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Who do you think would win?

Well, depends on who gets off the first instakill attack.

Luke wins. He just craps out a blackhole and she dies.

yeah Luke would win, he was simply made far to powerful by the NJO books to die to anyone less than Exar or Marka, he would certainly kill Traya

He'd shred her. . . Probably block her insta-kill attack and 'green-lightning' her.

I hate NJO with a passion, but Luke would still shred up Traya.

no joke

I disagree. I don't think it's that straightforward. But that's because I believe Kreia killed three jedi masters by literally ripping the lifeforce from them, making them in turn wounds.

Yes but the masters were weaker then her i THINK she can only do her instakill if she is fighting someone weaker then her

Well, you thinking does not make it so. She says and I quote; "There are techniques within the Force, against which there is no defense." then she punks three jedi masters, tosses them around like rag dolls, and zaps them to death, while keeping the Exile completely helpless. Trust me, Kreia's power is immense.

Dont get me started with NJO luke (please )

What are you saying now? Everything I quoted is KOTOR II.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
What are you saying now? Everything I quoted is KOTOR II. i know its valid but so is NJO

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Well, you thinking does not make it so. She says and I quote; "There are techniques within the Force, against which there is no defense." then she punks three jedi masters, tosses them around like rag dolls, and zaps them to death, while keeping the Exile completely helpless. Trust me, Kreia's power is immense.

Well, with this, wouldn't you be able argue Traya's victory against Revan?

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Well, with this, wouldn't you be able argue Traya's victory against Revan?
I have my doubts that Traya/Kreia would be able to defeat Revan.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Well, with this, wouldn't you be able argue Traya's victory against Revan?

I've always kinda leaned towards the fact that Kreia could beat Revan. One, he was her padawan and she understood him. Two, her powers were amazing. And three, it would be a fitting death.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
I've always kinda leaned towards the fact that Kreia could beat Revan. One, he was her padawan and she understood him. Two, her powers were amazing. And three, it would be a fitting death.

A fitting death?

Revan would come full circle, very fitting.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Revan would come full circle, very fitting.

More Jedi mumbo jumbo.

Well even if there are some attacks that can't be countered, Luke could just throw her at a star with little effort.
The guy can control gravity, one of the four major forces (non spiritual) in the universe.
However, if she managed to get it off, sorry Luke, even someone as hardcore into him as me knows he'd be takin the D in the B

Originally posted by Illustrious
I hate NJO with a passion, but Luke would still shred up Traya. I love NJO. But C'mon all Eu that happens more than 50 years before TPM just sux dude.

Originally posted by Tiberius
I love NJO. But C'mon all Eu that happens more than 50 years before TPM just sux dude. Christ Man don't be so biased. Your saying you love the Solo children more than the Ancient Sith or Revan or Exar Kun or Jesus?

Originally posted by Tiberius
I love NJO. But C'mon all Eu that happens more than 50 years before TPM just sux dude.

Not really, I love how you try to shove your opinion as law.

If they're having a convential duel with each other, then how can Luke throw a star or create a black hole without obliterating himself as well as Traya?

Originally posted by Dimmimar
If they're having a convential duel with each other, then how can Luke throw a star or create a black hole without obliterating himself as well as Traya?

SHhhh!! Don't ruin Luke's chances!

lol

I always wonder why people argue those points too.

to say LUKE IS SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO UBER HE CAN MAKE A BLACK HOLE HE CAN WHOOP ANYONES A$$

He can't make a black hole on the same planet he's on while not getting zapped to death by Kreia, and assuming he COULD make a blackhole under those circumstances, he'd die. Period. Unless NJO Luke's powers can make him survive the vacuum of space and the incredible gravity of a blackhole, in which case the NJO writers can basically kiss my ****ing ass.

Luke can control gravity he wont be sucked up

...

If he did, it would be a crime. STar Wars is already on the far edge of believable sci-fi fantasy. You make Luke the Elminster of the galaxy, and the series will become a worse joke than it is.

yea but the writers already messed up big time they can do it again

We like to call that a wedge.

what?

And doesn't he have to concentrate whilst throwing a star? He'd get cut to pieces by Traya.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Christ Man don't be so biased. Your saying you love the Solo children more than the Ancient Sith or Revan or Exar Kun or Jesus? Yes, I think these Sithstories are boring and totally not like Star Wars. That's my opinion. You have yours, fine.

