read posts. Not what you think is there.

-AC

Originally posted by newjak86
Yet she was in combat with Sue she wasn't attacking but she was still fighting if you will.

I still fail to see how this applies here, since the match is to the best of BOTH teams abilities.

Thats like saying, "wolverine beat sabretooth,by throwing him off guard", it doesn't mean the same thing.

Originally posted by newjak86
Sue hit Emma with one attack and that was all that was needed to beat her. Likewise, and it takes considerably less time to construct and construe a mind blast, than it does to make a force field.

Why, because the bubble is contingent on the targeting, which is contingent on the thought itself that it derives from.

Originally posted by newjak86
IUf you want to look at it any further than it really takes away from Emma the fact that she wasn't able to keep her defence up while she thought she had the upperhand.

This is the thing, its doesn't apply here.

Its like me saying,"spiderman beat venom with a sonic gun", but if spiderman doesn't have the gun, then its hardly worth mentioning.

Originally posted by newjak86
Meaning that if she can be so easily distracted once and not able to summon her power than it is likely to happen again

Likewise for sue, sue can be distracted just as well, she is protecting loved ones.

Emma has less quams for her team, and even LESS quams about incapacitating an opponent, permenantly.

Originally posted by newjak86
and with someone in a fight that can take her out in one blow it is likely Emma can become a non factor quickly.

likewise again, sue is only as durable as a human, they are both vurnerable if they aren't paying attention.

Like spellcasters.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That's her fault, not Sue's.

Don't subtract Sue's victory in the circumstance just because Emma let her guard down. It's her fault, not Sue's. Of course, you'll give Emma the benefit coz she's an X-Woman.

-AC

I'm not subtrACTING SUES victory. I just don't agreee with it. she won, that's fine, but it can hardly be called a fight

It wasn't a straight fight, but that doesn't mean she couldn't win one. Infact it adds to the chances she would. Emma is over-arrogant. Case in point: When she lost to Sue.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It wasn't a straight fight, but that doesn't mean she couldn't win one. Infact it adds to the chances she would. Emma is over-arrogant. Case in point: When she lost to Sue.

-AC I agree with the arrogance...

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I still fail to see how this applies here, since the match is to the best of BOTH teams abilities.

Thats like saying, "wolverine beat sabretooth,by throwing him off guard", it doesn't mean the same thing.

Likewise, and it takes considerably less time to construct and construe a mind blast, than it does to make a force field.

Why, because the bubble is contingent on the targeting, which is contingent on the thought itself that it derives from.



This is the thing, its doesn't apply here.

Its like me saying,"spiderman beat venom with a sonic gun", but if spiderman doesn't have the gun, then its hardly worth mentioning.



Likewise for sue, sue can be distracted just as well, she is protecting loved ones.

Emma has less quams for her team, and even LESS quams about incapacitating an opponent, permenantly.



likewise again, sue is only as durable as a human, they are both vurnerable if they aren't paying attention.

Like spellcasters. From the sounds you and me are in the same train of thought again. I believe this a toss up and any number of possible outcomes can happen.
It is like our debate over power and skill.

Originally posted by newjak86
From the sounds you and me are in the same train of thought again. I believe this a toss up and any number of possible outcomes can happen.
It is like our debate over power and skill.

Power of course, if its really significant, quite like batman and spiderman....

BIG difference in physiology there...

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Power of course, if its really significant, quite like batman and spiderman....

BIG difference in physiology there...
Of course our debate on who is the better fighter.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It wasn't a straight fight, but that doesn't mean she couldn't win one. Infact it adds to the chances she would. Emma is over-arrogant. Case in point: When she lost to Sue.

-AC

I thought you said it wasn't a fight.

"It was a fight.

I understand you don't like it, or obviously believe that there is one kind of fight, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a fight. Sue came out on top. I'm not sitting here trying to make you accept it because you won't will you? But it's true.

-AC "

emma would probably win a straight up fight seeing as she can affect sue even inside her shield

Sue has psionic shielding, it's been established.

It was a fight, just not a straight one. There are more than one kind of fight.

-AC

Yeah one sided fights.

