Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

If anyone has a scan - could this please be posted

To paraphrase Austin Powers:
"Troll. Bloody troll. We aren't supposed to talk about the bloody troll, but there's a bloody troll winking me in the face. I want to c-u-u-t it off, ch-o-o-p it off, and make guacatrolly."

Well, it has been stated by Marvel that it was the Phoenix Force, and not eternity, that saved Galactus from dying in the Big Crunch when the previous universe ended.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
Well, it has been stated by Marvel that it was the Phoenix Force, and not eternity, that saved Galactus from dying in the Big Crunch when the previous universe ended.

Yes but it was the "Phoenix force of "that" universe" quote, unquote - What's God got to do with it? As the old song says or was that love

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
To paraphrase Austin Powers:
"Troll. Bloody troll. We aren't supposed to talk about the bloody troll, but there's a bloody troll winking me in the face. I want to c-u-u-t it off, ch-o-o-p it off, and make guacatrolly."

X are you I hate Whirly?

No whirly I like your sardonic humour.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
No whirly I like your sardonic humour.
Thank you

up

Originally posted by Mr _Whirlysplat
X are you I hate Whirly?

I think Ihatewhirly is a part of all of us, and we are all a part of him (or her)

Originally posted by Mr _Whirlysplat
If anyone has a scan - could this please be posted
ha it doesn't

heck the creation part is in jeopardy rite now

Seem Reed is the creator of the Universal

damn and these jokes

a very good thread,,indeed it does not say anywhere.....she only exists as part of god in GS's brain and thats cause he is like 37% of the time drunk....

That's the thing about being a fanboy of the top 2 or 3 most powerful people in Marvel....it changes at least once every 10 years.

ur debate isnt evoliving anymore gs, try n keep up with the times old boy, pheonix was RETCONNED. end of story, ur points are as empty and ridiculous as pheonix's retcons are.{other than being older and more fallacious than most unpassed conservative bills}

Originally posted by leonheartmm
ur debate isnt evoliving anymore gs, try n keep up with the times old boy, pheonix was RETCONNED. end of story, ur points are as empty and ridiculous as pheonix's retcons are.{other than being older and more fallacious than most unpassed conservative bills}


I think you need to have a read of my last post on the versus forum. No retcon has taken place my friend as far as has been revealed so far. Once again you've jumped on the bandwagon and spouted your sewage far too quickly. When are you gonna learn my young friend?

Either way if you'd read this post properly you'd see that even if a retcon does take place (as it should do given that Endsong was the last 616 Phoenix story for a looooong time) it doesnt mean Phoenix cant be used in debates. The White Crown Phoenix while she was around had a link with God and i can quite happily still use her in debates. Pre retcon Beyonder isnt around anymore and neither are the Brothers or Pre C Supes but they still feature in hierarchies and debates. Theres no getting away from the Phoenix!!!!!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I think you need to have a read of my last post on the versus forum. No retcon has taken place my friend as far as has been revealed so far. Once again you've jumped on the bandwagon and spouted your sewage far too quickly. When are you gonna learn my young friend?

Either way if you'd read this post properly you'd see that even if a retcon does take place (as it should do given that Endsong was the last 616 Phoenix story for a looooong time) it doesnt mean Phoenix cant be used in debates. The White Crown Phoenix while she was around had a link with God and i can quite happily still use her in debates. Pre retcon Beyonder isnt around anymore and neither are the Brothers or Pre C Supes but they still feature in hierarchies and debates. Theres no getting away from the Phoenix!!!!!

despite the retconn where the Rabbit has the power, its only "repsected" members like "Adam Warlock" - check oout spammers list

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/memberlist.php?what=topstarters&perpage=25

how many threads started

Who believe this tosh mate

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I think you need to have a read of my last post on the versus forum. No retcon has taken place my friend as far as has been revealed so far. Once again you've jumped on the bandwagon and spouted your sewage far too quickly. When are you gonna learn my young friend?

Either way if you'd read this post properly you'd see that even if a retcon does take place (as it should do given that Endsong was the last 616 Phoenix story for a looooong time) it doesnt mean Phoenix cant be used in debates. The White Crown Phoenix while she was around had a link with God and i can quite happily still use her in debates. Pre retcon Beyonder isnt around anymore and neither are the Brothers or Pre C Supes but they still feature in hierarchies and debates. Theres no getting away from the Phoenix!!!!! You are right in that it is to early to see where this is heading but with what Marvel has done in the past Pheonixs days as The Rpimal Force of Creation may be numbered if Marvel is even willing to place something out there that discourages their previous comics.

Isn't everything supposed to be part of God?

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Isn't everything supposed to be part of God?

I am unsure as 666 is in the DC address

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
despite the retconn where the Rabbit has the power, its only "repsected" members like "Adam Warlock" - check oout spammers list



By your own admission you havent read the comic so its very naive to form an opinion based on hearsay. As a lecturer you should know better my friend.


As it stands nowhere does it say that the Big Bang isnt a manifestation of the Phoenix.

Nowhere does it say Eternity wasnt created by Phoenix.

All you have is a timetable for Phoenix.

Also if you actually read the issue you'd find out that the Cosmic bunny has just about as much to do with creation as Beak. The comic stated that all beings are a part of the universe and that all humanity are as well just as much as the stars. Thats what it was referring to. There is no ReedForce and the cosmic bunny did nothing. KG took it too literally and you jumped on the bandwagon too quickly because it was anti-phoenix.


Pick up an issue and get back to me. Id love to hear your thoughts.

Quite the picture whore lately

Originally posted by newjak86
You are right in that it is to early to see where this is heading but with what Marvel has done in the past Pheonixs days as The Rpimal Force of Creation may be numbered if Marvel is even willing to place something out there that discourages their previous comics.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Isn't everything supposed to be part of God?

Theres a difference between being created by God and being a manifestation of the supreme being.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Quite the picture whore lately

Rabbit has the power look it comes from within him the spark and read helps define its shape

here

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
here

The thought comes from within him and from that thought comes the Big Bang. However its all Eternities doing. The whole point was that all life is as much a part of the universe as the stars and the reason for life and for the big bang is that Eternity questioned his own existence. Dont follow hearsay and a few out of context scans. You by your own admission havent read the comic.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The thought comes from within him and from that thought comes the Big Bang. However its all Eternities doing. The whole point was that all life is as much a part of the universe as the stars and the reason for life and for the big bang is that Eternity questioned his own existence. Dont follow hearsay and a few out of context scans. You by your own admission havent read the comic.

but I have read Reed give it shape

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The thought comes from within him and from that thought comes the Big Bang. However its all Eternities doing. The whole point was that all life is as much a part of the universe as the stars and the reason for life and for the big bang is that Eternity questioned his own existence. Dont follow hearsay and a few out of context scans. You by your own admission havent read the comic. Yes but KgKg has and by his thought it clearly states that it shows that Phoenix has nothing to do with it. So right now until more comes out we got to realize GS that Phoenix pretty much is going to retconed it has happened before it was bound to happen again you just got wait and see just how bad it is.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The thought comes from within him and from that thought comes the Big Bang. However its all Eternities doing. The whole point was that all life is as much a part of the universe as the stars and the reason for life and for the big bang is that Eternity questioned his own existence. Dont follow hearsay and a few out of context scans. You by your own admission havent read the comic.

I have read Reed give it shape

Connecting the X-men to such a high ranking entity has just totally spoiled my liking for them.

And for as much as I don't like phoenix since it entered its godmode cheat, I don't think the one issue is enough to prove phoenix didn't have a part of it. The whole thing could of very well been an illusion or simulation.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Connecting the X-men to such a high ranking entity has just totally spoiled my liking for them.

And for as much as I don't like phoenix since it entered its godmode cheat, I don't think the one issue is enough to prove phoenix didn't have a part of it. The whole thing could of very well been an illusion or simulation.

Trust me its Marvels latest Retcon - Morrisons ideas involving Phoenix (don't tell GS I said this were very good). The thing is they were to be to be contained in the X men and had a detrimental effect to the Marvel Universe as alot of the X power ups have. Marvel have seen this hence House of M to restore some kind of common sense. I am worried Crisis will bugger up DC with power ups.

Hoppy and future stories will redress this.

Originally posted by newjak86
Yes but KgKg has and by his thought it clearly states that it shows that Phoenix has nothing to do with it. So right now until more comes out we got to realize GS that Phoenix pretty much is going to retconed it has happened before it was bound to happen again you just got wait and see just how bad it is.

No what you've seen is that Eternitys questions on existence were a spark that resulted in the Big Bang which is stated by F4 only a few months ago to be a manifestation of the Phoenix. Therefore nothing in that issue indicates that a retcon has taken place.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No what you've seen is that Eternitys questions on existence were a spark that resulted in the Big Bang which is stated by F4 only a few months ago to be a manifestation of the Phoenix. Therefore nothing in that issue indicates that a retcon has taken place. Yes and no and can be taken either way by Marvel if they want. That is why though we must look to see what else is coming up in the next issues. Altough based on Marvel's past I feel this is the first stepping stone for it being retconed as this is what they've done in the past.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I have read Reed give it shape

Reed gave the replay of creation that the Entity sparked off balance. Reed as a human is part of the truth, part of the answer to the question that Eternity asked in the pre creation void (what is the meaning of life?) therefore Reed provided the truth to the Entitys knowledge therefore providing balance to the replay of creation they had sparked off.

No retcon just a replaying of the events that lead to life in Marvel. There was still a big bang which we know to be Phoenix. We now know why there was one.

Read the comic.

Ignore out of context scans

Down with hearsay

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Ignore out of context scans

Down with hearsay

Oh the irony

and heres a scan that gives itself context Reed and the Rabbit join creating the Universe.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Oh the irony

and heres a scan that gives itself context Reed and the Rabbit join creating the Universe.

Nah.

The comic reveals all within the universe are extensions of Eternity. The comic then states that Eternity set in motion the Big Bang via his questions on his own existence.

Reed and The Entity went back in time before creation and asked the same questions about life and its purpose.

As extensions of Eternity they (like Eternity did before their interference in the time stream) caused the Big Bang in the exact same way.

Therefore the revelations in the comic are:

Reed is responsible for the cosmic rays that would create the F4

Theres life in the Universe because Eternity questioned his existence resulting in the Big Bang (a manifestation of Phoenix)

No retcon....yet

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nah.

The comic reveals all within the universe are extensions of Eternity. The comic then states that Eternity set in motion the Big Bang via his questions on his own existence.

Reed and The Entity went back in time before creation and asked the same questions about life and its purpose.

As extensions of Eternity they (like Eternity did before their interference in the time stream) caused the Big Bang in the exact same way.

Therefore the revelations in the comic are:

Reed is responsible for the cosmic rays that would create the F4

Theres life in the Universe because Eternity questioned his existence resulting in the Big Bang (a manifestation of Phoenix)

No retcon....yet

Thats your interpretation I see no evidence to support the Phoenix is involved here

or here

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Thats your interpretation I see no evidence to support the Phoenix is involved here Yes because creation is not involved in creation.

Or are you talking about jean or the elemental again?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Yes because creation is not involved in creation.