Originally posted by Tiberius
Yes, I think these Sithstories are boring and totally not like Star Wars. That's my opinion. You have yours, fine.

I have to disagree with you there. But you are after all entitled to your opinion.

Originally posted by atlant80
Luke can control gravity he wont be sucked up

Uh, yeah. Gravity than crush a planet into a atom in an instant. Gravity that not even light can escspe. Nobody is that good.

Basically, this is like a 'duel' in the Wild West. Whoever gets off their insta-kill attack first wins.

Depends, Luke can't create black holes and throw stars. What are his other uber powers?

Insta-kill green lightning, Choke, various Sith powers. . . .He's a variety type, Luke.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
...

If he did, it would be a crime. STar Wars is already on the far edge of believable sci-fi fantasy. You make Luke the Elminster of the galaxy, and the series will become a worse joke than it is.

Anyone - I don't CARE who - Marka, Kun, NJO Luke, DE Sidious, or anyone - who can do the following...

1. Throw stars
2. Throw planets
3. Instantkill Force-users with the FORCE.
4. Suck the Force out of planets.
5. Use the Force to consume fleets
6. Use the Force to zap one person from one planet to another

That is TOTALLY gay. I don't know why the hell a lot of you don't seem to mind. Janus, people who can do that - ALL of them - that's too much power. Then you get into the Titans vs Greek Gods. Too retarded.

So being able to throw stars makes you homosexual? The ancient sith empire must have been the first homosexual society then.

You're right. Ignorant would be the better word to have used. I apologized for the offense. And yes, the Ancient Sith - even DE Sidious and Nihilius - have totally overexaggerated powers and abilities that are beyond the realm of understanding.

And you all want to crawl just NJO Luke? Nah, they're ALL possessed of unimaginable powers that just blow the Expanded Universe all out of proportion. I can understand being mega-powerful in the Force, but that is just ridiculous.

I can see your point about some of the Star Wars characters. Some are very powerful or overpowered.

Sorry for the sarcastic comment.

No, actually... the conditions surrounding all these characters besides Luke is more feasible.

Take Marka Ragnos. He was of a race that was incredibly Force sensitive, the Sith. He lived for what? A few hundred years? In his environment, Sith had to be very good or ended up very dead. I can see him having some considerable Force mastery, and considering that the Sith empire sat around for centuries thinking of ways to kill everything else, it would nto surprise me that they could do incredible things. It'd be nice if everyone was more even powered, but they aren't. And with the ancient Sith, this is more plausible than some human farmboy who became a jedi in a three week program, beat one lousy assed former jedi in a breathing suit, and then goes on to become the most powerful being in the world in under twenty years, surpassing Yoda! Yoda, who has lived for nine centuries. If anything, Yoda should be the most powerful jedi, period. No one else that i can recall has anywhere near his experience. No, the inconsistancy goes extreme with -Luke- being a forcegod. It's not even remotely explanable by his origins and experience and such, and NJO is a cockup of an attempt to pass off all this ridiculous bullshit.

So no, I don't have a problem with overpowered Sith. Not at all. It's what they do. If the most powerful Sith in the galaxy could only throw rocks and shock people, I would be disappointed.

I dislike some of the more powerful Sith which use their powers to keep control. I know that sentence sounds stupid and rather ignorant, but I prefer Traya and Sidious' method of keeping power. A far more manipulative and insidious method.

Same with me, Dimmimar...

It's a mindset.

Blatant, ridiculous power is something machisomistic about it. Imagine this:

Ragnos: I am top dog. All other dogs will find my urine stains everywhere. Plus, I can reach the counter. The other dogs are chihuahuas, and that chihuahua Simus is paralyzed because I was big enough to step on him. I pwn.

Now consider Sidious and Traya. This is less of a brute, dominating male-esque nature and more of a... insidious approach. It's more feminine in one way. Not taking away from the approach- it's definately equally powerful when used properly by either sex. But you get the contrast I'm implying- they are two separate takes on achieving and maintaining power. And I just tied them in with the gender thing to set off a bomb. Enjoy!

I like that like post, it made me laugh.

I disagree entirely.

Ragnos should have had a large amount of power to maintain his status for the length of time that he did. However, as with NJO Luke, there is no apparent weakness that Ragnos possesses. All Sith Lords and Jedi need to have weaknesses that their opponents can exploit.

If Ragnos is so powerful, perhaps he ought to be easily duped. Like Anakin. Anakin was very powerful. But he was reckless and easily outwitted.