Where has she gained psionic shielding?

She didn't have it in the picture X posted. . .

Originally posted by newjak86

Of course our debate on who is the better fighter. the one who wins, duh

really, she has psionic shielding? then explain this

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y97/stormfront13/emmaff.jpg

that's emma easily affecting ben, sue, and wolverine while inside her so-called psionic shielding. she isn't even trying to hurt them and they are clearly in pain

Originally posted by Creshosk
Yeah one sided fights.

Where has she gained psionic shielding?

She didn't have it in the picture X posted. . .

I'm not saying it's some thing she has total control over but she has demonstrated it in the past as specified throughout the thread. Psi-Lord for example.

And no, not one sided fights. Verbal fight, physical fight etc.

-AC

Ah sio Emma was verbal fight when Sue was having a physical fight.

Yeah, that shows it's valid evidence.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
the one who wins, duh No one with more skill is the better fighter

Originally posted by Creshosk
Ah sio Emma was verbal fight when Sue was having a physical fight.

Yeah, that shows it's valid evidence.

I claimed there were different kinds of fights, because there are. Fact.

They had a confrontation, Emma got over-confident and arrogant. Sue made her pay for it.

That's all there is to it.

-AC

Originally posted by newjak86
No one with more skill is the better fighter not if he loses the fight, how is he better?

I have more skill than a big bear, but if I lose to them twenty times and manage to live, to think I was a better fighter would be delusional.

Winners aren't neccessarily better combatants, I think is the point.

-AC

proficiency:yes
efficiency: no

Originally posted by newjak86
Exactly this is a team fight and thus a sneak attack is vaible and possible in this thread.

If you're asking, "isn't it possible that Sue could nail Emma with one shot?", then the answer most assuredly is yes. Most of the X-men and FF have one shot KO power over each other, so we're not really debating that. We're debating who could take who out first and how. So in that respect, I agree that Sue definitely has the ability to take out Emma with one shot. The better question is....will she? In some scenarios (like the one in X4), yes. In majority scenarios, I'd say no.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Why are you all ignoring the fact that Emma f*cked up and lost as a result?

-AC

I'm not ignoring it. Emma was talking trash, she wasn't fighting. Sue put Emma down. Good for Sue. Now let's see her do it when Emma IS fighting.

Yes, lets.

Point?

-AC

Point being, who cares? You don't think Emma could have taken EVERYBODY out in that scan if she chose to instead of just giving them mild headaches?

Emma takes Sue out first when they ARE fighting for reasons listed throughout the thread.

Next.

So now that we are past this point, who is most likely to win?

Originally posted by demigawd
Point being, who cares? You don't think Emma could have taken EVERYBODY out in that scan if she chose to instead of just giving them mild headaches?

Emma takes Sue out first when they ARE fighting for reasons listed throughout the thread.

Next.

Haha, next would be me again. I grabbed two of those v-shaped paper tickets.

Could she have? Yes. Bearing in mind she came out of nowhere while they were fighting someone else, or confronting someone else, I'd say it's a bit dodgy but yes, she could have.l

The fact that Sue can react faster than Emma one on one says to me that Emma wouldn't have the win against Sue as easy as you claim she could.

-AC

"So now that we are past this point, who is most likely to win?"

if anyone hasn't figured that out by now over four different FF vs. X threads, they never will....

But I'll make it concise: FF is vulnerable to psis.
X-men are psi-dominant.

About as clear-cut as Shit-eating Man vs. Mr. Shit.

But is it realistically as clear cut as "Emma will mindwipe them, done"? I don't think so.

There was another thread with "bloodlust" turned on and everyone was ready to accept that if Sue protected them all, Jonny would go nova for the win. So your opinion can't be that conclusive.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Could she have? Yes. Bearing in mind she came out of nowhere while they were fighting someone else, or confronting someone else, I'd say it's a bit dodgy but yes, she could have.l


About as dodgy as Emma trash talking and Sue knocking her out, yes.