Or are you talking about jean or the elemental again?

heres the Rabbit - no Phoenix about

Anda three, anda four...

All mystical schools of thought recognize various levels to reality, including ones above the "psychic/astral" (or in scifi and comicological parlance, "psionic", but below the Ultimate/Absolute. In Hinduism, they are the vijnanamayakosa and anandamayakosa levels; in Buddhism (depending on the sect) they are the jhanas or manas; in Kabbalah they are the emanations of the sefirot; and so on, yada yada yada.

In plain English: these are the "archetypal" levels: the divine matrices of creation which begin with one's personal archetype (the immediate source of one's self) and end with Final archetype: the source of all lesser archetypes ("God" as Highest Other, the perceivable Creator of the Omniverse). In between are the archetypes for all the multiverses, and lil' bit lower down, the archetypes for all the universes.

In meditation, as one's consciousness ascends the levels of reality, one first becomes aware of, then eventually identifies with, these archetypes. This is simply a grander version of what a person goes through when he (or she) matures from childhood to adolescence to adulthood: one first becomes aware of, then eventually identifies with, levels of thinking, from the very concrete to the abstract.

These levels (cognitive or archetypal) already exist; development (genetically driven or meditatively driven) simply brings us to where we can "see" and "acquire" them.

I propose: the "Phoenix Force" is the archetype which creates our universe (multiverse? -- I don't know how "big" the Phoenix Force is supposed to be). It precedes any person's existence, but when a person becomes aware of it, the "Phoenix becomes aware."

Thank you for your kind attention. I now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

bag




I copied the above from my post in another thread because it went over oh-so darn well there, and this thread seemed more fitting kicking

Originally posted by Mindship
Anda three, anda four...

All mystical schools of thought recognize various levels to reality, including ones above the "psychic/astral" (or in scifi and comicological parlance, "psionic", but below the Ultimate/Absolute. In Hinduism, they are the vijnanamayakosa and anandamayakosa levels; in Buddhism (depending on the sect) they are the jhanas or manas; in Kabbalah they are the emanations of the sefirot; and so on, yada yada yada.

In plain English: these are the "archetypal" levels: the divine matrices of creation which begin with one's personal archetype (the immediate source of one's self) and end with Final archetype: the source of all lesser archetypes ("God" as Highest Other, the perceivable Creator of the Omniverse). In between are the archetypes for all the multiverses, and lil' bit lower down, the archetypes for all the universes.

In meditation, as one's consciousness ascends the levels of reality, one first becomes aware of, then eventually identifies with, these archetypes. This is simply a grander version of what a person goes through when he (or she) matures from childhood to adolescence to adulthood: one first becomes aware of, then eventually identifies with, levels of thinking, from the very concrete to the abstract.

These levels (cognitive or archetypal) already exist; development (genetically driven or meditatively driven) simply brings us to where we can "see" and "acquire" them.

I propose: the "Phoenix Force" is the archetype which creates our universe (multiverse? -- I don't know how "big" the Phoenix Force is supposed to be). It precedes any person's existence, but when a person becomes aware of it, the "Phoenix becomes aware."

Thank you for your kind attention. I now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

bag




I copied the above from my post in another thread because it went over oh-so darn well there, and this thread seemed more fitting kicking


God needs no Phoenix Force he has the Word

or as we say in Brooklyn, Da Woid.

Originally posted by Mindship
or as we say in Brooklyn, Da Woid.

indeed Da Woid and Da Woid was God, not the Phoenix

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
indeed Da Woid and Da Woid was God, not the Phoenix

Tiphereth is the Word Whirly. In creation Phoenix plays the role of Tiphereth however Phoenix is derived from the Crown it is a level of consciousness that can manifest on the physical plane through the minds of sentient beings. On the tree of life the path between Tiphereth and Keter/The Crown is referred to as the flight of the Phoenix.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
God needs no Phoenix Force he has the Word So what do you think the word is in the Marvel universe?

Just a lil quote from Wiki:

"""""""In Christian kabbalah, Tiphereth is especially associated with Jesus Christ, 'God the Son' ( as opposed to Kether, which is God the father, and Yesod, the Holy Spirit ). This is because this is the Sephirah in which the divine force 'sacrifices' itself, transmutating into the forces of energy and matter, in order that creation might come to be. It is the sephirah in which 'God becomes a mortal man'. A Christian mystic, in relating to Jesus, repeats the process in the other direction, by transmutating that which is lower, in order to achieve the divine."""""""""

Sacrifice, creation, the divine in human form. Phoenix anyone?

Plus theres the fact that Jean is referred to and represented as Tiphereth in the comics.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Just a lil quote from Wiki:

"""""""In Christian kabbalah, Tiphereth is especially associated with Jesus Christ, 'God the Son' ( as opposed to Kether, which is God the father, and Yesod, the Holy Spirit ). This is because this is the Sephirah in which the divine force 'sacrifices' itself, transmutating into the forces of energy and matter, in order that creation might come to be. It is the sephirah in which 'God becomes a mortal man'. A Christian mystic, in relating to Jesus, repeats the process in the other direction, by transmutating that which is lower, in order to achieve the divine."""""""""

Sacrifice, creation, the divine in human form. Phoenix anyone?

Plus theres the fact that Jean is referred to and represented as Tiphereth in the comics.

Christian Kabbalah how does that work please enlighten me

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
The Kabbalah is not really part of Judaism and hasn't been since 1710 odd Its simply a bit of a joke mystic fools like Crowley and Maddona are into. So because you disagree with what a concept is based upon, that makes the concept itself invalid?

I thought we went over this before. . .

Originally posted by Creshosk
So because you disagree with what a concept is based upon, that makes the concept itself invalid?

I thought we went over this before. . .

Do you believe in magic Cresh? are you over 40?

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Do you believe in magic Cresh? are you over 40? I believe magic is great in entertainment mediums.

What's your point?

Originally posted by Creshosk
So because you disagree with what a concept is based upon, that makes the concept itself invalid?

I thought we went over this before. . .

He gets it. He's just very stubborn and loves to troll.

Either way quite a few people today have acknowledged the connection so thats cool.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
He gets it. He's just very stubborn and loves to troll.

Either way quite a few people today have acknowledged the connection so thats cool.

and a lot haven't are you over 40 GS

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
and a lot haven't are you over 40 GS

Well ive been said to be wise beyond my years. Does that count?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Well ive been said to be wise beyond my years. Does that count?

Not to the keepers of the Kabbalah (is it me or are you spelling it right now :lol
You have to be over 40 to understand it properly So anything you say is probably wrong - the law keepers of the Kabbalah says so

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
The Kabbalah is not really part of Judaism and hasn't been since 1710 odd Its simply a bit of a joke mystic fools like Crowley and Maddona

It's not part of mainstream or everyday Judaism, but it is "Judaic mysticism," having its source waaayy back among Jews in the Middle East around the time Christianity got started. For most of Jewish history in the last 2000 years, it was not (still is not) generally encouraged as a practice among the general Jewish population for two main reasons: 1) being mainly an ethical faith, "mainstream" Judaism did not concern itself with otherwordly matters the way the Eastern mystical schools of thought did; and 2) Kabbalah, it was felt, at times, challenged what were regarded as unquestonable Judaic precepts. For example, when Rabbi Akiva had his vision of Metatron seated next to the throne of God, while all the other divine presences were standing, Akiva wondered if there were two chief Divine powers.

As Christainity gained momentum, it began to interpret Kabbalah with regard to the nature of Jesus and God's Plan for Humankind.

I don't know about Crowley, but Madonna's adoption of Kabbalah is likely because she is reacting in part to her Christian upbringing, which she saw as stifling, and because, well, Eastern mysticism has been "pop" since the Beatles kick-started interest in it back in the 1960s. Madonna may be many things, but she is not a follower.

What I find most interesting is how "God" has found its way into comics over the last decade or so. Back in the 60s and 70s, this was a topic generally avoided. I guess, in the attempt to keep making stories bigger and characters more powerful, sooner or later the Big G (no, not Galactus) was gonna show up.

Originally posted by Mindship
It's not part of mainstream or everyday Judaism, but it is "Judaic mysticism," having its source waaayy back among Jews in the Middle East around the time Christianity got started. For most of Jewish history in the last 2000 years, it was not (still is not) generally encouraged as a practice among the general Jewish population for two main reasons: 1) being mainly an ethical faith, "mainstream" Judaism did not concern itself with otherwordly matters the way the Eastern mystical schools of thought did; and 2) Kabbalah, it was felt, at times, challenged what were regarded as unquestonable Judaic precepts. For example, when Rabbi Akiva had his vision of Metatron seated next to the throne of God, while all the other divine presences were standing, Akiva wondered if there were two chief Divine powers.

As Christainity gained momentum, it began to interpret Kabbalah with regard to the nature of Jesus and God's Plan for Humankind.

I don't know about Crowley, but Madonna's adoption of Kabbalah is likely because she is reacting in part to her Christian upbringing, which she saw as stifling, and because, well, Eastern mysticism has been "pop" since the Beatles kick-started interest in it back in the 1960s. Madonna may be many things, but she is not a follower.

What I find most interesting is how "God" has found its way into comics over the last decade or so. Back in the 60s and 70s, this was a topic generally avoided. I guess, in the attempt to keep making stories bigger and characters more powerful, sooner or later the Big G (no, not Galactus) was gonna show up.

taken from elsewhere

This prohibition has come from Ashkenazic (East European) Jews and has never applied to Sepharidic (Middle Eastern) Jews. The historical basis for the "rule" comes from opponents of Kabbalah within Judaism who (successfully) attempted to restrict its study. At the root of this was the heresy of false messiah Shabbatai Tzevi (17th. C) which resulted in large numbers of Jews leaving the orthodox fold. This heresy had deep Kabbalistic underpinnings, and in the attempt to stamp out Shabbateanism, Kabbalah itself became suspect, and specific prohibitions against the study of Kabbalah were enacted (e.g. the excommunication of the Frankists in Poland in 1756).

A further factor was the degeneration (in the eyes of their rationalist opponents) of 18th. century Hasidism, which had roots both in Kabbalah and Shabbateanism, into "wonder working" and superstition. The rationalist faction in Judaism triumphed, and the study of Kabbalah became largely discredited, to the extent that many Jewish publications written earlier in this century discuss Kabbalah (if at all) in a very negative way.

Basically most Jews do not take it seriously - A few Rabbis do but they are usually fringists.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Basically most Jews do not take it seriously - A few Rabbis do but they are usually fringists.

I would even broaden that statement: generally most people don't take a mystical perspective seriously because we don't live in "those kinda times."

Didn't we have a similar discussion like this once before? You and I come from different polarities, so to speak, but still it was one of the best mental workouts I'd had online in a long while.

Whether it is taken seriously or not Kaballah is the key to understanding the Phoenix interpretation and through it you find out that Phoenix represents the Crown. It is a state of consciousness.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Whether it is taken seriously or not Kaballah is the key to understanding the Phoenix interpretation and through it you find out that Phoenix represents the Crown. It is a state of consciousness.

