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Who really won the one on one in Ep. 3 Yoda or Sidious

Despite what many believe, Sidious and Yoda stalemated eachother at individual times.

Sidious blasted Yoda across the room. Yoda eventually got back up and pushed Sidious across the room. Sidious was up on his feet, trying to escape. He KNEW then and there - that this was going to be a hard fight - one that he may very well NOT win. So, like all other dictators and cowards - he tried to run at the sign of adversity.

Yoda blocked him. Sidious and he fought. Yoda NEVER got through the defenses Sidious got up. Never. And at the same time, Sidious never tried to take the offensive. So Sidious wanted to tip the odds FIRMLY in his favor - by using the terrain and his superior knowledge of it.

So, realizing that duking it out with sabers was either going to take too long, or until one of 'em struck the other down, Sidious decided to take the advantage and put some distance between himself and Yoda. He used the pods and nearly beat Yoda. But Yoda pushed a pod back, and Sidious jumped to another pod.

Yoda then knew he had to take the advantage and moved in to take Sidious out by his blade. Sidious blasted Yoda's saber from him, and thusly took the only offensive source of power Yoda had. Sidious then thought he won, and then proceeded to blast Yoda. Yoda held it at bay, but was forced to remain stationary. Sidious moved forward, getting closer to Yoda. He figured all he had to do was sit and blast, until Yoda gave out, and got his little green ass fried.

What Sidious didn't tabulate, however, was that Yoda can REFLECT it as well. So, with as much effort as he could muster, Yoda pushed the lightning back. Sidious, being larger, stronger, and heavier, managed to not fly as far and maintain his grip. Yoda could not, and fell. He lost his saber. Sidious had the high ground.

Even IF Yoda could make it back, the odds were TERRIBLY stacked against him.

Yoda's Advantages at the End of the Duel:

NONE.

Sidious's Advantages at the End of the duel:
- Offensive Force powers
- The High Ground
- Possible Lightsaber
- Knowledge of the terrain
- Possible support

Sidious held all the cards. Yoda had none. Yoda fled not out of fear, but he made the smart move. He couldn't beat Sidious. He lost his one golden opportunity. And he failed.

Yoda's Objectives:
---------------------
Kill Sidious (failed)

Sidious's Objectives:
------------------------
1) Live to run the damn Empire (succeeded)
2) Kill Yoda (failed)

Perhaps Yoda could've beaten him anywhere else. I dunno. But at that duel, Sidious won.

Sidious won that duel, but without all of the advantages he had, Yoda would probably win. For example, if they fought in a desert, there would be no high ground advantage and Yoda could take him.

Sidious won. He aim was to survive, he succeeded.

Sidious won..

Yoda was the better fighter.

Sidious, though Yoda was winning probably about 1/2 the duel (he was winning until it came down to a Force Battle).

Yoda's stronger with a lightsaber, but Sidious is stronger with the Force.

There's really no evidence to indicate that.

Yoda and Sidious stalemated one another. It is wild speculation as to who would win had they been on even ground. That's not what this thread is about.

Sidious won. He didn't cheat - he fought smartly. Yoda held his own and it was obvious he and Sidious were evenly matched. So in a battle of the Force among these titans of the light and dark side - Sidious had to use his advantages to win.

Both were even. I know that's hard to wrap your head around, but BOTH were EVEN.

Sidious won, but he did have the high ground and yoda could'nt win, by himself atleast. He said he could'nt take the sith alone, he would need help.

This thread has been done to death.

It sure has.

And everyone, watch ROTS again. Watch as Yoda starts to counter Sidious' last lightning wave, from the edge of the pod and from a position of off-balance. Watch Sidious' face as Yoda reverses that wave back at him. Watch the next few seconds as Sidious manages to grab the handle of the pod from the resulting enegery burst. Watch as Yoda, already on the edge, cannot manage a grip and falls, already lightsaber less.

Better offensive force powers my ass.

I watched ATOC today, and at the fight with Dooku and Yoda, played it backwards in slow-mo. Yoda shooting lightning's da shit, dudes.

Sidious didn't win. . .Yoda and him stalemated eachother with the final lightning assault. . .Sidious obviously didn't fly as far though because he is bigger and heavier. Sidiou isn't a more powerful force user thats a load of crap.

Originally posted by Makashi
Sidious didn't win. . .Yoda and him stalemated eachother with the final lightning assault. . .Sidious obviously didn't fly as far though because he is bigger and heavier. Sidiou isn't a more powerful force user thats a load of crap.

Please read what I posted. It wasn't a Force stalemate- Yoda clearly came back from a position of disadvantage and overpowered Sidious. That's not a stalemate in terms of Force combat.

Yoda reversed the lightning back at Sidious' face. Sidious just got a better, more advantageous position. Yoda knew he wouldn't beat Sidious without a lightsaber, she he ran away. if Yoda had a better position than the very edge of the pod, the outcome could have been grossly different.

But then GL better try explaining the OT.

Well anyways. . .to say that Sidious is better than Yoda is just plain noobish.

Originally posted by Makashi
Well anyways. . .to say that Sidious is better than Yoda is just plain noobish.

No, just too hasty and presuming. Sidious is perhaps the only person who can really put Yoda to the test it seems, with the other candidate being the controversial Dooku. And since from what we see of Sidious and Yoda shows Sidious eventually getting all his tricks turned against him and winning through a stroke of luck, I put my money on Yoda.

The Sith Lord's superiority can be argued, for certain. he is, has you said, possibly the only person who could effectively threaten Yoda's life around in the movie era. Dooku, I'm not so sure about, not entirely. After re-watching the AOTC duel six times over now, twice in 8x slow-mo, once in reverse, and the others normally, I just have to say that Dooku in my mind isn't someone who can truly stand up to Yoda.

Originally posted by Gryn Jabar
This thread has been done to death.

lol are you following me and saying that

Dooku I think has a better chance against Yoda because of his pimp duelling skillz second only to Yoda. Palpatine's duelling style dind't really impress me much. . .it was like a cheap Sith copy of Ataru. But I have to admit that when he charged at Windu and the other Jedi with that triple lutz was cool.

Doesn't really matter. He put up a better fight than Dooku did. Trust me, I watched Sid's fight two weeks ago, and Dooku's, this morning.

i dont think anybody really one this fight, but if i had to say someone it would be sids cause he then built and empire ...and i dont see yoda ruling any empire

I still feel that Dooku is a better fight against Yoda. When he and Yoda fought they matched each other blade and blade. Whereas when Yoda fought Palpatine Yoda had complete control of the lightsaber end of the battle. To say that Palpy was just defending to get the high ground is bias and fanboyism, Yoda forced him onto the rising platform and Palpatine desperateran up and started throwing stuff. I am not saying he cheated by gaining the high ground I am only saying that he needs to use the area where he is duelling along with his own skills.

yeah and dooku was only trying to escape so he wasn't trying to kill anybody

Originally posted by Makashi
I still feel that Dooku is a better fight against Yoda. When he and Yoda fought they matched each other blade and blade. Whereas when Yoda fought Palpatine Yoda had complete control of the lightsaber end of the battle. To say that Palpy was just defending to get the high ground is bias and fanboyism, Yoda forced him onto the rising platform and Palpatine desperateran up and started throwing stuff. I am not saying he cheated by gaining the high ground I am only saying that he needs to use the area where he is duelling along with his own skills.

Did Yoda truly have complete control? No. Yoda's intent was to kill Sidious. If he had control over the fight - it meant he was capable of slaying Sidious. And he did not. Yoda took the advantage and immediately went on the offensive, using a barrage of saber assaults that Sidious simply couldn't use to gain the offensive. Yoda gained ground while Sidious willingly gave it. He did not have control of the duel. Otherwise, he would've broken through Sidious's defenses.

Sidious led the fight to the Senate pod. I watched the fight. It was Sidious who moved backwards, and then Yoda moved forward. Not the otherway around. Sidious willingly moved to the pod. He KNEW that in order to put the odds FIRMLY in his favor, it would need to come down to a ranged assault via the Force.

Sidious kept up with Yoda. Blow-for-fricken-blow. The fight cut out as soon as the Chancellor's platform began to rise into the Senate chamber. We do not know what happened - or who won the little lightsaber skirmish.

When we picked up - Sidious was chucking pods at Yoda, trying to knock him down. Yoda's immensely quick - and very small. A hard target to hit. Yoda dodged them all, the last one knocking him down. But he was closing in on Sidious. And Sidious was very much trying to stop him.

Sidious threw a pod. Yoda stopped it - held it in mid-air, concentrated, spun it, and threw it back. Is this a sign of Force superiority? No. Because if people will look carefully - when we Sidious throwing the pods - we see him standing in one pod - and two others levitating in the air on either side of him. He is holding them up. So the whole gravity thing isn't an issue.

Yoda's problem was catching the pod being THROWN at him. He had to effectively STOP IT. It required energy, and he did. Sidious was prolly then wondering "HOW in the HELL..." - and Yoda chucked it back. Sidious whirled away and landed on a pod. Yoda snapped to it. That then was his ONLY chance. Yoda moved in for the kill, and ignited his saber.

Sidious whirled - and blasted it out of his hands. Right there - at THAT moment - Yoda lost all hopes for an offensive advantage. However, the Jedi are more skilled at defensive than offensive - and he still had one final gamble.

His ability to block Force lightning.

Sidious threw lightning at Yoda. Yoda blocked it - and with extreme skill, too. The lightning was not getting through. But at the same time, Sidious was the one with the output of power. Yoda can block it - but he can't CONTROL it - so he was forced to remain stationary. Sidious moved closer, having the ability to control his lightning. It seemed to me that Sidious wanted to get as close as possible - and keep shooting until Yoda gave out and got blasted.