Ragnos - ALL Sith - ALL Jedi - need to have a weakness. Perhaps Ragnos was allergic to cats and his enemies tossed him in a put full of them - and he died.

Not really a weakness I'd want him to have, but you get my drift.

Revan, Ragnos, NJO Luke, Kun, and all the others need to have a big weakness. If they don't, it defies the purpose of Star Wars and Ragnos would be invincible.

Me too, but that's bad because I was on the phone.

And as for the Yoda thing, I agree. Yoda had the experience as well as the raw power and connection in the Force. But going by that, he would squash Sidious and Dooku like bugs.

Sidious and Yoda represent the paragons of one another in the PT. You have Yoda - the badass of the light - and then you have Sidious - the badass of the dark. Sidious is old, but he is an infant when compared to Yoda. Yoda has around 850+ years of experience - and Sidious has about sixty.

Yet how did he manage to put Yoda to the test as he did? I'm curious as to how you think those sort of events unfolded. Should Sidious have been made an ancient man - ala the fan theory that he's hundreds of years old - or should his victory simply been a bi-product of the shift from light supremacy to dark supremacy?

Personally, Janus, how would you explain that - if you were Lucas?

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
I disagree entirely.

Ragnos should have had a large amount of power to maintain his status for the length of time that he did. However, as with NJO Luke, there is no apparent weakness that Ragnos possesses. All Sith Lords and Jedi need to have weaknesses that their opponents can exploit.

If Ragnos is so powerful, perhaps he ought to be easily duped. Like Anakin. Anakin was very powerful. But he was reckless and easily outwitted.

Ragnos - ALL Sith - ALL Jedi - need to have a weakness. Perhaps Ragnos was allergic to cats and his enemies tossed him in a put full of them - and he died.

Not really a weakness I'd want him to have, but you get my drift.

Revan, Ragnos, NJO Luke, Kun, and all the others need to have a big weakness. If they don't, it defies the purpose of Star Wars and Ragnos would be invincible.

You're missing the point here. The situation they were in REQUIRED Ragnos to be both incredibly powerful and incredibly smart. He was mentioned explicitly as both, perhaps even the best fighter in the SW Universe and the best manipulator, I wouldn't put that past him.

Why is this not overpowered? Well, it's simple. No one has ever duplicated Ragnos' feats. He is legendary amongst a legendary clan of powerful force users.

You're telling me, that with all of the power the force possesses, that if you stick a couple million hardcore, badass force users, tell them to kick, claw, chew, and kill their way to the top, that the best the unquestioned greatest Sith leader could do is throw rocks and spears? Uh huh, right.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
And as for the Yoda thing, I agree. Yoda had the experience as well as the raw power and connection in the Force. But going by that, he would squash Sidious and Dooku like bugs.

Sidious and Yoda represent the paragons of one another in the PT. You have Yoda - the badass of the light - and then you have Sidious - the badass of the dark. Sidious is old, but he is an infant when compared to Yoda. Yoda has around 850+ years of experience - and Sidious has about sixty.

Yet how did he manage to put Yoda to the test as he did? I'm curious as to how you think those sort of events unfolded. Should Sidious have been made an ancient man - ala the fan theory that he's hundreds of years old - or should his victory simply been a bi-product of the shift from light supremacy to dark supremacy?

Personally, Janus, how would you explain that - if you were Lucas?

Easily. Misfortunate hits good as well as bad, strong as well as weak. And the pendulum of balance never stays in one place for very long. Darkness did gain a foothold, but for how long? A generation, if that. And then it was swept away in a new age of rebuilding. -That's- the point... Good will always lose ground because of many things- their moral restrictions, their desire to sacrifice for goals, and their nonaggressiveness. And evil will always take advantage of those, but never truly stay put because of being arrogant and vain and blinded by power, as all the Sith turned out to be. Ragnos' reign didn't quite tip the scales because he didn't do anything with his Sith army. He sat on them and told them to stay put. It wasn't until he died that Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh opened a can of whupass on everyone and things got crazy. And they were defeated. -Despite- having amazing powers and armies, they were defeated. Because neither good nor evil can win, regardless of powers. It is the essence of conflict.

So yes, with a creative snag here or there, Lucas or any other decent person could make a scenario where a 900 year old mentor and jedi was defeated by some sleeper Sith lord. And Lucas did it very well- as ambiguous as possible, but still hinting at Yoda's great power, which was of no use to him because of his good -aligned limitations in the end.