Its drivel and your not 40 so you know nothing about the Kabbalah

Originally posted by Mindship
I would even broaden that statement: generally most people don't take a mystical perspective seriously because we don't live in "those kinda times."

Didn't we have a similar discussion like this once before? You and I come from different polarities, so to speak, but still it was one of the best mental workouts I'd had online in a long while.


yes we did but its been fringist for 200 years

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Whether it is taken seriously or not Kaballah is the key to understanding the Phoenix interpretation and through it you find out that Phoenix represents the Crown. It is a state of consciousness.

I am inclined to agree, at least with a general mystical/archetypal interpretation. This is my preference for understanding what Marvel means by the Phoenix Force. Who in Marvel introduced this, and around what year? I'm just wondering if -- or how much -- Stan Lee had a part in it, since he is Jewish.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Its drivel and your not 40 so you know nothing about the Kabbalah

Neither are you but your kaballah related posts suggest that rule may need a little re-working.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Neither are you but your kaballah related posts suggest that rule may need a little re-working.

no need to be embarressed I know the Kabbalah has not been a part of mainstream Judaism for 200 years hence the terms kabbalistic when applied to maigc etc, its tosh - you also realise its not a hieracrhy as you make out - thats one of the biggest mistakes people make with it.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
yes we did but its been fringist for 200 years

Yeah. For about as long as America has been around, or broadly speaking, the Industrial Revolution. Both proved vastly superior to improving the material/day-to-day well-being of whole populations much better than praying for bread on yer table.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
no need to be embarressed I know the Kabbalah has not been a part of mainstream Judaism for 200 years hence the terms kabbalistic when applied to maigc etc, its tosh - you also realise its not a hieracrhy as you make out - thats one of the biggest mistakes people make with it.

Ive never made it out to be a hierarchy. Ive only been highlighting Phoenixes connection to the supreme being as shown via the kaballah interpretation of the character.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Its drivel and your not 40 so you know nothing about the Kabbalah How old are you?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ive never made it out to be a hierarchy. Ive only been highlighting Phoenixes connection to the supreme being as shown via the kaballah interpretation of the character.

you constantly talk about the Crown being above the others thats not quite true is it?

Originally posted by Creshosk
How old are you?

not 40 but ...............

Originally posted by Mindship
Yeah. For about as long as America has been around, or broadly speaking, the Industrial Revolution. Both proved vastly superior to improving the material/day-to-day well-being of whole populations much better than praying for bread on yer table.

indeed - magic does not work

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
you constantly talk about the Crown being above the others thats not quite true is it?

Not above other aspects no.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not above other aspects no.

Exactly, so the Phoenix is no more powerful than 12 other things even in your interpretation

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Exactly, so the Phoenix is no more powerful than 12 other things even in your interpretation

But the Crown contains all of the other spheres by definiton it encompasses them all and Marvels interpretation as aforementioned is a botch job.

Is it not possible that Marvel adapted some aspects of mystical/Kabbalistic thinking for its Phoenix Force story elements? I doubt Marvel was covertly pushing Kabbalah, per se, in its comics. Probably someone (Stan Lee??) said, "Hey this would be cool for a character. Let's use this stuff," and took some ideas from column A, others from column B, and <poof> new character or power level to one-upmanship either a previous Marvel story or what DC was doing. No?

Originally posted by Mindship
Is it not possible that Marvel adapted some aspects of mystical/Kabbalistic thinking for its Phoenix Force story elements? I doubt Marvel was covertly pushing Kabbalah, per se, in its comics. Probably someone (Stan Lee??) said, "Hey this would be cool for a character. Let's use this stuff," and took some ideas from column A, others from column B, and <poof> new character or power level to one-upmanship either a previous Marvel story or what DC was doing. No?

Morrison indeed was trying to link the Kabbalah to Phoenix, he botched the job.

Reposted by the Whirly one

a friend of mine from another forum who is a comparative religions major wrote this.

in the interest of the poster's self-glorification, of course
>
>
> -Jean Grey, the mutant Yogi:
>
> OK, since this is, after all, a superhero comic, what follows may seem out of place. But don't underestimate Morrison's own pretentiousness
>
> In the last issue of the run, Cassandra says that "according to my Shi'ar files, the Phoenix consciousness accesses its host through the Chakra placed at the crown of the head" or something to that effect (I don't have the issues handy so I'm quoting from memory). This throwaway line is Morrison's main contribution to clearing up the Phoenix continuity.
>
> Chakra is the Sanskrit work for circular motion. According to Tantrism, a chakra is a spherical energy centre affected by everything around us. In Hindu Tantrism there are seven main chakras, while in Buddhist Tantrism there are five, all arrayed along the vertebral column. The chakras are supposed to be the points from which the "ethereal" vital energy of the astral body flows (the astral body, that trope from classic Marvel which Dr. Strange, Xavier and even Magneto are so keen to switch into).
>
> The chakra of the crown (top of the head) is called Sahasrara, and it resonates with the energy of wisdom, insight, and TRUTH. It is also referred to as "the many-petalled lotus".
>
> Tantrism tries to "open" the chakras, by making the passive, "earthly" energy situated at the lowest chakra (represented by the snake Kundalini) clamber up the spine. The hardest one to open is of course the uppermost one, the lotus. Jean's mutation, which would allow her to tap into the/a Phoenix entity, is that her chakras are open. That's "the mind over matter" thingy she herself identifies with telekinesis (when she addresses the U-men while stopping their onslaught against the X-mansion).
>
> For more superheroines with chakra-derived powers, see Multi-girl from Alan Moore's "Top 10". Or the issue from Moore's "Promethea" where Promethea has tantric sex with her magical mentor Jack Faust.
>
> (That mister Morrison tends to get so jerky when he refers to Moore's work may have to do with the fact that they are natural competitors, being interested in the same stuff and such. Moore's writing is better IMO, more human and accessible).
>
> So Jeannie has ultimate enlightenment built into her genome. That's why it's probably deliberate that Morrison writes her as "angelic"*. When the Phoenix appears, she waltzes around as an avenging angel, uncompromisingly truthful. That's all she tells Bishop during "Murder", and that's all she does when she interrupts Emma's psychic romp with Cyke. she peels away all the layers of armour and lies of the ice queen, revealing her flaws and therefore redeeming her: Emma admits that she's shallow, manipulative, and that she's in love. The execution is less than ideal and Emma remains pretty faithful to her bitchy self after that, but I find the concept is kinda touching.
>
> (* "seraphic", to be more specific. Seraphs are referred to as the most exalted angels of all, fiery spirits often depicted around the crowned Godhead. Since the serried ranks of Phoenixes (Phoenices?) from the last issue look a lot like a heavenly host of sorts, the "white Phoenix of the crown" thing may be a play on words).
>
> Once the Phoenix connects with her, Jean practically becomes the only diamond without flaws, the one character without doubts or fears. Jean White, as it is. Even when Mags bumps her off, the Phoenix remains "invictus". That's not too "relatable", but since in Morrison's run mutation/change is synonymous with conflict, I suppose he needed to place a character above the din of the struggle. You have to wrap up your run, you know.
>
> (BTW, Quentin turns/taps indeed into a Phoenix-like entity when he dies, feeding off the "humus" left in the wake of Kick overindulgence. That's why Xorn says "a flower of light is opening in your head". He could have said "a lotus of light" too).
>
> -Why the run feels so disjointed:
>
> OK, she's not supposed to be omniscient, and yet, if Jean is so swell, how come she does not uncover Sublime's little scam with her searing glance? The fact is that Morrison seems to realize his ominous wild card is too big for the stories he's telling, specially after "Imperial". The result is that Jean gets really little time on camera. That cheapens the love triangle with Scott and Emma.
>
> And that's the problem with the run seen as a whole. The motive of "thinking outside the box" is central in the stories, and yet, when taken to its logical extreme, leads (as a dying, transfigured Quentin says) to "rooms that are larger than the world". That's fine and dandy in another context (the Invisibles, for example), but it does not gel all too well with X-corp, murder mysteries and restive teenagers. For the sake of closure, Morrison drops the ball on the motives he has established early on and shortchanges the reader by enacting a cosmic endgame where everybody discards their masks and very additional depth is gained in exchange.
>
> (As for the cosmic endgame: the idea of Jean as deluded servant of the Beast and victorious Phoenix resembles Promethea's double role as Babylonian whore and angel of Judgement Day. Again, Moore and Morrison share the same niche).
>
> There's no real crescendo leading up to the apocalyptic finale. Morrison wastes his biggest shot at the beginning, with Genosha's destruction*. The dissonance that is "Planet X" does not elicit a sense of foreboding or resolution, only of restlessness, and any dramatic effect it aims for is tarnished by indulgent parody and the shoddiness of "Assault on weapon plus".
>
> (*The giant sentinels are a variation of the hoary old motive of machine development outstripping biological evolution. Perhaps because it is regarded as "vulgar", the idea is only dealt with cursorily afterwards, in the form of nano-sentinels, E.V.A. etc.)
>
> -Diamonds are forever?
>
> I end up feeling that Morrison's run is, well, quite flawed. But it does shine at places, and it has piqued my interest in a franchise I'd always found too commercial and convoluted. Cassaday on art OTOH is 90% of an automatic purchase for me, so I'll be checking out "astonishing".


That was excellent, lurker. See, one of the biggest problems I've had with Morrison's run isn't Morrison, but his fanatic followers "interpreting" Morrison in the X-books, pulling nonsense out of their rear-ends, *oh, Grant means this,* and *Grant believes in this,so it must equal that*. Morrison DID have some symbolic content, as you so expertly point out, and he did have some shining moments, and he did put together some interesting ideas, but I'd say 50% of what his followers are claiming is some great multi-layered "meta-text" is BS. Or, rather, a lot of what Morrison apparently started to portray and tried to make multi-layered, didn't work, for many of the reasons you outline above.

Your analysis of how Morrison tripped himself up in "Planet X" for example, according to what I've heard, is right on the money. I would only add that there was a measure of "shoddiness" about "Planet X" as well, and blaming everything on Kick/Sublime doesn't solve the problem.

What you outline is exactly what I have to give MOrrison credit for. His use of the Chakras, his use of Biblical symoblism. Give Claremont credit for introducing the Phoenix as fiery angel and Tiphereth of the Sephiroth (and the solar plexus chakra). Morrison botched the connection to the kabbalah, and I really laugh when I read fans trying to piece that one together. As you say, Moore did a much more exact, careful, and insightful job of merging the paths of the tree of life, the ladies of the major arcana, and the chakras. In other words, when Morrison gives some thought and time to the symmetry and synchronicity of his symbols and meanings in his stories, he's good. WHen he makes a half-assed effort, or makes a superficial attempt to throw symbols together, putting plot and character second, he falls flat on his face. In my opinion, of course.

Several other forums went throuoght the same stuff

Originally posted by Mindship
Is it not possible that Marvel adapted some aspects of mystical/Kabbalistic thinking for its Phoenix Force story elements? I doubt Marvel was covertly pushing Kabbalah, per se, in its comics. Probably someone (Stan Lee??) said, "Hey this would be cool for a character. Let's use this stuff," and took some ideas from column A, others from column B, and <poof> new character or power level to one-upmanship either a previous Marvel story or what DC was doing. No?