But. Yoda may not be able to control Sith lightning - but he can repel it. Sidious moved close enough for the lightning to coil effectively. He was standing in the middle of the pod. Yoda was almost on the edge. Yoda's expression then reflected effort and grim determination. Sidious had an expression of surprise and fear.

Yoda pushed the lightning back - with what seemed to be a GREAT deal of effort. Sidious got slammed. The Newtonian kickback resulted in Yoda being flung like a ragdoll. He hit a pod, slipped, and moved to grab the edge. His grip faltered. And he fell to the floor. Sidious was cackling like a jackass above, about to meet the same fate. But he managed to right himself.

Yoda fled for one reason.

NONE of them won the BATTLE. None of them did. It was a complete stalemate. The battle was to the death, and neither died.

But Sidious won the entire skirmish because his goals were accomplished where Yoda's were not.

There's no way in HELL Yoda could've went back and duked it out. I'm going to repeat this again:

Yoda's Advantages: NONE.

Sidious's Advantages:
- High ground
- POSSIBLE lightsaber
- Offensive Force powers
- Knowledge of the terrain
- Better condition (he wasn't as injured)
- POSSIBLE support (Clones)

Sidious is my favorite character. And he sure as hell didn't lose. But neither did Yoda. Yoda had one shot to take out Sidious. He failed. He would never likely get another chance. He knew that Sidious had the advantages - whereas he did not. He couldn't afford to duke it out with Sidious and live. So he made a SMART move - and fled.

In that same sense, I suppose you could say Sidious didn't make a decision REALLY based on cowardice. I suppose, when you consider HIS goals, what he tried to do (flee) was a smart move.

Yoda probably could've beaten Sidious in any other place. Own him? HELL no. Whoever thinks that needs to rewatch the duel. Yoda wouldn't own Dooku OR Sidious. Beat them? Yes. Own them? HELL no. EVER.

During the end of the fight, Sidious began to electrify Yoda, and Yoda countered the Lightning and blasted Sidious off of his rocker. Yoda's blast was so powerful, that he fell. I didn't see Sidious doing anything significant to win the fight.



"If so powerful you are, why leave?"


Exactly! Sidious tried to leave the office before they even fought. Of course this is after Sidious had been blasted into his chair with a defying force push.

Yoda fell from his own blast. Hell, you could say he defeated himself.

Sidious won nothing, because Yoda wasn't dead from him, nor severly hurt.

Originally posted by DarthMaul9123
yeah and dooku was only trying to escape so he wasn't trying to kill anybody

No, at first Dooku was trying to kill Yoda but when he realises he wasn;t going to be able to he chose the next best thing: Fleeing to fight another day. And in that fight it's debatable whether Yoda was trying to kill Dooku or not.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Did Yoda truly have complete control? No. Yoda's intent was to kill Sidious. If he had control over the fight - it meant he was capable of slaying Sidious. And he did not. Yoda took the advantage and immediately went on the offensive, using a barrage of saber assaults that Sidious simply couldn't use to gain the offensive. Yoda gained ground while Sidious willingly gave it. He did not have control of the duel. Otherwise, he would've broken through Sidious's defenses.

People should just read the movie script some times:
"PALPATINE seeks refuge in the vast Senate Chamber." Erm...Sidious seeks refuge because he's on par with Yoda in lightsaber combat ?

Or that:
"YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber... "

Or that:
"It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed."

Yeah ? What ? Yoda nearly killing Sidious and making him drop his lightsaber is not enough ? Sidious was inferior to Yoda in both: Force use and lightsaber combat and it's time that you accept that.



He was trying to escape because being confronted with an superior force user and lightsaber duellist.



Read the script. Yoda caused Sidious to drop his lightsaber and nearly killed him by fighting him over the edge of the pod.



Again read the f*cking script:
"The force causes YODA to drop his lightsaber." Yoda drops his lightsaber because he needs both hands to deflect Sidious lightning. Don't give Sidious credit for things he never did.



Yoda was the superior fighter and force user and Sidious was alive because:

a) otherwise the OT would be senseless
b) he got lucky



According to the AotC script Yoda outclassed Dooku (basically he was about to win after 30 seconds of fighting) and Dooku might be considered to be a better duellist than Sidious (who was disarmed by Yoda in less than a minute). Yoda would pretty much own Sidious in a lightsaber fight. A fight under fair conditions (like Yoda vs Dooku in AotC) would be like that:

- force battle with Sidious unable to overcome Yoda
- lightsaber duel with Yoda outclassing Sidious

Well...if you are about to defeat one opponent in 30 seconds and are able to disarm the other in less than a minute I would call that "ownage" in terms of lightsaber combat. But well...Yoda had 10 times the experience of Dooku or Sidious with that weapon and that has to be good for something.

Ahh, Nai Fohl returns. Good to have the purveyors of common sense return.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
People should just read the movie script some times:
"PALPATINE seeks refuge in the vast Senate Chamber." Erm...Sidious seeks refuge because he's on par with Yoda in lightsaber combat ?

Or that:
"YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber... "

Or that:
"It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed."

Yeah ? What ? Yoda nearly killing Sidious and making him drop his lightsaber is not enough ? Sidious was inferior to Yoda in both: Force use and lightsaber combat and it's time that you accept that.



He was trying to escape because being confronted with an superior force user and lightsaber duellist.



Read the script. Yoda caused Sidious to drop his lightsaber and nearly killed him by fighting him over the edge of the pod.



Again read the f*cking script:
"The force causes YODA to drop his lightsaber." Yoda drops his lightsaber because he needs both hands to deflect Sidious lightning. Don't give Sidious credit for things he never did.



Yoda was the superior fighter and force user and Sidious was alive because:

a) otherwise the OT would be senseless
b) he got lucky



According to the AotC script Yoda outclassed Dooku (basically he was about to win after 30 seconds of fighting) and Dooku might be considered to be a better duellist than Sidious (who was disarmed by Yoda in less than a minute). Yoda would pretty much own Sidious in a lightsaber fight. A fight under fair conditions (like Yoda vs Dooku in AotC) would be like that:

- force battle with Sidious unable to overcome Yoda
- lightsaber duel with Yoda outclassing Sidious

Well...if you are about to defeat one opponent in 30 seconds and are able to disarm the other in less than a minute I would call that "ownage" in terms of lightsaber combat. But well...Yoda had 10 times the experience of Dooku or Sidious with that weapon and that has to be good for something.

That script really ****s with DS' arguments.

Yup, the Presbyterian Church owned him.

If the script says that, then I consent.

Where do you get it, by the way.

Interesting. I found the script online. And I have indeed read the parts you used as proof. Odd enough, much of that fight was not used.

The fight regarding Count Dooku is another ambigious one. No where in the script does it remotely imply Dooku faking. If you're going to base things on a script - one that wasn't used completely, I might add - then it is safe to conclude that Anakin simply bested Dooku through superior skill as well.

It also says that Sidious simply cut the Jedi down, without usage of the Force to cloud their minds. So, we can also conclude Sidious bested them through superior skill.

It says that Mace was slammed against the wall by Sidious - who used the Force. I don't recall this happening. Perhaps a deleted scene?

It also says that Mace was killed under the sheer power of Sidious's lightning - instead of your theory of a Force push.

It also says that Sidious blasts Yoda fair and sqaure, without any indication of Yoda faking. According to the script, Yoda took a severe hit due to his own inability to defend himself.

Palpatine seeking refuge in the Chancellor's podium is correct. But refuge simply means a shelter from danger. I'm not disputing the fact that Yoda was highly dangerous. In fact, this only furthers my argument. Not only would he be safer from Yoda, but the odds would be tipped into his advantage. An intelligent move.

It also says that Yoda was about to kill Palpatine:

YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.

YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod. PALPATINE reaches out with one hand, and a Senate pod is released from its mooring and heads toward the Podium. PALPATINE uses the Force to hurl pod after pod at YODA, who ducks and jumps from one flying pod to another.

The sentence above that states that: It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

So. If Yoda was about to land a killing blow on Sidious, why did he flee to another pod? This did not happen in the movie - nor does it make any sense - along with a majority of the script.

It also says that Sidious's blast throws Yoda against the Chancellor's podium - which it did not. And it also states that when Yoda fell, Sidious took a pod to then search for him - to continue the fight.

Going by THAT script, the one YOU brought up, Yoda is also a coward because he fled when Sidious was still looking. The script also gives no indication of Clones being brought in, so that excuse is void.

See what I mean? That script is FULL of damn inconsistancies - which if you want to base the Sidious vs Yoda duel on, you have to base all of the movie on.

Which means many of your points that you attempted to make are now void.

I wouldn't bet too much on a script like that. Even if Lucas intended to use it, it is obvious that the movie was depicted otherwise - or he made last minute changes.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
People should just read the movie script some times:
"PALPATINE seeks refuge in the vast Senate Chamber." Erm...Sidious seeks refuge because he's on par with Yoda in lightsaber combat ?

Or that:
"YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber... "

Or that:
"It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed."

Yeah ? What ? Yoda nearly killing Sidious and making him drop his lightsaber is not enough ? Sidious was inferior to Yoda in both: Force use and lightsaber combat and it's time that you accept that.



He was trying to escape because being confronted with an superior force user and lightsaber duellist.



Read the script. Yoda caused Sidious to drop his lightsaber and nearly killed him by fighting him over the edge of the pod.



Again read the f*cking script:
"The force causes YODA to drop his lightsaber." Yoda drops his lightsaber because he needs both hands to deflect Sidious lightning. Don't give Sidious credit for things he never did.



