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Which SW military would win in a starfleet only battle?
Note that Jedi, while allowed to assist (Battlemeditation, etc), they can't directly or indirectly (blow up a star or something) attack the enemy. My money is on the empire.

i'd go with the clone armies in all the episodes 2-6

Yuuzhan Vong. I mean one Uro-Ik V'alh Battleship is more than a match for the Deathstar.

i agree but the empires fleet could take down the ship the have the biggest star fleet the galaxy had ever seen and the death star only worsens it though the battle ship is more than enough to death with the deathstar

I wouldn't, their generals aren't good enough.. Now you would need a military mastermind, preferably with Battle Meditation on his side. Thrawn would probably be good. As would Revan, unfortunally he lacks battle meditation, or at least at a large enough scale to impact wars. I have no idea on the rest however.

Infinite Empire would probably do really good as well.

What is the Infinite Empire? I have heard they're awesome.

yes but the Galactic empire would fair better because the can keep cloning pilots and gunners and all that

Against a billion force users? Those clones would be extremely lucky when they shoot somebody down.

force users i was talking about the infinate empire

As am I.

they use the force???

Yeah... They did control the STar Forge afterall, they used the force to do that. The Rakatan computers describe their ships as one's that are powered by the force, and the Empire failed when they lost their connection to the force. At its height the Rakatan Empire would have been incredible... and an enemy worth facing.

ohhh then Ratakan's will win

Either the Infinite Empire, or Revan's Sith.

What is this super-Yuuzhan Vong ship I keep hearing aobut that could supposedly take the deathstar?

The Yuuzhan Vong feared the Empire - for a reason. The Vong never tried to tackle the Empire when they were at their full strength.

The Death Star would destroy the Star Forge. Thrawn has as much tactical ability as Revan.

The Empire wins, with heavy casulaties.

A billion force users? Come on now. Let's not over do it. The Star Forge produced ships and droids but the Empire could have endless clones.

Originally posted by ESB-1138
A billion force users? Come on now. Let's not over do it. The Star Forge produced ships and droids but the Empire could have endless clones.

First, endless clones does not beat endless ships run by force users. Second, Death Star would be destroyed before it came anywhere near the Star Forge, third, a attack on the Star Forge would be suicide, cuz of it's magnetic field.

What would destroy the DeathStar? It won't have to get close to the StarForge.

Originally posted by ESB-1138
What would destroy the DeathStar? It won't have to get close to the StarForge.

Billions of force users piloting ships run by the force. That would destroy it.

The Galactic Empire at its peak was projected to have over two hundred thousand star destroyers of various kinds. Let's throw in a death star, have thrawn in charge, and a nearly limitless, fast way of creating soldiers. If Thrawn goes ysalamari crazy like he normally does, that cripples the Infinite Empire.

Sheer numbers ought to win it for them

If your referring to the fact the Rebels destroyed the DeathStar you need to rethink that. They knew how to destroy it because they had the DeathStar plans. The IE wouldn't know about that weakness.

1. The Death Star has access to more immediate firepower than the Star Forge can ever access. It has it's fleets. But, we know that they all are not instant - and that it takes time to amass a fleet from the Forge. In the meantime, you have the Imperial Starfleet - which is immensely powerful and talented.

2. The Death Star won't have to get too close. The Star Forge has shown nothing that can inhibit the Death Star's laser - which is powerful enough to destroy a planet.

The Star Forge goes down - along with anyone on board.

Originally posted by ESB-1138
If your referring to the fact the Rebels destroyed the DeathStar you need to rethink that. They knew how to destroy it because they had the DeathStar plans. The IE wouldn't know about that weakness.
THEY HAVE THE FORCE. They can asess the weaknesses quite easily.

Galactic Empire has this in the bag.

Originally posted by ResubianNushi
THEY HAVE THE FORCE. They can asess the weaknesses quite easily.
Can you prove that?

Originally posted by ESB-1138
Can you prove that?

KOTOR. Common Sense. If the Star Forge needs the force to work it, therefor the people who use it need the force.

I say it again...ysalamari=no force. Thrawn has access to ysalamari. No more force.

He's not gonna have a few million ysalamari, which would be necessary to cloak a damn fleet.

Ysalamari have only a range of 1 meter or something for thier anti-force thing to be effective.

Originally posted by ResubianNushi
KOTOR. Common Sense. If the Star Forge needs the force to work it, therefor the people who use it need the force.
And that helps them learn the DeathStar's weakness how?

who ever has yoda will win, cos he never loses he is to good

Originally posted by Jaster Mereel
Ysalamari have only a range of 1 meter or something for thier anti-force thing to be effective.

Completely wrong. Each ysalamari, yes, a meter, but when they're bunched together, their range adds up. I think Luke was 10 kilometers from them and he was still feeling their affects.

10k is nothing in space. The only time you'l be getting that type of range is a Battle of Coruscent(sp) situation, when you just hyperspaced INTO someone else's fleet.

Trawn had about 2000 Ysalamari in the Thrawn Triliogy and it went a lot farther than that.

Yeah. . . 2000 Ysalamari for a fleet of 200,000 Star Destroyers? Don't think so. You'd have to bunch the fleet up so tight you'd lose half of itto collisions in 'Force-cloaked' transportation.