I agree. Some elements and concepts are used. Phoenix for example is presented as the power of creation and is a state of consciousness that those with the right genetic potential can reach. The hosts of this power are presented as seraphim who burn away that which doesnt work in creation. In real life the path between Tiphereth and Keter is even called the flight of the phoenix. So many ideas are borrowed and parrallels drawn however its not a complete translation.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Morrison indeed was trying to link the Kabbalah to Phoenix, he botched the job.

Reposted by the Whirly one

a friend of mine from another forum who is a comparative religions major wrote this.

in the interest of the poster's self-glorification, of course
>
>
> -Jean Grey, the mutant Yogi:
>
> OK, since this is, after all, a superhero comic, what follows may seem out of place. But don't underestimate Morrison's own pretentiousness
>
> In the last issue of the run, Cassandra says that "according to my Shi'ar files, the Phoenix consciousness accesses its host through the Chakra placed at the crown of the head" or something to that effect (I don't have the issues handy so I'm quoting from memory). This throwaway line is Morrison's main contribution to clearing up the Phoenix continuity.
>
> Chakra is the Sanskrit work for circular motion. According to Tantrism, a chakra is a spherical energy centre affected by everything around us. In Hindu Tantrism there are seven main chakras, while in Buddhist Tantrism there are five, all arrayed along the vertebral column. The chakras are supposed to be the points from which the "ethereal" vital energy of the astral body flows (the astral body, that trope from classic Marvel which Dr. Strange, Xavier and even Magneto are so keen to switch into).
>
> The chakra of the crown (top of the head) is called Sahasrara, and it resonates with the energy of wisdom, insight, and TRUTH. It is also referred to as "the many-petalled lotus".
>
> Tantrism tries to "open" the chakras, by making the passive, "earthly" energy situated at the lowest chakra (represented by the snake Kundalini) clamber up the spine. The hardest one to open is of course the uppermost one, the lotus. Jean's mutation, which would allow her to tap into the/a Phoenix entity, is that her chakras are open. That's "the mind over matter" thingy she herself identifies with telekinesis (when she addresses the U-men while stopping their onslaught against the X-mansion).
>
> For more superheroines with chakra-derived powers, see Multi-girl from Alan Moore's "Top 10". Or the issue from Moore's "Promethea" where Promethea has tantric sex with her magical mentor Jack Faust.
>
> (That mister Morrison tends to get so jerky when he refers to Moore's work may have to do with the fact that they are natural competitors, being interested in the same stuff and such. Moore's writing is better IMO, more human and accessible).
>
> So Jeannie has ultimate enlightenment built into her genome. That's why it's probably deliberate that Morrison writes her as "angelic"*. When the Phoenix appears, she waltzes around as an avenging angel, uncompromisingly truthful. That's all she tells Bishop during "Murder", and that's all she does when she interrupts Emma's psychic romp with Cyke. she peels away all the layers of armour and lies of the ice queen, revealing her flaws and therefore redeeming her: Emma admits that she's shallow, manipulative, and that she's in love. The execution is less than ideal and Emma remains pretty faithful to her bitchy self after that, but I find the concept is kinda touching.
>
> (* "seraphic", to be more specific. Seraphs are referred to as the most exalted angels of all, fiery spirits often depicted around the crowned Godhead. Since the serried ranks of Phoenixes (Phoenices?) from the last issue look a lot like a heavenly host of sorts, the "white Phoenix of the crown" thing may be a play on words).
>
> Once the Phoenix connects with her, Jean practically becomes the only diamond without flaws, the one character without doubts or fears. Jean White, as it is. Even when Mags bumps her off, the Phoenix remains "invictus". That's not too "relatable", but since in Morrison's run mutation/change is synonymous with conflict, I suppose he needed to place a character above the din of the struggle. You have to wrap up your run, you know.
>
> (BTW, Quentin turns/taps indeed into a Phoenix-like entity when he dies, feeding off the "humus" left in the wake of Kick overindulgence. That's why Xorn says "a flower of light is opening in your head". He could have said "a lotus of light" too).
>
> -Why the run feels so disjointed:
>
> OK, she's not supposed to be omniscient, and yet, if Jean is so swell, how come she does not uncover Sublime's little scam with her searing glance? The fact is that Morrison seems to realize his ominous wild card is too big for the stories he's telling, specially after "Imperial". The result is that Jean gets really little time on camera. That cheapens the love triangle with Scott and Emma.
>
> And that's the problem with the run seen as a whole. The motive of "thinking outside the box" is central in the stories, and yet, when taken to its logical extreme, leads (as a dying, transfigured Quentin says) to "rooms that are larger than the world". That's fine and dandy in another context (the Invisibles, for example), but it does not gel all too well with X-corp, murder mysteries and restive teenagers. For the sake of closure, Morrison drops the ball on the motives he has established early on and shortchanges the reader by enacting a cosmic endgame where everybody discards their masks and very additional depth is gained in exchange.
>
> (As for the cosmic endgame: the idea of Jean as deluded servant of the Beast and victorious Phoenix resembles Promethea's double role as Babylonian whore and angel of Judgement Day. Again, Moore and Morrison share the same niche).
>
> There's no real crescendo leading up to the apocalyptic finale. Morrison wastes his biggest shot at the beginning, with Genosha's destruction*. The dissonance that is "Planet X" does not elicit a sense of foreboding or resolution, only of restlessness, and any dramatic effect it aims for is tarnished by indulgent parody and the shoddiness of "Assault on weapon plus".
>
> (*The giant sentinels are a variation of the hoary old motive of machine development outstripping biological evolution. Perhaps because it is regarded as "vulgar", the idea is only dealt with cursorily afterwards, in the form of nano-sentinels, E.V.A. etc.)
>
> -Diamonds are forever?
>
> I end up feeling that Morrison's run is, well, quite flawed. But it does shine at places, and it has piqued my interest in a franchise I'd always found too commercial and convoluted. Cassaday on art OTOH is 90% of an automatic purchase for me, so I'll be checking out "astonishing".


That was excellent, lurker. See, one of the biggest problems I've had with Morrison's run isn't Morrison, but his fanatic followers "interpreting" Morrison in the X-books, pulling nonsense out of their rear-ends, *oh, Grant means this,* and *Grant believes in this,so it must equal that*. Morrison DID have some symbolic content, as you so expertly point out, and he did have some shining moments, and he did put together some interesting ideas, but I'd say 50% of what his followers are claiming is some great multi-layered "meta-text" is BS. Or, rather, a lot of what Morrison apparently started to portray and tried to make multi-layered, didn't work, for many of the reasons you outline above.

Your analysis of how Morrison tripped himself up in "Planet X" for example, according to what I've heard, is right on the money. I would only add that there was a measure of "shoddiness" about "Planet X" as well, and blaming everything on Kick/Sublime doesn't solve the problem.

What you outline is exactly what I have to give MOrrison credit for. His use of the Chakras, his use of Biblical symoblism. Give Claremont credit for introducing the Phoenix as fiery angel and Tiphereth of the Sephiroth (and the solar plexus chakra). Morrison botched the connection to the kabbalah, and I really laugh when I read fans trying to piece that one together. As you say, Moore did a much more exact, careful, and insightful job of merging the paths of the tree of life, the ladies of the major arcana, and the chakras. In other words, when Morrison gives some thought and time to the symmetry and synchronicity of his symbols and meanings in his stories, he's good. WHen he makes a half-assed effort, or makes a superficial attempt to throw symbols together, putting plot and character second, he falls flat on his face. In my opinion, of course.

Several other forums went throuoght the same stuff

still the best essay I have seen on it all no offence GS

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Morrison indeed was trying to link the Kabbalah to Phoenix, he botched the job.

Reposted by the Whirly one

a friend of mine from another forum who is a comparative religions major wrote this.

in the interest of the poster's self-glorification, of course
>
>
> -Jean Grey, the mutant Yogi:
>
> OK, since this is, after all, a superhero comic, what follows may seem out of place. But don't underestimate Morrison's own pretentiousness
>
> In the last issue of the run, Cassandra says that "according to my Shi'ar files, the Phoenix consciousness accesses its host through the Chakra placed at the crown of the head" or something to that effect (I don't have the issues handy so I'm quoting from memory). This throwaway line is Morrison's main contribution to clearing up the Phoenix continuity.
>
> Chakra is the Sanskrit work for circular motion. According to Tantrism, a chakra is a spherical energy centre affected by everything around us. In Hindu Tantrism there are seven main chakras, while in Buddhist Tantrism there are five, all arrayed along the vertebral column. The chakras are supposed to be the points from which the "ethereal" vital energy of the astral body flows (the astral body, that trope from classic Marvel which Dr. Strange, Xavier and even Magneto are so keen to switch into).
>
> The chakra of the crown (top of the head) is called Sahasrara, and it resonates with the energy of wisdom, insight, and TRUTH. It is also referred to as "the many-petalled lotus".
>
> Tantrism tries to "open" the chakras, by making the passive, "earthly" energy situated at the lowest chakra (represented by the snake Kundalini) clamber up the spine. The hardest one to open is of course the uppermost one, the lotus. Jean's mutation, which would allow her to tap into the/a Phoenix entity, is that her chakras are open. That's "the mind over matter" thingy she herself identifies with telekinesis (when she addresses the U-men while stopping their onslaught against the X-mansion).
>
> For more superheroines with chakra-derived powers, see Multi-girl from Alan Moore's "Top 10". Or the issue from Moore's "Promethea" where Promethea has tantric sex with her magical mentor Jack Faust.
>
> (That mister Morrison tends to get so jerky when he refers to Moore's work may have to do with the fact that they are natural competitors, being interested in the same stuff and such. Moore's writing is better IMO, more human and accessible).
>
> So Jeannie has ultimate enlightenment built into her genome. That's why it's probably deliberate that Morrison writes her as "angelic"*. When the Phoenix appears, she waltzes around as an avenging angel, uncompromisingly truthful. That's all she tells Bishop during "Murder", and that's all she does when she interrupts Emma's psychic romp with Cyke. she peels away all the layers of armour and lies of the ice queen, revealing her flaws and therefore redeeming her: Emma admits that she's shallow, manipulative, and that she's in love. The execution is less than ideal and Emma remains pretty faithful to her bitchy self after that, but I find the concept is kinda touching.
>
> (* "seraphic", to be more specific. Seraphs are referred to as the most exalted angels of all, fiery spirits often depicted around the crowned Godhead. Since the serried ranks of Phoenixes (Phoenices?) from the last issue look a lot like a heavenly host of sorts, the "white Phoenix of the crown" thing may be a play on words).
>
> Once the Phoenix connects with her, Jean practically becomes the only diamond without flaws, the one character without doubts or fears. Jean White, as it is. Even when Mags bumps her off, the Phoenix remains "invictus". That's not too "relatable", but since in Morrison's run mutation/change is synonymous with conflict, I suppose he needed to place a character above the din of the struggle. You have to wrap up your run, you know.
>
> (BTW, Quentin turns/taps indeed into a Phoenix-like entity when he dies, feeding off the "humus" left in the wake of Kick overindulgence. That's why Xorn says "a flower of light is opening in your head". He could have said "a lotus of light" too).
>
> -Why the run feels so disjointed:
>
> OK, she's not supposed to be omniscient, and yet, if Jean is so swell, how come she does not uncover Sublime's little scam with her searing glance? The fact is that Morrison seems to realize his ominous wild card is too big for the stories he's telling, specially after "Imperial". The result is that Jean gets really little time on camera. That cheapens the love triangle with Scott and Emma.
>
> And that's the problem with the run seen as a whole. The motive of "thinking outside the box" is central in the stories, and yet, when taken to its logical extreme, leads (as a dying, transfigured Quentin says) to "rooms that are larger than the world". That's fine and dandy in another context (the Invisibles, for example), but it does not gel all too well with X-corp, murder mysteries and restive teenagers. For the sake of closure, Morrison drops the ball on the motives he has established early on and shortchanges the reader by enacting a cosmic endgame where everybody discards their masks and very additional depth is gained in exchange.
>
> (As for the cosmic endgame: the idea of Jean as deluded servant of the Beast and victorious Phoenix resembles Promethea's double role as Babylonian whore and angel of Judgement Day. Again, Moore and Morrison share the same niche).
>
> There's no real crescendo leading up to the apocalyptic finale. Morrison wastes his biggest shot at the beginning, with Genosha's destruction*. The dissonance that is "Planet X" does not elicit a sense of foreboding or resolution, only of restlessness, and any dramatic effect it aims for is tarnished by indulgent parody and the shoddiness of "Assault on weapon plus".
>
> (*The giant sentinels are a variation of the hoary old motive of machine development outstripping biological evolution. Perhaps because it is regarded as "vulgar", the idea is only dealt with cursorily afterwards, in the form of nano-sentinels, E.V.A. etc.)
>
> -Diamonds are forever?
>
> I end up feeling that Morrison's run is, well, quite flawed. But it does shine at places, and it has piqued my interest in a franchise I'd always found too commercial and convoluted. Cassaday on art OTOH is 90% of an automatic purchase for me, so I'll be checking out "astonishing".


