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If emma and sue are facing 10 feet away from each other, what attack will come first in your opinion. Sue's field, or emma's mindwipe/blast.

Discuss and debate...

Both attacks are as fast as the speed of thought, sooooooooo.....

But, do you believe it takes longer to simply target and apply, or to target, construct, and apply?

but wouldn't sue's force have to materialise first

she may think at the speed of though but what of her powers

I'm gonna assume it's a quickdraw battle, correct?

In that case, telepaths need concentration or it doesn't work. When Sue fires a forcefield, it happens fast and once she fires a bolt or whatever you wanna call it, it becomes an independant projectile.

So if the both attack at the same time, while Sue could be affected, it's almost certain Emma will be hit but the blast Sue sent off. If someone distracts a telepath, the bond and/or control is broken. If Sue fires a projectile forcefield and you call her, it won't stop the attack because it's independent.

-AC

No.

so bascially sue may think as fast as emma but her force feild will still have to materialse so emma get there first

Originally posted by HigH ScholaR
but wouldn't sue's force have to materialise first

she may think at the speed of though but what of her powers That is what I'm basing my opinion upon first.

If my mind reaches yours ( step 2), and you are on step 2 as well, and waiting for step three (construction), then...

But if Emma does, it won't matter, because Sue's attacks are as fast.

Unless of course you're a pretentious fool who thinks that Sue is wrong about her own powers and therefore discredit it.

-AC

So wait, we're talking who's assault would be more effective or would hit first?

If she's trying to hold someone in a bubble, yes.

If she's trying to knock someone over by using the bubbles as force, no. Because she just fires them off.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
But if Emma does, it won't matter, because Sue's attacks are as fast.

Unless of course you're a pretentious fool who thinks that Sue is wrong about her own powers and therefore discredit it.

-AC

I know they are equal speed, thats not my point.

Step one is to target.

Step two is to use your mind.

Step three is construction for sue, and sue alone...

I mean, one could say IW would hit first because it's more stable, but someone else could say Emma's would hit first because it's pinpoint accurate and can't be dodged.

But to me, there isn't any reason to say one attack would hit the other before the other.

Why are you operating under the assumption that she has to see Emma and go "Right, there she is. Gonna now form my bubble."

It takes seconds. It's instinct. She doesn't stand there staring, taking time to form it and then use it.

-AC

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I know they are equal speed, thats not my point.

Step one is to target.

Step two is to use your mind.

Step three is construction for sue, and sue alone...
Now I don't even know the question.

Originally posted by long pig
I mean, one could say IW would hit first because it's more stable, but someone else could say Emma's would hit first because it's pinpoint accurate and can't be dodged.

But to me, there isn't any reason to say one attack would hit the other before the other.

Okay, I understand that, but listen for a second.

pretend I have a crossbow.


My bolts loaded.

Your bolt isn't.

I target and fire, you have to target, load, and fire.

Which is more effective?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Why are you operating under the assumption that she has to see Emma and go "Right, there she is. Gonna now form my bubble."

It takes seconds. It's instinct. She doesn't stand there staring, taking time to form it and then use it.

-AC Both are really fast alpha, but that split second counts

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Okay, I understand that, but listen for a second.

pretend I have a crossbow.


My bolts loaded.

Your bolt isn't.

I target and fire, you have to target, load, and fire.

Which is more effective?
Depends on how fast you can load and fire.

Originally posted by long pig
Depends on how fast you can load and fire. Mine is loaded nonetheless.

I'm giving the ben of the doubt and saying both are equal in skill.

i'm saying that it may be instinct but it does take seconds as you said buy also the bubble still has to materialse before it can do anything i don't know how lomg that will take but it will take an amount of time maybe a moment, a second nano second whatever time is constant so emma's is just speed of thought attack whether it's instinct like you said sue's attack is

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Mine is loaded nonetheless.

I'm giving the ben of the doubt and saying both are equal in skill.

How come Sue definitely has an extra 'step', but Emma gets the benefit of the doubt skill wise?

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
How come Sue definitely has an extra 'step', but Emma gets the benefit of the doubt skill wise?

No interference, even grounds.

Thats what I meant, because all of this will happen before I finish this sentence...

Sue's bubble is as fast as the speed of thought, it takes as much time to make a thought as it does to make a bubble.

But I get what you are saying, emma's mind is already loaded ready to fire but Sue has to conjure up her attack and then use it. But the flaw in that is thinking Sue needs more time to conjure a bubble than Emma needs to conjure a thought.

Originally posted by long pig
Sue's bubble is as fast as the speed of thought, it takes as much time to make a thought as it does to make a bubble.

But I get what you are saying, emma's mind is already loaded ready to fire but Sue has to conjure up her attack and then use it. But the flaw in that is thinking Sue needs more time to conjure a bubble than Emma needs to conjure a thought.

They both are thinking, but her attack is her focusing on you, she has no construction.

Anyway, do you agree whoever hits first is the winner?

Sue operates at the same speed as Emma.

Why is speed an issue? Oh yeah. Sue could be wrong, as Creshosk believes.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Sue operates at the same speed as Emma.

Why is speed an issue? Oh yeah. Sue could be wrong, as Creshosk believes.

-AC

No listen, the bubble comes up instantly, no questions asked.

But the thought behind it doesn't, no different than nightcrawlers travel.

Nightcrawler goes away instantly, but he must think of it...

Emma points and fires.

Sue points and fires.

We all know Sue can use her force powers as a projectile. Forming is only neccessary for protection or containment, not attack. She's not throwing a bubble, she's LAUNCHING a force attack.

-AC

Originally posted by long pig
But the flaw in that is thinking Sue needs more time to conjure a bubble than Emma needs to conjure a thought.

Untrue. Remember, Sue needs to conjure a thought to conjure the bubble. Extra step, more time.

She's not conjuring a bubble. She's launching force.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Sue points and fires.

We all know Sue can use her force powers as a projectile. Forming is only neccessary for protection or containment, not attack. She's not throwing a bubble, she's LAUNCHING a force attack.

-AC

It's not a force attack. She still has to form it. Whenever she does a "projectile attack", it's in the form as an invisible blunt object coming from her hands. that object has to be formed. Sometimes it's sharp, sometimes thin, sometimes wide area. But that's all stuff that requires a *decision*, which is an extra thought.

Emma thinks, "Sue" "Mind off" and that's that.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Sue points and fires.

We all know Sue can use her force powers as a projectile. Forming is only neccessary for protection or containment, not attack. She's not throwing a bubble, she's LAUNCHING a force attack.

-AC I see what you are saying now, that it is going to be a force attack on the inside?

Originally posted by demigawd
It's not a force attack. She still has to form it. Whenever she does a "projectile attack", it's in the form as an invisible blunt object coming from her hands. that object has to be formed. Sometimes it's sharp, sometimes thin, sometimes wide area. But that's all stuff that requires a *decision*, which is an extra thought.

Emma thinks, "Sue" "Mind off" and that's that.

No, you're writing it to your advantage.

Sue only forms when she wants to be specific. She doesn't have to, and when she doesn't want to, it's as fast as Emma. Because it's speed of thought.

If she just decides she wants to fire a force attack, bam. It happens. There are no steps unless she decides there to be. Like if Emma wants to lift a cup. She has to decide to lift it because she's specifying how she wants to use her powers, it takes longer. In this fight, she's not going to is she? She's just gonna do it. That's all good with you. But when proven that Sue is the same: "Nah, has to form."

She doesn't.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, you're writing it to your advantage.

Sue only forms when she wants to be specific. She doesn't have to, and when she doesn't want to, it's as fast as Emma. Because it's speed of thought.

If she just decides she wants to fire a force attack, bam. It happens. There are no steps unless she decides there to be. Like if Emma wants to lift a cup. She has to decide to lift it because she's specifying how she wants to use her powers, it takes longer. In this fight, she's not going to is she? She's just gonna do it. That's all good with you. But when proven that Sue is the same: "Nah, has to form."

She doesn't.

-AC


Yes, true that she doesn't need as much time as mentioned, but she has to target where the attack is going, how it will envelop, etc.

Emma could do this with her eyes closed, as could xavier...

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Yes, true that she doesn't need as much time as mentioned, but she has to target where the attack is going, how it will envelop, etc.

Emma could do this with her eyes closed, as could xavier...

No, read my post.

She only has to decide how it envelops if she wants to. If she wants to just use a pure bolt of force, which she would, it would be as fast.

Why is it so hard to understand? She only forms if she wants to.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, you're writing it to your advantage.

Sue only forms when she wants to be specific. She doesn't have to, and when she doesn't want to, it's as fast as Emma. Because it's speed of thought.

If she just decides she wants to fire a force attack, bam. It happens. There are no steps unless she decides there to be. Like if Emma wants to lift a cup. She has to decide to lift it because she's specifying how she wants to use her powers, it takes longer. In this fight, she's not going to is she? She's just gonna do it. That's all good with you. But when proven that Sue is the same: "Nah, has to form."

She doesn't.

-AC

Sue has never fired "pure directed force". When has this EVER happened? Her power is to create invisible, somewhat impenetrable objects, she can't project "force".

Name a time to the contrary.

Originally posted by demigawd
Sue has never fired "pure directed force". When has this EVER happened? Her power is to create invisible, somewhat impenetrable objects, she can't project "force".

Name a time to the contrary.

We are all surely aware that Sue Storm can levitate or propel herself through the air.

How do you think she does that? Go on.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
We are all surely aware that Sue Storm can levitate or propel herself through the air.

How do you think she does that? Go on.

-AC Are you talking about making a platform under her feet of some sort?

She uses force to move it, doesn't she? She projects force at the ground.

She makes the bubble or forcefield, correct? If she just stood on it, wouldn't do much. She moves it because she can manipulate the force. If she can move the force in any way she wants to......she can.....?

If she can instantly protect herself with a forceshield without thinking, shields that she can manipulate and move. FORCE shields.......instant.......powerful.....

*Throws breadcrumbs around*

And as for targeting bs, you stated it's face to face. No targeting neccessary.

-AC

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Are you talking about making a platform under her feet of some sort?