Agreed. This is all really stupid. Point is, the Infinite Empire under the Ratakan numbered billions of Ratakan and easily ten times that in slaves from various planets. They could probably field more troops and ships than anyone in existance, enough to take out the Galactic Empire, with the Death Star and possibly Thrawn in tow. If you can field x amount of troops, x being whatever the **** you feel like, then how can someone with y amount of troops, y being fixed and can only go down, possibly win the long and drawn out battle that is to come? Hell, you don't even have to man Ratakan ships- just set them with hasty coordinates and launch them. The Death Star can shoot a beam about perhaps a third or so the size of a planet, with a ridiculous recharge time, and no one here knows the ammo count on that thing. If it shoots more than four of those blasts, it's ridiculous. Point being, you couldn't knock out the Infinite Fleet with Death Star blasts, nor could you put them out with a few creatures either. That's grasping at straws. And lastly, there's no conceivable way the Death Star could get within range to blow up the Infinite Empire without having half a million ships on its ass. Consider how close the Death Star had to be to Yavin to even prepare for an attack. It took a half an hour to get within range, during which time the rebels scrambled enough fighters to effectively destroy it. Now imagine even a squadron of Force sensitive snub fighters. The chance of the Death Star getting 'shafted' just grew a whole hell of a lot.

The Galactic Empire's pwned. . .

Well, to be fair, it wouldn't be an easy battle, especially with Thrawn. But it would lead to the Empire's demise, since their resources are limited. In fixed numbers and depending on how much per side, the Ratakan ships are actually smaller and inferior (though how much is another debate) to OT era Imperial ships. Personally, I like the looks of Imperial ships better. Actually, I think the whole way the empire was made to look kicks ass.

Yeah but what does that matter?

Give a force user a weaker fighter and he could still take out many superior fighters. These guys were damn force users, yeah their capitol ships couldn't easily take out imperial capitol ships. But the Rakatan could easily create 10x as much ships as the Empire could ever dream off. Imagine a few droids in those and set for ramming speed, the Empire would go down and pray for mercy as the first load of droids hits.

They don't even need to know the weakness of the Death Star a 100 ships crashing on it would be effective as well. Also you have to remember are incredibly smart i'm sure they would adopt their technology to that of the Empire, and its obvious that the Star Forge can create other kinds of ships, so if they capture a Star Destroyer or a SSD (which probably wouldn't be to hard) They could start creating those things.

And I'm not so sure if the Rakatan capitol ships are weaker now that I think of it, the ships Revan used were not those that were originally created by the Star Forge during the height of the Rakatan Empire. After all the ships Revan used were not powered by the force, so it had been changed. How much more powerful would those ships have been if they would have been powered by the force? Imagine the power of one ship powered by god knows how many force users.

Then you have the ground battles, there is just no way the Empire could ever win a ground battle when you are facing a shit load of force users. Nobody could ever pull it off. The only one's that stand a chance against the Infinite Empire are the Ancient Sith, and then only because Ragnos can probably blow hundreds of them away and Sadow can start throwing stars.

And even then we don't know the power the Rakatan wield, but its probably pretty good because they had practiced for a very long time and had many years of training. So all in all, the Infinite Empire would slaughter pretty much everybody with the possible exception of Ragnos and his Sith.

Actually, the Leviathn is a Ratakan made ship. It's significantly smaller then a Star Destroyer. Also, in order to glass a planet, an Imperial fleet needed perhaps less then ten capital ships (no more than fifteen tops... I need to reread the Hutt's Gambit) to glass Nar Shadaa, killing all life. The Leviathan and its similar capital ships needed several hours to properly position themselves, and even then the bombardment came from a swarm of ships. As shown in the FMV, the turbolasers of the Leviathan, while powerful, did relatively light damage to the homes of Taris compared to the might of some of the larger capital ships in the times of the Empire.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Actually, the Leviathn is a Ratakan made ship. It's significantly smaller then a Star Destroyer. Also, in order to glass a planet, an Imperial fleet needed perhaps less then ten capital ships (no more than fifteen tops... I need to reread the Hutt's Gambit) to glass Nar Shadaa, killing all life. The Leviathan and its similar capital ships needed several hours to properly position themselves, and even then the bombardment came from a swarm of ships. As shown in the FMV, the turbolasers of the Leviathan, while powerful, did relatively light damage to the homes of Taris compared to the might of some of the larger capital ships in the times of the Empire.

Did it?

Think about it, it was Saul Karath his capitol ship, apparantly Carth knew about it and Saul used it to bomb Telos to the ground. Now that could mean he got a new capitol ship that day or that he already had his ship and that it was made by the Republic.

This is a reasonable assumption seeing as the ship Nihilus has was also at the battle of Malachor and looks like a Star Forge ship, yet still somehow the ship could not have been created by the Star Forge because they didn't have acces to the Star Forge just yet.

Personally I think Revan put the building plans to the greatest ship of his time in the Star Forge and made it create ships like that, more powerful then the Republic ships and they did not need to be powered by the force like the Rakatan ships.

No, I think you're wrong there. For one thing, the Ravager looked nothing like the Leviathan. It was noticeably bigger, and more shaped like a Star Destroyer than anything. It's also ripped from the ruins of Malachor V, but correct me if I'm wrong- it never says it's a Star Forge ship or a Republic ship. Considering that the Ravager looks NOTHING like the Republic ships in both games, either it's made by a different company, it's an older/newer model, or it's a Mandalorian ship. There is nothing to indicate that it's from the Star Forge.

As for the Leviathan, however, it is shaped like a curved lobster's left claw, and is definately alien in appearance. Star Forge ships are spoken of as being remarkably alien like, and with no markings to bear a maker. So why would Malak run with a ship that -wasn't- made on the Star Forge? And why would he have a small ship, when you consider that he found the Ebon Hawk alone in the Leviathan and captured them. The Sith fleet wasn't around. So it makes no sense that the Leviathan would be anything other than a capital ship made by the Star Forge. There is absolutely no evidence to indicate otherwise.

Empire takes this. An overabundace of capital ships (30,000 ISDs alone), well trained crews and super weapons (the death star wasnt' the most powerful they had), as well as tactical geniuses (Thrawn anyone?) and a VERY motivated personnel base (flying into asteroid fields?) mean that the Empire finally wins a meaningful victory.

