Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

General Grievous during ROTS vs. Darth Vader during ROTJ. Does the 4 lightsabers give Grievous the edge or does Vader have it with the force?

I said Vader, but it'd sure be close.

Vader: Stun Droid. Force Lightning. Force Lightning.

Can Vader do Force Lighting?

True, he can't (well he can, but that's like stabbing yourself). he can do Force Push however.

Or simply crush the General's gutsac. And he actually is completely incapable of lightning, I'm sorry to say. The beginning process alone would fry his every circuit.

Although, Jabar, now that you've brought it up. . . Vader has stabbed himself in a Star Wars tales story.

Greivous gets crushed literally.

why didnt obi do that (crush gutsac)

Jedi can't use the force offensive purposes.

mace did it in CW

CW is barely if not at all canon and Mace useses Vaapad which requires him to tap into the Darkside.

got you but this is GG obi should know some crush and should have used it

I doubt he knows a high enough level of Dark prowess for such utilization. Now, basic things, yes, but crushing somebody's damn organs takes a lot more ethan power. It takes a dark character, and in this case, a lack of humanity. Obi-Wan wouldn't have that kind of darkness in him.

True. But Vader doesn't move as fast as Grievous which gives him a huge edge here.

We don't know that. Vader could have enhanced reflexes just as Grievous does. Vader could just Force-Push/Rape Grievous all over the Death Star.

But his reflexes are the same. Only his arms (elbow down) and legs (Knee down) are robotic.

And we see that his robotic arm is enough to fend off, but not kill, Cin Drallig, who is a legendary lightsaber user.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus

Although, Jabar, now that you've brought it up. . . Vader has stabbed himself in a Star Wars tales story.
I know, to kill the Maul clone. I thought that was the single stupidest thing Vader has ever done. Except for his little "high ground" fiasco.

ESB, Grievous was hell-fast, but did that help him against Obi? The most passive Force-user in the movies? Vader'd just crush his gutsac.

Originally posted by Lord Simus
Greivous gets crushed literally.
yeah vader can use the force to crush his mettal skeleton

Vader also had Force Scream.

grievous has a chance only in a sword on sword combat

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
ESB, Grievous was hell-fast, but did that help him against Obi? The most passive Force-user in the movies? Vader'd just crush his gutsac.
For the record I'm going for Vader on this:
Obi-Wan uses a defense form and he waits for Grievous to make a mistake
Vader uses a more attacking form so he can't wait for Grievous to make a mistake as easily as Obi-Wan did

How stupid do you think Vader is? He would never let it come to that.

Originally posted by Fishy
How stupid do you think Vader is? He would never let it come to that.

Stupid enough to get all his limbs chopped off. . .

and burned to a crisp while not knowing obiwan would own him if he jumped

Originally posted by Fishy
How stupid do you think Vader is? He would never let it come to that.

Stupid enough not to sense that Leia was his daughter. . .

How could he have? He didn't even know he had a child.

And when he got his limbs cut off he was young and foolish, Vader from the OT is a lot smarter and would play it smarter he would start choking him right away, destroy his insides whatever he wouldn't wait for GG to fight him. Besides he knows what GG can do, he won't be stupid enough to risk his life.

People these days. . .

- Did you see him fight Luke? He simply stood there and parried his continuous blows with one arm. And then, when he got bored or saw an opening presumably, he caught Luke's down-strike, and threw him to the ground. Now, I know "Grievous pwns Luke, n00b". However, that goes to show that he's no longer the brash Knight he used to be. He's learned patience, waiting for aan opening, and then he goes all out, as he did in the latter parts of the duel.

- He got all his limbs chopped off. Look who he was fighting. Obi-Wan Kenobi, the same Jedi Master who chopped Maul into freakin' two pieces. Who stood up to Count Dooku. Who survived Assaj Ventress thrice. Who, surprise, surprise, literally torched Grievous. And oh, it helps that they'd been together for thirteen years, and had beccome the most famed warriors in the galaxy side-by-side. ROTS was Anakin when he was yet obsessed with his seeming invincibility. How could he lose to Obi-Wan? He'd just laid waste to the entire Jedi Temple, destroyed the Order. Put yourself in his shoes.

- How couldn't he sense Leia was his daughter? Well, why the hell would he even consider that? He was told that Padme had been killed by his hand, along with the unborn child. At that point, he was childless in his mind. But remember, during his final duel in ROTJ, he went through Luke's thoughts, and found out that there indeed was a sister. But, Makashi, what the hell does this have to do with the duel?