Bingo. She forms an invisible flatform that she runs through. She's also created invisible slides that she travels through. They're both formed objects.

A thought to create a bubble is as fast if not faster as the thought to find, direct and launch an attack toward a mind.

Unless you're giving Emma biased prep to locate and concentraite on a mind to attack.......

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
She uses force to move it, doesn't she? She projects force at the ground.

She makes the bubble or forcefield, correct? If she just stood on it, wouldn't do much. She moves it because she can manipulate the force. If she can move the force in any way she wants to......she can.....?

If she can instantly protect herself with a forceshield without thinking, shields that she can manipulate and move. FORCE shields.......instant.......powerful.....

*Throws breadcrumbs around*

And as for targeting bs, you stated it's face to face. No targeting neccessary.

-AC

Wrong. It's not force. She has control over the invisible objects, so she can move them around. But she can't generate "force" without the objects. She'd still have to create it first.

If she couldn't protect herself instantly (as she has done in the past), she's be dead.

So if she can go on the defensive INSTANTLY without worrying about forming. Why can't she go on the offensive instantly? The answer: She can.

-AC

Originally posted by long pig
A thought to create a bubble is as fast if not faster as the thought to find, direct and launch an attack toward a mind.

Unless you're giving Emma biased prep to locate and concentraite on a mind to attack.......

emma can do this with her eyes closed.

Locates, finished.

emma, locates, constructs( includes envelopment, size, shape, width, sharpness, etc.) all of this happens fast, but...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If she couldn't protect herself instantly (as she has done in the past), she's be dead.

So if she can go on the defensive INSTANTLY without worrying about forming. Why can't she go on the offensive instantly? The answer: She can.

-AC she still has to form.

For instance, a missle is coming, constructs, boom, cancels.

It happens fast, yes, but so does emma, and it doesn't need the extra step.

"I have a crossbow"

You're just making that up though. Throwing it in for no reason.

Envelopment, size, shape, width, sharpness. Give it a goddamn rest. That's BS isn't it?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If she can instantly protect herself with a forceshield without thinking, shields that she can manipulate and move. FORCE shields.......instant.......powerful.....


There's a certain amount of instinctive survival tactics to that, but that's reflex the way it is that we instinctively cover ourselves up when punched. That's purely defensive. In order to take offensive action (which, last I checked, is what we're talking about here), it's still very much a conscious effort.



You dropped something.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're just making that up though. Throwing it in for no reason.

Envelopment, size, shape, width, sharpness. Give it a goddamn rest. That's BS isn't it?

-AC Why is it made up?

When has she not had to do otherwise, I'm curious...

As a side point, Panther was actually fast enough to jump into her forcefield before she put it completely up. So even THAT is questionable.

Originally posted by demigawd
As a side point, Panther was actually fast enough to jump into her forcefield before she put it completely up. So even THAT is questionable. Never knew..

what issue?

This past issue of Marvel Knights Fantastic Four.

Fun stuff....I just read it too. Funny coincidence, huh?

Ain't lookin good for Sue.

Originally posted by demigawd
This past issue of Marvel Knights Fantastic Four. I'm in the library now, hold on a sec...

She's not fighting The Black Panther is she? Stop going elsewhere.

Originally posted by demigawd
There's a certain amount of instinctive survival tactics to that, but that's reflex the way it is that we instinctively cover ourselves up when punched. That's purely defensive. In order to take offensive action (which, last I checked, is what we're talking about here), it's still very much a conscious effort.

I can punch as fast as I can block. Being defensive is more conscious than being offensive.

Originally posted by The C-Master
Why is it made up?

When has she not had to do otherwise, I'm curious...

Really? Coz I'm curious as where she's had to stand there and act out an episode of the New Yankee Workshop to construct a forcefield.

Reed: SUE! WATCH OUT FOR THAT SIGN ABOUT TO FALL ON US!
Sue: Hang on. Let me just crack out the tape measure. Gotta decide how big we want this shield, how sharp. What colour?

It's the same as the old "Hulk needs to get mad to be super strong. He needs time."

Secret Wars says differently.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
She's not fighting The Black Panther is she? Stop going elsewhere.


You've missed the point. Unless Panther is Flash now, the formation of a bubble does, in fact, time some amount of time.

Panther isn't the Flash, is he?



I'll assume you're joking or have never been in a fight.



Green Lanterns don't go through all of that, either. But they're CLEARLY making the objects. They just do it at the speed of thought. But that's still a few extra 30m/s impulses than point-and-shoot telepaths.

Marvel Knights isn't canon is it?

Emma has to:
1: Locate
2. Engage
3. Launch

Sue as to:

1. Create
2 .Locate
3. Launch

It's equal.
WTF?

Originally posted by demigawd
You've missed the point. Unless Panther is Flash now, the formation of a bubble does, in fact, time some amount of time.

I could say, on the flip side, Emma isn't as fast. Because she couldn't tell that Sue was about to attack.

Originally posted by demigawd
Green Lanterns don't go through all of that, either. But they're CLEARLY making the objects. They just do it at the speed of thought. But that's still a few extra 30m/s impulses than point-and-shoot telepaths.

Says who though? You? Sue operates at the speed of thought, so does Emma.

-AC

What do you mean it's not canon? Of course it's canon.

Emma has to:
1. Locate
2. Launch

Sue has to:
1. Locate
2. Create
3. Launch
And then there's the actual time it takes for said invisible object to REACH Emma, which we've been neglecting.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
She's not fighting The Black Panther is she? Stop going elsewhere.

No, but when black panther jumped through, that took physical and mental activity, therefore more time.

Thus showing that she indeed doesn't have the advantage of instant force.

Panther jumps at xavier, what happens?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I can punch as fast as I can block. Being defensive is more conscious than being offensive.

No its not, I fought overseas, what happens when you blink at someone waving their hand at you?

When you flinch, reflexes are INSTANTANEOUS.
No thought, subconscious.

reflex,n:An involuntary physiological response to a stimulus..

When I punch, I have to pinpoint, aim, balance, counter balance, and attack..

reflex is a involuntary response, its subconscious, like a heartbeat.



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Really? Coz I'm curious as where she's had to stand there and act out an episode of the New Yankee Workshop to construct a forcefield.

She had to construct it, aha!!

You just said so yourself, and even mental construction takes time.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Reed: SUE! WATCH OUT FOR THAT SIGN ABOUT TO FALL ON US!
Sue: Hang on. Let me just crack out the tape measure. Gotta decide how big we want this shield, how sharp. What colour?

She doesn't have to say that no differently than I have to choose what finger to strike this keyboard as I type.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's the same as the old "Hulk needs to get mad to be super strong. He needs time."

Hulk requires adrenaline, "getting mad" is more or less a misconception.

Hulk is superstrong, he gradually increases though, because of his ability to tap into another dimension.

Originally posted by demigawd
What do you mean it's not canon? Of course it's canon.

Emma has to:
1. Locate
2. Launch

Sue has to:
1. Locate
2. Create
3. Launch
And then there's the actual time it takes for said invisible object to REACH Emma, which we've been neglecting.

Marvel Knights isn't canon.

I could be wrong, but do ya know of anywhere it says it's canon?

Also, it takes time for a telepathic assault to reach a mind, you keep neglecting that.

Amazing the way people shove their noses into science books when they can't get their way.

Why is this "locate" business here? Did you not read the thread?

So it's more or less just launch and launch. They both operate at the same speed. She doesn't HAVE to form, she can fire instantly. Like Hydro-Man fires water. He only takes time to create geysers if he tries and thinks about it. If he just wants to crush someone's skull with a cannon of water, it's more or less instant.

-AC

Originally posted by long pig
Marvel Knights isn't canon.

I could be wrong, but do ya know of anywhere it says it's canon?

Also, it takes time for a telepathic assault to reach a mind, you keep neglecting that.

No, there is no latency time for a tp?

xavier could put wolverine to sleep next to him, or across a football field, one may take more effort, but the time of the attack, and the damage, is instant, like forming the bubble.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I could say, on the flip side, Emma isn't as fast. Because she couldn't tell that Sue was about to attack.


You could say that. But then you'd be wrong. If Sue was already preparing to attack, then she has the headstart. She'd already be two steps in. Of course she'd get her attack off first. Not exactly quickdraw, is it?

Panther, on the other hand, jumped into the field before it finished forming. That means that we've been neglecting the actual formation speed of the objects itself. No longer.



Agreed. But as I've been saying, Sue has three things to think about at the speed of thought. Emma has but two. And that's not counting the actual launching of said object.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
No, but when black panther jumped through, that took physical and mental activity, therefore more time.

Thus showing that she indeed doesn't have the advantage of instant force.

Panther jumps at xavier, what happens?

Like I said, if it's speed you're raising, Emma has proven she's not as quick as you all think. For a telepath.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
No its not, I fought overseas, what happens when you blink at someone waving their hand at you?

When you flinch, reflexes are INSTANTANEOUS.
No thought, subconscious.

reflex,n:An involuntary physiological response to a stimulus..

When I punch, I have to pinpoint, aim, balance, counter balance, and attack..

reflex is a involuntary response, its subconscious, like a heartbeat.

You're denying there's such a thing as instinctive attack? You should know, you're a martial artist right?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
She had to construct it, aha!!

You just said so yourself, and even mental construction takes time.

No, I quoted you. I've never seen her have to do that, was what I'm saying. Unless she was trying to form a specific shape.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Hulk requires adrenaline, "getting mad" is more or less a misconception.

Hulk is superstrong, he gradually increases though, because of his ability to tap into another dimension.

He looked up, in a calm state, saw a multi-billion ton mountain falling. He stopped it. Instinct. Point proven.

-AC

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
No, there is no latency time for a tp?

xavier could put wolverine to sleep next to him, or across a football field, one may take more effort, but the time of the attack, and the damage, is instant, like forming the bubble.
Yes, mental assaults take time to happen, it doesn't just happen. Usually the farther away the longer it takes, or the more mental resistant the longer it takes.

Originally posted by long pig
Marvel Knights isn't canon.

I could be wrong, but do ya know of anywhere it says it's canon?