That was excellent, lurker. See, one of the biggest problems I've had with Morrison's run isn't Morrison, but his fanatic followers "interpreting" Morrison in the X-books, pulling nonsense out of their rear-ends, *oh, Grant means this,* and *Grant believes in this,so it must equal that*. Morrison DID have some symbolic content, as you so expertly point out, and he did have some shining moments, and he did put together some interesting ideas, but I'd say 50% of what his followers are claiming is some great multi-layered "meta-text" is BS. Or, rather, a lot of what Morrison apparently started to portray and tried to make multi-layered, didn't work, for many of the reasons you outline above.

Your analysis of how Morrison tripped himself up in "Planet X" for example, according to what I've heard, is right on the money. I would only add that there was a measure of "shoddiness" about "Planet X" as well, and blaming everything on Kick/Sublime doesn't solve the problem.

What you outline is exactly what I have to give MOrrison credit for. His use of the Chakras, his use of Biblical symoblism. Give Claremont credit for introducing the Phoenix as fiery angel and Tiphereth of the Sephiroth (and the solar plexus chakra). Morrison botched the connection to the kabbalah, and I really laugh when I read fans trying to piece that one together. As you say, Moore did a much more exact, careful, and insightful job of merging the paths of the tree of life, the ladies of the major arcana, and the chakras. In other words, when Morrison gives some thought and time to the symmetry and synchronicity of his symbols and meanings in his stories, he's good. WHen he makes a half-assed effort, or makes a superficial attempt to throw symbols together, putting plot and character second, he falls flat on his face. In my opinion, of course.

Several other forums went throuoght the same stuff

We've established that he botched the job or at least wisely never included the complete translation however there is still a connection and Phoenix is represented as an aspect.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Morrison indeed was trying to link the Kabbalah to Phoenix So why are we even having this conversation?

Who cares if he did a good job or botched it?

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Morrison indeed was trying to link the Kabbalah to Phoenix

You know I think I'm going to save that and post it when WHirly starts to say anything about there being no kabbalah link. . .

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
still the best essay I have seen on it all no offence GS

No thats cool. It is very good. And further highlights the connnection. Botched as it is.

Originally posted by Creshosk
You know I think I'm going to save that and post it when WHirly starts to say anything about there being no kabbalah link. . .

I never said there wasn't an attempt, I have always said it was flawed and botched making it worthless I have also said I think the Kabbalah is just an idea and does not fit with the creation of the Marvel Universe hence the Rabbit Retcon. The whole Phoenix plot messed Marvel up in the same way JLA 1000000 messed up DC. Morrison has taken over from Byrne as Mr I create my own continuity, to hell if it fits.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So why are we even having this conversation?

Who cares if he did a good job or botched it?

Exactly. We're just going in circles here. If you agree theres a connection then this thread is over and thats the end of th ematter really.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I never said there wasn't an attempt, I have always said it was flawed and botched making it worthless No. You've always said that there was no link.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I never said there wasn't an attempt, I have always said it was flawed and botched making it worthless


Not worthless. Flawed yes but that doesnt stop the fact that Phoenix is an aspect of Marvels supreme being. The flaws mean that you cant extrapolate however defining what is actually presented and highlighting its meaning as per Kaballah is cool.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
We've established that he botched the job or at least wisely never included the complete translation however there is still a connection and Phoenix is represented as an aspect.

I like this bit a lot the analysis of the essay on the board

That was excellent, lurker. See, one of the biggest problems I've had with Morrison's run isn't Morrison, but his fanatic followers "interpreting" Morrison in the X-books, pulling nonsense out of their rear-ends, *oh, Grant means this,* and *Grant believes in this,so it must equal that*. Morrison DID have some symbolic content, as you so expertly point out, and he did have some shining moments, and he did put together some interesting ideas, but I'd say 50% of what his followers are claiming is some great multi-layered "meta-text" is BS. Or, rather, a lot of what Morrison apparently started to portray and tried to make multi-layered, didn't work, for many of the reasons you outline above.

Interesting how Alan Moore always does everything better
But now the RABBIT makes it all worthless

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I never said there wasn't an attempt, I have always said it was flawed and botched making it worthless I have also said I think the Kabbalah is just an idea and does not fit with the creation of the Marvel Universe hence the Rabbit Retcon. The whole Phoenix plot messed Marvel up in the same way JLA 1000000 messed up DC. Morrison has taken over from Byrne as Mr I create my own continuity, to hell if it fits.

You did used to say there was no connection to God. Even the thread title is evidence of your previous stance.

As for the rabbit retcon, we've been through this. A few isues prior it said the Big Bang was a manifestation of th ePhoenix. In the latest issue there was nothing that contradicted that.

There has been no retcon so far.

Even if there was White Crown Phoenix as it was could still be used in debates. No probs. Im just telling you that nowhere in that issue did they retcon Phoenix. What do you need a Phoenix shaped Big Bang?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You did used to say there was no connection to God. Even the thread title is evidence of your previous stance.

As for the rabbit retcon, we've been through this. A few isues prior it said the Big Bang was a manifestation of th ePhoenix. In the latest issue there was nothing that contradicted that.

There has been no retcon so far.

Even if there was White Crown Phoenix as it was could still be used in debates. No probs. Im just telling you that nowhere in that issue did they retcon Phoenix. What do you need a Phoenix shaped Big Bang?

Yes for it to be Phoenix they need a Phoenix shaped big bang - Reed didn't want to call it the Phoenix force if you read that issue showing Marvels feelings on the issue. The engines of creation - doesn't sound like the Phoenix force to me

And no Phoenix is not part of God, Morrison may have tried to do that but like John Byrne usually does he botched the job of producing the link.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I like this bit a lot the analysis of the essay on the board

That was excellent, lurker. See, one of the biggest problems I've had with Morrison's run isn't Morrison, but his fanatic followers "interpreting" Morrison in the X-books, pulling nonsense out of their rear-ends, *oh, Grant means this,* and *Grant believes in this,so it must equal that*. Morrison DID have some symbolic content, as you so expertly point out, and he did have some shining moments, and he did put together some interesting ideas, but I'd say 50% of what his followers are claiming is some great multi-layered "meta-text" is BS. Or, rather, a lot of what Morrison apparently started to portray and tried to make multi-layered, didn't work, for many of the reasons you outline above.

And yet that doesnt apply because i merely give definitions for terms used in the comics which is completely fine.

The on panel feats speak for themselves. Phoenix is shown on panel to reside in the Crown, she is stated on panel to be the energies of creation that manifests as the Big Bang and the hosts of this power are presented as seraphim. Thats all on panel im certainly not pulling stuff out of my rear end by highlighting these events and claiming them to be evidence of a connection.

Theres a lot of stuff this essayist talked about that i didnt go into as its not directly related to the interpretation.

This doesnt apply to myself.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And yet that doesnt apply because i merely give definitions for terms used in the comics which is completely fine.

The on panel feats speak for themselves. Phoenix is shown on panel to reside in the Crown, she is stated on panel to be the energies of creation that manifests as the Big Bang and the hosts of this power are presented as seraphim. Thats all on panel im certainly not pulling stuff out of my rear end by highlighting these events and claiming them to be evidence of a connection.

Theres a lot of stuff this essayist talked about that i didnt go into as its not directly related to the interpretation.

This doesnt apply to myself.

but she is not the energies of creation anymore (if she ever was) the Rabbit is

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Yes for it to be Phoenix they need a Phoenix shaped big bang - Reed didn't want to call it the Phoenix force if you read that issue showing Marvels feelings on the issue. The engines of creation - doesn't sound like the Phoenix force to me

And no Phoenix is not part of God, Morrison may have tried to do that but like John Byrne usually does he botched the job of producing the link.

Shows nothing Whirly. It was called the Big Bang and the Big Bang was stated earlier to be Phoenix.

You dont have a strong case for a Phoenix retcon and i think you know that deep down.

A botch job doesnt mean no link Whirly. It just means no extrapolation, no going off on tangents when interpreting the comics. Things which are stated in the comic can be defined. Phoenix is Tiphereth and the heart and soul of creation and represents the Crown as actually stated on panel. That says it all. Phoenix is an aspect.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Shows nothing Whirly. It was called the Big Bang and the Big Bang was stated earlier to be Phoenix.

You dont have a strong case for a Phoenix retcon and i think you know that deep down.

A botch job doesnt mean no link Whirly. It just means no extrapolation, no going off on tangents when interpreting the comics. Things which are stated in the comic can be defined. Phoenix is Tiphereth and the heart and soul of creation and represents the Crown as actually stated on panel. That says it all. Phoenix is an aspect.

Not according to the recent run of the Fantastic Four - The force came from the Rabbit

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
but she is not the energies of creation anymore (if she ever was) the Rabbit is

No if you actually read the comic and please for the last time acknowledge my scans (which come after the ones youre caught up on) you'd see that the rabbits thoughts triggered the Big Bang. The power didnt derive from him. It caused it. Just like dropping a match on to a trail of fuel leading to a petrol station. Or more simply lighting a dynamite stick. Life was triggered by Eternitys questions. The power never came from him im afraid.