By Jabiim, Anakin Skywalker can crush a man's throat. By ROTS, he can slowly, painfully squeeze the life out of his own life. By ESB, he can rip appliances off of durasteel walls. Vader is extremely underrated here, and in this entire thread. He is a powerful Sith Lord, and although weakened, he is still far above almost anyone in his time. I know "He was pwned by a farmboy, n00b". But what most of you can't seem to realize is how powerful that farmboy had become. After realizing his power, Luke had come to embrace it in a way that made him far more powerful than that young boy who left Tatooine, that confused young man that had left Bespin, minus a hand. He was, by ROTJ, a force to be reckoned with, as was his father, and it's about time somebody here accepted that.

Nonetheless Vader/Anakin is ruled by his emotions. All someone has to do is piss him off and he'll go crazy.

Did you not just read my post? Jeez. . . people. OT Vader is a master of his anger, his frustration. He is a controlled Sith Lord, cunning anfd deadly. And seeing as how Grievous aint his son, I don't there's gonna be anything sentimental involved.

Anfd? Fine. But My second point is that Sith Lords get really high on themselves and cocky. There is always a chance Vader gets cocky and screws up. Vader is not incapable of becoming arrogant.

Can you name one time in the OT where Vader lost control? Was shown to be ruled by his negatuve emotions?

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Can you name one time in the OT where Vader lost control? Was shown to be ruled by his negatuve emotions?

In ANH, Vader is constantly angry. He kills a rebel officer, instead of keeping him alive for further interrogation.

In ESB, Vader is pissed when Luke sabers his shoulder, and quickly takes Luke's hand off.

In ANH, Vader was so focused on Luke Skywalker and single mindedly destroying him, he failed to sense Han Solo cruising above him.

Vader is calmer then he used to be, but not under control. And while I respect your opinion, Faunus, Vader is a very weak Sith lord in the grand scheme of things. I haven't seen a single saber thrust in any of the movies that was on par with Obi-Wan's amazing style, and his lack of mobility means that Grievious can use the environment to his advantage and destroy him. Point being, Grievious has more in his favor then Vader does.

Come on Janus. Don't you think that's going against the Skywalkers a tad bit too much? Not to sound rude, of course.

Your first and third example, okay. But that's focus, not out of control obsession. And Han's not a shabby pilot himself. Although yes, Vader erred there. . .

Second, I don't know. How would that play against him in a fight? he's not dim enough to succumb to power moves against Grievous himself. Now, there aren't a lot of people who could stand up to Grievous in a straight duel. Hence why his Force abilities are so important. He wouldn't be able to outfight Grievous, but he can screw with his electronic components through Force techniques. Or simply crush the General's gutsac. . .

Why would he have such stylish attacks as Obi-Wan? Look at the times in which the movies were filmed. Vader was before Gillard's choreography.

And yes, Vader isn't all that powerful when compared to such beings as Yoda, and Naga Sadow. But you have to admit, during his time, he was one of the most powerful beings alive, you have to admit. During the movie era, the list of people who out-power him are:

1) Yoda
2) Darth Sidious
3) Mace Windu (?)
4) Dooku (?)

Now, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Drallig, and Grievous may be able to defeat him in a straight duel, but he could hold his own against any of them, and defeat them when it comes down to the Force.

Vader pwns Faunus is totally right

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Come on Janus. Don't you think that's going against the Skywalkers a tad bit too much? Not to sound rude, of course.

Your first and third example, okay. But that's focus, not out of control obsession. And Han's not a shabby pilot himself. Although yes, Vader erred there. . .

Second, I don't know. How would that play against him in a fight? he's not dim enough to succumb to power moves against Grievous himself. Now, there aren't a lot of people who could stand up to Grievous in a straight duel. Hence why his Force abilities are so important. He wouldn't be able to outfight Grievous, but he can screw with his electronic components through Force techniques. Or simply crush the General's gutsac. . .

Why would he have such stylish attacks as Obi-Wan? Look at the times in which the movies were filmed. Vader was before Gillard's choreography.

And yes, Vader isn't all that powerful when compared to such beings as Yoda, and Naga Sadow. But you have to admit, during his time, he was one of the most powerful beings alive, you have to admit. During the movie era, the list of people who out-power him are:

1) Yoda
2) Darth Sidious
3) Mace Windu (?)
4) Dooku (?)

Now, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Drallig, and Grievous may be able to defeat him in a straight duel, but he could hold his own against any of them, and defeat them when it comes down to the Force.