You mean the "this is OK for comic battles!" sticker? Missed it. But Daredevil is Marvel Knights, and other characters in other books acknowledge its events. Ditto with Punisher. So clearly the MK line is part of canon. It's just "more mature" stories, not an alternate universe.



No it doesn't. Telepathic attacks are instant. Unlike Sue, it's not a wave of, heh heh, "force" that travels from one opponent to the other. It just happens. Which is why a telepathic attack from miles away are as instant as from a few feet away.

Originally posted by demigawd
You could say that. But then you'd be wrong. If Sue was already preparing to attack, then she has the headstart. She'd already be two steps in. Of course she'd get her attack off first. Not exactly quickdraw, is it?

So she didn't plan it. That means she didn't stand there constructing anything. That means it didn't take any time at all did it? From the SECOND Sue's attack was initiated, Emma would have known and stopped. She didn't coz Sue was too fast.

Originally posted by demigawd
Panther, on the other hand, jumped into the field before it finished forming. That means that we've been neglecting the actual formation speed of the objects itself. No longer.

You just proved my point above. Formation isn't neccessary unless she's trying to form something.

Originally posted by demigawd
Agreed. But as I've been saying, Sue has three things to think about at the speed of thought. Emma has but two. And that's not counting the actual launching of said object.

That's to you though. You think she has to locate her, she doesn't. You think she has to form, she doesn't. You think she has to then launch it. She doesn't have to do it all in steps. It happens instantly UNLESS she has a specific idea in mind. If Emma wants to lift a steel girder she has to locate it, focus on it and then lift it. In this fight, she needs no location. Neither does Sue. She needs no focus because she's not specifically trying to complete a task. She needs no launch time. Neither does Sue.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Amazing the way people shove their noses into science books when they can't get their way.

Why is this "locate" business here? Did you not read the thread?

So it's more or less just launch and launch. They both operate at the same speed. She doesn't HAVE to form, she can fire instantly. Like Hydro-Man fires water. He only takes time to create geysers if he tries and thinks about it. If he just wants to crush someone's skull with a cannon of water, it's more or less instant.

-AC

Locate was LP's term. In truth, it's "identify target", which they both have to do to prevent EVERYBODY from getting hit. Sue has to think, "attack in front of him", Emma has to think, "Attack Sue". The difference again, is actually two things:

1)Sue has to form the object. There is no such thing as Sue "projecting unformed force", and until you provide evidence of otherwise, that will continue to remain so.

2)The invisible objects has to actually travel from Sue to her opponent.

Those are two extra steps that take time, take that sue doesn't have.

Originally posted by demigawd
You mean the "this is OK for comic battles!" sticker? Missed it. But Daredevil is Marvel Knights, and other characters in other books acknowledge its events. Ditto with Punisher. So clearly the MK line is part of canon. It's just "more mature" stories, not an alternate universe.



No it doesn't. Telepathic attacks are instant. Unlike Sue, it's not a wave of, heh heh, "force" that travels from one opponent to the other. It just happens. Which is why a telepathic attack from miles away are as instant as from a few feet away.

No, not canon as in "Wouldn't really happen, but since this isn't in the "real" marvel world, we can allow it."

I'm looking at a comic right here where Prof.X says "Wait a moment, this may take a second." while trying to use a mental attack on Cain.
It even shows the telepathic attack "bubble" traveling towards Cain and hitting him.

If it travels, it takes time. Telepathy travels.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Like I said, if it's speed you're raising, Emma has proven she's not as quick as you all think. For a telepath.

Its not as quick as I think, its the fact that the example you are basing your premise off of has NO connection or relativity to this match whatsoever.

No grimm, no headaches, no animousity, nothing.

A quick draw.

Back to the point, if Black Panther can jump through the bubble, field, or whatever, that there should show that it needs time to construct.

BP jumps at xavier what happens?



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're denying there's such a thing as instinctive attack? You should know, you're a martial artist right?

Yes, the instinctive attack however is still defensive. Involuntary, thats the difference.

I use mostly instinct through training, sue and emma have trained.

There is no "response to stimuli here" if a person is hit they're done.

The instinctive attack that is a reflex is the kind where I come from behind you and tap your shoulder, no concentration or anything. A reflex.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, I quoted you. I've never seen her have to do that, was what I'm saying. Unless she was trying to form a specific shape.

So the "force" has to be constructed correct.

Lets call that step two, under the same step that emma has launched her attack.

Sue has conjured, doesn't that "force" need direction?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
He looked up, in a calm state, saw a multi-billion ton mountain falling. He stopped it. Instinct. Point proven.


I was explaining the misconception of the adrenaline, in that he had some assisstance in doing the said feat correct?

This is defensive as well, correct?

So you've only agreed with me...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So she didn't plan it. That means she didn't stand there constructing anything. That means it didn't take any time at all did it? From the SECOND Sue's attack was initiated, Emma would have known and stopped. She didn't coz Sue was too fast.


A telepath has to broadcast in to know ahead of time what exact is going to happen. They train themselves to keep thoughts out to keep from going crazy. Emma wasn't thinking Sue was going to attack her, so she wasn't broadcasting for hostile thoughts. By the time she got some kind of hostile intent alert, Sue's attack was too far in. It's like running and running and suddenly coming upon a cliff. Even if you know a second in advance, you're not going to be able to stop instantly that quickly, even if your mind processes the need to stop on time first. You're going off the cliff. That was Emma, who was mid-sentence when Sue decided to attack.

Also, the larger the object, the more time it takes to form. A force bubble takes more time, which is why Panther was able to jump in. Either way, the formation time isn't negligible.



No. Formation time varies based upon what she's forming. The very fact that there IS formation time, no matter how fast, makes the overall attack less than the speed of thought, and thus slower than a telepathic attack.

Sue is still incapable of sending out instant force. It's just not her power. So she still has too many steps to go through to get an attack off first.

Originally posted by long pig
No, not canon as in "Wouldn't really happen, but since this isn't in the "real" marvel world, we can allow it."


Except MK IS the real marvel world, so it IS canon.



I'm reading a comic here where Xavier is having a real time conversation with Lilandra from a galaxy away. If telepathy travels, it's MIGHTY fast. Unlike, say, Sue's forming bubble which is so slow Panther could hop through it.

Originally posted by demigawd



I'm reading a comic here where Xavier is having a real time conversation with Lilandra from a galaxy away. If telepathy travels, it's MIGHTY fast. Unlike, say, Sue's forming bubble which is so slow Panther could hop through it. like online emails to writing a letter?

Originally posted by demigawd
Except MK IS the real marvel world, so it IS canon.



I'm reading a comic here where Xavier is having a real time conversation with Lilandra from a galaxy away. If telepathy travels, it's MIGHTY fast. Unlike, say, Sue's forming bubble which is so slow Panther could hop through it.

They have a connection already established allowing them to "talk" at anytime without having to reach out and engage the other.
C'mon now....

Marvel Knights isn't canon, it's about as canon as a "What If?".

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Its not as quick as I think, its the fact that the example you are basing your premise off of has NO connection or relativity to this match whatsoever.

No grimm, no headaches, no animousity, nothing.

A quick draw.

Back to the point, if Black Panther can jump through the bubble, field, or whatever, that there should show that it needs time to construct.

BP jumps at xavier what happens?

Xavier stops him. Bearing in mind he's one of the most powerful telepaths ever. Emma Frost isn't. She's just a very powerful telepath.

Also, you can't continually use this whole speed thing. Because as I've shown, Emma isn't as fast as you claim either then. She obviously needs something to be as effective.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Yes, the instinctive attack however is still defensive. Involuntary, thats the difference.

Involuntary, I can agree to an extent. Defensive, I don't think so. You can attack involuntarily. It's just not as heard of. Hence why some people regret punching someone. That's not a tap on the shoulder thing. That, and I think this is all more or less out of our topic.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
So the "force" has to be constructed correct.

Lets call that step two, under the same step that emma has launched her attack.

Sue has conjured, doesn't that "force" need direction?

No listen. You said something that I replied to. That's all.

She only has to construct a shape if she WANTS a shape.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I was explaining the misconception of the adrenaline, in that he had some assisstance in doing the said feat correct?

This is defensive as well, correct?

So you've only agreed with me...

He didn't NEED to get mad like Sue doesn't NEED to form stuff.

Originally posted by demigawd
A telepath has to broadcast in to know ahead of time what exact is going to happen. They train themselves to keep thoughts out to keep from going crazy. Emma wasn't thinking Sue was going to attack her, so she wasn't broadcasting for hostile thoughts. By the time she got some kind of hostile intent alert, Sue's attack was too far in. It's like running and running and suddenly coming upon a cliff. Even if you know a second in advance, you're not going to be able to stop instantly that quickly, even if your mind processes the need to stop on time first. You're going off the cliff. That was Emma, who was mid-sentence when Sue decided to attack.

So if Sue's attack was too far in, that's another point proven. These things travel extremely fast. Sue wasn't enjoying Emma's speech then randomly decided to attack. She did have it on her mind.

Also, that's Emma's downfall. She's too arrogant, far too arrogant. You seem to be an advocate of past to predict the future. Emma has been beat before, I'm not gonna be on her again.

Originally posted by demigawd
No. Formation time varies based upon what she's forming. The very fact that there IS formation time, no matter how fast, makes the overall attack less than the speed of thought, and thus slower than a telepathic attack.

Sue is still incapable of sending out instant force. It's just not her power. So she still has too many steps to go through to get an attack off first.

Sue DOES factually operate at the speed of thought though. We've seen this. Why is it being denied?

-AC

Originally posted by long pig
They have a connection already established allowing them to "talk" at anytime without having to reach out and engage the other.
C'mon now....

Marvel Knights isn't canon, it's about as canon as a "What If?".

it's still telepathic, isn't it? They have a "soul" connection. All that means is that they are always connected to each other, so that one knows when the other goes "off-line". But it's still telepathic communication. which is real time.

Before Magneto screwed up intraplanetary telepathy communication, hey had real time conversations with Magneto from across the planet.