Originally posted by Gryn Jabar
Empire takes this. An overabundace of capital ships (30,000 ISDs alone), well trained crews and super weapons (the death star wasnt' the most powerful they had), as well as tactical geniuses (Thrawn anyone?) and a VERY motivated personnel base (flying into asteroid fields?) mean that the Empire finally wins a meaningful victory.

Do you completely ignore all our other posts on purpose or did you just forget to read it?

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
No, I think you're wrong there. For one thing, the Ravager looked nothing like the Leviathan. It was noticeably bigger, and more shaped like a Star Destroyer than anything. It's also ripped from the ruins of Malachor V, but correct me if I'm wrong- it never says it's a Star Forge ship or a Republic ship. Considering that the Ravager looks NOTHING like the Republic ships in both games, either it's made by a different company, it's an older/newer model, or it's a Mandalorian ship. There is nothing to indicate that it's from the Star Forge.

As for the Leviathan, however, it is shaped like a curved lobster's left claw, and is definately alien in appearance. Star Forge ships are spoken of as being remarkably alien like, and with no markings to bear a maker. So why would Malak run with a ship that -wasn't- made on the Star Forge? And why would he have a small ship, when you consider that he found the Ebon Hawk alone in the Leviathan and captured them. The Sith fleet wasn't around. So it makes no sense that the Leviathan would be anything other than a capital ship made by the Star Forge. There is absolutely no evidence to indicate otherwise.

That still doesn't deal with Saul Karath his flag ship, of course he could have gotten a new one, but I doubt he would have had a new ship before he proved his loyalty.

Fantasy land, Fishy. It's the escape from reality we all wanted, but only ignorant people get in for free.

Perhaps you should read the OP Fishy. Force powers only used in a supporting/auxillary role. NOT used in direct combat.

Originally posted by Fishy
That still doesn't deal with Saul Karath his flag ship, of course he could have gotten a new one, but I doubt he would have had a new ship before he proved his loyalty.

You need a good sitdown talk about Occum's Razor, my friend.

No seriously... Saul was on Malak's ship. He was his admiral. He led the navy from the control bridge on Malak's ship. The ship itself is of course infamous- it's the same ship that fired on Revan's ship (Which also had a similar bridge as in the FMV) and obviously saw some action in the constant war that was going on. So naturally anyone who's a pilot and warhero will recognize the ship. This doesn't say that it's pre-Mandalorian War. Nothing does. And the fact remains that no other Republic ship looks like Revan and Malak's flagships, nor their support capital ships. None. The ships can't be mistaken for anything else, since they are unique and are thus because of the Star Forge's designs, which are described as being alien. Unless you find me a quote where it says specifically that the Leviathan is a Republic ship, the signs point to a SF ship.

The Infinite Empire would beat the Empire by sheer numbers.

The Yuuzhan Vong would win this one dudes.

The Infinite Empire could beat the Yuuzhan Vong by numbers as well.

Agreed. At least know what you're talking about.

The Infinite Empire could just program ships with coordinates, then ram millions of ships at the Vong.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Fantasy land, Fishy. It's the escape from reality we all wanted, but only ignorant people get in for free.

I must be ignorant then cause I don't understand what you just said...

About your other post,

I can't give you a direct quote I can tell you however, that Saul his flagship bombed Telos to the ground it was the first thing he did after he left the Republic. Now of course it could have become his flagship later or he could have had another flagship or he could have just used Malak his flagship. What I do not understand however is why the hell would the Republic let in a ship that they know is hostile to them?

On the other hand, he couldn't have destroyed the planet alone so more would have jumped into the system, nevermind this point is destroyed when I think about it a little better.

Uh, that comment wasn't meant for you, Fishy.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Agreed. At least know what you're talking about. I could say the same if you! The Vong conquered the whole Galaxy and destroyed coruscant. And the infinite's empire's force powers wouldn't work. They can't sense the Vong in the Force.

You don't have to sense them. Green lightning works great. That along with vongsense. Don't forge tthat the Yuuzhan Vong were arfaid of the Imperials. The Vong didn't conquer more than a fourth of the galaxy.

Well the Vong did dismantle the empire kinda. Read crimson empire 2. And in wich timeperiod is this infinite empire anyway? In which books does it getdescribed? Seriouly, i read this thread and from what i read the Vong would own the rest.

Originally posted by Tiberius
I could say the same if you! The Vong conquered the whole Galaxy and destroyed coruscant. And the infinite's empire's force powers wouldn't work. They can't sense the Vong in the Force.

The Vong did not conquer the whole galaxy. If anything, they had to agree to a truce at one point, and they even lost many of their earlier holdings. Second, they won against a weak and totally surprised New Republic. They wouldn't have the same advantage against an Empire that predated the Old Republic, with billions upon billions of servants and soldiers, a Force using noble caste, and a factory that makes unlimited amount of ships. In their heyday, the Ratakan Empire got irked and glassed Tatooine. They could easily **** up the Vong, and they would not have the logistics problems nor the ethical problems that the New Republic and the NJO would.

As for the Infinite Empire's force powers not working, this is bullshit. Force powers still work, but they cannot affect the Vong directly. Indirectly, you can take them all down with Force powers, and considering you already have more manpower and ships and no resource problems at all, the Vong are dead. Period.

The Vong actually greatly outnumber the Rakata. The were something in the area of a billion Rakata and a trillion slaves if I remember correctly. The Yuuzhan Vong killed about 365 times that number. That is the slaves. The actual Rakata were about billion. Not even the greatest Rakata couldn't take down 365,000 Vong. Since many of these kills were probably civilian kills, lets divide this number by a thousand. That gives us 365 Yuuzhan Vong per Rakata. The Yuuzhan Vong are a warrior species. 10 Vong could take down most Rakata in my view.

yes someone with brains. But WTF is the Rakatan empire. I hope it ain't any KOTOR stuff.