Yoda was the superior fighter and force user and Sidious was alive because:

a) otherwise the OT would be senseless
b) he got lucky



According to the AotC script Yoda outclassed Dooku (basically he was about to win after 30 seconds of fighting) and Dooku might be considered to be a better duellist than Sidious (who was disarmed by Yoda in less than a minute). Yoda would pretty much own Sidious in a lightsaber fight. A fight under fair conditions (like Yoda vs Dooku in AotC) would be like that:

- force battle with Sidious unable to overcome Yoda
- lightsaber duel with Yoda outclassing Sidious

Well...if you are about to defeat one opponent in 30 seconds and are able to disarm the other in less than a minute I would call that "ownage" in terms of lightsaber combat. But well...Yoda had 10 times the experience of Dooku or Sidious with that weapon and that has to be good for something.

Amen Nai Fohl. Preach it.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
The fight regarding Count Dooku is another ambigious one. No where in the script does it remotely imply Dooku faking. If you're going to base things on a script - one that wasn't used completely, I might add - then it is safe to conclude that Anakin simply bested Dooku through superior skill as well.

No. It's not safe to conclude that Anakin bested Dooku through superior skill because we know that Obi-Wan and Anakin are on par when it comes to fighting skills and Dooku is superior to both of them.



That was a surprise attack and you know it but if you want to "conclude" that Sidious bested them through superior skill - ok. But than Mace and Yoda are both superior to Sidious.



LOL. Can you read ? It says that Sidious lightning pushed Mace out of the window an he fell to his death.



Oh...would you please think ? Yoda didn't have his lightsaber ready because he was deflecting Sidious force lightning so he had to gain distance to ready his lightsaber again and strike Sidious down since he doesn't have offensive force powers to kill Sidious. That's the reason while he later jumps to Sidious having his lightsaber in hand and then he has tro drop it because Sidious again starts attacking him with lightning.



You are stupid, aren't you ? Yoda didn't have his lightsaber any longer because he dropped it and fell down to the ground of the chamber after this. He had no chance to kill Sidious because he can't do this with force powers and his lightsaber was in a position where he couldn't reach it.



You can't simply lose, can you ? Watch the movie and you can see that Yoda is superior to Sidious in force use and lightsaber combat - I don't need a script for that because I have seen it with my own eyes.



Hooray. Scripts aren't valid if they contradict Mr.Darth Somebody's point of view. Nice to know that.

1. No. There is NOTHING to indicate in that script that Dooku was faking or whatever. According to that script, they fought - and Anakin simply beat him through superior skill. If you're going by this script, Nai, then Anakin won fair and square.

We know it's not true, but you wanted to bring up the script - and I'm showing you why it may show that Yoda could've killed Sidious - it also throws a lot of your crap back in your face.

2. You said Sidious used the Force to block their minds. You tried to excuse his skill on a cheap shot by the Force. And even IF he did, it was a fair shot - because there are no rules in a duel. This script proves that it was otherwise. Read it again - Palpatine stood up - grabbed his saber - muttered a line about treason and THEN flipped over the desk. Then he CHARGED them. They had their sabers already. No, Nai. Sidious ripped them apart because he was BETTER. Wrap your mind around that, already.

3. I agree. But YOU said Mace was pushed because of a Force push added to the lightning. According to that script, the sheer power of Sidious's assault threw him out of the window. Not a push.

4. That script said Yoda reflected Sidious's lightning - and said that he would kill Sidious. Then suddenly, Yoda flips away to a lower pod. The script gives no indication WHY he would do it - especially if he was going to land a killing blow. That not only does not make sense, but it's out of character for Yoda.

So no. I'm not stupid. All I see is you bringing up a script - which 45 percent of the material NOT being used - and trying to make it hold weight in the parts that the script's contents did NOT occur.

You're making excuses. Sidious owned the Jedi Masters - and I gave you proof. They had their sabers ignited - and were prepared to take him by force. Sidious stood up - grabbed his saber - muttered a line - flipped over his desk - and then CHARGED them.

If THAT isn't enough time for them to be prepared - as they should be already - then they deserved to die the hidious deaths he gave them.

YOU give ME proof that I'm wrong.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
1. No. There is NOTHING to indicate in that script that Dooku was faking or whatever. According to that script, they fought - and Anakin simply beat him through superior skill. If you're going by this script, Nai, then Anakin won fair and square.

We know it's not true, but you wanted to bring up the script - and I'm showing you why it may show that Yoda could've killed Sidious - it also throws a lot of your crap back in your face.

2. You said Sidious used the Force to block their minds. You tried to excuse his skill on a cheap shot by the Force. And even IF he did, it was a fair shot - because there are no rules in a duel. This script proves that it was otherwise. Read it again - Palpatine stood up - grabbed his saber - muttered a line about treason and THEN flipped over the desk. Then he CHARGED them. They had their sabers already. No, Nai. Sidious ripped them apart because he was BETTER. Wrap your mind around that, already.

3. I agree. But YOU said Mace was pushed because of a Force push added to the lightning. According to that script, the sheer power of Sidious's assault threw him out of the window. Not a push.

4. That script said Yoda reflected Sidious's lightning - and said that he would kill Sidious. Then suddenly, Yoda flips away to a lower pod. The script gives no indication WHY he would do it - especially if he was going to land a killing blow. That not only does not make sense, but it's out of character for Yoda.

So no. I'm not stupid. All I see is you bringing up a script - which 45 percent of the material NOT being used - and trying to make it hold weight in the parts that the script's contents did NOT occur.

You're making excuses. Sidious owned the Jedi Masters - and I gave you proof. They had their sabers ignited - and were prepared to take him by force. Sidious stood up - grabbed his saber - muttered a line - flipped over his desk - and then CHARGED them.

If THAT isn't enough time for them to be prepared - as they should be already - then they deserved to die the hidious deaths he gave them.

YOU give ME proof that I'm wrong.


1. No. There is NOTHING to indicate in that script that Dooku was faking or whatever. According to that script, they fought - and Anakin simply beat him through superior skill. If you're going by this script, Nai, then Anakin won fair and square.

We know it's not true, but you wanted to bring up the script - and I'm showing you why it may show that Yoda could've killed Sidious - it also throws a lot of your crap back in your face.

The script leaves a truckload of the fights out, my friend. They don't determinate every single swing or anything. Dooku was trying to encourage Anakin to use the Dark side of the force to defeat him. Dooku had chances in the fight to kill Anakin. Watch it again! I swear to god he could have raped Anakin and Dooku wasn't even using Form II. He faked. That's out of the f*cking question.


2. You said Sidious used the Force to block their minds. You tried to excuse his skill on a cheap shot by the Force. And even IF he did, it was a fair shot - because there are no rules in a duel. This script proves that it was otherwise. Read it again - Palpatine stood up - grabbed his saber - muttered a line about treason and THEN flipped over the desk. Then he CHARGED them. They had their sabers already. No, Nai. Sidious ripped them apart because he was BETTER. Wrap your mind around that, already.

Ok, you are correct. Nai, the Knights had their sabers ignited and were waiting for a strike. I wonder if Fisto was suprised when he was defending Sidious' slashes and then got put to the ground by a chest slash.

"But Sorgo, the JEdi were trying to read palpys mind!"

Or...

"They got suprised"

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/7092/000sasseecouldhave1cu.jpg

Sassee has his saber about to strike Sidious down. Sassee wasn't trying to read shit, nor was he suprised. He just got his ass handed to him because he sucks with a Lightsaber. The end.


3. I agree. But YOU said Mace was pushed because of a Force push added to the lightning. According to that script, the sheer power of Sidious's assault threw him out of the window. Not a push.


Correct again. Sidious charged his Lightning while he was frying Windu and let out a final burst of his Lightning to throw him fifty feet onto the Coruscant Streets. There was no push or you would have seen Palpatine's palms prop foreward.


4. That script said Yoda reflected Sidious's lightning - and said that he would kill Sidious. Then suddenly, Yoda flips away to a lower pod. The script gives no indication WHY he would do it - especially if he was going to land a killing blow. That not only does not make sense, but it's out of character for Yoda.


Meh.... Whatever.



So no. I'm not stupid. All I see is you bringing up a script - which 45 percent of the material NOT being used - and trying to make it hold weight in the parts that the script's contents did NOT occur.

You're making excuses. Sidious owned the Jedi Masters - and I gave you proof. They had their sabers ignited - and were prepared to take him by force. Sidious stood up - grabbed his saber - muttered a line - flipped over his desk - and then CHARGED them.

If THAT isn't enough time for them to be prepared - as they should be already - then they deserved to die the hidious deaths he gave them.

YOU give ME proof that I'm wrong.

Yes, Sidious did. The Script isn't nothing because alot of things were taken out. Nothing in the script can be properly accounted for because it doesn't administer things into full elaboration of it's current state. Sorry, Nai. You're wrong this time around.

Sorgo. Where'd ya get that signature?

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
1. No. There is NOTHING to indicate in that script that Dooku was faking or whatever. According to that script, they fought - and Anakin simply beat him through superior skill. If you're going by this script, Nai, then Anakin won fair and square.

Have you seen the movie ? He was kicking them around - he could have killed both of them in serveral occasions - now say Anakin has siperior skill is stupid.



Show me the line where it says "Anakin cut Dookus hands of due to superior skill". Wait...there is no line saying that ? OMG ?!



Who cares ? I always said that the only people that can win against Sidious in a 1vs1 are Mace, Yoda and Dooku. Now Mace = or inferior to Dooku; Mace > Sidious, Yoda > Sidious. Is there something else you want to debate ?



Where did I ever say that ?