Why do you keep saying MK isn't canon? I just said Daredevil is Marvel Knights, and its events were referenced when Daredevil appeared in New Avengers. Doesn't that prove the MK line is canon?

This thread looks like a "Are you an X-Men fan or an F4 fan" thread to me. Sue already beat Emma. It was totally in character considering Sue has been fighting longer and harder than Emma so she's more acustomed to combat. And just so the X-fans know, Sue has come a long way since being Invisible Girl...so when you bring up examples of Sue's defeats from 1963, they're kinda out dated.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Xavier stops him. Bearing in mind he's one of the most powerful telepaths ever. Emma Frost isn't. She's just a very powerful telepath.

Yes, xavier stops him. The point is, BP has NO more of a chance against a xavier at his best, than an emma at her best, they are both going down.

Sue on the other hand, proved she is still vurnerable while constructing a field.

Much like light has almost no mass?

Increase the concentration, and it does gain mass, thats how black holes absorb them.

No different than sue taking more time to conjure her "force" for a MUCH larger area.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Also, you can't continually use this whole speed thing. Because as I've shown, Emma isn't as fast as you claim either then.
What was my claim, I didn't make an explicit speed claim.

My premise: emma takes less steps for her assault, than for sue.

Once again the example you used doesn't correlate with the debate and its stipulations.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
She obviously needs something to be as effective.

Yes, and she has it, no suckerpunch, no animousity, just a quickdraw between her and susan.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Involuntary, I can agree to an extent. Defensive, I don't think so.
Involuntary is reflexes, and reflexes are defense.

My reflex was based on a stimuli, which was being in defense, which was involuntary.

How can you provoke a reflex with no stimuli?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You can attack involuntarily. It's just not as heard of. Hence why some people regret punching someone.

I regret punching people because I don't like having to do so.

Like I said, I wake my uncle up (posttraumatic stress from vietnam), he swings at me.

he regrets it, it was an attack, but in defense, understand now?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That's not a tap on the shoulder thing. That, and I think this is all more or less out of our topic.
The premise if you remember was from demigawd, susan constructs her fields faster, if its a reflex, reflexes are defensive.

The NEED a stimuli.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No listen. You said something that I replied to. That's all.
k...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
She only has to construct a shape if she WANTS a shape.

It has to be formed, no matter what it is.

It still needs direction, unless its a blast.

Sue targets, and projects.... what?

What is missing there?


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
He didn't NEED to get mad like Sue doesn't NEED to form stuff.

He needed adrenaline, no less than sue has to direct her attacks, which it is in this case.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So if Sue's attack was too far in, that's another point proven. These things travel extremely fast. Sue wasn't enjoying Emma's speech then randomly decided to attack. She did have it on her mind.

They do, they definitely do, especially considering the size and target of what she was doing.

The point IS that susan had it on her mind, another step.

It was no quick draw, like this matchup.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Also, that's Emma's downfall. She's too arrogant, far too arrogant. You seem to be an advocate of past to predict the future.

There is no gloating here, no plot device.

Fine that it happened, but the future isn't quite related to the past here as much as it seems.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Emma has been beat before, I'm not gonna be on her again.
Sue has been beaten before as well.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Sue DOES factually operate at the speed of thought though. We've seen this.

even an energy user as advanced as magneto needs time to project it, focus it, etc.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Why is it being denied?
I agree with her thought projection, that itself is what takes time.
More thoughts=more time.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Xavier stops him. Bearing in mind he's one of the most powerful telepaths ever. Emma Frost isn't. She's just a very powerful telepath.


But he's more powerful not because he's faster, he's more powerful because he can do more, for longer, to greater effect. Speed of thought is speed of thought.

Let's rephrase. If Panther jumped at Emma instead of Xavier, what happens?



You haven't shown anything. Your evidence consists of Sue knocking out Emma who wasn't even trying to fight while Emma was talking. You can take a telepath who isn't primed for a fight by surprise. We know that. That means nothing, because in this scenario, they both know they're about to fight.



No, she's required to make a shape, because that's her power. Name one time otherwise has been shown.



No she didn't. She decided to attack BECAUSE Emma was talking trash. If Sue had been thinking, "I'm gonna knock this trick out if she gets in my face", and Emma was thinking, "I think this ho might swing at me if I get in her face, I better listen in", THEN we're talking on even terms.

That's not what happened.



Using the past to predict the future would dictate that if Emma were again talking trash and not expecting Sue to attack and Sue attacked that, yes, Emma would get nailed again.

Unfortuantely that's not the scenario here. The scenario here is that they're both primed for battle and let loose an attack at the same time. Completely different situation. So THAT past has no bearing on THIS future.



You're missing the point. She operates at the speed of thought, but she has an extra thought process to go through, which I've shown repeatedly.

Originally posted by Wynndar
This thread looks like a "Are you an X-Men fan or an F4 fan" thread to me. Sue already beat Emma. It was totally in character considering Sue has been fighting longer and harder than Emma so she's more acustomed to combat. And just so the X-fans know, Sue has come a long way since being Invisible Girl...so when you bring up examples of Sue's defeats from 1963, they're kinda out dated.
I like FF more than xmen, it was to end the other discussions ONCE and for all, as they all come down to this.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I like FF more than xmen, it was to end the other discussions ONCE and for all, as they all come down to this.

Oh, you think this is gonna END the discussion? heh heh heh...

Originally posted by demigawd
Oh, you think this is gonna END the discussion? heh heh heh... no, I've dealt with wolverine vs spiderman for over 200 pages now.

At least it'll be denial.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Yes, xavier stops him. The point is, BP has NO more of a chance against a xavier at his best, than an emma at her best, they are both going down.

Sue on the other hand, proved she is still vurnerable while constructing a field.

That's just because of the nature of telepathy though. The degree to which they are skilled is irrelevant. Moreover, you keep forgetting that Sue has demonstrated psionic resistance before.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Much like light has almost no mass?

Increase the concentration, and it does gain mass, thats how black holes absorb them.

No different than sue taking more time to conjure her "force" for a MUCH larger area.

What are you getting at here? Not sure to what you are referring.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
What was my claim, I didn't make an explicit speed claim.

My premise: emma takes less steps for her assault, than for sue.

Once again the example you used doesn't correlate with the debate and its stipulations.

You're giving her steps she doesn't use though. Locating is BS, you created the thread stating that they were facing each other. So it's down to who is fastest. They both operate at the speed of thought. So by the time Emma attacks, Sue will quite possibly already have her shield up and/or launched an attack of her own.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Involuntary is reflexes, and reflexes are defense.

My reflex was based on a stimuli, which was being in defense, which was involuntary.

How can you provoke a reflex with no stimuli?

Not sure where this is at all relevant anymore, but reflexes can be triggered my mental stimuli. Hence why one second of pure rage might be enough to smack someone in the face. Not that this matters to Sue Vs Emma.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Like I said, I wake my uncle up (posttraumatic stress from vietnam), he swings at me.

he regrets it, it was an attack, but in defense, understand now?

Of course there are defensive attacks. I never misunderstood you. You just didn't pick up on what I meant.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
The premise if you remember was from demigawd, susan constructs her fields faster, if its a reflex, reflexes are defensive.

The NEED a stimuli.

Why are you assuming she has no stimuli though? Mental stimuli is stimuli too and can be just as effective as it's more vivid.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
It has to be formed, no matter what it is.

It still needs direction, unless its a blast.

Sue targets, and projects.... what?

Stop all this.

Where are you getting "targetting" and all this from? Please inform me before we move on. She projects, no targeting needing. Project and fire.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
What is missing there?

Logic.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
He needed adrenaline, no less than sue has to direct her attacks, which it is in this case.

And he got it didn't he? He didn't need time.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
They do, they definitely do, especially considering the size and target of what she was doing.

The point IS that susan had it on her mind, another step.

It was no quick draw, like this matchup.

They aren't going to be standing there with blank minds are they? Let's be real. Sue had it on her mind so Emma could have read it. Whether she did or not, she got beat.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Sue has been beaten before as well.

By Emma?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
even an energy user as advanced as magneto needs time to project it, focus it, etc.

I agree with her thought projection, that itself is what takes time.
More thoughts=more time.

Depends on the thought. If I'm in a traditional shootout, I have no choice but to think about one thing only, getting the first shot.

Originally posted by demigawd
Let's rephrase. If Panther jumped at Emma instead of Xavier, what happens?

See first quote.

Originally posted by demigawd
You haven't shown anything. Your evidence consists of Sue knocking out Emma who wasn't even trying to fight while Emma was talking. You can take a telepath who isn't primed for a fight by surprise. We know that. That means nothing, because in this scenario, they both know they're about to fight.

Sue had it on her mind to take out Emma. Emma MUST have known, because her powers suggest that. So talking or not, they weren't back to each other. They were similar to this situation. How do we know Emma didn't plan to attack slyly? We don't. The fact is, Sue was so fast the Emma got knocked out and she DID know she was going to attack.

Originally posted by demigawd
No, she's required to make a shape, because that's her power. Name one time otherwise has been shown

When she wills a shield up out of instinct, she has to will a shape, correct? So if shapes take so long, WHY can she do them instantly to protect herself? When she wills a standard instant barrier (not neccessarily a bubble), it's a default shield. Just a barrier. She doesn't have to put hardly any thought in. If she wants to make a spike shape, or a specific shape THEN she thinks.

Originally posted by demigawd
No she didn't. She decided to attack BECAUSE Emma was talking trash. If Sue had been thinking, "I'm gonna knock this trick out if she gets in my face", and Emma was thinking, "I think this ho might swing at me if I get in her face, I better listen in", THEN we're talking on even terms.

You're denying that Sue had the thought "I'm gonna attack her."? She had to have that before she attacked or she wouldn't have attacked. So Emma must have known.

Originally posted by demigawd
You're missing the point. She operates at the speed of thought, but she has an extra thought process to go through, which I've shown repeatedly.

You're the one assuming she's gonna stand there making some articulate bubble that takes ages. Based on what?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That's just because of the nature of telepathy though. The degree to which they are skilled is irrelevant. Moreover, you keep forgetting that Sue has demonstrated psionic resistance before.