Sadly Tiberius, they are. They're responsible for Tatooine being a desert world.

But in relation to this thread's topic, I'd say the Empire at it's zenith could take on everybody.

Tens of thousands of Star Destroyers, The Executor, The Death Star, and the countless numbers of lesser craft the Empire used to control the ENTIRE galaxy. They would need billions if not trillions of stormtroopers (who were brainwashed recruits, not clones) to maintain their "rule through fear of force" doctrine. With men like Palpatine, Vader, Thrawn, even Pelleaon, and Tarkin controlling their vast fleets and armies, they'd be invincible one on one.

The Empire was stated to cause the single largest military buildup the known recorded galaxy has ever seen. That includes Revan's Sith, the Rakata, Separatists, Old Republic, Clone Army, all of 'em.

The Yuuzhan Vong feared to take on the Empire, that says alot about their chances. They were no fools, militarily, they wouldn't risk annihalating their whole civilization out of pride. So they waited till the Empire declined and the New Republic was war-torn.

The Death Star, by visual comparison, appears to be larger than the Star Forge, and it seems the Star Forge didn't even have a shield, where as the DS2 had one. One shot from the Death Star, that would take like 20 seconds to fire, would totally destroy the Star Forge, despite it's abilities.

The Empire would chew up any fleet who took it on.

Thats bs, the Rakatan were not known about. The only record of them is through Revan who would not have shared the knowledge with the rest because there were a lot of unknowns.

About the vong greatly outnumbering the Rakatan? Your point being? If one of them could throw a star (which wouldn't surprise me at all) then 365 are gone easily. The pure power of the Rakatan attacks would take down many Vong capitol ships and then you have the ramming things, a thousand ships set to ram whatever the enemy sends at them is going to do a shit load of damage. Just because the Rakatan are outnumbered does not mean they will lose.

Now ground battles sure they could lose that if the Vong heavily outnumber them, but remember the Rakatan were a warrior race with technology that surpassed the Empire at many points 29.000 years before the Empire even existed. Their technology is great and powerful and I'm sure they will adopt pretty quickly to whatever comes up to them. They would probably work together well in battles and they have awesome force powers so they could do a lot of shit against the vong. And remember they will use it full out from the start. The vong simply do not stand a chance, almost nobody does except for the most powerful of force users.

The new order would win. But notwithstanding the vong are very powerfull.

Originally posted by Tiberius
yes someone with brains. But WTF is the Rakatan empire. I hope it ain't any KOTOR stuff.

Are they all pricks over where you come from, or are you just a unique specimen? Please, either learn to keep the insults at bay, or shut the **** up. It's not like you contribute more than two sentences to anything, and your knowledge is practically not enough to get by on anything that isn't the movies or after.

I read all all Eu that happens after TPM or around TPM. It was not an insult dude.

Originally posted by Fishy
Thats bs, the Rakatan were not known about. The only record of them is through Revan who would not have shared the knowledge with the rest because there were a lot of unknowns.

About the vong greatly outnumbering the Rakatan? Your point being? If one of them could throw a star (which wouldn't surprise me at all) then 365 are gone easily. The pure power of the Rakatan attacks would take down many Vong capitol ships and then you have the ramming things, a thousand ships set to ram whatever the enemy sends at them is going to do a shit load of damage. Just because the Rakatan are outnumbered does not mean they will lose.

Now ground battles sure they could lose that if the Vong heavily outnumber them, but remember the Rakatan were a warrior race with technology that surpassed the Empire at many points 29.000 years before the Empire even existed. Their technology is great and powerful and I'm sure they will adopt pretty quickly to whatever comes up to them. They would probably work together well in battles and they have awesome force powers so they could do a lot of shit against the vong. And remember they will use it full out from the start. The vong simply do not stand a chance, almost nobody does except for the most powerful of force users.

what points ot them being able to throw stars? They weren't that good. Believe me, if they were, they would have controlled MUCH more than 500 planets at their peak.

The Rakata aren't physically impressive. Revan, at only a third or so of his pre-KOTOR power, takes out either the last warrior group, the elders, or both. It was around fifty Rakata in the first two situations, and 100 in the other ones. So we know that Revan, in a weakened state, after fighting through Rakata patrols and young Rancors, was able to take another fifty. Revan is more powerful than any Yuuzhan Vong at his peak, but at this point, he is probably about equal to a slayer and FAR weaker than Shimrra. The numbers Revan killed were for gameplay purposes, but taking out some of the last of Rakata strong-holds must have meant MANY Rakata.

So the IE destroyed Tatooines terrain. Well, I am sorry to inform you that the Empire had over ten thousand ships that oculd single handedly do that same job in less than a weak. Perhaps you have forgotten that could sterolize a planet.

I just don't see how the IE could take either the Vong or the Empire.

Sorry for the double post.

I noticed that I was off in my numbers of Rakata. There were actually 10 billion. More than I had thought, but still no where near the Yuuzhan Vong.

If the IE uses the Star Forge, then history can be expected to repeat itself. It was the Star Forge that caused them to enter another civil war. They will also lose thier force abilty after a while too.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sorry for the double post.

I noticed that I was off in my numbers of Rakata. There were actually 10 billion. More than I had thought, but still no where near the Yuuzhan Vong.

If the IE uses the Star Forge, then history can be expected to repeat itself. It was the Star Forge that caused them to enter another civil war. They will also lose thier force abilty after a while too. 10 billion? What are you talking about? The computer in the bottom of the temple clearly states ONE billion Rakata.