Where does it say that Sidious own lightning would kill Sidious ? Learn how to read.
The script says that Yoda needs both hands to deflect Sidious lightning (that's why he drops his lightsaber later). How should he use both hands to deflect the lightning and - at the same time - use his lightsaber to kill Sidious ?



45 % of the material not used ? Shall I laugh ? The script is actually more "canon" material than the novelizations. So what ?



What are you coming to discuss the goddamn "Sidious owning three Jedi masters scene" again ? If you haven't realized it: This thread is about Yoda and Sidious and Yoda would own (read it O W N) Sidious in a regular fight.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Sorgo. Where'd ya get that signature?

I made it. I can make you one. What SW characters do you like?

Jesus, DS.... not this again. Go argue that Sidious rules on some movie fanboy site. Not here.

And btw, I suggested that Mace was Force pushed, since he suddenly flew out of the window. Now, I thought that a Force push was used, since Mace's defenses against telekinesis are pretty much gone when he's being shocked. If it was the sheer power of Sidious' lightning that made him fly out that far, why the hell wasn't he out the window on the first hit? If the power was that great, how was Mace Windu able to withstand the brunt of it from point blank range with his saber? The answer is it isn't that concussively powerful- Sidious most likely used a Force push to send Mace sprawling, and his hand moving or not moving isn't a factor.

I actually don't believe that Force lightning has enough kinetic force on its own to do what Sidious and Dooku have done with it.

In AOTC, when Dooku electrocutes Anakin, the lightning courses through him for a moment, before he is thrown sideways into a wall. A throw through the Force much like when Dooku threw Obi-Wan like a rag doll.

In ROTS, I believe that Sidious did indeed use an additional Force power in the form of a push to rocket Mace's near-dead form out the window.

The reason perhaps, that Yoda was sent flying into a wall was because of his small size. Likely enough to be lifted clean off of the ground. Although there may be more to it.

Well...

If you compare Sidious force lightning in ROTS and than in ROTJ his lightning seems to have much less kinetic energy as Luke is still able to avoid being blown in the reactor core.

Palpatine was only torturing Luke at that point. If you need proof, you'd see that Palpatine was in no hurry to slay Luke, and also broke of the lightning assault from time-to-time - gloating and muttering off lines about how his feeble skills were no match for the power of the Dark Side.

Palpatine could've killed Luke if he wanted. But his arrogance got the better of him, so he merely tortured a dying son in front of his conflicted father. Which led to his downfall...down a reactor shaft.

But no. If Palpatine went all out - from what we've seen in ROTS - he could've killed Luke with severe ease.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Palpatine was only torturing Luke at that point. If you need proof, you'd see that Palpatine was in no hurry to slay Luke, and also broke of the lightning assault from time-to-time - gloating and muttering off lines about how his feeble skills were no match for the power of the Dark Side.

Palpatine could've killed Luke if he wanted. But his arrogance got the better of him, so he merely tortured a dying son in front of his conflicted father. Which led to his downfall...down a reactor shaft.

But no. If Palpatine went all out - from what we've seen in ROTS - he could've killed Luke with severe ease.

Could you please argue that point every time someone says that ROTJ Luke is pimp because he 'absorbed' lightning for a full minute.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...

If you compare Sidious force lightning in ROTS and than in ROTJ his lightning seems to have much less kinetic energy as Luke is still able to avoid being blown in the reactor core.

Well, he slams into a group of barrels as soon as the torturous lightning hits him. And there was that guardrail behind him.

And in ROTS, Mace takes Sidious' full force without budging. That is, until he gets blown out the window. . .

Thanks for the inconsistancies, George.

Yeah, well, better than nothing. And it can be explained, when I have the time and patience.

Here's mine- Sith Lightning operates under the Dramatic Neccessity Theory (DNT). It's like the T-Virus in Resident evil- its actual effects do whatever the script and director tells them to do, having no basis in fact.

If I shot you with lightning of that magnitude (judging from the fact that it's a visible arc of energy) for longer then a second, I'd stop your heart, and you'd be dead. And if you absorbed it with a blade of light, you've already went ahead and tossed the rules out of the window. Then you have a man who was maimed, the wounds cauterized, and yet has functional synthetic limbs. And despite being burned horribly in something that would kill a real human being, or put them in shock so bad they couldn't recover... or even melt them like a candle (Yes, this can happen) and the scar tissue will make them look like Quasimodo backing up, to suddenly look like Powder with a slight scratch mark on you after nearly twenty some years of wearing a black suit that can't make pooping fun (Imagine trying to get out of it when you have to go) ... damn... inconsistancies abound. For the sake of dramatic purpose.

Well, considering their advanced age, I imagine they'd be able to treat Vader somewhat. . . But yes, you're right. Hey, it's Star Wars. When a ship the size of a one-story house can accelerate to 1.5 times the speed of light,

That can theoretically happen. However, when you consider the power needed to generate a moon sized space station, and the power this station can maintain to destroy a planet with a beam in under a second (entirely, all of the matter obliterated) and NOT have a power flux. I mean, hell... I turn on the air conditioner when the computer's on and I have to back up my saved data. That must be some REAL electrician's work. Those Wookie slaves sure are talented.

Geonosian bugs. . .

I don't care if eight million Anakin Skywalkers created the Death Star- it's source of power must be near infinite, because it uses more power than a planet does.

lol Its only a movie guys, realx..

And a kids movie at that.

Did you know that? Staw Wars is really a childrens movie..

Lmfao

Really? Is that why it depicted decapitations, dismemberments, has big words like "Constitution" and "unifying Force" in it, and touches on all sorts of traditional mythical values and morals? You mean this whole time I was watching a kids movie?

Please, stfu. Saying Star Wars is geared entirely towards children is ignorance.

Edited

Reported

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Really? Is that why it depicted decapitations, dismemberments, has big words like "Constitution" and "unifying Force" in it, and touches on all sorts of traditional mythical values and morals?

Hey, btw, you mind telling me what Star Wars movie mentions the word "Constitution" and/or the "Unifying Force"...since what i was referring to were the movies. Unless you don't know how to use logic, which i suspect you don't with the evidence at hand.

Secondly, are you saying kids shows like cartoons and children's programming don't contain values and morals sometimes traditional and every once in a while mythical? Can we say Disney? For example?

I'm not one your regular *uckheads that come in here looking for BS cause I'm not a trouble maker, I'm a trouble bringer..

i dunno, perhaps your just a natural born *******, Janus, not because of what you say but the type of person you are in here. so far, without mentioning any names, Ive got about a dozen email telling me how much of a *ss you are, not because of the debates but because your just plain a bad person. as if you're just someone people would be extremely uncomfortable around because of your person.

Janus, you suck.

1 Janus rocks
2 i didnt report that one but i can so shut up or youll get banned please calm down

Originally posted by atlant80
Reported

Uh..**** you too..

report me then, *****..see if i care..

think i care if they kick me..

no..so suc a fat veiny one..lo

omfg ban this guy. Reported

Wow. Yeah, you need to be straightened out. Reported indeed. You're outright ridiculously combative and offensive.

tsk. tsk. Fist, you tempt me to say mean things to you, but you may not understand the meaning of them. I don't think they enter your little world.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
tsk. tsk. Fist, you tempt me to say mean things to you, but you may not understand the meaning of them. I don't think they enter your little world. lol thats good and how come no one reports us (Fishy, you, janus, etc.) i will never do that but still

Are you asking why no one ever reports me? If you are, I do get reported, but they usually see it is in defense of someone who is getting bashed and I'm not generally to offensive, but I did get banned for two weeks before.

I have been reported by Tommy Vercetti, but I've apparently never been so bad that a mod wanted me out of the picture. Most I've had is a mild warning from Rex for making a stupid thread.

ahhh got you how about the rest of you guys Fishy Sorgo etc

Fishy never offends anyone that bad. Sorgo... I'm surprised he hasn't been banned, but he's probably like me- walking a very fine line.

got ya but i dont hear you say anything that bad! okay but they where required

Sorgo and I were threatened to being banned when DantheMan first came back and we supported him. That was a fun night. I got like three warnings from different moderators.

Not that many, or you would've been banned.

Fist is out of line, I'll send him a warning, or telling Ush to.

It was three warnings for the exact same thing about a minute apart apeice. You sent me one, Windancer, and I think it was Ush or LanceWindu(or someone with a similar name).

Wow, that's some major ganging up.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Wow. Yeah, you need to be straightened out. Reported indeed. You're outright ridiculously combative and offensive.

straightened out?... how? but getting me banned from here..lol, so?

i come one here rarely anyway, do it..lol ill give 2 shits.

and i didn't get offensive, i got defensive. you came at me.

so go tell.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
tsk. tsk. Fist, you tempt me to say mean things to you, but you may not understand the meaning of them. I don't think they enter your little world.

Attempt away..

i challenge you...

small one.

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Attempt away..

i challenge you...

small one.

Hahaha. That's a good one fist. You should become a comedian.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Hahaha. That's a good one fist. You should become a comedian.

No jokes.

I'm waiting.

And if that was a shot. I'm sure you'll do better next time.

Fist, as your first offense, you only get a warning. But that's what it is: a warning that you should knock it off. Further instigation will lead to more warnings, and then a temporary ban. Just so you know.

Consider it an official warning, then.

Rex, why when I got banned was there no warnings?

The Mod's can be slackers some times.

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
straightened out?... how? but getting me banned from here..lol, so?

i come one here rarely anyway, do it..lol ill give 2 shits.

and i didn't get offensive, i got defensive. you came at me.

so go tell.

You're "getting defensive" was about three posts of pure cussing. Hardly mature. So please, stuff your macho "I don't care lol ban me I don't even like forums, which is why I reply all the damn time" attitude.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Not that many, or you would've been banned.