""In that silent pre creation hesitation. The Entity asked a question....And now that question has sparked the engines of creation""""

F4 #532.

The power never came from him or Eternity his question triggered the Big Bang.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No if you actually read the comic and please for the last time acknowledge my scans (which come after the ones youre caught up on) you'd see that the rabbits thoughts triggered the Big Bang. The power didnt derive from him. It caused it. Just like dropping a match on to a trail of fuel leading to a petrol station. Or more simply lighting a dynamite stick. Life was triggered by Eternitys questions. The power never came from him im afraid.

GS this is your latest Supporters pedigree

enjoy Lord Kaos his a hoot

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=374935&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=2

your scans show nothing as usual - Kg posted them as well

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
GS this is your latest Supporters pedigree

enjoy Lord Kaos his a hoot

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=374935&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=2

your scans show nothing as usual - Kg posted them as well

Forget the LK thing back to Phoenix.

I just had a look through that entire thread. KG has posted one of my scans. However there were two others that youre failing to acknowledge. The ones which state that all life and humanity are as much a part of the universe as the stars and that life in the void was triggered by ETERNITY questioning his own existence.

With that in mind when you look at the other scans which came before that one you know that these extensions of Eternity questioned existence and as such triggered the Big Bang in the same way he did prior to their interference. Why? Because they like all life in the universe are him.

That put an end to your all powerful cosmic bunny dreams.

As does the quote i just posted highlighting how he triggered the Big Bang and that the power didnt derive from him.

As does this:

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/9223/ff530124ge.th.jpg

and this:

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/5463/ff530148vo.th.jpg

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
GS this is your latest Supporters pedigree

enjoy Lord Kaos his a hoot

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=374935&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=2

your scans show nothing as usual - Kg posted them as well I love your desperation there Whirly.

"See how pathetic my opposition is? yuk yuk yuk."

Boy, did I miss a lot whilst I slept (and also during the years I stopped reading comics).

So, if I did all my catch-up reading correctly: basically, the Marvel Minds of Creation did do some column-A and column-B picking (eg, chakras with Kabbalah??). This not only produced an in-house mystical system sorely lacking but also screwed up Marvel continuity (hence all the retconning); and all this because of one-upmanship within Marvel (though perhaps also with DC in mind), to make stories "bigger" but not necessarily "better."

I still say: Beware the Fallen One ("Rabbit," indeed...c'mon)

What/whoever started the 616 universe: did that Agent also start the Marvel multiverse? And since a) Marvel is aware of the DC universe (multiverse?), and b) DC has its own manner of Big Bang ignition; is there yet some unspoken conflict between the two means of universal/multiversal creation? Put another way: let's say Eternity began one multiverse, and DC's Whoever started that multiverse...any acknowledgment of who began the Omniverse? How would the Phoenix Force fit into this picture? Or am I jumping way ahead of the game plan, going where Marvel and DC angels fear to tread?

As a final thought: Marvel might've done better to forgo any mystical approach and go with quantum mechanics, especially quantum cosmology. This woulda had the advantage of coming from a scientific system to explain creation and parallel universes and whatnot, with less room for fudging. But then, maybe that's why they didn't.

Originally posted by Mindship
Boy, did I miss a lot whilst I slept (and also during the years I stopped reading comics).

So, if I did all my catch-up reading correctly: basically, the Marvel Minds of Creation did do some column-A and column-B picking (eg, chakras with Kabbalah??). This not only produced an in-house mystical system sorely lacking but also screwed up Marvel continuity (hence all the retconning); and all this because of one-upmanship within Marvel (though perhaps also with DC in mind), to make stories "bigger" but not necessarily "better."

I still say: Beware the Fallen One ("Rabbit," indeed...c'mon)

What/whoever started the 616 universe: did that Agent also start the Marvel multiverse? And since a) Marvel is aware of the DC universe (multiverse?), and b) DC has its own manner of Big Bang ignition; is there yet some unspoken conflict between the two means of universal/multiversal creation? Put another way: let's say Eternity began one multiverse, and DC's Whoever started that multiverse...any acknowledgment of who began the Omniverse? How would the Phoenix Force fit into this picture? Or am I jumping way ahead of the game l am, going where Marvel and DC angels fear to tread?



Agreed Mindship it has nothing really to do with the Kabbalah it is a pick and mix religion and indeed probbably due to one upmanship in the comics World as a whole.

At last someone gets my point - I kind of thought it might be you


Beware the "Rabbit"

Yahweh created creation.
Spectre created the DCU, in Crisis on Infinite Earths. The battle between him and the Anti-Monitor, CREATED the matter and anti-matter universes.

Originally posted by Juntai
Yahweh created creation.
Spectre created the DCU, in Crisis on Infinite Earths. The battle between him and the Anti-Monitor, CREATED the matter and anti-matter universes.

True enough so why GS now thinks the Phoenix created the DCU is even funnier than her other rubbish with his Phoenix coming from the source stuff.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
True enough so why GS now thinks the Phoenix created the DCU is even funnier than her other rubbish with his Phoenix coming from the source stuff. He sees Pheonix as the "spark" from which the universe is born, which isn't neccisarily the "creator" of the universe. I don't know if you understand that by now... But, I don't know why he would think an X Men created the DCU.

Originally posted by Juntai
He sees Pheonix as the "spark" from which the universe is born, which isn't neccisarily the "creator" of the universe. I don't know if you understand that by now... But, I don't know why he would think an X Men created the DCU.

I know its just plain wrong and thats part of what he means for Marvel - I might not have a problem with that except..........
It doesn't really fit........
Its the White Crown Morrison rubish I have a problem with Although having read "Endsong" recently its not a bad story. The symbolism is laughable though.

They shoulda kept God out of comics. In the good ol' days, it was enough that you had Galactus, Odin, Watcher and Eternity. As someone said in another thread, the Marvel (and DC) universe -- in the quest to inspire awe -- have become small, familiar; in a word, comprehensible. So much for awe...there went the neighborhood.

Originally posted by Mindship
They shoulda kept God out of comics. In the good ol' days, it was enough that you had Galactus, Odin, Watcher and Eternity. As someone said in another thread, the Marvel (and DC) universe -- in the quest to inspire awe -- have become small, familiar; in a word, comprehensible. So much for awe...there went the neighborhood.

I agree totally, thats another part of my argument unless, God is being used for a completely different reason like in The Preacher or Sandman it simply doesn't work.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
True enough so why GS now thinks the Phoenix created the DCU is even funnier than her other rubbish with his Phoenix coming from the source stuff.

Dont lie ive never said that you b*tch

Originally posted by Juntai
He sees Pheonix as the "spark" from which the universe is born, which isn't neccisarily the "creator" of the universe. I don't know if you understand that by now... But, I don't know why he would think an X Men created the DCU.

Unless you've seen me say it with your own eyes do not acknowledge anything Whirly says i have said.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I know its just plain wrong and thats part of what he means for Marvel - I might not have a problem with that except..........
It doesn't really fit........
Its the White Crown Morrison rubish I have a problem with Although having read "Endsong" recently its not a bad story. The symbolism is laughable though.

Botch job does not equal a non existent connection.

Why is it laughable, because it doesnt follow the principles down to a "t"?

Wouldnt that be ridiculous?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Botch job does not equal a non existent connection.

Why is it laughable, because it doesnt follow the principles down to a "t"?

Wouldnt that be ridiculous?

It mixes principles

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
It mixes principles

Doesnt matter. A connection is still established as even your religion major friend noted. The execution of it just wasnt perfect. Oh well.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Doesnt matter. A connection is still established as even your religion major friend noted. The execution of it just wasnt perfect. Oh well.

and now its been retconned no more Phoenix in 616

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
and now its been retconned no more Phoenix in 616

No retcon as ive made quite clear. Phoenix is in the white hot room which is the heart of the phoenix as stated just a few months back during house of M. The Crown still exists in Marvel so Phoenix is just fine. We just wont be seeing her in 616 for a looong time.

So while a retcon is expected it hasnt happened yet and if/when it does i can still debate with the White Crown Phoenix in mind so its all good. No biggie.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No retcon as ive made quite clear. Phoenix is in the white hot room which is the heart of the phoenix as stated just a few months back during house of M. The Crown still exists in Marvel so Phoenix is just fine. We just wont be seeing her in 616 for a looong time.

So while a retcon is expected it hasnt happened yet and if/when it does i can still debate with the White Crown Phoenix in mind so its all good. No biggie.

Here is the retcon

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Here is the retcon

Nope thats Eternitys questions on existence triggering the Big Bang which by all accounts is a manifestation of the Phoenix Force.

No retcon im afraid.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Here is the retcon

Originally posted by kgkg


Ive been anxiously awaiting your return.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ive been anxiously awaiting your return. sorry for all the spam and shit that was not my intention.

so where is the Force?

Bunny rules

Originally posted by kgkg
sorry for all the spam and shit that was not my intention.

so where is the Force?

Bunny rules

Exactly the Spam was only really my intention

Originally posted by kgkg
sorry for all the spam and shit that was not my intention.

so where is the Force?

Bunny rules

Theres not gonna be another Phoenix story in 616 for a looong time that was the point behind Endsong. However the Force by all accounts is the Big Bang. Nothing in F4 532 said that wasnt the case. It just gave readers knowledge of why and when the Big Bang occurs. (i.e Eternitys questioning his own existence) What do expect a Phoenix shaped explosion?

Other than that all your talk of a ReedForce and an all powerful bunny was incorrect because as stated it was all Eternity and they as extensions of Eternity (as was made very clear in the comic) triggered off the Big Bang in the same way Eternity did prior to their time travelling.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Exactly the Spam was only really my intention

Youre back

Whoopee

IMHO: whether or not Kabbalah or any mystical system has been intro'd into the Marvel universe; whether or not it's been interpreted correctly; whether or not one buys the philosophy -- for me, I best understand the Phoenix Force as a manifestation of the archetype which created -- and continues to create -- the Marvel universe (perhaps Eternity was the first conscious being to access this archetype). This archetype itself emanates out from the ascending hierarchy of archetypes, with its inevitable source in Final archetype: "God" as Highest Perceivable Other, the Creator With Form of the Omniverse, which in turn originates out of the Causal Void, the Godhead, the Ultimate Source and Mystery beyond any form or definition. This is not "The One Above All," as Marvel's we're-so-cool mystical wanna-bes have called it, but rather, it is as perhaps best described in the Chandogya Upanishad: "One without a second."

If Marvel has attempted to bring this level of being into its stories: from what I can tell, it has done a lousy job, likely because it had a truly amateur's understanding of the subject matter and was looking for special effects. Its attempt, IMO, has cheapened the Mystery it sought to exalt.

OR -- they have woven a narrative, driven by the Fallen One, and are proving themselves true masters of storytelling that we lesser mortals have shown ourselves unworthy to read because of our impatience.

I need pizza.