Any empire that possesses the Star Forge should in theory be invincible.

The key statement there being "in theory."

Originally posted by Fishy
Thats bs, the Rakatan were not known about. The only record of them is through Revan who would not have shared the knowledge with the rest because there were a lot of unknowns.

About the vong greatly outnumbering the Rakatan? Your point being? If one of them could throw a star (which wouldn't surprise me at all) then 365 are gone easily. The pure power of the Rakatan attacks would take down many Vong capitol ships and then you have the ramming things, a thousand ships set to ram whatever the enemy sends at them is going to do a shit load of damage. Just because the Rakatan are outnumbered does not mean they will lose.

Now ground battles sure they could lose that if the Vong heavily outnumber them, but remember the Rakatan were a warrior race with technology that surpassed the Empire at many points 29.000 years before the Empire even existed. Their technology is great and powerful and I'm sure they will adopt pretty quickly to whatever comes up to them. They would probably work together well in battles and they have awesome force powers so they could do a lot of shit against the vong. And remember they will use it full out from the start. The vong simply do not stand a chance, almost nobody does except for the most powerful of force users. The Rakata had the Force, but it would be inaffective agains the Vong would it not?

They had only ten billion(sorry) in population at their peak, the Vong were like a 100 times that. The Empire was like 1000 times it.

They controlled 500 planets, the Empire controlled most of the freakin galaxy, and the Vong conquered half of it. There's got to be 100's of thousands of planets in the galaxy. And since we don't know anything about IE technology, so we don't know what their ships look like, we can't assume they hold more Firepower than a Star Destroyer or whatever the Vong ships were called. And by comparing against the Star Forge, the Rakatan didn't appear to know how to make shield for their ships.

I'm not saying they wouldn't put up a good fight, but they just wouldn't win. The Empire and Vong would overwhelm them with sheer numbers. The Empire would blow up their Homeworld or any Rakatan world just to be sure. The Vong would probably attack en Masse and terraform the planet. It's all about demoralising the enemy. Capture the home planet and the enemy will lose heart. It's just the Sort of thing the Empire would do, and the Vong did the same thing to Coruscant.

Plus the Empire had almost 50 000 years of technology ahead of them.

Even though we are going for the same thing, Tangigible_god, you don't appear to know what your talking about.

The Rakata did control 500 planets at their peak, but the Galatic Empire controlled abour a million at its peak. The GE didn't have most of the Galaxy, they had less than half. The Vong got less than half of that.

You said the Vong were a hundred times that. Incorrect. They were 36.5 thousnd times that.

We also can't assume that they had less then the Empire. But we can infer it. From that Tatooine legend, it apperas that it took a large amount of time for the to destroy Tatooine. A Star Destroyer is able to do it in less than a weak.

I thought you said we don't know anything about their ships? Then how do you know they don't have sheids?

50,000 years? Please check your facts. The Rakata are thought to have gone back as far as 48,000 years(thought, as in speculation) to 28,000 years. The IE also didn't peak in their very beginning. It was probably within 35,000 B.B.Y.


I know I just argued against my case, but I can't let you go spouting crap, even if it helps the side I'm on.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Even though we are going for the same thing, Tangigible_god, you don't appear to know what your talking about.

The Rakata did control 500 planets at their peak, but the Galatic Empire controlled abour a million at its peak. The GE didn't have most of the Galaxy, they had less than half. The Vong got less than half of that.

You said the Vong were a hundred times that. Incorrect. They were 36.5 thousnd times that.

We also can't assume that they had less then the Empire. But we can infer it. From that Tatooine legend, it apperas that it took a large amount of time for the to destroy Tatooine. A Star Destroyer is able to do it in less than a weak.

I thought you said we don't know anything about their ships? Then how do you know they don't have sheids?

50,000 years? Please check your facts. The Rakata are thought to have gone back as far as 48,000 years(thought, as in speculation) to 28,000 years. The IE also didn't peak in their very beginning. It was probably within 35,000 B.B.Y.


I know I just argued against my case, but I can't let you go spouting crap, even if it helps the side I'm on. (groans) I was clearly exaggerating the numbers.

And the Empire controlled from Bakura to that planet across the galaxy that for the love of me I can't remember the name of. We can say that they controlled more than half, but not wuite all. The Vong got quite a bit too.

And the IE began 50 000 years B.B.Y., and ended apparently a millenium or two prior two the Republic's founding about, what? 25 000 B.B.Y. Plus the IE had, I don't know for how long, a civil war. In any case, you know where I'm going with this. Still alot of Millenia between.

And in case you didn't notice, I was SUPPORTING the Empire. And the Vong to an extent. I said NOTHING about the IE glassifying Tatooine, but I know, and I agree with you that a Star Destroyer could do it in a day. Again, you'll notice that I was BOOSTING support for a SD.

And if the Rakata didn't shield their most prized possesion, the Star Forge, then I think we can assume, they had no shielding.

Since this all fictional, and what we don't know we will never now until someone certifies it, all we can do is assume with theory. Theory and LOGIC for Christ's sake.

Originally posted by Tangible God


I was supporting the Empire and the Yuuzhan Vong too, incase you didn't notice. I just said you were making up a lot of crap. If you exagerate the numbers, then it all quickly becomes a steaming pile of crap.

The Star Forge was NOT a Warship. We don't out heavy armor on factories. The Rakata don't either, but you can bet they had it on their military-purpose vehicles.

If it was so special to them, and it was, and if they had shielding, why wouldn't they shield it?

I never said anything about your "crap" statement. I was pissed 'cause you made it appear that I was disagreeing with you about the Tatooine thing, and the Imperial number thing.