I like how everytime I argue against Luke or Anakin/Vader, or even Sidious, it is always thrown in there that I hate the character and I am always against them. This is presumptuous bullshit started by people who are always on the wrong side of a losing argument. The burden of proof is on the person who's arguing their stance. Faunus, I didn't expect you to make a jab like that. Not upset, but certainly not taking kindly to it. If having an informed and logical opinion is 'Skywalker hating', then the direct opposite should be Skywalker loving. Please, don't make accusations like that again. Aside from my stances on most of their battles, I do like all of the characters from Star Wars. even Anakin, despite his AOTC whininess. But back to my original point- you need to build a better case, or admit you don't have one. Simple.

First off, you asked for instances when Vader let his emotions guide him. I gave you three off the top of my head. I bet if I sat down and watched the movies and thought about it, I could create an entire thread based just on his emotionally driven decisions in ANH alone. This isn't really to discredit him as a duellist; I don't think it matters that much in this case... but you asked, I provided. Simple.

Secondly, you list his Force abilities. Darth Vader can choke a nonForce using being, deflect blaster bolts with his mechanical hands, hit switches, throw his lightsaber, and can throw objects using his mind. With the exception of deflecting blaster bolts (Since I think this has just as much to do with Vader's Force power as it does his artificial hands) ROTJ Luke can do every single thing there. Is ROTJ Luke neccessarily better than Grievious? No. When it comes down to it, Grievious is going to engage Vader in a close personal melee combat. And arguing his Force powers is useless because you have nothing to indicate that suited Vader can do anything more than the average jedi can. If anything, ROTS Obi-Wan demonstrates equal Force powers as pre-suit Anakin, more mental mastery, and has been shown to manipulate much larger objects than OT Vader. ROTS Obi-Wan is much better than Vader by far, and he did soundly beat Grievious. BUT watch how he did it. He relied on his agility... he had to duck and weave past a few blows to penetrate Grievious' defenses. Vader can't move like that, period. Vader hasn't shown the manually dexterity to deflect even two blades coming from different angles. In regards to actual physical power, Vader is inconsistant- he can lift a human officer almost a full foot above the ground, but Luke easily batters him down with a lightsaber.

Please Faunus, don't argue movie choreography limitations, because then you get into "What ifs" and you know you can't agrue those soundly. Vader moved and fought a certain way. From what we've seen of him fight in the suit, he cannot match Grievious for speed. Not at all. If you insist that Vader might have been faster just cause we didn't see it, then you could argue that Grievious could move even faster (which would be beyond sight, considering how fast he could move already) just because we didn't see it.

And don't argue Vader could have tweaked his suit. This is the epitome of speculation, and Nefarus tried it before; I shot him down then. Vader is a limited being. If GL wanted him faster than life, he could have done it, even then. Trust me, the props used in ESB and ROTJ were durable enough for a heated, quick saber battle. No such thing occured. End point? You can only make an assumption with facts, not what ifs. Vader is much slower than Grievious, and has not shown sufficient Force mastery to nullify Grievious' speed advantage. In short, he dies.

Well, first off, I really, really didn't mean to offend you with the Skywalker crack. Just an apparantly bad show of dry humor. Again. Really sorry.

Secondly, I can't really think of anything to argue all that, so I give in. All I have is my opinion.

Lastly, I never said that Vader can tweak his suit. . . In the ROTS novelization, a poor source, I know, Obi-Wan messes with the circuits in Anakin's prosthetic, causing him to drop his lightsaber. I meant he could do it with Grievous' arms. But screw it. I have little case here.

Again, very sorry to offend you. You're one of the only sensible and reasonable people here, and of course, one of my best friends here. Accept my poor, crying puppy dog look.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Well, first off, I really, really didn't mean to offend you with the Skywalker crack. Just an apparantly bad show of dry humor. Again. Really sorry.

Secondly, I can't really think of anything to argue all that, so I give in. All I have is my opinion.

Lastly, I never said that Vader can tweak his suit. . . In the ROTS novelization, a poor source, I know, Obi-Wan messes with the circuits in Anakin's prosthetic, causing him to drop his lightsaber. I meant he could do it with Grievous' arms. But screw it. I have little case here.

Again, very sorry to offend you. You're one of the only sensible and reasonable people here, and of course, one of my best friends here. Accept my poor, crying puppy dog look.