Fist is out of line, I'll send him a warning, or telling Ush to.

i expected a permanent ban which i would've accepted with no problem.

but i will say that you unjustified the situation when i recieved whatever your dishing out on behalf of Janus's request without finding out why i got defensive..

but hey whatever..

It's perfectly justified. You broke the rules. It doesn't matter if you were annoyed or defensive, what you did was over the line. If someone annoys you to the point where you kill him, it doesn't mean you didn't commit murder.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
You're "getting defensive" was about three posts of pure cussing. Hardly mature. So please, stuff your macho "I don't care lol ban me I don't even like forums, which is why I reply all the damn time" attitude.

my sentiments exactly, Janus

are you saying you were "teasing"?

I'm assuming it's what you're implying with your pic..otherwise it'd make no sense putting it up for another reason.

proving that you are who you are, man..

and i reply cause i know it's what you don't want. for someone to reply to your retorts. your not use to it cause you threaten reporting the person just like you did me even when you start it, which i know you always do..

Funny, huh...you start by telling me to "STFU", i defend myself, you go tell, and i get in trouble..lol i don't know what sex you are but I'm going to assume female.

Originally posted by Illustrious
It's perfectly justified. You broke the rules. It doesn't matter if you were annoyed or defensive, what you did was over the line. If someone annoys you to the point where you kill him, it doesn't mean you didn't commit murder.

what rules did i break that Janus didn't break first..?

if you're talking about swearing then dont. he came at me 1st and i countered.

so tell me what rule i broke,...

Janus wasn't the one swearing profusely.

Now give it a rest, or the thread will be locked.

And Glentract, you weren't banned, where you? There were warnings, but not enough to send you off.

maybe not profusely, but he did swear...do you know what "STFU" means?

it's what he started this whole mess with..

your actions, Cpt. Rex, make me think that it would be alright for me to say one swear word but not more than one..im perplexed..

it's what injustice does to me i guess...

now Star Wars..

Yes, Star Wars does have swear words, like damn, hell, and eskimo.

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Fuc you, cuntss..lol

you stupid f*ggot-ass bastard...

ROTS was the first SW movie to get a PG 13 rating, dic

so you stfu, *sshole, ya blowhard..

the nerve of gay SW dorks in here. lol

un****ingbelieveable...lmao

STFU is said all the time on here, it's really just like saying 'be quiet, dork' or 'shut up, you're annoying me with dumbness.'

But that? That up there? Too much, and over the line. Don't try to tell me what's unfair, I'm working off of Raz's rules, which you can view on the rules page.

Dude, that FistingtheNorth guy needs some homemade prozack. And then a group-hug. And then being shot from a canon into Bin Laden's ass.

Minus the shooting into bin Laden's ass and all's well.

lol

Originally posted by Tangible God
Yes, Star Wars does have swear words, like damn, hell, and eskimo.

Eskimo is only a swear word if you're from the Western hemisphere, dude... lol

And Rex, Glentract was banned on the spot I think by Winddancer. ... I think. Having a hard time remembering because everyone changes sigs so often.

Hmm. I don't remember that. *shrug*

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Eskimo is only a swear word if you're from the Western hemisphere, dude... lol Ah well, "Eskimo's" just a word, it doesn't really MEAN anything. Just like "Ramalamadingdong," or, "Give Peace a Chance."

Originally posted by Captain REX
Minus the shooting into bin Laden's ass and all's well.

oh i get it..so, Rex, can i call you a dumbass, since you're saying it to me and you're going by rules.

And can i say i'd shoot you out of a canon into chewbacca's ass.

hey you said ass, i can say it..we're going by the rules right...

flaiming mods. you're screwed now. this might get Raz's attention now.

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
oh i get it..so, Rex, can i call you a dumbass, since you're saying it to me and you're going by rules.

And can i say i'd shoot you out of a canon into chewbacca's ass.

hey you said ass, i can say it..we're going by the rules right...

Goodbye Mr. FistOfThe North you made the same mistake Human Vader did (and I still miss HV to this day).

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
oh i get it..so, Rex, can i call you a dumbass, since you're saying it to me and you're going by rules.

And can i say i'd shoot you out of a canon into chewbacca's ass.

hey you said ass, i can say it..we're going by the rules right...

Reported, Fist. We'll see what WD thinks. That's all I'm going to say; I won't fall to your pathetic level.

And no, you can't, by the way.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Reported, Fist. We'll see what WD thinks. That's all I'm going to say; I won't fall to your pathetic level.

And no, you can't, by the way.

That's it Rex! Go get him! Exercise that dictator power!

lol!

Rex walks softly and caries mod powers.

I walk softly? I'll have to work on that...

lmao..

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
The fight regarding Count Dooku is another ambigious one. No where in the script does it remotely imply Dooku faking. If you're going to base things on a script - one that wasn't used completely, I might add - then it is safe to conclude that Anakin simply bested Dooku through superior skill as well.

I agree. At some point, Dooku must have realized that Anakin was much better than he had been last time, and then fought all out. Also, being the Count of Sorenno, and thus politically adept, I cannot accept that he was not aware of Sidious' habit of acquiring new apprentices often.



Since this is part of the EU forum: you may recall from the Jedi Knight games that force lightning pushes things. Like people. Really far when its powerful.
I also don't recall Mace being pushed into any walls, but I don't doubt Sidious' ability to do so.
I don't remember where I heard it, but someone once told me that the first jedi Sidious killed in that scene was trying to sense his intentions, and was not focused enough in the moment. The second just was a terrible warrior, and the third (again drawing on EU sources) always supported Palpatine and was probably in a state of shock and disbelief.



This part has always baffled me. Yoda has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he is capable of handling lightning. Maybe he too was trying too hard to sense Sidious' intentions, and was caught by surprise. It seems unlikely he would make such a mistake, but its the best I can come up with. The raising of the hands seems like a pretty strong visual cue.



That seems about right.



It appears to me that the moment where Yoda was going to kill Sidious was on the Chancellor's podium, after a saber lock. Sidious managed to flee up into the pods. Yoda jumped from the podium to a pod lower than the one Sidious was on, intending to make his way up. Which he did, eventually.



Remember after the force feedback blast when Yoda flew through the air and hit a surface, then slid down its side, attempting to cling to it by his fingernails. That was the podium.



Yoda fled because he no longer had the means to kill Sidious, which was his only goal in being there. Without his lightsaber, and the self-imposed limitations of never using the force for attack, there were no offensive options. Ironically, this point also makes your argument correct, even though your details are...vague. Sidious did in fact defeat Yoda once Yoda could no longer kill Sidious.

gee, the winner is probably the one who became complete and unquestioned ruler of the galaxy, just a thought

Originally posted by jollyjim311
gee, the winner is probably the one who became complete and unquestioned ruler of the galaxy, just a thought

Well, no Yoda fanboy or Sidious hater would dispute the fact that Sidious didn't win. He did win. Yoda himself said he failed. So there's no real need to discuss this, but people do anyways.

... And Sidious fanboys argue semantics and emphasis all sorts of vague points to undermine Sidious' weakness in saber combat.

Precisely, Jedi Musicians. But then you have a select group of people who shall remain anonymous - who like to pretend that Yoda won the fight and that he owned Sidious. Nai brought up the intended script for Revenge of the Sith. Yet, the vast majority of that fight scene was not used for the actual movie itself - so I am inclined to agree with what happened in the movie itself.

Point being: Nai is wrong. The scripted fight scene is NOT consistant with the movie.

Yoda didn't win. He couldn't have won. He left, Nai, because he could NOT kill Sidious when he lost his saber.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
... And Sidious fanboys argue semantics and emphasis all sorts of vague points to undermine Sidious' weakness in saber combat.

And Dooku fanboys argue that their cult leader - Dooku himself - could own Sidious in any category he very well pleased, but ironically can't excuse why Dooku feared Sidious or why he never tried to takeover - because AFTERALL, the Dooku Fanboys stress the point that Dooku could do ANYTHING Sidious could.

But he could!

No seriously, I'm no Dooku fanboy. Be nice or I'll insult you again.

And please don't refer to me as a "fanboy". A "fanboy" is Sorgo or our departed Emperor Revan, who cannot consign any of their great idols to defeat. If you will gaze around the forums, you will ironically see that I admit and can tell people when Sidious is beaten - whether it is just barely or if he is flat-out "owned".

Try not to call me a fanboy, Janus. It simply won't work.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
But he could!

No seriously, I'm no Dooku fanboy. Be nice or I'll insult you again.

See, with me, that works both ways. In order for me to be nice, one has to return the favor.

I didn't NAME you or declare you a Dooku fanboy. I simply made a point that you cannot give a legitimate explanation as to why Dooku feared Sidious - which you have admitted that he did. So, it would appear to me that Dooku - being a shrewed and intelligent man in his own right - had a REASON to fear Sidious.

Ever think of it like that?

Or, you could say Dooku was manipulated. But then again, you'd have to tread lightly there. By saying that, you'd be prooving that Sidious is quite capable of manipulating just about anyone, including strong willed men like Count Dooku. Which thusly means that Sidious might be GOOD at something. And we know that the thought of Sidious being good at anything is highly frowned upon.

Keep the tradition.

The thing that makes you come off as a fanboy is your insistance to argue semantics in the Mace versus Sidious fight, saying that duelling ability and fighting ability are two different things and Mace isn't the superior duellist because he kicked Sidious' saber out of his hands... It's really silly. People who argue semantics can't admit defeat, and that is fanboyism.