And I exaggerated the Vong numbers because I really don't give a flying f*ck about how many there were, I just know that there was alot, and they kicked some major New Republic ass.

NJO Luke comes in and shoots a bolt of green lightning obliberating them all! Mwahahahahaha!!!...

P.S

Hey you writers of NJO! If you ever come to these forums (doubtfull) I hope you read this. I a 15 year old teenager can write better than you people!

(ahem)

(ahem's again)

(looks around)

F*ck NJO.


Except the Vong, 'cause they killed Chewbacca and Anakin Solo.



Good for them.

Originally posted by Tangible God
(ahem)

(ahem's again)

(looks around)

F*ck NJO.


Except the Vong, 'cause they killed Chewbacca and Anakin Solo.



Good for them.

You said it. Fek them all!

Dude! Anakin was the man. I'm still pissed they killed him off....

(ten minutes later)

Oh. Chewie. I'm sorry you died too.

Ah, they were alright I guess. Chewie just pissed me off after the movies, and the Solo children's teenage anks, and their humourless philosophies about the Force could rival Luke's.

F*cking preachers.

I was pissed that they had turned Chewie into a nanny. It was better to just let him die, but he should have killed supreme commander or something in the process to at least die a good death.

Chewbacca's death was the biggest crap-job I've ever seen in my life. . .

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Chewbacca's death was the biggest crap-job I've ever seen in my life. . . That's what pissed me off about EU Chewie. Once the kids come along, Chewie and Threepio become these unpaid child caretakers. But yeah, he sould've taken someone out with him, like Anakin.

Crushed by a moon, honestly. How'd they recover it?

Heh Ancient sith empire guys. they could use sith magic and sith tools to destroy stars, fling stars and in essence play tennis with planets, that takes care of the vong's worldships and the rest of their fleet, and the IE VS Sith would be a good fight but I'm going with sith. Also, anyone who doesn't know much about star wars, I'm not talking about Vader or Sideous, they weren't real sith.

Also, Sadow + Kun could take out the Vong by themselves :P.

Good point, that no one touched on.

The Vong are pretty screwed when facing the Ancient Sith, I'd have to admit.

But of course, we have to account for plot-induced stupidity .

Originally posted by Kurik Faeli
Heh Ancient sith empire guys. they could use sith magic and sith tools to destroy stars, fling stars and in essence play tennis with planets, that takes care of the vong's worldships and the rest of their fleet, and the IE VS Sith would be a good fight but I'm going with sith. Also, anyone who doesn't know much about star wars, I'm not talking about Vader or Sideous, they weren't real sith.

Also, Sadow + Kun could take out the Vong by themselves :P. Got that one down pat.

Originally posted by Illustrious
The Vong are pretty screwed when facing the Ancient Sith, I'd have to admit.

But of course, we have to account for plot-induced stupidity .

sadow: Oops! I trusted the wrong lieutenant!

Kressh: Oops! Sadow killed me in a grudge!

Ragnos: Oops! I was already dead!

Sith Army: Hey, everyone at home's in a civil war! Pull back!

Originally posted by Lord Janus
sadow: Oops! I trusted the wrong lieutenant!

Kressh: Oops! Sadow killed me in a grudge!

Ragnos: Oops! I was already dead!

Sith Army: Hey, everyone at home's in a civil war! Pull back!

Unfortunately. The guys were so powerful, they had to screw over each other.

The issue of balance.

Yeah, it wouldn't be much of a story if the Sith obliterated the Old Republic and ruled for 10 millenia.

Although it would make some hella powerful Force users.

You already have Luke for that.

**** Luke.

He can't hang in the ring with the ancient Sith

lmfao.

Originally posted by Tangible God
If it was so special to them, and it was, and if they had shielding, why wouldn't they shield it?

I never said anything about your "crap" statement. I was pissed 'cause you made it appear that I was disagreeing with you about the Tatooine thing, and the Imperial number thing.

And I exaggerated the Vong numbers because I really don't give a flying f*ck about how many there were, I just know that there was alot, and they kicked some major New Republic ass.

I think you are forgetting about one shield.

The Rakatan had a freaking shield around the entire Star Forge that brought every ship that came near down.

Also you said something about Revan killing Rakatan? These were Rakatan without the years of experience without the countless wars and hey guess what without the force. They couldn't light a candle to a real Rakatan.

The Republic could only attack the Star Forge once Revan had disabled the shield.

I'd forgotten about that shield. Chances are, if a fleet or even a superweapon came into normal space on the opposite side of the planet, assuming they didn't want to just blow up the unknown planet and hope the Star Forge caught the flak, they would have to defend themselves until they could circle the globe at sublight speeds, which anyways, they would be already in the range of the shield and crash.

And the Ratakan on the unknown planet still had force potential, as they did open the temple doors and such... they just don't train extensively with it anymore, since so much knowledge has been lost.

No, opening the doors was a ritual... Going through was impossible without the force. They couldn't enter the temple. And yeah some of them had the potential. Or at least it seems like that, two of them were talked about. If they really had the power or it was just a foolish hope I don't know, but it was clear that they did not yet control the force.

Then how did they perform what looked to me to be a very nontechnological ritual and suddenly a door opens? I still think it was the Force, although it probably required them to pool their Force powers to do it. Hence why they couldn't enter but they could collectively open it.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Then how did they perform what looked to me to be a very nontechnological ritual and suddenly a door opens? I still think it was the Force, although it probably required them to pool their Force powers to do it. Hence why they couldn't enter but they could collectively open it.

According to them it was an ancient ritual known only to some of the people. They said that they didn't have the force themselves. The Ritual is the only thing that could point to them being force sensitive, but they deny it themselves. I'm more inclined to believe them then to not believe them.