Originally posted by Mindship
IMHO: whether or not Kabbalah or any mystical system has been intro'd into the Marvel universe; whether or not it's been interpreted correctly; whether or not one buys the philosophy -- for me, I best understand the Phoenix Force as a manifestation of the archetype which created -- and continues to create -- the Marvel universe (perhaps Eternity was the first conscious being to access this archetype). This archetype itself emanates out from the ascending hierarchy of archetypes, with its inevitable source in Final archetype: "God" as Highest Perceivable Other, the Creator With Form of the Omniverse, which in turn originates out of the Causal Void, the Godhead, the Ultimate Source and Mystery beyond any form or definition. This is not "The One Above All," as Marvel's we're-so-cool mystical wanna-bes have called it, but rather, it is as perhaps best described in the Chandogya Upanishad: "One without a second."

If Marvel has attempted to bring this level of being into its stories: from what I can tell, it has done a lousy job, likely because it had a truly amateur's understanding of the subject matter and was looking for special effects. Its attempt, IMO, has cheapened the Mystery it sought to exalt.

OR -- they have woven a narrative, driven by the Fallen One, and are proving themselves true masters of storytelling that we lesser mortals have shown ourselves unworthy to read because of our impatience.

I need pizza.

Prepare for a backlash from the HELPING HAND !!!!!!

Originally posted by kgkg
so where is the Force?

I define the source to be X,
since I cannot preceive of X, X must not exist.
Therefore the Force dowsn't exist.

Yeah real logical there. By that logic where is Galactus? And through an extension of him Silver Surfer, or any of the heralds, or any of the events they took part in?

Yeah, the problem is how you define the force. The power of creation without form, or in this case the form of the bunny. Later on called the phoenix force, and through an extention of a semblence of sentience take on a form of that sentience's own. But a force by any other name would have the same properties.

If I were to summon a water elemental in the form of a musk ox, and kill it, then I've killed water or the elemental that took the form of a musk ox?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Theres not gonna be another Phoenix story in 616 for a looong time that was the point behind Endsong. However the Force by all accounts is the Big Bang. Nothing in F4 532 said that wasnt the case. It just gave readers knowledge of why and when the Big Bang occurs. (i.e Eternitys questioning his own existence) What do expect a Phoenix shaped explosion?

Other than that all your talk of a ReedForce and an all powerful bunny was incorrect because as stated it was all Eternity and they as extensions of Eternity (as was made very clear in the comic) triggered off the Big Bang in the same way Eternity did prior to their time travelling.
it says reed ....................... Created the Big Bang.


Reed early said

Big Bang = PF

No reed Created the Big Bang = PF

didn't even say anything about the force , heck Reed was all suprised he didn't even mention PF did he?

again PF is the force that created the big Band

those guys created that Spark.

Therefore PF is nothing but the byproduct of Reed if you wanna look at it that way

Originally posted by kgkg
it says reed ....................... Created the Big Bang.


Reed early said

Big Bang = PF

No reed Created the Big Bang = PF

didn't even say anything about the force , heck Reed was all suprised he didn't even mention PF did he?

again PF is the force that created the big Band

those guys created that Spark.

Therefore PF is nothing but the byproduct of Reed if you wanna look at it that way

Incorrect KG. As i have shown to posters before your post and as i will now show you:

http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/2458/ff531204tm.th.jpg

http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/6421/fantasticfour532010az.th.jpg

As you can see from these scans from both F4 531 and 532 respectively,it does NOT say that Reed created the Big Bang. You misread or misinterpreted. Either way it states that Reed and the Entitys desire to understand, their questions on their own existence were what triggered the Big Bang. Theres a difference between triggering something and creating it KG understand that.

If i light a stick of dynamite is the resultant explosion generated by my body? Does it derive from me directly or are my actions merely the catalyst?

Phoenix Force is the energies of creation it manifests as the Big Bang. This latest F4 story arc has revealed to us why and when Phoenix does that thats all.

As actually stated on panel their thoughts triggered it. They didnt create it. It didnt derive from them. Thats the difference. So no Phoenix is not a byproduct of Reed. You were incorrect. Reed and the Entity and Eternity are still very much byproducts of Phoenix the power of creation.

After the creation scene as they travel along the timestream in an attempt to understand life they finally discover the answer:

http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/245/fantasticfour532083ae.th.jpg

As we knew Eternitys the embodiment of all life in the universe. Everyone in 616 is an extension of Eternity as much a part of him as the stars. That is stated. Eternitys questions on his own existence were the trigger for the Big Bang. The manifestation of Phoenix. When Reed and the Entity travelled back to the pre 616 void and asked what is the meaning of life when they questioned existence they triggered the Big Bang instead. However it happened in the exact same way as when Eternity did it (prior to their time travelling and interference) because as revealed they are Eternity. They like everyone else are extensions of him. Therefore as stated the reason life was created in Marvel was because Eternity strived to understand his own existence (presumably whilst in the cosmic egg) and that proved to be the catalyst.

Reeds interference resulted in him actually being responsible for the creation of the F4. He was the intelligence behind the cosmic rays.

Eternity triggered off the Big Bang with his pondering and all life in Marvel are extensions of Eternity.

Those things were the revelations of that story arc. Nowhere did it state that Phoenix wasnt the Big Bang and nowhere did it say that Phoenix never created Eternity. As previous accounts all state those points are the case then a retcon hasnt taken place. We just know why and when the Big Bang occurs every creation cycle.

KgKg makes more sense

Originally posted by Evil Genius
KgKg makes more sense

Why because he disagrees with me? Why dont you actually explain why instead of showing your undying love for KG and Whirly

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Why because he disagrees with me? Why dont you actually explain why instead of showing your undying love for KG and Whirly

They explained it really well themselves, you don't get to the point enough, you just waffle.

Originally posted by Evil Genius
KgKg makes more sense Onthological arguments makes sense? Since when?

Your name is quite the misnomer. . . except for the evil part.

Originally posted by Evil Genius
They explained it really well themselves, you don't get to the point enough, you just waffle.

Explain how their arguments and their evidence is right in the face of what mine shows.

Kg for example says that the comic says Reed created the Big Bang however his owns scans say otherwise as do mine. How is he right?

Kg believes Reed and the Entity did all the work unto themselves when in fact they did it as extensions of Eternity as actually stated in my scans.

Kg said there was a retcon but nothing in the story arc or his evidence says Phoenix isnt the Big Bang. So how is he right? Wheres the retcon?

Like i thought

Oh how I love discussing nonsense...

So, if Eternity is the "embodiment of life" in the universe (not quite sure how to interpret that), it would make sense (sorta) that he would be the "first conscious being" to access the creative force preceeding the universe. If the Phoenix Force -- what the Marvel denizens call the energy of the archetype responsible for creating the MU -- is the bullet, Eternity is the gun.

If I am grasping the Reed & Entity sequence correctly, at least as presented by GS, their presence is, as stated, the trigger.

Hmmm.

Whether my interpretation is correct or not, may I offer the following to ponder:

One of the dangers of "ascension through the higher levels of reality" is that one identifies so powerfully with the archetype that he (or she) sees himself as subsuming the archetype, rather than the other way around. In other words, the "cell" -- in waking up to the consciousness of the whole body -- regards itself as the whole body, rather than seeing itself as only part of the body, witnessing the body and its functions already in motion.

Where am I going with this dribble?

Reed and the Entity see themselves as the trigger, when in fact creation was already occurring and they are simply witness to it.

You see (just bear with me, I'll zip it soon), if the Mighty Marvel Mystics knew their subject matter (at least as well as I'm hoping I do), they'd know that Creation isn't a one-shot deal. It is always going on, instant to instant, evolution from matter to spirit, and also involution from spirit to matter. Reed and the Entity, as "cellular" consciousness, merely were witnesses to, or at best parts of, this eternal cycle.

I hope this made some sense. I doubt this level of depth was anything like what Marvel intended. As I've stated previously, their main purpose was to entertain, even if one-upmanship was a big part.

Still -- never forget -- all this may still be the action of the Fallen One, whose own awareness functions several steps ahead of our own.

bag

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Like i thought he probably feels its all been said

Originally posted by Mindship
Oh how I love discussing nonsense...

So, if Eternity is the "embodiment of life" in the universe (not quite sure how to interpret that), it would make sense (sorta) that he would be the "first conscious being" to access the creative force preceeding the universe. If the Phoenix Force -- what the Marvel denizens call the energy of the archetype responsible for creating the MU -- is the bullet, Eternity is the gun.

If I am grasping the Reed & Entity sequence correctly, at least as presented by GS, their presence is, as stated, the trigger.

Hmmm.

Whether my interpretation is correct or not, may I offer the following to ponder:

One of the dangers of "ascension through the higher levels of reality" is that one identifies so powerfully with the archetype that he (or she) sees himself as subsuming the archetype, rather than the other way around. In other words, the "cell" -- in waking up to the consciousness of the whole body -- regards itself as the whole body, rather than seeing itself as only part of the body, witnessing the body and its functions already in motion.

Where am I going with this dribble?

Reed and the Entity see themselves as the trigger, when in fact creation was already occurring and they are simply witness to it.

You see (just bear with me, I'll zip it soon), if the Mighty Marvel Mystics knew their subject matter (at least as well as I'm hoping I do), they'd know that Creation isn't a one-shot deal. It is always going on, instant to instant, evolution from matter to spirit, and also involution from spirit to matter. Reed and the Entity, as "cellular" consciousness, merely were witnesses to, or at best parts of, this eternal cycle.

I hope this made some sense. I doubt this level of depth was anything like what Marvel intended. As I've stated previously, their main purpose was to entertain, even if one-upmanship was a big part.

Still -- never forget -- all this may still be the action of the Fallen One, whose own awareness functions several steps ahead of our own.

bag

Interesting ideas mindship - good stuff

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
he probably feels its all been said



Interesting ideas mindship - good stuff

But Mindships post didnt support you.

I'm posting the following cuz, IMO, it pales all that Marvel has done in its attempt to write The Biggest Story. Those who have seen Carl Sagan's Cosmos will recognize it at once.

"There is an idea -- strange, haunting, evocative -- one of the most exquisite conjectures in science or religion. It is entirely undemonstrated; it may never be proved. But it stirs the blood. There is, we are told, an infinite hierarchy of universes, so that an elementary particle, such as an electron, in our universe would, if penetrated, reveal itself to be an entire closed universe. Within it, organized into the local equivalent of galaxies and smaller structures, are an immense number of other, much tinier elementary particles, which are themselves universes at the next level and so on forever -- an infinite downward regression, universes within universes, endlessly. And upward as well. Our familiar universe of galaxies and stars, planets and people, would be a single elementary particle in the next universe up, the first step of another infinite regress."


Now, if this were incorporated into a mystical system...yowzer.

pizza

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Incorrect KG. As i have shown to posters before your post and as i will now show you:

http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/2458/ff531204tm.th.jpg

http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/6421/fantasticfour532010az.th.jpg

As you can see from these scans from both F4 531 and 532 respectively,it does NOT say that Reed created the Big Bang. You misread or misinterpreted. Either way it states that Reed and the Entitys desire to understand, their questions on their own existence were what triggered the Big Bang. Theres a difference between triggering something and creating it KG understand that.

If i light a stick of dynamite is the resultant explosion generated by my body? Does it derive from me directly or are my actions merely the catalyst?