Where has this been confirmed as a true,solid fact.

And if so, why did she get her "headache".



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
What are you getting at here? Not sure to what you are referring.

That it takes time to make a field, and isn't instant, no matter how fast it is, unlike a tp.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're giving her steps she doesn't use though. Locating is BS, you created the thread stating that they were facing each other. So it's down to who is fastest. They both operate at the speed of thought. So by the time Emma attacks, Sue will quite possibly already have her shield up and/or launched an attack of her own.

Where is it shown she uses force, without creating or implenting it somehow?

Emma locates just like sue, it doesn't take that long to, but you need a target.

If you are standing at a tree, where are you hitting that tree?

She stil has to direct it.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Not sure where this is at all relevant anymore, but reflexes can be triggered my mental stimuli. Hence why one second of pure rage might be enough to smack someone in the face. Not that this matters to Sue Vs Emma.

reflexes are ALWAYS triggered by stimuli, SOMETHING has to happen first, no matter how insignificant.



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Of course there are defensive attacks. I never misunderstood you. You just didn't pick up on what I meant.

I thought they weren't, do I need to show what stimuli is?

A stimuli represents a force, that equates a readction.

Be it rain or whatever, a plant opening from the sun, its all stimuli.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Why are you assuming she has no stimuli though? Mental stimuli is stimuli too and can be just as effective as it's more vivid.

She has the stimuli, its whatever forced her to react, unless it was an outburst, but I'm sure sue has more control than that.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Where are you getting "targetting" and all this from? Please inform me before we move on. She projects, no targeting needing. Project and fire.

I have a crossbow.

The target is there, but I have to pinpoint the spot.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Logic.

indeed, that there is more steps for sue, she has to create, THEN project.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
And he got it didn't he? He didn't need time.

His was a special situation, but either way hulk builds upon this.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
They aren't going to be standing there with blank minds are they? Let's be real. Sue had it on her mind so Emma could have read it. Whether she did or not, she got beat.

That doesn't apply here.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Depends on the thought. If I'm in a traditional shootout, I have no choice but to think about one thing only, getting the first shot.

but imagine having to load your bullet





Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Sue had it on her mind to take out Emma. Emma MUST have known, because her powers suggest that. So talking or not, they weren't back to each other. They were similar to this situation. How do we know Emma didn't plan to attack slyly? We don't. The fact is, Sue was so fast the Emma got knocked out and she DID know she was going to attack.

Is there evidence that suggests that, I saw the scan and...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
When she wills a shield up out of instinct, she has to will a shape, correct? So if shapes take so long, WHY can she do them instantly to protect herself? When she wills a standard instant barrier (not neccessarily a bubble), it's a default shield. Just a barrier. She doesn't have to put hardly any thought in. If she wants to make a spike shape, or a specific shape THEN she thinks.

It doesn't take so long, it just takes a millisecond or so longer, which is all emma neds.

stimuli again.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're denying that Sue had the thought "I'm gonna attack her."? She had to have that before she attacked or she wouldn't have attacked. So Emma must have known.

That is an assumption, I didn't see it in the pages anywhere.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're the one assuming she's gonna stand there making some articulate bubble that takes ages. Based on what?

Just a wee bit longer, once EITHER of them gets hit, its a done deal.

My bets on emma.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Where has this been confirmed as a true,solid fact.

And if so, why did she get her "headache".

When she encountered Psi-Lord. It's been cited countless times.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Where is it shown she uses force, without creating or implenting it somehow?

What do you mean without creating? Anyone who uses force has to create it. YOU take the term create, too literally.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Emma locates just like sue, it doesn't take that long to, but you need a target.

If you are standing at a tree, where are you hitting that tree?

Oh come off it with the bullshit specifics. Sue isn't actually gonna stand the aiming for a head shot or a leg shot is she? Let's try to maintain some level of realism here.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
She stil has to direct it.

Thought they were infront of each other?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
reflexes are ALWAYS triggered by stimuli, SOMETHING has to happen first, no matter how insignificant.

You're agreeing with me.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I thought they weren't, do I need to show what stimuli is?

A stimuli represents a force, that equates a readction.

Be it rain or whatever, a plant opening from the sun, its all stimuli.

Yes, what's your point? You're agreeing with me.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
She has the stimuli, its whatever forced her to react, unless it was an outburst, but I'm sure sue has more control than that.

Ah, so that's why. You assume Sue isn't capable of losing it.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I have a crossbow.

The target is there, but I have to pinpoint the spot.

Sue isn't gonna turn into Bullseye. Any hit is a hit.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
indeed, that there is more steps for sue, she has to create, THEN project.

This takes milliseconds. Hence when she does it to defend herself.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
but imagine having to load your bullet

Why would I go into battle with an unloaded gun when I know my opponent isn't?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
It doesn't take so long, it just takes a millisecond or so longer, which is all emma neds.

stimuli again.

Let's not go overboard. Emma isn't speed of light fast.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
That is an assumption, I didn't see it in the pages anywhere.

Actually getting tired of explaining the very simplest points to you, genuinely.

If Emma is a telepath, and Sue decided to attack. It was on her mind. Because mind controls body. So Emma actually could have read it.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
When she encountered Psi-Lord. It's been cited countless times.

Yes, it has, no different than the fact, that she's been affected by psionics quite fine, so without a plot device, (this match hint hint), how does this affect the fact that Susan reed can be exploited from Emma Frost's psionic attacks.

Nowhere.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
What do you mean without creating? Anyone who uses force has to create it.

Exactly what i've been trying to say to you, it doesn't happen, like a telepathic assault, its another step.

I'm hoping you won't go back on this and say there's no step?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
YOU take the term create, too literally.

It apples to this match, to manipulate or create, is a step and it takes time.

Does Emma need to create anything, no.

You are arguing this for me.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Oh come off it with the bullshit specifics.

It applies to both people, I never said how long it would or wouldn't take, they both move at the speed of thought, keeping that in mind, more tasks means more thought, means more time.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Sue isn't actually gonna stand the aiming for a head shot or a leg shot is she? Let's try to maintain some level of realism here.

This apples to both, no more than I spend aiming for my keyboard, its a step and it takes time.

Otherwise it takes more time to construct a larger "field" if its not concentrated on a specific spot.

Where is that spot centauri?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Thought they were infront of each other?

I take a piss in a toilet in front of me, I have to direct AND aim my piss.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're agreeing with me.



Yes, what's your point? You're agreeing with me.

I sympathise.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Ah, so that's why. You assume Sue isn't capable of losing it.

How would losing control help your argument? .


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Sue isn't gonna turn into Bullseye. Any hit is a hit.

What are you aiming for incapacitiation, where?

Emma's lower level attacks should work fine, depending on strength and location is sue's attacks.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
This takes milliseconds. Hence when she does it to defend herself.

I said it took milliseconds, but that millisecond counts as well, thats an extra millisecond into a step, don't you see?

Its all at the speed of thought, but one has more steps.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Why would I go into battle with an unloaded gun when I know my opponent isn't?

Its by nature of sues attack, its an extra step, here's a better analogy.

My gun fires by thought, you have to pull your trigger...

To squeeze the trigger takes an additional step, no matter if it takes milliseconds.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Let's not go overboard. Emma isn't speed of light fast.

Speed of thought fast.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Actually getting tired of explaining the very simplest points to you, genuinely.

Lol, I'm on your idiot list now, I apologize truly.

My point is, speed of thought for eveyone, but one has more steps.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If Emma is a telepath, and Sue decided to attack. It was on her mind. Because mind controls body. So Emma actually could have read it.

Spiderman ambushed xavier and tackled the xmen before he recovered.

This is xavier too.

Emma wins.....

Emma's attack originates within Sue's mind.

Sue's attack originates. . in her hand? on her forehead?

Sue's attack has to travel the distence between them.

Emma's does not.

U dont know what ur talking about.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Emma's attack originates within Sue's mind.

Sue's attack originates. . in her hand? on her forehead?

Sue's attack has to travel the distence between them.

Emma's does not. So in conclusion?

sues attack can originate in Emma's mind just as well. U dont grasp Sue's powers. They are not a blasts that travel. They have no mass and are even more abstract tha TK because they originate in another dimension. IF Sue wants to make a field in Emma's head then its there. If she wants to make a resonance that destroys her body, then her body destructs. If your going to analyze and make conclusions about IW's powers you might want to read some F4 comics so that you know what they are, instead of assuming based on what you saw in the movie HAHAHA.

Originally posted by Wynndar
sues attack can originate in Emma's mind just as well. U dont grasp Sue's powers. They are not a blasts that travel. They have no mass and are even more abstract tha TK because they originate in another dimension. IF Sue wants to make a field in Emma's head then its there. If she wants to make a resonance that destroys her body, then her body destructs. If your going to analyze and make conclusions about IW's powers you might want to read some F4 comics so that you know what they are, instead of assuming based on what you saw in the movie HAHAHA.

I didn't watch the movie, and demi damned sure pointed all of this out, yes it goes there, but she has to create it, and direct it.
I've said nothing different.

cute though...

Originally posted by Wynndar
sues attack can originate in Emma's mind just as well. U dont grasp Sue's powers. They are not a blasts that travel. They have no mass and are even more abstract tha TK because they originate in another dimension. IF Sue wants to make a field in Emma's head then its there. If she wants to make a resonance that destroys her body, then her body destructs. If your going to analyze and make conclusions about IW's powers you might want to read some F4 comics so that you know what they are, instead of assuming based on what you saw in the movie HAHAHA. I've read the books, I know how they work.

CM and I are basically arguing the same points, so I don't need to rehatch the same ideas just to add space. But a few points:

I want someone to tell me exactly what happened between Psi-Lord and Sue, and the issue number. Just because someone is fighting a psi doesn't mean the psi was using telepathic attacks that she's blocking. Exodus fought Holocaust, who has ZERO telepathic resistence, because Tessa later owned him in a second. And yet, Holocaust beat him. Why? Because in order to make the fight competitive, they chose to not have Exodus use a telepathic attack. So I don't just want to know that IW fought and beat Psi-Lord, who has, like, a million or so powers, I want to know that Psi-Lord tried to telepathically mindblast Sue and Sue blocked it. Psi-Lord using only telekinesis doesn't prove anything. Scans are extra appreciated, though not required.