I hope I said everything I meant to say right there, because I'm getting sidetracked here.

Best manipulator? Kreia and Sidious are the best in that category.

But I suppose you're right. Ragnos's purpose was to be vastly overpowered. Perhaps NJO Luke's purpose is to be overpowered as well, then.

And again, like Illustrious said earlier, weaknesses are relative. Just because no one found and exploited a weakness from Ragnos doesn't mean he was without one; he was just smart enough to avoid it being found.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Easily. Misfortunate hits good as well as bad, strong as well as weak. And the pendulum of balance never stays in one place for very long. Darkness did gain a foothold, but for how long? A generation, if that. And then it was swept away in a new age of rebuilding. -That's- the point... Good will always lose ground because of many things- their moral restrictions, their desire to sacrifice for goals, and their nonaggressiveness. And evil will always take advantage of those, but never truly stay put because of being arrogant and vain and blinded by power, as all the Sith turned out to be. Ragnos' reign didn't quite tip the scales because he didn't do anything with his Sith army. He sat on them and told them to stay put. It wasn't until he died that Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh opened a can of whupass on everyone and things got crazy. And they were defeated. -Despite- having amazing powers and armies, they were defeated. Because neither good nor evil can win, regardless of powers. It is the essence of conflict.

So yes, with a creative snag here or there, Lucas or any other decent person could make a scenario where a 900 year old mentor and jedi was defeated by some sleeper Sith lord. And Lucas did it very well- as ambiguous as possible, but still hinting at Yoda's great power, which was of no use to him because of his good -aligned limitations in the end.

I hope I said everything I meant to say right there, because I'm getting sidetracked here.

Misfortune? I don't know. It makes sense to me that Sidious had a strong connection in the Force. He learned a lot more in a lot less time. But yes, I suppose so. But that battle - along with his duel with Count Dooku - were probably one of Yoda's toughest.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Best manipulator? Kreia and Sidious are the best in that category.

But I suppose you're right. Ragnos's purpose was to be vastly overpowered. Perhaps NJO Luke's purpose is to be overpowered as well, then.

If Kreia and Sidious ever met Ragnos, they'd get spun around and manipulated by him, guaranteed.

I could argue SADOW is as good of a manipulator as Kreia and Sidious, what he did with the Sith was nothing short of ingenious. Yet, even Sadow was scared of Ragnos.

Originally posted by Illustrious
If Kreia and Sidious ever met Ragnos, they'd get spun around and manipulated by him, guaranteed.

I could argue SADOW is as good of a manipulator as Kreia and Sidious, what he did with the Sith was nothing short of ingenious. Yet, even Sadow was scared of Ragnos.

Doubtful. Highly doubtful, considering Sidious manipulated people on a galactic level - and Kreia nearly destroyed the Force. But I'll take your word on it.

But remember. Nothing is certain.

"Always in future, the motion is." - Yoda.

Originally posted by Darth_Nefarus
Well even if there are some attacks that can't be countered, Luke could just throw her at a star with little effort.
The guy can control gravity, one of the four major forces (non spiritual) in the universe.
However, if she managed to get it off, sorry Luke, even someone as hardcore into him as me knows he'd be takin the D in the B

You cannot throw a star at someone in a conventional duel without obliterating yourself!

Calm down now... He can't hear you, and he never will.

And DS, when Sidious manipulates a planet full of Sith not to kill him, he will be damn good. But he failed to keep Anakin underwraps thanks to his arrogance that he could turn Skywalker or that Anakin would allow him to kill his son.

where does Nefarus go? He was here regularly; then he left for a long time; then he came back for about a week before disapering again.

I just hate it when people list throwing stars as an attack in a conventional duel!

Okay, look.

I know precious few of you share my appreciation for Palpatine and what he did. Most of you - the vast majority of you - consider him to be a two-bit politician with no worthwhile skills. I understand that, when you admire other Sith Lords - like Ragnos, Malak, Kun, and Revan.

But Sidious IS a damn good manipulator. Perhaps he is not quite on the level of the overpowered EU Sith Lords (they need a book on Ragnos) - but what he did was GREAT. I don't care what you say. The Empire was the most powerful tyrannical regime in the history of the galaxy. That came from the Star Wars databank. Sure he was damn arrogant. If he hadn't, he'd likely still be ruling the galaxy.

But do you remember Master Yoda - whom you think should be the most powerful Jedi outside of NJO Luke? Sidious used him. He kept his identity secret from Yoda, and the entire Jedi Order, and occupied a damn PLANET with them.