It's only easy in scenarios where Emma isn't taken out in the first second of the fight. As VV Doom pointed out, there are infinite possibilities, it's just that most of them don't look good for the FF, who are, as said throughout three different threads, psi-vulnerable.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
But is it realistically as clear cut as "Emma will mindwipe them, done"? I don't think so.

There was another thread with "bloodlust" turned on and everyone was ready to accept that if Sue protected them all, Jonny would go nova for the win. So your opinion can't be that conclusive.

-AC

Given that it's Emma's only offensive power, I have trouble seeing why it would go any differently. I mean, it just wouldn't be logical for Emma to think, "I'm a telepath. They're vulnerable to telepathy. So I think I'll...run up to Ben and punch him".

With bloodlust turned on, I don't really see a different outcome. In fact, it's even slower, because now the FF are waiting for TWO actions. Sue shielding them, then Johnny supernoving everybody. In that amount of time, Emma would have made Sue shield the X-men and made Johnny supernova the FF.

This fight would be more fair if there weren't a telepath involved, which is why I was trying to steer everybody to the other psi-free thread, but then we got into that whole prep debate instead.

Originally posted by demigawd
As VV Doom pointed out, there are infinite possibilities,

Already asked that you stop attributing this to me, as I didn't say it.

You didn't say there are multiple possibilities and we should explore other ones?

Originally posted by demigawd
Given that it's Emma's only offensive power, I have trouble seeing why it would go any differently. I mean, it just wouldn't be logical for Emma to think, "I'm a telepath. They're vulnerable to telepathy. So I think I'll...run up to Ben and punch him".

You're a big fan of situational evidence. Not the most modest female is she? It led to Sue beating her before.

Originally posted by demigawd
With bloodlust turned on, I don't really see a different outcome. In fact, it's even slower, because now the FF are waiting for TWO actions. Sue shielding them, then Johnny supernoving everybody. In that amount of time, Emma would have made Sue shield the X-men and made Johnny supernova the FF.

Mind showing me where you got this from?

-AC

Originally posted by demigawd
You didn't say there are multiple possibilities and we should explore other ones?

Multiple doesn't mean infinite, but maybe I'm silly. Just thought it'd roll that peanut out there. Maybe it'll be harvested, I don't know, I'm not a Squirrel.

-AC

Originally posted by demigawd
You didn't say there are multiple possibilities and we should explore other ones?

Slightly different isn't it.

Do we agree that it takes more time to conjure a shield, than it does to launch a telepathic assault?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Do we agree that it takes more time to conjure a shield, than it does to launch a telepathic assault?

Personally feel like I can't be sure, have seen no *evidence* either way.

Your sentence was quite clever though, almost like political spin, with the verbs 'conjure' and 'launch'.

imo, it takes less time to launch a tp assualt

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're a big fan of situational evidence. Not the most modest female is she? It led to Sue beating her before.


Situation evidence? There are a lot of situations in which Emma would mindblast the FF, so yeah, I suppose so.

Emma isn't particularly modest, but the girl knows when to fight. And when she does, Sue is in trouble....



Got what? The fact that Emma can control minds? Or the fact that Johnny would have to wait for Sue to shield them all before he goes nova?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Multiple doesn't mean infinite, but maybe I'm silly. Just thought it'd roll that peanut out there. Maybe it'll be harvested, I don't know, I'm not a Squirrel.

-AC Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Slightly different isn't it.

fine. MULTIPLE possibilties. There.

Originally posted by stormfront13
imo, it takes less time to launch a tp assualt

What a surprise there...

Originally posted by demigawd
Situation evidence? There are a lot of situations in which Emma would mindblast the FF, so yeah, I suppose so.

Emma isn't particularly modest, but the girl knows when to fight. And when she does, Sue is in trouble....

Pretty and everything but not only is that all "would" but do you mind telling me who has one up in their one on one encounters? No need to go into "how" because we all know. But what was the result? Was it Emma getting a bit shown up? Yes.

Originally posted by demigawd
Got what? The fact that Emma can control minds? Or the fact that Johnny would have to wait for Sue to shield them all before he goes nova?

I never understood why people continually assume it takes Sue ages to shield them. It takes seconds, if that. He hasn't gotta stand around and call time out while she does it.

-AC