IW sucker punching Emma doesn't prove anything. Should Emma have seen it coming? No, because telepaths have trained themselves to not listen to thoughts unless they're screamed out or they're in combat mode. Read any issue of X-men, and you always read an exchange like this:

Character thinks something
Emma: Oh, that's disgusting!
Character: Stay out of my thoughts!
Emma: I was, but you were positively screaming it!

Emma was not listening in because she wasn't primed for combat, and that's why she got nailed. It's a SUCKER PUNCH.

Wolverine gutted Magneto by jumping in out of nowhere and slashed him with METAL CLAWS. Is that any indicator whatsoever that Wolverine could EVER take Magneto in a fight? Of course not. So quit felching that two panel exchange because it doesn't predict anything at all about how this encounter would go. We KNOW that telepaths can be caught unawares. It happens frequently. They're telepaths, not gods. So don't say that Emma isn't as fast as I think - you don't know how fast I think she is. I'm not saying how fast she is, I'm saying that she's faster than Sue for all the reasons I spent five pages here and several pages on other threads explaining.

Sue has more steps to go through, and she HAS to both shape and direct her invisible objects. Otherwise, what does it come out as? What direction does it go? Those are decisions she has to make. She's not Cyclops, whose blasts come out at one speed from one place. It comes from anywhere she wants. The good thing about that is that it comes from anywhere she wants. The bad thing about that is that she has to decide where it comes from. It's a give and take that ultimately adds an extra step in her mental process. That's fact because that's how her powers work.

And finally, if she can't just "throw force". It ALWAYS takes a shape that SHE decides. There's never been a situation where otherwise is shown.

No more than Emma has to direct or focus on a mind. Sue's powers originate in another dimension. Hey constructs travel if she wants them to but generally they exst where she wants them to, ie a bubble around an individuals head. Or how about her powers manifesting in spatially distant places. Or how about her making the Earth invisble? did her field have to travel all around the Earth? Or how about making Terrax's field lifting Manhattan visible? Did the field of visibility travel? No she wasnt even looking at the field because it was already invisible.

Originally posted by Wynndar
sues attack can originate in Emma's mind just as well. U dont grasp Sue's powers. They are not a blasts that travel. They have no mass and are even more abstract tha TK because they originate in another dimension. IF Sue wants to make a field in Emma's head then its there. If she wants to make a resonance that destroys her body, then her body destructs. If your going to analyze and make conclusions about IW's powers you might want to read some F4 comics so that you know what they are, instead of assuming based on what you saw in the movie HAHAHA.

That's a great point, actually. Everybody pay attention to Wynndar, he speaks truth.

Sue DECIDES where her attack goes. If she wants it to originate in Emma's head, then by god, it originates in Emma's head. JUST LIKE THAT. As long as Sue DECIDES it, and THINKS about where it goes, that's where it goes!

Thank you, Wynndar.

Are we ignoring X4 now because it no longer works in the FF's favour?
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/anticryste/emmaff.jpg

indeed...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Are we ignoring X4 now because it no longer works in the FF's favour?
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/anticryste/emmaff.jpg

Maybe X4 isn't canon, like Marvel Knights, lol.

To C-Master.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Yes, it has, no different than the fact, that she's been affected by psionics quite fine, so without a plot device, (this match hint hint), how does this affect the fact that Susan reed can be exploited from Emma Frost's psionic attacks.

Nowhere.

She resisted it because it's in her power to resist it. Why do so many people pussy out and call it a plot device?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Exactly what i've been trying to say to you, it doesn't happen, like a telepathic assault, its another step.

I'm hoping you won't go back on this and say there's no step?

You're counting steps pointlessly then. Coz even Emma has to go through steps in that case.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
It apples to this match, to manipulate or create, is a step and it takes time.

Does Emma need to create anything, no.

True, but I don't understand this constant assumption that Emma can operate in the fractions of seconds Sue does.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
It applies to both people, I never said how long it would or wouldn't take, they both move at the speed of thought, keeping that in mind, more tasks means more thought, means more time.

I'd like to see the scientific proof that you're comparing Sue's powers to. Just curious as to how you measured her speed.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
This apples to both, no more than I spend aiming for my keyboard, its a step and it takes time.

Not for me. I touch type.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Otherwise it takes more time to construct a larger "field" if its not concentrated on a specific spot.

No it doesn't, but Wynndar has dealt with that.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I take a piss in a toilet in front of me, I have to direct AND aim my piss.

Yes. Not a hard task unless you're handicapped is it?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
What are you aiming for incapacitiation, where?

Emma's lower level attacks should work fine, depending on strength and location is sue's attacks.

You've gone off on so many tangents, I don't even know what you're referring to any more. What does it matter? LEVEL of attack? I swear you're just randomly hitting your keyboard with a hammer and seeing what comes out.

Sue isn't going to specifically aim is she? It's not like holding a gun and having to aim it. It's a very general aim that doesn't need to be pinpointed as much.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I said it took milliseconds, but that millisecond counts as well, thats an extra millisecond into a step, don't you see?

Yeah I see. That's only if you're clutching at straws though. Oh wait...

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Its all at the speed of thought, but one has more steps.

Yeah. That whole millisecond....whatever dude. You're being so unbelievably irrational. You've specified this battle so much that it's come down to milliseconds.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Its by nature of sues attack, its an extra step, here's a better analogy.

My gun fires by thought, you have to pull your trigger...

To squeeze the trigger takes an additional step, no matter if it takes milliseconds.

Trading vices then. You still have the same amount of steps. Just a different step to mine. You're basing your WHOLE arguement around this pointless steps bullshit that I don't have ANY clue where you retrieved it from.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Speed of thought fast.

As is Sue, glad we could clear that up for the millionth time.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
My point is, speed of thought for eveyone, but one has more steps.

Because you're adding it by assuming what she's gonna do and clinging to the fact that Emma will beat Susan Storm-Richards in milliseconds. Bit fake isn't it? Let's be honest.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Spiderman ambushed xavier and tackled the xmen before he recovered.

This is xavier too.

Yes? So? Point being?

Also, the lack of originality here is appalling. Just thought I'd say that.

Xmarks, no offence, but that would be like me posting an F4 comic where the X-Men got whooped. Though realistic, you'd surely claim bias.

-AC

Originally posted by demigawd
That's a great point, actually. Everybody pay attention to Wynndar, he speaks truth.

Sue DECIDES where her attack goes. If she wants it to originate in Emma's head, then by god, it originates in Emma's head. JUST LIKE THAT. As long as Sue DECIDES it, and THINKS about where it goes, that's where it goes!

Thank you, Wynndar.
I could say the same thing about emma

Really now? For numerous pages (including in this thread) X4 is used as an example of Emma being slower than Sue (when looking at it objectively it shows no such thing) and now suddenly it's not relevant since it shows Emma in a more favourable light.

Originally posted by Wynndar
I could say the same thing about emma

You could.

But then you'd be wrong.

Emma doesn't decide location and specifics of action. She just thinks "Sue. Mindblast". Sue is the one who has to go through all the "bubble around head. airtight. squeeze" steps. Emma just goes BLAST and that's that.

no ur not being objective at all. Sue could have done the same thing. Could have done more than just put up a field to stop the Thing. But when it came down to emma vs IW what happened?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Really now? For numerous pages (including in this thread) X4 is used as an example of Emma being slower than Sue (when looking at it objectively it shows no such thing) and now suddenly it's not relevant since it shows Emma in a more favourable light.

I never said it wasn't relevant. Favourable? Yes sure.

Coming out of nowhere while they're all distracted by someone else is obviously the way of a true champion. Doesn't remove from the fact that the scoreboard tells a different tale does it?

-AC

exactly...I bet emma could beat Sue if she attacked her in her sleep too.

Originally posted by Wynndar
no ur not being objective at all. Sue could have done the same thing. Could have done more than just put up a field to stop the Thing. But when it came down to emma vs IW what happened?

Nothing, because there was no IW vs. Emma. There was only IW attacking Emma.

And Sue couldn't have done the same thing for reasons you yourself just explained. Sue DECIDES the attack, she SELECTS the details about where the field goes, how big it is, what it's supposed to do (movements, vibrations, etc.). Those things take time to decide. That time can be measured in miliseconds, yes, but it only takes miliseconds to put Sue down, and that's why we're being so specific in a quickdraw. Quickdraws are measured in miliseconds.

Emma vs IW has never occurred. In the picture that I posted Emma was not even trying to hurt anyone - all she was doing was getting their attention. Sue managed to attack someone who was supposed to be her ally, when Emma was trying to convince her that people needed to die. It's colloquially called a sucker punch.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Emma vs IW has never occurred. In the picture that I posted Emma was not even trying to hurt anyone - all she was doing was getting their attention. Sue managed to attack someone who was supposed to be her ally, when Emma was trying to convince her that people needed to die. It's colloquially called a sucker punch.

Which makes it a.....

sucker punch

The process for emma to attack requires the same steps as IW's attacks

No it doesn't. Last I checked, telepaths don't have to decide sizes and shapes and locations for telling someone's mind to turn off.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
She resisted it because it's in her power to resist it. Why do so many people pussy out and call it a plot device?

Not answering my question, I said where is there proof as to why its there now, is it there now, if it is why has she suffered a "headache".

I don't care about the stipulations then, its right here right now....


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're counting steps pointlessly then. Coz even Emma has to go through steps in that case.
Man, I said that on the first page, I just think emma doesnt' go through one, that sue needs.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
True, but I don't understand this constant assumption that Emma can operate in the fractions of seconds Sue does.

Speed of thought, say it with me, all of them go at the same speed, just one has less steps, if you heard that, it wasn't from me.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'd like to see the scientific proof that you're comparing Sue's powers to. Just curious as to how you measured her speed. Speed of thought, its the exact same thing, I don't understand what I've been saying that has misguided thou.



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Not for me. I touch type.

which requires thought, but its VERY easy correct?

