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If it were a lightsaber fight I give it to tulak but if force powers, I give otherwise.

Tulak Hord is quoted by Kreia as being "The most powerful lightsabre duelist of the Sith".

IF, we take this literally then Yoda and Sidious "Would be as children playing with toys."

She was telling that to the Exile, who killed countless enemies and Sith Lords, and (if darkside) Jedi Masters.

I think Tulak would win.

Yeah Tulak should easily win, but what if it was a contest of force powers. 2 powerful force masters against an ultimately powersul sith lightsaber duelist.

We can presume that Hord knew some Sith magic, but apart from that we don't know anything about his force powers.

Didn't Tulak possess some skill in Sith Alchemy?

I know he studied it so he probably had some skill.

Where does it say he studied it, sources please.

We really need someone to make a novel about Hord.

I just found out through word of mouth, but I also think I read it on the web somewere *Goes to look it up.*

And yeah, someone should request that

Ancient Sith (4000 BBY - 1000 BBY) vs PT Jedi
... Naga Sadow, Tulak Hord, Exar Kun, and Freedon Nadd, but they would also ...
They used Sith Magics as a form of the force. They studied alchemy and the ...
www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-359798 - 9k - Cached - Similar pages
www.killermovies.com ]

He would make a good character, but we only have Kreia's speech for his background.

There it is

Well...I've written this just too often:

The statement about Tulak Hord being the best lightsaber duellist the Sith had is a statement from KotoR times being almost 4,000 years before the OT.

And the weak point in this statement is that it just applies if you compare Tulak Hord to pre KotoR time people and it's only a statement about Sith. So basically there is no way this statement can be applied on Yoda and Sidious since they both are far past KotoR times and Yoda is a Jedi.

We simply don't know how the much the swordfighting changed during the years. If we see that Juyo (form VII) is around in KotoR times but Mace Windu in the PT is the first who mastered it (with Vaapad) you can assume that Mace might be better than Tulak Hord. And now you have Yoda and Dooku who are on par or better than Mace.

Viewing it this way, Yoda alone might be too much for Tulak in a lightsaber fight, throwing in Sidious will most likely overpower Tulak.

It kinda makes sense but vaapad was based off of juyo, then he mastered it. But tulak could take them in a lightsaber duel, I think atleast. But if it were force powers, it might be different, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. That's why I make these threads, to see what others think.

yoda and sids own because they were the best swordsman of there time

But the ancient sith and jedi were more powerful

Originally posted by Darth Nhilus
But the ancient sith and jedi were more powerful

Oh...really ? Do you have any proof for this ?

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...I've written this just too often:

The statement about Tulak Hord being the best lightsaber duellist the Sith had is a statement from KotoR times being almost 4,000 years before the OT.

And the weak point in this statement is that it just applies if you compare Tulak Hord to pre KotoR time people and it's only a statement about Sith. So basically there is no way this statement can be applied on Yoda and Sidious since they both are far past KotoR times and Yoda is a Jedi.

We simply don't know how the much the swordfighting changed during the years. If we see that Juyo (form VII) is around in KotoR times but Mace Windu in the PT is the first who mastered it (with Vaapad) you can assume that Mace might be better than Tulak Hord. And now you have Yoda and Dooku who are on par or better than Mace.

Viewing it this way, Yoda alone might be too much for Tulak in a lightsaber fight, throwing in Sidious will most likely overpower Tulak.

In this same whim, would you view Mace as being superior to Revan? Whom Kreia's statement also applies?

Kreia said so hmph, j/k lol but really she did say so

Originally posted by Illustrious
In this same whim, would you view Mace as being superior to Revan? Whom Kreia's statement also applies?

I don't judge Revans swordfighting ability because I don't know anything about it. Since I already argued that Yoda might take Revan in a lightsaber duel and I have argued that Dooku / Mace might be able to take Malak I - at least - don't think that Revan is far superior to Yoda, Dooku or Mace when it comes to lightsaber duels.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
I don't judge Revans swordfighting ability because I don't know anything about it. Since I already argued that Yoda might take Revan in a lightsaber duel and I have argued that Dooku / Mace might be able to take Malak I - at least - don't think that Revan is far superior to Yoda, Dooku or Mace when it comes to lightsaber duels.

Well, the issue is that Kreia's statement to the effect of the Ancient Sith make it seem like the KotOR era individuals are children playing with toys would apply to Revan. So by this, we can assume, provided Kreia is a reputable source, that Tulak is superior to Revan in terms of swordfighting/lightsaber wielding. Now, if you want to assume Mace has more developed swordsmanship than Tulak, then logic dictates he would also be superior to Revan.