Or, you might try to take on the view of Nai Fohl - who so endlessly preached that Sidious caught the Jedi Masters by complete surprise and that how he only defeated them through a combination of surprise and how he used the Force to cloud the minds of the three.

And I believe Faunus and myself calmly, rationally, and completely managed to obliterate all possibilities of that. Sorgo himself agrees. They simply were outmatched.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
The thing that makes you come off as a fanboy is your insistance to argue semantics in the Mace versus Sidious fight, saying that duelling ability and fighting ability are two different things and Mace isn't the superior duellist because he kicked Sidious' saber out of his hands... It's really silly. People who argue semantics can't admit defeat, and that is fanboyism.

Aaah. The Mace vs Sidious debate.

Well then, if that is the case, perhaps I ought to word it a tad differently. Mace Windu has displayed NOTHING that would make him superior with a lightsaber - in sheer skill with a blade. We've seen that he's superior at dealing out lethal kicks. But what does that make him? Better with a blade? Hardly, Janus.

So by your definition of dueling - then Mace is superior. But in sheer blade-to-blade skill - something that we've only seen Count Dooku use - he may very well be "inferior" to Sidious.

Oh, and by your definition of dueling - Vader could hypothetically best Count Dooku as a duelist.

-----

Count Dooku swung his red blade down in an arc. Vader slammed his own crimson saber into Dooku's, managing to block the arc. Vader and Dooku closed in on one another - locked in a contest of sheer strength. Vader released a hand from the hilt, his mechanical arm still powerful enough to hold off Dooku's two hands. Then, Vader swung hard, and backhanded Dooku as hard as he could muster.

A wet snap emerged from Dooku's neck as his head twisted around. The red saber de-activated, and fled into the curved silver hilt. Dooku fell to his knees, his mouth slack - and then fell forward to the cold metal floor, his saber skittering across the cold tiles.

----

The End.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Aaah. The Mace vs Sidious debate.

Well then, if that is the case, perhaps I ought to word it a tad differently. Mace Windu has displayed NOTHING that would make him superior with a lightsaber - in sheer skill with a blade. We've seen that he's superior at dealing out lethal kicks. But what does that make him? Better with a blade? Hardly, Janus.

So by your definition of dueling - then Mace is superior. But in sheer blade-to-blade skill - something that we've only seen Count Dooku use - he may very well be "inferior" to Sidious.

You seriously are a terrible debater. Arguing semantics is pointless because you can just change the wording a bit or change this or that and the argument starts anew.

First off, assuming that people fight purely with blades is unrealistic. This is not a fencing match; this is a battle to the death. Sidious obviously coudln't dictate the rules of engagement with his saber, and was disarmed as a result. Whether this was a kick (Which is a hell of a lot easier to see coming than a swift manuever with a sword disarming someone) or a punch or whatever, Sidious was defeated. Instead of trying to make it out like Mace never overcame Sidious in saber combat thus he can't ever possibly do so and must therefore not be superior in skill, you should look at it realistically.

- Mace put Sidious entirely on the defensive.

- Mace put Sidious into a situation where he had to use inhuman acrobatics to avoid strikes.

- Mace disarmed Sidious rather easily.

- Sidious was on his back. His lightning was ineffective at killing or stunning Mace, and his salvation was Anakin Skywalker.

Using these points, we can then apply the Razor. Specifically, what that means is we use the simplest possible solution as the most accurate one, removing any unknowns. Since you're arguing that Mace could be equal to or less superior than Sidious in lightsaber combat, and I'm arguing that he was obviously more skilled, let's apply the Razor to find a happy medium.

Premise #1: Mace Windu put Sidious on the defensive.

Premise #2: Mace Windu found an opportunity to disarm Sidious and took it.

Premise #3: Sidious was on his back, unable to push back the jedi master or slay him either at this point or beforehand.

Simplest and most straightforward conclusion, relying NOT on unknowns: Mace Windu soundly defeated Sidious.

There. Your move.

So by your definition of "blade on blade" combat, you can't use your feet, because they have contact with the ground: it's not a match of who's more nimble, it's a match of who's better with a blade.

You can't use your arms: it's not a match of who's more dexterous or who's stronger, it's a match of who's better with a blade.

You can't use the force: it's not a match of who's more sensitive, or who's more powerful, it's a match of who's better with a blade.

You can't use your head: it's not a match of who's smarter, or who's tactically superior, it's a match of who's better with a blade.

You can't use your eyes: it's not a match of who can see the blade better, it's a match of who's better with a blade.

You can't use your reflexes: it's not a match of how fast you can react, it's not a match of how quickly you respond and adjust, it's a match of who's better with a blade.

If a kick doesn't count, then I don't know what does. Your argument that Sidious may not be the inferior "duelist" is a petty and illogical one, I suggest you stop.

I'm a terrible debater? Lol. Alright. Damn. You sure haven't made any attempt to argue anything else but the Mace vs Sidious issue, which is where I'm "arguing sematics". So, please shed some light on the following.

1. Why Dooku feared Sidious if he was superior.
2. Why Dooku's death was all arranged by Sidious if he were smarter.
3. Why - by your definition of dueling - Dooku can beat Vader (because let's face it, two punches at maximum, and Dooku's dead).

If not, then shut the hell up and admit it that Dooku had a REASON to fear Sidious. That it in itself speaks for something. If you CAN argue it, then do it.

Until that moment - either you soundly BEAT me in this debate - or until you admit you're WRONG - we'll be arguing with one another for a long time.

Originally posted by Illustrious
So by your definition of "blade on blade" combat, you can't use your feet, because they have contact with the ground: it's not a match of who's more nimble, it's a match of who's better with a blade.

You can't use your arms: it's not a match of who's more dexterous or who's stronger, it's a match of who's better with a blade.

You can't use the force: it's not a match of who's more sensitive, or who's more powerful, it's a match of who's better with a blade.

You can't use your head: it's not a match of who's smarter, or who's tactically superior, it's a match of who's better with a blade.

You can't use your eyes: it's not a match of who can see the blade better, it's a match of who's better with a blade.

You can't use your reflexes: it's not a match of how fast you can react, it's not a match of how quickly you respond and adjust, it's a match of who's better with a blade.

If a kick doesn't count, then I don't know what does. Your argument that Sidious may not be the inferior "duelist" is a petty and illogical one, I suggest you stop.

Illustrious.

So you're telling me that you have to kick or punch to utilize all of the above? You're telling me that if I wanted a duel where it is strictly blade to blade - and no punching or kicking - that means I'm saying we can't use our feet or arms at all?

No. The ability to punch someone doesn't make them stronger or a better bladesman. Don't try to pretend like it is. So I suggest YOU stop taking my statements out of context.

Using our feet in basketball or football doesn't mean we have to drop kick the nearest opponent. Damn...

*sigh*

So please don't act like I'm saying blade-to-blade combat is where we warrant off the usage of eyes, intellect, feet, and arms. It's rather sad of you to state that I am implying it. You needn't use your arms or your legs in anything to just punch and kick people. And that is precisely what I am saying.

Consider Dooku, who can disarm by efficiently manuevering his wrist against an opponent, and rip that person's blade out of his or her hands, without the need to punch or kick anyone. That is what I am saying.

Dooku's way of combat. Blade-to-blade. That is what I am saying. There is nothing to indicate that in sheer blade-to-blade capacity that Mace is superior. Is he? It's possible.

But that's all I'm saying.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
I'm a terrible debater? Lol. Alright. Damn. You sure haven't made any attempt to argue anything else but the Mace vs Sidious issue, which is where I'm "arguing sematics". So, please shed some light on the following.

1. Why Dooku feared Sidious if he was superior.
2. Why Dooku's death was all arranged by Sidious if he were smarter.
3. Why - by your definition of dueling - Dooku can beat Vader (because let's face it, two punches at maximum, and Dooku's dead).

If not, then shut the hell up and admit it that Dooku had a REASON to fear Sidious. That it in itself speaks for something. If you CAN argue it, then do it.

Until that moment - either you soundly BEAT me in this debate - or until you admit you're WRONG - we'll be arguing with one another for a long time.

It's never mentioned why Dooku fears Sidious. It's an unknown and involves speculation into the personality of a fictional person. Do YOu have any concrete information to say why he was neccessarily inferior and thus was forced to be the apprentice, as opposed to the idea that Dooku apprenticed himself to Sidious in order to have goals achieved and to learn the Sith arts? Until there is something solid laid down, there's just speculation.

I've never argued Dooku was smarter. Don't confuse me with somebody else.

If Vader's physical strength was the sole factor in this battle, and Dooku was so weak he couldn't possibly stand up to him (Despite having visibly more powerful Force powers, a better lightsaber style, and being able to withstand the flurries of both Obi-Wan and Anakin with relative ease... oh, and Luke Skywalker, who batted him down like a ***** in ROTJ.) then I might admit the possibility for loss. But the odds are -horribly- against Vader. He's slower, he's less powerful with the Force (Having lost much of his Force potential and power at Mustafar, and being a relative lightweight in Force powers overall) he's never showed ability to use or deflect Sith lightning outside of his lightsaber (assuming he can do that, I believe he can) and hoenstly Vader in the OT hasn't showed the ability to simply cut down hi opponents like Dooku does.

What argument do you have that isn't full of semantics and BS to support Vader over Dooku?

Oh, and thanks for silently admitting to being wrong about Mace and Sidious. It's about time.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
It's never mentioned why Dooku fears Sidious. It's an unknown and involves speculation into the personality of a fictional person. Do YOu have any concrete information to say why he was neccessarily inferior and thus was forced to be the apprentice, as opposed to the idea that Dooku apprenticed himself to Sidious in order to have goals achieved and to learn the Sith arts? Until there is something solid laid down, there's just speculation.