These are the same people who thought Revan was a god for his jedi tricks, Fishy.

I like killing the elders after you've gone into the temple, fun!

I rather enjoy betraying the elders for the second time. Talk about gullible. And then going darkside after the fight with Bastila has to be the coolest next fifteen minutes in both games.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
These are the same people who thought Revan was a god for his jedi tricks, Fishy.

Exactly, wouldn't you think that they wanted their own god? It would probably help them a lot. The elders tried to implant the force into living Rakatan, and the Tribe of the one tried to train somebody in the force. Both sides tried to give it to the one's most likely to succeed and still it didn't work (yet). Meaning that even there most sensitive force sensitive is not force sensitive enough to really be considered as a force sensitive.

That last sentence is a tongue twister.

In any case, the methods they used looks suspiciously Force related, and I haven't seen anything contrary. But then, I haven't played the game past Taris in almost a year because by then I get tired of the game.

Just listen to what they say. It pretty much explains why they can't use the force.

So then they're Red Indians with amazing unexplained powers? I don't think they understand the Force at all.

Could be, or it really could just be a ritual, unknown to all but a selected few.

They are probably like the Nightsisters in that reguard. They didn't know how to use the force except through rituals for a long time.

But that would mean they still had it, which is strange because if they had the force they should have been able to enter the damn temple.

I recall them not -wanting- to enter the temple, because of their beliefs. They had no idea what was inside.

No, I am pretty sure they new there were Sith in there.

@ Janus, they wanted to enter the temple because they could use it to destroy the Star Forge. However they never could.

@ Glentract, they didn't enter the temple in the years before that either. The Sith had been there for a year and a half at max, they would have entered it before the Sith arrived if they wanted to.

Also remember the only reason they let Revan enter is to destroy the Star Forge, he needs to do that. Its pretty much all they care about from what I gather. They would have done it themselves if they could.

Good point. Alright, so they couldn't enter the temple because of lack of Force power (Which sounds pretty stupid to me, actually. But whatever) They still did something unexplainable to open the doors.

I don't think they were afraid of the Sith in there. They were safe in their city and the savage Rakata guys could probably take them with the help of their Rancors. It seemed like there were far more Rakata than Sith.

Just curious Janus. Why don't you hate the Rakata like you hate the Yuuzhan Vong?

Why would I hate the Ratakan now?

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Good point. Alright, so they couldn't enter the temple because of lack of Force power (Which sounds pretty stupid to me, actually. But whatever) They still did something unexplainable to open the doors.

Yeah it sounds stupid they just weren't powerful enough with the force anymore. What they did was just a ritual. I don't understand it either a freaking password or something would have been easier but apparantly the guys like to do some things the hard way.

Sounds like That Plot Device(tm) at work again, really.

A real annoying little thing, isn't?

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Why would I hate the Ratakan now?

The Yuuzhan Vong and the Rakata are very similar.

You hate the Yuuzhan Vong because they don't have the force and neither do the Rakata. Actually, they both had it at one time, but they both lost it over thousands of years. The Yuuzhan Vong are very similar actually. The Yuuzhan Vong destroyed much of their own galaxy in a civil war which forced them to leave.

The Rakata almost destroyed them selves in a civil war. The Yuuzhan Vong terraformed planets. The Rakata terraformed planets. The Yuuzhan Vong once had force power, they lost it. The Rakata once had force power, they lost it. The Yuuzhan Vong had a super-powerful living force creature(Zonama Sekot). The Rakata had a super-powerful living force creature(The SF).

The Yuuzhan Vong were once almost destroyed by the species they controlled via bioenginered weapon that only affected Yuuzhan Vong(aka. Alpha Red). The Rakata were almost destroyed by the species they controlled via bioenginered weapon that only affected Rakata(The Plague). Both were vicious war-loving species.

Hmm the Rakatan are still affected by the force they just can't use the force.

There is a difference.

Actually, it's more than that. Here's why:

The Vong rely on 'organic' technology that is somehow superior to technology as we know it. This is a sci-fi trend that has absolutely NO grounding in science, even vaguely. Apparently it's just some bullshit spiel cooked up to make the Vong "different". But the point is, you are organic. Every living thing is. Do you see living things taking out tanks anytime soon? No. It'll never happen. Organic material is carbon based and is not very strong. Organic ships should not exist because living beings cannot be used instrumentally like that. They cannot propel themselves through space at superlight speeds, and they should not be able to fire anything that can harm a warship of the Republic that is made of more processed and refined shielded metal than a good sector of Coruscant. The way they are presented is ridiculous. SImply put - Organic tech < Metal/Electrical tech.

The Vong are portrayed as the main antagonists. And they are super deadly opponents to the jedi. Fine, whatever. Silly, but bring it. And then suddenly they can't be "affected" directly by the Force. This contradicts Yoda's in-movie statement, since he says "The Force is in all living things." If the Vong cannot feel the Force (even barely) then they must not be living. And if they are not living, they cannot rely on organic powers to overcome technology or even to defeat Force using jedi. This doesn't add up, just like the new "take" on the Force (read: some collection of author's ideas on how morlity works, sans GL's work) doesn't add up for shit.

And lastly, the Ratakan WERE Force users at their peak, making them instruments of the dark side. This goes with the overall theme of the SW universe. The Vong with their nonattachment to the Force and the jedi going suddenly quite grey just destroys the validity of the series, entirely.

And not to mention the Vong look really ****ing stupid.

I am pretty sure you didn't read the NJO books all of the way through so let me tell you why the Vong didn't have the force.

Zonama Sekot blocked them from it similar to what Nomi did to Ulic. They had it, but it was taken from them.

About the organic thing, I agree.

Did you just "Owned" the Vong? lol

I was showing organic technology against that crappy metal stuff.