Like emma and sue, but one is just a step easier.



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes. Not a hard task unless you're handicapped is it?
OF course not, did I say "sue would have difficulty doing so"

It takes a step, and time, milliseconds, milliseconds that are in this match.

Yes or no?


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You've gone off on so many tangents, I don't even know what you're referring to any more. What does it matter? LEVEL of attack? I swear you're just randomly hitting your keyboard with a hammer and seeing what comes out.

I sure am, my point was where was this attack going, how intense,etc.

All of these are things sue thinks of, she's not cyclops with no visor.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Sue isn't going to specifically aim is she? It's not like holding a gun and having to aim it. It's a very general aim that doesn't need to be pinpointed as much. Aim nonetheless.

Which takes thought, which takes time, milliseconds, milliseconds used in this match.

Yes or no?



Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yeah I see. That's only if you're clutching at straws though. Oh wait...

Which also takes time...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yeah. That whole millisecond....whatever dude. You're being so unbelievably irrational. You've specified this battle so much that it's come down to milliseconds.
How is it, how long does it take to think of something.

Am I being unfair, should I leave?

Thats ben of the doubt, quickdraws didn't last seconds and they were with guns, telepathy/ fields, should be quicker.

Thats just the way it is.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Trading vices then. You still have the same amount of steps. Just a different step to mine. You're basing your WHOLE arguement around this pointless steps bullshit that I don't have ANY clue where you retrieved it from.
Okay, we are getting somewhere.

You now believe this is a tie instead? Please tell me why then, so we can make progress.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
As is Sue, glad we could clear that up for the millionth time.
Did I disagree?

Why do we always agree but disagree?

I said number of steps, not priority of thought.

What does emma have to conjure?

Conjuration of the field is immediate, but is the thought immediate.

No, unless its a reflex, no need to rehash.


Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Because you're adding it by assuming what she's gonna do and clinging to the fact that Emma will beat Susan Storm-Richards in milliseconds. Bit fake isn't it? Let's be honest.

one would beat the other in milliseconds, I don't see what I've said wrong.

Are you asking me if its fake, what do you want me to tell you?

Have you EVER seen a quickdraw?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes? So? Point being?

Also, the lack of originality here is appalling. Just thought I'd say that.

Xmarks, no offence, but that would be like me posting an F4 comic where the X-Men got whooped. Though realistic, you'd surely claim bias.

That telepaths can be sneaked upon, which doesn't matter here, JUST like the x4 scene.

Goodnight Ac

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/anticryste/emma2.jpg
A few things to note:
1. Emma and Sue are only about a foot apart.
2. Emma and Sue are meant to be allies
3. Thus Emma is hesitant to do anything to Sue but is mid-sentence explaining to Sue that she will if Sue does not calm herself.
4. Sue's forcefield projects from Sue at a certain velocity and acceleration to strike Emma sending her flying backwards. It is by no means an instantaneous attack.
5. Emma Frost is not Spider-Man or Destiny she does not have precognition refer to 2.
6. Emma Frost does not read everyone's mind all the time - if she did it would drive her insane, also refer to 2.
7. Emma Frost can use telepathy in diamond form - if she was in diamond form that blast would have done nothing to her.

In telepathy thoughts and actions are one and the same - cause is effect. Sue may control her power mentally but the effect is still physical - Storm can call lightning down from the sky with a thought but it still takes time for the lightning to travel.

I gotta love Emma Frost. She's the one of the far and between comic book characters with SENSE.

hallelujah!!!!

An invisible battering ram is only one option of Sue's. If sue simply wants to make a field inside emma's head then the process is practically the same as emma's TP attack. Like I explained earlier, she doesn't have to actively think of where the bubble is located. Just as she made the Earth invisible or Terrax's city sized field visible...she isn't spatially orientating the position of her fields just like a telepath.

And in the scan, It makes more sense that that field already existed. In a combat environment she keeps a field around her skin just as a precaution. This has even been demonstrated when she is in a safe environment like home. This example could simply be her expanding that already existent field.

It can't though wy, just hear me out.

It has velocity correct?

What does velocity equate to?

speed x direction.
what does speed equate to?

distance x time, they come out fast, but not at an instant, so that makes it even worse, than before.

Glad you posted that first scan, X. It shows that not only is Sue NOT immune to TP, but she's also vulnerable to it through a shield.

It's been stated that TPs spend most of their time blocking thoughts, not reading them. Whatever Sue was thinking, Emma had no reason at that point to be reading her mind. I can't recall any instance where she has violated the mind of an ally.

I think that Emma would come out on top, because whatever Sue decides to do to Emma will involve an object of some sort. It has to be made. Regardless of a bubble closing or expanding or a column to the chest, it must be created before it can do any damage. There must be the decision to make an object, then a decision to use it. Emma has no issue.

As with the "invisible battering ram" Sue's powers may be invisible to the characters but to the reader they aren't. That field was created and projected. Telepaths don't need to be spatially oriented their realm is mental not physical. Sue's power is physical - to do anything she has to decide trajectories, locations etc. She has to decide what to create, where to create it, create it, decide what to do with it once created and do so i.e. slower than telepathy.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Not answering my question, I said where is there proof as to why its there now, is it there now, if it is why has she suffered a "headache".

I don't care about the stipulations then, its right here right now....

She has the ability, true? Yes. Will it work here or not, I have no idea. If it doesn't she's at a disadvantage.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Speed of thought, say it with me, all of them go at the same speed, just one has less steps, if you heard that, it wasn't from me.


Speed of thought, its the exact same thing, I don't understand what I've been saying that has misguided thou.

I see what you're saying now, and it proves my point. YOU are saying that Emma just thinks and it happens, whilst Sue thinks...then makes the bubble....then it happens? Right. I see what you mean. And if that were the case, Sue would be screwed.

However, THAT is Sue's power. As soon as she thinks it, it happens. Just like when, say, Jean wants to lift a book. She wills it in the air. Sue wills a bubble around. It's the same.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
which requires thought, but its VERY easy correct?

No. I don't give any thought to my keyboard. I've been on the phone and typing IMs at the same time before. I don't sit here and pay attention to it.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Like emma and sue, but one is just a step easier.

I've said my piece above on the steps thing.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
OF course not, did I say "sue would have difficulty doing so"

It takes a step, and time, milliseconds, milliseconds that are in this match.

Yes or no?

See my steps part. Because I'd only be saying the same thing here.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
ben of the doubt, quickdraws didn't last seconds and they were with guns, telepathy/ fields, should be quicker.

Exactly. You're whole arguement is founded around Sue having an extra step. That's it. You're not accepting that she does things as fast as Emma.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
You now believe this is a tie instead? Please tell me why then, so we can make progress.

I don't believe it's a tie. I believe it's a case of whoever gets the first hit. I'm not saying Emma won't win. I'm just not saying Sue will lose. Because I for one, don't believe what you all seem to agree to. With good reason, regardless of if you disagree or not.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
telepaths can be sneaked upon, which doesn't matter here, JUST like the x4 scene.

Goodnight Ac

Exactly, who suggested sneaking up?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
1. Emma and Sue are only about a foot apart.
2. Emma and Sue are meant to be allies
3. Thus Emma is hesitant to do anything to Sue but is mid-sentence explaining to Sue that she will if Sue does not calm herself.
4. Sue's forcefield projects from Sue at a certain velocity and acceleration to strike Emma sending her flying backwards. It is by no means an instantaneous attack.
5. Emma Frost is not Spider-Man or Destiny she does not have precognition refer to 2.
6. Emma Frost does not read everyone's mind all the time - if she did it would drive her insane, also refer to 2.
7. Emma Frost can use telepathy in diamond form - if she was in diamond form that blast would have done nothing to her.

1. Point? That's the specifications of the thread also. That they're face to face.
2. Not Sue's problem. Since when did Emma become a pillar of morals? She's backstabbed her share of people.
3. Exactly. Emma is saying she'll use force if Sue doesn't calm down. We saw what Sue thought of that, didn't we?
4. Right. What was the result of it?
5. She's a telepath. Sue had to turn around and strike. If what all of you say is true, it takes time blah blah blah. Emma should have had that more than scouted.
6. That's very speculatory.
7. If is a lovely word.

Demigawd, I believe you asked where she used force. She's not using a bubble and I do believe Emma is being knocked base over apex.

-AC

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
It can't though wy, just hear me out.

It has velocity correct?

What does velocity equate to?

speed x direction.
what does speed equate to?

distance x time, they come out fast, but not at an instant, so that makes it even worse, than before.
Uggghhhh....Her powers can manifest thmselves in different ways. They are not always moving objects...some times they simply exist where she wants them. Like i said, its not ike her field moved around the entire earth, or peoples heads when she cuts off their air, or when she made Terrax's energies visible. Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Glad you posted that first scan, X. It shows that not only is Sue NOT immune to TP, but she's also vulnerable to it through a shield.

It's been stated that TPs spend most of their time blocking thoughts, not reading them. Whatever Sue was thinking, Emma had no reason at that point to be reading her mind. I can't recall any instance where she has violated the mind of an ally.

I think that Emma would come out on top, because whatever Sue decides to do to Emma will involve an object of some sort. It has to be made. Regardless of a bubble closing or expanding or a column to the chest, it must be created before it can do any damage. There must be the decision to make an object, then a decision to use it. Emma has no issue.

Her powers are not always objects. And her fields are not all the same or one dimensional. Hey force-field can serve different purposes, specifically resistant or unresistant to certain stimuli and spectrums. Her powers have more depth than you assume.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
1. Point? That's the specifications of the thread also. That they're face to face.
2. Not Sue's problem. Since when did Emma become a pillar of morals? She's backstabbed her share of people.
3. Exactly. Emma is saying she'll use force if Sue doesn't calm down. We saw what Sue thought of that, didn't we?
4. Right. What was the result of it?
5. She's a telepath. Sue had to turn around and strike. If what all of you say is true, it takes time blah blah blah. Emma should have had that more than scouted.
6. That's very speculatory.
7. If is a lovely word.
1. If you'd read the specifications of the thread you'd know that they are 10 feet apart. Though you tend to disregard the specifications if they don't work in your favour so this comes as no surprise.
7. Another thing that Emma does faster than Sue can attack is transform to diamond form.
None of your other points actually added anything valid enough for it to be necessary for me to respond to them.