Relax. I wasn't offended or upset. I should have realized it for humor, but hey, it's hard to do with simple white text, isn't it? But I was making a point- usually, other parties make a crack at me being some hater, as if that undermines my argument. It shouldn't, and I don't hate the Skywalkers. Rather, I hate their fans.

And when I meant about the suit, I think someone else on the previous page addressed it. Nefarus tried that crap with me and it was ridiculous because if Vader could tweak his suit, he would be much faster than Luke, on par with Grievious and his sickness. But also, Vader and Grievious are built totally different.

And lastly, I'm sorry we don't have a better gauge of Vader's abilities. I'm also rather sorry GL went out of his way to pimp the PT characters, and then allowed Eu characters who are pimper then them, because it makes Vader look like a guppy in a shark tank.

*sigh* Too true. Completely throws the greatest, most classic badass evah right down the drain.

But if he remade it, he'd be lynched in his own house. Fan-atics.

The goddamn fanatics. The Jawas should make them our #1 priority. Let's just eat the Ewoks, these guys' fanboyism is a force to be reckoned with on its own. We can't afford distractions.

Word. The New Jawa Crusade is against Fan-atics everywhere!

And if they're ewoks, double the bounty!!

Oooteenie!

Janus you are forgetting one thing in your argument.

Vader knew of GG... Yeah he was overconfident, still was even then but less then in Rots. I think he would realise that he could not win.

And you are right we don't know how powerful he is in the force compared to other Jedi. But we do know that Obi Wan was good, not the best but good. Anakin matched him. Vader since then became stronger yes I know many think he became weaker but everything seems to suggest otherwise. He learned a lot more of the Dark Side and there is just no reason to assume that he couldn't choke a none force user like GG.

Now the Jedi did not try that because its against what they do, but its only reasonable to assume that Anakin would use the Dark Side in his fights. We have seen him throw reasonably big objects around at Luke. Okay he was in complete control of that fight, but he could probably still do things like that when fighting against GG.

Now this fight IMO depends on one thing how big is the distance between the two when the fights start, if GG can move really fast he might start a fight with Vader immediately and take him out. On the other hand if they start at some distance or GG tries his flashy intro again he could die right away. One move of Vader his hand and GG could be in the air going down for the count.

We saw Obi Wan pushing him away with the force yeah he got up again but it clearly means that he could not resist force powers. There is just no reason, no reason at all to assume that GG could resist being choked. He's a droid not a Jedi. He doesn't have the force, he can't resist force powers.

Actually, if Grievious had in mind to activate the magnets on his metallic legs, or use his claws, he could resist force telekinesis. In any case, Vader's force power is much weaker now than it was previous, but easily more controlled. Still, like you said, it all depends on Grievious getting close, which I think he can. Even Kenobi, defiantely better than OT Vader, had a few close calls with the general.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Actually, if Grievious had in mind to activate the magnets on his metallic legs, or use his claws, he could resist force telekinesis. In any case, Vader's force power is much weaker now than it was previous, but easily more controlled. Still, like you said, it all depends on Grievious getting close, which I think he can. Even Kenobi, defiantely better than OT Vader, had a few close calls with the general.

Yeah but Kenobi wasn't using the force to destroy GG... He didn't use offensive force powers, he pushed GG once and it send GG flying.

And it can do that if the enemy is caught off guard. But in LOE, Mace can't easily Force push Grievious off into nothing while they are fighting on the passenger tram because of his magnetic feet.

Well yeah but that is a different thing then choking and the magnets practically glued him to the train, what is he going to be glued on in this fight?

Why bother force pushing when you can force drain, force scream, force choke or "fear" the poor bastard?

Uh, because this isn't a video game. I thought that was obvious.

And Fishy, odds are in Grievious' favor. This fight goes to him.

cant vader just crush the generals guts from 20 feet away?

Not if Grievous can close the distance, which, being the embodiment of death, shouldn't be impossible. . .

it takes 2 seconds to pop the sack

This calculation is coming from where?

how long does it take to pop a balloon? it comes from there

Which is sheer idiocy. . . I can beat up a person with prosthetic limbs, so I can beat up Darth Vader.

point taken the area where they are fighting is also important

Which is what I've wanted to know since this thread started.

Originally posted by Darth Avis
why didnt obi do that (crush gutsac)
Obi probably didnt have time becuase there were 4 lightsabers spinning around him.
I think grievous would win because ROTJ Vader is so slow and Grievous of ROTS is still pretty fast for a cripple

Do you honestly believe Vader can't fight fast, Koolwoo92?