However, the primarily fallacy of this argument is that as lightsaber techniques get developed, that they are necessarily superior. You have to assume, that with the movement towards blasters and away from lightsabers (just as how Makashi is becoming less prolific) that just as much is lost as is gained.

It would effectively be trying to compare an army veteran to an Ancient Spartan in swordsmanship, the emphasis is not on waving a sharp, pointy gladius anymore.

Kreia, one of the biggest liars said he is the best. I doubt he really is. Yoda and Sidious win.

Shje is a big liar but tulak hord was really a good lightsaber duelist.

You have know proof of that. In fact, she may have just made-up what she said about him on Korriban.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Well, the issue is that Kreia's statement to the effect of the Ancient Sith make it seem like the KotOR era individuals are children playing with toys would apply to Revan. So by this, we can assume, provided Kreia is a reputable source, that Tulak is superior to Revan in terms of swordfighting/lightsaber wielding. Now, if you want to assume Mace has more developed swordsmanship than Tulak, then logic dictates he would also be superior to Revan.

Yeah. In swordsmanship which - as far as we know - doesn't determine the outcome of a fight. You can say that Dooku using the ultimate refinement in lightsaber to lightsaber combat is superior to Yoda in swordmanship but he still can't beat Yoda. Other examples would be:

Luke vs Vader (ROTJ)
Sidious vs Yoda (ROTS)



As you realized I never said that more developed techniques would be necessarily superior. But:

a)
It's more likely that the very same technique practiced over another 4 millenia would be either not developed or developed in a way that would make it better.

b)
Juyo is said to be the harderst form to master now Vaapad is even harder and now I'm asking myself why. And least what Mace does with his fighting style is quite impressive. So is Dooku.

c)
Can you imagine a lightsaber duellist that would make Yoda look like a child ? Erm...



No...it won't. See...it would be like comparing people that lived under a certain code and used certain weapons with people that use the same code and the same weapons 4,000 years later - something that never happened in the history of mankind.

We simply don't know how lightsaber combat developed at least we can't tell how much better Tulak Hord would be compared to Yoda but we can see that "making Yoda look like a child" is pretty much not possible.
Now we know that Yoda can avoid hits from three Jedi Master attacking him simultaneously - can he avoid Tulak Hord ? Probably yes. Can Hord defend against Sidious and Yoda at once - I doubt it.

No, swordsmanship doesn't determine the outcome of a fight, but neither do force powers, or terrain. They do, however, make it more likely for said individual to win. As you see Dooku has superior swordsmanship than Obi-Wan, hence he is able to consistently beat him. Does that mean if they fight for a million times, that Obi-Wan can't squeek out a victory? No. But the odds are against him.

Better swordsmanship, as a rule, increases your chance of winning a confrontation involving... what else? lightsabers.



That's not necessarily true. No one individual survived for those 4 millenia, so the technique is constantly being relearned by new individuals.

Makashi is one of the oldest techniques, and it is still the best technique in lightsaber combat. This indicates that as new develops are made, they aren't necessarily more powerful, but more practical.



True, but difficulty in mastering it doesn't necessarily mean the individual that has mastered it is superior. Is it likely that Vaapad/Juyo is superior to the form Tulak used, sure, but does that mean, inherently, that Mace is better than Tulak? No.

If I am marginally good with a gun, and I go up against someone who is ridiculously good with a Longbow, chance are, I still would die even though my weaponry is superior.



Sure, the little green guy does it himself. Damn his small stature!



Sure it has, just not in the written era. People have used stone age or bronze age weapons for 4 millenia before, and in all likelihood, very little progression has been made. You said it yourself, they are using the same kind of weapon, chances are the refinement has not been so radical as to require something completely different.



Unless Yoda is leagues ahead of Revan, making Revan look like a child is pretty difficult too. But Kreia's statement, at the time of its issue, also applied to Revan.



The issue is that we don't know for sure. You have martial arts experience, you should know that against two individuals with weapons is NOT the same as taking 1 individual with a weapon and multiplying it by 2. The way they mesh together would not be flawless. Tulak is a Dark Lord of the Sith in a time when powerful duelists were relatively common, or as can be assumed (considering he has a tomb).

I'm not saying he would be able to beat Sidious and Yoda; I'm just saying ruling that out as a possibility seems premature.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Oh...really ? Do you have any proof for this ? absence of proof is not proof of absence

Originally posted by atlant80
absence of proof is not proof of absence

that doesn't excuse randomly pulling things out of the air.

I'd like to add one thing; Kreia's words cannot be taken just as they are. She tends to exaggerate for the sake of making a valid point. Tulak Hord wouldn't really make Revan, or Malak, or anyone else, look like a child, atleast not entirely. The wording is simply to express her regared and respect for the skill of the Ancients. Call her the master of Overstatement. . .