And you tend to disregard numbers 2 to 6. But I'm sure that's irrelevant .

You are continually claiming with some kind of scientific validity, the specifics of both powers. How? Victor asked you this before and we discovered that it's bound by heavy speculation. So please, indulge me.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
And you tend to disregard numbers 2 to 6. But I'm sure that's irrelevant .

You are continually claiming with some kind of scientific validity, the specifics of both powers. How? Victor asked you this before and we discovered that it's bound by heavy speculation. So please, indulge me.

-AC
Please. Clever wordplay won't work on me - I'm not stormfront. You disregard the circumstances of the scan and this thread in your responses - there was nothing of value in 2-6 to respond to.
Sue's powers are mentally controlled but physically exerted. Telepathy is mentally controlled and exerted simultaneously.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You disregard the circumstances of the scan and this thread in your responses - there was nothing of value in 2-6 to respond to.

I don't. I acknowledged the scans and when you tried insisting I didn't believe they were relevant, I said they may very well be. I just questioned this "favourable" position that they supposedly put Emma in.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Sue's powers are mentally controlled but physically exerted. Telepathy is mentally controlled and exerted simultaneously.

Is it physically exerted? OR....or.....is it just a tangible manifestation as a result of psionic ability?

-AC

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Please. Clever wordplay won't work on me - I'm not stormfront. You disregard the circumstances of the scan and this thread in your responses - there was nothing of value in 2-6 to respond to.
Sue's powers are mentally controlled but physically exerted. Telepathy is mentally controlled and exerted simultaneously.

Again, you dont grasp her power. Explain how the physical manifestation of Sue's power is different from emma's.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I don't. I acknowledged the scans and when you tried insisting I didn't believe they were relevant, I said they may very well be. I just questioned this "favourable" position that they supposedly put Emma in.
If you had read my post properly you would have realised my notes were in reference to the second scan explaining the circumstances under which Emma was knocked out by Sue since for numerous pages in numerous threads that one encounter has been cited as an example of Sue being faster than Emma. Say it with me: Sucker punch.
The earlier scan is Emma catching Sue and everyone else on the battlefield unawares. The latter is Sue catching Emma unaware - although no one seems to be acknowledging that on the Sue side.
None of your responses 2-6 were relevant to the situation at hand.
2. They are not allies in this fight
3. Emma is not hesitant in this fight.
4. Sue hit Emma. However they are not as close here, also refer to 2 & 3.
5. Telepaths are not precogs.
6. No it's not speculatory - it's general consensus, and if I recall often stated.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Is it physically exerted? OR....or.....is it just a tangible manifestation as a result of psionic ability?

-AC
In other words a physical manifestation under mental control - she produces a force which is under mental manipulation and they are projections - they originate and are projected from her own body.

U assume they all originate from her body. TP originates from Emma's body! IW's powers originate in another dimension and are just as abstract as TP.

Sue's powers are effectuated physically. Emma's are not. In telepathy thought is action - not so for Sue's offensive abilities. As already stated ad nauseum Sue simply has more steps.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
If you had read my post properly you would have realised my notes were in reference to the second scan explaining the circumstances under which Emma was knocked out by Sue since for numerous pages in numerous threads that one encounter has been cited as an example of Sue being faster than Emma. Say it with me: Sucker punch.
The earlier scan is Emma catching Sue and everyone else on the battlefield unawares. The latter is Sue catching Emma unaware - although no one seems to be acknowledging that on the Sue side.
None of your responses 2-6 were relevant to the situation at hand.
2. They are not allies in this fight
3. Emma is not hesitant in this fight.
4. Sue hit Emma. However they are not as close here, also refer to 2 & 3.
5. Telepaths are not precogs.
6. No it's not speculatory - it's general consensus, and if I recall often stated.

2. They're clearly not allies there, in the true sense.
3. Yes, nor is Sue.
4. Yes because you measure their distance in the comic. Sure they're a bit further apart. 10 feet isn't huge. Sue knocked her about 10 feet.
5. They read minds, do they not? Then she could very well have read the "I'm gonna turn and attack".
6. General consensus based on speculation.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
In other words a physical manifestation under mental control - she produces a force which is under mental manipulation and they are projections - they originate and are projected from her own body.

They don't originate from her body though, firstly. She creates them and psionically manipulates them. They're not physical.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Demigawd, I believe you asked where she used force. She's not using a bubble and I do believe Emma is being knocked base over apex.


Looked like a curved round object to me. And one that travels, too. Extra step.

I think we can all pretty much stop here. The arguments are getting circular, and nobody has really brought anything outside of their core points to the table since page four or so (though the scans were DEFINITELY helpful). I'll leave it here for the rest board to decide (polls don't look good for Sue).

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Sue's powers are effectuated physically. Emma's are not. In telepathy thought is action - not so for Sue's offensive abilities. As already stated ad nauseum Sue simply has more steps.

Uh are you serious? Is the brain not a physical location?

Brain is physical. Mind is not.

Originally posted by demigawd
Looked like a curved round object to me. And one that travels, too. Extra step.

I think we can all pretty much stop here. The arguments are getting circular, and nobody has really brought anything outside of their core points to the table since page four or so (though the scans were DEFINITELY helpful). I'll leave it here for the rest board to decide (polls don't look good for Sue).

Firstly, polls don't exactly mean anything. Anyone can click and point.

Second, the scans just added more opinion to the mix, no...don't claw at the monitor and claim I'm disregarding them, I'm not.

The curved round object is quite obviously there to show the powers, not neccessarily saying that's what she just created. Either way, it's force. It's not a bubble, or a shield. She's extending her arm and producing force.

-AC

Originally posted by Wynndar
Uh are you serious? Is the brain not a physical location? One that's already decided, telepaths tend to be one trick ponies with what they can attack.

Originally posted by demigawd
polls don't look good for Sue. Polls are ad populem arguments. They are the opinions of the majority, which doesn't translate to fact.

Originally posted by demigawd
Brain is physical. Mind is not.

the mind is physical...the soul is not. Thus a person's mind can be affected by physical means, ie chemical imbalance, physical trauma, etc.

It's not just force, it's like anything else she produces. She still has to think, "make invisible object yay high, project at yay speed". two extra steps in this case, plus the time it actually takes to project at yay speed.

Emma: Sue. Off.

Originally posted by Wynndar
the mind is physical...the soul is not. Thus a person's mind can be affected by physical means, ie chemical imbalance, physical trauma, etc. Its actually the brain that is effected, not the mind.

and in comics the soul can be removed.

Originally posted by Wynndar
the mind is physical...the soul is not. Thus a person's mind can be affected by physical means, ie chemical imbalance, physical trauma, etc.

Problems with the brain can affect the mind, but the mind isn't a physical thing. The mind is consciousness...your mental being. It's the other aspect of the soul. As for the *actual* source of mental energy (in comics)? The Astral Plane, where all minds are interconnected. So the "off" command is instant, since all mind are interconnected on the Astral Plane.

Which is why latency after initial thought is irrelevant and for all intents and purposes zero when it comes to telepathy. Thought and action occur simultaneously. Cause and effect are one.

Originally posted by demigawd
It's not just force, it's like anything else she produces. She still has to think, "make invisible object yay high, project at yay speed". two extra steps in this case, plus the time it actually takes to project at yay speed.

Emma: Sue. Off.

The difference between you and I is that you seem to have some scientifically measured back up as to how fast Sue reacts.

That, or you're assuming that these steps are the deciding factor if they even exist.

But I'm sure it's the former.

X: Cause isn't one with effect. Cause is event, effect if result.

-AC

Wordplay again?
Cause: A basis for an action or response i.e. thought producing mindblast or thoughts creating invisible battering ram.
Effect: Something brought about by a cause or agent i.e. mindblast or striking opponent with invisible battering ram.
Cause and effect occur simultaneously for Emma they do not for Sue because there are additional steps in between.

Originally posted by demigawd
Character thinks something
Emma: Oh, that's disgusting!
Character: Stay out of my thoughts!
Emma: I was, but you were positively screaming it!
I beleive it was either Banshee or Iceman. . .

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Wordplay again?
Cause: A basis for an action or response i.e. thought producing mindblast or thoughts creating invisible battering ram.
Effect: Something brought about by a cause or agent i.e. mindblast or striking opponent with invisible battering ram.
Cause and effect occur simultaneously for Emma they do not for Sue because there are additional steps in between.

Yes so you described the nature of telepathy.

Go on.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes so you described the nature of telepathy.
And in doing so explained why it is faster than IW's attack - what more is there to go on about?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
And in doing so explained why it is faster than IW's attack - what more is there to go on about?

The fact that the cause and effect gap between Sue and Emma is there, doesn't mean it will be a deciding factor.

It's milliseconds, possibly less.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The fact that the cause and effect gap between Sue and Emma is there, doesn't mean it will be a deciding factor.
It's milliseconds, possibly less.
-AC
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
If emma and sue are facing 10 feet away from each other, what attack will come first in your opinion. Sue's field, or emma's mindwipe/blast.
Discuss and debate...

So, we're going by miliseconds now?

Seriously?

It's as close to equal as possible....the only difference is IW has shown some slight resistance to mental attacks but Emma hasn't shown any resistance to physical attacks. (unless she's in diamond form.)

So, adding that and the picosecond it takes for the mental assault to take hold and the half picosecond for the mental pain to register and the milisecond for.....blah blah blah blah....EQUAL.

Originally posted by long pig
So, we're going by miliseconds now?
Seriously?
It's as close to equal as possible....the only difference is IW has shown some slight resistance to mental attacks but Emma hasn't shown any resistance to physical attacks. (unless she's in diamond form.)
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/anticryste/emma1.jpg
Earlier on it was argued that all the FF were telepathically immune. Then resistant. Then it was whittled down to just Sue being resistant. Could I know the context of Sue's telepathic resistance and whether it involved any devices, plot or otherwise.