I've never argued Dooku was smarter. Don't confuse me with somebody else.

If Vader's physical strength was the sole factor in this battle, and Dooku was so weak he couldn't possibly stand up to him (Despite having visibly more powerful Force powers, a better lightsaber style, and being able to withstand the flurries of both Obi-Wan and Anakin with relative ease... oh, and Luke Skywalker, who batted him down like a ***** in ROTJ.) then I might admit the possibility for loss. But the odds are -horribly- against Vader. He's slower, he's less powerful with the Force (Having lost much of his Force potential and power at Mustafar, and being a relative lightweight in Force powers overall) he's never showed ability to use or deflect Sith lightning outside of his lightsaber (assuming he can do that, I believe he can) and hoenstly Vader in the OT hasn't showed the ability to simply cut down hi opponents like Dooku does.

What argument do you have that isn't full of semantics and BS to support Vader over Dooku?

Oh, and thanks for silently admitting to being wrong about Mace and Sidious. It's about time.

Lol. You just showed how biased you are. This quote especially.

"How he handled the flurries of Obi-Wan and Anakin with relative ease..."

You're right. Dooku's stronger than Obi-Wan, Anakin, or even a mechanical Darth Vader, who is capable of picking up full grown men with a single hand and breaking their necks. You're right! You beat me! He is stronger than Vader. Faster, smarter, more agile...

Hell! He's just better.

So, congratulations Janus! You managed to act the part of the fool on that one. Oh, don't forget that Dooku is stronger than General Grievous - we can't leave that tin-can out of it either.

Dooku could take on anyone. So yes. I agree with you.

Please dont tell me you guys are gonna argue this again...

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
So please don't act like I'm saying blade-to-blade combat is where we warrant off the usage of eyes, intellect, feet, and arms. It's rather sad of you to state that I am implying it. You needn't use your arms or your legs in anything to just punch and kick people. And that is precisely what I am saying.

Consider Dooku, who can disarm by efficiently manuevering his wrist against an opponent, and rip that person's blade out of his or her hands, without the need to punch or kick anyone. That is what I am saying.

Dooku's way of combat. Blade-to-blade. That is what I am saying. There is nothing to indicate that in sheer blade-to-blade capacity that Mace is superior. Is he? It's possible.

But that's all I'm saying.

I'm saying what does it matter?

Would the fact that Sidious can make the loudest fart in the SWU make you feel better as a human being?

Seriously, Dooku uses Form 2, he's made for lightsaber on lightsaber battle, Mace uses Form 7, he's made for the unpredictable, such as kicking the lightsaber out of their hand. It's not like one is necessarily inferior to the other. You're debating something that's completely IRRELEVANT. It doesn't matter a damn either way if one's a better "duelist" (again, your definition) than the other.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
It's never mentioned why Dooku fears Sidious. It's an unknown and involves speculation into the personality of a fictional person. Do YOu have any concrete information to say why he was neccessarily inferior and thus was forced to be the apprentice, as opposed to the idea that Dooku apprenticed himself to Sidious in order to have goals achieved and to learn the Sith arts? Until there is something solid laid down, there's just speculation.

But he did fear him. Did Sidious fear Dooku? No...

Count Dooku, a political idealist and highly intelligent man, feared - by your words - his inferior. Repeat that to yourself. Count Dooku feared someone who was inferior to him. Doesn't that...I dunno...NOT make sense? But whatever. Dooku pwns all. We'll just neglect the tidbit of information that Dooku feared Sidious.

He's a man who isn't afraid to take on Yoda himself...but he fears this hooded -WEAK- man posturing as the Dark Lord of the Sith. But that's okay. Think what you will. We all have rights to our opinions. Thanks for letting me keep mine.

Originally posted by Veneficus
Please dont tell me you guys are gonna argue this again...

We won't. I'm frankly tired of how ridiculous they get when I defend Sidious and bring up the point that Dooku feared him. So, by Janus's arguments, Dooku feared his own inferior. Kind of funny when you think about it. But to them, I'm a nobody who can't make an argument.

But considering how neither of them can explain that Dooku - who is not afraid to tackle Yoda himself - fears Sidious. And remember! Sidious is Dooku's "inferior".

But that's okay. We can agree to disagree. Doesn't make sense what they say, to me, but oh well. I can live with it.

It is possible that Dooku feared Sidious not helping him remove the corruption in the Senate more than he feared Sidious himself? I think Dooku knew he wouldn't be able to reform the Republic in a less corrupt way without Sidious.

I'm not saying that Sidious is Dooku's "inferior." But you acting like he can not be a better duelist is a lie. Like Janus saying, simply his fear of him is no guage of his abilities.



This can go both ways.

"We won't. I'm frankly tired about how ridiculous you get when I explain Mace defeated Sidious. You simply argue semantics to a point that has no relevance."

If saying Mace isn't a better "duelist" than Sidious makes you feel better, go ahead and feel better -- doesn't make it true.

Nice play of words, DS, but you are still as full of shit as you were beforehand. Your sole chance in this debate lies in you twisting and abusing words.

Where's your argument for Vader? Elaborated, in bullet point format?

Or can you manage that? DS, you are all about sarcasm and wordplay, but you provide no substance. None.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
It is possible that Dooku feared Sidious not helping him remove the corruption in the Senate more than he feared Sidious himself? I think Dooku knew he wouldn't be able to reform the Republic in a less corrupt way without Sidious.

Well, to be frankly honest - I would imagine Dooku no longer operated under the facade of nobility. He also knew Sidious wasn't going to stop mid-step in his plans, considering he had planned on executing them for decades. We know - as Dark Rendezvous has shown - and from his attitude in Attack of The Clones - that Dooku did indeed fear Sidious. We do not know why, but Illustrious and Sorgo and Janus made a big deal of how rational and intelligent Dooku is. Now that goes without saying.

Dooku was a cunning and intelligent man. He was not afraid to tackle Yoda himself when it came down to it. But for some reason, he feared Sidious - who by Janus and Illustrious's arguments - would lose against his apprentice in a duel. Some have went out of their way to establish Sidious as inferior to Dooku.

Yet, Dooku, being cunning and intelligent, as previously mentioned - feared Sidious. And thusly had a REASON to fear Sidious, even though we do not know what it was. It is a likely indication that Sidious had something over Dooku. Perhaps it was greater power. Or perhaps it was Sidious playing on Dooku to make him fear him.

We do not know. So, I would really consider hard before saying Dooku is superior to Sidious.

- And Janus. I need you not to declare what chances I have in this debate. You haven't done anything to change my opinion - nor have you established Mace as superior when it comes down to swordsmanship than Sidious. You have offered "nothing", whereas I simply gave proof that Mace didn't outmaneuver Sidious. And my point therein is that while Mace is the superior fighter and warrior, he indicates nothing that he could've beaten Sidious without resorting to his kick. Basically, he could not disarm Sidious the way Dooku did to Obi-Wan or Anakin in Attack of the Clones. He could not - and did not - express any superior abilities with a blade. You - nor Illustrious - have offered any proof that he is. So my theory remains quite possible and quite beyond your ability to prove otherwise.

- Also, you seem rather unwilling to accept the possibility that there was a reason Dooku feared Sidious - and that the reason may be that Dooku simply feared Sidious's attunement to the Dark Side. I doubt Dooku is connected to the Force - let alone the Dark Side of it - as Sidious is. But of course, you've done daring things before. Prove me wrong there.

Until then, we can agree to disagree. Because like I said. You and Illustrious have gained no ground, nor have you proved me wrong in any of the major points. You simply relied on "sarcasm" - and in Illustrious's case: "twisting of words".

So. Until you offer me proof that Mace could own Sidious with just blade to blade skill - or why Dooku feared his master like he did - simply back down and agree to disagree.

Semantics, DS. You just argued in a circle. Both Illustrious and myself have pointed out the error of your reasoning and why you're chasing after stars in the case of Mace and Sidious. As for Dooku and Vader, you have more or less refused to make an argument, which is the entire point of this thread.

So really, your points on Mace is contradictory to the essence of fighting to the death (as opposed to arranged rules-bound duelling or to say, fencing) , period. In particular, instead of conceding that Sidious was beaten, you are arguing that Mace won differently and that he couldn't have won without the kick. This is ridiculous, and is fueled by your pro-Sidious stance, which saturates every post you make on this board, even when you're "humbly" saying Sidious can be beaten.

Also, in regards to Dooku and Sidious (Who oddly enough always make their way into any thread with you posting in it) nothing is conclusive and you're trying to twist it so that Sidious looks clearly better than Dooku and thus needs a backrub and handjob from everyone on the board without actually proving anything regarding skill.

This thread is about Vader and Dooku. Maybe you should try and argue that point or shut the hell up, as you so eloquently put it.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Semantics, DS. You just argued in a circle. Both Illustrious and myself have pointed out the error of your reasoning and why you're chasing after stars in the case of Mace and Sidious. As for Dooku and Vader, you have more or less refused to make an argument, which is the entire point of this thread.

So really, your points on Mace is contradictory to the essence of fighting to the death (as opposed to arranged rules-bound duelling or to say, fencing) , period. In particular, instead of conceding that Sidious was beaten, you are arguing that Mace won differently and that he couldn't have won without the kick. This is ridiculous, and is fueled by your pro-Sidious stance, which saturates every post you make on this board, even when you're "humbly" saying Sidious can be beaten.

Also, in regards to Dooku and Sidious (Who oddly enough always make their way into any thread with you posting in it) nothing is conclusive and you're trying to twist it so that Sidious looks clearly better than Dooku and thus needs a backrub and handjob from everyone on the board without actually proving anything regarding skill.