And you think that's NOT good?

*Chucks a star at her*

zOMG! pwn3d u lol roflalor,amncuieo!!!@!@#

Like that?

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
But do you remember Master Yoda - whom you think should be the most powerful Jedi outside of NJO Luke?

Yoda is good, but Hoth and Vodo easily come close to him.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Okay, look.

I know precious few of you share my appreciation for Palpatine and what he did. Most of you - the vast majority of you - consider him to be a two-bit politician with no worthwhile skills. I understand that, when you admire other Sith Lords - like Ragnos, Malak, Kun, and Revan.

But Sidious IS a damn good manipulator. Perhaps he is not quite on the level of the overpowered EU Sith Lords (they need a book on Ragnos) - but what he did was GREAT. I don't care what you say. The Empire was the most powerful tyrannical regime in the history of the galaxy. That came from the Star Wars databank. Sure he was damn arrogant. If he hadn't, he'd likely still be ruling the galaxy.

But do you remember Master Yoda - whom you think should be the most powerful Jedi outside of NJO Luke? Sidious used him. He kept his identity secret from Yoda, and the entire Jedi Order, and occupied a damn PLANET with them.

And you think that's NOT good?

Actually I would call the Infinite Empire the most tyrannical regime in the history of the galaxy.

Pfah. The Infinite Empire. That's another damn thing. Why, oh WHY, can't the EU and movies actually consist with one another?

Look. Palpatine has about a dozen (exaggerating) superweapons at his disposal.

Now, it's a stretch saying that the Star Forge could best the Death Star. But if you implement the Tarkin or the Sun Crusher along with the Death Star - the Star Forge is owned.

Yes. OWNED. It won't be able to make more than two ships before the Empire's superweapons blast it into smithereens.

Agreed. DS, it never helps to mindlessly parrot the words of a website that is hotly debated as not being updated, verified, or even consistant within itself. From a certain point of view, I could argue that any regime was more tyrannical. And it would be an opinion. But for it to be a stance in a debate, it must have grounding in fact. And if you intend to argue the point that Sidious' regime was THE most tyrannical, you must prove up. From what I know, the Ratakan regime was much worse. And lasted much longer.

That's rather presumptious. It automatically assumes that the Empire will have superweapons in range of the Star Forge first.

We can debate this further on another topic.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Pfah. The Infinite Empire. That's another damn thing. Why, oh WHY, can't the EU and movies actually consist with one another?

Look. Palpatine has about a dozen (exaggerating) superweapons at his disposal.

Now, it's a stretch saying that the Star Forge could best the Death Star. But if you implement the Tarkin or the Sun Crusher along with the Death Star - the Star Forge is owned.

Yes. OWNED. It won't be able to make more than two ships before the Empire's superweapons blast it into smithereens.

I already argued this to you on another thread; obviously you don't listen very well.

The Death Star took thirty minutes to orbit a gas giant to get into position to fire upon Yavin. You have no idea of its maximum amount of blasts, or even how long the reload time is. You have nothing to indicate that it even uses hyperspace, really. Now, the Star Forge under the control of -one- Force user made a fleet of warships that swept through and easily contested more than half of the Old Republic space. Being operated by at least an inner circle of potent Force users I can only imagine.

The point is, you can't argue conclusively that the Empire could wipe out the Ratakan Empire because the latter's strength isn't measureable at this time. I thought "infinite empire" might have tipped you off there.

The Republic lasted the longest. It must have been the greatest. lol

The GE has two Deathstars, a Deathstar Prototype, the Tarkin, Sun Crusher, World Devastators, Galaxy Gun, Eclipse 1 & 2, Orbital Nightcloaks, the Eye of Palpatine(the first GE superweapon), and the Nostril of Palpatine(just kidding). Reguardless, the GE is to capable,

Infinite, lololololol!11!11

You mean that sideways 8? zOMG PWNED!

Sid's Empire was the most tyranncal, accrding to the official site...

Again, parroting the official site is stupid. The site authors are obviously not GL himself, and their poorly written character profiles should reflect this.

Reasons, man. Prove up.

Janus is right.

hes rarely not

Oh, not this discussion again. . .

wtf?

Boy you have some attitude. . . where is this 'WTF?' coming from? I said that I don't want another 'which group is better' discussion, seeing as how its on about three or four other threads right now.

ohh i thought you meant something else sorry