Phoenix Force is the energies of creation it manifests as the Big Bang. This latest F4 story arc has revealed to us why and when Phoenix does that thats all.

As actually stated on panel their thoughts triggered it. They didnt create it. It didnt derive from them. Thats the difference. So no Phoenix is not a byproduct of Reed. You were incorrect. Reed and the Entity and Eternity are still very much byproducts of Phoenix the power of creation.

After the creation scene as they travel along the timestream in an attempt to understand life they finally discover the answer:

http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/245/fantasticfour532083ae.th.jpg

As we knew Eternitys the embodiment of all life in the universe. Everyone in 616 is an extension of Eternity as much a part of him as the stars. That is stated. Eternitys questions on his own existence were the trigger for the Big Bang. The manifestation of Phoenix. When Reed and the Entity travelled back to the pre 616 void and asked what is the meaning of life when they questioned existence they triggered the Big Bang instead. However it happened in the exact same way as when Eternity did it (prior to their time travelling and interference) because as revealed they are Eternity. They like everyone else are extensions of him. Therefore as stated the reason life was created in Marvel was because Eternity strived to understand his own existence (presumably whilst in the cosmic egg) and that proved to be the catalyst.

Reeds interference resulted in him actually being responsible for the creation of the F4. He was the intelligence behind the cosmic rays.

Eternity triggered off the Big Bang with his pondering and all life in Marvel are extensions of Eternity.

Those things were the revelations of that story arc. Nowhere did it state that Phoenix wasnt the Big Bang and nowhere did it say that Phoenix never created Eternity. As previous accounts all state those points are the case then a retcon hasnt taken place. We just know why and when the Big Bang occurs every creation cycle.
maybe am Blind

but i didn't see the Bunny just go back to "Darkness" Pre-Creation

and himself sparked Creation and created the Creation ( on his own will)

Nowhere did it state that Phoenix wasnt the Big Bang ----- Ok Pho is that makes her a tool used by Reed and Bunny

Originally posted by kgkg
maybe am Blind

but i didn't see the Bunny just go back to "Darkness" Pre-Creation

and himself sparked Creation and created the Creation ( on his own will)

Nowhere did it state that Phoenix wasnt the Big Bang ----- Ok Pho is that makes her a tool used by Reed and Bunny


It. Yes. The Phoenix Force as we've said before is a tool, Phoenix force is just another name for the power of creation.

Originally posted by Creshosk
It. Yes. The Phoenix Force as we've said before is a tool, Phoenix force is just another name for the power of creation.
so jean is not phoenix force. Do you agree

or the so call force can not act on it's own. Agree?

people can use the force ( just like any other source of energy). Agree?

Originally posted by kgkg
so jean is not phoenix force. Do you agree

or the so call force can not act on it's own. Agree?Nope and nope.

Jean is one with the force NOW. There are always things set up to allow creation to "create" be it other avatars or hosts or even just through people who are not agents acting on it (or god if he's calling the shots)'s behlaf. Such as the bunny/Reed.

Originally posted by kgkg
people can use the force ( just like any other source of energy). Agree? Yup. That's the trick though tapping into that energy source.

Wow, I'm on another board! I feel like the Beyonder in a new universe.

Seems to come down to this:

The Phoenix Force is the energies of creation. That's cool, I can accept that. But that equates the Phoenix Force less with sentient beings and more with energy sources like the Power Cosmic, the Power Primordial, Odinpower, Oan energy, Source energy and Magic.

If that's the case, and that's the only logical way to reconcile GS's unholy mess, then making Galactus vs. Phoenix Force threads are really as illogical as making Celestials vs. Power Cosmic threads. The Power Cosmic doesn't fight - it doesn't make decisions. It simply...is.

While the Force itself is simply an energy source, as proven by that issue of FF, there are beings who embody or represent the Phoenix Force. These are the avatars. Jean is an avatar, and perhaps even more than that. She is one with the Force, she's the embodiment of the Force...but she's NOT the Phoenix Force. If she were, she'd be omniscient...and she's not. She'd be omnipresent - she's not. he had to die in one timeline to be re-born in the future - she couldn't be in two places at once. She'd be omnipotent...and she's not. She was attacked and hurt, even in Here Comes Tomorrow. She was weakened in Endsong and needed energy. Since when do omnipotent beings, aspects of GOD, need to suck energy from optic blasts to retain its power? She wouldn't have to be told what to do by other Phoenix Avatars. She wouldn't have to listen to the mysterious "they" who told her she can't stay. She would have been able to fix the M'Kraan Crystal on her own. If she were THE Phoenix Force as GS is making it out to be, she wouldn't have any of those limitations. But she does have those limitations, and GS can't weasel his way out of them. She has those limitations because she's clearly NOT the Phoenix Force...she's simply an avatar, with perhaps a unique bond with the Force, and access to its full power.

That said, she's still a human, and her mastery and control is NOT absolute, nor is her wisdom. She's has total access to the Phoenix Force the way Galactus has total access to the Power Cosmic, the way the Elders have total access to the Power Primordial, the way the Guardians have total access to Oan power. That's extremely impressive, but it doesn't mean she's undefeatable.

Let's look at her fight with Galactus - her lack of knowledge about her true nature was shown. If she were THE Phoenix Force, she would have already known that she feeds on potential life. She doesn't, because she's not the Phoenix Force...she's a chick accessing power she doesn't really understand. She freaked out when Galactus told her the truth. Did she beat Galactus? Yes...but that's because her supply of energy is greater than his. It proves that the Phoenix Force is a less exaustible source of energy than the Power Cosmic, because it comes from potential life, whereas the Power Cosmic comes from existing life undone. Seems simple enough.

So...what does all of this mean? It means that JEAN GREY is more than capable of defeat, and you can use every showing, good and bad, to bolster a case for or against her. You can NOT use the role of the Phoenix Force to show that JEAN can beat anybody any more than you can use Galactus' feats with the Power Cosmic to show what Firelord could do. You can use it to show that the power of the Phoenix Force is limitless, but you can't just say, "Oh, Jean can blink everybody, including LT, out of existence because the PF is the primal force of creation". The PF IS the primal force of creation...Jean Grey is not.

And for the final time Jean Grey is NOT the Phoenix Force. She's an avatar. Just like all the rest of us will be one day.

Therefore Jean Grey is solidly below any and all abstracts, and possibly even Celestials. A lofty place to be, to be sure. GS should be proud. He also shouldn't overreach.

Well it's kind of like Spectre, She has as much power and knowledge as she's alloted by whoever it is that's handing down the orders.

But basically that that you said Demi is what at least I have been saying if not GS as well.

GS has NOT been trying to say that. If he had been trying to say that, he would clearly NOT have Jean Grey beating the likes of Eternity, the Brothers, The Spectre and least of all lthe Living Tribunal, because if he had been trying to say that, he'd know that she would lose to all of them.

When using Hulk in fights, we dont use "Infinitely Strong" Hulk, even if there's no cap to his limit. When using Galactus in fights, we don't use the "just finished eating the universe" Galactus even though he has unlimited absorbtion capacity. Likewise, we should not be using "Jean Grey with infinite wisdom and power" in fights. We should be using average versions based on average combat feats. No more, no less. And Jean's average combat feats, even as Phoenix, ain't nothing to write home to.

GS would sit there and clog up fairly straightforward fights like X-men vs. Fantastic Four with his endless shit about how Jean could just blink the FF away, chakra zulu blah blah. We KNOW what version of Jean the thread starter is talking about, and we KNOW he's not talking about the Phoenix Force. If GS were truly trying to say what I said above, he wouldn't have gone on for hundreds of pages on dozens of threads trying to convince everyone that Jean and the Phoenix Force are one. They aren't.

Originally posted by demigawd
GS has NOT been trying to say that. If he had been trying to say that, he would clearly NOT have Jean Grey beating the likes of Eternity, the Brothers, The Spectre and least of all lthe Living Tribunal, because if he had been trying to say that, he'd know that she would lose to all of them.

When using Hulk in fights, we dont use "Infinitely Strong" Hulk, even if there's no cap to his limit. When using Galactus in fights, we don't use the "just finished eating the universe" Galactus even though he has unlimited absorbtion capacity. Likewise, we should not be using "Jean Grey with infinite wisdom and power" in fights. We should be using average versions based on average combat feats. No more, no less. And Jean's average combat feats, even as Phoenix, ain't nothing to write home to.

GS would sit there and clog up fairly straightforward fights like X-men vs. Fantastic Four with his endless shit about how Jean could just blink the FF away, chakra zulu blah blah. We KNOW what version of Jean the thread starter is talking about, and we KNOW he's not talking about the Phoenix Force. If GS were truly trying to say what I said above, he wouldn't have gone on for hundreds of pages on dozens of threads trying to convince everyone that Jean and the Phoenix Force are one. They aren't.

Not that part of what you said, that part was the spectre part of my last post. Jean has shown to use power significant enough to beat most people, she did after all, stem off the future of 616 and repair it with but a thought, she was given the power to do exactly that, sort of like with spectre's varying power levels. Which is why showing this feat shows that she used the tool as the white crown phoenix would basically trump most characters, and that is jean as she is currently.

You wouldn't after all limit Galactus to Herald level feats adn abilities, So why would you with Jean.

Analogy wise,

Phoenix force - Cosmic power -Energy source
Jean grey white crown phoenix - Galactus - Most powerful user of said energy source.
Other Hosts(Rachel, quentin etc) - Heralds(Surfer, firelord etc) - Average user of energy source

Get what I'm saying here?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Not that part of what you said, that part was the spectre part of my last post. Jean has shown to use power significant enough to beat most people, she did after all, stem off the future of 616 and repair it with but a thought, she was given the power to do exactly that, sort of like with spectre's varying power levels. Which is why showing this feat shows that she used the tool as the white crown phoenix would basically trump most characters, and that is jean as she is currently.


Except her battle success is mixed, and that should be reflected in analyzing her if you're going to have an honest discussion about her combat acumen.



That's why I said that you have to take averages. Has Galactus been KO'ed by the likes of Thor? Yes. Has he been said to have the ability consume the universe if he wanted to? Yes. But when analyzing if he could beat Entity X, the truth must lie somewhere in between. So it is for Phoenix. Has she amputated a future? Yes. She has lost to Magneto? Yes. Her real self is somewhere in between. GS is 100% focused on the top feats and all too willing to dismiss the low feats, which skews his average, making his version of Phoenix unrealistic and unsupported by the preponderance of comic evidence.



I get what you're saying - and I agree with the analogies. HOWEVER, it's not clear that Jean really is THAT much greater than the other hosts. If you look at GS's scans....Jean was often confused and had to take advice from a computer. Her judgment and wisdom were both very much average and very much human. "They" communicated to her through another Avatar, who seemed to have a better grasp on what they were than Jean. It leads me to question just how much higher Jean really is than the others.

Personally, I wouldn't go further than saying Jean is the Tyrant to the other avatars' Silver Surfers.

Either way, Jean's potential may be unlimited, but you and GS fail to factor in the practicality of her very character...she's a young woman who sees things the way a young woman would. It's what would doom her against the highest entities in the omniverse.