This thread is about Vader and Dooku. Maybe you should try and argue that point or shut the hell up, as you so eloquently put it.

Kk. Dooku and Vader saber lock - Vader backhands Dooku and stuns him. Vader then punches him and breaks his neck. But Dooku might use his godly strength and endurance that he has acquired in his old age and rip the half-machine man apart.

And please, Janus. You have a bias as well. Dooku stance. It's written all over you. And lol, "humbly"? I tell people when Sidious is owned. I also say when he owns others. Now, you, on the otherhand liked to have argued Yoda couldn't have beaten Dooku and that Dooku wasn't tiring where as Yoda was...which is more pathetic than the Sidious and Dooku debate.

So. By your own insinuations that Dooku is flat-out better than Vader, Sidious, and even Yoda - I will let this argument go, consent defeat, and happily award you a victory. No sarcasm, I'm simply tired of arguing with you.

No, we have offered no proof for your narrow, conceited, and thoroughly illogical view of "dueling" juxtaposed to "fighting." I can make a topic impossibly small and say that you have offered no proof either. I can say that Dooku "fearing" Sidious has no implication on Sidious' outright abilities, as it was never demonstrated (oh wow, sound familiar?).

Mace plain old beat Sidious -- he put the Chancellor on his ass and would have killed him. Regardless of how he did it, it doesn't matter. The process of him kicking him to disarm him no longer has any implication. The bottum line is still that Mace won that fight the way he did... period. There is no evidence to the contrary that Sidious was the superior "duelist" even as you say. It's an irrelevant point based on semantics because you can't accept the facts.

They were fighting, they weren't "fencing." You could just as easily assert that Mace isn't better then Sidious at playing checkers, or Sidious was superior to Mace in basketweaving, it's that irrelevant.

Hm. I was a bit late in realizing that this was supposed to be in the Vader versus Dooku thread, but since DS spews the same crap in all threads, it was a slight mistake on my part.

DS, I'm not bias for Dooku. Get that through your head. And you can't refute anything to save your soul, so you just use some witty sarcasm and rip on me and than overexaggerate anything I say or flat out twist it. So please, take your own advice and either learn to debate or back down and agree to disagree... or shut the hell up. Choice is yours, really. You came around spewing off nonsense and semantics, because you don't have an ice cube's chance in hell of proving that Sidious can beat Dooku soundly, Yoda soundly, or even Vader can defeat Dooku. You're all sarcasm and semantics and bias, and then you accuse others of your faults. In short, you're a coward without a leg to stand on.

Originally posted by Illustrious
No, we have offered no proof for your narrow, conceited, and thoroughly illogical view of "dueling" juxtaposed to "fighting." I can make a topic impossibly small and say that you have offered no proof either. I can say that Dooku "fearing" Sidious has no implication on Sidious' outright abilities, as it was never demonstrated (oh wow, sound familiar?).

Mace plain old beat Sidious -- he put the Chancellor on his ass and would have killed him. Regardless of how he did it, it doesn't matter. The process of him kicking him to disarm him no longer has any implication. The bottum line is still that Mace won that fight the way he did... period. There is no evidence to the contrary that Sidious was the superior "duelist" even as you say. It's an irrelevant point based on semantics because you can't accept the facts.

They were fighting, they weren't "fencing." You could just as easily assert that Mace isn't better then Sidious at playing checkers, or Sidious was superior to Mace in basketweaving, it's that irrelevant.

1. Conceited? YOU of all people accuse ME of being conceited? You're the very epitome of the word, Illustrious. As well as HIPOCRISY. You might ought to consult Webster on both.

2. Mace did beat Sidious. Please show me where I said otherwise.

3. No. Actually, Sidious's abilities at checkers and basketweaving are one hundred percent irrelevant whereas I was simply offering that Mace did nothing to show he was superior in blade-to-blade skill. That is speculation. Speculation is nothing you - who reside in a Versus forum - need to dismiss. It's the very foundation of these forums.

4. Like I said. You're right. You can boast, brag, insult, and do whatever you like. I'm simply tired of arguing with you and Janus. So, please, have at it and continue the argument.

Continue the agrument? Uh, you're the one prodding it along. If you are "tired of arguing", which sounds like you're just -so- put out by arguing to me and Illustrious, who must be unbearably difficult to reason with, oh POOR DARTH SOMEBODY...

Please, give up the drama. You didn't refute a single thing any of us has said. You just attack the person, over and over again. You are the epitome of illogical on this forum.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Hm. I was a bit late in realizing that this was supposed to be in the Vader versus Dooku thread, but since DS spews the same crap in all threads, it was a slight mistake on my part.

DS, I'm not bias for Dooku. Get that through your head. And you can't refute anything to save your soul, so you just use some witty sarcasm and rip on me and than overexaggerate anything I say or flat out twist it. So please, take your own advice and either learn to debate or back down and agree to disagree... or shut the hell up. Choice is yours, really. You came around spewing off nonsense and semantics, because you don't have an ice cube's chance in hell of proving that Sidious can beat Dooku soundly, Yoda soundly, or even Vader can defeat Dooku. You're all sarcasm and semantics and bias, and then you accuse others of your faults. In short, you're a coward without a leg to stand on.

Of course. One thing, though. I never said Sidious could beat Yoda or that he would soundly beat Dooku. I'd like for you to tell me when I said that. If not, then perhaps you ought to be careful how you word things. It seems to me that you're used to your opinion being law. Hence the "you have bias for Sidious" and the "I'm not bias for Dooku.". No, Janus. I am biased for Sidious. But you are for Dooku. If you don't see it, well, that's your own fault.

Please remember. You're making the responses. I'm just telling you what I disagree with. But you're entitled to your opinion. You did win this argument afterall.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Continue the agrument? Uh, you're the one prodding it along. If you are "tired of arguing", which sounds like you're just -so- put out by arguing to me and Illustrious, who must be unbearably difficult to reason with, oh POOR DARTH SOMEBODY...

Please, give up the drama. You didn't refute a single thing any of us has said. You just attack the person, over and over again. You are the epitome of illogical on this forum.

You're right. So, I'll stop after this.

1. He's arrogant. So are you.
2. I'm biased. You're biased. He's biased.
3. You both attack me more than I ever have attacked you.

So. Armed with that, congratulations on your victory, Illustrious and Janus. Earned through-and-through. I hope you both have a lovely evening.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Of course. One thing, though. I never said Sidious could beat Yoda or that he would soundly beat Dooku. I'd like for you to tell me when I said that. If not, then perhaps you ought to be careful how you word things. It seems to me that you're used to your opinion being law. Hence the "you have bias for Sidious" and the "I'm not bias for Dooku.". No, Janus. I am biased for Sidious. But you are for Dooku. If you don't see it, well, that's your own fault.

Please remember. You're making the responses. I'm just telling you what I disagree with. But you're entitled to your opinion. You did win this argument afterall.

Your admiting your biased? Why is this thread still alive?

I've always admitted that I have a preference to Sidious over all other Star Wars characters. But I try not to let that preference cloud me from the truth, Makashi. Others are under the dellusion that their bias is justified and that they can deny it. I accept that I admire Sidious above any other Star Wars characters.

But will that stop me from telling the truth? Or do I take it to the perverse level that Emperor Revan does?

No.

Edit: And erm...I dunno. I didn't make the thread. But it's solved. Sidious did win in Episode III. But would he have won in any other environment? Not likely. Not likely at all.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
1. Conceited? YOU of all people accuse ME of being conceited? You're the very epitome of the word, Illustrious. As well as HIPOCRISY. You might ought to consult Webster on both.

Oh boohoo, I can't hold a candle to the big boys in a debate, so I'm going to push their buttons and then go hide behind the teacher's dress. I know how the gig goes down, don't play at it.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
2. Mace did beat Sidious. Please show me where I said otherwise.

You argued in several threads, for several pages, that Mace is not the better "duelist" as compared to Sidious, when all you do is peddle your narrow-minded, conceited viewpoint on what a "duelist" is. This isn't fencing. If you want to use your purist view on "dueling" that flip Palpatine did to get out of the way was illegal.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
3. No. Actually, Sidious's abilities at checkers and basketweaving are one hundred percent irrelevant whereas I was simply offering that Mace did nothing to show he was superior in blade-to-blade skill. That is speculation. Speculation is nothing you - who reside in a Versus forum - need to dismiss. It's the very foundation of these forums.

And Sidious' blade to blade skill is also 100% irrelevant if he simply gets the blade kicked out of his hand. This shows poor awareness and poor prowess in battle. It's a double whammy then. Sure, I'll stroke your ego and say Sidious is the best at sewing, basketweaving, and webpage designing in the entire SWU.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
4. Like I said. You're right. You can boast, brag, insult, and do whatever you like. I'm simply tired of arguing with you and Janus. So, please, have at it and continue the argument.

Notice what I said in the first point. You're the one who plays the victim, can't hold a debate, can't hang with the big boys, and decide to go push some buttons before running behind the teacher's dress. Good job at being a dumbass, seriously.

Illustrious, you're entitled to your opinion and I respect you for sharing it.

Edit: But I would like to offer the following. Never did I say that Mace did not defeat Sidious. If you would like, I can hunt down the quotes and show you you're wrong. Arguing that he is not necessarily the superior duelist isn't saying that he won in that particular scenario.

Oddly like Yoda and Sidious, don't you think?

Yeah, I am entitled to my opinion, and I'm also entitled to proving your opinion wrong, period.

Yes, you do. I one-hundred-percent agree.

Calm down guys. Peace and Health. (Darth L. Dipsit). Sidious didn't defeat Yoda they were a stalemate. . .