Whatever they still weren't affected by the force. Thats freaking impossible as you should be dead the second the force isn't around anymore.

According to Yoda everything is the force, the rock the tree the air the water. Everything. IF the vong are not part of the force then they are nothing. So they should be dead.

How do you explain the Exile?

The exile still had the force he couldn't hear it anymore though, others helped him with that.

Nihilus didn't have the force but thats why he was eating to give himself the force.

Yeah, Nihilus was dying. He was not alive, he was an absence of life and the Force, and drawing on everything else to sustain himself and replace what was lost.

That was actaully taked about in the NJO books. I think they were trying to decide whether using Alpha Red and letting the Bothan's declare their Ektdjdsjoprgou(total war) would be the right thing to do from the LS standpoint because the Yuuzhan Vong aren't really alive. The strange thing is they decide they aren;t alive, but that it would be wrong to go and make a genocide of them.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That was actaully taked about in the NJO books. I think they were trying to decide whether using Alpha Red and letting the Bothan's declare their Ektdjdsjoprgou(total war) would be the right thing to do from the LS standpoint because the Yuuzhan Vong aren't really alive. The strange thing is they decide they aren;t alive, but that it would be wrong to go and make a genocide of them.

Which is stupid, and shows a lack of ethical clarity on the part of the authors. If you conclude that the Vong are not worthy of the same moral courtesy of sentients that make up the Republic and other areas, they have no rights and can be exploited entirely. Instead, this just sounds like weak justification on the part of the author to have a war but not 'seem' amoral about it, even if it is total war which is never moral against other sentient life or even really, to the ecosystem.

And that word looks like your cat got to your keyboard. Is that a real Bothan word? And if so, what dumbass author made it up?

It's not the real Bothan word. I just praticed my typing with my knees. lol. They should have kept the number of individual authors in the series down to no more than three and those three should have had to have regular conferences.

Definately. But I bet most of the authors are horrible primadonnas who want all these conscessions, and in particular, many of them also wrote for STar Trek, which is scary.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Definately. But I bet most of the authors are horrible primadonnas who want all these conscessions, and in particular, many of them also wrote for STar Trek, which is scary.

*Cough*Kathy Tyers*Cough*

Originally posted by Se7in
Yuuzhan Vong. I mean one Uro-Ik V'alh Battleship is more than a match for the Deathstar.

What the heck? That ships is nothing compared to the Deathstar.

Here's an idea: Let's find a verified certification of the ships and their respective powers.

Wait...

I bet my ass the only ships that have any kind of specs and verifiable power are the Empire's, because they're in the movies. There isn't jack shit to tell us what kind of ships the Infinite empire had, and jack shit to tell us how powerful anything else is when compared to an Imperial vessel. So... we have nothing in fact to go on, and next to nothing to infer upon... This is unresolveable, case closed.

I have read that the Uro-Ik V'alh is around 2200 meters and can be deafeated by two Star Destroyers. That they can sure destroy the Deathstar.

This one ship can take out a Death Star? How? And does it hold up to something larger then a Star Destroyer? Like the Executor or its ilk?

Two Star Destroyers can defeat it. It is the bigger brother of the Miid Ro'ik. The Miid Ro'ik can defeat a mark 1 or 2 Imperator in one-on-one, but it will be extremly damaged afterwards. A Mark 3 or 4 Imperator will defeat one in one-on-one. The Uro-Ik V'alh can take an Imperator in one-on-one will heavy damage, but still quite space-worthy. The Mark 4 Imperator is the only Imperator model that can kill it.

Janus, the Executer would waste it. It could probably take at least three of them by itself and still not have any outrageous damage. If the Imperisals still had the Eclipse, well, the Vong would be screwed.

The biggest things that Yuuzhan Vong have a Worldships. Those are heavily armed, but they aren't dedicated warships. They are generally weaker than the Executor, but their sizes are extremly different from ship to ship. One of them was 120 kilometers in diameter. Two thirds as big as the first Deathstar. The rest were closer to 10 kilometers.

There was also the Legacy of Tourment which was the Yuuzhan Vong's largest dedicated warship. I think there was only one of them. It was about equal to the Executor.

Damn. I can kinda see why they didn't fek with the IMperials. Say, you got a good link for a listing etc. of Imperial ships? I love that stuff.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Power/index.html

After reading a few pages of that, I'm convinced that the Empire has -the- edge in firepower, if nothing else. No way any Vong contraption should be able to hold up to that, reasonably. Hell, the firepower shown by the Leviathan wasn't on par with the smallest shown blasts from the Star Destroyer Avenger in ESB, as the blasts from the Leviathan could barely level a building while a Star Destroyer can basically glass a planet a meter thick all the way across, if I'm reading that right. Perhaps more. To be fair, we don't know if those are the biggest guns on the Leviathan, but really... why wouldn't they be? And the Leviathan is much smaller... it's like comparing a sloop to a man o' war. SO yeah, I stand totally corrected. F--- any opposition; Imperial vessels pwn.

And read the TPM revelations on that site. Very interesting.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/TPMRevelations/

I have some good sites.

http://hangarbay.tripod.com/td-icapital.html

what about the ancient sith empire, sure their ships could not compare to the modern day ships (does anyone know how powerful the sith empire's ships were?), but in terms of force users they would waste the empire. Could the empire stand against the sith empire (not Revan's I mean Marka's sith empire) any thoughts on this?

The Empire could take them. Naga can destroy a Star, but a Star Destroyer has the same amount of energy under it's control as a Star. Naga could probably take a few Star Destroyers, but 25,000 will overwhelm anyone.

Not jus the S. Destroyers as well, but the millions-billions? of other ships in the Empire's fleet.